Speaker 1: Happy Monday, friends, and welcome back to the Mark Claire Show.
Today we're going to be doing something I've been looking
forward to doing ever since I branched off from Lions
of Liberty started this show, which allows me to go
into areas beyond politics, do some different stuff, and frankly,
just do stuff I want to do. And in this case,
this is going to be the first in a series
I am calling Cracking Kubrick where we were looking at
the hidden meetings, the esoteric and occult symbolism in the
films of Stanley Kubrick. And of course when I dreamed
up this idea, I've been fascinated by Stanley Kubrick and
his films since I was at least a young teen,
maybe earlier, before I even understood a lot of them,
the meaning and esoteric nature of things. But of course
the first person I thought of is who you're gonna
hear talk about this with me today?
Speaker 2: That is, of course, the great Jay Dyer.
Speaker 1: Before we get to that conversation, I got to remind you,
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Speaker 2: That being said at his time.
Speaker 1: Now for my breakdown of two thousand and one, a
Space Odyssey with Jay Dyer, my guest today is an author, comedian,
TV host, and most pertinent to our discussion today. He
is the author of the books Esoteric Hollywood, in which
he analyzes the esoteric and occult meaning behind popular cinema.
I'm very pleased to welcome Jade I or Jay welcome
to my show.
Speaker 3: So, dude, glad to be back.
Speaker 4: We had a good chat last time, so I'm glad
to do a film analysis.
Speaker 3: So I think last time we were talking more.
Speaker 4: Philosophical, religious, geopolitical topics, so this is a nice.
Speaker 3: Change of pace.
Speaker 4: I haven't done a movie breaking down with somebody else
in a long time.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Back on that was back on Lines Liberty, and we
were kind of talking about, you know, some politics and philosophy,
the masch nations of the elite and stuff like that.
And that's kind of why I wanted to do well
an episode like this breaking down. We're gonna be breaking
down two thousand and one of Space. Audit to see today, which.
Speaker 2: Is it is?
Speaker 1: I can say I think at this point I can
safely say it is my favorite movie of all time.
Although I'm sure you've probably gone through similar stuff, it
kind of hits a little bit differently now than it
did on say I was fifteen years old, and I'm
just kind of blown away by how cool it looks
without you know, thinking about the deeper meaning behind it.
Speaker 2: But before we dive right.
Speaker 1: Into that though, just for people that might not be
new to you, for people that might not have seen
our discussion last year Onlines Liberty, maybe you can just
give a little bit of background on yourself as it
pertains to your interest in film and how you got
into sort of dissecting film and looking into the esoteric
meanings and all that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a my name is Jay Dyer. I do
a lot of dog paintings. As you can see.
Speaker 2: Oh it's likely.
Speaker 3: I take dogs and then I stuff them and then
put them in poses and paintings. So it's pretty much
all I do. Now.
Speaker 4: I do a lot of film analysis. I do a
lot of geopolitical analysis. I do a lot of breakdowns
of what's really going on in my perspective. I've been
doing that for a long time and we've kind of
added on over the years, more more topics to discuss.
So I started just doing mainly a lot of film
stuff and then I added on other interests.
Speaker 3: And so that's what we do.
Speaker 4: Host the fourth Hour of Lord Voldemort every Friday, and
it was just on Tim Cass. We just shot a
bunch of big shows that are going to be coming
out in the near future.
Speaker 3: I can't say what they were, but big stuff. So
that's what I do, all.
Speaker 2: Right, some top secret projects in the works, it sounds
like here.
Speaker 1: But so before we dive into this film itself, maybe
you could just give a little bit of your background either,
like on how you first saw this film, when this
first came into your worldview, and just your general interest
in the work of Stanley Kubrick. Did you get into
that that stuff kind of before you started typing and
looking into these hidden meetings and such.
Speaker 4: I got into Kubrick in high school because I had
a lot of friends that were like film nerds, and
you know.
Speaker 3: We all liked the arts. So I was trying to
fund I'd have a I have a long analysis of this,
so I was trying to find it because a lot
of notes and analysis anyway. Yeah, so I mean, we
all really liked the arts. I wanted to go into
acting just because I thought it was fun.
Speaker 4: I'm not gay, I'm actually heterosexual. So I wasn't in
theater because of the guys. I was in theater because
I actually just liked theater. I thought it was a
lot of fun.
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 4: We had a bunch of buddies that were in bands
and that kind of stuff. So I was more in
like the artsy crowd. And I remember we watched two
thousand and one in high school. I had no idea
what this was was. I had no idea what was
going on. None of it made any sense to me.
So I just knew some.
Speaker 3: Sort of like trippy experience.
Speaker 4: And I remember we were probably smoking weed, and you know,
I had no idea what it was.
Speaker 3: I thought at that time. I think it was, Oh,
it's just for the experience, right, like, yeah, it's not
a movie that has some meaning.
Speaker 4: Maybe it's just like, you know, visually, kind of like
David Lynch, movies are supposed to be more about the
experience than some coherent, you know, chronological beating middle end narrative.
Speaker 3: So that's kind of what I thought it was.
Speaker 4: And then many many years later, after I had gotten
deeper into you know it, took film classes, and I
was taking philosophy classes and trying to get a better
understanding of the world and you know those domains. I
went back and watched the whole Kubrick Cannon in my twenties,
and I started noticing because I had better education and
things like gnosticism and you know, Luciferian worldviews and this
kind of stuff, and to me, it started sticking out
more and more that Kubrick was, throughout all of his
films kind of lacing in a lot of conspiratorial elements.
And it's really obvious in certain movies like you know,
Eyes we I Shut but and perhaps even things like
Low Lega or The Shining. But two thousand and one,
of my view, fits into that because if you look
into the history.
Speaker 3: Of Arthur, he's a weird character. And by that time
I'd read some Arthur C. Clark and so I kind
of had a better picture on it.
Speaker 4: So I went and when I watched it again in
my twenties, I wrote a really long essay that was
kind of basically a shitty essay at the time because
I wasn't forget at writing, and then I went and
watched the movie again a few years later and wrote
a really long analysis and that ended up being I
think the one of the chapters in my first book.
And so the more that I learned, the more I
was able to understand. You know, that there is a
lot of depth in this film. I don't really agree
with the worldview message presented in the film, but I
do appreciate, you know, a lot of the achievements in
terms of cinema, a lot of the tech achievements, and
just some grandiose story right, But in the end, I
don't agree with the message of it. But yeah, that's
my take on it. It took me, basically, you know, many
many years and many many reviewings of it to figure
out what was going on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's pretty true with well, not just
stand in the Kubrick movie, maybe just general sci fi
type movies in general, where when you see them when
you're younger, they're just cool. You might not have any
idea what's going on, and it's only as you maybe
get more educated on certain other philosophies there's certain other
worldviews that you can go back and start to see like, Okay,
this is actually across the board and all, not in
just this one particular movie, but then across a series
of movies and it starts to become more clear. But
it's always a little bit of a conflict. Whereas I
learn more about the meaning behind film, it doesn't make
me appreciate it less, but I don't even know how
to describe it does something. So we'll dive into that
more as we as we go through the movie.
Speaker 2: So we're kind of start off.
Speaker 1: We're not gonna necessarily go, you know, frame by frame here,
but this movie is pretty easily divided into a few
different sections here. And yeah, I probably noticed something more
about this movie every time I watch it, and I
did just watch it again this past past weekend, so
it's pretty fresh.
Speaker 2: But I'm pretty sure I go through this every time
I watch it.
Speaker 1: But the way that cubric uses extended periods of silence
and darkness really stood out to me even more this
past time. It feels like that first that first note
of thus Spake Zarathustra, it hits that into like thirty
you know, it feels like to me, like two minutes
of blackness. It's probably not that much, but I think
the first place to start to me, is this this
opening music that we hear, thus spake Zarathustra, because there
is significance behind exactly who is Zarathustra. So maybe you
can just start there with the music and what it references,
and we'll see where it goes from that point.
Speaker 3: So that's a reference to Nietzsche, who wrote the book
The Spake Zarathustra, and it also refers to Wagner and
hints the Wagner you know film sequence that we hear.
Speaker 4: And that's odd because you know, that's kind of like
usually associated with a tiny mustache man, So it's kind
of odd that we would see that in this film.
I'm not saying it necessarily means that, but I'm just
saying that it's usually associated with that. So I would
say that the tiny mustache man element here ties into
the notion of dialectical materialism or dialectical process and that's
kind of what Nietzsche, I think, was getting at with
Eternal Return, is that the nature, the forces of nature
are just sort of inherently violent and they that's what
propels man's evolution in this worldview. So I think that's
the reason for the conscious choice of that and we
do have that planetary alignment. It's in my view that
planetary alignment is you know, via Clerk. I think there
is something esoteric or a cult connected with that.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: Necessarily that he believed in astrology, but I think that
the idea here is that these kind of planetary alignments
are part of a universe that, in that whole trilogy
that Clark wrote, is basically seeded by a form of
advanced alien technological life. So I think that what's going
on is that the monolith is essentially guiding human evolution,
and we see the alignant because this is the next
phase of that of that evolution, and that's going to
be when the apes, you know, learn warfare and learn violence,
and so again it makes sense because those are all Darwinian,
Nietzschean and in a way kind of esoter agnostic themes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we see that alignment the Earth, the Sun, and
the moon. I think we see it's a different alignment
later on. But we see the planetary alignments three different
times in the movie, first here in the beginning, then
later on two other times. But each time we see
that alignment, it coincides with the appearance of this monolith,
the black rectangle, the black square. There's a lot of
different meanings potential meanings for that, but I'll take whatever
you think your your your interpretation of the significance of
the monolith, not just what it does in terms of
shaping the course of man's evolution, but why do you
think that particular shape, that particular structure was used to
represent the they take technology, the techneque behind that.
Speaker 3: Talking about the way it turns out to look like
a pyramid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why. Yeah, when it first appears as the rectangle,
but that, yeah, you get that. That's so like.
Speaker 4: When when you see the monolith this from the cameras,
not at the bottom, and it looks like a pyramid
with a no capstone and a light at the top.
I think that's an intentional sort of you know, Luciferian images.
Speaker 3: Is that what you're talking about? Are you talking about it?
Speaker 1: I was just talking about the general appearance of the monolith,
but that that's something that I took that Yeah, yeah,
the thing with the pyramid is something I took from
your book, Like I had never thought of that on
my own, but that is part of your your analysis
of it as well.
Speaker 2: So you can dive.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, really like to have
those weird angles and play with that. He does the
same kind of thing in Shining, where he'll play with
you know, tilting the angle of the camera to make
things look kind of bent and turned into different geometric formations.
And I know that we know he has that obsession
with that sort of geometric forms and all that because
of the maze and the shining, and because of the
diamonds that appear, you know, later on in two thousand
and one, but the year You're right, the basic shape
of the monolith, I think is supposed to be a
TV and I read in it's a screen, it's and
I read it in that in the original screenplay, the
Clark idea was to have images on the screen, and
so the idea would be that this sort of unknown,
unexplained technology that just sort of appears because.
Speaker 3: It's just simply the unknown.
Speaker 4: It it's what propels or it's like the catalyst to
you know, bring about the next phase of evolution. So
that's why I think what is supposed to be. But
of course there's a lot of other interpretations. You know,
we did a season of TV show and one of
those episodes was with Jay Widener and he he thinks
that it's it represents like the movie screen itself, right,
So like when it turns and if you turn it over,
it's supposed to look like a movie screen, which entirely
is entirely possible too, but it also has this idea
of just being a sort of black It's a form
of a black cube. You know, we think of Saturn
and the Saturn a in cube and a lot of
vessel turch traditions.
Speaker 3: So it could it could have a reference to all
those things.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I think it's supposed to be the cattlest
for the next phase in evolutionary development, right, And.
Speaker 1: We see that and that first scene again, the scene
lasts like I always remember it as being two minutes long,
and then you know, I rewatched the movie and I
always think to myself, oh, this is a lot longer
than I thought. It's like a twenty minute extended seeing
meeting all these all these apes in Africa and them
kind of gets getting in a frenzy with the monolith
and they kind of show the apes sort of dealing
with a lot of uh, you know, they're dealing with
you know, cougars, jaguars, whatever, whatever lion type type creatures
are out there eating them, dealing with water shortage, dealing
with warring tribes. It's only when this monolith appears and
the one sort of alpha alpha ape goes and touches
it that he seems to be sort of imbued with
this extra knowledge. And it's not long after that where
we see him picking up the bone, smashing the bone,
and it's it's it's almost like the the monolith gave
him the knowledge of, oh, hey, you can pick things
up and and hurt people with them, and that might
help your tribe. So what's your just what's your thought
about how just the the purpose behind the monolith intentionally
giving these apes is it?
Speaker 2: Is it about technology that it's.
Speaker 1: That it's sort of guiding them on or is it
more about a spiritual change in introducing the concept of violence.
Speaker 4: It's both, right, It's like it's it's dominance through tech
and violence and tech can give you that dom uh,
that that upper hand.
Speaker 3: That.
Speaker 4: Survival of the fittest, right, So that's what we see
immediately with the alien or with the with the the monkeys,
is that you know, it's purely primal you know, survival
of the fittest, and.
Speaker 3: We immediately begin to see the alpha, you know, battle there.
Speaker 4: Between the between the two, and this then splits the
company of the monkeys and we have like a whole
new I'm just going for a memory from that scene, like,
isn't there like a now a new alpha once he
kills the other alpha and he kind of has dominance, right,
and then he celebrates and he throws the bone up,
and the bone, you know, becomes the spaceship.
Speaker 3: So we jump ahead several thousand years.
Speaker 4: And I think that in that in that worldview, that's
the idea is that violence, violence is part of the
necessary dialectical process to propel the species to the next phase.
And that's part of the justification I think for the
worldview of people who have a lot of these iluminous
and gnostic types of world views, is that nature itself
has within it the principle of death, and death is
a natural part of the process of propelling us to
the next phase. And that's you know, that's pretty fundamental
to Darwinism. And I think that Nietzschean company, right, that's
that's their whole thing.
Speaker 3: So that's why Nietzsche was so important, and that's that's
what I understand this to be.
Speaker 1: And something else I noticed rewatching this this weekend that
that sort of alpha ape that that gets the bone
and becomes the violent one, he starts his own sort
of like I don't know if it was already his tribe,
but his whole tribe of ape they all, yeah, they
all have they all have the bone. But what I
noticed this weekend watching is when when the bone, the
ones with the bones come and confront the dumb apes
that didn't get the monolith, you know, upgrade or whatever whatever,
those those other apes are the bones that did touch
the monolith, they're standing almost more. They're standing more straight up,
whereas the other ones are clearly more hunched over, which
I had never noticed before. So I do wonder if
there's even a sort of a not not so hidden
I guess message there just about evolution and Darwinia and
its' included in the in the choice of sort of
making those bone apes the violent apes stand up straighter.
I don't know if you ever noticed that.
Speaker 3: No, I had not.
Speaker 4: That's really cool, and uh, I do think there's yeah,
I remember the Uh. I was looking back at my
notes the reason that it shows the pyramid uncapped is
that it's the work is not complete, right, So the
great work is the perfecting of man in this hermetic
alchemical tradition. So in this notion, you have to evolve,
and it may take millions of years and may take
ten thousand years, who knows, right, you have to evolve
to the stage where man can through tech achieve immortality,
or achieve godhood, or achieve the transcending of the physical limitations.
And so that's why I think at the beginning we
see the pyramid on capped. I just I wanted to
bring that back because I'm trying to remember why it
was it was uncapped. But then I was like, hey, okay,
so it's that it's that great work process. And yeah,
I think you're right that the group that's going to
go into the future the next phase is the one
that has the advantage. And I had not noticed that
they were standing more upright, But it makes perfect sense.
Speaker 3: That's a great point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like you said, so he throws the bone
in the air and that sort of transmorse visually into
the space ships and the sort of can you comment
on the thing that I didn't really know much about,
but i'd heard seeing you mentioned it in your own commentary.
Sort of when we see we see this a few
times throughout the film, but when we first see these
these space ships that are sort of orbiting the moon,
these space stations, whatever they be, we see this sort
of turning wheel, and that is sort of a reference
to a symbol that we see in Buddhism and some
other sort of engined culture.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is used in a lot of places, so
it's kind of hard to pick out exactly what the
white the wheel might be referencing, but we do see
the wheel that comes up, not just in like Buddhism
and Hinduism, which is like the cycle of life and
like all the universes, like this never ending wheel that
recycles you. So it's like eternal return. That's would make
sense too, because that's Nietzsche, and Nietzsche and taught the
doctrine of eternal return, and so there's that. But there's
also like the idea of Ezekiel's wheels, which I don't
think it's an actual spaceship. I think it's supposed to
be an angelic being, but a lot of people have
interpreted that to be you know, some sort of spaceship
or something like that, so it could have.
Speaker 2: That element aliens call back that one.
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, but here the ancient aliens are like, they're
not aliens, they're advanced AI, right, which is which is
able to if I recall, right, which is able to
talk about when you read twenty ten and when and
then in three in one it's like, it's not aliens,
it's just AI that's really advanced. And that's how starchild
right because at the end he's going to become the God,
the godchild, right, so that's gonna be apotheosis, and so yeah,
that's what I that's what I think on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so once we're sort of introduced into this this
we kind of get the direct line from the violence
and the bone straight to spaceships and conquering that sort
of plane, if you will. And we learned that there
is which is really another thing that sort of hits
harder watching it now after the last couple of years, especially,
is that they've introduced a virus, a virus cover story
just to cover up for the fact that they found
this monolith on the moon. But everyone else I found
it kind of interesting. I forgot the character's name, but
you know, he's chatting with these other people and they're
kind of saying, you know, hey, we we heard there
might be a virus or something, and he's just kind
of like, no, no, we can't really, I can't really
talk about it, which he basically says it in a
way that's confirming it, but in doing so, he's actually
just advancing the cover story, because the whole point is
to make it seem like they're hiding a virus when.
Speaker 2: They're or hiding a viral outbreak, when really.
Speaker 1: They're using that story to cover for this other thing
that they found which they don't want to tell people about.
Did that that hit that any harder for you after
just after seeing the last couple of years and seeing
this sort of play out in its own way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's interesting because I mean, you know, I
don't know, I'm not I know you're not saying this,
but it's not necessarily a direct connect between.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like this and.
Speaker 3: Like coopered COVID, right, right, But.
Speaker 2: It's kind of in the playbook in a sense.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, the cover stories are always in the playbook.
Speaker 4: That's a great point. And same thing that was it
was going on in two thousand or in Spielberg's close accounts,
right the third coind.
Speaker 2: E T two, there was like a there's a whole Yeah, there's.
Speaker 4: A bio weapon cover story for the you know, so
called alien invasion or whatever.
Speaker 3: And they even fake the alien or.
Speaker 4: The the bioweapon release, right, would have the dead cows
laid out in post encounter. So yeah, I think we
do see that idea of the government putting forth plausible
counter narratives that are cover stories, and Kuber would know
that because I mean, I don't know that Kuber necessarily
filmed the moon landing or anything like that.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's a lot of speculation.
Speaker 4: But because on this film he did a consult with NASA,
I think he did have an understanding of how things
work on, you know, in terms of the real power
structure of the shadow government, et cetera.
Speaker 3: So he knows that they have the ability to do that.
Speaker 4: And Clark being one of those people who in some degree,
I don't know how far in terms of the inner
party circle he was, but he was definitely to a
degree and insider. You know, Clark was hanging out with
people like Crowley, and he was hanging out with all
the Royal Society elites and with himself pretty pretty nefarious
of a character.
Speaker 3: So in my view, also, there's.
Speaker 4: Probably some seeding of the notion that human human beings
are seated by some other foreign kind of space based entity,
like in this it's going to be AI, but it
also might relate to something like panspermia. I mean, I
know that in this movie it's not panspermia, but it
might be a form of panspermia because you know, we
don't know well when starchild Is is created in the
original story, he nukes Earth, right, so there's like this
depopulation narrative because everything needs to start over, and so
there might be a seating, a panspermia seating when everything
starts over, which is that eternal return. So I think
that when we get to starchild and we get a
new genesis at the end. I'm not trying to jump
too far the in but understand the end to know
what's going on.
Speaker 2: This is this is a spoiler field review.
Speaker 1: So if anyone hasn't seen the movie before watching this,
that's their own problem. If you haven't seen the movie,
you probably stop this right now and go watch it
and then and then return.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm assuming everybody in your audience probably has.
Speaker 1: I would think so, I would think so at this point.
But yes, I mean that, yeah, the.
Speaker 3: The am I bothering you though? I'm talking about the.
Speaker 2: Oh no, not at all.
Speaker 4: No, just because just because it's the notion of eternal return,
because the universe starts over right, that's the point.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I presume anyone seeing this has seen the whole thing,
so that we can bounce around as much as as
much as we need to tell the tell the tale.
Speaker 4: Also, I forgot to mention that, yeah, planets might also
relate to planetary overlords because they're picture again as I think,
kind of sentient intelligences, and.
Speaker 3: They're the ones that when they align, they lead.
Speaker 4: Mankind to the next phase of evolution. But I think
they're supposed to be like advanced AI. I don't think
that that's why Jupiter is such a big deal in
this right, because Jupiter, Jupiter is a big part of
this alignment and the notion of the planetary gods leading
man into an assent towards apotheosis. I mean, it's just
kind of a classic, you know, esoteric chrometic alchemical philosophy.
Speaker 1: What is specific the specific meaning of Jupiter specifically, because
they do and pretty much right after this scene is
when they find out the real story that they found
this monolith, and they go to see the monolith on
the Moon and it emits this sort of this this
you know, deafening sound. But what they discover is that
it's beaming this sound to Jupiter, which is why we
end up later going to the next sort of scene
and seeing that whole mission.
Speaker 2: But why can you dig.
Speaker 1: Further into the you know, specifically Jupiter, What is the
significance of that planet?
Speaker 4: And so in a lot of the occult narratives, and
I'm speculating here, and this will be an ocult narrative
that Clark would have known about and probably would have accepted.
Speaker 3: You have the idea that the god that controls.
Speaker 4: Our universe, our universe is in some way, probably Jupiter,
right the king of the planets. And that's just like
Saturn or Kronos. It's a it's a power or force
that limits and controls man. And so Jupiter corresponds to
yah or the Christian god Yahweh, the Jewish god, and
he's a very limited kind of localized God, and so
for man to go to the next phase of evolution
has to break out of the limitations of the localized
deities of this universe. And in a lot of the
esoteric circles, like in curly Circles, croly if our call
talked about how Jupiter represents, you know, the imprisoning creator
God of the Christian Jewish theology, and the real God
of the universe is the unknown, unexpressible beyond being God.
So in that way, it's a lot of a neoplatonic
type of mythology. But I think that the signals and
the transmissions refer to now it's time for you know,
a new transmission to bring man to the next phase.
So man's going to sort of begin to break out
of the planetary deities that run this dimension or this
universe to go to the next phase. And that's why
at the end we see that the planetary diamonds align.
Those are the planetary what are called celestial intelligences in
my view, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I think that at this point when we're we're
finding out that they're going to Jupiter and we see
that again we see the planetary alignment. I think it's
right before we again see the minor monolith on the moon. So,
like you said, it's again it's signifying a change in
the movie. We're gonna go to a sort of a
different direction of the movie, but it's also signifying that
change in mankind, or that it's time for this other
change in mankind, just like we saw in the beginning
with the apes standing upright and getting each other senses
with bones. So this does send us along into the
sort of the somewhat metior part of the movie. It's
weird because it's a long movie, but every section always
like feels small until I watch it and it's it's
twice as long as I thought. But we we see Henry.
We meet Henry Bowman, who basically becomes our protagonists of sorts.
Here again we see more wheel symbology. He's kind of
like running around sort of almost on like a hamster
wheel of sorts in the in the spaceh But ultimately
what we learn in this in this whole section is
that it's there's Bowman, this other scientist, and these other
ones that are sort of cryogenically frozen or sleeping or
whatever technology they use for that, along with their other.
Speaker 2: Companion named how how nine thousand.
Speaker 1: So as they're kind of you know, transgressing towards Jupiter
or beyond Jupiter to to sort of take this next
step of man, they already have a next step in
a sense or what is a certain kind of technological
leap with the AI technology. Again, this is another one
of those things that hits harder a lot more today
than it did even five ten years ago, where we see,
you know, people having the little chats with AI that
call themselves demons and are are expressing sort of not
so great intent.
Speaker 2: So how definitely.
Speaker 1: Strikes a little bit more of acord to me after
seeing conversations with like chat GBT and Dan and stuff
like that. But maybe you can just take it fromhever
you want there just in terms of what they show
us in terms of the space, and also how they
introduce how and the and how we're supposed to see
this artificial intelligence of how as it relates to the
sort of evolution of man that we've been seeing the
whole time.
Speaker 4: All right, So now man is beyond He's gone beyond
the territorial, terrestrial limitations of being confined to the Earth,
right He's floating in space and in space. He kind
of can float, right, So this is an image of
the beginning to the comnion of overcoming the limitations and
things like gravity.
Speaker 1: It's also when things start getting pretty phallic in the
imagery with the spaceship well and then.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the idea is that the just as man was
seated on Earth, man is going to seed the universe,
and the birth at the end of starchild right is
the production of that seminole seed. Let me read a
quick few sections in the cover this the uncapped pyramid
in an alchemical sense, signifies.
Speaker 3: The lack of the completion of the Great Work.
Speaker 4: The grand plan is to transmit based matter into goal,
which signifies both the inner journey of the psyche and
it's a scent back to God or the soul back
to the One in Neoplatonism, or the after death journey
of the gnostics through the planetary spheres. In the macro sense,
of great work is the transformation of the entire universe
into the omega point of Tahar de Schardine or of Hegel,
where the totality of reality becomes conscious of itself as
conscious and inanimate matter becomes merged into psyche, realizing its
own inert potentiality and God in process.
Speaker 3: Right, So this is where we get to starchild.
Speaker 4: The universe has within it the ability to produce, and
so Halman will be one of these figures, one of these.
How is the figure that will that's an emergent day
sex masion from within, the God from within that will
eventually in three thousand and one unite with.
Speaker 3: How to become the new deity Helman with the apes.
Speaker 4: Early man was limited, cage and bound by the forces
of nature, time and space. In space age Man has
overcome gravity, floating about the universe, no longer hindered by
the limitations of hunger, resources, and mass. This is the
middle stage of Man's gradual ascent out of the cage
of the box of time and space, which is precisely
what the monolith signifies.
Speaker 3: In part.
Speaker 4: This is why the monolith becomes a kind of coffin
box for Bowman in the climax. For Kuber, the evolutionary
scent is premised on the presubsistion of perpetual progress through technology,
overcoming limitations of space and body hunger by the time
where in space is gone, gravity is gone, and through
the krygenic sleep sleeppods time is beginning to be mastered.
Speaker 3: That was my take on that.
Speaker 1: And I think it's pretty interesting too that when we're
out in space, they really and when we're first meeting How,
at least to me, they really do seem to present
How from the very beginning really as having a personality.
There's that scene where he kind of talks about how
he was born or first created I guess in nineteen
ninety two, and he has that songs, that Daisy song
that gets a lot it's a lot weirder in Creeper
Year when he sings it later on. But do you
think that they made it sort of an an intentional
decision to to make How almost he ses almost likable
in a way, just the way he's he's sort of
is able to use sarcasm, and and even even when
he's gone bad and his and has sort of turned
on the crew, I can't help but get a kick
out of Hell pretty much the whole time till till
his very end. So I'm just just curious on your
overall thoughts on the presentation of How.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think there's this idea that humanity is evolving to
become more robotic, in this narrative, and the robot is
evolving to become more and more human, and that's going
to lead to that emergence, right or that merging at
the end. How is funny because yeah, he has this
this character that you're mentioning, but he also speaks to
himself as perfect because he's free from all human error.
And that's going to be the challenge right between the
next phase of human evolution as to who's going to
win in this Darwinian srival to fittest battle between How
or Bowman. And I think that the solution ultimately here
is that they're gonna have to It's almost like a
gnostic merging, like of two principles, the male principle to
the feminine principle. I mean, How's not feminine, but he's
He might represent the two elements that are.
Speaker 3: Needed for the synthesis, because a lot of this relates to.
Speaker 4: Alchemy, even Hegelianism is very premised on alchemy. So you
have thesis, you have antithesis, and then you have the
synthesis of the two. And so here you have Man,
you have the robot the AI and then they eventually
emerged to be that synthesis I'm trying to remember what
all I went to mine now, So so I got
into a bunch.
Speaker 3: Of Darpo stuff in the history of AI.
Speaker 4: And yeah, I think your right to point that point
out that this movie is really prescient for it right
now because we have.
Speaker 3: The emerging of AI. In my view, I don't really
think it's as advanced as they're saying. It is just
my opinion it seems to be.
Speaker 4: I mean, maybe they have a secret version of it
that's really advanced, but like the stuff that's out there
chat GPT is kind of ridiculous, doesn't seem to be
that it seems to spit out based what Google spits
out when I search Google.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm not sure.
Speaker 4: What to say about that other than that it's kind
of like diosex motion again that the deity of this
universe emerges from within the universe and then can start
new universes. So and by the way, if you if
you've watched, if you haven't watched twenty ten in a
long time, I highly recommend watching that one because there's
a lot of really deep eslitary Luciferian elements in twenty
ten that are really clear. At the end of the movie,
and it's it's actually about the dialectic of the Cold
War and how out of the Cold War we're going
to get this new sentences between capitalism and communism, right
that produces the technocratic era of space travel and seeding
the other planets.
Speaker 1: It's funny because I've never actually seen I'd read all
the books way back in the day, but I've never
actually seen twenty ten. And last night it popped up
and after I watched the movie, and I was about
to go press it, but then I was like three dollars.
Speaker 2: And I was like, nah, I don't know if I want
to play three dollars. But that's before I knew it
was good. So it's actually good.
Speaker 3: Ill paid well, I was boring. I wouldn't say it's
a good movie. It's really not as good as.
Speaker 1: It's worth watching for analysis purposes. Might not be the
same as.
Speaker 4: Good alvis it's really perfect at the end, and a
lot of the stuff that because when I wrote this analysis,
I had not Back when I wrote this, I didn't
watch twenty ten yet.
Speaker 3: I mean i'd seen it maybe back in high school.
I didn't remember if I was really boring and went
to sleep.
Speaker 4: And then when I wrote this analysis of two thousand
and one, I had not yet rewatched twenty ten.
Speaker 3: Jamie and I.
Speaker 4: Rewatched it, I think last year, and we did a
podcast on it in our Alien series, and I was
blown away, like this is.
Speaker 3: Like this is really really like really relevant. And I've
not read the second book, so I don't know.
Speaker 4: How close it follows that book, but it's you should
definitely watch it for analysis purpose.
Speaker 1: That might be one for when the wife isn't isn't
around and I don't have to border with it. But
back into like the confrontation with How, because basically Bowman
I forget, I forgot the other astronauts, but he starts
to get the sense that that something's up with How,
that maybe his programmings off or or something like that.
And they have a sort of a secret meeting because
Hall has ears everywhere except in these this certain pod.
Speaker 2: They go into which.
Speaker 1: Which comes back a little bit later, but they kind
of go in and and we we kind of see
it from How's perspective, which I think is really cool,
just in the filmmaking sense. We see them in there
sort of talking, and we both see them, you know,
we hear the words but there's also a.
Speaker 2: Part where we can kind of just see what house what.
Speaker 1: We later find out that How sees that Uh in
the the sort of big reveal, which is like one
of my favorite parts of the movie, when well, we'll
just kind of skip to it, but where both Bowman
How basically kills Bowman's, Bowman's partner as well as everyone
else on board. So it's it's basically just down to
down to Uh Bowman and he's talking to Hall and
he's saying and How's like, Uh, I kind of have
a feeling you're gonna shut me down. And Bowman's just like,
what do you mean, why what are you talking about?
Speaker 3: How?
Speaker 1: And How's like, dude, I can read lips pretty much.
And that's when you see this look. The look on
Bowman's face when he finds that out is just like
it's like getting caught texting the wrong girl or something.
He just like he knows he's son, but it's so
not one of those things. When I watched the movie
back it they stay on him to hit the shot
of him for like two minutes, where as he just
processes how fucked he is that Hal has not only
killed his crewmates but knows that he wants to shut
him down. But yeah, but luckily, you know, Bowman is
is pretty smart and Hal and so he quickly figures out, well,
I'll just go in the escape patch. And what I
really love about the scene is he's slowly going through
these and how's like, you don't have a helmet, you
can't do that. He eventually is able to get in there,
and then through a whole scene that's worth watching him
getting him back into the spaceship. But I think one
of my favorite parts here of the movie going in
is is once Bowman is back in the ship, and
you know, even though Hall has arms and eyes and
all that stuff, and that doesn't have doesn't have arm,
has eyes and ears, he doesn't have arms or anything
like that. He can't he can't touch Bowman. So once
Bowman's back in the ship, Hall is pretty much fucked
at that point. And this is when Hal goes from
sort of perfect computer mode to he he starts to
sort of like wine and rationalize. It's I thought of
it like a couple who had just gotten into a fight.
Speaker 2: And then he.
Speaker 1: Starts to kind of say, like, hold on, I know
I got a little crazy out there. Before, but I'm
better now, he starts saying, I'm better now, and I
laughed out loud. When he even suggests to Bowman, he says,
why don't you just take a stress pill.
Speaker 2: And calm down there.
Speaker 1: I don't really have a question here, but I just
I just wanted to get your own, your own thoughts
on on that whole interaction between Bowman and how as
a Bowman is preparing to uh to send how to
uh yeah, this is on.
Speaker 2: His way.
Speaker 4: Referring back to the battle between the two monkeys at
the beginning, right, So now we have two new versions
of monkeys, and Al's not a monkey, but he's a
monkey compared to where the deity of this universe is
at the end.
Speaker 3: And there's a great quote by Clark. Clark was reported
to have said, quote, it may be that our role on.
Speaker 4: The planet of Earth is to not worship God, but
to create God. And this is in reference just to
he wrote called the Final Query.
Speaker 3: The screenplight writer H.
Speaker 4: Clark, the co writer, allowed significant changes to the script
by Kubrick, with, for example, the TV screen monolith. Another
significant change is the ending where Sarchald uses the satellite
systems to blow up the planet. And so Man, we
find out, is an evolutionary error or an abortion.
Speaker 3: That's not supposed to be. We find this, by the way,
a lot of science.
Speaker 4: Fiction where the accidental or just sort of random emergence
of man is a is a mistake that needs to
be corrected, and man is an abortion. In fact, if
you watch the Alien series, that's actually really prevalent in
the the Alien about really Scott Alien mythos like man
is this is this accidental genetic modification creation from the
you know, experiments of the space jockeys or whatever.
Speaker 3: And so that's that. We find this a lot in
science fiction, and that's why.
Speaker 1: And the Alien is kind of like almost that the
virus of the elite that is just there to wipe
out the error.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's like the ultimate deepop weapon exactly. So
so here we think, oh, actually, maybe how's going to
do that? Right, because the next phase is going to
be as they're in this ship and they've been shot
out like seminal emission right into the universe literally, right,
it's supposed to I think it is supposed to mean that,
And so we have this sort of Bible of fittest
battle within the sperm as to see who's going to win,
and we think that it's going to be how it's
going to depopulate Bowman and then how will you know,
I guess go into the beyond through the stargate or whatever,
and he'll become the new God or something like that.
But it's it's not going to go in that direction. Yeah,
that's all I can remember about that party.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm curious what you think about because something I
always thought to myself and then watching but watching back,
it kind of sends mixed messages almost with How. I
wonder do you think that there is because How they
say How was born or created in nineteen ninety two,
so the technology for Hall has been around this whole time,
and this entire time. Hol's never I presume, ever killed
anybody or turned on a crew or anything like that.
So it seems like he's been around for almost thirty
years here. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts
about whether the emergence of the monolith at this time
has anything to do with sort of How's change in consciousness.
Speaker 2: If that sort of upgraded Hol.
Speaker 1: That's what I think on one side, But then on
the other side, you see how get defeated.
Speaker 2: So it kind of I kind of go both ways
on that, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Because two thousand and one is supposed to be the Well,
how isn't actually defeated?
Speaker 2: That's the thing, right, Yeah, in the moment, it seems
so in the moment.
Speaker 3: Right exactly.
Speaker 4: So if yeah, so if it's nineteen ninety two, then
you know, they probably guesstimated that it would take tenure
for the AI to develop to be you know, that advanced.
Of course, it wasn't that in two thousand and one
that we know of, right, unless we live in some
sort of I don't know AI created simulation universe that
maybe in two thousand and one, right, maybe Y two
K really was the end of the universe and we're
all actually in we've.
Speaker 3: Been in a house simul.
Speaker 2: Victorian Victorian era era bedroom since then. Out right, go ahead, no, no,
go ahead? Did you have something else on the hell thing? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Because I like, I just I wonder if the defeat
of Hal it almost see it almost seems like an
uplifting thing, the defeat of Hall at first, where he
just Bowman just goes in and sort of like slowly
removes the heart, which is probably my favorite scene in
the movie besides the next scene that will kind to
but where as Halls as he's talking. As hallis talking
to him, he's pulling out the hard drives. Hal's voice
is getting slower and more and then he sings that
I think that's my favorite, one of my favorite lines
in the movie, when he's singing that daisy song and
he just.
Speaker 2: Does just more and more like this.
Speaker 1: But it does seem like for the moment anyway, that
man has has triumphed over AI.
Speaker 2: So for a brief period which doesn't last too.
Speaker 1: Long, it almost seems like in some way man is
superior to machine, or man has that smarted machine or
could maybe could maybe actually last longer than than the machine.
Speaker 3: How can Yeah, I think it's a question of dominance.
Speaker 4: Is it is it going to be a future dominated
by tech and AI or is it a future just
gonna be.
Speaker 3: Dominated by man achieving and controlling the tech?
Speaker 4: Right, Because God, God in this world is the tech,
the AI that's created by man. Like Clark said, and
in this alchemical trans self transformational narrative, here, by the
time we get to this key point, now we're at
the next the next juncture. Right, That's why it was
so important that we see the next we skip from
the monkeys to hear because this is the next leap,
like are we going to go into again an AI
dominated future or that's a or a man dominated pure
And that's in a lot of sci fi too, even
from this time in the Dune narrative, right, Like in
Dune you have the butler Arey and Jahad, which banned
the banned AI because when in Dune when AI got loose,
it enslaved mankind had to have this against the AI
and then it's banned in the future. Right, So yeah,
there's a prevalent sort of narrative I think at the
in the sci fi of.
Speaker 3: The sixties and seventies fifty sixty seventies so and in
ways I guess it was it was prescient because here
we are and I don't know.
Speaker 4: I don't believe that AI is like, you know, going
to be God or it can come alive or become conscious,
because I don't believe that that even makes any sense,
because no matter how many additions to an algorithm that
you put in there to make it more complex, it's
still an algorithm.
Speaker 3: It's not conscious.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 4: There's a really good essay that covers this. It's that
critiqued it a long time a long time ago, called
A Mind's Machines in Girdell. It's an essay that you
could read it at Oxford. It's just a philosophical critique
of the impossibility of AI becoming conscious or self aware.
It's a philosophical argument, which I think is pretty good. So,
but I do think it's possible that, you know, the
sort of merging that we see in this story and
liketer on in the trilogy is very possible that man
can you know, extend his life and you can have
these sort of cyborg android type situations. I mean, that's
pretty much always already here, right, So that I think
is possible.
Speaker 3: But I don't think that it's like a data sex
motion of all.
Speaker 1: Right, well, this is where this is kind of the
point where the movie goes from. If you were just
watching it for the first time, it almost could just
be sort of any any standard fare sci fi sort
of film, you know, people in space fighting robots or
what have you. And then things go completely completely off
the wall. So right after Bowman defeats hal he finds
the transmission that was designed not to make them aware
of the real mission once once they kind of arrived,
so they they're they're they defeat Hall right as he's
getting to Jupiter and like Phobos and all the moons
of Jupiter planets, and the message this is not a
point where I laughed. Where you're watching it too, the
message is like, well, now that you're here with your
whole crew, and how we can tell you the real thing?
He's just like again they just cut to Bowman. That
just looks like, what the fuck.
Speaker 2: Am I doing all the way out here with this program?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like they didn't they knew they were
out there. They didn't I don't know what.
Speaker 1: They didn't really say what the cover story was, but
apparently the crew didn't know any of the real reason
that they were out there. And that's the scene where
the video the guy from that we saw earlier explains
about the monolith, explain like Bowman didn't know any of
this shit before that scene, which I found pretty interesting too,
especially because his reaction is, well, his first reaction is
it's almost like simultaneous with the viewer of the film,
and this is where it's like, okay, kind of what
you said earlier about does the monolith almost represent the
movie because right at this moment is when the monolith
appears again, and this is where things get get super trippy,
and Bowman sees the monolith. I guess he's like kind
of looking out of the spaceship. The viewer sees the monolith,
so we it kind of seems like we're seeing it
through through Bowman's point of view. But the monolith also
takes these sort of different shapes that at times it
feels like the monolith is sort of enveloping the viewer,
enveloping you know, us. So in some ways that does
play to the fact that it is representing the movie itself,
because it is it's sort of like sometimes you just,
especially if you've enough big enough screen, you you might
actually feel like.
Speaker 2: You're inside the movie at some point. So but Bowman, I.
Speaker 1: Guess they don't really explain anything about what Bowman is doing.
I don't think he speaks another word the rest of
the movie. Actually, he just sort of looks as we're
looking at the visual effects, at the awe of everything.
And then this is when it's not clear to me
if the monolith is just guiding him or if he
even like goes inside the monolith, but basically he ends
up going through.
Speaker 2: What can only be described as like a vortex. What's that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's going And it's even clearer in this in
the next, the next, and twenty ten, it's he's going
into the monolith, because he will in the next one too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the monolith basically sends him down this this
crazy vortex and just just with pretty much every other
scene in this movie, I remember it as two minutes,
and it's like twenty. It's like, it's like twenty minutes
of him seeing various shit, like perfect geometry, various colors
those who have partaken and certain psychedelics might see a
lot of it is familiar.
Speaker 2: It's really just visually stunning.
Speaker 1: I think this is the This is the part of
the movie where I think when I was younger, I
just sort of turned my brain off and said, well,
this part's just supposed to look cool. This part is
just this is where I don't know what the fuck's
going on. So I'm not gonna live right exactly like
whoa man? So scrab another bong hit and just enjoy this.
But you know, as we know, with Kubrick's filmmaking in general,
and with this film being no exception, nothing is by accident,
nothing is by chance. Yes it does look cool, but
there's meaning behind it all. So I'll let you pick
up wherever you like. Just what is your interpretation of
this entire Like it's literally like a twenty twenty five
minute sequence of him going through not just these like
visuals of the lights and but also there's there's you know,
there's there's a lot in there. There's the up close
of his eyes being illuminated. And eventually once he gets
through the vortex, as you mentioned earlier, if you can
call it being through, he sees these sort of like landscapes.
It almost looks like is he on another planet or
is he seeing the formation of Earth. It's time has
now been able to become confusing as well, but eventually,
like at the end there he does also see those
the seven sort of it's like perfect sort of triangles
or pyramids or diamonds or whatever.
Speaker 3: The pics.
Speaker 4: I think they're supposed to represent the planetary deities, right,
because in the classical world you have seven planetary deities.
So Kubrick said, quote, I will say that the god
concept is definitely at the heart of two thousand and
weren't one. However, it's not any traditional ethropomorphic notion of God.
I don't believe in any of Earth's monotheistic religions, but
I do believe that you can construct an intriguing scientific
definition of God wants you to accept the fact that
there's a hundred million.
Speaker 3: Stars in our galaxy.
Speaker 4: In our galaxy, and each star has life giving potential,
and one hundred billion galaxies blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: The planet is in.
Speaker 4: A stable orbit, not too hot, not too cold, and
given a billion years of chance, the chemical reactions due
to the Sun's energy rays can produce a chance for
life to emerge. Is reasonable to assume that there must
be countless of billions of worlds, and that life probably
developed on and developed on other planets, and that their
intelligence was high eventually.
Speaker 3: So he says that that would have led.
Speaker 4: To you know, it's kind of the typical sort of
alien the logic of the alien story, that oh, well,
there would be these advanced evolutionary beings on other planets
because of the billions of years of time in the universe.
He says, their potentialities would be limitless, their intelligence would
would be would be ungraspable by humans, and he says
that they would have been beings who, like a.
Speaker 3: Chrysalis, transformed from matter into beings of pure energy and spirit.
Speaker 4: So that's gnostic, that's Hegelianism, that's Tahar, that's everything that I.
Speaker 3: Was getting at.
Speaker 4: And so what we have here is this, as we
said a minute ago, this challenge between hol and Bowman.
Hall ends up not winning out, but Bowman goes into
the stargate, the monolith stargate, which my view, he's stepping
outside of time and space. So he's again finally getting
to the phase of transcending those previous limitations that we mention,
and by going beyond Jupiter, he's going beyond, as we said,
the limiting deity of this universe or celestial intelligence of
this universe. And now he can see, like you said,
like he's seeing the formation of this universe. He's seeing
outside of time and space. He's seeing, in fact, in
my view, that even the fundamental structure of the universe,
that it has these sort of fundamental structures, platonic solids,
like we read in Platos to Mas. That's kind of
the ultimate cosmology of all the Hermitic and occult religions
is Platos to Maus, which itself says goes back to
ancient Egypt.
Speaker 1: So what I was supposed to represent like the building
blocks of reality or like you know, the code of
the matrix wherever you want to.
Speaker 4: I kind of think it's a matrixy type of thing here, right,
So that the bowman is seeing that this is how
the universe. He can see the smallest level of how
the universal structure, and he can see it on a
macro scale. You can see the beginning of it, he
can see the end of it. So he's outside of
time and space and he can you know, has a
maybe a limited notion of omniscience.
Speaker 3: I guess.
Speaker 1: It's like he's the human and you kind of see
this on the look on his face when he's in
the room later, like he has this huge amount of
sort of ability to see things and understanding, but also
is still this human mind that can't comprehend anything.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I wrote the transcendent sequence harkens to some
kind of LSD trip or initiated. It's a kind of initiation,
and I think the viewer is supposed to be initiated too,
so that the movie experience is an initiatory, right, or
it's and Kuber does this all the time.
Speaker 3: That's why he called the movie eyes white shut, Right.
Speaker 4: He's like, you're in the audience, I'm gonna show you
how the world really works with like you know, these
powerful cults that run things, and you're not going to
understand it. Your eyes are going to remain shut. You're
going to think it's a movie when it's actually the
world really works. And so I wrote, Bama's mind is
overload with illumination and it signifies the reaching, his reaching
of the eye.
Speaker 3: So the reason that the eye.
Speaker 4: Imagery at the at the end of some important is
that the capstone had been uncapped and now Bowman is.
Speaker 3: The eye of the capstone in my view, So that
means that he's achieved apotheosis. He's become a god man.
And that's what star Child is, right.
Speaker 4: Star Child is the ultimate apotheosis of man, the god
man that emerges from the universe.
Speaker 3: But it did take uh, it did take the aid
of how to do it.
Speaker 4: Ironically, how was part of that dialectical process and later
on how will be actually integralted the being becomes Halman.
So how and Bowman merged to become Halman and he
has this like chariot thing that he that he runs
around and rules the universe with.
Speaker 1: That's on the on the books, right, Yeah, because yeah,
that's the first in the film, it's unclear that there's
any connection to Hell anymore at this point, but yeah,
in the book that becomes much more of a thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So I just think that it's basically showing the initiatory
journey of an individual and alchemical worldview to understand the
possible future of mankind from this esultary perspective to how
man would kind of become become his own god.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if that, if that whole vortex and everything
wasn't wasn't trippy enough. This sort of pretty much final
scene that we'll go into here is when Bowman suddenly
finds himself after going through this whole thing, seeing the
birth of the universe, seeing you know, the seven seven diamonds,
the all of that stuff, he is suddenly just in
sort of a room or his space pod is.
Speaker 3: In this room.
Speaker 1: So it's like this was physically being guided through and
then just kind of plopped in this place that seems
to have been I guess created for him in some
way shape or form or maybe created by health in
his mind, depending on how you want to interpret things.
But he's in this sort of weird Victorian era, sort
of like fan see fancy bedroom, and this is where
it again. It gets pretty pretty pretty trippy, you might say,
because you're seeing this through Bowman's point of view at first,
and you're seeing him look out.
Speaker 2: Again.
Speaker 1: This is the kind of a theme with Kubrick's movies,
like like you mentioned there, where you're almost supposed to
be part of the movie in a sense. So he
kind of feels like that when when you're you're seeing
as Bowman from outside of his little space capsule, seeing
into the room, and then.
Speaker 2: He sees himself.
Speaker 1: He sees himself in the space in the spacesuit, and
then suddenly he goes from seeing himself to being himself.
Now he is this older version of himself in the
spacesuit walking around this sort of weird Victorian castle or
whatever it might be, until he comes upon a room
where he hears someone and sees someone eating. This person
turns around just kind of and then once again he
goes from seeing that person which is just himself, into
being that person, so that he becomes the Henry Bowman
that was sitting there eating drops this glass, and then
looks over at the final, absolute creepiest version of himself,
this version that is this ruined and like gross and
just like it looks like if a human could become
two thousand years old, this is what a human a
two thousand years old would look like, as he again
sees himself, then becomes himself in the bed right before
we see the monolith one final time, and well we'll
get to Starchild one more time at the end. But why,
I just give me just your thoughts on this whole
thing where Bowman is. Did you have any thoughts on
why they chose this this sort of decour First of all,
that that part's always good question.
Speaker 4: I remember reading somewhere why he did that, And I
don't remember what his reasoning was, But if I recall
he is he said something innocuous, like he just thought
it looked cool. I don't remember what exactly, but there's
probably more to it than that.
Speaker 3: Maybe he was just joking around.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this seems to be a kind of a temporary uh.
I mean, I don't know what word.
Speaker 3: To you, like maybe katabasis, like so.
Speaker 4: In a lot of literature, you have this notion of
the hero has to do his descent into the underworld
before he can be resurrected, before he can come back,
and the underworld journey it's part of it's like the
last phase of his event of hero's adventure. And then
he comes back and he you know, saves his bride,
or he you know, beats the monster or whatever. So
I think that or it's the same as Christ is
sent into Hades in Christian theology. So Bowman is kind
of like he's undergoing his catabasis. He's gone into outside
of the universe. And then this is a kind of
again it's not hell, but it's like a kind of
a purgatorial, temporary holding place so that he can see
his own self, his own life, his own progression from
youth to death, so that he can undergo death to
be reborn. So I think this is just his death.
He needs to see and undergo death. But he's in
a place where he's outside of time and space, so
it's kind of like he's reliving and seeing his whole.
Speaker 3: Life is flashing before him. Again.
Speaker 4: I don't know why it's in a museum, but maybe
it's just like this is the museum of you know,
the history of man as hitherto known to be man.
Now man is going to be something new. He's becoming
a whole new thing, and that's the apotheosis, that's the
birth into being the next the god Man.
Speaker 3: So that's my reading of that. I'm sure there's more
to it.
Speaker 4: I just haven't really figured out all the exactly what
the whole Victorian or it's actually I think he says,
Louis the sixteenth, you know, yeah, yeah, palace or whatever.
Speaker 3: I'm not exactly sure what the meanium old that.
Speaker 4: Is, but I do know that it's like the last
thing that he has to overcome is death, right, So
you have the limitations of time and space and all
that kind of stuff previously that we mentioned, and now
in this assent, he's got one last thing to overcome,
which is mortality. So I think that's the main significance
of it, is overcoming mortality through being born again as.
Speaker 3: Startok, which he is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he goes from that creepy old, you know,
disgusting two thousand year old man to a fetus upon
the appearance of the on alth.
Speaker 2: We then we get, of course, we close up.
Speaker 1: With another appearance from the Great Thus Spake is zarathustrap
music that we're all familiar with, as we see this
new super creepy looking baby, Henry Bowman star Child appear
over the earth, and so he basically looks like a baby,
but also looks like Henry Bowman as a baby. So
it's it's a it's super weird, super creepy, and then
that that is the movie. So you've referenced a few times,
maybe you can just sum it up with, you know, what,
why why is Henry Bowman? I mean, now we know
it's the star Child and the significance, but I mean
this is the one where as a kid, I would
just be like or not even a kid, I mean
just a few years ago, I would just kind of
throw my hands up in the air and be like,
all right, this movie means nothing. They just want they
just made him a baby. But there is more significant
to it than that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: A lot of the people from the alchemical hermetic tradition
and people even in transhumanist philosophy today believe that evolution
is this upward ascent, somehow sort of a predetermined upward,
upward ascent to perpetual progress to achieving deity.
Speaker 3: So man will evolve to become God.
Speaker 4: And the reasoning is, well, what's the most likely means
by which he would have all to become God.
Speaker 3: Well it would be technology.
Speaker 4: So that's I think, ultimately the root narrative throughout the
Clark stories here.
Speaker 3: That's what's going on.
Speaker 4: And like I said, there was supposed to be the
idea that Starchild would nuke Earth and start over, but
they decided that was a little too dark, so they
didn't put that in there, if I remember, so they
just left it as Starchild basically kind of like creating
another universe. So we're back at Genesis, and since Bowman
has transcended and become his own god, he can now.
Speaker 3: Create his own universe. He's the god of his own universe.
Speaker 4: And so that's the whole meaning of you know, the
alchemical process, the ascent of man. Apotheosis means Man becoming God.
So that's why I think that the story's supposed to.
Speaker 1: Be so at least as far as the movie goes,
I mean, the books and the Seagulls, the movies go
in other directions or what have you. But as far
as the movie goes. That's what always confused me, like
is this Bowman just returning to Earth to do whatever?
Or is this a cycle or is it almost like
this might be back at Genesis.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now now.
Speaker 1: Maybe Bowmen Bowman through that well, as we know in
the books, like when he sort of merges with how
he is the one responsible for almost like Interstellar, where
the ones that are guiding this whole thing are actually
the ones are what make humans becomes the one that
started and then we're sort of stuck in this, in
this never ennic cycle exactly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that would make sense in the Nietzschean view
that it's an eternal return. Thus spake Zarathustra, right, that
notion of the sort of a never ending cyclical universe
where now the process starts over again and we're back
at Genesis and Creation, which not Genesis in the biblical sense,
but the idea of Genesis in a you know, big
bang cosmic beginning of the universe sense.
Speaker 2: Right, definitely not in the biblical sense at all. Right,
one more question I want to and then we'll we'll.
Speaker 1: Hop over to the smoke of the room and see
if we can get a little bit weirder. But I'm
just curious where you put this personally in if you
have a head sort of a headcanon ranking of Kubrick films,
where would you land this one in terms of your
personal favorites Anyway, that's a good question.
Speaker 2: I didn't prep you for that one. It's a tough
one my.
Speaker 3: Personal I like probably The Eyes Watch.
Speaker 4: That's probably my favorite, just because it's a little more grounded,
grounded and down to earth, and when it comes to
the reality of the conspiracy world.
Speaker 2: That's one that's moved up my rankings.
Speaker 1: I think when I first saw it, I was like,
I don't know it was there was some cool orgies,
I guess, but I'm not sure. But now, like the
more I watch it, it just it's ages like a
like a fine wine.
Speaker 2: It gets better every time I see it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, probably next would be The Shining I like that
a lot.
Speaker 3: Probably next would be.
Speaker 4: I mean, I appreciate Barry Lyndon, but it's kind of boring,
not a big kind of Lolita, although it is relevant.
Speaker 3: To I guess how the world really works Spartacus.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I guess I would put two thousand
and one maybe in terms of just appreciating the accomplishment
and the artistic achievement and the significance of it.
Speaker 3: Even though I don't agree with the worldview, I would
probably place it fourth.
Speaker 2: Fourth.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we have above it eyes wide shut, shining,
and it was the other one that you have you
have above it.
Speaker 3: I forgot what I put third. Maybe I'll put third,
and then it's not better than Barry Linden, So maybe
Berry Linden fourth.
Speaker 1: All right, all right, well, Jay, I really appreciate you
coming on to break this down. Like I said, We're
gonna hop in the Smokefield room for the Premio Premio
subs in a second. But before we sign off, just
make sure you give everybody the full roundabout about where
they can find your work all over the place. Your website, YouTube,
you're everywhere.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jay Dyer on YouTube, pretty much everywhere else.
Speaker 4: Jay Dyer on Twitter, Instagram. You can find my fourth
Hour at my website all of the last two years.
Speaker 3: It's everything's on my website. But you can also find
all that on Bandai Video TV. Show that we did,
which is more relevant to today's analysis was over at Gaya.
Speaker 4: It's called Hollywood Decoded. So there's a whole season of
that TV show where we did basically twenty ish episodes
like we did today, breaking down all these different films,
including two thousand and one and other Kubri films too.
We did the Shining, we did Eyesweight Shut.
Speaker 3: So that's all over there, and you have a bunch
of books.
Speaker 4: So if you like this kind of analysis, you can
get my two Hollywood books. But I also have a
bunch of books on philosophy and theology at the website too.
My wife has books kind of breaking down film symbolism
and occult symbolism as well.
Speaker 3: And all that's at my website. In the shops on
Rocky you.
Speaker 1: Can give yourself your own sort of masterclass, and I
mean you could spend years just just devouring day's material.
Speaker 2: So check that all out. And Jay, thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Lost the course real quick.
Speaker 2: I forgot Oh yeah yeah, go ahead over.
Speaker 3: At Richard Grows Autonomy University.
Speaker 4: We just taught a whole history of Western philosophy course,
so that's available over at Autonomy University.
Speaker 1: Awesome, good ass, Jay, thanks so much for coming on.
Really appreciate you coming on my show. Thank you all right, friends,
I hope you enjoyed my breakdown, really Jay's breakdown, our
breakdown of two thousand and one Space Odyssey with Jay Dyer.
Be sure to follow his work if it's been created,
there's a decent chance that Jay has done an esoteric
analysis and breakdown of it. So he's just a vast,
sore source of information and knowledge, and not just on
this subject. I mean, if you're if you're becoming an
ortho bro or something. He has so much stuff on theology,
so much stuff on global politics, conspiracy. I mean, Jay
just has an incredibly vast depth of knowledge at his disposal.
So I really want to encourage you to head over
check out Jay's analysis dot com and give Jay a like,
a sub a follow, whatever you gotta do, just go ahead.
Speaker 2: And do it.
Speaker 1: And of course, if you enjoy my conversation with Jay today,
you probably will enjoy the rest of it because this
this conversation has always continued in the smoke filled Room.
Bonus segment for my premium subscribers on Patreon, on a
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which has been rumored. Of course, he also gets into
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That to being said, that is all for this week,
my friends. Next week we're gonna have another great conversation.
If you thought this is weird, well we talked about
some some fictional aliens today, well today next week we're
gonna be talking about some possible non fictional aliens. The
current hoopla around UFO is what is going on here.
We're gonna be talking about that with my guest Griffin
Daughtry next week. Until then, my friends, O case I
don't see you, Good afternoon, good evening, and good night
Speaker 3: Music