1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,520
Speaker 1: Good morning, Maggie. How are you doing today?

2
00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:03,560
Speaker 2: I'm doing all right. How are you Erow?

3
00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:05,599
Speaker 1: Absolutely fantastic. I got to tell you right here from

4
00:00:05,639 --> 00:00:08,240
the very beginning why I'm so fascinated with your podcast,

5
00:00:08,279 --> 00:00:11,640
and it's because my wife's mother was found in a closet.

6
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:13,839
Except she wasn't like Sandy who was tied up. She

7
00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,120
had transitioned. And the thing is that I study podcasts

8
00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,640
like yours because I want to gain the confidence, I

9
00:00:20,679 --> 00:00:22,920
want to gain everything that I need to do so

10
00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:24,760
that I can be like a Liz and try to

11
00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,519
help find answers before my wife passes on and and

12
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,839
basically goes to the grave realize, you know, hopefully with

13
00:00:30,879 --> 00:00:33,920
an answer and not like, well, we don't know, it's

14
00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:34,640
a shutcase.

15
00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:38,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think we all that's what we

16
00:00:38,679 --> 00:00:42,240
all hope for, right is to have answers and closure

17
00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,560
versus the ever ending questions that could plague you for

18
00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:47,520
the rest of your life.

19
00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:49,399
Speaker 2: Like that's what we all want, right Arrow.

20
00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, how did you step into this and how especially

21
00:00:52,119 --> 00:00:53,920
when it comes to that connection with Liz, because I

22
00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:55,560
mean she's a little sleuth as it is. I mean,

23
00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,079
that's what I love about journalism. And people trying to

24
00:00:58,079 --> 00:01:01,320
solve crimes today. There are no politics around you. You

25
00:01:01,439 --> 00:01:03,439
just go in, you get the information.

26
00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:07,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, because you know, once you see facts

27
00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:12,640
and evidence, the facts and evidence still lie. So I

28
00:01:12,799 --> 00:01:15,239
got into this, and Liz and I have a pretty

29
00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,560
unique connection in that, you know, the very first podcast

30
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,840
I ever did was about my dad, and after he died,

31
00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,359
I inherited like one hundred and fifty cassette types of

32
00:01:26,359 --> 00:01:29,280
phone calls between him and this guy in the Philippines

33
00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,760
name this American guy. So I decided I wanted to

34
00:01:34,799 --> 00:01:37,400
know what happened to my dad, why he lost all

35
00:01:37,439 --> 00:01:40,400
this money. So I decided I wanted to go and

36
00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:42,840
fly to the Philippines and meet my dad's con artists.

37
00:01:42,879 --> 00:01:46,359
So I think there were parts of Liz's story that

38
00:01:46,439 --> 00:01:49,280
I could understand. You know, I do not understand what

39
00:01:49,319 --> 00:01:51,000
it's like to lose a parent in the way that

40
00:01:51,079 --> 00:01:53,799
Liz did at all. But I know what it's like

41
00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,599
to lose your dad at a young age. I know

42
00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,280
what it's like to rifle through paperwork to how this

43
00:02:00,359 --> 00:02:03,959
question lingering about how my dad could fall for something

44
00:02:04,079 --> 00:02:07,280
like this and try and get an answer to it.

45
00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,000
And you know, I think Liz and I both sort

46
00:02:11,039 --> 00:02:14,879
of connected in this aspiration of being two daughters who

47
00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,879
just want to figure out what happened to our late fathers.

48
00:02:18,599 --> 00:02:20,960
Speaker 1: So then when it comes to locating those answers this

49
00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:22,800
this is one of my burning questions as I listened

50
00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,400
to your podcast, Hands Tied, and that is, how do

51
00:02:25,439 --> 00:02:29,000
you find the answer realizing it could be just another assumption.

52
00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,680
Speaker 2: That's a great question, and I think, you know, I think.

53
00:02:33,479 --> 00:02:36,319
Speaker 3: That what everybody has to ask themselves, from lawyers to

54
00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,639
investigators to journalists. You know, I think at least I

55
00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,639
can talk from my own experience, not Liza's experience. I

56
00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,080
think for me, it was very hard to separate who

57
00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,319
I thought my dad was versus like who you know

58
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,919
he was in terms of these phone calls, in terms

59
00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,000
of this scam. And I think you kind of have

60
00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:00,680
to try, and I don't know if humans are actually

61
00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:02,960
able to do this one hundred percent, but you just

62
00:03:03,159 --> 00:03:06,840
try to get rid of any bias or any preconceived

63
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,000
or trying to make this person be who you think

64
00:03:10,039 --> 00:03:12,719
they are. And I think that's the weird thing that

65
00:03:12,759 --> 00:03:15,960
I'm grateful for, at least in my own project, is

66
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,039
I know my dad three sixty five. Now I know

67
00:03:19,199 --> 00:03:20,919
the best parts of him and I know the worst

68
00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,360
parts of him, and that makes him more human to me,

69
00:03:23,479 --> 00:03:25,960
and you know, I love him all the same.

70
00:03:26,319 --> 00:03:26,520
Speaker 2: Man.

71
00:03:26,599 --> 00:03:28,560
Speaker 1: That scares a bit Gebi's out of me because I

72
00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,520
don't have cassette tapes in that way. I've got radio

73
00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,840
air checks. But my daily writing of thirty two years though.

74
00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:35,840
I mean, I guess after I'm gone, they're going to

75
00:03:35,879 --> 00:03:37,039
come in here and they're going to see who I

76
00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:37,599
really am.

77
00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:39,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, what secrets do you have?

78
00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,479
Speaker 1: Air? I don't know, but it's in the book. If

79
00:03:41,479 --> 00:03:42,360
you want to read it.

80
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, send it over. I'll start reading it.

81
00:03:46,319 --> 00:03:49,000
Speaker 1: Well, let's break down Liz Milgard. Let's find out who

82
00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:50,960
she is and why she has that drive.

83
00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

84
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,159
Speaker 3: So from a very young age, you know, I think,

85
00:03:55,199 --> 00:04:00,639
like a lot of young people, teenagers, a lot of

86
00:04:00,639 --> 00:04:03,199
people now who probably want to listen to Hands Tiede,

87
00:04:03,599 --> 00:04:06,840
have a deep interest in true crime. And Liz always

88
00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,919
was really fascinated in true crime.

89
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:09,199
Speaker 2: You know.

90
00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,840
Speaker 3: She explained her childhood bedroom and it just had books

91
00:04:12,879 --> 00:04:16,920
upon books of you know, different serial killer psychology, and

92
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,839
she really wanted to go to school and study what

93
00:04:20,199 --> 00:04:23,560
made serial killers serial killers. She wanted to study criminal

94
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,079
psychology and get to know like what was in their

95
00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,480
brains and how it gets them to act this way. So,

96
00:04:30,959 --> 00:04:35,560
you know, with Liz, she really went from being curious

97
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,920
about true crime studying to then unfortunately being thrust into

98
00:04:39,959 --> 00:04:43,879
having to live a true crime story. She found out

99
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,199
about it while she was in England and then had

100
00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,959
to fly all the way to Texas where she heard

101
00:04:48,959 --> 00:04:51,319
that her dad was killed and her mom was found

102
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,920
in a closet with her hands and feet tied, and

103
00:04:53,959 --> 00:04:56,839
then she immediately had to jump into investigator mode, but

104
00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,839
in a weird way. Luckily, since she studied so much

105
00:05:00,879 --> 00:05:04,279
about true crime, she knew sort of how to navigate it.

106
00:05:04,399 --> 00:05:08,639
She was able to kind of shift her brain into

107
00:05:09,079 --> 00:05:12,639
this investigator mode where she knew what to ask the

108
00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,399
police for, she knew not to touch evidence, she knew

109
00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,759
how to look for evidence that could be pertinent to

110
00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,519
the case. You know, she really really transformed and became

111
00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,160
a full fledged investigator and still is. Honestly, to this day,

112
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,120
she is still working tirelessly on this case.

113
00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,519
Speaker 1: This fascinates me so much what you and Liz do,

114
00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,480
and the reason why is because you go into this

115
00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,319
investigation without you know, having to go by the book,

116
00:05:37,319 --> 00:05:39,560
as they say. In fact, Bill Cunningham last night said

117
00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,160
on its National show that crime isn't down, We just

118
00:05:42,199 --> 00:05:45,120
have fewer police doing jobs. They're not hiring and they're

119
00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,240
not going in that direction. So therefore I'm relying on

120
00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,439
people like yourself, Maggie. You're the one that's going to

121
00:05:49,519 --> 00:05:51,360
uncover a story and we bring it forward.

122
00:05:52,879 --> 00:05:54,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's like anything.

123
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,600
Speaker 3: Multiple eyes I think are always a good thing because

124
00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,879
you know, as we were kind of talking about before,

125
00:06:00,959 --> 00:06:03,920
it it's hard to not have biased So if you

126
00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,160
have a bunch of other people looking at something, then

127
00:06:07,439 --> 00:06:10,360
someone else can spot something. Somebody else might see some

128
00:06:10,519 --> 00:06:14,199
detail that seems important, someone else might call out something

129
00:06:14,199 --> 00:06:17,720
that you missed before. So I think also there's just

130
00:06:17,959 --> 00:06:21,000
the enthusiasm that a lot of true crime people have

131
00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,120
where they just want to pour over every single case document,

132
00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:30,360
every single court document. And you know, a lot of investigators,

133
00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,399
there's a lot of great ones out there, of course,

134
00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,800
but you know they have tons and tons and tons

135
00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:36,759
and tons of cases that they're trying to solve.

136
00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,879
Speaker 2: At the same time, you can't be as laser focus

137
00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,560
if you're just focusing on just the one.

138
00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,639
Speaker 1: That's my favorite word. Focus And I have to know

139
00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,439
how did you find your focus? Because there's so much

140
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,079
clickbait out there, there's so much assumption and oh I

141
00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,040
want this, I want that, and you're you so far

142
00:06:51,079 --> 00:06:52,920
off the path, but yet you have stayed so in

143
00:06:52,959 --> 00:06:53,519
tune with this.

144
00:06:55,240 --> 00:07:01,040
Speaker 2: Thanks. I really appreciate that. I think, jeez, what do

145
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,639
I think? I think?

146
00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,360
Speaker 3: For us, it was just important to follow the story

147
00:07:07,519 --> 00:07:11,480
and follow the facts that we found in our research,

148
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,399
and to you know, our real main protagonist in this

149
00:07:15,519 --> 00:07:19,639
story is Liz, so she we were following her journey

150
00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,600
throughout the whole thing of her early days with her parents,

151
00:07:23,639 --> 00:07:28,000
which she remembers, and then you know, during the investigation

152
00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,600
and the trial and then in this aftermath.

153
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,639
Speaker 2: So really our main focus was on Liz in her story.

154
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,040
Speaker 1: Please Do Not Move. There's more with Maggie Robinson Cats

155
00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:43,199
coming up next. The name of her podcast, hands Tied.

156
00:07:43,519 --> 00:07:46,720
We're back with the host Meggie Robinson Cats. How did

157
00:07:46,759 --> 00:07:48,959
you react when you found out that Sandy does not

158
00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:49,920
remember what happened?

159
00:07:52,279 --> 00:07:56,120
Speaker 3: You know, I think a lot of people can fill

160
00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,759
in what they think about it. You know, I know

161
00:07:58,879 --> 00:08:03,839
Sandy has a lot of health ailments, she has seizures

162
00:08:04,319 --> 00:08:07,160
and that's what caused her memory laps that night, is

163
00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,480
she had a seizure, and she was complaining of seizures

164
00:08:10,519 --> 00:08:15,480
before that, So, you know, I think there are probably

165
00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,480
two sides that people think, either that yep, it was

166
00:08:18,519 --> 00:08:22,399
a medical thing that she did, you can't have memory

167
00:08:22,439 --> 00:08:25,439
laps when you do have seizures, or it's a convenient excuse.

168
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,199
And I think both are ways that listeners can go

169
00:08:29,279 --> 00:08:31,519
in this story. And I think that's true with the story.

170
00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,360
I think there are people who will hear it one

171
00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,039
way and then there are people who will hear it

172
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,480
another way. And truly, the thing that I hope that

173
00:08:39,519 --> 00:08:42,200
people when they listen to it is that whether you

174
00:08:42,639 --> 00:08:44,759
believe in a person's innocence or not, I think that

175
00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,960
the real human tragedy is what happened to Liz, and

176
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,279
that she's mourning the loss of two parents.

177
00:08:50,399 --> 00:08:54,320
Speaker 1: Essentially, see the power of interpretation, because that's where to me,

178
00:08:54,879 --> 00:08:57,840
it's a conversation starter, but it also is something that

179
00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,840
could break you up because everybody has their own interpretation,

180
00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,679
and sometimes compassion gets out of hand because they go, well,

181
00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,080
maybe you should look at it this way, and you

182
00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:07,480
won't have such a bias.

183
00:09:08,639 --> 00:09:11,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we forget like these are people, and

184
00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:15,360
these are people who are experiencing and retelling the worst

185
00:09:15,399 --> 00:09:19,200
thing that ever happened to them. And no matter what

186
00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,799
I think, we can all agree that what happened to

187
00:09:22,879 --> 00:09:26,879
Liz is a huge tragedy. And that's my biggest hope

188
00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,279
that no matter what listeners think in terms of innocence

189
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,440
are guilty, that I hope that they resonate and can

190
00:09:33,519 --> 00:09:36,879
hear that part of the story and Liz's strength and

191
00:09:36,919 --> 00:09:38,399
trying to get through each day.

192
00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,039
Speaker 1: Would you look at this as being hindsight because I mean,

193
00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,480
I guess you know, it's like when it's happening in

194
00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,600
real time in a court room in a police investigation,

195
00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:48,399
and now you go in there and you've got all

196
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:50,480
the court records of something that's already happened. Do you

197
00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,480
see this as hindsight or do you see it as

198
00:09:52,519 --> 00:09:54,720
foresight because something needs to be uncovered.

199
00:09:57,159 --> 00:09:59,840
Speaker 3: I think, you know, later on in the series, I

200
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,679
I think that there's a couple of things that we

201
00:10:01,799 --> 00:10:05,519
highlight that could have been done better and the investigation,

202
00:10:07,039 --> 00:10:10,759
and you know, I think that there are there.

203
00:10:10,639 --> 00:10:12,000
Speaker 2: Were talking about bias.

204
00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,000
Speaker 3: There is a couple of assumptions that were made early

205
00:10:14,039 --> 00:10:16,720
on by the investigators. And I think that question of,

206
00:10:17,159 --> 00:10:19,480
you know, if they didn't immediately jump to who they

207
00:10:19,519 --> 00:10:22,919
first suspected, could they have been open to more possibilities?

208
00:10:23,039 --> 00:10:26,080
Would that open up the investigation more instead of just

209
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:26,879
lasering in.

210
00:10:27,039 --> 00:10:29,200
Speaker 2: So I think through the evidence that.

211
00:10:29,159 --> 00:10:32,320
Speaker 3: We show in the podcast, you know, I think listeners

212
00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,200
for themselves can kind of decide what they how they

213
00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,360
think the investigation went and if you know, something's were

214
00:10:39,399 --> 00:10:40,080
missed or if not.

215
00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,720
Speaker 1: Can you imagine being in Melissa's head in heart, knowing

216
00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:45,840
that she just felt deep inside that they had the

217
00:10:45,879 --> 00:10:47,559
wrong person in jail. It's like the wrong I mean

218
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,360
I would I'd be the person that would retreat. And

219
00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:52,440
I think it goes back to that confidence saying, I go,

220
00:10:52,799 --> 00:10:55,000
I guess if you guys have the evidence, okay, whatever,

221
00:10:55,159 --> 00:10:55,679
go for it.

222
00:10:56,919 --> 00:10:59,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that, And that's still something

223
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,679
you know, She's still pouring over all of these documents.

224
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,879
Speaker 2: She's still trying to in.

225
00:11:05,759 --> 00:11:09,039
Speaker 3: Her mind, you know, find the true killer of her dad,

226
00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:11,840
because she believes that the wrong person is in prison

227
00:11:11,879 --> 00:11:15,960
for this crime. So she is working tirelessly for it.

228
00:11:16,399 --> 00:11:21,240
She still pours over the documents. You know, she still

229
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,039
is trying to She's they're working with a new legal

230
00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,240
team now, so she's trying to give information to this

231
00:11:27,279 --> 00:11:30,240
new legal team, and there is some new testing that

232
00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:31,200
is being done.

233
00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:33,639
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question as a journalist, as

234
00:11:33,639 --> 00:11:37,039
an investigator, and do you lean in on a chat

235
00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,840
GPT to help you in investigating this kind of stuff?

236
00:11:39,879 --> 00:11:42,000
And how do you trust the information that's coming across

237
00:11:42,039 --> 00:11:42,879
that computer screen.

238
00:11:43,759 --> 00:11:46,840
Speaker 3: I don't know, I think because I'm you know, I

239
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,320
cut my teeth before chat GBT, so I just like

240
00:11:50,879 --> 00:11:53,080
I'm too ingrained in what I do. It's just I

241
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,440
have to kind of read everything and make a bunch

242
00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,279
of notes because I want to understand it in my

243
00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,480
own brain by you know, it's like old school studying

244
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:00,960
a little bit.

245
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,000
Speaker 2: I've got the textbook in front of me.

246
00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,799
Speaker 3: I'm highlighting things and making my own notes because that's

247
00:12:05,799 --> 00:12:07,399
the only way it can start to make sense of

248
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:08,759
something in my brain. Oh.

249
00:12:08,799 --> 00:12:10,360
Speaker 1: I'm so with you on that, because you should see

250
00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,279
the way that I show prep. It's a mess. It's

251
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,679
a mess, but somehow, some way it all comes together

252
00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:15,120
as one.

253
00:12:15,879 --> 00:12:17,879
Speaker 2: Take me through the visual. What does it look like?

254
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,360
Speaker 1: Oh, it really is. I mean, I've got every book open.

255
00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:22,159
I do go to websites. I want to make sure

256
00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:23,720
that I'm getting the right answer. I go to three

257
00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,559
and four different websites to see if you know, what

258
00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,480
is the coincidence? Is there something here that works together?

259
00:12:28,759 --> 00:12:30,919
And so and if you could see my handwriting, you go,

260
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,159
why are you in radio? You're the perfect doctor dude.

261
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:36,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

262
00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:41,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that phone call proves to be a very

263
00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,080
important game changer here for Liz.

264
00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:49,000
Speaker 2: The phone call that she received. Yeah, so you know.

265
00:12:51,279 --> 00:12:54,519
Speaker 3: She, I mean, this is what changed her life. Like

266
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,919
she was just I just want to clarify you're talking

267
00:12:57,919 --> 00:12:59,960
about the phone call when she heard about her day

268
00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:03,840
being killed. Yes, okay, I just wanted to make sure.

269
00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:09,320
So yeah, she yeah, I mean this completely changed her life.

270
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,679
You know, she was celebrating Christmas and again, like if

271
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,080
you can think of a possibly worse time to get

272
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,279
bad news like this, it's Christmas and then to get

273
00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,000
the yearly constant reminders where there's lights everywhere, people are

274
00:13:23,039 --> 00:13:25,600
being really happy, and she's with her in laws in

275
00:13:25,639 --> 00:13:29,879
England and then gets this news that something horrible has

276
00:13:29,919 --> 00:13:33,240
happened back home, that her dad has been killed. And

277
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,039
in this first moment when she gets this phone call,

278
00:13:36,159 --> 00:13:38,720
she doesn't know what happened to her mom. She nobody

279
00:13:38,799 --> 00:13:42,559
tells her where Sandy is her mom, and she just

280
00:13:42,639 --> 00:13:45,759
has to immediately go into action mode and try to

281
00:13:45,799 --> 00:13:49,039
book flights and fly there as quickly as they can.

282
00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,360
And I always try to remind people, you know, you

283
00:13:51,399 --> 00:13:54,200
got to this happened in twenty twelve. And when she's

284
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,120
flying back, she has no WiFi, she can't email people,

285
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,159
she can't text message people, like she is just in

286
00:14:03,519 --> 00:14:06,919
this airplane, not knowing what's happening on the ground and

287
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,399
not knowing what's going to await her when she arrives.

288
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,039
Speaker 1: Well, you say twenty twelve, and yet when I'm listening

289
00:14:12,039 --> 00:14:14,320
to it, it just feels like it happened yesterday. We're

290
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:15,639
and we're just getting the news now.

291
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Well I take that as a compliment to

292
00:14:20,399 --> 00:14:22,279
the storytelling that's unfolding.

293
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,360
Speaker 1: How do you build your stories in the way, I mean,

294
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,120
because you've got so much sound, how do you bring

295
00:14:28,159 --> 00:14:30,240
them together to create forward motion?

296
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:32,879
Speaker 2: It's a great question, you know.

297
00:14:33,039 --> 00:14:36,360
Speaker 3: I think each story is different, so I really never

298
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,480
want to get into a prescribed mold on how.

299
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:40,120
Speaker 2: Things are told.

300
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,960
Speaker 3: So you know, I'm sure you say this too, but

301
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,559
you know, at least with podcast storytelling, you know, we

302
00:14:47,639 --> 00:14:51,519
really want the tape to lead, so the interviews any

303
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,600
archi fle so that we always want to have the

304
00:14:56,639 --> 00:14:59,759
tape lead. And you know, for us, when we were

305
00:14:59,759 --> 00:15:04,039
all working on the story together, we felt like to

306
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,720
put people immediately in Liza's shoes is right at the beginning,

307
00:15:08,919 --> 00:15:11,840
you know, to create this idea of like a warm

308
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,000
Christmas and then turn it around so that listeners can

309
00:15:15,519 --> 00:15:18,720
maybe feel the moment of your celebrating and then the

310
00:15:18,759 --> 00:15:21,360
worst thing happens to you, and then you know, we

311
00:15:21,919 --> 00:15:25,360
try to tell the story sort of lineary from there

312
00:15:26,799 --> 00:15:30,039
to help the listener understand and have it unfold for

313
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,279
them at the same time, and try to have when

314
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,360
Liz is finding out something or when I'm finding out something,

315
00:15:36,399 --> 00:15:38,679
that that's when the listener is finding something out too.

316
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,799
Speaker 1: Do you ever want to go into a conversation recording

317
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,080
but they don't know it, Maybe you've got some metaglasses

318
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,159
on you're recording it with through a video or something.

319
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,279
I mean, because there are sometimes that you once you

320
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,440
bring out that microphone, people go a different direction. They're

321
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,840
no longer in that moment they're going, Okay, what am

322
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:55,960
I going to say? That sound going to get me

323
00:15:56,039 --> 00:15:57,360
in trouble? Oh my god, Oh my god.

324
00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:01,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that. But that's kind

325
00:16:01,759 --> 00:16:05,759
of like the gift of podcast interviews is you know,

326
00:16:05,799 --> 00:16:10,600
they're usually long and they are just conversations. You know,

327
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,279
kind of like what we're having right now is it's

328
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,799
a conversation and they don't have to be perfect by

329
00:16:16,919 --> 00:16:19,879
any means. So you know, I always want people to

330
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,600
feel comfortable with me that they don't have to perform,

331
00:16:23,639 --> 00:16:26,720
Like we can talk about you know, we can talk

332
00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:29,879
about anything but the case for the first hour if

333
00:16:29,919 --> 00:16:32,600
we want to. But I really want to build a

334
00:16:32,679 --> 00:16:36,440
rapport with people and a place of trust and really

335
00:16:36,519 --> 00:16:39,480
help guide them through the conversation to get to these

336
00:16:39,519 --> 00:16:44,240
harder places. So it's a warm up act and also

337
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,679
just a place of building and also just I like

338
00:16:46,799 --> 00:16:49,919
talking to people and having conversations, and I hope that

339
00:16:49,919 --> 00:16:52,000
that comes through when I talk to other people as well.

340
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:53,960
Speaker 1: That's so funny you bring up that word trust because

341
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,159
somebody asked me because they have to go to an interview,

342
00:16:56,279 --> 00:16:59,080
and they said, how do I begin to build up

343
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:00,639
my trust with that person? And then I'm gonna meet

344
00:17:00,679 --> 00:17:02,759
for the very first time. And I said, make it

345
00:17:02,799 --> 00:17:04,279
about them. Do you agree?

346
00:17:05,039 --> 00:17:05,400
Speaker 2: Yeah?

347
00:17:05,519 --> 00:17:08,359
Speaker 3: I mean I think if anybody wants to show curiosity,

348
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,759
and I think, you know, if I showed that I'm

349
00:17:11,759 --> 00:17:14,240
curious about you and you show that you're curious about me,

350
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,000
then we'll just keep exchanging things that we.

351
00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:17,920
Speaker 2: Like don't like.

352
00:17:19,279 --> 00:17:23,319
Speaker 3: I think it just comes from being open and being curious.

353
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:29,839
Speaker 1: Where can people go to find out more about you?

354
00:17:29,839 --> 00:17:31,200
Speaker 2: You know, I have a website.

355
00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:37,519
Speaker 3: I'm horrible at updating, so you know, maybe check on

356
00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:41,559
it in a couple of weeks, but it's maggiearcats dot com.

357
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,640
And then you can listen to Hands Tied pretty much

358
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:50,640
anywhere where you get your podcasts, Spotify, Apple, you know, Amazon,

359
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,799
wherever you listen to podcasts, but that's where that's where

360
00:17:54,799 --> 00:17:56,359
they can find out and they can listen to some

361
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:57,839
of the other things that I've made.

362
00:17:58,079 --> 00:17:59,640
Speaker 1: Well, you got to come back to this show anytime,

363
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,000
and a few you're twenty minutes with you is not enough.

364
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,680
Speaker 2: I agree, Arrow, I loved it. I can talk to

365
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:06,240
you forever.

366
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:08,160
Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today?

367
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:09,799
Speaker 2: Okay, you too,