Speaker 1: Hello.
Speaker 2: I'm Josh Crockett from Oregon City, Oregon, and I play
Speaker 2: at Stone Creek Golf Course.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Golf Smarter. Hi.
Speaker 2: This is Bob Lawiki from Westernville, Ohio, and I play
Speaker 2: at Darby Creek Golf Course. This is Golf Smarter number
Speaker 2: one thousand and twenty seven.
Speaker 1: The essential difference between a mindful state of mind and
Speaker 1: a chaotic state of mind is called meta awareness. Meta
Speaker 1: awareness would be imagine that your normal consciousness is the
Speaker 1: flashlight beam. Imagine there's a smaller flashlight bolted to the
Speaker 1: big flashlight, and the purpose of the beam of light
Speaker 1: coming from the small flashlight is to always focus on
Speaker 1: where the big flashlight beam of light is focusing. So
Speaker 1: you always know where am I paying attention right now
Speaker 1: in this moment, And if it turns out you're paying
Speaker 1: attentions in a bad place, a place that could trigger
Speaker 1: a yet for example, or a flinch or just a
Speaker 1: poorly time release. If you recognize my mind goes to
Speaker 1: a place that then triggers a breakdown in the mind body,
Speaker 1: or just a bad swing is a result when my
Speaker 1: mind wanders off, knowing that that mind wandering off is
Speaker 1: the main cause or even the only cause of a
Speaker 1: bad swing can be of great help because now you
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to learn from your mistakes.
Speaker 2: Rules of the road to understanding how consciousness works in
Speaker 2: creating a better mental game.
Speaker 1: With Jim Waldron. This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips
Speaker 1: and insights from great golf minds to help you lower
Speaker 1: your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host,
Speaker 1: Fred Green.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Golf Smarter podcast.
Speaker 1: Jim, thanks man, really appreciate being here for my one
Speaker 1: million appearance.
Speaker 2: That's always the beginning of these episodes, like figuring out
Speaker 2: how many times Jim Waldron has been. It's probably in
Speaker 2: the thirty something range. I think we discussed the last time.
Speaker 1: Somebody's going to remember.
Speaker 2: That's the number of the tounds familiar to me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's interesting. We didn't do thirty six holes. But you know,
Speaker 2: but but since the beginning of our podcast time, you've
Speaker 2: become quite prolific, and you've done more than thirty seven
Speaker 2: podcast episodes with a lot of people, haven't you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm getting invited pretty much. I get at least
Speaker 1: about one invitation a week the last year, from some
Speaker 1: really interesting ones, including kind of what we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about today. There's a whole other sub genre in
Speaker 1: the podcast world that you may not be familiar with,
Speaker 1: but has to do with people who are interested in
Speaker 1: the nature of human consciousness. So there's a consciousness community
Speaker 1: on the Internet.
Speaker 2: And then there's golf consciousness community.
Speaker 1: No, there's not really a golf conscious there's more what
Speaker 1: you've been doing. There's a golf mental game community. But
Speaker 1: what I wanted to talk about this is kind of
Speaker 1: this is kind of a main thing that I've been
Speaker 1: interested in, not just as a golf coach for the
Speaker 1: last forty years I've been doing it, but even since
Speaker 1: I was a very young child, I was always fascinated
Speaker 1: by the nature of consciousness, and I want to go
Speaker 1: in I think that would be a good topic today
Speaker 1: because I think the big critique I have of traditional
Speaker 1: mental game instruction in sports psychologies particular even just general
Speaker 1: you know, Western psychotherapy, is it's too much based on
Speaker 1: what I call Shuldhism, which is the story we tell
Speaker 1: ourselves to get ourselves sort of what to get our
Speaker 1: mind wrapped around, you know, the nature of improved psychological performance.
Speaker 1: But the big missing link historically has been lack of
Speaker 1: actual pragmatic execution. Yeah. Do that makes sense? Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And you know the word should have could it right? Yeah? Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean everybody kind of knows. If anybody who's been
Speaker 1: a golf mental game podcast junkie like you and me,
Speaker 1: we're all kind of saying the same thing. You know.
Speaker 1: The experts are pretty much in agreement on the major
Speaker 1: points about what the ideal psychological state is. Right. The
Speaker 1: question is how do you go from a very anxious, nervous,
Speaker 1: stressed out, neurotic psychological state to a calm, emotionally stable,
Speaker 1: confident state of mind. And that's the part where I
Speaker 1: think traditional approaches are sorely lacking because they don't understand
Speaker 1: that the essential nature of consciousness and good for us,
Speaker 1: there is a body of knowledge that's been around for
Speaker 1: twenty five hundred years, which is the Buddhist tradition. The
Speaker 1: Buddhists were the original, were the world's original psychotherapists, and
Speaker 1: it's the entire Buddhist tradition when it comes to trying
Speaker 1: to understand or explain the nature of the human mind,
Speaker 1: is based on empirical observation. It's not based on theory,
Speaker 1: meaning Buddhist monks spend sixteen hours a day in the
Speaker 1: meditative state of mind, and when they're dreaming, a lot
Speaker 1: of them practice something in the West is called lucid dreaming.
Speaker 1: They're meditating when they're dreaming. So these are people who
Speaker 1: spend the bulk of their day observing how the mind works. Right,
Speaker 1: So we can learn a lot from that tradition, especially
Speaker 1: the mindfulness aspect of it.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm distracted in the sense that you know,
Speaker 2: the Buddhist monks don't play golf. That it's easier, I
Speaker 2: have found for me. And this has been a tough
Speaker 2: year for me for golf because I've not played as
Speaker 2: much as I like to play, because we've just been
Speaker 2: busy with family and travel and blah blah blah. And
Speaker 2: so I have found for me that when things aren't
Speaker 2: going well on the golf course. But let's put it
Speaker 2: this way, when things are going well on the golf course,
Speaker 2: it's very easy to get into a positive, flowing state.
Speaker 2: But when you know, as the round progresses and you
Speaker 2: have an issue that becomes reoccurring, whether it be missing
Speaker 2: three foot putts multiple times, whether it be chunking off
Speaker 2: around the fringes of the green, which is my issue.
Speaker 1: And I work on it.
Speaker 2: I work on it, and I work on it, and
Speaker 2: I feel really good and confident and positive, and I
Speaker 2: go to the golf course and I hit it eight inches.
Speaker 2: I mean it's like I just chunk behind it. So
Speaker 2: when that happens multiple times, it's very difficult to calm
Speaker 2: yourself down, to get into a like, oh, just like,
Speaker 2: look at the trees, appreciate where you are, feel grateful,
Speaker 2: just breathe, I mean, all those things I do.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, In fact, it actually makes it worse because
Speaker 1: now you have a set of behaviors you're supposed to
Speaker 1: be expressing right, and you're utterly failing to do all
Speaker 1: that sports psychology recommended stuff. So that makes you feel
Speaker 1: even worse. Yes, that's the essential dilemma from a Buddhists
Speaker 1: point of view. To keep it real simple, a there's
Speaker 1: a type of suffering that human beings experience, which is
Speaker 1: sometimes called in the Buddhist tradition secondary suffering or reactive suffering,
Speaker 1: which basically means when life presents a problem to you
Speaker 1: in the external world, how do you react to that
Speaker 1: external world situation can create unnecessary suffering sow is, there's
Speaker 1: sort of required or necessary suffering because of the nature
Speaker 1: of human existence, right that we don't get our way
Speaker 1: all the time, and we don't we don't have one
Speaker 1: hundred percent freedom, and we don't have you know, we're
Speaker 1: not God's We have limitations that the physical world presents
Speaker 1: to us. But then there's how we react to that
Speaker 1: type of suffering. The original suffering become turns into reactive suffering,
Speaker 1: and then that begs a question, well, is there anything
Speaker 1: you can do to lower that reactive suffering? And the
Speaker 1: answer is absolutely, from a Buddhist point of view, absolutely
Speaker 1: yes there is, which but it means you have to
Speaker 1: do the work. You have to do some type of
Speaker 1: psychological hygiene practice the way you do physical hygiene terms
Speaker 1: of working out or dental hygiene, brushing your teeth. I
Speaker 1: believe everybody should be doing at least one form of
Speaker 1: daily mindfulness practice just to maintain basic psychological health. Yeah,
Speaker 1: pretty important.
Speaker 2: I would think that reactive suffering is just a euphemism
Speaker 2: for golf. Yeah, what are you gonna do today? Hey babe,
Speaker 2: I'll be back in a couple hours. I'm gonna go
Speaker 2: do reactive suffering.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what tells that a lot of money to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you choose to do this, yes, yes, as
Speaker 2: often as I possibly can.
Speaker 1: So I've developed a system that's kind of a step
Speaker 1: by step series of principles about the nature of consciousness.
Speaker 1: And when people understand that and start to do the work,
Speaker 1: that's when I start to see a pretty rapid and
Speaker 1: big increase in their psychological performance, whether it's on or
Speaker 1: off the golf course. Yeah. And the first one is
Speaker 1: the first step, or the first stage, is to understand
Speaker 1: the nature of normal consciousness, meaning normal consciousness would be
Speaker 1: someone who's never done any type of mindfulness practice, right.
Speaker 1: And there's various aspects of normal consciousness, but I'm just
Speaker 1: going to go over a couple of the really big ones.
Speaker 1: One is random chaos. In Buddhism, that's called monkey mind,
Speaker 1: meaning your mind is constantly churning. It doesn't like to
Speaker 1: be at rest, it doesn't like to be stable. It
Speaker 1: always wants to be moving at pretty high rates of
Speaker 1: speak thoughts, entering, leaving judgments, conclusions. There's this constant churning mass.
Speaker 1: It's sometimes described as a in Buddhist philosophy, right, like
Speaker 1: a like a like a class three rapid river with
Speaker 1: different abjects floating in the surface, and you're in the
Speaker 1: river and you don't know how to swim. This is
Speaker 1: the basic depiction of sort of you know, baseline human suffering,
Speaker 1: and you're trying to keep your head above water, and
Speaker 1: what do you do to to not drown in the
Speaker 1: in the river of suffering and mental chaos? Right, And
Speaker 1: so the idea is, uh, there's a way to basically
Speaker 1: find a way to basically keep your head above water
Speaker 1: so you don't drown, and then eventually learn how to
Speaker 1: swim a little bit and then eventually swim over to
Speaker 1: the bank of the river, climb climb up on the
Speaker 1: bank and sit and watch the river go by. That's
Speaker 1: that would be more of a more of an advanced
Speaker 1: state of mindfulness practice. You got to start somewhere, and
Speaker 1: so that that type of practice in the Buddhist tradition
Speaker 1: is called samata or translating from power or censort to English,
Speaker 1: that means concentration or narrow focus. Yeah. Okay, So if
Speaker 1: you think of if you think of awareness or consciousness,
Speaker 1: which is often described not just Buddhist tradition, but most
Speaker 1: major religions and systems of psychotherapy will will describe consciousness
Speaker 1: as a beam of light. Yeah. And the beam of
Speaker 1: light has three sizes or modes, which are a search
Speaker 1: light super wide, yeah, and then a medium wide, and
Speaker 1: then very narrow. So narrow would be like a like
Speaker 1: a quarter inch diameter laser beam. Think of it like
Speaker 1: that versus the big mind that super wide would be
Speaker 1: like a search light. And so what you're doing in
Speaker 1: early stages and mindfulness practices, you switch on narrow mode
Speaker 1: by focusing intensely on just one small thing, which we
Speaker 1: call the focal point. And there could be any number
Speaker 1: of things and golf, it could be the target picture,
Speaker 1: for example, or it could be the feeling of grip pressure. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In sittying meditation, it's usually feeling your belly move in
Speaker 1: and out with your breath. Yeah. The exercise I start
Speaker 1: all my students with is a real simple one called
Speaker 1: candle flame concentration. So you when you're not stressed and
Speaker 1: when you're not tired, you sit in a dimly lit room.
Speaker 1: You light a candle, put it on your coffee table,
Speaker 1: sit on the couch or the chair, set your phone
Speaker 1: alarm for two minutes, and the goal is to simply
Speaker 1: pay attention to the flickering candle. Flame without having any
Speaker 1: internal psychological reaction to it, and without your mind wandering
Speaker 1: off going somewhere else, which you know sounds easy fread,
Speaker 1: but it's really really difficult.
Speaker 2: God, God, it would be painful for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because again, the essential nature of the monkey mind
Speaker 1: is it doesn't like to stay on one thing. It
Speaker 1: likes to flip back and forth from one one focus
Speaker 1: of attention to another.
Speaker 2: I am very familiar with monkey mind. I live it,
Speaker 2: and I'm very familiar with the term because it's very
Speaker 2: hard for me to stay focused on anyone, especially you know,
Speaker 2: in a short period of time, an intense period of time.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Another aspect of it is when you start to meditate,
Speaker 1: not only do you realize you actually have a much
Speaker 1: Everybody experiences this, It's universal. Everybody who meditates for the
Speaker 1: first week of doing it properly, by the end of
Speaker 1: the week they're like stunned at how out of control
Speaker 1: their mind is. So I call that your mind has
Speaker 1: a mind of its own. It doesn't want to stay focused. Right.
Speaker 1: But there's another aspect of normal human consciousness, which is
Speaker 1: that we have way less free will or choice than
Speaker 1: we think we do. In other words, again, there's an
Speaker 1: involunte even though we call it conscious mind, because what
Speaker 1: we're talking about is amenable, it's accessible to consciousness, right,
Speaker 1: So you can be aware of your thought patterns, for example.
Speaker 1: But the fact that you can be aware of what's
Speaker 1: going on in your conscious mind sort of mental space,
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that you have a high degree of control
Speaker 1: over it so very much. So we're human beings. Are
Speaker 1: not too dissimilar to the famous Pavlovs dogs experiment where
Speaker 1: the dogs were trained, through what's called operate conditioning, to
Speaker 1: salivate when they hear a bell ring. Have we heard
Speaker 1: of that? So there was real reactive creatures. We're not
Speaker 1: primarily rational creatures, which is the big mistake of the
Speaker 1: European Enlightenment philosophers who thought we were primarily rational. We're
Speaker 1: primarily emotional creatures, and we're primarily storytelling or myth creating creatures.
Speaker 1: We're not primarily logical, irrational creatures. So that's the second
Speaker 1: thing you realize when you do early stages of mindfulness
Speaker 1: practice that you're kind of like the dog. When the
Speaker 1: bell rings, you react. So when you triple bogie your
Speaker 1: first hole and around the golf and you got about
Speaker 1: a one or two minute walk to the next tee.
Speaker 1: That's your opportunity to start to start salivating, so to speak,
Speaker 1: because you just messed up the first hole, right, So
Speaker 1: now you start going to the reactive suffering where you
Speaker 1: beat yourself up. You have this intense conversation with yourself
Speaker 1: while you're walking to the second tee, right, and that
Speaker 1: all that does is make the likelihood of your second
Speaker 1: of your key shot on the second hole being as
Speaker 1: bad as the first hole that you messed up. Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, for me, it's like when I when I
Speaker 2: have that triple bogie on the front where you watching
Speaker 2: me play yesterday, It's like, Okay, that's out of my system.
Speaker 1: Now let's move on. Well, that's the right way to
Speaker 1: frame it, correct, That's that's how a Buddhist monkly frame it.
Speaker 1: But most people don't do that. They go into what
Speaker 1: we call the ego drama and they feed it.
Speaker 2: Right, it's like, oh, this is gonna be a really
Speaker 2: long day.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I can't believe you know.
Speaker 2: It's like they think that that's going to dictate the
Speaker 2: rest of the round.
Speaker 1: You could burn you the next five hole. Nobody knows
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. Everything. The nature of physical reality,
Speaker 1: in fact, it's called the fourth dimension is time. We
Speaker 1: live in a three dimensional universe spatially, and then time
Speaker 1: is the fourth and the essential nature of time is
Speaker 1: this moment has never happened before, it will never happen
Speaker 1: in the future. The present moment is completely unique and
Speaker 1: at the level of human psychology, the past has no
Speaker 1: influence over your ability to perform this shot.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I was telling somebody that this week I
Speaker 2: was playing and he hit a ball left and he goes,
Speaker 2: I do that every time on this whole I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh boy, do we have to talk like it has
Speaker 2: nothing to do with this shot? Your history has nothing
Speaker 2: to do with your next shot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we call that the myth of psychological momentum. The
Speaker 1: physical momentum is real the level of the body, clearly,
Speaker 1: the past influence is the present. Be injured yourself, like
Speaker 1: I always use. Tony Finow a few years ago to Augusta,
Speaker 1: he sprained his ankle in the Wednesday Part three contests.
Speaker 1: Somehow he was still able to play and he actually
Speaker 1: made the cut, but obviously he didn't play as well
Speaker 1: as he could have. So past loses the body, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't influence the mind ironically, Fred, unless you believe
Speaker 1: it does due to the power of what we call
Speaker 1: in psychotherapy the as if principle, or the power of belief.
Speaker 1: So if you believe the past has some external, actual,
Speaker 1: objective force that's affecting you your ability to perform mentally now,
Speaker 1: then ironically it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: objectively it doesn't have an influence at all. And yeah,
Speaker 1: so those first two steps to read. By the way,
Speaker 1: did you know that close to ninety five percent of
Speaker 1: people who learn at least classical beginner level Buddhist meditation
Speaker 1: quit by the end of thirty days. They don't stay
Speaker 1: with it. It has a worse track record than weight
Speaker 1: loss programs.
Speaker 2: Wow, from what meditation does.
Speaker 1: Yeah, most people will not get to most average people
Speaker 1: will not even make it to thirty days. But the
Speaker 1: problem is you don't get the benefit. Generally speaking, you
Speaker 1: get almost no benefit until you reach the thirty day mark.
Speaker 2: Well then then doesn't that make sense and why people
Speaker 2: believe it's like working for me?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well no, only that. Again, it's painful to realize
Speaker 1: I'm more like a dog reacting to a bell that
Speaker 1: tinkling more reactive than I thought I was. I have
Speaker 1: less free will, less personal autonomy than I used to think,
Speaker 1: and my mind is like, it's like, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like the monkey mind thing. I got this out of
Speaker 1: control mind. And so it's painful to have those two
Speaker 1: insights about the nature of normal consciousness. But it's also
Speaker 1: a mistake, obviously in my view, to quit. I think
Speaker 1: if you could stick it out and get through the
Speaker 1: beginning of the second month, particularly if you're doing sitting meditation,
Speaker 1: which is designed to be insanely boring on purpose, if
Speaker 1: you can get over that first thirty days, that's when
Speaker 1: the magic starts to happen. You get the benefits. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and again the main benefit is you start to create
Speaker 1: much more mental clarity and much more emotional stability, so
Speaker 1: less negativity, less negative emotions, more positive emotions, less stress.
Speaker 1: You become less reactive to stressful situations, and you become
Speaker 1: much better at the ability to focus your attention. And
Speaker 1: that's when the goods things start to happen. In terms
Speaker 1: of golf performance.
Speaker 2: Well, and I see that personally. I consider golf and
Speaker 2: my swimming, which is my exercise besides walking. Golf courses
Speaker 2: is a moving, moving, meditation.
Speaker 1: M yeah, that's right, me too, That's what I do.
Speaker 2: And yeah, and to me, that's the preference I can.
Speaker 2: I can move and focus and do that versus just
Speaker 2: sitting and staring at a candle right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well candle flame is actually easier than sitting
Speaker 1: because the reason why the candle flame is easier for
Speaker 1: people is because it's always it's it never flickers the
Speaker 1: same way. There's a newness, there's a novelty to the
Speaker 1: movement of the candle flame, right yeah, yeah, meditation, And
Speaker 1: once you start to focus the sensations coming from your
Speaker 1: belly as it moves in and out with your breath,
Speaker 1: after you kind of lock in on it, maybe five
Speaker 1: or six seconds later, you suddenly realize, well, this is
Speaker 1: the same sensation pretty much every time. It's not fundamentally different,
Speaker 1: and your mind goes, this is insanely boring. I'm going
Speaker 1: to go I'm going to leave my belly and go
Speaker 1: up into my head space where the thoughts stream is
Speaker 1: and entertain myself by thinking about something pleasant that happened
Speaker 1: yesterday or that might happen a week from now. And
Speaker 1: the problem with that is then you then you start daydreaming,
Speaker 1: you get lost in the thoughsterream, You get lost in
Speaker 1: your thoughts, and now you're doing the opposite of what
Speaker 1: you should be doing when you're meditating, right, You're you're
Speaker 1: feeding the thoughtstream. You're feeding the monkey might when you
Speaker 1: do that. So the whole point of it is to
Speaker 1: get out of your head, get out of your headspace,
Speaker 1: and into your physical body by focusing on the sensations
Speaker 1: coming from your body when you're inhaling and exhaling. Right,
Speaker 1: But how to learning how to accept boredom and overcoming it,
Speaker 1: seeing boredom as it interesting challenge that should be overcome
Speaker 1: and not run away from. You know, this constant need
Speaker 1: to entertain ourselves is in itself a form of neurosis. Right,
Speaker 1: There's never been a more entertainment entertainment industrial complex society
Speaker 1: than modern America in the twenty first century. We've we've
Speaker 1: got it. We've got a movie theater in our back pocket,
Speaker 1: your phone. We can constantly, we can constantly distract ourselves
Speaker 1: using the internet, right, yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And And the other thing that I find absolutely fascinating,
Speaker 2: since we're very good at bouncing all over the place
Speaker 2: on these conversations, the thing that I find really fascinating
Speaker 2: is that because of that library movie theater in your
Speaker 2: back pocket. Younger generation, I've noticed people I interact with
Speaker 2: don't value the elder's experience and wisdom that we've gathered
Speaker 2: over decades of life. Yeah, because they're like, well, I
Speaker 2: don't need to ask you. I'll just ask Google, or
Speaker 2: I'll go on Chad GPT and have a conversation and
Speaker 2: get all the wisdom of the world ever recorded in
Speaker 2: my answer.
Speaker 1: I won't.
Speaker 2: I don't need your your thoughts anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that's a bit. It's a problem socially, it's
Speaker 1: a big cultural and social problem. I think we're going
Speaker 1: to start to see I think it's already starting to happen.
Speaker 1: We're starting to see a little bit of a movement
Speaker 1: away from the more toxic aspects of the Internet. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it's going to keep growing with with AI
Speaker 1: coming on strong. But we're gonna see more and more
Speaker 1: of a reaction to I hope, maybe not full on
Speaker 1: ludite like I've been most you know, but maybe semi ludite.
Speaker 1: We'll see, we'll see how it goes.
Speaker 2: Okay, Jim, you allow me always to get to tracted
Speaker 2: in topics, which kind of shows you how good I
Speaker 2: meditation stuff. So I can't even keep a conversation going
Speaker 2: without changing the topic more than once.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but we need to make this relate.
Speaker 2: To golfers who are frustrated and struggling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is golfers. Yeah, no doubt, yeah and yeah.
Speaker 1: So my point of all this is that there's in
Speaker 1: a really baseline simple way, when I work with a
Speaker 1: new student on some of this mental game and mindful
Speaker 1: of stuff, it comes down to do they understand the
Speaker 1: difference between the internal world versus the external world? So
Speaker 1: this is called I've came up with this theory forty
Speaker 1: years ago I called the two worlds theory, which is that, again,
Speaker 1: a big part of Buddhism is that we coexist, not
Speaker 1: literally simultaneously, but pretty much potentially simultaneously. We live in
Speaker 1: two different worlds at the same time. There's the physical
Speaker 1: world that science studies, also known as the external world
Speaker 1: or also known as reality. Right. Your body is part
Speaker 1: of that world, although most people don't think of their
Speaker 1: body as part of it. It is that your body
Speaker 1: exists in the physical world. Right. Then you have a
Speaker 1: private psychological space, sometimes referred to in philosophy as subjective
Speaker 1: world or internal world, right, And one of the principles
Speaker 1: of the two world theory is that there's a massive
Speaker 1: wall of separation between those two worlds. They're literally like
Speaker 1: oil and water. They do not mix in reality. Now
Speaker 1: there's a subjective belief that they kind of intermingle, but
Speaker 1: that's because people who have that belief just aren't paying
Speaker 1: attention because they don't meditate. Right. But when you start
Speaker 1: to meditate, you realize I can't be in my internal,
Speaker 1: private psychological headspace and paying attention to the external world
Speaker 1: which flutes my body at the same time. I can
Speaker 1: only be one of those two worlds in terms of
Speaker 1: my flashlight being, so to speak. Again, if you think
Speaker 1: of consciousness as a beam of light coming from a flashlight,
Speaker 1: the flashlight beam is either pointed externally on the physical world,
Speaker 1: including your body at the level of kinesthetic or feel awareness,
Speaker 1: or it's inward and you're paying attention, you're paying to
Speaker 1: your private subjective psychological space. Another principle of this, which
Speaker 1: is really a big one from the Buddhist perspective is
Speaker 1: this might be the biggest one, I think in the
Speaker 1: history of Buddhists thought what Buddhism, what the the experience
Speaker 1: of Buddhist monks who spend a lot of time what's
Speaker 1: studying their mind is is that when you're in your
Speaker 1: psychological headspace, paying attentions to thoughts, memories, hopes, fears, fantasies
Speaker 1: of the future, forming beliefs, conclusions, mental pictures, all of
Speaker 1: that stuff fundamentally that state that psychologie logical stake. Functionally,
Speaker 1: this is equivalent to dreaming at night, meaning there's a
Speaker 1: made up aspect to it. It's kind of like we
Speaker 1: don't need to put a headset on, like the oculus
Speaker 1: set set that Microsoft has to go into a digital
Speaker 1: simulation world. We have a biological capability to create a
Speaker 1: digital so to speak, simulation world, and it's the private
Speaker 1: psychological space we're talking about. We already have that. But
Speaker 1: from a psychological suffering standpoint, one of the primary reasons
Speaker 1: why we suffer psychologically, the secondary, the reactive suffering, is
Speaker 1: we take everything that takes place in our private psychological space,
Speaker 1: we give it as much credibility as we do the
Speaker 1: physical world, and in most people today, they give it
Speaker 1: more credibility than the physical world, which is stunning when
Speaker 1: you think about it because again, everything that takes place
Speaker 1: in that private psychological space has an aspect of what
Speaker 1: is called symbolic consciousness. If you think of do you
Speaker 1: know anything about art history? Have you ever studied any
Speaker 1: art history? No? Okay, So there was a movement in
Speaker 1: the early twentieth century. There was a Dadaist movement and
Speaker 1: a Surrealist movement in art, and like the famous Salvator Dahali,
Speaker 1: you know, the Spanish painter, it looked like dreamscapes. Right.
Speaker 1: So the purpose of sort of the social purpose, the
Speaker 1: underlying meaning to both the dataists and the surrealistic movement
Speaker 1: in art history was to help people wake up, to
Speaker 1: differentiate the clear distinction between a symbol compared to the
Speaker 1: reality that the symbol points to. And when you're in
Speaker 1: symbolic consciousness, there's a conflation between the symbol and the reality.
Speaker 1: So you know the old phrase, this was a big
Speaker 1: slogan back in the sixties, the map is not the territory. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a map is a map. A map is not the
Speaker 1: same thing as the actual physical landscape that the map represents,
Speaker 1: right right, And a word is not the same thing
Speaker 1: as the object in the physical universe. So if I
Speaker 1: say the word flower, right, And after I say the
Speaker 1: word in my private headspace, I then go into internal
Speaker 1: visual mode and I picture a flower. So the word
Speaker 1: flower is not the same thing as an actual flower,
Speaker 1: and a visual image of a flower in my head
Speaker 1: space is not the same thing as an actual flower.
Speaker 1: There's there's a fundamental difference between the word flower or
Speaker 1: picturing flower and an actual flower. Right. So, anytime you're
Speaker 1: talking to yourself, if you're doing what's called verbal thinking,
Speaker 1: where you hear your own voice in your head using language,
Speaker 1: or anytime you're picturing something in your mind's eye visually functionally,
Speaker 1: that's the same thing that happens when you're asleep at night,
Speaker 1: when you're dreaming, you're engaging in symbolic consciousness. And in
Speaker 1: both cases, when you're dreaming until you finally wake up
Speaker 1: and go, oh, I must be having a nightmare, and
Speaker 1: then you wake up. But until the moment you sort
Speaker 1: of realize I must be dreaming, people don't think of
Speaker 1: it as a dream. They think of it as being real,
Speaker 1: right when you're in normal dreaming, right and in normal consciousness.
Speaker 1: People take everything that takes place in their private psychological
Speaker 1: space way too seriously, way too credibly. So Therefore, if
Speaker 1: an average person suddenly had a series of very negative
Speaker 1: thoughts come into consciousness, like disturbing, highly negative thoughts, they
Speaker 1: will react to those thoughts as if the situation the
Speaker 1: thoughts are depicting was actually happening right now, when in
Speaker 1: the point of fact, they might have happened twenty years ago,
Speaker 1: but you'll experience it as being almost as real as
Speaker 1: the original of that twenty years ago. But if a
Speaker 1: Buddhist monk had a thought of something that happened twenty
Speaker 1: years enter his mind, he would think, oh, that's interesting,
Speaker 1: I wonder why I'm thinking about that, and then he
Speaker 1: would let it go. He wouldn't have any emotional or
Speaker 1: psychological reaction to that shain of thought. Zero. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: that's kind of where we're going, where we should be going.
Speaker 1: I think as metal game coach is more about get
Speaker 1: down to the nitty gritty the application, less about the ideal,
Speaker 1: more about how do I actually do something pragmatic to
Speaker 1: get to the ideal state? Right right?
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the whole point here, and the
Speaker 2: theme of your conversation is understanding how consciousness works to
Speaker 2: improve the golf mental game.
Speaker 1: So how do we.
Speaker 2: Reel it back in to our golf game.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well again, it comes down to when you
Speaker 1: start to start, when you get your sort of foothold
Speaker 1: through some type of daily meditation practice. There's many different
Speaker 1: forms of meditation, but as long as you're doing something daily,
Speaker 1: you'll start to notice what's called detachment or non attachment
Speaker 1: and Buddhist philosophy, which means in the past, when a
Speaker 1: negative thought chain would enter your head or a negative
Speaker 1: emotion would enter your body, you would start reacting to
Speaker 1: it like, oh, I don't like this feeling. I wish
Speaker 1: I wasn't feeling scared now on the first ted because
Speaker 1: people are watching me, right. But when you meditate on
Speaker 1: a regular basis, you may notice those feelings of nervousness
Speaker 1: or performance anxiety. But because there's less attachment to the
Speaker 1: negative thoughts and the negative emotion, the emotion of fear,
Speaker 1: Because you're less absorbed into the negativity, there's a sense
Speaker 1: of what is called psychological space between the negative thought
Speaker 1: or the negative emotion and your sense of personal identity.
Speaker 1: Once you have that sense of space, the intensity level
Speaker 1: of the negative thoughts and the negative emotion goes way
Speaker 1: down to a more manageable level. Jim, you lost me.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I don't know where you're going.
Speaker 2: And I and I'm struggling to figure out how to
Speaker 2: make this relevant to what I'm struggling with when I'm
Speaker 2: playing golf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got you. Well, Because again, this is something
Speaker 1: you have to experience because otherwise it's just more symbols
Speaker 1: that are going in people's ears. Okay, yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: It has to be a lived experience. So when you meditate, right.
Speaker 2: So you're so you're advocating medicaid, medication, meditation and medication maybe,
Speaker 2: but you're advocating.
Speaker 1: Meditation. Just take the drugs, need to mas. There we go,
Speaker 1: Let's get back to the sixties.
Speaker 2: We had it right the first time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it so lives experience. So what I can
Speaker 1: just tell you what I can talk about my personal experience,
Speaker 1: but I can also many thousands of people I've taught
Speaker 1: how to meditate over the last four years. This is
Speaker 1: a known thing in the meditation sort of the mindfulness
Speaker 1: community that after about a month of doing some form
Speaker 1: of daily mindfulness practice, everybody reports this. This is a
Speaker 1: universal experience. I feel less wrapped up in my neurosis.
Speaker 1: I feel less captured by You know, when people have
Speaker 1: a really neurotic mindset, they often describe it as I'm
Speaker 1: walking down the street and it's a beautiful sunny day
Speaker 1: and next thing I know, a dark cloud passes over,
Speaker 1: and the next thing I know, I'm inside a tornado
Speaker 1: and there's powerful winds sucking me up into the sky.
Speaker 1: With someone's having a very powerful negative psychological experience, both
Speaker 1: mentally and emotionally. That's people often describe it as like
Speaker 1: being stuck inside a tornado, where the fear, the stress,
Speaker 1: the anxiety, the depression, the anger, and all the mental
Speaker 1: chaos that surrounds it is so overwhelming that you feel
Speaker 1: that you're it's like consuming you, that you're inside of it. Right,
Speaker 1: But when you meditate, it's like the tornadoes a mile
Speaker 1: away and you're here safe on the side of the road,
Speaker 1: and you're noticing the dark clouds and the tornado, but
Speaker 1: it's so far away you don't feel threatened by it
Speaker 1: because you're not actually threatened by it. That's what happens.
Speaker 1: That's called detachment or non attachment.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm assuming you meditate regularly.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I've been doing it since I was ten
Speaker 1: years old. I'm seventy four and now I've been doing
Speaker 1: it for sixty four years. Daily different daily, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: not just daily. I do it all the time. For it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll just tell you a story about it. But here's
Speaker 1: my question.
Speaker 2: And you're gonna plow, You're gonna floor on this one.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: So you're talking about how come all these you're talking about,
Speaker 2: how meditation can really help you get through all these
Speaker 2: challenging elements of your life and carry you through it.
Speaker 2: How come you're you do the exact thing you're saying
Speaker 2: not to do whenever you get near your computer.
Speaker 1: Gotcha, Jimmy, that's the game polling effect, right.
Speaker 2: It's like we every time we want to record, it's
Speaker 2: like forty five minutes of trying to get you online,
Speaker 2: and we just like, forget it. We'll just do this
Speaker 2: on the phone like we're doing today. We're just we'll
Speaker 2: just make it easy. But you know, you're you're talking
Speaker 2: a good game, and then you do this.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, No, that's a whole other, that's a whole
Speaker 1: that's an apple. That's what's the great the monual compon
Speaker 1: call it categorical error. Those are apples and oranges. Okay, totally.
Speaker 2: So I've now, you know, like I've been doing morning
Speaker 2: stretch morning yoga for for decades myself, and now just
Speaker 2: recently I've started doing this at night before I go
Speaker 2: to sleep. I'll do twenty ten to twenty minutes of
Speaker 2: yoga just to see if I can fall asleep faster
Speaker 2: and stay asleep.
Speaker 1: And it's been helping me a lot. Cool.
Speaker 2: But this is we're not that's not meditation. This is
Speaker 2: completely different then it can be.
Speaker 1: Basically, meditation has two main aspects. These are most Buddhist
Speaker 1: scholars would agree with you, and we want to say
Speaker 1: that and there and they're developmental and their sequential. There's
Speaker 1: a sequence to it, which is a get back to
Speaker 1: the analogy of the raging river that you're trying not
Speaker 1: to drown in. Right, that's the normal state of conscious
Speaker 1: So samata practice means narrow focus on one thing or concentration.
Speaker 1: The positive practice means your mind's in big mode, super
Speaker 1: wide modes. It means it basically means the positive means
Speaker 1: big empty mind, but it also means the insights that
Speaker 1: you can gain about the nature of consciousness and the
Speaker 1: nature of the physical world when you're in that big
Speaker 1: empty mind. But my view, and again most scholars would
Speaker 1: agree with this, is that you can't learn and you're
Speaker 1: kind of wasting your time doing the possitive practice until
Speaker 1: you do samata practice first, which narrow focus will eventually
Speaker 1: lead to the ability to have a bigger focus, you know,
Speaker 1: a wider awareness, but without having chaos, whereas again a
Speaker 1: normal consciousness where you haven't done any practice. Most people
Speaker 1: most of the time are in medium wide or even
Speaker 1: super wide mode, and their mind is full of all
Speaker 1: kinds of thoughts and emotions. It's just a casual chaos.
Speaker 1: So the analogy in Buddhism again is to the beam
Speaker 1: of light. Right, So if you think of a flashlight being,
Speaker 1: so consciousness is the being. But imagine that the lens
Speaker 1: cover covering you know, where the bulb, where the actual
Speaker 1: flashlight bulb is, has got a lot of dirt on it, right,
Speaker 1: And so part of Buddhists practice is you're trying you're
Speaker 1: trying to make the beam of light brighter and clearer
Speaker 1: and stronger by removing the impediments that you know, the
Speaker 1: dirt that's covering the lens. Yeah, that's one aspect, and
Speaker 1: I'll give you an actual story. My son and I
Speaker 1: traveled to northern Burma in twenty twelve. We were doing
Speaker 1: a three month trip all throughout Southeast Asia, mainly hanging
Speaker 1: out with monasteries with monks, and there were three hermits
Speaker 1: living in a cave in the foothills of the Himalaya
Speaker 1: Mountains in northern Berner were borders Tibet and one. It
Speaker 1: was about an eight mile hike to get up there,
Speaker 1: up the mountain trail, but my son tie and we
Speaker 1: went up and we hiked up there. I wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to him, and I talked to the head guy,
Speaker 1: who spoke fluent English, and I said, well, tell me
Speaker 1: what the life of a cave monk is like. What
Speaker 1: do you guys do all day? And of course I
Speaker 1: knew what they do. They read Buddhist scriptures and they
Speaker 1: meditate all the time. And I said, well, what do
Speaker 1: you like about it? He goes, Jim, Here's the thing,
Speaker 1: he goes, I've been a Buddhist monk for fifteen years.
Speaker 1: I've been a cave monk for five and the main
Speaker 1: benefit of what I do here is I have a
Speaker 1: very clean mind. He used the word clean to describe
Speaker 1: his awareness, his beam of luck. I mean he's been
Speaker 1: working on removing the dirt that's blocking the light right.
Speaker 1: Another aspect of it is the ability to have a
Speaker 1: measure of control, and this is the most important one
Speaker 1: for golfers. You have to be if you want to
Speaker 1: play your best, if you want to be good at
Speaker 1: the mental game, you have to have the ability to
Speaker 1: direct the beam of light where you choose to direct
Speaker 1: it and hold it there at least for a few seconds.
Speaker 1: That's the skill of focused attention. You have talked to
Speaker 1: me and my buddy Carl Morris, we've talked about this
Speaker 1: on his podcast. He's been on your podcast talking about this.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the skill of focused attention. You have to
Speaker 1: be able to hold that flash flight in your hand,
Speaker 1: so to speak, and hold it on any object. You
Speaker 1: put it on a you know, you put it on
Speaker 1: target picture, for example, and you hold it there for
Speaker 1: a few seconds. And again, with normal consciousness, that's not
Speaker 1: a thing you're going to be able to do. With
Speaker 1: normal consciousness, You'll start out holding it there and half
Speaker 1: a second later, it'll instinctively the flashlight will move in
Speaker 1: your hand and go somewhere else, and you'll lose focus.
Speaker 1: And that's why the skill of focused attention is so
Speaker 1: important in the met game, you know, m So, what
Speaker 1: are the rules of the road we've been discussing. These
Speaker 1: are some of them. There's there's there's a whole bunch.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, can we build Is it possible to bullet
Speaker 2: point this or is it just the long conversation?
Speaker 1: I mean, we started with the two worlds theory. I
Speaker 1: think that's probably the You need to be able to
Speaker 1: understand that you can't be in the external world. You
Speaker 1: can't be paying attention to the external world and your
Speaker 1: internal world at the same time. It's either it's one
Speaker 1: or the other. That you can't be both right on
Speaker 1: the holding the attention one is another big one. The
Speaker 1: three sizes, the super wide, the medium wide, the narrow
Speaker 1: is another another one which we should talk about. Is
Speaker 1: this might be the most important one. Uh. The essential difference,
Speaker 1: even more essential than what I already mentioned between a
Speaker 1: mindful state of mind and a chaotic state of mind,
Speaker 1: is that the modern term we've used that you and
Speaker 1: I have talked about this the podcasts called meta awareness.
Speaker 1: Meta awareness would be imagine that your normal consciousness is
Speaker 1: the flashlight beam. Imagine there's a smaller flashlight bolted to
Speaker 1: the big flashlight, and the purpose of the beam of
Speaker 1: light coming from a small flashlight is to always focus
Speaker 1: on where the big flashlight beam of light is focusing,
Speaker 1: so you always know where am I paying where am
Speaker 1: I actually paying attention right now in this moment. And
Speaker 1: if it turns out you're paying attentions in a bad place,
Speaker 1: a place that could trigger a yip for example, or
Speaker 1: a flinch, or just a you know, like a poorly
Speaker 1: timed tempo or a poorly time release. If you recognize
Speaker 1: my mind goes to a place that then triggers some
Speaker 1: type of a breakdown in the mind body connection, or
Speaker 1: just a bad swing is the result when my mind
Speaker 1: wanders off. Right, knowing that that mind wandering off is
Speaker 1: the main cause or even the only cause of the
Speaker 1: bad swing can be a great help because now you
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to learn from your mistakes. But when
Speaker 1: someone lacks meta like let's say, let's keep it real simple,
Speaker 1: let's someone's the typical golfer mid the high handicapper comes
Speaker 1: over the top generally speaking, right, most people do so
Speaker 1: that things their path is out to end, and if
Speaker 1: they don't compensate by changing the face angle, they hit
Speaker 1: the ball left right like a dead pull. If that's
Speaker 1: their flaw and they're trying to figure out how to
Speaker 1: fix it, but they're not actually aware in the moment
Speaker 1: of how it is that their body creates the over
Speaker 1: the top move. If they're not aware of it, even
Speaker 1: if I show them on video, if I say, Joe,
Speaker 1: here's you come on over the top, blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: it's just it's just a waste of time. They're not
Speaker 1: going to they're not going to learn anything. They're not
Speaker 1: going to be able to stop coming over the top.
Speaker 1: They have to be aware of how it is in
Speaker 1: the moment that the flaw is happening. How is this
Speaker 1: flaw manifesting in my body? When you can feel it,
Speaker 1: when you can experience the flaw happened with a with
Speaker 1: a measure of mental clarity, you know again the beam
Speaker 1: of light idea, and you know that you know that
Speaker 1: this is how you come over the top, then there's
Speaker 1: a chance you can start to break through and stop
Speaker 1: doing the flow. Can we talk about some other forms
Speaker 1: of practice besides the candlelight? Sure, Okay, you'll like this one.
Speaker 1: I think as you mentioned swimming, because I do the
Speaker 1: same thing when I every day and twice a day.
Speaker 1: When I'm in Hawaii in the winter, I swim in
Speaker 1: the Pacific Ocean, and you talk about so I focus
Speaker 1: on the feeling in my body of me doing the
Speaker 1: breaststroke as my preferred stroke. So I'm I'm literally my
Speaker 1: consciousness is feeling my muscles contract and move my arms
Speaker 1: and my legs as I'm swimming. I'm not thinking about anything.
Speaker 1: I'm feeling the sensations coming from my body doing doing
Speaker 1: the swimming stroke. Right. There's some there's a similar one
Speaker 1: that's a little bit probably easier to understand, but it's
Speaker 1: phoned walking meditation, right, and walking meditation. I always console
Speaker 1: my students do like a fifteen minute walk or longer,
Speaker 1: but at least fifteen minutes daily around your neighborhood by yourself.
Speaker 1: You won't work if you're talking of somebody else, won't
Speaker 1: work if you if you have a dog on the leak.
Speaker 1: So it's got to be by yourself. But what you
Speaker 1: do is every you look at you look at an
Speaker 1: object in the fist. So you look at a tree
Speaker 1: and you look at it for about two to three
Speaker 1: seconds max. And you simply notice the size, tolerant shape
Speaker 1: of the object you're looking at. And when I say notice,
Speaker 1: I don't mean going internal and hearing a voice in
Speaker 1: your head say, oh, that's that's a point. That's a
Speaker 1: black trunked pine tree with green needles. That would be
Speaker 1: that would be going internal and having an internal reaction.
Speaker 1: I mean simply pay attention with your eyeballs, with external
Speaker 1: visual and notice into in two to three second time interval,
Speaker 1: notice something about the tree, then switch and look at
Speaker 1: the next object and look at a car parked down
Speaker 1: the street and notice that it's a red camry, and
Speaker 1: then look at someone walking towards you. So every two
Speaker 1: to three seconds, you're shifting your gaze with your eyeballs
Speaker 1: to a different physical object in the world. And the
Speaker 1: goal is to stay external the whole time. And this
Speaker 1: is why you don't want to look fred for more
Speaker 1: than about three seconds, because if you look at any
Speaker 1: object for more than three seconds, most people will automatically
Speaker 1: go internal and start thinking about the object. Wow, right,
Speaker 1: they get triggered by it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. If you don't look for more than two to
Speaker 1: three seconds, you're less likely to go internal and start
Speaker 1: having a thought reaction to the thing you were looking at.
Speaker 1: So that's a powerful way to get to get to
Speaker 1: kind of get your foot in the door in terms
Speaker 1: of mindfulness practice. Yeah. Interesting. Another one is and you
Speaker 1: can well you can you can plan going to down
Speaker 1: to Baja this year. Are you going down there a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks? Oh? Perfect. So if you sit on
Speaker 1: this east you sit on the beach, and this is
Speaker 1: I call this wave meditation. So you listen to the
Speaker 1: sound of the wave breaking on the shoreline, and you're
Speaker 1: in this case, you're in one hundred percent external auditory channel,
Speaker 1: so you're you're only paying attention to the sound of
Speaker 1: the waves crashing with your ears. And of course there'll
Speaker 1: be a moment where there's no sound at all, There'll
Speaker 1: be an empty space in between the waves, right, so
Speaker 1: you'll hear like.
Speaker 2: And then and then one of my all time favorite sounds.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, me too. I go to sleep at
Speaker 1: it night because I'm where I live in Hawaii's right
Speaker 1: on the beach. Perfect. So that's that's that's using sound
Speaker 1: as a as an anchor for your mind. So you're
Speaker 1: in narrow focused mode, just paying attention to the sound
Speaker 1: of the wave and in the shore. That's another great one,
Speaker 1: sort of beginning level of meditation practice mhm uh as always.
Speaker 2: It's balance Point golf dot Com with Jim Waldron and
Speaker 2: your website is you've definitely done some work on it.
Speaker 2: This is great. I can see that and it lists
Speaker 2: all the different podcasts you've been on and will we
Speaker 2: golf Sport gets mentioned in there too, you're yeah, but
Speaker 2: you also have in your little pro shop area. You've
Speaker 2: got a lot of new videos. This is all new
Speaker 2: for you.
Speaker 1: No, it's not that new. Haven't talked about it before.
Speaker 1: Those have been around. Well, yeah, because you have a
Speaker 1: lot of work. The newest one is going to hopefully
Speaker 1: be out probably junior July.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's twenty six, Yeah, next year.
Speaker 1: I'm working on short game stuff. But it's I've been
Speaker 1: so busy teaching because I have to do some of
Speaker 1: the basic editing myself, and then I a student of
Speaker 1: mine from New Zealand does he does. He does the
Speaker 1: ball of the editing, but I have to kind of
Speaker 1: get it lined out for him. I've been so busy teaching,
Speaker 1: I had to put it on hold. But I think
Speaker 1: I'll have some time starting the spinner to work on it.
Speaker 1: So when are you going to retire? You know, I
Speaker 1: love what I do so much, Fred, I just the
Speaker 1: whole idea of retirement doesn't make sense to me. I
Speaker 1: love what I do, and I'm helping people anyway. For the YIPS, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I'm getting more and more people with YIPS.
Speaker 1: In fact, I've had I've had three people so far
Speaker 1: this week contact me with YIPS. It's getting me be
Speaker 1: the global pandemics. So between the YIPS stuff and just
Speaker 1: general metal game, but I also do a lot of
Speaker 1: swing instruction. I do a ton of short game instruction,
Speaker 1: short game mechanics, so I've been it's been very, very
Speaker 1: busy for sure.
Speaker 2: That's great, buddy, that's great. I'm so happy to hear it. Well,
Speaker 2: it's as always, it's great to talk to you. It's
Speaker 2: always an education that takes us to places we don't
Speaker 2: usually think about when we're playing golf, and I think
Speaker 2: this is really important information.
Speaker 1: So thanks man. Yeah, great, Well, thanks for having me on, Fred, really,
Speaker 1: and thanks again for having me on for all these years.
Speaker 1: I think it was two thousand and five, so this
Speaker 1: is a twenty years we've been doing it. Yeah. Pretty cool,
Speaker 1: pretty cool journey with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and of you as well, my friend yeah, thanks
Speaker 2: your friend.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm