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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 4: journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 5: Before Charles Manson, there was Tony Costa, the serial killer
Speaker 5: of Cape Cod nineteen sixty nine. The hippie scene is
Speaker 5: vibrant in Provincetown, Massachusetts. Long haired teenagers roam the streets,
Speaker 5: strumming guitars and preaching about peace and love, and Tony
Speaker 5: Costa is at the center of it all. To a
Speaker 5: certain group of smitt and young women, he is known
Speaker 5: as Sire, the leader of their counterculture movement, the charming
Speaker 5: man who speaks eloquently and hands out hallucinogenic drugs like candy,
Speaker 5: but beneath his benign persona laza twisted and uncontrollable rage
Speaker 5: that threatens to break loose at any moment. Tony causes
Speaker 5: the most dangerous man on Cape Cod, and no one
Speaker 5: who crosses his path is safe when young women begin
Speaker 5: to disappear. Costs, natural charisma, and good looks initially protect
Speaker 5: him from suspicion, but as the bodies are discovered, the
Speaker 5: police close in on him as their key suspect. Meanwhile,
Speaker 5: local writers Kurt Vonnegut and Norman Mahler are locked in
Speaker 5: a desperate race to secure their legacies as great literary icons,
Speaker 5: and they both set their sights on Tony Costa and
Speaker 5: the drug soaked tippie culture that he embodies as their
Speaker 5: next promising subject, launching independent investigations that stoke the competitive
Speaker 5: fires between two of the greatest American writers. Immersive, unflinching,
Speaker 5: and shocking, Helltown is a landmark true crime narrative that
Speaker 5: transports us back to the turbulent late nineteen sixties, reveals
Speaker 5: the secrets of a notorious serial killer, and unspools the
Speaker 5: threads connecting Costa, Vonnegut, and Mailer in the seaside city
Speaker 5: that played host to horrors unlike any ever seen before
Speaker 5: the book they were featuring. This s evening is hell Town,
Speaker 5: the untold story of a serial killer on Cape cod
Speaker 5: with my special guest journalist and author Casey Sherman. Welcome
Speaker 5: to the program, and thank you very much for this interview.
Speaker 5: Casey Sherman.
Speaker 6: Thank you for having me. Dan appreciate it.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. This is an incredible book. Let's
Speaker 5: get right to it. You talk about Kurt Vonnegut, Edie Vonnegut,
Speaker 5: and you open the book with talking about the hippies
Speaker 5: were taking over the tip of Cape cod tell us
Speaker 5: what was happening in nineteen seventy four, and you talk
Speaker 5: about his parole hearing and the book that Tony Costa
Speaker 5: completed Resurrection, and then we get into Kurt Vonnegut and
Speaker 5: what he was doing at that time, and his daughter
Speaker 5: Edie Vonnegutt tell us about that.
Speaker 6: Sure.
Speaker 7: So, Dan, the prologue you're talking about is Tony Costa,
Speaker 7: the serial killer, behind bars in nineteen seventy four at
Speaker 7: Walpole State Prison in Massachusetts, and he is working on
Speaker 7: his unpublished manuscript. It was a manuscript that I got
Speaker 7: access to as part of my research for this book,
Speaker 7: and in nineteen seventy four, Tony cost that takes his
Speaker 7: fate in his own hands and Alan spoil it for
Speaker 7: the reader. But we propel the story from there and
Speaker 7: then we go back to you mentioned the setting which
Speaker 7: is nineteen sixty nine, and it's really a year of
Speaker 7: reckoning in America. The Summer of Love is a distant
Speaker 7: memory and overshadowed by the assassination of Martin Luther King
Speaker 7: Robert F.
Speaker 6: Kennedy. We've got a raging war in Vietnam.
Speaker 7: And the bloody violence of the nineteen sixty eight Democratic
Speaker 7: National Convention in Chicago. Now woven into the historical landscape
Speaker 7: of Helltown, we have Richard Nixon's inauguration chap Equitic, the
Speaker 7: moon landing, and finally the Manson murders. Now the characters
Speaker 7: in my book hell Town have both direct and Kean's
Speaker 7: gentle connections with all of these major events. I look
Speaker 7: at twenty twenty two the same way that I look
Speaker 7: at nineteen sixty nine, because there's been a huge cultural
Speaker 7: and political shift in our country. We're living in a
Speaker 7: very dangerous time right now, where darkness is overshadowing light.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about Sydney Monson and say, very much like
Speaker 5: Edie Vonnegut, she was a young woman and she's from
Speaker 5: eastam tell us what happened with Sidney Monsen?
Speaker 7: Sure, you know, let me go back a little bit
Speaker 7: and talk a little bit about my career as an
Speaker 7: investigative journalist. I've been working in that space for twenty
Speaker 7: five years and I've covered more than fifty homfidtes and
Speaker 7: with this case Dan, I had access to more than
Speaker 7: two thousand documents, crime scene photos, and autopsy reports of
Speaker 7: the case. In my opinion, this is the worst serial
Speaker 7: killer case since Jack the Ripper was stalking women in
Speaker 7: East London back in eighteen eighty eight. As a crime reporter,
Speaker 7: you know, looking at this, looking at these young victims.
Speaker 7: You mentioned the killer himself, a charismatic serial killer named
Speaker 7: Tony Costa, who was handsome, well read, very articulate and
Speaker 7: could lure these beautiful young women into very troubling and
Speaker 7: often deadly situations. Sidney Mansen was a young woman recently
Speaker 7: graduated the local high school at the you know, the
Speaker 7: tip of Cape Cod, East Ham is on the arm
Speaker 7: of Cape Cod leading up to the Fist which is
Speaker 7: ultimately provincedown and Sidney becomes captivating by this, you know,
Speaker 7: young hippie like Messiah and falls under his spell and
Speaker 7: puts her defenses down and it ultimately leads to her death.
Speaker 6: What Tony Costa was doing with his victims was.
Speaker 7: He was luring them into you know, dark areas, wooded
Speaker 7: areas in Truro and Provincetown, getting their guards down over
Speaker 7: over the drugs he was supplying them, or the hallucinogenetics
Speaker 7: that he had given them previously, and he was shooting them.
Speaker 7: He was stabbing them, he was dismembering their bodies and
Speaker 7: burying them in shallow graves. Now, dan in nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 7: when these women start to go missing in Provincetown, you know,
Speaker 7: the police don't take it seriously because Provincetown at that
Speaker 7: time was kind of a transient community. People came and went,
Speaker 7: especially those you know, adhering to the hippie culture, and
Speaker 7: the police just thought Sidney Monsen and these other women
Speaker 7: had just you know, pulled up stakes and followed a caravan,
Speaker 7: whether it was to hate Ashbury in San Francisco or
Speaker 7: to Greenwich Village in New York City. They didn't know
Speaker 7: that these women were buried in shallow graves a few
Speaker 7: feet away from the police station.
Speaker 5: Basically, the police had a relationship with Tony Costa.
Speaker 7: What was that Tony Costa was a drug informant and
Speaker 7: it allowed Tony Costa to embed himself with the Provincetown
Speaker 7: Police Department, which was not that big, you know. I
Speaker 7: mean it had a handful of police officers covering only
Speaker 7: about a mile and a half in terms of territory.
Speaker 7: But in the summertime, that community balloons to you know,
Speaker 7: well over five to ten thousand residents, and that's a
Speaker 7: lot of ground to cover. And they used Tony Costa
Speaker 7: to gain information about Tony Costa's rivals in the drug trade,
Speaker 7: which had allowed Tony Costa, the serial killer, to kind
Speaker 7: of pick off his competition. But when he begins to
Speaker 7: evolve and starts to murder these women, it also allows
Speaker 7: him to keep cabs on the investigators themselves, because he
Speaker 7: always thought then that he was smarter than the police
Speaker 7: that were committed to catching him.
Speaker 6: Ultimately, he was not well.
Speaker 5: Police are looking and Sidney Monsen's sister Linda is looking
Speaker 5: for her along with her boyfriend Roland. Susan Perry goes missing.
Speaker 5: Tell us how police proceed with these disappearances.
Speaker 7: Well, again, they they didn't realize at the time that
Speaker 7: these young women were missing, and it took it well
Speaker 7: over a year before the police finally took these disappearances seriously.
Speaker 7: Susan Perry had fallen in love with the serial killer,
Speaker 7: much like Sidney Monson had, and it ended with her
Speaker 7: with her death, once again dismembering the body and burying
Speaker 7: her in a shallow grave. One of the investigators that
Speaker 7: I interviewed for this book was a former state trooper
Speaker 7: named Tom Gunnery, and Tom is convinced that he pulled
Speaker 7: over Tony Costa on a route leading to Provincetown just
Speaker 7: after Susan Perry had gone missing. And he believes that
Speaker 7: Susan Perry was probably dismembered and in the back of
Speaker 7: Tony Costa's car. Had he opened the trunk and realized
Speaker 7: that hor or discovered it at the time, You know,
Speaker 7: other young women wouldn't have been killed, but unfortunately they were.
Speaker 5: Now tell us about his appearance at this guest house
Speaker 5: of Patricia Morton, how he gets there, and the interaction
Speaker 5: with her.
Speaker 7: Sure, you know Tony Costa was a handyman in Provincetown,
Speaker 7: but again, you know, you look at him, his his
Speaker 7: psychology is pretty unique. He is the living epitome of
Speaker 7: Norman Bates. Tony Costa was an amateur taxidermist who had
Speaker 7: basically been forced to move to Provincetown to live with
Speaker 7: relatives because he had tied up and sexually assaulted a
Speaker 7: young woman in his hometown, a town of Somerville, Massachusetts.
Speaker 7: While he was a teenager. He was also disappearing local pets,
Speaker 7: killing them and performing his taxidermy you know, understanding the
Speaker 7: the you know, the human body in a way that
Speaker 7: would ultimately help him perform his duties as a serial
Speaker 7: killer much later in his life. He also had tremendous
Speaker 7: mother issues as well then, which may be one of
Speaker 7: his motivations hit a love hate relationship with his mother
Speaker 7: that ultimately I think he projected onto his victims, primarily
Speaker 7: Mariann Waisaki and Patricia Walsh, two professionals. One was a teacher,
Speaker 7: one was a college student who had decided to leave
Speaker 7: their home in Providence, Rhode Island, just for a brief
Speaker 7: getaway in Provincetown, Massachusetts in the cold winter of nineteen
Speaker 7: sixty nine, and they find lodging at a rooming house
Speaker 7: at five Standish Street in Provincetown, and suddenly they meet
Speaker 7: again a very charismatic lodger named Tony Costa, who offers
Speaker 7: to show them around town and provides them some advice
Speaker 7: on where to go on a cold, desolate night in Provincetown,
Speaker 7: and they quickly fall under his spell, and over the
Speaker 7: course of twenty four hours he lures them into their web,
Speaker 7: into his web, I should say, and it's the last
Speaker 7: time either of them are ever seen alive.
Speaker 5: Now with the landlady, she discover something the next day,
Speaker 5: specifically a note. Tell us about that note, and it's contrast.
Speaker 7: Well, the note was written by the serial killer Tony Costa,
Speaker 7: to the two young women I just mentioned, and he
Speaker 7: was asking them for a ride at Chatruro, which is
Speaker 7: the next town over, because Tony Costa didn't have a vehicle.
Speaker 7: And again, you know, he was a pleasant young man,
Speaker 7: very unassuming, very charismatic, certainly somebody that wasn't threatening, and
Speaker 7: these women provided him assistance and ultimately they let their
Speaker 7: guards down and he took them on the last ride
Speaker 7: of their lives to an ancient cemetery in Treuro and
Speaker 7: ultimately to his killing field where he shot them, dismembered
Speaker 7: their bodies and buried them in shallow graves.
Speaker 5: Now people that are looking for the two people. The
Speaker 5: teacher was Mary Anne Wsaki and Pat Pat Walsh. There
Speaker 5: was a stolen or there was a missing Vita, a
Speaker 5: blue Volkswagen. So what happens with this Volkswagen? It spotted,
Speaker 5: but it spotted again? Tell us about this well.
Speaker 6: I mean, it's basically the death car.
Speaker 7: So Pat Walsh owned a nineteen sixty eight blue BW
Speaker 7: Beetle and she drove Tony Costa and her friend Marian
Speaker 7: Waisaki to Truro, and Tony Costa murdered these women, as
Speaker 7: I said, in very heinous ways. Now going back to
Speaker 7: this stand again, I can't I can't stress this enough.
Speaker 7: You know, viewing the crime scene and the autopsy photos
Speaker 7: of these women, these women weren't just stabbed. It looked
Speaker 7: like they had been mauled by a great white shark.
Speaker 7: They were frenzied, cuts to their bodies, and there were
Speaker 7: organs taken out of all of the victims, whether it
Speaker 7: was their breasts or their uteruses.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 7: Basically, Tony Costa was consuming their womanhood, if you will,
Speaker 7: while he.
Speaker 6: Was murdering them.
Speaker 7: So he commits these heinous atrocities, buries these women, and
Speaker 7: then he's got to get rid of the evidence, meaning
Speaker 7: the Volkswagen Beetle. He leaves it deserted, in Truro. Ultimately,
Speaker 7: it's spotted by a passer by and when the passer
Speaker 7: by alerts local law enforcement because it was in an
Speaker 7: area that was unusual, and it sparked, you know, suspicion
Speaker 7: right away. But when the local authorities went back to
Speaker 7: retreat of the vehicle, the vehicle was gone. And that's
Speaker 7: because the serial killer had taken the car and drove
Speaker 7: it out of town, actually drove it out of state.
Speaker 7: And this begins dan a very interesting cat and mouse
Speaker 7: game that's a serial killer plays with investigators. Oftentimes, serial
Speaker 7: killers like this will shy away from the spotlight, will
Speaker 7: hide in the shadows. We've seen that time and time again.
Speaker 7: Tony cost was much different. Again, he thought he could
Speaker 7: outwit the investigators, so he took them off and led
Speaker 7: these investigators on a bit of a wild goosebase over
Speaker 7: several weeks.
Speaker 5: There was a person named Steve Grund and another person
Speaker 5: named Weed, nicknamed Weed, and they accompany him to Boston
Speaker 5: and to and to his brother in law Vinnie Bornaveri. So,
Speaker 5: but Steve Grunt is asking questions about this VW What
Speaker 5: does the Costa have to say to him?
Speaker 6: Well, you know, Costa basically orders him.
Speaker 7: You know, don't ask too many questions because you're not
Speaker 7: going to like what the answer is. Ultimately, Tony cost
Speaker 7: has two hippie friends believe that the vehicle of stolen,
Speaker 7: and they were absolutely great. Now they have no idea
Speaker 7: that the owner of that vehicle, you know, was buried
Speaker 7: in under you know, three feet of frozen earth a
Speaker 7: few miles away. That was something they could not comprehend.
Speaker 7: They just thought Tony Costa may have hotwired the car,
Speaker 7: stolen the car, and that's really where their suspicions lie
Speaker 7: because you know, going back to you know, Costa's ability
Speaker 7: to be so charismatic, not only you know, amongst women,
Speaker 7: but amongst men. You mentioned that he had a nickname
Speaker 7: named sim You know, he was very Manson esque in
Speaker 7: that way where he had disciples that were willing to
Speaker 7: basically do anything in his name. And you mentioned these
Speaker 7: two friends that were basically in the stolen vehicle, a
Speaker 7: vehicle that was used for murder and naming, you know,
Speaker 7: basically you know, helping Tony Costa hide the evidence unbeknownst
Speaker 7: to themselves.
Speaker 5: Now, how does Gunnery and Bernie Flynn, how do these
Speaker 5: police officers, how do they proceed with their search. And
Speaker 5: where do they search first?
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, obviously, you know, you create concentric circles
Speaker 7: around the area in which these women have gone missing,
Speaker 7: So you start with the boarding house. And again they're
Speaker 7: looking for two missing women in Provincetown. They have not
Speaker 7: made the connection between these disappearances and the disappearances of
Speaker 7: Susan Perry, the disappearance of Sidney Monsen. There was another
Speaker 7: victim in New York City, Christine Gallant. They have not
Speaker 7: made any of these connections yet. He was looking for
Speaker 7: these two missing women, and quite frankly, they believe that
Speaker 7: they are alive until they start to find unique pieces
Speaker 7: of evidence inside the boarding house that ultimately leads them.
Speaker 6: To believe that these women have been murdered.
Speaker 7: And you know, the biggest reveal is the Volkswagen Beetle
Speaker 7: that turns up in Burlington, Vermont. And they are connecting
Speaker 7: Tony Costa to this case step by step, and Costa
Speaker 7: is confronting them at every step, denying his culpability in
Speaker 7: these disappearances and ultimately these murders.
Speaker 6: And it becomes a.
Speaker 7: Game of catch me if you can, you know, And
Speaker 7: I got to really spend a lot of time with
Speaker 7: Tom Gunnery working on this book. Bernie Flynn had passed on,
Speaker 7: you know, a long time before I decided to take
Speaker 7: this case on. But you know, I've had the great
Speaker 7: opportunity of reviewing all of his case notes, his police reports,
Speaker 7: interviewing is his wife who had gone through a lot
Speaker 7: of this with him. Because you know, Tom Gunnery and
Speaker 7: Bernie Flynn, they were both you know, fathers, they both
Speaker 7: had dogs. They couldn't imagine their our own children, you know,
Speaker 7: being put into situations like this, and it was a
Speaker 7: race against time for them because they didn't know when
Speaker 7: Tony Costa would kill again, because he certainly was capable
Speaker 7: of it, and he was evolving as a serial killer.
Speaker 5: They found out about Avis Costa, and so they spoke
Speaker 5: to her. What did they find out.
Speaker 7: Well, AVOs Costa was Tony Costa's wife who was going
Speaker 7: through a divorce with Tony Costa at the time that
Speaker 7: this investigation really started to begin. Now it's a really
Speaker 7: unique relationship. Tony Costa married her or you know, impregnated
Speaker 7: her when she was thirteen, married her when she was
Speaker 7: fourteen years old, you know, committed a lot of very sadistic,
Speaker 7: masochistic sex acts against Avis as he was evolving as
Speaker 7: a serial killer, and he was also coming under the
Speaker 7: cloud a major drug addit that he had acquired while
Speaker 7: he was going through marital troubles with Avis. So here
Speaker 7: you have person who is breaking dead and very dangerous
Speaker 7: and then you know, is overcome by hallucinogenic drugs and
Speaker 7: begins to create an alter ego for himself. Now in
Speaker 7: psychology they call that ego splitting. Tony Coster had created
Speaker 7: this alter ego to commit these these heinous mergents, and
Speaker 7: that way he could compartmentalize his own personality of a
Speaker 7: kind of a fun loving, caring hippie like Messiah who
Speaker 7: is all into peace and love. And this Jack the
Speaker 7: Ripper who was buried deep in his soul.
Speaker 5: You talk about that. At this time, he is being
Speaker 5: harassed by police, even though you say this cat and
Speaker 5: mouse game with police. So he speaks to somebody that's
Speaker 5: related to Avis, actually her uncle, Morris Goldman, or it
Speaker 5: ends up he speaks to Marris Goldman tell us about that.
Speaker 7: Well, he needs a legal representation, and it's interesting he
Speaker 7: feels like he's being harassed by police because they told
Speaker 7: him need to get a good defense attorney because your
Speaker 7: story just doesn't add up. Meanwhile, you know, the police
Speaker 7: are being harassed by you know, members of Tony Costa's
Speaker 7: fan club, these acolytes, these disciples, these you know, I
Speaker 7: mean Manson had his family, Tony Costa really at his
Speaker 7: as well. So they were trying to stemy the investigation
Speaker 7: anyway they could.
Speaker 5: Now they find a young woman that has a very
Speaker 5: very interesting story about going out with Tony Costa and
Speaker 5: bow and arrow. Tell us about this story and what
Speaker 5: police learn from this.
Speaker 7: Well, she was the only victim attacked by Tony Costa
Speaker 7: who lived to tell the tale again. A young you know,
Speaker 7: beautiful teenager in Provincetown, lord to Tony Costa's marijuana garden,
Speaker 7: if you will, in Wealthy and Truro, and she is
Speaker 7: a shot with a bone and arrow, shot by an
Speaker 7: arrow by Tony Costa, and she thinks it's an accident.
Speaker 7: He wanted he took his bow and arrow out to
Speaker 7: you know, fire it off in the woods, but targeted her,
Speaker 7: you know, shot her in the back. And she revealed
Speaker 7: this information to investigators, which ultimately led them, you know,
Speaker 7: to that area in Truro where over time they were
Speaker 7: able to discover more evidence that would you know, turn
Speaker 7: a missing person's case into a murder case, a murder case.
Speaker 6: Unlike anything that they've ever ever seen.
Speaker 5: Tell us what they did find at this site.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean they started to find bits and pieces
Speaker 7: of identification from Patricia Walsh and Mary and Wasisaki, driver's licenses,
Speaker 7: car registrations, Mary and Wisaki's handbag with.
Speaker 6: Movie tickets in it.
Speaker 7: So they know these women had gone missing in that
Speaker 7: general area, and it didn't look like they had just
Speaker 7: left the area like Tony Costa had basically told investigators
Speaker 7: that these women took off and moved elsewhere. No, there,
Speaker 7: they were close by, and they were dead. So it
Speaker 7: became aim a recovery mission at that point. And over time,
Speaker 7: these investigators, Bernie Flynn and Tom Gunnery primarily were able
Speaker 7: to identify the very spots where these women were buried,
Speaker 7: and they were pulling out body parts from from you know,
Speaker 7: shallow graves, encrusted dirt, and that's when they understood that
Speaker 7: there were more victims here because the bodies of Susan
Speaker 7: Perry and the bodies of Sidney Mansen were also buried
Speaker 7: in that area. In fact, Sydney's body was buried alongside
Speaker 7: Mary and Wassakis.
Speaker 5: Now they arrest him for larceny for car theft, and
Speaker 5: how do they proceed from there? And when does he
Speaker 5: told that there are warrants for his murder, for murder,
Speaker 5: for for murder.
Speaker 7: Sure, when the bodies of Walsh and Wasaki are revealed,
Speaker 7: that's when he is arrested for murder. And he still
Speaker 7: has this incredible and this narcissism that allows him to
Speaker 7: think that he's going to get out of this, and
Speaker 7: he continues to baffle his defense attorneys, giving them, you know,
Speaker 7: all these crazy stories of other killers, including his is Altrigo,
Speaker 7: who happened to have the same name of a living
Speaker 7: a teenager in Provincetown, and Tony Costa is blaming these
Speaker 7: murders on this young man. So it compounds the investigation
Speaker 7: for quite some time until state Trooper Gunnery finds the
Speaker 7: murder weapons, which are a gun and a sharing knife.
Speaker 7: And then you know, Tony Costa's goose is proverbially cooked,
Speaker 7: if you will.
Speaker 6: And again, I don't want to lose sight on.
Speaker 7: You know, the two writers that are piecing together this information,
Speaker 7: along with the investigators you mentioned earlier, Dan Norman Mailer
Speaker 7: and Kurt Vonnegut, and that was really my way into
Speaker 7: the story. You know, my background again, investigative journalism. I've
Speaker 7: gone down those dark road investigated serial killers.
Speaker 6: The first book I ever wrote.
Speaker 7: It was a personal memoir about the Boston strangler case.
Speaker 7: And that's because my aunt, nineteen year old Mary Sullivan,
Speaker 7: who was the youngest and final victim of that notorious
Speaker 7: nineteen sixties murder spree.
Speaker 6: So Dan I grew up on Ticcok.
Speaker 7: I'd heard about the Tony cost of murders, and I
Speaker 7: never gave them too much attention because I had my
Speaker 7: own family trauma to be dealing with, and the cost
Speaker 7: and murders were discussed in the community almost as a joke.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 7: Tony Costa was the boogeyman, if you will. They nick
Speaker 7: named him Tony Chop Chow. And during the height of.
Speaker 6: The pandemic, just to get out of the house, I.
Speaker 7: Took my brother on a ride through Provincetown and Commercial Street,
Speaker 7: which is normally pretty busy, is just deserted and we're
Speaker 7: talking about the ghosts real and imagining in Provenstown, which
Speaker 7: ultimately led us to discussing Tony Costa and When I
Speaker 7: went back to my writing office, I did a little research,
Speaker 7: and I didn't you know, I realized for the first
Speaker 7: time just how brutal these crimes were. And it was
Speaker 7: a story I wanted to tell, but I had to
Speaker 7: tell it in a different way, and I chose that
Speaker 7: literary way of telling it through the eyes of these
Speaker 7: two competing journalists and floodgoing authors at the time.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about these two incredible American writers, but
Speaker 5: they were at different positions in their literary careers in
Speaker 5: terms of success. Where was Wonnagut and where was Norman
Speaker 5: Mailer in terms of the books that they were writing,
Speaker 5: and where their careers were at this time.
Speaker 7: Sure, and that is a part of the story I
Speaker 7: found very fascinating. Norman Mahler had been a household name
Speaker 7: since publishing The Naked and the Dead in the late forties.
Speaker 7: He was living in Provincetown. He had just run for
Speaker 7: mayor of New York. He was basically the keeper of
Speaker 7: Ernest Hemingway's claim in terms of being this very outgoing
Speaker 7: personality who just happened to be a very brilliant writer. Now,
Speaker 7: Kurt Vonnegut was the opposite spectrum. He was living just
Speaker 7: down the road in Barnstable, Massachusetts, where I grew up,
Speaker 7: a few miles away from Provincetown. And he'd been working
Speaker 7: as a writer for about twenty years, writing science fiction
Speaker 7: novels that he really couldn't sell. He was out of money,
Speaker 7: all of his books were out of print. He was
Speaker 7: not only caring for his own children, but the children
Speaker 7: of his deceased sister, who adopted after she died. So
Speaker 7: he's struggling financially and creatively, and he's working on a
Speaker 7: novel that will ultimately be Slaughterhouse by you know, what
Speaker 7: he called the big Kaboom of his career. But in
Speaker 7: early nineteen sixty nine and especially nineteen sixty eight, he's
Speaker 7: not there yet. So you have this rivalry between two authors.
Speaker 7: It's actually a one sided rivalry because Vonnegut wanted everything
Speaker 7: that Norman Mailer had, and both of them were nibbling
Speaker 7: around the edges of this very terrifying serial murder case
Speaker 7: that was unfolding in their backyards.
Speaker 5: At the same time you say that, you write that
Speaker 5: Vonnegut realized that Mailer had been very, very successful telling
Speaker 5: his war story, and they were both in the infantry
Speaker 5: and in similar positions, and so Vonnegut had this moment
Speaker 5: where he realized he needed, he very desperately needed to
Speaker 5: write about his own experience in Dresden, Germany and Slaughterhouse five.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it becomes the anti war book of for
Speaker 7: a generation. You know, Vonnegut eclipses everything that Norman Mailer
Speaker 7: had done. Norman Mailer had served in the Pacific Theater.
Speaker 7: Vonnegut was a prisoner of war during the worst fire
Speaker 7: bombing in the European Theater in Dresden, Germany, you know,
Speaker 7: by Allied bombs, and he had to clean up much
Speaker 7: of that city. We're talking about, you know, scorched bodies.
Speaker 7: You know, there was a zoo in Dresden that all
Speaker 7: of the you know, animals that survived the bombing and
Speaker 7: now were roaming the streets, including you know, a lion
Speaker 7: that was you know, eating the charred.
Speaker 6: Flesh of victims.
Speaker 7: Never realized that Kurt Vonnegut, seeing that horror, would be
Speaker 7: facing something equally as horrific, at least in his mind.
Speaker 7: You know, when he came back in the in the
Speaker 7: you know, dunes in the woods of Cape Cott.
Speaker 5: You said, with the arrest, there was the Bristol County
Speaker 5: District Attorney Edmund Denise. Yeah, sure, if that's the pronunciation.
Speaker 6: You have the pronunciation right exactly.
Speaker 5: You right, that he felt his political ship had come
Speaker 5: in with this case. And he'd also seen the Attorney
Speaker 5: General Ed Brooke manipulating the media and all the way
Speaker 5: to the US Senate only three years before. So he
Speaker 5: really thought that this was his ticket to fame and fortune.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he really did. You know.
Speaker 7: Ed Brooke rode the Boston strangler case all the way
Speaker 7: to the US Senate. He was the Attorney General of
Speaker 7: Massachusetts at the time, took over the case, you know,
Speaker 7: blamed all eleve in Boston Strangler murders on one person,
Speaker 7: never even brought that person, Albert to Salvo, to trial
Speaker 7: for it, but basically convicted to Salvo and the port
Speaker 7: of public opinions. So Ed Denise is watching Ed Brooke
Speaker 7: and learning from him. And here is a case similar
Speaker 7: to the Boston strangler case that Ed Denise can take,
Speaker 7: really take and run with.
Speaker 6: So Ed Denise.
Speaker 7: Exaggerates some of the instances in these murders, and he
Speaker 7: didn't have to. These murders were ultimately barbaric on their
Speaker 7: own front. But Ed Denise begins to call Tony Costa
Speaker 7: the cape cod vampire that you know. He starts to
Speaker 7: talk about Costa cannibalizing his victim, which he didn't do.
Speaker 7: It was about the only thing cost that did not
Speaker 7: do to his victims. But ed Denise looks at this,
Speaker 7: he loves the attention that the case is providing him.
Speaker 6: And then all of a sudden, you know.
Speaker 7: Senator Edward Kennedy goes off a bridge and chap Equittic
Speaker 7: with a young woman named Mary Joe Kopecne, and that
Speaker 7: diverts ed Denise's attention to this case and really kind
Speaker 7: of shakes up and ruins his career, because how do
Speaker 7: you prosecute a canon in Kennedy country. In nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 7: Ted Kennedy was probably the most powerful politician, if not
Speaker 7: in the country or if not in the world, I
Speaker 7: should say definitely in the country. You know, the keeper
Speaker 7: of the flame for the Kennedy legacy.
Speaker 6: And I dove into.
Speaker 7: The grand jury testimony in chap Equitic and it was
Speaker 7: horrifying to know that Senator Kennedy allowed a woman who
Speaker 7: was alive to suffocate in the backseat of his vehicle
Speaker 7: while while he escaped, and Ed Denise was put in
Speaker 7: a very difficult position, as I said, because how do
Speaker 7: you how do you prosecute somebody like that? And ultimately
Speaker 7: the case blows up in his face. So Costa eventually
Speaker 7: becomes his redemption story. He's going to put Costa to trial,
Speaker 7: and he does.
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Speaker 5: were talking about Edmund Denis and his incredible problem with
Speaker 5: the Chapaquidic case that he had to be prosecuting. At
Speaker 5: the same time, his new best friend is Kurt Vonnegut.
Speaker 5: What does he tell Kurt Vonnegut and tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit about the relationship that develops between them.
Speaker 7: Sure, Vonnagut is writing an article for Life.
Speaker 6: Magazine about the case.
Speaker 7: So there's a relationship, you know, that builds between Vonnegut
Speaker 7: and Denise because Vonnagut is trying to get access for
Speaker 7: information and access to the killer himself, and Denise is
Speaker 7: dangling that carrot. And Denise is very excited because you know,
Speaker 7: at this time Slaughterhouse five has now been published, and
Speaker 7: Kurt Vonnegut is a rising literary stock, and ed Denise
Speaker 7: uses Vonnegut as well as Vonnegut using Denise for information,
Speaker 7: and Ed Denise is convinced that, you know, there are
Speaker 7: possibly hundreds of bodies in the Truer Woods, you know,
Speaker 7: from this serial killer. Now they were never able to find,
Speaker 7: you know any more you know cost of victims if
Speaker 7: you will. But there's a relationship that's you know, exploited
Speaker 7: in a way. Each is taking advantage of another to
Speaker 7: write about this case and prosecute this case.
Speaker 5: Now, Norman Mailer, like you mentioned, is very very interested
Speaker 5: in as well, but he doesn't have this connection. But
Speaker 5: what he does have is some interaction with some of
Speaker 5: the disciples of Tony Costa. Tell us about this interaction.
Speaker 7: Sure well, I mean as young women were incredibly frightening,
Speaker 7: much like you know Susan Atkins and Squeaky from in
Speaker 7: the Manson family. You had young women in Provincetown that
Speaker 7: were harassing, intimidating people, and they certainly, you know, scared
Speaker 7: Norman Mailer. And Mailer is interesting because he's also walking
Speaker 7: the fire between sanity and an ultimate evil. Now, Norman
Speaker 7: Mailer stabbed his second wife, a Dell, with a pen
Speaker 7: knife during a party in nineteen sixty probably should have
Speaker 7: gone to prison for at least thirty years because she
Speaker 7: almost died, but she did not testify against him because
Speaker 7: they had two children together.
Speaker 6: Years later, Norman Mailer.
Speaker 7: Is an experimental filmmaker and gets into a fistfight with
Speaker 7: the actor Ripped Torn on film and anybody that goes
Speaker 7: onto YouTube can watch it, and it's a very vicious
Speaker 7: fist fight where Mailer is attacked by Torn and the
Speaker 7: cameras are rolling and this is not, you.
Speaker 6: Know, stage play, this is real.
Speaker 7: So Mailer, you know, we called Miller always called writing
Speaker 7: the spooky arc, and he was certainly interested in exploring
Speaker 7: the darkness within himself, and he does so through Tony
Speaker 7: Costa's disciples. He has a relationship with a crime reporter
Speaker 7: on Cape cod Her name was Evelyn Lawson, and Evelyn
Speaker 7: was a theater critic term crime reporter which is completely
Speaker 7: and usual, and she was the one to kind of
Speaker 7: bring in the possibility that this was not just a
Speaker 7: lone killer at work, but could have been the work
Speaker 7: of the occult, especially at that time.
Speaker 5: You also talk about that Deny finds out about potentially
Speaker 5: more victims. Bonnie Williams and Diane Federoff, and but also
Speaker 5: finds out about Christine Gallant and the bathtub suicide.
Speaker 7: Tell us love that, yeah, about the I mean that
Speaker 7: was that was written off as an overdose, and you
Speaker 7: know they were this Christine Gallant was like the other women,
Speaker 7: very lowered to Tony Costa. Tony Costa was with Christine
Speaker 7: Gallant the night before her body ends up in the
Speaker 7: bathtub as an overdose. But the medical examiner, doctor Michael Botten,
Speaker 7: was now a very prominent forensic psychologist and a friend
Speaker 7: of mine. He overlooked, you know, some of the bruising
Speaker 7: on her body that was the ultimate result of violence
Speaker 7: against her committed by Tony Costa. You've got these other
Speaker 7: two women who turned missing in California. You know, it's
Speaker 7: interesting that Tony Costa and Charles Manson are living in
Speaker 7: San Francisco at about the same time, yes, you know,
Speaker 7: and living within that hippie culture.
Speaker 6: So there's a likelihood that they may.
Speaker 7: Have crossed paths as both were evolving into you know,
Speaker 7: these murderous messiahs.
Speaker 5: Now, in terms of the defense of Tony Costa, what
Speaker 5: does he say to Maurice Goldman, in terms of who
Speaker 5: is responsible? What what do his claim?
Speaker 6: Well, it goes back to.
Speaker 7: His alter ego, but he claims that, you know, it's
Speaker 7: a real person in Provencetown, a young man gives the
Speaker 7: name of and claims that the murders were committed by
Speaker 7: by this man. Now, you know, the defense attorneys want
Speaker 7: to obviously offer the insanity defense, because how could anybody
Speaker 7: of sane mind commit these types of atrocities. But Tony
Speaker 7: Costo does not want to pursue the insanity defense. He
Speaker 7: wants a straight defense. And you know, there are many
Speaker 7: times during the investigation where you know, the lawyers were
Speaker 7: almost going to quit the case because they knew that
Speaker 7: they could not legitimately represent Costa and claim that these
Speaker 7: weren't the work of Tony Costa but the work of
Speaker 7: somebody else. Tony Costa was at the scene of these crimes,
Speaker 7: he committed these murders. He tried to blame these murders
Speaker 7: on other people because he thought he was smarter than
Speaker 7: everybody else. But you know, not only did the prosecution
Speaker 7: see through it, but the defense attorneys did as well,
Speaker 7: and ultimately the jurors did. Now imagine Cape cod nineteen
Speaker 7: sixty nine, Dan, you know, these jurors are from a
Speaker 7: very idyllic place in the United States, Cape cod You know,
Speaker 7: the rate of crime there is very low compared to
Speaker 7: other places, and they're confronted with the most atrocious, you know,
Speaker 7: serial murders that I think have ever been committed in
Speaker 7: the United States, and they're committed in this idyllic town
Speaker 7: that you know, brings in people from all over the
Speaker 7: world every year.
Speaker 5: Now, this story has gained national and international prominence. But
Speaker 5: August ninth, nineteen sixty nine, Linda Kassebian and others, what
Speaker 5: happens to put this story on the back burner incredibly.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, Charles Manson and his family commit in
Speaker 7: a two strings of homicides, the first against Sharon Tate,
Speaker 7: the actress Roman Polanski's wife by the way, and her
Speaker 7: house guests, which included Jay Sebring, who is a celebrity hairstylist,
Speaker 7: and Abigail Folger, the heiress of the Folgier copy fortune
Speaker 7: and victims were bertilized, shot stabbed. They were famous, which
Speaker 7: ultimately led to the Manson murders being splashed on the
Speaker 7: front pages of every newspaper and magazine in the country
Speaker 7: of not the world, and taking the cost of murders
Speaker 7: off the front page and Tony cost of a serial
Speaker 7: killer on cap God recognized this and wrote about it
Speaker 7: to his attorneys, and you know, in one missive says,
Speaker 7: maybe we should have killed somebody famous, because the murders
Speaker 7: ultimately get lost to history, and the Mansons are the
Speaker 7: epitome of spree killing in American if not world history,
Speaker 7: and continue to be talked about and discussed and filmed.
Speaker 7: You know, fifty years after the crime, you know that
Speaker 7: the costume murders weren't that at all. They were lost
Speaker 7: to history until you know, really the publication of my book,
Speaker 7: health him tell.
Speaker 5: Us what happens at trial. Corey Devereux, the person that
Speaker 5: he points to is also his alter ego, testifies at trial.
Speaker 5: I'll tell us some of the goings on atch just trial.
Speaker 7: I mean, the trial is basically a farce where you
Speaker 7: have you know, a lot of the cost of disciples
Speaker 7: on the stand, drugged out on the stand.
Speaker 6: By the way. I don't want to get too much
Speaker 6: because I want people to read it in the book,
Speaker 6: but it's quite a circus.
Speaker 7: And obviously, going over the materials, you know that that
Speaker 7: had to be included as exhibits in this murder were
Speaker 7: just outrageous, and you know, you had the families of
Speaker 7: these young women in the courtroom, which is always just
Speaker 7: my heart.
Speaker 6: Goes out to the families of these young women.
Speaker 7: And when I wrote Helltown, I wanted to really talk
Speaker 7: about them as people, not just as statistics, not as
Speaker 7: you know, victim number one or victim number four. You know,
Speaker 7: they had names, they had families, they had hopes, they
Speaker 7: had dreams, and they were all all of that was
Speaker 7: stolen from them by one of the worst killers in
Speaker 7: world history.
Speaker 5: You say that they tried to amount a defense of
Speaker 5: some kind of diminished capacity based on LSD drug use.
Speaker 7: Of course you said, definitely became the defense used, and
Speaker 7: Costa got behind it, and you know, makes a very
Speaker 7: eloquent speech, you know, to the judge upon sentencing. And
Speaker 7: I'm not going to get into that because I want
Speaker 7: people to read the book, but that was you know,
Speaker 7: their last stab, if you will, at at least, you know,
Speaker 7: getting some type of reduced sentence or allowing Costa to
Speaker 7: be put into a mental facility as opposed to Walpole
Speaker 7: State Prison. And Costa, you know, amazingly believed that he
Speaker 7: would have the opportunity to walk the streets again and
Speaker 7: go back to Provincetown, which was absolutely insane, because you know,
Speaker 7: you don't commit these types of murders and get put
Speaker 7: back on the streets.
Speaker 6: You know, you either get buried.
Speaker 7: Into the mental health system or you get buried into
Speaker 7: the penal system and ultimately cost that was put into
Speaker 7: the worst person in Massachusetts where he committed suicide in
Speaker 7: nineteen seventy four.
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Speaker 5: Now, you talked about his suicide, but we also didn't
Speaker 5: mention that Vonnegut's story in life magazine is not well
Speaker 5: received at all. So what about his idea to further
Speaker 5: write a book about this case.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, I think, you know, Vonnagult, because Vonnegut is
Speaker 7: a satirist, you know, incorporated a lot of you know,
Speaker 7: macarb humor in his Life magazine article, and it wasn't
Speaker 7: well received, you know on Cape cod again, it's you know,
Speaker 7: especially in Provinstound people circle of wagons around Tony Costa.
Speaker 7: I think Vonnagut's article was fine, but they certainly didn't
Speaker 7: think so. So you know, Vonnagut wants to continue to
Speaker 7: correspond and get a face to face with the killer,
Speaker 7: which he ultimately does.
Speaker 5: Now back to these disciples are very very interesting. Can
Speaker 5: you tell us about Strawberry Blonde?
Speaker 6: Sure?
Speaker 7: These you know, I had to create composite characters in
Speaker 7: the book just because you know, I couldn't really put
Speaker 7: their names out there.
Speaker 6: But these were women. As I said that, we're.
Speaker 7: Committing crimes and intimidating people, you know, in the name
Speaker 7: of Tony Costa. And after Tony Costa commits suicide in
Speaker 7: nineteen seventy four, a month later, a young woman's body
Speaker 7: is discovered in Provincetown and the dunes, and she is dismembered,
Speaker 7: and the murder has all the earmarks of a Tony
Speaker 7: Costa murder. Now, Costa couldn't have committed that crime. He
Speaker 7: was in Walpole at the time where he already committed suicide.
Speaker 7: But you mentioned Strawberry Blonde, who was the disciple and
Speaker 7: follower of Costa's who I believe lord this nameless woman
Speaker 7: because her identity has never been determined, into the dunes
Speaker 7: of Provincetown to commit murder to appease Tony Costa's restless spirit.
Speaker 7: And that's my theory as to what had happened in
Speaker 7: that case. They call that case the Lady and the Dunes,
Speaker 7: and it's an ongoing mystery on Cape Cod.
Speaker 5: You talk about hell Town in your author's note, what
Speaker 5: this book represents to you and what you discovered in
Speaker 5: the writing of this tell us about that.
Speaker 7: Sure, you know, I think I've written true crime as well,
Speaker 7: if not better, than anybody that's ever done. I have
Speaker 7: that experience, and after fifteen books that have all been
Speaker 7: widely acclaimed, I was looking at this case and I
Speaker 7: wanted I was inspired by you know, the writing of
Speaker 7: Norman Mailer, the writing of Kurt Vonnegan. Even my collaboration
Speaker 7: with James Patterson. My last book was called The Last
Speaker 7: Days of John Lennon with Patterson and Patterson and these
Speaker 7: other incredible office including Ernest Hemingway.
Speaker 6: By the way, you know, they.
Speaker 7: Wrote about real situations and you know, lace their stories
Speaker 7: with factual scenarios, but they also sprinkle in fictionalized moments
Speaker 7: to provide the connective tissue with the story. And that's
Speaker 7: what I did here with Helltown. All of the facts
Speaker 7: of this case are all too real, and they're all
Speaker 7: in the book. Everything you read about Tony cost really happened.
Speaker 7: I had to create storytelling elements again to provide a
Speaker 7: breather for the reader because the material is incredibly disturbing
Speaker 7: at times, and I wanted the reader to go on
Speaker 7: a journey and read an incredible tale, but ultimately know
Speaker 7: that this really happened.
Speaker 5: You talk about that you were hesitant to do this
Speaker 5: book because it took so much out of you writing
Speaker 5: about your aunt Mary Sullivan arose from Mary.
Speaker 6: That's right.
Speaker 7: You know I've been down those you know, I've been
Speaker 7: into those dark corners and down those dark alleys. I
Speaker 7: wasn't looking to revisit a serial killer case. But you
Speaker 7: know when people like Tom Gunnery had been reaching out
Speaker 7: to me for several years asking me to take a
Speaker 7: look at this case, and I never would, And then
Speaker 7: I did, and I realized this story has to be
Speaker 7: told the courage of people like Tom Gunnery, the end
Speaker 7: of that.
Speaker 6: It has to be revealed to the world.
Speaker 7: These women have to be talked about, and their memories
Speaker 7: have to be cherished and sustained, and the ultimate evil
Speaker 7: of Tony Costa has to be also written about and
Speaker 7: explained in any way possible.
Speaker 5: What was Norman Mahler's idea about writing a book? How
Speaker 5: did that work out for him? What did he do well?
Speaker 7: He cherry picked all of the most gruesome elements of
Speaker 7: Alacosta case and transformed them into a novel called Tough
Speaker 7: Guys Don't Dance, which he published in the early nineteen eighties,
Speaker 7: about a young struggling writer who was going through hallucinations
Speaker 7: and doesn't know whether or not he killed the young
Speaker 7: woman and then dismembered her and buried her in his
Speaker 7: marijuana patch in Tura. It's pretty interesting, kind of a
Speaker 7: pulp book of Noura's book, if you will, pulp fiction
Speaker 7: book and He ultimately put that book on the big
Speaker 7: screen in a film which he wrote and directed, starring
Speaker 7: at Ryan O'Neill, and that was that movie was filmed
Speaker 7: on location in Provincetown in the mid nineteen eighties. And
Speaker 7: you know, Mailer had always said this was the case
Speaker 7: that terrified him and horrified him more so than any
Speaker 7: other case that he had read about or been a
Speaker 7: part of during his very illustrious writing career.
Speaker 5: You talk about a write about confrontation he has too
Speaker 5: with one of the disciples and basically saying that it
Speaker 5: strengthened his resolve with that confrontation.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, and that's that's a that's a moment
Speaker 7: of the book. I just want to breathe and let
Speaker 7: the reader discover. But you know, Mailer was always trying
Speaker 7: to test himself, you know, test his masculinity, test his manhood,
Speaker 7: and this was a way for him to do that.
Speaker 5: You include a letter, a personal letter from Kurt Vonnegut
Speaker 5: Junior to your father. Tell us about this and why
Speaker 5: you chose to include it. What does it say?
Speaker 7: Was it interesting? I mean, you know, as I said,
Speaker 7: I grew up on tip Cod. You know, my uncle
Speaker 7: dated Edie Vonnegut knew the family quite well. My father
Speaker 7: was a struggling graphic artist in the nineteen seventies and
Speaker 7: he was living in Hyennas, raising two kids, and he
Speaker 7: wrote Kurt Vonnegut a letter asking him to take a
Speaker 7: look at some of his work, whether or not it
Speaker 7: was good enough to illustrate or you know, one of
Speaker 7: Vonnagut's covers. And so Vonnagut wrote him back a very
Speaker 7: tough letter critiquing my father's approach, saying, you cannot me
Speaker 7: a success, you know, working out of your mail boss
Speaker 7: on C Street in Hyennas. You need to go to
Speaker 7: New York and you know, and that was a letter
Speaker 7: that my father obviously didn't take very well. My family
Speaker 7: didn't take it well.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 6: It was kept in a drawer in my home for decades.
Speaker 7: And when I began to explore Vonnegut, you know, in
Speaker 7: this project, I reread that letter with fresh eyes. I
Speaker 7: think it's a great letter because I think Vonnagut was
Speaker 7: writing to his younger self. Wonnaguet had spent twenty years
Speaker 7: as a commercial failure on Cape Cod and he was,
Speaker 7: you know, telling my father in his own way, not
Speaker 7: to repeat Wonnagut's mistakes, So I think it's a beautiful letter.
Speaker 7: I've got the letter now framed and hanging, you know,
Speaker 7: on the wall of my home. You know, Vonnagut didn't
Speaker 7: have to take the time, you know, to reach out
Speaker 7: to this young artist, but he did absolutely.
Speaker 5: When we first mentioned, when we first talked about this
Speaker 5: your book, there was the book, the book planned by
Speaker 5: Tony Costa Resurrection. Did you get a chance to read
Speaker 5: any of that?
Speaker 7: I read it all, and you know, it's interesting because
Speaker 7: it puts the killer at the sea into the crime,
Speaker 7: you know, in his own way that he writes about it.
Speaker 6: So you know, I took a lot.
Speaker 7: Of that information and harvested it and used it in Helltown.
Speaker 7: You know, the way that these murders happened were described
Speaker 7: by the killer himself. So really, for the first time,
Speaker 7: the reader really gets to understand and see these murders
Speaker 7: through the eyes of the serial killer himself.
Speaker 5: I want to thank you so much for coming on
Speaker 5: and talking about Helltown, the Untold story of a serial
Speaker 5: Killer on Cape cod For people that might want to
Speaker 5: check out more about this, tell us about your Twitter
Speaker 5: and Facebook.
Speaker 7: Anybody can follow me on Instagram at Casey Sherman writs
Speaker 7: on Twitter at Casey Sherman one two three. You can
Speaker 7: find Helltown at any bookstore anywhere in the United States.
Speaker 7: You can order it online at Amazon or Barnes and
Speaker 7: Noble or Target or anywhere books are sold. I'm currently
Speaker 7: adapting the material or a limited series, and my producing
Speaker 7: partner is Robert Downey Junior and his company Downey. So we're,
Speaker 7: you know, working with networks right now to find our
Speaker 7: select partner for this project and we hope to be
Speaker 7: shooting hopefully on location in Provincetown sometime in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 5: It's impressive and very exciting. Also, could you tell us
Speaker 5: about your Saints and Center podcast?
Speaker 6: Please? Sure, thank you.
Speaker 7: I co host a podcast called Saints, Sinners and Serial
Speaker 7: Killers with my oftentimes writing partner, Dave Wedge, and we
Speaker 7: take readers through all of our investigations over the past
Speaker 7: twenty years, including the Boston Strangler, including the hunt for
Speaker 7: Whitey Bulger, the Elusive Mobster, including the Boston Marathon bombs
Speaker 7: which we wrote about, and ultimately our book became the
Speaker 7: hit film Patriots State with Mark Wahlberg. So but to
Speaker 7: ask anybody to you know, look for that podcast. We're
Speaker 7: heading into our third season in September.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Casey Sherman, Helltown, the ontold story
Speaker 5: of a serial killer on Cape cod Thank you so
Speaker 5: much for this interview. You have a great evening, Casey Sherman.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Dan, Thank you