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<v Speaker 1>Listen, all you New Yorkers.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't taxi.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, they were looking around. This is the 77 WABC minicast.

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<v Speaker 3>It's in the hands of the jury now, the Lindsay

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<v Speaker 3>Clancy case. Everybody across America is talking about this. The

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<v Speaker 3>woman who killed her three young kids. And it comes

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<v Speaker 3>down to sort of a battle of the experts, mental illness,

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<v Speaker 3>a whole bunch more. And joining us now to talk

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<v Speaker 3>about all of this, who better, John, than Dr.

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<v Speaker 4>Mark Siegel?

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<v Speaker 2>Dr.

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<v Speaker 3>Siegel, what do you think? I'm sure you were watching

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<v Speaker 3>this case and everybody's wondering how could somebody, it looks like,

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<v Speaker 3>plan before, during, after, and then now they're also saying

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<v Speaker 3>she was psychotic. That's part of her defense. Explain this

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<v Speaker 3>from a mental perspective.

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<v Speaker 2>I've been covering this case for weeks now, so I'll

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<v Speaker 2>boil it down for you. First of all, The defense

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<v Speaker 2>was saying a cocktail of medications and poor health care. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>the medications don't really play a major role here, actually, unless.

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<v Speaker 2>There's two that she was on at the very end,

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<v Speaker 2>Remeron and Trazodone, that could cause psychosis. But she was

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<v Speaker 2>being monitored for that and hadn't shown signs of it.

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<v Speaker 2>So theory one from the defense is psychosis, some overbearing,

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<v Speaker 2>commanding voice telling her to kill her children, coming out

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<v Speaker 2>of the blue because it wasn't something she had for months,

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<v Speaker 2>like Andrea Yates. That's the defense position on this. And frankly,

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<v Speaker 2>all of their evidence on this is false. is forensic.

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<v Speaker 2>It's after the fact. It's not something that was put

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<v Speaker 2>forth by her providers that were taking care of her,

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<v Speaker 2>but they say the providers did a poor job. The

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<v Speaker 2>prosecution today actually finally made a really strong case in

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<v Speaker 2>closing arguments, saying that she was hiding her plan, that

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<v Speaker 2>she didn't feel like she was suicidally depressed, but she

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't end her own life until she got her kids

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<v Speaker 2>out of the way. They called them like broken toys.

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<v Speaker 2>And so she was not valuing them properly, had to

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<v Speaker 2>get them out of the way, didn't want them to

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<v Speaker 2>see each other as she ended them. Really horrific. And

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<v Speaker 2>then felt free to commit suicide herself. So they feel

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<v Speaker 2>the prosecution carefully planned crime with the husband told, don't

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<v Speaker 2>come home, go to the CVS pharmacy. I think that

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<v Speaker 2>as the case has gone on, it's gone more for

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<v Speaker 2>the latter, the prosecution's view. The other was like women's

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<v Speaker 2>health is being overlooked, women's mental health is being overlooked.

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<v Speaker 2>For sure, that's true, Rita. And, you know, postpartum depression overlooked,

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<v Speaker 2>postpartum psychosis almost never discussed. And she didn't get great

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<v Speaker 2>medical care. But I think the case is moving more

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<v Speaker 2>and more in the direction that this was a crime. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>it's Massachusetts, so all bets are off.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think all bets are off. And I said

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<v Speaker 4>it before to Rita that I think that they should just,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, not convict her as a criminal, but put

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<v Speaker 4>her in a mental health institution and see how things,

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<v Speaker 4>how do they say it, things sort themselves out.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me tell you, John, one quick thing about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Andrea Yates was put in a mental hospital and it

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<v Speaker 2>ended up being totally the right move because she suffers

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<v Speaker 2>and grieves every day for her children and has tried

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<v Speaker 2>to do charity work. And when they've tried to release her,

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<v Speaker 2>she's refused to be released. The biggest concern is, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>that somebody goes home in two years, but should not

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<v Speaker 2>Andrew Yates. So I think that you're right, that a

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<v Speaker 2>mental hospital is the right setting for this, provided that

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<v Speaker 2>the person stays there.

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<v Speaker 4>Governor Patterson has two cents to put in.

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<v Speaker 1>So, Mark, was there any fitness to proceed hearing before

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<v Speaker 1>this trial started? Because, you know, back like 40 years

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<v Speaker 1>ago when I worked in one of these DA's offices,

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<v Speaker 1>Almost immediately, the defense would have the alleged perpetrator tested

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure. And if the psychiatrist determined that this

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<v Speaker 1>person doesn't understand the charges made against them and can't

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<v Speaker 1>assist with their own defense, they do send them to

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<v Speaker 1>a mental hospital.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a really important point, Governor, that nobody has brought up.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that that would have been proper in

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<v Speaker 2>this case because we can't even tell. The theory on

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<v Speaker 2>this is, by the way, that she had a temporary

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<v Speaker 2>psychosis with the voice telling her what to do and

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<v Speaker 2>that now she's not having that. But all jurors' eyes

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<v Speaker 2>are on her in the trial looking how she's responding

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<v Speaker 2>to all of this. But so in other words, she

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<v Speaker 2>would have probably been deemed fit to stand trial because

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<v Speaker 2>as opposed to Andrea Yates, who drowned her children, the

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<v Speaker 2>voice stayed for months. With her, it was reportedly or

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<v Speaker 2>allegedly a transient voice. But fitness to stand trial is

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<v Speaker 2>definitely something that should have been brought into play here,

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<v Speaker 2>but wasn't.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I have just a question. Getting into the

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<v Speaker 3>whole psychosis issue, Dr. Siegel, because it is fascinating. Today,

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<v Speaker 3>the prosecution, I was watching some of the closing arguments.

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<v Speaker 3>They talked about how she sent her husband out to

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<v Speaker 3>a pharmacy, and they were kind of alluding that she

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<v Speaker 3>wanted him to go longer so he would be gone

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<v Speaker 3>longer to do this. So there was a lot of planning.

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<v Speaker 3>It looked like just very organized thought at the time.

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<v Speaker 3>and obviously the crime is horrific. It's so just shockingly horrific.

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<v Speaker 3>But to your point, and then in the case, the doctors,

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<v Speaker 3>the voices, she only heard it during this time, right?

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<v Speaker 3>She never heard it before. She never heard it after.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, just from your professional, can somebody have that

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<v Speaker 3>just for those 20 minutes or 15, 20 minutes and

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<v Speaker 3>then go back to seeming to be more normal?

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<v Speaker 2>It can happen. It's much less likely than with Andrea

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<v Speaker 2>Yates where it goes on for months, but it can happen.

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<v Speaker 2>But your point about organization and literally putting the children

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<v Speaker 2>in separate rooms so they wouldn't see it happening to

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<v Speaker 2>the other child or sending the husband out, that speaks

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<v Speaker 2>more for premeditation. That's what the prosecution is saying. I

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<v Speaker 2>think what John is saying is no matter which is true,

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<v Speaker 2>suicidal depression versus postpartum psychosis, whichever is true, she's a

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<v Speaker 2>severely mentally ill woman that should be in a hospital.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what John is saying, I believe.

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<v Speaker 4>I truly believe that because there's got to be a

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<v Speaker 4>loose screw if she did it and it's horrible. As

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<v Speaker 4>long as she could stay there. Listen, I see how

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<v Speaker 4>mothers love their children.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean— And for her to— if it was her that

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<v Speaker 4>did it, there's got to be a loose screw.

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<v Speaker 3>And also, you know what's interesting? And this is interesting

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<v Speaker 3>to John's point. By all accounts, from what I've heard,

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<v Speaker 3>she seemed to have been a loving mother. Like, that's

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<v Speaker 3>what is interesting through all of this. I just hope

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<v Speaker 3>if she ends up in a mental institution, she never

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<v Speaker 3>gets out.

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<v Speaker 2>By the way, the idea of being a loving mother

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<v Speaker 2>goes to the psychotic idea of something called altruistic infanticide,

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<v Speaker 2>where she was taking the children to heaven with her.

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<v Speaker 2>That would be the psychotic delusion that she could have

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<v Speaker 2>been suffering from, horrible as that is. That's very common

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<v Speaker 2>in these situations.

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<v Speaker 3>It's just shocking. Three kids under the age of five.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow. Well, Dr.

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<v Speaker 3>Siegel, let's see what the jury does. We love having

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<v Speaker 3>you on, doctor. Thank you very much. You get your perspective.

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<v Speaker 2>Very disturbing case. We've discussed it well, but wow, is

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<v Speaker 2>that horrible. Horrible. As John says, we're here to protect

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<v Speaker 2>our children.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you for your common sense, Dr. Siegel. Thank you.