1 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,199 Speaker 1: Happy Monday, friends, and welcome back to the Mark Claire Show. 2 00:00:27,399 --> 00:00:29,600 Today we're going to be doing something I've been looking 3 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,600 forward to doing ever since I branched off from Lions 4 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,439 of Liberty started this show, which allows me to go 5 00:00:35,439 --> 00:00:38,719 into areas beyond politics, do some different stuff, and frankly, 6 00:00:38,799 --> 00:00:41,159 just do stuff I want to do. And in this case, 7 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,799 this is going to be the first in a series 8 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,960 I am calling Cracking Kubrick where we were looking at 9 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,320 the hidden meetings, the esoteric and occult symbolism in the 10 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,759 films of Stanley Kubrick. And of course when I dreamed 11 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,359 up this idea, I've been fascinated by Stanley Kubrick and 12 00:00:55,399 --> 00:00:57,399 his films since I was at least a young teen, 13 00:00:57,479 --> 00:00:59,880 maybe earlier, before I even understood a lot of them, 14 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:02,759 the meaning and esoteric nature of things. But of course 15 00:01:02,799 --> 00:01:04,799 the first person I thought of is who you're gonna 16 00:01:04,799 --> 00:01:06,120 hear talk about this with me today? 17 00:01:06,159 --> 00:01:08,079 Speaker 2: That is, of course, the great Jay Dyer. 18 00:01:08,239 --> 00:01:11,519 Speaker 1: Before we get to that conversation, I got to remind you, 19 00:01:11,519 --> 00:01:13,159 you know, normally I would hold the coffee up. I 20 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,159 am holding it up for video viewers, but it's empty. 21 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:15,799 It's empty. 22 00:01:15,799 --> 00:01:18,159 Speaker 2: Why you can even see the coffee residues. I want 23 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:18,599 you to look. 24 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: If you're not watching on video platforms and you want 25 00:01:20,599 --> 00:01:22,519 some evidence, go subscribe. 26 00:01:22,079 --> 00:01:24,519 Speaker 2: On YouTube if you like. In fact, I ask you 27 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:25,040 to even. 28 00:01:24,879 --> 00:01:26,519 Speaker 1: If you don't want to watch there, because we're on 29 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:28,079 the mission to get to a thousand subs so we 30 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:29,400 can do more with YouTube. 31 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 2: But of course great to support all of the various 32 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:32,719 other platforms. 33 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,439 Speaker 1: Because not every episode will be on YouTube, because just 34 00:01:34,519 --> 00:01:37,560 like last week, last week's my conversation with ol Damaguard 35 00:01:37,719 --> 00:01:40,239 not on YouTube for what I think would be obvious reasons. 36 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,799 So head over to bit shoot, odysseee, what else, rumble. 37 00:01:43,879 --> 00:01:46,519 There's all sorts of places you can find and subscribe 38 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,000 to this show off YouTube as well, But I want 39 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:51,920 you to head over and do something else while your 40 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:53,920 browsing the internet. I want you to head to foxansuns 41 00:01:53,959 --> 00:01:57,599 dot com, Fox the Letter n s o ns dot com. 42 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,879 Even if you don't drink coffee, I don't know how 43 00:01:59,879 --> 00:02:02,239 you survive not drinking coffee because I got to start 44 00:02:02,239 --> 00:02:04,400 my day with it. But if you don't, I bet 45 00:02:04,439 --> 00:02:06,560 you have a friend, a loved one, something like that. 46 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,120 And if you like this show, all I ask is 47 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:10,840 you to do one thing for me. Actually, I have 48 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:11,840 a lot of things that I want to ask you. 49 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,759 Do iTunes review to become a supremium subscriber. Yaha, yeah, 50 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:17,840 I know. But right now I'm asking you to do 51 00:02:17,879 --> 00:02:21,240 one thing. Head over to foxansuns dot com and get 52 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:21,960 yourself a bag. 53 00:02:22,159 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 2: I'm gonna get you eighteen percent off just for trying 54 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:25,080 it once. 55 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: Use discount code MCS the letter M, the letter C, 56 00:02:29,319 --> 00:02:33,039 the letter S. Think Mark Claire's show. Use that discount code. 57 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,879 Get yourself eighteen percent off the show. Help a sponsor 58 00:02:35,879 --> 00:02:39,400 of the show, help my show, help yourself. Help a 59 00:02:39,439 --> 00:02:41,639 friend or loved one if they're in need of some 60 00:02:41,719 --> 00:02:45,800 excellent fresh incredibly sourced, incredibly sourced. I just made that up, 61 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:47,759 but they are sourced and they are incredible, So there 62 00:02:47,759 --> 00:02:50,800 you go. Incredibly sourced coffee beans. I think ethically sourced 63 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:52,159 is probably the phrase we're supposed to use. 64 00:02:52,199 --> 00:02:52,879 Speaker 2: I'm going to say. 65 00:02:52,719 --> 00:02:55,719 Speaker 1: Incredibly sourced because Stephen Fox does an incredible job with 66 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,080 this business, which he also started to help teach his 67 00:02:58,159 --> 00:03:00,439 sons about entrepreneurship. So I think it's just a beautiful 68 00:03:00,439 --> 00:03:03,319 thing all around. Head over to foxonsuns dot com. Use 69 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,919 this concode MBSCS for eighteen percent off your order. 70 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 2: That being said at his time. 71 00:03:08,439 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: Now for my breakdown of two thousand and one, a 72 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:16,240 Space Odyssey with Jay Dyer, my guest today is an author, comedian, 73 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,879 TV host, and most pertinent to our discussion today. He 74 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,159 is the author of the books Esoteric Hollywood, in which 75 00:03:23,159 --> 00:03:26,879 he analyzes the esoteric and occult meaning behind popular cinema. 76 00:03:26,879 --> 00:03:29,280 I'm very pleased to welcome Jade I or Jay welcome 77 00:03:29,319 --> 00:03:29,759 to my show. 78 00:03:30,599 --> 00:03:31,759 Speaker 3: So, dude, glad to be back. 79 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,479 Speaker 4: We had a good chat last time, so I'm glad 80 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,039 to do a film analysis. 81 00:03:36,039 --> 00:03:37,719 Speaker 3: So I think last time we were talking more. 82 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 4: Philosophical, religious, geopolitical topics, so this is a nice. 83 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:43,039 Speaker 3: Change of pace. 84 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,439 Speaker 4: I haven't done a movie breaking down with somebody else 85 00:03:45,439 --> 00:03:46,000 in a long time. 86 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:46,599 Speaker 2: Yeah. 87 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: Back on that was back on Lines Liberty, and we 88 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,479 were kind of talking about, you know, some politics and philosophy, 89 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,639 the masch nations of the elite and stuff like that. 90 00:03:53,719 --> 00:03:55,479 And that's kind of why I wanted to do well 91 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,479 an episode like this breaking down. We're gonna be breaking 92 00:03:58,479 --> 00:04:00,960 down two thousand and one of Space. Audit to see today, which. 93 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: Is it is? 94 00:04:01,759 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: I can say I think at this point I can 95 00:04:03,159 --> 00:04:04,960 safely say it is my favorite movie of all time. 96 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,680 Although I'm sure you've probably gone through similar stuff, it 97 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,520 kind of hits a little bit differently now than it 98 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,360 did on say I was fifteen years old, and I'm 99 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,120 just kind of blown away by how cool it looks 100 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,639 without you know, thinking about the deeper meaning behind it. 101 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 2: But before we dive right. 102 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:20,199 Speaker 1: Into that though, just for people that might not be 103 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:21,800 new to you, for people that might not have seen 104 00:04:22,079 --> 00:04:24,319 our discussion last year Onlines Liberty, maybe you can just 105 00:04:24,319 --> 00:04:26,560 give a little bit of background on yourself as it 106 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,959 pertains to your interest in film and how you got 107 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,040 into sort of dissecting film and looking into the esoteric 108 00:04:32,079 --> 00:04:32,920 meanings and all that. 109 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a my name is Jay Dyer. I do 110 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,160 a lot of dog paintings. As you can see. 111 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 2: Oh it's likely. 112 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 3: I take dogs and then I stuff them and then 113 00:04:44,399 --> 00:04:47,480 put them in poses and paintings. So it's pretty much 114 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:48,120 all I do. Now. 115 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 4: I do a lot of film analysis. I do a 116 00:04:50,319 --> 00:04:53,480 lot of geopolitical analysis. I do a lot of breakdowns 117 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,920 of what's really going on in my perspective. I've been 118 00:04:56,959 --> 00:04:58,399 doing that for a long time and we've kind of 119 00:04:58,399 --> 00:05:01,279 added on over the years, more more topics to discuss. 120 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,360 So I started just doing mainly a lot of film 121 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,839 stuff and then I added on other interests. 122 00:05:05,879 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 3: And so that's what we do. 123 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 4: Host the fourth Hour of Lord Voldemort every Friday, and 124 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,879 it was just on Tim Cass. We just shot a 125 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:18,360 bunch of big shows that are going to be coming 126 00:05:18,399 --> 00:05:19,879 out in the near future. 127 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 3: I can't say what they were, but big stuff. So 128 00:05:22,759 --> 00:05:24,360 that's what I do, all. 129 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: Right, some top secret projects in the works, it sounds 130 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:26,839 like here. 131 00:05:26,879 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: But so before we dive into this film itself, maybe 132 00:05:30,319 --> 00:05:33,680 you could just give a little bit of your background either, 133 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,439 like on how you first saw this film, when this 134 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,879 first came into your worldview, and just your general interest 135 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,519 in the work of Stanley Kubrick. Did you get into 136 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,040 that that stuff kind of before you started typing and 137 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:46,720 looking into these hidden meetings and such. 138 00:05:47,879 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 4: I got into Kubrick in high school because I had 139 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,639 a lot of friends that were like film nerds, and 140 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:55,040 you know. 141 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:02,399 Speaker 3: We all liked the arts. So I was trying to 142 00:06:02,439 --> 00:06:05,079 fund I'd have a I have a long analysis of this, 143 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,120 so I was trying to find it because a lot 144 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,879 of notes and analysis anyway. Yeah, so I mean, we 145 00:06:09,959 --> 00:06:14,120 all really liked the arts. I wanted to go into 146 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,000 acting just because I thought it was fun. 147 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:21,399 Speaker 4: I'm not gay, I'm actually heterosexual. So I wasn't in 148 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,639 theater because of the guys. I was in theater because 149 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:26,920 I actually just liked theater. I thought it was a 150 00:06:26,959 --> 00:06:27,439 lot of fun. 151 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 3: And so. 152 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 4: We had a bunch of buddies that were in bands 153 00:06:33,399 --> 00:06:34,560 and that kind of stuff. So I was more in 154 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,879 like the artsy crowd. And I remember we watched two 155 00:06:37,879 --> 00:06:40,120 thousand and one in high school. I had no idea 156 00:06:40,199 --> 00:06:41,759 what this was was. I had no idea what was 157 00:06:41,759 --> 00:06:43,720 going on. None of it made any sense to me. 158 00:06:44,399 --> 00:06:47,879 So I just knew some. 159 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 3: Sort of like trippy experience. 160 00:06:50,079 --> 00:06:52,439 Speaker 4: And I remember we were probably smoking weed, and you know, 161 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:54,720 I had no idea what it was. 162 00:06:54,959 --> 00:06:56,439 Speaker 3: I thought at that time. I think it was, Oh, 163 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,000 it's just for the experience, right, like, yeah, it's not 164 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:00,439 a movie that has some meaning. 165 00:07:00,439 --> 00:07:03,079 Speaker 4: Maybe it's just like, you know, visually, kind of like 166 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:04,920 David Lynch, movies are supposed to be more about the 167 00:07:04,959 --> 00:07:09,079 experience than some coherent, you know, chronological beating middle end narrative. 168 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,399 Speaker 3: So that's kind of what I thought it was. 169 00:07:11,639 --> 00:07:14,839 Speaker 4: And then many many years later, after I had gotten 170 00:07:14,879 --> 00:07:17,959 deeper into you know it, took film classes, and I 171 00:07:17,959 --> 00:07:21,560 was taking philosophy classes and trying to get a better 172 00:07:21,639 --> 00:07:24,920 understanding of the world and you know those domains. I 173 00:07:25,199 --> 00:07:28,839 went back and watched the whole Kubrick Cannon in my twenties, 174 00:07:28,879 --> 00:07:31,800 and I started noticing because I had better education and 175 00:07:31,879 --> 00:07:36,800 things like gnosticism and you know, Luciferian worldviews and this 176 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,720 kind of stuff, and to me, it started sticking out 177 00:07:39,759 --> 00:07:42,279 more and more that Kubrick was, throughout all of his 178 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,439 films kind of lacing in a lot of conspiratorial elements. 179 00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:50,360 And it's really obvious in certain movies like you know, 180 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,240 Eyes we I Shut but and perhaps even things like 181 00:07:53,279 --> 00:07:56,759 Low Lega or The Shining. But two thousand and one, 182 00:07:56,759 --> 00:07:58,480 of my view, fits into that because if you look 183 00:07:58,480 --> 00:07:59,199 into the history. 184 00:07:58,959 --> 00:08:02,639 Speaker 3: Of Arthur, he's a weird character. And by that time 185 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,120 I'd read some Arthur C. Clark and so I kind 186 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,399 of had a better picture on it. 187 00:08:07,399 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 4: So I went and when I watched it again in 188 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,800 my twenties, I wrote a really long essay that was 189 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,279 kind of basically a shitty essay at the time because 190 00:08:15,279 --> 00:08:17,439 I wasn't forget at writing, and then I went and 191 00:08:17,439 --> 00:08:20,759 watched the movie again a few years later and wrote 192 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,959 a really long analysis and that ended up being I 193 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,879 think the one of the chapters in my first book. 194 00:08:25,839 --> 00:08:28,199 And so the more that I learned, the more I 195 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,040 was able to understand. You know, that there is a 196 00:08:30,079 --> 00:08:31,839 lot of depth in this film. I don't really agree 197 00:08:31,879 --> 00:08:35,279 with the worldview message presented in the film, but I 198 00:08:35,279 --> 00:08:38,080 do appreciate, you know, a lot of the achievements in 199 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,440 terms of cinema, a lot of the tech achievements, and 200 00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:48,080 just some grandiose story right, But in the end, I 201 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,639 don't agree with the message of it. But yeah, that's 202 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:52,759 my take on it. It took me, basically, you know, many 203 00:08:52,759 --> 00:08:55,240 many years and many many reviewings of it to figure 204 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:56,039 out what was going on. 205 00:08:56,879 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's pretty true with well, not just 206 00:08:59,159 --> 00:09:01,960 stand in the Kubrick movie, maybe just general sci fi 207 00:09:02,039 --> 00:09:04,200 type movies in general, where when you see them when 208 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,559 you're younger, they're just cool. You might not have any 209 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,000 idea what's going on, and it's only as you maybe 210 00:09:09,279 --> 00:09:11,840 get more educated on certain other philosophies there's certain other 211 00:09:11,879 --> 00:09:15,039 worldviews that you can go back and start to see like, Okay, 212 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,879 this is actually across the board and all, not in 213 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,279 just this one particular movie, but then across a series 214 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,320 of movies and it starts to become more clear. But 215 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,480 it's always a little bit of a conflict. Whereas I 216 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:26,919 learn more about the meaning behind film, it doesn't make 217 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:28,840 me appreciate it less, but I don't even know how 218 00:09:28,879 --> 00:09:30,679 to describe it does something. So we'll dive into that 219 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,159 more as we as we go through the movie. 220 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 2: So we're kind of start off. 221 00:09:33,639 --> 00:09:36,039 Speaker 1: We're not gonna necessarily go, you know, frame by frame here, 222 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,200 but this movie is pretty easily divided into a few 223 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,919 different sections here. And yeah, I probably noticed something more 224 00:09:43,919 --> 00:09:45,720 about this movie every time I watch it, and I 225 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,000 did just watch it again this past past weekend, so 226 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:48,679 it's pretty fresh. 227 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,039 Speaker 2: But I'm pretty sure I go through this every time 228 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:51,600 I watch it. 229 00:09:51,639 --> 00:09:55,519 Speaker 1: But the way that cubric uses extended periods of silence 230 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,120 and darkness really stood out to me even more this 231 00:09:58,159 --> 00:10:01,799 past time. It feels like that first that first note 232 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,679 of thus Spake Zarathustra, it hits that into like thirty 233 00:10:05,799 --> 00:10:07,679 you know, it feels like to me, like two minutes 234 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,600 of blackness. It's probably not that much, but I think 235 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,960 the first place to start to me, is this this 236 00:10:13,039 --> 00:10:17,360 opening music that we hear, thus spake Zarathustra, because there 237 00:10:17,399 --> 00:10:21,080 is significance behind exactly who is Zarathustra. So maybe you 238 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,240 can just start there with the music and what it references, 239 00:10:24,279 --> 00:10:26,720 and we'll see where it goes from that point. 240 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 3: So that's a reference to Nietzsche, who wrote the book 241 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:36,039 The Spake Zarathustra, and it also refers to Wagner and 242 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,799 hints the Wagner you know film sequence that we hear. 243 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 4: And that's odd because you know, that's kind of like 244 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,159 usually associated with a tiny mustache man, So it's kind 245 00:10:46,159 --> 00:10:48,960 of odd that we would see that in this film. 246 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,480 I'm not saying it necessarily means that, but I'm just 247 00:10:51,519 --> 00:10:53,600 saying that it's usually associated with that. So I would 248 00:10:53,639 --> 00:10:59,360 say that the tiny mustache man element here ties into 249 00:10:59,399 --> 00:11:04,960 the notion of dialectical materialism or dialectical process and that's 250 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,720 kind of what Nietzsche, I think, was getting at with 251 00:11:06,799 --> 00:11:10,720 Eternal Return, is that the nature, the forces of nature 252 00:11:10,759 --> 00:11:15,279 are just sort of inherently violent and they that's what 253 00:11:15,399 --> 00:11:19,200 propels man's evolution in this worldview. So I think that's 254 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,240 the reason for the conscious choice of that and we 255 00:11:21,279 --> 00:11:23,639 do have that planetary alignment. It's in my view that 256 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:28,720 planetary alignment is you know, via Clerk. I think there 257 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:31,440 is something esoteric or a cult connected with that. 258 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 3: I don't know. 259 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,279 Speaker 4: Necessarily that he believed in astrology, but I think that 260 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,240 the idea here is that these kind of planetary alignments 261 00:11:39,279 --> 00:11:44,360 are part of a universe that, in that whole trilogy 262 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:49,519 that Clark wrote, is basically seeded by a form of 263 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:54,200 advanced alien technological life. So I think that what's going 264 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,360 on is that the monolith is essentially guiding human evolution, 265 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,720 and we see the alignant because this is the next 266 00:12:01,799 --> 00:12:04,159 phase of that of that evolution, and that's going to 267 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,639 be when the apes, you know, learn warfare and learn violence, 268 00:12:08,799 --> 00:12:11,759 and so again it makes sense because those are all Darwinian, 269 00:12:11,879 --> 00:12:15,600 Nietzschean and in a way kind of esoter agnostic themes. 270 00:12:16,799 --> 00:12:20,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, we see that alignment the Earth, the Sun, and 271 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,320 the moon. I think we see it's a different alignment 272 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,799 later on. But we see the planetary alignments three different 273 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,399 times in the movie, first here in the beginning, then 274 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:31,639 later on two other times. But each time we see 275 00:12:31,639 --> 00:12:34,960 that alignment, it coincides with the appearance of this monolith, 276 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,320 the black rectangle, the black square. There's a lot of 277 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,399 different meanings potential meanings for that, but I'll take whatever 278 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,639 you think your your your interpretation of the significance of 279 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,200 the monolith, not just what it does in terms of 280 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,360 shaping the course of man's evolution, but why do you 281 00:12:51,399 --> 00:12:55,080 think that particular shape, that particular structure was used to 282 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,200 represent the they take technology, the techneque behind that. 283 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 3: Talking about the way it turns out to look like 284 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:03,559 a pyramid. 285 00:13:04,159 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why. Yeah, when it first appears as the rectangle, 286 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,000 but that, yeah, you get that. That's so like. 287 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,879 Speaker 4: When when you see the monolith this from the cameras, 288 00:13:12,879 --> 00:13:14,559 not at the bottom, and it looks like a pyramid 289 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,000 with a no capstone and a light at the top. 290 00:13:17,039 --> 00:13:20,159 I think that's an intentional sort of you know, Luciferian images. 291 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 3: Is that what you're talking about? Are you talking about it? 292 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: I was just talking about the general appearance of the monolith, 293 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,559 but that that's something that I took that Yeah, yeah, 294 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,320 the thing with the pyramid is something I took from 295 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,159 your book, Like I had never thought of that on 296 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,240 my own, but that is part of your your analysis 297 00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:31,639 of it as well. 298 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 2: So you can dive. 299 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, really like to have 300 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,240 those weird angles and play with that. He does the 301 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,399 same kind of thing in Shining, where he'll play with 302 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,279 you know, tilting the angle of the camera to make 303 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,360 things look kind of bent and turned into different geometric formations. 304 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,320 And I know that we know he has that obsession 305 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,159 with that sort of geometric forms and all that because 306 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,039 of the maze and the shining, and because of the 307 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,919 diamonds that appear, you know, later on in two thousand 308 00:13:58,919 --> 00:14:01,279 and one, but the year You're right, the basic shape 309 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,559 of the monolith, I think is supposed to be a 310 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,320 TV and I read in it's a screen, it's and 311 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,679 I read it in that in the original screenplay, the 312 00:14:11,759 --> 00:14:15,840 Clark idea was to have images on the screen, and 313 00:14:15,879 --> 00:14:19,200 so the idea would be that this sort of unknown, 314 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,879 unexplained technology that just sort of appears because. 315 00:14:23,559 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 3: It's just simply the unknown. 316 00:14:25,159 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 4: It it's what propels or it's like the catalyst to 317 00:14:28,639 --> 00:14:31,039 you know, bring about the next phase of evolution. So 318 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:33,399 that's why I think what is supposed to be. But 319 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,639 of course there's a lot of other interpretations. You know, 320 00:14:35,679 --> 00:14:38,600 we did a season of TV show and one of 321 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,720 those episodes was with Jay Widener and he he thinks 322 00:14:41,759 --> 00:14:45,279 that it's it represents like the movie screen itself, right, 323 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,720 So like when it turns and if you turn it over, 324 00:14:48,799 --> 00:14:51,480 it's supposed to look like a movie screen, which entirely 325 00:14:51,519 --> 00:14:55,440 is entirely possible too, but it also has this idea 326 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,559 of just being a sort of black It's a form 327 00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,399 of a black cube. You know, we think of Saturn 328 00:14:59,399 --> 00:15:00,879 and the Saturn a in cube and a lot of 329 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:02,480 vessel turch traditions. 330 00:15:02,039 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 3: So it could it could have a reference to all 331 00:15:04,519 --> 00:15:05,080 those things. 332 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,879 Speaker 4: But yeah, I think it's supposed to be the cattlest 333 00:15:07,919 --> 00:15:11,480 for the next phase in evolutionary development, right, And. 334 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,039 Speaker 1: We see that and that first scene again, the scene 335 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,120 lasts like I always remember it as being two minutes long, 336 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:19,879 and then you know, I rewatched the movie and I 337 00:15:19,919 --> 00:15:21,840 always think to myself, oh, this is a lot longer 338 00:15:21,879 --> 00:15:24,480 than I thought. It's like a twenty minute extended seeing 339 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,279 meeting all these all these apes in Africa and them 340 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,399 kind of gets getting in a frenzy with the monolith 341 00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:34,879 and they kind of show the apes sort of dealing 342 00:15:34,919 --> 00:15:36,879 with a lot of uh, you know, they're dealing with 343 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,759 you know, cougars, jaguars, whatever, whatever lion type type creatures 344 00:15:40,759 --> 00:15:43,759 are out there eating them, dealing with water shortage, dealing 345 00:15:43,759 --> 00:15:47,080 with warring tribes. It's only when this monolith appears and 346 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,519 the one sort of alpha alpha ape goes and touches 347 00:15:50,559 --> 00:15:53,919 it that he seems to be sort of imbued with 348 00:15:54,039 --> 00:15:56,559 this extra knowledge. And it's not long after that where 349 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,600 we see him picking up the bone, smashing the bone, 350 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,320 and it's it's it's almost like the the monolith gave 351 00:16:01,399 --> 00:16:03,679 him the knowledge of, oh, hey, you can pick things 352 00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:05,879 up and and hurt people with them, and that might 353 00:16:05,919 --> 00:16:07,960 help your tribe. So what's your just what's your thought 354 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,159 about how just the the purpose behind the monolith intentionally 355 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:13,919 giving these apes is it? 356 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: Is it about technology that it's. 357 00:16:15,879 --> 00:16:17,279 Speaker 1: That it's sort of guiding them on or is it 358 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,200 more about a spiritual change in introducing the concept of violence. 359 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 4: It's both, right, It's like it's it's dominance through tech 360 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,919 and violence and tech can give you that dom uh, 361 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:30,480 that that upper hand. 362 00:16:30,279 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 3: That. 363 00:16:32,919 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 4: Survival of the fittest, right, So that's what we see 364 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,399 immediately with the alien or with the with the the monkeys, 365 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,679 is that you know, it's purely primal you know, survival 366 00:16:41,679 --> 00:16:43,080 of the fittest, and. 367 00:16:43,039 --> 00:16:46,759 Speaker 3: We immediately begin to see the alpha, you know, battle there. 368 00:16:46,559 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 4: Between the between the two, and this then splits the 369 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,000 company of the monkeys and we have like a whole 370 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,120 new I'm just going for a memory from that scene, like, 371 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,200 isn't there like a now a new alpha once he 372 00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:00,159 kills the other alpha and he kind of has dominance, right, 373 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,240 and then he celebrates and he throws the bone up, 374 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:05,880 and the bone, you know, becomes the spaceship. 375 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 3: So we jump ahead several thousand years. 376 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,519 Speaker 4: And I think that in that in that worldview, that's 377 00:17:11,559 --> 00:17:14,519 the idea is that violence, violence is part of the 378 00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:19,359 necessary dialectical process to propel the species to the next phase. 379 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,640 And that's part of the justification I think for the 380 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,960 worldview of people who have a lot of these iluminous 381 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:28,000 and gnostic types of world views, is that nature itself 382 00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:30,519 has within it the principle of death, and death is 383 00:17:30,559 --> 00:17:34,000 a natural part of the process of propelling us to 384 00:17:34,079 --> 00:17:36,119 the next phase. And that's you know, that's pretty fundamental 385 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,319 to Darwinism. And I think that Nietzschean company, right, that's 386 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:40,200 that's their whole thing. 387 00:17:40,319 --> 00:17:43,599 Speaker 3: So that's why Nietzsche was so important, and that's that's 388 00:17:43,599 --> 00:17:44,640 what I understand this to be. 389 00:17:45,279 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: And something else I noticed rewatching this this weekend that 390 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,279 that sort of alpha ape that that gets the bone 391 00:17:51,319 --> 00:17:53,839 and becomes the violent one, he starts his own sort 392 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,039 of like I don't know if it was already his tribe, 393 00:17:56,039 --> 00:17:58,519 but his whole tribe of ape they all, yeah, they 394 00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:00,440 all have they all have the bone. But what I 395 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,839 noticed this weekend watching is when when the bone, the 396 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,400 ones with the bones come and confront the dumb apes 397 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,599 that didn't get the monolith, you know, upgrade or whatever whatever, 398 00:18:09,079 --> 00:18:11,599 those those other apes are the bones that did touch 399 00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:14,960 the monolith, they're standing almost more. They're standing more straight up, 400 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,000 whereas the other ones are clearly more hunched over, which 401 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,599 I had never noticed before. So I do wonder if 402 00:18:19,599 --> 00:18:21,640 there's even a sort of a not not so hidden 403 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,240 I guess message there just about evolution and Darwinia and 404 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,359 its' included in the in the choice of sort of 405 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,319 making those bone apes the violent apes stand up straighter. 406 00:18:29,319 --> 00:18:30,359 I don't know if you ever noticed that. 407 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:31,759 Speaker 3: No, I had not. 408 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:36,839 Speaker 4: That's really cool, and uh, I do think there's yeah, 409 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,079 I remember the Uh. I was looking back at my 410 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,359 notes the reason that it shows the pyramid uncapped is 411 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,839 that it's the work is not complete, right, So the 412 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,559 great work is the perfecting of man in this hermetic 413 00:18:49,599 --> 00:18:54,400 alchemical tradition. So in this notion, you have to evolve, 414 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,079 and it may take millions of years and may take 415 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,119 ten thousand years, who knows, right, you have to evolve 416 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:03,039 to the stage where man can through tech achieve immortality, 417 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,079 or achieve godhood, or achieve the transcending of the physical limitations. 418 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,119 And so that's why I think at the beginning we 419 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,400 see the pyramid on capped. I just I wanted to 420 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,400 bring that back because I'm trying to remember why it 421 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,640 was it was uncapped. But then I was like, hey, okay, 422 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:20,079 so it's that it's that great work process. And yeah, 423 00:19:20,079 --> 00:19:23,039 I think you're right that the group that's going to 424 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,279 go into the future the next phase is the one 425 00:19:25,279 --> 00:19:28,519 that has the advantage. And I had not noticed that 426 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,319 they were standing more upright, But it makes perfect sense. 427 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 3: That's a great point. 428 00:19:32,519 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, And like you said, so he throws the bone 429 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,720 in the air and that sort of transmorse visually into 430 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,119 the space ships and the sort of can you comment 431 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,200 on the thing that I didn't really know much about, 432 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,279 but i'd heard seeing you mentioned it in your own commentary. 433 00:19:45,559 --> 00:19:47,039 Sort of when we see we see this a few 434 00:19:47,079 --> 00:19:49,200 times throughout the film, but when we first see these 435 00:19:49,279 --> 00:19:51,240 these space ships that are sort of orbiting the moon, 436 00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:53,680 these space stations, whatever they be, we see this sort 437 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,079 of turning wheel, and that is sort of a reference 438 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,599 to a symbol that we see in Buddhism and some 439 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:00,079 other sort of engined culture. 440 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,079 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is used in a lot of places, so 441 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,279 it's kind of hard to pick out exactly what the 442 00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:10,119 white the wheel might be referencing, but we do see 443 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,400 the wheel that comes up, not just in like Buddhism 444 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,119 and Hinduism, which is like the cycle of life and 445 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,839 like all the universes, like this never ending wheel that 446 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,519 recycles you. So it's like eternal return. That's would make 447 00:20:24,559 --> 00:20:26,400 sense too, because that's Nietzsche, and Nietzsche and taught the 448 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:31,200 doctrine of eternal return, and so there's that. But there's 449 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,319 also like the idea of Ezekiel's wheels, which I don't 450 00:20:34,319 --> 00:20:37,279 think it's an actual spaceship. I think it's supposed to 451 00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:39,839 be an angelic being, but a lot of people have 452 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,759 interpreted that to be you know, some sort of spaceship 453 00:20:42,839 --> 00:20:44,240 or something like that, so it could have. 454 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 2: That element aliens call back that one. 455 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, but here the ancient aliens are like, they're 456 00:20:50,759 --> 00:20:54,000 not aliens, they're advanced AI, right, which is which is 457 00:20:54,039 --> 00:20:56,319 able to if I recall, right, which is able to 458 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,240 talk about when you read twenty ten and when and 459 00:20:59,279 --> 00:21:02,759 then in three in one it's like, it's not aliens, 460 00:21:02,759 --> 00:21:07,079 it's just AI that's really advanced. And that's how starchild 461 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,920 right because at the end he's going to become the God, 462 00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:13,519 the godchild, right, so that's gonna be apotheosis, and so yeah, 463 00:21:13,559 --> 00:21:15,480 that's what I that's what I think on that. 464 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, so once we're sort of introduced into this this 465 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,039 we kind of get the direct line from the violence 466 00:21:22,039 --> 00:21:26,119 and the bone straight to spaceships and conquering that sort 467 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,799 of plane, if you will. And we learned that there 468 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,400 is which is really another thing that sort of hits 469 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,880 harder watching it now after the last couple of years, especially, 470 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,759 is that they've introduced a virus, a virus cover story 471 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,960 just to cover up for the fact that they found 472 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,559 this monolith on the moon. But everyone else I found 473 00:21:44,599 --> 00:21:46,279 it kind of interesting. I forgot the character's name, but 474 00:21:46,319 --> 00:21:48,279 you know, he's chatting with these other people and they're 475 00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:50,039 kind of saying, you know, hey, we we heard there 476 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:51,799 might be a virus or something, and he's just kind 477 00:21:51,799 --> 00:21:54,039 of like, no, no, we can't really, I can't really 478 00:21:54,079 --> 00:21:56,200 talk about it, which he basically says it in a 479 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,799 way that's confirming it, but in doing so, he's actually 480 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,640 just advancing the cover story, because the whole point is 481 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,480 to make it seem like they're hiding a virus when. 482 00:22:05,319 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 2: They're or hiding a viral outbreak, when really. 483 00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:10,519 Speaker 1: They're using that story to cover for this other thing 484 00:22:10,519 --> 00:22:12,400 that they found which they don't want to tell people about. 485 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,160 Did that that hit that any harder for you after 486 00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:17,480 just after seeing the last couple of years and seeing 487 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,480 this sort of play out in its own way. 488 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's interesting because I mean, you know, I 489 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,000 don't know, I'm not I know you're not saying this, 490 00:22:25,039 --> 00:22:27,920 but it's not necessarily a direct connect between. 491 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:28,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, like this and. 492 00:22:28,759 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 3: Like coopered COVID, right, right, But. 493 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,039 Speaker 2: It's kind of in the playbook in a sense. 494 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, the cover stories are always in the playbook. 495 00:22:38,519 --> 00:22:40,519 Speaker 4: That's a great point. And same thing that was it 496 00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:47,240 was going on in two thousand or in Spielberg's close accounts, 497 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:48,839 right the third coind. 498 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 2: E T two, there was like a there's a whole Yeah, there's. 499 00:22:51,599 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 4: A bio weapon cover story for the you know, so 500 00:22:54,799 --> 00:22:56,240 called alien invasion or whatever. 501 00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,799 Speaker 3: And they even fake the alien or. 502 00:22:59,759 --> 00:23:02,599 Speaker 4: The the bioweapon release, right, would have the dead cows 503 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,880 laid out in post encounter. So yeah, I think we 504 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,200 do see that idea of the government putting forth plausible 505 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,359 counter narratives that are cover stories, and Kuber would know 506 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,599 that because I mean, I don't know that Kuber necessarily 507 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,680 filmed the moon landing or anything like that. 508 00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:20,039 Speaker 3: I mean, that's a lot of speculation. 509 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,599 Speaker 4: But because on this film he did a consult with NASA, 510 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,240 I think he did have an understanding of how things 511 00:23:28,279 --> 00:23:31,319 work on, you know, in terms of the real power 512 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,039 structure of the shadow government, et cetera. 513 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,279 Speaker 3: So he knows that they have the ability to do that. 514 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,519 Speaker 4: And Clark being one of those people who in some degree, 515 00:23:39,559 --> 00:23:41,440 I don't know how far in terms of the inner 516 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,799 party circle he was, but he was definitely to a 517 00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:45,960 degree and insider. You know, Clark was hanging out with 518 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,599 people like Crowley, and he was hanging out with all 519 00:23:48,599 --> 00:23:52,640 the Royal Society elites and with himself pretty pretty nefarious 520 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:53,240 of a character. 521 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 3: So in my view, also, there's. 522 00:23:56,759 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 4: Probably some seeding of the notion that human human beings 523 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,599 are seated by some other foreign kind of space based entity, 524 00:24:05,759 --> 00:24:07,559 like in this it's going to be AI, but it 525 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,119 also might relate to something like panspermia. I mean, I 526 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,799 know that in this movie it's not panspermia, but it 527 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,000 might be a form of panspermia because you know, we 528 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,319 don't know well when starchild Is is created in the 529 00:24:19,319 --> 00:24:22,680 original story, he nukes Earth, right, so there's like this 530 00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:27,079 depopulation narrative because everything needs to start over, and so 531 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:32,119 there might be a seating, a panspermia seating when everything 532 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,559 starts over, which is that eternal return. So I think 533 00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:36,440 that when we get to starchild and we get a 534 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,880 new genesis at the end. I'm not trying to jump 535 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,960 too far the in but understand the end to know 536 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:41,480 what's going on. 537 00:24:41,519 --> 00:24:43,319 Speaker 2: This is this is a spoiler field review. 538 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: So if anyone hasn't seen the movie before watching this, 539 00:24:45,559 --> 00:24:47,599 that's their own problem. If you haven't seen the movie, 540 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,519 you probably stop this right now and go watch it 541 00:24:49,559 --> 00:24:50,480 and then and then return. 542 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 3: Well, I'm assuming everybody in your audience probably has. 543 00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: I would think so, I would think so at this point. 544 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,599 But yes, I mean that, yeah, the. 545 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 3: The am I bothering you though? I'm talking about the. 546 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: Oh no, not at all. 547 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 4: No, just because just because it's the notion of eternal return, 548 00:25:05,799 --> 00:25:08,119 because the universe starts over right, that's the point. 549 00:25:08,039 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 2: You know. 550 00:25:08,319 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: I presume anyone seeing this has seen the whole thing, 551 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,039 so that we can bounce around as much as as 552 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,039 much as we need to tell the tell the tale. 553 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 4: Also, I forgot to mention that, yeah, planets might also 554 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:24,400 relate to planetary overlords because they're picture again as I think, 555 00:25:24,519 --> 00:25:28,039 kind of sentient intelligences, and. 556 00:25:28,039 --> 00:25:30,279 Speaker 3: They're the ones that when they align, they lead. 557 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,559 Speaker 4: Mankind to the next phase of evolution. But I think 558 00:25:33,559 --> 00:25:35,720 they're supposed to be like advanced AI. I don't think 559 00:25:35,759 --> 00:25:37,920 that that's why Jupiter is such a big deal in 560 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,599 this right, because Jupiter, Jupiter is a big part of 561 00:25:41,599 --> 00:25:45,240 this alignment and the notion of the planetary gods leading 562 00:25:45,319 --> 00:25:48,200 man into an assent towards apotheosis. I mean, it's just 563 00:25:48,279 --> 00:25:53,440 kind of a classic, you know, esoteric chrometic alchemical philosophy. 564 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:58,039 Speaker 1: What is specific the specific meaning of Jupiter specifically, because 565 00:25:58,079 --> 00:26:00,440 they do and pretty much right after this scene is 566 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,640 when they find out the real story that they found 567 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,839 this monolith, and they go to see the monolith on 568 00:26:04,839 --> 00:26:07,920 the Moon and it emits this sort of this this 569 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,240 you know, deafening sound. But what they discover is that 570 00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:15,039 it's beaming this sound to Jupiter, which is why we 571 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,039 end up later going to the next sort of scene 572 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:18,079 and seeing that whole mission. 573 00:26:18,079 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 2: But why can you dig. 574 00:26:19,039 --> 00:26:21,559 Speaker 1: Further into the you know, specifically Jupiter, What is the 575 00:26:21,599 --> 00:26:22,839 significance of that planet? 576 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 4: And so in a lot of the occult narratives, and 577 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,079 I'm speculating here, and this will be an ocult narrative 578 00:26:31,079 --> 00:26:33,680 that Clark would have known about and probably would have accepted. 579 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 3: You have the idea that the god that controls. 580 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:44,799 Speaker 4: Our universe, our universe is in some way, probably Jupiter, 581 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,119 right the king of the planets. And that's just like 582 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,880 Saturn or Kronos. It's a it's a power or force 583 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,359 that limits and controls man. And so Jupiter corresponds to 584 00:26:56,759 --> 00:27:00,880 yah or the Christian god Yahweh, the Jewish god, and 585 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,519 he's a very limited kind of localized God, and so 586 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,079 for man to go to the next phase of evolution 587 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,720 has to break out of the limitations of the localized 588 00:27:10,839 --> 00:27:13,519 deities of this universe. And in a lot of the 589 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,680 esoteric circles, like in curly Circles, croly if our call 590 00:27:16,759 --> 00:27:21,240 talked about how Jupiter represents, you know, the imprisoning creator 591 00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:26,759 God of the Christian Jewish theology, and the real God 592 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,480 of the universe is the unknown, unexpressible beyond being God. 593 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,160 So in that way, it's a lot of a neoplatonic 594 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,599 type of mythology. But I think that the signals and 595 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,079 the transmissions refer to now it's time for you know, 596 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,640 a new transmission to bring man to the next phase. 597 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,440 So man's going to sort of begin to break out 598 00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:56,480 of the planetary deities that run this dimension or this 599 00:27:56,599 --> 00:27:59,279 universe to go to the next phase. And that's why 600 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,519 at the end we see that the planetary diamonds align. 601 00:28:02,839 --> 00:28:06,559 Those are the planetary what are called celestial intelligences in 602 00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:08,400 my view, right, Yeah. 603 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,839 Speaker 1: So I think that at this point when we're we're 604 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:15,240 finding out that they're going to Jupiter and we see 605 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,079 that again we see the planetary alignment. I think it's 606 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,799 right before we again see the minor monolith on the moon. So, 607 00:28:20,839 --> 00:28:23,519 like you said, it's again it's signifying a change in 608 00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:25,119 the movie. We're gonna go to a sort of a 609 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,559 different direction of the movie, but it's also signifying that 610 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,119 change in mankind, or that it's time for this other 611 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,559 change in mankind, just like we saw in the beginning 612 00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:35,319 with the apes standing upright and getting each other senses 613 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,920 with bones. So this does send us along into the 614 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,160 sort of the somewhat metior part of the movie. It's 615 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,240 weird because it's a long movie, but every section always 616 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,359 like feels small until I watch it and it's it's 617 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,319 twice as long as I thought. But we we see Henry. 618 00:28:48,319 --> 00:28:52,160 We meet Henry Bowman, who basically becomes our protagonists of sorts. 619 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,119 Here again we see more wheel symbology. He's kind of 620 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,559 like running around sort of almost on like a hamster 621 00:28:57,599 --> 00:29:01,279 wheel of sorts in the in the spaceh But ultimately 622 00:29:01,359 --> 00:29:03,599 what we learn in this in this whole section is 623 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,960 that it's there's Bowman, this other scientist, and these other 624 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,680 ones that are sort of cryogenically frozen or sleeping or 625 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,039 whatever technology they use for that, along with their other. 626 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 2: Companion named how how nine thousand. 627 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: So as they're kind of you know, transgressing towards Jupiter 628 00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:23,119 or beyond Jupiter to to sort of take this next 629 00:29:23,119 --> 00:29:26,160 step of man, they already have a next step in 630 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,720 a sense or what is a certain kind of technological 631 00:29:29,799 --> 00:29:33,480 leap with the AI technology. Again, this is another one 632 00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:36,279 of those things that hits harder a lot more today 633 00:29:36,319 --> 00:29:39,400 than it did even five ten years ago, where we see, 634 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,400 you know, people having the little chats with AI that 635 00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:46,599 call themselves demons and are are expressing sort of not 636 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:47,519 so great intent. 637 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,039 Speaker 2: So how definitely. 638 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,839 Speaker 1: Strikes a little bit more of acord to me after 639 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,079 seeing conversations with like chat GBT and Dan and stuff 640 00:29:54,119 --> 00:29:55,880 like that. But maybe you can just take it fromhever 641 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,880 you want there just in terms of what they show 642 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,240 us in terms of the space, and also how they 643 00:30:01,279 --> 00:30:04,079 introduce how and the and how we're supposed to see 644 00:30:04,079 --> 00:30:07,119 this artificial intelligence of how as it relates to the 645 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,079 sort of evolution of man that we've been seeing the 646 00:30:09,079 --> 00:30:09,599 whole time. 647 00:30:10,039 --> 00:30:13,599 Speaker 4: All right, So now man is beyond He's gone beyond 648 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,519 the territorial, terrestrial limitations of being confined to the Earth, 649 00:30:17,599 --> 00:30:20,480 right He's floating in space and in space. He kind 650 00:30:20,519 --> 00:30:22,720 of can float, right, So this is an image of 651 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,359 the beginning to the comnion of overcoming the limitations and 652 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:27,240 things like gravity. 653 00:30:27,359 --> 00:30:30,559 Speaker 1: It's also when things start getting pretty phallic in the 654 00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:32,200 imagery with the spaceship well and then. 655 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,039 Speaker 4: Yeah, the idea is that the just as man was 656 00:30:35,079 --> 00:30:37,559 seated on Earth, man is going to seed the universe, 657 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,720 and the birth at the end of starchild right is 658 00:30:40,759 --> 00:30:45,480 the production of that seminole seed. Let me read a 659 00:30:45,599 --> 00:30:49,200 quick few sections in the cover this the uncapped pyramid 660 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,720 in an alchemical sense, signifies. 661 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 3: The lack of the completion of the Great Work. 662 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,519 Speaker 4: The grand plan is to transmit based matter into goal, 663 00:30:56,559 --> 00:30:58,920 which signifies both the inner journey of the psyche and 664 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,480 it's a scent back to God or the soul back 665 00:31:01,519 --> 00:31:04,160 to the One in Neoplatonism, or the after death journey 666 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,519 of the gnostics through the planetary spheres. In the macro sense, 667 00:31:07,559 --> 00:31:09,759 of great work is the transformation of the entire universe 668 00:31:09,799 --> 00:31:13,839 into the omega point of Tahar de Schardine or of Hegel, 669 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,160 where the totality of reality becomes conscious of itself as 670 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,920 conscious and inanimate matter becomes merged into psyche, realizing its 671 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,559 own inert potentiality and God in process. 672 00:31:26,759 --> 00:31:28,799 Speaker 3: Right, So this is where we get to starchild. 673 00:31:28,839 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 4: The universe has within it the ability to produce, and 674 00:31:31,039 --> 00:31:34,160 so Halman will be one of these figures, one of these. 675 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,160 How is the figure that will that's an emergent day 676 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,279 sex masion from within, the God from within that will 677 00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:42,359 eventually in three thousand and one unite with. 678 00:31:43,839 --> 00:31:47,279 Speaker 3: How to become the new deity Helman with the apes. 679 00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:49,799 Speaker 4: Early man was limited, cage and bound by the forces 680 00:31:49,799 --> 00:31:53,599 of nature, time and space. In space age Man has 681 00:31:53,599 --> 00:31:56,759 overcome gravity, floating about the universe, no longer hindered by 682 00:31:56,759 --> 00:32:01,440 the limitations of hunger, resources, and mass. This is the 683 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,200 middle stage of Man's gradual ascent out of the cage 684 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,440 of the box of time and space, which is precisely 685 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:07,720 what the monolith signifies. 686 00:32:07,759 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 3: In part. 687 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,799 Speaker 4: This is why the monolith becomes a kind of coffin 688 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,839 box for Bowman in the climax. For Kuber, the evolutionary 689 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,920 scent is premised on the presubsistion of perpetual progress through technology, 690 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,920 overcoming limitations of space and body hunger by the time 691 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,480 where in space is gone, gravity is gone, and through 692 00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:29,279 the krygenic sleep sleeppods time is beginning to be mastered. 693 00:32:29,319 --> 00:32:30,279 Speaker 3: That was my take on that. 694 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,119 Speaker 1: And I think it's pretty interesting too that when we're 695 00:32:36,119 --> 00:32:38,599 out in space, they really and when we're first meeting How, 696 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,119 at least to me, they really do seem to present 697 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,279 How from the very beginning really as having a personality. 698 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,799 There's that scene where he kind of talks about how 699 00:32:47,839 --> 00:32:50,319 he was born or first created I guess in nineteen 700 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,519 ninety two, and he has that songs, that Daisy song 701 00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:55,599 that gets a lot it's a lot weirder in Creeper 702 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,839 Year when he sings it later on. But do you 703 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,839 think that they made it sort of an an intentional 704 00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:05,799 decision to to make How almost he ses almost likable 705 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,000 in a way, just the way he's he's sort of 706 00:33:08,079 --> 00:33:10,880 is able to use sarcasm, and and even even when 707 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,000 he's gone bad and his and has sort of turned 708 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,119 on the crew, I can't help but get a kick 709 00:33:15,119 --> 00:33:16,920 out of Hell pretty much the whole time till till 710 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:18,640 his very end. So I'm just just curious on your 711 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,279 overall thoughts on the presentation of How. 712 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:22,599 Speaker 3: Yeah. 713 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,599 Speaker 4: I think there's this idea that humanity is evolving to 714 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,440 become more robotic, in this narrative, and the robot is 715 00:33:29,599 --> 00:33:31,519 evolving to become more and more human, and that's going 716 00:33:31,559 --> 00:33:34,759 to lead to that emergence, right or that merging at 717 00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:41,319 the end. How is funny because yeah, he has this 718 00:33:41,319 --> 00:33:43,359 this character that you're mentioning, but he also speaks to 719 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,119 himself as perfect because he's free from all human error. 720 00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:49,119 And that's going to be the challenge right between the 721 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,599 next phase of human evolution as to who's going to 722 00:33:51,759 --> 00:33:56,119 win in this Darwinian srival to fittest battle between How 723 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:02,000 or Bowman. And I think that the solution ultimately here 724 00:34:02,039 --> 00:34:04,119 is that they're gonna have to It's almost like a 725 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,159 gnostic merging, like of two principles, the male principle to 726 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:10,559 the feminine principle. I mean, How's not feminine, but he's 727 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,960 He might represent the two elements that are. 728 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 3: Needed for the synthesis, because a lot of this relates to. 729 00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 4: Alchemy, even Hegelianism is very premised on alchemy. So you 730 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,800 have thesis, you have antithesis, and then you have the 731 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,480 synthesis of the two. And so here you have Man, 732 00:34:26,559 --> 00:34:29,159 you have the robot the AI and then they eventually 733 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:32,760 emerged to be that synthesis I'm trying to remember what 734 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,119 all I went to mine now, So so I got 735 00:34:34,119 --> 00:34:34,679 into a bunch. 736 00:34:34,559 --> 00:34:36,199 Speaker 3: Of Darpo stuff in the history of AI. 737 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,519 Speaker 4: And yeah, I think your right to point that point 738 00:34:40,519 --> 00:34:43,559 out that this movie is really prescient for it right 739 00:34:43,599 --> 00:34:45,039 now because we have. 740 00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 3: The emerging of AI. In my view, I don't really 741 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,119 think it's as advanced as they're saying. It is just 742 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:51,480 my opinion it seems to be. 743 00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 4: I mean, maybe they have a secret version of it 744 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,559 that's really advanced, but like the stuff that's out there 745 00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:58,199 chat GPT is kind of ridiculous, doesn't seem to be 746 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,239 that it seems to spit out based what Google spits 747 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:02,400 out when I search Google. 748 00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:06,159 Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm not sure. 749 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 4: What to say about that other than that it's kind 750 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,840 of like diosex motion again that the deity of this 751 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,320 universe emerges from within the universe and then can start 752 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,400 new universes. So and by the way, if you if 753 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,360 you've watched, if you haven't watched twenty ten in a 754 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,320 long time, I highly recommend watching that one because there's 755 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,719 a lot of really deep eslitary Luciferian elements in twenty 756 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,719 ten that are really clear. At the end of the movie, 757 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,360 and it's it's actually about the dialectic of the Cold 758 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,000 War and how out of the Cold War we're going 759 00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:37,920 to get this new sentences between capitalism and communism, right 760 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:43,639 that produces the technocratic era of space travel and seeding 761 00:35:43,639 --> 00:35:44,679 the other planets. 762 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: It's funny because I've never actually seen I'd read all 763 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,440 the books way back in the day, but I've never 764 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,280 actually seen twenty ten. And last night it popped up 765 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,159 and after I watched the movie, and I was about 766 00:35:52,199 --> 00:35:54,599 to go press it, but then I was like three dollars. 767 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:55,199 Speaker 2: And I was like, nah, I don't know if I want 768 00:35:55,199 --> 00:35:56,719 to play three dollars. But that's before I knew it 769 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:57,760 was good. So it's actually good. 770 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 3: Ill paid well, I was boring. I wouldn't say it's 771 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,519 a good movie. It's really not as good as. 772 00:36:02,559 --> 00:36:05,079 Speaker 1: It's worth watching for analysis purposes. Might not be the 773 00:36:05,079 --> 00:36:05,559 same as. 774 00:36:05,559 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 4: Good alvis it's really perfect at the end, and a 775 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,679 lot of the stuff that because when I wrote this analysis, 776 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,440 I had not Back when I wrote this, I didn't 777 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:16,360 watch twenty ten yet. 778 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 3: I mean i'd seen it maybe back in high school. 779 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,400 I didn't remember if I was really boring and went 780 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:20,039 to sleep. 781 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,119 Speaker 4: And then when I wrote this analysis of two thousand 782 00:36:24,119 --> 00:36:26,519 and one, I had not yet rewatched twenty ten. 783 00:36:27,079 --> 00:36:27,599 Speaker 3: Jamie and I. 784 00:36:27,599 --> 00:36:29,320 Speaker 4: Rewatched it, I think last year, and we did a 785 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,239 podcast on it in our Alien series, and I was 786 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:34,400 blown away, like this is. 787 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:39,039 Speaker 3: Like this is really really like really relevant. And I've 788 00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:41,320 not read the second book, so I don't know. 789 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:48,119 Speaker 4: How close it follows that book, but it's you should 790 00:36:48,159 --> 00:36:49,760 definitely watch it for analysis purpose. 791 00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: That might be one for when the wife isn't isn't 792 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,679 around and I don't have to border with it. But 793 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,119 back into like the confrontation with How, because basically Bowman 794 00:36:58,199 --> 00:37:01,039 I forget, I forgot the other astronauts, but he starts 795 00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:03,320 to get the sense that that something's up with How, 796 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,239 that maybe his programmings off or or something like that. 797 00:37:06,639 --> 00:37:09,039 And they have a sort of a secret meeting because 798 00:37:09,079 --> 00:37:12,400 Hall has ears everywhere except in these this certain pod. 799 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 2: They go into which. 800 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: Which comes back a little bit later, but they kind 801 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,440 of go in and and we we kind of see 802 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,480 it from How's perspective, which I think is really cool, 803 00:37:19,559 --> 00:37:21,599 just in the filmmaking sense. We see them in there 804 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,000 sort of talking, and we both see them, you know, 805 00:37:24,039 --> 00:37:25,280 we hear the words but there's also a. 806 00:37:25,199 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 2: Part where we can kind of just see what house what. 807 00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:30,199 Speaker 1: We later find out that How sees that Uh in 808 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,199 the the sort of big reveal, which is like one 809 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,679 of my favorite parts of the movie, when well, we'll 810 00:37:34,679 --> 00:37:36,440 just kind of skip to it, but where both Bowman 811 00:37:37,079 --> 00:37:40,559 How basically kills Bowman's, Bowman's partner as well as everyone 812 00:37:40,559 --> 00:37:42,760 else on board. So it's it's basically just down to 813 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,440 down to Uh Bowman and he's talking to Hall and 814 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,800 he's saying and How's like, Uh, I kind of have 815 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,639 a feeling you're gonna shut me down. And Bowman's just like, 816 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,239 what do you mean, why what are you talking about? 817 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 3: How? 818 00:37:53,639 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 1: And How's like, dude, I can read lips pretty much. 819 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,599 And that's when you see this look. The look on 820 00:37:58,639 --> 00:38:00,880 Bowman's face when he finds that out is just like 821 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,719 it's like getting caught texting the wrong girl or something. 822 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,719 He just like he knows he's son, but it's so 823 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,480 not one of those things. When I watched the movie 824 00:38:07,519 --> 00:38:09,400 back it they stay on him to hit the shot 825 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,199 of him for like two minutes, where as he just 826 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,000 processes how fucked he is that Hal has not only 827 00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:17,559 killed his crewmates but knows that he wants to shut 828 00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:22,320 him down. But yeah, but luckily, you know, Bowman is 829 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,440 is pretty smart and Hal and so he quickly figures out, well, 830 00:38:25,519 --> 00:38:27,760 I'll just go in the escape patch. And what I 831 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,679 really love about the scene is he's slowly going through 832 00:38:29,679 --> 00:38:31,199 these and how's like, you don't have a helmet, you 833 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,199 can't do that. He eventually is able to get in there, 834 00:38:33,199 --> 00:38:35,760 and then through a whole scene that's worth watching him 835 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,840 getting him back into the spaceship. But I think one 836 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:39,880 of my favorite parts here of the movie going in 837 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,639 is is once Bowman is back in the ship, and 838 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,440 you know, even though Hall has arms and eyes and 839 00:38:45,679 --> 00:38:47,519 all that stuff, and that doesn't have doesn't have arm, 840 00:38:47,559 --> 00:38:49,960 has eyes and ears, he doesn't have arms or anything 841 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,599 like that. He can't he can't touch Bowman. So once 842 00:38:52,639 --> 00:38:54,800 Bowman's back in the ship, Hall is pretty much fucked 843 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,360 at that point. And this is when Hal goes from 844 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,400 sort of perfect computer mode to he he starts to 845 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,920 sort of like wine and rationalize. It's I thought of 846 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,360 it like a couple who had just gotten into a fight. 847 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,159 Speaker 2: And then he. 848 00:39:08,119 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: Starts to kind of say, like, hold on, I know 849 00:39:10,039 --> 00:39:12,559 I got a little crazy out there. Before, but I'm 850 00:39:12,599 --> 00:39:15,079 better now, he starts saying, I'm better now, and I 851 00:39:15,159 --> 00:39:18,039 laughed out loud. When he even suggests to Bowman, he says, 852 00:39:18,119 --> 00:39:19,840 why don't you just take a stress pill. 853 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 2: And calm down there. 854 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: I don't really have a question here, but I just 855 00:39:23,559 --> 00:39:25,079 I just wanted to get your own, your own thoughts 856 00:39:25,119 --> 00:39:28,960 on on that whole interaction between Bowman and how as 857 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,320 a Bowman is preparing to uh to send how to 858 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:32,360 uh yeah, this is on. 859 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:32,800 Speaker 2: His way. 860 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 4: Referring back to the battle between the two monkeys at 861 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,519 the beginning, right, So now we have two new versions 862 00:39:39,519 --> 00:39:42,920 of monkeys, and Al's not a monkey, but he's a 863 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,760 monkey compared to where the deity of this universe is 864 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:48,239 at the end. 865 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 3: And there's a great quote by Clark. Clark was reported 866 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,960 to have said, quote, it may be that our role on. 867 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 4: The planet of Earth is to not worship God, but 868 00:39:57,519 --> 00:39:59,920 to create God. And this is in reference just to 869 00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:01,800 he wrote called the Final Query. 870 00:40:03,559 --> 00:40:05,559 Speaker 3: The screenplight writer H. 871 00:40:06,519 --> 00:40:09,599 Speaker 4: Clark, the co writer, allowed significant changes to the script 872 00:40:09,639 --> 00:40:13,159 by Kubrick, with, for example, the TV screen monolith. Another 873 00:40:13,159 --> 00:40:17,840 significant change is the ending where Sarchald uses the satellite 874 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,719 systems to blow up the planet. And so Man, we 875 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,960 find out, is an evolutionary error or an abortion. 876 00:40:23,679 --> 00:40:25,280 Speaker 3: That's not supposed to be. We find this, by the way, 877 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:26,239 a lot of science. 878 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 4: Fiction where the accidental or just sort of random emergence 879 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,159 of man is a is a mistake that needs to 880 00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:36,840 be corrected, and man is an abortion. In fact, if 881 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,000 you watch the Alien series, that's actually really prevalent in 882 00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:45,280 the the Alien about really Scott Alien mythos like man 883 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,719 is this is this accidental genetic modification creation from the 884 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,079 you know, experiments of the space jockeys or whatever. 885 00:40:54,159 --> 00:40:55,800 Speaker 3: And so that's that. We find this a lot in 886 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:57,119 science fiction, and that's why. 887 00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: And the Alien is kind of like almost that the 888 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,960 virus of the elite that is just there to wipe 889 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:03,559 out the error. 890 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's like the ultimate deepop weapon exactly. So 891 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,440 so here we think, oh, actually, maybe how's going to 892 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,239 do that? Right, because the next phase is going to 893 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,840 be as they're in this ship and they've been shot 894 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:19,159 out like seminal emission right into the universe literally, right, 895 00:41:19,159 --> 00:41:20,960 it's supposed to I think it is supposed to mean that, 896 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:23,440 And so we have this sort of Bible of fittest 897 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,559 battle within the sperm as to see who's going to win, 898 00:41:27,679 --> 00:41:29,679 and we think that it's going to be how it's 899 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,800 going to depopulate Bowman and then how will you know, 900 00:41:34,199 --> 00:41:38,000 I guess go into the beyond through the stargate or whatever, 901 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,800 and he'll become the new God or something like that. 902 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:45,559 But it's it's not going to go in that direction. Yeah, 903 00:41:45,559 --> 00:41:47,119 that's all I can remember about that party. 904 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: Well, I'm curious what you think about because something I 905 00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:52,519 always thought to myself and then watching but watching back, 906 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,679 it kind of sends mixed messages almost with How. I 907 00:41:55,159 --> 00:41:58,239 wonder do you think that there is because How they 908 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,920 say How was born or created in nineteen ninety two, 909 00:42:01,039 --> 00:42:04,159 so the technology for Hall has been around this whole time, 910 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:08,199 and this entire time. Hol's never I presume, ever killed 911 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,079 anybody or turned on a crew or anything like that. 912 00:42:10,119 --> 00:42:12,119 So it seems like he's been around for almost thirty 913 00:42:12,199 --> 00:42:14,800 years here. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts 914 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,639 about whether the emergence of the monolith at this time 915 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,960 has anything to do with sort of How's change in consciousness. 916 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 2: If that sort of upgraded Hol. 917 00:42:23,599 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: That's what I think on one side, But then on 918 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:26,920 the other side, you see how get defeated. 919 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 2: So it kind of I kind of go both ways 920 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:29,960 on that, Yeah. 921 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 3: Because two thousand and one is supposed to be the Well, 922 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,199 how isn't actually defeated? 923 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,039 Speaker 2: That's the thing, right, Yeah, in the moment, it seems 924 00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:38,119 so in the moment. 925 00:42:38,079 --> 00:42:38,639 Speaker 3: Right exactly. 926 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,800 Speaker 4: So if yeah, so if it's nineteen ninety two, then 927 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,559 you know, they probably guesstimated that it would take tenure 928 00:42:46,679 --> 00:42:51,559 for the AI to develop to be you know, that advanced. 929 00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:54,000 Of course, it wasn't that in two thousand and one 930 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,679 that we know of, right, unless we live in some 931 00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,880 sort of I don't know AI created simulation universe that 932 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,760 maybe in two thousand and one, right, maybe Y two 933 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,519 K really was the end of the universe and we're 934 00:43:04,559 --> 00:43:06,679 all actually in we've. 935 00:43:06,519 --> 00:43:07,760 Speaker 3: Been in a house simul. 936 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 2: Victorian Victorian era era bedroom since then. Out right, go ahead, no, no, 937 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,119 go ahead? Did you have something else on the hell thing? Yeah? 938 00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:20,760 Speaker 1: Because I like, I just I wonder if the defeat 939 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,360 of Hal it almost see it almost seems like an 940 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,760 uplifting thing, the defeat of Hall at first, where he 941 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,679 just Bowman just goes in and sort of like slowly 942 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,960 removes the heart, which is probably my favorite scene in 943 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:31,440 the movie besides the next scene that will kind to 944 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,239 but where as Halls as he's talking. As hallis talking 945 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,599 to him, he's pulling out the hard drives. Hal's voice 946 00:43:37,599 --> 00:43:40,760 is getting slower and more and then he sings that 947 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:42,679 I think that's my favorite, one of my favorite lines 948 00:43:42,679 --> 00:43:44,360 in the movie, when he's singing that daisy song and 949 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:44,599 he just. 950 00:43:44,599 --> 00:43:47,119 Speaker 2: Does just more and more like this. 951 00:43:48,079 --> 00:43:51,079 Speaker 1: But it does seem like for the moment anyway, that 952 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,159 man has has triumphed over AI. 953 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,280 Speaker 2: So for a brief period which doesn't last too. 954 00:43:55,199 --> 00:43:57,679 Speaker 1: Long, it almost seems like in some way man is 955 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,679 superior to machine, or man has that smarted machine or 956 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,400 could maybe could maybe actually last longer than than the machine. 957 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,320 Speaker 3: How can Yeah, I think it's a question of dominance. 958 00:44:06,519 --> 00:44:08,840 Speaker 4: Is it is it going to be a future dominated 959 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:10,840 by tech and AI or is it a future just 960 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:11,199 gonna be. 961 00:44:11,159 --> 00:44:13,880 Speaker 3: Dominated by man achieving and controlling the tech? 962 00:44:14,039 --> 00:44:17,280 Speaker 4: Right, Because God, God in this world is the tech, 963 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:22,320 the AI that's created by man. Like Clark said, and 964 00:44:22,599 --> 00:44:26,440 in this alchemical trans self transformational narrative, here, by the 965 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,400 time we get to this key point, now we're at 966 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,840 the next the next juncture. Right, That's why it was 967 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:35,039 so important that we see the next we skip from 968 00:44:35,039 --> 00:44:37,320 the monkeys to hear because this is the next leap, 969 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,760 like are we going to go into again an AI 970 00:44:40,079 --> 00:44:43,519 dominated future or that's a or a man dominated pure 971 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,920 And that's in a lot of sci fi too, even 972 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,639 from this time in the Dune narrative, right, Like in 973 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,000 Dune you have the butler Arey and Jahad, which banned 974 00:44:52,039 --> 00:44:58,039 the banned AI because when in Dune when AI got loose, 975 00:44:58,119 --> 00:45:00,880 it enslaved mankind had to have this against the AI 976 00:45:01,599 --> 00:45:04,840 and then it's banned in the future. Right, So yeah, 977 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,079 there's a prevalent sort of narrative I think at the 978 00:45:07,199 --> 00:45:08,119 in the sci fi of. 979 00:45:08,079 --> 00:45:12,519 Speaker 3: The sixties and seventies fifty sixty seventies so and in 980 00:45:12,599 --> 00:45:15,119 ways I guess it was it was prescient because here 981 00:45:15,159 --> 00:45:16,840 we are and I don't know. 982 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 4: I don't believe that AI is like, you know, going 983 00:45:19,039 --> 00:45:21,719 to be God or it can come alive or become conscious, 984 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:23,719 because I don't believe that that even makes any sense, 985 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:28,039 because no matter how many additions to an algorithm that 986 00:45:28,079 --> 00:45:29,840 you put in there to make it more complex, it's 987 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:30,599 still an algorithm. 988 00:45:30,599 --> 00:45:31,599 Speaker 3: It's not conscious. 989 00:45:32,159 --> 00:45:32,320 Speaker 1: Uh. 990 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,519 Speaker 4: There's a really good essay that covers this. It's that 991 00:45:34,599 --> 00:45:36,679 critiqued it a long time a long time ago, called 992 00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:42,239 A Mind's Machines in Girdell. It's an essay that you 993 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,320 could read it at Oxford. It's just a philosophical critique 994 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:50,719 of the impossibility of AI becoming conscious or self aware. 995 00:45:51,639 --> 00:45:54,000 It's a philosophical argument, which I think is pretty good. So, 996 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,440 but I do think it's possible that, you know, the 997 00:45:56,519 --> 00:45:59,800 sort of merging that we see in this story and 998 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:03,960 liketer on in the trilogy is very possible that man 999 00:46:04,039 --> 00:46:07,119 can you know, extend his life and you can have 1000 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,920 these sort of cyborg android type situations. I mean, that's 1001 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,239 pretty much always already here, right, So that I think 1002 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:12,920 is possible. 1003 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,960 Speaker 3: But I don't think that it's like a data sex 1004 00:46:16,039 --> 00:46:17,599 motion of all. 1005 00:46:17,559 --> 00:46:19,400 Speaker 1: Right, well, this is where this is kind of the 1006 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,199 point where the movie goes from. If you were just 1007 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,440 watching it for the first time, it almost could just 1008 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,199 be sort of any any standard fare sci fi sort 1009 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,079 of film, you know, people in space fighting robots or 1010 00:46:31,079 --> 00:46:34,559 what have you. And then things go completely completely off 1011 00:46:34,559 --> 00:46:38,519 the wall. So right after Bowman defeats hal he finds 1012 00:46:38,559 --> 00:46:42,320 the transmission that was designed not to make them aware 1013 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:46,440 of the real mission once once they kind of arrived, 1014 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,360 so they they're they're they defeat Hall right as he's 1015 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,639 getting to Jupiter and like Phobos and all the moons 1016 00:46:51,679 --> 00:46:53,880 of Jupiter planets, and the message this is not a 1017 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:55,440 point where I laughed. Where you're watching it too, the 1018 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,159 message is like, well, now that you're here with your 1019 00:46:57,159 --> 00:46:59,039 whole crew, and how we can tell you the real thing? 1020 00:46:59,119 --> 00:47:01,480 He's just like again they just cut to Bowman. That 1021 00:47:01,559 --> 00:47:02,880 just looks like, what the fuck. 1022 00:47:02,639 --> 00:47:05,599 Speaker 2: Am I doing all the way out here with this program? 1023 00:47:05,679 --> 00:47:05,880 Speaker 3: Right? 1024 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:07,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like they didn't they knew they were 1025 00:47:07,519 --> 00:47:08,480 out there. They didn't I don't know what. 1026 00:47:08,519 --> 00:47:10,119 Speaker 1: They didn't really say what the cover story was, but 1027 00:47:10,159 --> 00:47:12,800 apparently the crew didn't know any of the real reason 1028 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:14,559 that they were out there. And that's the scene where 1029 00:47:14,559 --> 00:47:17,719 the video the guy from that we saw earlier explains 1030 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,119 about the monolith, explain like Bowman didn't know any of 1031 00:47:20,119 --> 00:47:23,199 this shit before that scene, which I found pretty interesting too, 1032 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,719 especially because his reaction is, well, his first reaction is 1033 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,960 it's almost like simultaneous with the viewer of the film, 1034 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,159 and this is where it's like, okay, kind of what 1035 00:47:33,199 --> 00:47:36,199 you said earlier about does the monolith almost represent the 1036 00:47:36,199 --> 00:47:38,639 movie because right at this moment is when the monolith 1037 00:47:38,679 --> 00:47:41,320 appears again, and this is where things get get super trippy, 1038 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,719 and Bowman sees the monolith. I guess he's like kind 1039 00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:46,719 of looking out of the spaceship. The viewer sees the monolith, 1040 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,000 so we it kind of seems like we're seeing it 1041 00:47:48,079 --> 00:47:50,639 through through Bowman's point of view. But the monolith also 1042 00:47:50,679 --> 00:47:52,920 takes these sort of different shapes that at times it 1043 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,159 feels like the monolith is sort of enveloping the viewer, 1044 00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,679 enveloping you know, us. So in some ways that does 1045 00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,039 play to the fact that it is representing the movie itself, 1046 00:48:02,039 --> 00:48:04,000 because it is it's sort of like sometimes you just, 1047 00:48:04,159 --> 00:48:06,719 especially if you've enough big enough screen, you you might 1048 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:07,320 actually feel like. 1049 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,679 Speaker 2: You're inside the movie at some point. So but Bowman, I. 1050 00:48:10,599 --> 00:48:13,679 Speaker 1: Guess they don't really explain anything about what Bowman is doing. 1051 00:48:13,679 --> 00:48:15,119 I don't think he speaks another word the rest of 1052 00:48:15,119 --> 00:48:17,599 the movie. Actually, he just sort of looks as we're 1053 00:48:17,639 --> 00:48:20,480 looking at the visual effects, at the awe of everything. 1054 00:48:20,559 --> 00:48:24,079 And then this is when it's not clear to me 1055 00:48:24,199 --> 00:48:26,159 if the monolith is just guiding him or if he 1056 00:48:26,159 --> 00:48:28,599 even like goes inside the monolith, but basically he ends 1057 00:48:28,639 --> 00:48:29,480 up going through. 1058 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,480 Speaker 2: What can only be described as like a vortex. What's that? 1059 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, he's going And it's even clearer in this in 1060 00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,440 the next, the next, and twenty ten, it's he's going 1061 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,199 into the monolith, because he will in the next one too. 1062 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the monolith basically sends him down this this 1063 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,360 crazy vortex and just just with pretty much every other 1064 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,119 scene in this movie, I remember it as two minutes, 1065 00:48:50,159 --> 00:48:52,480 and it's like twenty. It's like, it's like twenty minutes 1066 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:57,159 of him seeing various shit, like perfect geometry, various colors 1067 00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,840 those who have partaken and certain psychedelics might see a 1068 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:00,920 lot of it is familiar. 1069 00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:03,840 Speaker 2: It's really just visually stunning. 1070 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:05,239 Speaker 1: I think this is the This is the part of 1071 00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,679 the movie where I think when I was younger, I 1072 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:09,679 just sort of turned my brain off and said, well, 1073 00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,920 this part's just supposed to look cool. This part is 1074 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,840 just this is where I don't know what the fuck's 1075 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,559 going on. So I'm not gonna live right exactly like 1076 00:49:16,639 --> 00:49:20,159 whoa man? So scrab another bong hit and just enjoy this. 1077 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,239 But you know, as we know, with Kubrick's filmmaking in general, 1078 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,559 and with this film being no exception, nothing is by accident, 1079 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,280 nothing is by chance. Yes it does look cool, but 1080 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,239 there's meaning behind it all. So I'll let you pick 1081 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,440 up wherever you like. Just what is your interpretation of 1082 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,920 this entire Like it's literally like a twenty twenty five 1083 00:49:38,039 --> 00:49:40,760 minute sequence of him going through not just these like 1084 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,760 visuals of the lights and but also there's there's you know, 1085 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,440 there's there's a lot in there. There's the up close 1086 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,639 of his eyes being illuminated. And eventually once he gets 1087 00:49:48,639 --> 00:49:51,519 through the vortex, as you mentioned earlier, if you can 1088 00:49:51,559 --> 00:49:54,639 call it being through, he sees these sort of like landscapes. 1089 00:49:54,679 --> 00:49:56,679 It almost looks like is he on another planet or 1090 00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,159 is he seeing the formation of Earth. It's time has 1091 00:50:00,159 --> 00:50:03,639 now been able to become confusing as well, but eventually, 1092 00:50:03,639 --> 00:50:05,199 like at the end there he does also see those 1093 00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,599 the seven sort of it's like perfect sort of triangles 1094 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:10,039 or pyramids or diamonds or whatever. 1095 00:50:10,119 --> 00:50:11,440 Speaker 3: The pics. 1096 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,119 Speaker 4: I think they're supposed to represent the planetary deities, right, 1097 00:50:15,159 --> 00:50:17,760 because in the classical world you have seven planetary deities. 1098 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,400 So Kubrick said, quote, I will say that the god 1099 00:50:21,519 --> 00:50:23,599 concept is definitely at the heart of two thousand and 1100 00:50:23,599 --> 00:50:28,159 weren't one. However, it's not any traditional ethropomorphic notion of God. 1101 00:50:28,199 --> 00:50:30,639 I don't believe in any of Earth's monotheistic religions, but 1102 00:50:30,679 --> 00:50:34,440 I do believe that you can construct an intriguing scientific 1103 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,320 definition of God wants you to accept the fact that 1104 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:37,320 there's a hundred million. 1105 00:50:37,199 --> 00:50:39,199 Speaker 3: Stars in our galaxy. 1106 00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,159 Speaker 4: In our galaxy, and each star has life giving potential, 1107 00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:45,519 and one hundred billion galaxies blah blah blah. 1108 00:50:45,679 --> 00:50:47,960 Speaker 3: The planet is in. 1109 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,000 Speaker 4: A stable orbit, not too hot, not too cold, and 1110 00:50:50,039 --> 00:50:54,280 given a billion years of chance, the chemical reactions due 1111 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:58,320 to the Sun's energy rays can produce a chance for 1112 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,119 life to emerge. Is reasonable to assume that there must 1113 00:51:01,119 --> 00:51:04,800 be countless of billions of worlds, and that life probably 1114 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,239 developed on and developed on other planets, and that their 1115 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,440 intelligence was high eventually. 1116 00:51:10,199 --> 00:51:13,599 Speaker 3: So he says that that would have led. 1117 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:14,920 Speaker 4: To you know, it's kind of the typical sort of 1118 00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,840 alien the logic of the alien story, that oh, well, 1119 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,000 there would be these advanced evolutionary beings on other planets 1120 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,400 because of the billions of years of time in the universe. 1121 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,400 He says, their potentialities would be limitless, their intelligence would 1122 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,320 would be would be ungraspable by humans, and he says 1123 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,440 that they would have been beings who, like a. 1124 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:40,159 Speaker 3: Chrysalis, transformed from matter into beings of pure energy and spirit. 1125 00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,800 Speaker 4: So that's gnostic, that's Hegelianism, that's Tahar, that's everything that I. 1126 00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:44,440 Speaker 3: Was getting at. 1127 00:51:45,119 --> 00:51:48,280 Speaker 4: And so what we have here is this, as we 1128 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,000 said a minute ago, this challenge between hol and Bowman. 1129 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:56,119 Hall ends up not winning out, but Bowman goes into 1130 00:51:56,599 --> 00:52:01,079 the stargate, the monolith stargate, which my view, he's stepping 1131 00:52:01,079 --> 00:52:04,760 outside of time and space. So he's again finally getting 1132 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,920 to the phase of transcending those previous limitations that we mention, 1133 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:12,559 and by going beyond Jupiter, he's going beyond, as we said, 1134 00:52:12,639 --> 00:52:17,400 the limiting deity of this universe or celestial intelligence of 1135 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,599 this universe. And now he can see, like you said, 1136 00:52:20,639 --> 00:52:23,199 like he's seeing the formation of this universe. He's seeing 1137 00:52:23,199 --> 00:52:26,639 outside of time and space. He's seeing, in fact, in 1138 00:52:26,679 --> 00:52:29,320 my view, that even the fundamental structure of the universe, 1139 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:34,519 that it has these sort of fundamental structures, platonic solids, 1140 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:36,679 like we read in Platos to Mas. That's kind of 1141 00:52:36,679 --> 00:52:41,280 the ultimate cosmology of all the Hermitic and occult religions 1142 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,920 is Platos to Maus, which itself says goes back to 1143 00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:45,760 ancient Egypt. 1144 00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:50,079 Speaker 1: So what I was supposed to represent like the building 1145 00:52:50,119 --> 00:52:52,519 blocks of reality or like you know, the code of 1146 00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:53,559 the matrix wherever you want to. 1147 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,599 Speaker 4: I kind of think it's a matrixy type of thing here, right, 1148 00:52:56,639 --> 00:52:59,360 So that the bowman is seeing that this is how 1149 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,079 the universe. He can see the smallest level of how 1150 00:53:02,079 --> 00:53:03,719 the universal structure, and he can see it on a 1151 00:53:04,039 --> 00:53:06,320 macro scale. You can see the beginning of it, he 1152 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,679 can see the end of it. So he's outside of 1153 00:53:08,679 --> 00:53:10,599 time and space and he can you know, has a 1154 00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,719 maybe a limited notion of omniscience. 1155 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:13,719 Speaker 3: I guess. 1156 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:16,800 Speaker 1: It's like he's the human and you kind of see 1157 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:18,320 this on the look on his face when he's in 1158 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,960 the room later, like he has this huge amount of 1159 00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,119 sort of ability to see things and understanding, but also 1160 00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,400 is still this human mind that can't comprehend anything. 1161 00:53:27,159 --> 00:53:31,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, So I wrote the transcendent sequence harkens to some 1162 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,679 kind of LSD trip or initiated. It's a kind of initiation, 1163 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,639 and I think the viewer is supposed to be initiated too, 1164 00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:42,199 so that the movie experience is an initiatory, right, or 1165 00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:43,880 it's and Kuber does this all the time. 1166 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:45,800 Speaker 3: That's why he called the movie eyes white shut, Right. 1167 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:47,519 Speaker 4: He's like, you're in the audience, I'm gonna show you 1168 00:53:47,559 --> 00:53:49,880 how the world really works with like you know, these 1169 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,199 powerful cults that run things, and you're not going to 1170 00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,280 understand it. Your eyes are going to remain shut. You're 1171 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:56,800 going to think it's a movie when it's actually the 1172 00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,639 world really works. And so I wrote, Bama's mind is 1173 00:53:59,639 --> 00:54:03,440 overload with illumination and it signifies the reaching, his reaching 1174 00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:04,000 of the eye. 1175 00:54:04,039 --> 00:54:05,079 Speaker 3: So the reason that the eye. 1176 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:06,800 Speaker 4: Imagery at the at the end of some important is 1177 00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:11,079 that the capstone had been uncapped and now Bowman is. 1178 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,360 Speaker 3: The eye of the capstone in my view, So that 1179 00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:18,239 means that he's achieved apotheosis. He's become a god man. 1180 00:54:18,679 --> 00:54:20,719 And that's what star Child is, right. 1181 00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:23,960 Speaker 4: Star Child is the ultimate apotheosis of man, the god 1182 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:25,440 man that emerges from the universe. 1183 00:54:25,599 --> 00:54:29,760 Speaker 3: But it did take uh, it did take the aid 1184 00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:31,280 of how to do it. 1185 00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,920 Speaker 4: Ironically, how was part of that dialectical process and later 1186 00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:41,039 on how will be actually integralted the being becomes Halman. 1187 00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,960 So how and Bowman merged to become Halman and he 1188 00:54:45,079 --> 00:54:48,280 has this like chariot thing that he that he runs 1189 00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,039 around and rules the universe with. 1190 00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:52,559 Speaker 1: That's on the on the books, right, Yeah, because yeah, 1191 00:54:52,599 --> 00:54:55,159 that's the first in the film, it's unclear that there's 1192 00:54:55,159 --> 00:54:57,440 any connection to Hell anymore at this point, but yeah, 1193 00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,159 in the book that becomes much more of a thing. 1194 00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:00,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 1195 00:55:00,519 --> 00:55:05,000 Speaker 4: So I just think that it's basically showing the initiatory 1196 00:55:05,079 --> 00:55:09,360 journey of an individual and alchemical worldview to understand the 1197 00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:15,519 possible future of mankind from this esultary perspective to how 1198 00:55:15,599 --> 00:55:18,519 man would kind of become become his own god. 1199 00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:23,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, and if that, if that whole vortex and everything 1200 00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:26,320 wasn't wasn't trippy enough. This sort of pretty much final 1201 00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,840 scene that we'll go into here is when Bowman suddenly 1202 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,079 finds himself after going through this whole thing, seeing the 1203 00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,880 birth of the universe, seeing you know, the seven seven diamonds, 1204 00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,599 the all of that stuff, he is suddenly just in 1205 00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,960 sort of a room or his space pod is. 1206 00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:42,519 Speaker 3: In this room. 1207 00:55:42,559 --> 00:55:44,719 Speaker 1: So it's like this was physically being guided through and 1208 00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:46,920 then just kind of plopped in this place that seems 1209 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,480 to have been I guess created for him in some 1210 00:55:49,519 --> 00:55:52,320 way shape or form or maybe created by health in 1211 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:54,679 his mind, depending on how you want to interpret things. 1212 00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:59,400 But he's in this sort of weird Victorian era, sort 1213 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,400 of like fan see fancy bedroom, and this is where 1214 00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:04,719 it again. It gets pretty pretty pretty trippy, you might say, 1215 00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:07,880 because you're seeing this through Bowman's point of view at first, 1216 00:56:08,039 --> 00:56:09,719 and you're seeing him look out. 1217 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:11,239 Speaker 2: Again. 1218 00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:12,920 Speaker 1: This is the kind of a theme with Kubrick's movies, 1219 00:56:13,039 --> 00:56:15,280 like like you mentioned there, where you're almost supposed to 1220 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:16,480 be part of the movie in a sense. So he 1221 00:56:16,559 --> 00:56:18,840 kind of feels like that when when you're you're seeing 1222 00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,400 as Bowman from outside of his little space capsule, seeing 1223 00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,480 into the room, and then. 1224 00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:25,280 Speaker 2: He sees himself. 1225 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,760 Speaker 1: He sees himself in the space in the spacesuit, and 1226 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,440 then suddenly he goes from seeing himself to being himself. 1227 00:56:31,519 --> 00:56:33,840 Now he is this older version of himself in the 1228 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:38,519 spacesuit walking around this sort of weird Victorian castle or 1229 00:56:38,519 --> 00:56:40,639 whatever it might be, until he comes upon a room 1230 00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,599 where he hears someone and sees someone eating. This person 1231 00:56:43,679 --> 00:56:46,519 turns around just kind of and then once again he 1232 00:56:46,639 --> 00:56:49,679 goes from seeing that person which is just himself, into 1233 00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,480 being that person, so that he becomes the Henry Bowman 1234 00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:54,760 that was sitting there eating drops this glass, and then 1235 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,519 looks over at the final, absolute creepiest version of himself, 1236 00:56:58,559 --> 00:57:01,559 this version that is this ruined and like gross and 1237 00:57:01,639 --> 00:57:03,800 just like it looks like if a human could become 1238 00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:05,599 two thousand years old, this is what a human a 1239 00:57:05,599 --> 00:57:08,440 two thousand years old would look like, as he again 1240 00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,800 sees himself, then becomes himself in the bed right before 1241 00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,719 we see the monolith one final time, and well we'll 1242 00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:17,840 get to Starchild one more time at the end. But why, 1243 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,800 I just give me just your thoughts on this whole 1244 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:21,760 thing where Bowman is. Did you have any thoughts on 1245 00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:24,159 why they chose this this sort of decour First of all, 1246 00:57:24,199 --> 00:57:26,360 that that part's always good question. 1247 00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:30,320 Speaker 4: I remember reading somewhere why he did that, And I 1248 00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,280 don't remember what his reasoning was, But if I recall 1249 00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:35,960 he is he said something innocuous, like he just thought 1250 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,400 it looked cool. I don't remember what exactly, but there's 1251 00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:39,440 probably more to it than that. 1252 00:57:39,519 --> 00:57:40,760 Speaker 3: Maybe he was just joking around. 1253 00:57:42,079 --> 00:57:44,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, this seems to be a kind of a temporary uh. 1254 00:57:44,679 --> 00:57:46,599 I mean, I don't know what word. 1255 00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:50,880 Speaker 3: To you, like maybe katabasis, like so. 1256 00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,039 Speaker 4: In a lot of literature, you have this notion of 1257 00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,000 the hero has to do his descent into the underworld 1258 00:57:56,039 --> 00:57:58,679 before he can be resurrected, before he can come back, 1259 00:57:59,239 --> 00:58:02,000 and the underworld journey it's part of it's like the 1260 00:58:02,079 --> 00:58:05,679 last phase of his event of hero's adventure. And then 1261 00:58:05,719 --> 00:58:08,320 he comes back and he you know, saves his bride, 1262 00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,880 or he you know, beats the monster or whatever. So 1263 00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:13,840 I think that or it's the same as Christ is 1264 00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:17,000 sent into Hades in Christian theology. So Bowman is kind 1265 00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:21,199 of like he's undergoing his catabasis. He's gone into outside 1266 00:58:21,199 --> 00:58:23,440 of the universe. And then this is a kind of 1267 00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:27,360 again it's not hell, but it's like a kind of 1268 00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:32,880 a purgatorial, temporary holding place so that he can see 1269 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:37,239 his own self, his own life, his own progression from 1270 00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,840 youth to death, so that he can undergo death to 1271 00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,519 be reborn. So I think this is just his death. 1272 00:58:44,639 --> 00:58:46,559 He needs to see and undergo death. But he's in 1273 00:58:46,599 --> 00:58:49,679 a place where he's outside of time and space, so 1274 00:58:49,679 --> 00:58:52,800 it's kind of like he's reliving and seeing his whole. 1275 00:58:52,599 --> 00:58:53,920 Speaker 3: Life is flashing before him. Again. 1276 00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:56,480 Speaker 4: I don't know why it's in a museum, but maybe 1277 00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,880 it's just like this is the museum of you know, 1278 00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:03,840 the history of man as hitherto known to be man. 1279 00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,360 Now man is going to be something new. He's becoming 1280 00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:09,519 a whole new thing, and that's the apotheosis, that's the 1281 00:59:10,159 --> 00:59:12,440 birth into being the next the god Man. 1282 00:59:13,039 --> 00:59:16,119 Speaker 3: So that's my reading of that. I'm sure there's more 1283 00:59:16,159 --> 00:59:16,400 to it. 1284 00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,960 Speaker 4: I just haven't really figured out all the exactly what 1285 00:59:19,039 --> 00:59:22,239 the whole Victorian or it's actually I think he says, 1286 00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,800 Louis the sixteenth, you know, yeah, yeah, palace or whatever. 1287 00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:28,559 Speaker 3: I'm not exactly sure what the meanium old that. 1288 00:59:28,639 --> 00:59:30,800 Speaker 4: Is, but I do know that it's like the last 1289 00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:33,320 thing that he has to overcome is death, right, So 1290 00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:35,880 you have the limitations of time and space and all 1291 00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:39,039 that kind of stuff previously that we mentioned, and now 1292 00:59:39,119 --> 00:59:41,719 in this assent, he's got one last thing to overcome, 1293 00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:46,000 which is mortality. So I think that's the main significance 1294 00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:48,840 of it, is overcoming mortality through being born again as. 1295 00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:50,840 Speaker 3: Startok, which he is. 1296 00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:54,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, so he goes from that creepy old, you know, 1297 00:59:54,559 --> 00:59:58,760 disgusting two thousand year old man to a fetus upon 1298 00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:00,480 the appearance of the on alth. 1299 01:00:01,039 --> 01:00:03,679 Speaker 2: We then we get, of course, we close up. 1300 01:00:03,559 --> 01:00:07,559 Speaker 1: With another appearance from the Great Thus Spake is zarathustrap 1301 01:00:07,639 --> 01:00:10,480 music that we're all familiar with, as we see this 1302 01:00:10,639 --> 01:00:15,079 new super creepy looking baby, Henry Bowman star Child appear 1303 01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:18,239 over the earth, and so he basically looks like a baby, 1304 01:00:18,239 --> 01:00:20,559 but also looks like Henry Bowman as a baby. So 1305 01:00:20,599 --> 01:00:23,000 it's it's a it's super weird, super creepy, and then 1306 01:00:23,199 --> 01:00:26,480 that that is the movie. So you've referenced a few times, 1307 01:00:27,079 --> 01:00:29,400 maybe you can just sum it up with, you know, what, 1308 01:00:29,719 --> 01:00:32,119 why why is Henry Bowman? I mean, now we know 1309 01:00:32,159 --> 01:00:34,199 it's the star Child and the significance, but I mean 1310 01:00:34,239 --> 01:00:35,920 this is the one where as a kid, I would 1311 01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:37,159 just be like or not even a kid, I mean 1312 01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:38,559 just a few years ago, I would just kind of 1313 01:00:38,559 --> 01:00:39,639 throw my hands up in the air and be like, 1314 01:00:39,639 --> 01:00:41,800 all right, this movie means nothing. They just want they 1315 01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:43,760 just made him a baby. But there is more significant 1316 01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:44,239 to it than that. 1317 01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:45,039 Speaker 3: Yeah. 1318 01:00:45,079 --> 01:00:49,199 Speaker 4: A lot of the people from the alchemical hermetic tradition 1319 01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:54,199 and people even in transhumanist philosophy today believe that evolution 1320 01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:58,280 is this upward ascent, somehow sort of a predetermined upward, 1321 01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:02,079 upward ascent to perpetual progress to achieving deity. 1322 01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:05,719 Speaker 3: So man will evolve to become God. 1323 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:10,079 Speaker 4: And the reasoning is, well, what's the most likely means 1324 01:01:10,119 --> 01:01:11,719 by which he would have all to become God. 1325 01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:13,119 Speaker 3: Well it would be technology. 1326 01:01:13,719 --> 01:01:17,039 Speaker 4: So that's I think, ultimately the root narrative throughout the 1327 01:01:17,079 --> 01:01:18,400 Clark stories here. 1328 01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:19,199 Speaker 3: That's what's going on. 1329 01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:22,840 Speaker 4: And like I said, there was supposed to be the 1330 01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:26,800 idea that Starchild would nuke Earth and start over, but 1331 01:01:27,599 --> 01:01:29,039 they decided that was a little too dark, so they 1332 01:01:29,039 --> 01:01:31,000 didn't put that in there, if I remember, so they 1333 01:01:31,079 --> 01:01:33,360 just left it as Starchild basically kind of like creating 1334 01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:37,840 another universe. So we're back at Genesis, and since Bowman 1335 01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,760 has transcended and become his own god, he can now. 1336 01:01:40,639 --> 01:01:44,119 Speaker 3: Create his own universe. He's the god of his own universe. 1337 01:01:44,159 --> 01:01:47,400 Speaker 4: And so that's the whole meaning of you know, the 1338 01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:52,039 alchemical process, the ascent of man. Apotheosis means Man becoming God. 1339 01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:54,440 So that's why I think that the story's supposed to. 1340 01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:56,280 Speaker 1: Be so at least as far as the movie goes, 1341 01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:58,119 I mean, the books and the Seagulls, the movies go 1342 01:01:58,159 --> 01:01:59,800 in other directions or what have you. But as far 1343 01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:01,760 as the movie goes. That's what always confused me, like 1344 01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,639 is this Bowman just returning to Earth to do whatever? 1345 01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,079 Or is this a cycle or is it almost like 1346 01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:08,719 this might be back at Genesis. 1347 01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:10,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, and now now. 1348 01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:13,400 Speaker 1: Maybe Bowmen Bowman through that well, as we know in 1349 01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:14,960 the books, like when he sort of merges with how 1350 01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:18,840 he is the one responsible for almost like Interstellar, where 1351 01:02:19,119 --> 01:02:21,320 the ones that are guiding this whole thing are actually 1352 01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:23,800 the ones are what make humans becomes the one that 1353 01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:25,639 started and then we're sort of stuck in this, in 1354 01:02:25,679 --> 01:02:27,480 this never ennic cycle exactly. 1355 01:02:27,559 --> 01:02:30,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, and that would make sense in the Nietzschean view 1356 01:02:30,159 --> 01:02:35,960 that it's an eternal return. Thus spake Zarathustra, right, that 1357 01:02:36,079 --> 01:02:39,239 notion of the sort of a never ending cyclical universe 1358 01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:43,119 where now the process starts over again and we're back 1359 01:02:43,159 --> 01:02:47,199 at Genesis and Creation, which not Genesis in the biblical sense, 1360 01:02:47,239 --> 01:02:49,960 but the idea of Genesis in a you know, big 1361 01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,599 bang cosmic beginning of the universe sense. 1362 01:02:52,519 --> 01:02:55,199 Speaker 2: Right, definitely not in the biblical sense at all. Right, 1363 01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:58,159 one more question I want to and then we'll we'll. 1364 01:02:58,000 --> 01:02:59,360 Speaker 1: Hop over to the smoke of the room and see 1365 01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:01,159 if we can get a little bit weirder. But I'm 1366 01:03:01,159 --> 01:03:04,000 just curious where you put this personally in if you 1367 01:03:04,039 --> 01:03:07,519 have a head sort of a headcanon ranking of Kubrick films, 1368 01:03:07,639 --> 01:03:10,079 where would you land this one in terms of your 1369 01:03:10,079 --> 01:03:14,840 personal favorites Anyway, that's a good question. 1370 01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:16,239 Speaker 2: I didn't prep you for that one. It's a tough 1371 01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:17,639 one my. 1372 01:03:17,639 --> 01:03:22,400 Speaker 3: Personal I like probably The Eyes Watch. 1373 01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:26,280 Speaker 4: That's probably my favorite, just because it's a little more grounded, 1374 01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,159 grounded and down to earth, and when it comes to 1375 01:03:28,199 --> 01:03:30,760 the reality of the conspiracy world. 1376 01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:32,400 Speaker 2: That's one that's moved up my rankings. 1377 01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:33,639 Speaker 1: I think when I first saw it, I was like, 1378 01:03:33,679 --> 01:03:35,480 I don't know it was there was some cool orgies, 1379 01:03:35,519 --> 01:03:36,920 I guess, but I'm not sure. But now, like the 1380 01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:38,960 more I watch it, it just it's ages like a 1381 01:03:39,039 --> 01:03:39,639 like a fine wine. 1382 01:03:39,639 --> 01:03:40,840 Speaker 2: It gets better every time I see it. 1383 01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:47,599 Speaker 4: Yeah, probably next would be The Shining I like that 1384 01:03:47,719 --> 01:03:48,079 a lot. 1385 01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:49,880 Speaker 3: Probably next would be. 1386 01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:54,679 Speaker 4: I mean, I appreciate Barry Lyndon, but it's kind of boring, 1387 01:03:57,039 --> 01:03:59,719 not a big kind of Lolita, although it is relevant. 1388 01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:03,519 Speaker 3: To I guess how the world really works Spartacus. 1389 01:04:05,519 --> 01:04:08,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I guess I would put two thousand 1390 01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:11,920 and one maybe in terms of just appreciating the accomplishment 1391 01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,679 and the artistic achievement and the significance of it. 1392 01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:16,519 Speaker 3: Even though I don't agree with the worldview, I would 1393 01:04:16,519 --> 01:04:17,599 probably place it fourth. 1394 01:04:18,239 --> 01:04:18,519 Speaker 2: Fourth. 1395 01:04:18,559 --> 01:04:20,800 Speaker 1: Okay, so we have above it eyes wide shut, shining, 1396 01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:23,480 and it was the other one that you have you 1397 01:04:23,679 --> 01:04:24,079 have above it. 1398 01:04:24,079 --> 01:04:26,239 Speaker 3: I forgot what I put third. Maybe I'll put third, 1399 01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:28,519 and then it's not better than Barry Linden, So maybe 1400 01:04:28,559 --> 01:04:29,440 Berry Linden fourth. 1401 01:04:30,039 --> 01:04:32,440 Speaker 1: All right, all right, well, Jay, I really appreciate you 1402 01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:34,199 coming on to break this down. Like I said, We're 1403 01:04:34,199 --> 01:04:36,960 gonna hop in the Smokefield room for the Premio Premio 1404 01:04:37,159 --> 01:04:39,480 subs in a second. But before we sign off, just 1405 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:42,320 make sure you give everybody the full roundabout about where 1406 01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:45,239 they can find your work all over the place. Your website, YouTube, 1407 01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:46,760 you're everywhere. 1408 01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:51,039 Speaker 3: Yeah, Jay Dyer on YouTube, pretty much everywhere else. 1409 01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:57,480 Speaker 4: Jay Dyer on Twitter, Instagram. You can find my fourth 1410 01:04:57,519 --> 01:05:00,280 Hour at my website all of the last two years. 1411 01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:02,519 Speaker 3: It's everything's on my website. But you can also find 1412 01:05:02,519 --> 01:05:07,400 all that on Bandai Video TV. Show that we did, 1413 01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:12,719 which is more relevant to today's analysis was over at Gaya. 1414 01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:15,079 Speaker 4: It's called Hollywood Decoded. So there's a whole season of 1415 01:05:15,119 --> 01:05:20,400 that TV show where we did basically twenty ish episodes 1416 01:05:20,679 --> 01:05:24,000 like we did today, breaking down all these different films, 1417 01:05:24,039 --> 01:05:27,320 including two thousand and one and other Kubri films too. 1418 01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:28,960 We did the Shining, we did Eyesweight Shut. 1419 01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:32,199 Speaker 3: So that's all over there, and you have a bunch 1420 01:05:32,239 --> 01:05:32,679 of books. 1421 01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:34,440 Speaker 4: So if you like this kind of analysis, you can 1422 01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:36,159 get my two Hollywood books. But I also have a 1423 01:05:36,159 --> 01:05:38,880 bunch of books on philosophy and theology at the website too. 1424 01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:41,960 My wife has books kind of breaking down film symbolism 1425 01:05:42,079 --> 01:05:43,760 and occult symbolism as well. 1426 01:05:43,639 --> 01:05:47,760 Speaker 3: And all that's at my website. In the shops on 1427 01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:48,400 Rocky you. 1428 01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,079 Speaker 1: Can give yourself your own sort of masterclass, and I 1429 01:05:51,159 --> 01:05:53,719 mean you could spend years just just devouring day's material. 1430 01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:56,119 Speaker 2: So check that all out. And Jay, thank you so much. 1431 01:05:56,199 --> 01:05:57,199 Speaker 3: Lost the course real quick. 1432 01:05:57,199 --> 01:05:58,840 Speaker 2: I forgot Oh yeah yeah, go ahead over. 1433 01:05:58,679 --> 01:06:01,519 Speaker 3: At Richard Grows Autonomy University. 1434 01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,599 Speaker 4: We just taught a whole history of Western philosophy course, 1435 01:06:04,639 --> 01:06:06,639 so that's available over at Autonomy University. 1436 01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:09,159 Speaker 1: Awesome, good ass, Jay, thanks so much for coming on. 1437 01:06:09,199 --> 01:06:12,400 Really appreciate you coming on my show. Thank you all right, friends, 1438 01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:16,119 I hope you enjoyed my breakdown, really Jay's breakdown, our 1439 01:06:16,239 --> 01:06:19,639 breakdown of two thousand and one Space Odyssey with Jay Dyer. 1440 01:06:19,719 --> 01:06:23,199 Be sure to follow his work if it's been created, 1441 01:06:23,239 --> 01:06:26,400 there's a decent chance that Jay has done an esoteric 1442 01:06:26,519 --> 01:06:29,079 analysis and breakdown of it. So he's just a vast, 1443 01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:33,199 sore source of information and knowledge, and not just on 1444 01:06:33,199 --> 01:06:35,760 this subject. I mean, if you're if you're becoming an 1445 01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:39,039 ortho bro or something. He has so much stuff on theology, 1446 01:06:39,519 --> 01:06:42,320 so much stuff on global politics, conspiracy. I mean, Jay 1447 01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:46,320 just has an incredibly vast depth of knowledge at his disposal. 1448 01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:47,719 So I really want to encourage you to head over 1449 01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:50,760 check out Jay's analysis dot com and give Jay a like, 1450 01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,199 a sub a follow, whatever you gotta do, just go ahead. 1451 01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:54,400 Speaker 2: And do it. 1452 01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:57,559 Speaker 1: And of course, if you enjoy my conversation with Jay today, 1453 01:06:57,559 --> 01:06:59,880 you probably will enjoy the rest of it because this 1454 01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,000 this conversation has always continued in the smoke filled Room. 1455 01:07:03,199 --> 01:07:07,000 Bonus segment for my premium subscribers on Patreon, on a 1456 01:07:07,119 --> 01:07:10,719 rochfin on subscribe Star. However you subscribe, you get the 1457 01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:15,199 complete and early access to every single episode of this program. 1458 01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:17,519 Every single episode you here on the public feed is 1459 01:07:17,559 --> 01:07:20,639 only scratching the surface, we always go deeper in the 1460 01:07:20,639 --> 01:07:23,239 smoke filled room. In this one, we got Jay's thoughts 1461 01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:27,239 on whether Stanley Kubrick was involved with the moon landing footage, 1462 01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:29,840 which has been rumored. Of course, he also gets into 1463 01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,920 his thoughts on things like the Mandela effect and the 1464 01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:35,039 flat Earth. What does Jay Dyer think of flat Earth? 1465 01:07:35,079 --> 01:07:37,280 We're gonna find out in the smoke filled room. If 1466 01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:39,800 you haven't hey, you can get yourself a free trial. 1467 01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:42,639 You know, subscribe Star. Go click the subscribe Star link. 1468 01:07:42,679 --> 01:07:46,639 Just go to Mark Claire again Marc clair dot com. 1469 01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:47,840 Speaker 2: Try subscribe Star. 1470 01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:49,119 Speaker 1: If you just want to free try you can get 1471 01:07:49,119 --> 01:07:51,239 a five day, a frive day, seven day, whatever, it's 1472 01:07:51,239 --> 01:07:51,880 a free trial. 1473 01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:54,079 Speaker 2: Check it out, dive through the archive. You can do 1474 01:07:54,119 --> 01:07:55,480 it all probably in a few days. 1475 01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:56,719 Speaker 1: You can't go to work, you want a time for 1476 01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:58,639 anything else, your family, eating loved ones. 1477 01:07:58,719 --> 01:08:00,559 Speaker 2: But you can get to the whole archive in a 1478 01:08:00,599 --> 01:08:01,039 few days. 1479 01:08:01,039 --> 01:08:02,840 Speaker 1: And if you like what you're here, you like what 1480 01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:05,119 you see, you want to support the show, I'm happy 1481 01:08:05,159 --> 01:08:07,199 to have you, So head over to Markclaire dot com 1482 01:08:07,199 --> 01:08:09,400 for all the options of how you can subscribe to 1483 01:08:09,599 --> 01:08:10,639 and support this program. 1484 01:08:10,719 --> 01:08:11,960 Speaker 2: Be sure to enjoy the telegram group. 1485 01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:14,320 Speaker 1: We're having a good time in the telegram group getting 1486 01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:14,880 some conversation. 1487 01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:15,960 Speaker 2: That one is free, you don't have to be a 1488 01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:17,039 paid subscriber for that. 1489 01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:20,920 Speaker 1: Also linked over there at the linktree at markclaire dot com. 1490 01:08:21,199 --> 01:08:23,640 That to being said, that is all for this week, 1491 01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:26,279 my friends. Next week we're gonna have another great conversation. 1492 01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:28,600 If you thought this is weird, well we talked about 1493 01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:31,600 some some fictional aliens today, well today next week we're 1494 01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:35,279 gonna be talking about some possible non fictional aliens. The 1495 01:08:35,319 --> 01:08:38,000 current hoopla around UFO is what is going on here. 1496 01:08:38,039 --> 01:08:40,159 We're gonna be talking about that with my guest Griffin 1497 01:08:40,239 --> 01:08:43,560 Daughtry next week. Until then, my friends, O case I 1498 01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:48,000 don't see you, Good afternoon, good evening, and good night 1499 01:09:05,079 --> 01:09:05,520 Speaker 3: Music