Speaker 1: Welcome to the nonprofits.
Speaker 2: In our second segment this week, we take another look
Speaker 2: at Texas and see how they're just making the world
Speaker 2: into a horrible, horrible place. Helen Green, I almost don't
Speaker 2: want to know, but tell us anyway. What else is
Speaker 2: happening down in the lone Star state.
Speaker 3: So massagety really doesn't have any limits. And while lawmickers
Speaker 3: make laws against people who can get pregnant and manifests
Speaker 3: in really ugly ways, imagine being a doctor in Texas,
Speaker 3: providing reproductive care for years and having to make some
Speaker 3: pretty big decisions in regards to you keeping your medical
Speaker 3: license or refusing people care. This causes some desperate women
Speaker 3: to seek help from random people who aren't qualified aka
Speaker 3: back alley abortions. As more and more people find themselves
Speaker 3: pregnant and out of options, this manifestation of a broken
Speaker 3: medical system and sexism that leads to people taking some
Speaker 3: pretty big risks and arrest for people for the most part,
Speaker 3: have good intentions yet are underqualified to perform such a
Speaker 3: risky medical procedure. The anti choice crowd is now seeing
Speaker 3: the fruits of what they sewed, and the crop is rotten.
Speaker 3: This story is from ABC thirteen Houston by ABC Houston
Speaker 3: on March twenty five.
Speaker 1: All Right, all right, thank you, Helen.
Speaker 2: So we've seen in the article pro choice supporters say
Speaker 2: that the unnecessary restrictions of access to safe abortions will
Speaker 2: push pregnant individuals to unsafe methods. Could you expand on
Speaker 2: what we mean when we say unsafe abortions.
Speaker 3: So, for example, the woman for the woman that was
Speaker 3: in the article, she was a midwife that got arrested
Speaker 3: and she used a medication that's typically used to induce abortions. Now,
Speaker 3: luckily she was a midwife, she did have some obstetratics,
Speaker 3: obstric obstetrician non knowledge. I can say words, she had
Speaker 3: a at least that metal book medical background. But you're
Speaker 3: going to see there see things as we go along.
Speaker 3: People like I always hate using this this word because
Speaker 3: this imagey because it's a mixing cringe. Is those you know,
Speaker 3: using a wire hanger to you know, to induce, you know,
Speaker 3: to have an abortion. There's sort of medications that you
Speaker 3: can take, there's there's a bunch of different things that
Speaker 3: you can do to end a pregnancy. But the problem
Speaker 3: is is that if you at some point you may
Speaker 3: need to go see a medical professional. Now, most in
Speaker 3: a world where women would have access to go just
Speaker 3: see colleges and ask for one, you know, and discuss
Speaker 3: it with our doctor. We are now facing the fact
Speaker 3: that since a lot of a lot of states are
Speaker 3: now have abortion either illegal or very very limited, these
Speaker 3: women are going to start asking, you know, people that
Speaker 3: may have some medical knowledge to help them, you know,
Speaker 3: but don't have a license to practice, or they have
Speaker 3: a license practice but been a completely different field, you know,
Speaker 3: seek out other help to do this under the radar.
Speaker 3: And we saw and a lot of women last time
Speaker 3: we did is everybody. A lot of woman died. So
Speaker 3: not the best, guys, it's not the best. I'll go
Speaker 3: into some.
Speaker 1: Stats later, but okay, all right, Well let's jump over
Speaker 1: to Jimmy.
Speaker 2: Then Helen was talking about unsafe abortions, how they might happen,
Speaker 2: et cetera.
Speaker 1: Now, since Roe v. V.
Speaker 2: Wade was overturned back in twenty twenty two, it seems
Speaker 2: like so long ago has Texas seen any changes in
Speaker 2: pregnancy related health outcomes.
Speaker 4: Well, sure they have seen well more pregnancies, they've seen
Speaker 4: more pregnancies be carried to term. But they're also seeing
Speaker 4: pregnancies that have congenital failure come the term as well.
Speaker 4: Women are being forced to carry to term their babies
Speaker 4: that they end up having to just watch die, you know,
Speaker 4: when they know that the child is not going to
Speaker 4: make it in life, but they have to give birth
Speaker 4: to it anyway because the abortion is illegal. There have
Speaker 4: been some studies that I want to reference here. So
Speaker 4: according to the Gender Equity Policy Institute's study from September
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four, pregnancy deaths and infant mortality rates in
Speaker 4: Texas have risen fifty six percent. And this of course,
Speaker 4: of course disproportionately affects poor and minority communities. And we
Speaker 4: could liken it back to the conversation that we had
Speaker 4: on Monday night when we talk about, you know, a
Speaker 4: lack of access to healthcare, just like there's a lack
Speaker 4: of access to you know, other forms of administration. You know,
Speaker 4: we were talking about driver's licenses and IDs the other night.
Speaker 4: You know, people in poor communit these have less likelihood
Speaker 4: of obtaining those things, while the same goes for medical care.
Speaker 4: And so you know, that is something that's disproportionately affecting
Speaker 4: African American and Latino folks. A study by John Hopkins
Speaker 4: University found that African American infant mortality rates are up
Speaker 4: eleven percent higher than the Dobbs decision. And yeah, so
Speaker 4: this is this is just a different world for a
Speaker 4: lot of poor people, but for a lot of women
Speaker 4: in general, these abnormalities, you know, they're not allowed to
Speaker 4: take care of them in the pregnancy. They have to
Speaker 4: take them to term and then and then watch their
Speaker 4: child die, which is unfortunate. I have heard of other statistics,
Speaker 4: not particularly with Texas, but just as a whole women
Speaker 4: dying either in birth or excuse me, yeah, while giving
Speaker 4: birth or because of botched at home ad hoc abortion techniques.
Speaker 4: That is also a factor to increased death after this
Speaker 4: and these these studies come from NBC News under Women's
Speaker 4: Health and then Public Health dot Jhu dot Edu, twenty
Speaker 4: twenty five, and you can find those studies there.
Speaker 2: I just want to highlight one of those stats that
Speaker 2: you just brought up. Pregnancy deaths and infant mortality rates
Speaker 2: in Texas have risen fifty six percent. That is insane.
Speaker 2: That's insane, and it amazes me that Texans aren't furious
Speaker 2: about this. It's fifty six percent. That's crazy. That's crazy
Speaker 2: and it's really infuriating to see that kind of thing
Speaker 2: happen in the modern world and in a modern country,
Speaker 2: well in what's supposed to be a modern country. I mean,
Speaker 2: we can talk all day about how our health outcomes
Speaker 2: across the board are going down when compared to other
Speaker 2: developed nations just because we have such a shitty healthcare system.
Speaker 1: But I mean this, I don't know.
Speaker 2: It just to me that one number alone would be
Speaker 2: a deal breaking right there.
Speaker 3: And does that include long term health complications you can
Speaker 3: have if your pregnancy goes wrong. It doesn't include women
Speaker 3: that have gone septic. It doesn't include women that like
Speaker 3: bleed out in parking lots because they can't get access
Speaker 3: to the healthcare that they need. So that's just let's
Speaker 3: just all say anything about that for a little bit, everybody.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, Helen brings up a good point. What
Speaker 4: about the data that's not being captured because it's not
Speaker 4: being recorded. You know, there's there are people that try
Speaker 4: to avoid arrest and try to avoid getting other people
Speaker 4: arrested for helping them because that that, unfortunately in Texas,
Speaker 4: is a law. But you know, Scott, you say, where
Speaker 4: where are the Texans. Where are the women in Texas like,
Speaker 4: forget about forget about your socioeconomic or your racial or
Speaker 4: your ethnic differences, whatever it is. You know, women in
Speaker 4: Texas need to recognize that even if you're a white
Speaker 4: Christian nationalist woman, women are being impacted by this. And
Speaker 4: this is not the last stop, right, This only gets
Speaker 4: worse from here.
Speaker 2: So great, Yeah, I mean we're still in the testing phase.
Speaker 2: You know, they're pushing to see how far what they
Speaker 2: can get away with and that kind of thing. And yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's going to get worse before it gets better unless,
Speaker 2: you know, unless we turn things around sooner. It's just
Speaker 2: really frustrating.
Speaker 1: Helen.
Speaker 2: I want to jump over to you for a second here,
Speaker 2: and I want to talk a little bit about the
Speaker 2: law itself. So the article indicated that this particular arrest
Speaker 2: was made with the help of a whistleblower that may
Speaker 2: have been taken advantage of the so called Texas bounty law,
Speaker 2: which rewards citizen whistleblowers with cash bounty in these cases.
Speaker 2: Are these bounty laws a legitimate approach to law enforcement
Speaker 2: allowing for community participation in self policing. I mean, that
Speaker 2: would be kind of the happy face, you know, way
Speaker 2: of presenting this or is it more of an attempt
Speaker 2: to pit neighbor against neighbor and divide us even further would?
Speaker 2: I mean, do you think that it can be argued
Speaker 2: that this is actually helping law enforcement or is it
Speaker 2: really just harming communities.
Speaker 3: I want to point out that this story is airing
Speaker 3: on my birthday and this is a shitty birthday present.
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna point that out right now. So in
Speaker 3: regards to what you said, Scott, it's the latter because
Speaker 3: it whistleblower. You just said it yourself. And also too,
Speaker 3: the reason why it has to happen this way is
Speaker 3: because they can't have a cop you know, searching every
Speaker 3: home and when you know, I find out a woman
Speaker 3: is pregnant and find out if she's going to you know,
Speaker 3: use other means to enter pregnancy right like, they can't,
Speaker 3: so they have to rely on people reporting. And also
Speaker 3: since Texas isn't doing that great financially, they they're facing
Speaker 3: some serious economic problems as well. This is an incentive,
Speaker 3: you know, and even people that you know, some people
Speaker 3: that do have the money, they're just jerks, you know,
Speaker 3: and they'll you know, pid neighbor gets neighbor. If they're racist,
Speaker 3: if they don't like a person, I mean, like, you know,
Speaker 3: I like, I like what happened in Germany, what happened
Speaker 3: during the witch trials. What happens when you are told
Speaker 3: to pud neighbor person against person, you're going to start
Speaker 3: some people are just going to start squawking. And that
Speaker 3: puts also puts people like us, who our good people,
Speaker 3: in a really weird position because if you know your
Speaker 3: neighbor is performing you know, illegal abortions. But also, on
Speaker 3: the other hand, if a woman doesn't you know what,
Speaker 3: if your friend is pregnant, needs to get care, needs
Speaker 3: to have an abortion. Like let's say she has an
Speaker 3: atopic predigancy, which is kills you. It will kill a
Speaker 3: woman if it goes a term like it will just
Speaker 3: not term it just because the way that it is
Speaker 3: attached to, so Floppian tube is the whole thing is bad.
Speaker 3: So let's just say you know that, what do you do.
Speaker 3: Do you risk your friend being arrested because you'll have
Speaker 3: to report them, or do you risk your friend friend
Speaker 3: you know, getting you know, some kind of illegal healthcare
Speaker 3: that may not may or may not be you know,
Speaker 3: something that they're able to do, and so it puts
Speaker 3: people in these really sort of moral coundrees. You know
Speaker 3: this really and I it's not simple, guys, Like, none
Speaker 3: of this is simple, because the people that are gonna
Speaker 3: suffer are not only the person that means to have
Speaker 3: this medical procedure, but also the people that are Like
Speaker 3: I said, I think the majority they're going to be
Speaker 3: Charlton's and terrible people and people that are just going
Speaker 3: to take advantage of the system because people suck. But
Speaker 3: you also have you know, people that I think this
Speaker 3: woman that got arrested was well intended. She was a midwife,
Speaker 3: you know, she knew her stuff, you know, and that's
Speaker 3: one of the better ones. Think of all the people
Speaker 3: that you know are going to start performing these things,
Speaker 3: but they don't.
Speaker 2: Know what they're doing, right right, Yeah, Yeah, I want
Speaker 2: to jump over to Jimmy real quick here, Jimmy, I
Speaker 2: want to so I'm going to give you a scenario here,
Speaker 2: and it does relate to what we're talking about. Studies
Speaker 2: have shown that abstinence only sex ed for teens is
Speaker 2: not an effective way for curtailing teen pregnancy. In fact,
Speaker 2: teen pregnancy rates and ironically, abortion rates go up in
Speaker 2: areas that require abstinence only sex ed. It's not that
Speaker 2: sexual abstinence will not lead to fewer pregnancies.
Speaker 1: It will.
Speaker 2: If you don't have sex, you're less likely to be pregnant.
Speaker 2: The problem is abstinence only sex education does not lead
Speaker 2: to abstinence. So bearing that in mind, let's look at
Speaker 2: a twenty eighteen study done by the gut Mocker Institute,
Speaker 2: which found that quote in countries with the fewest restrictions,
Speaker 2: we're talking about abortion restrictions. In countries with the fewest restrictions,
Speaker 2: only one percent of abortions were the quote least safe kind.
Speaker 2: From twenty ten to twenty fourteen, that number jumps to
Speaker 2: thirty one percent in the most restrictive countries. So the
Speaker 2: more a country restricts abortion access, the higher the percentage
Speaker 2: of these unsafe types of pregnancies occur. During the same period,
Speaker 2: abortions happened roughly as frequently in the most restrictive countries
Speaker 2: as they did in the least restrictive thirty seven versus
Speaker 2: thirty four abortions every year for every one thousand women
Speaker 2: age fifteen to forty four. Quick note here that higher
Speaker 2: number was from the more restrictive countries, So it you know,
Speaker 2: if anything, it's it's kind of leaning towards increasing the
Speaker 2: number of ab abortions. My question, then, Jimmy, is so
Speaker 2: we seem to have a similar situation where the proposed restriction,
Speaker 2: which harms minority community is at a much higher rate,
Speaker 2: does not in.
Speaker 1: Fact produce the desired outcomes.
Speaker 2: So if I were to claim that the harm is
Speaker 2: the objective, you know, maybe you've heard that as well,
Speaker 2: the harm the is the goal?
Speaker 1: Here? Does this kind of support that claim? Clearly?
Speaker 2: Adding these laws does not have the affected outcome that
Speaker 2: that they're proposing.
Speaker 1: Is it intended to be a harmful policy?
Speaker 4: Well, let me answer this in two parts. So first
Speaker 4: I will say that it's probably impossible, all right, I'll
Speaker 4: lose that. I use that term loosely because unless you
Speaker 4: absolutely control people's lives, you might be able to control
Speaker 4: their sexual habits, but it's probably damn near impossible to
Speaker 4: control the human instinct to reproduce. Everybody wants to reproduce,
Speaker 4: and even if they don't want a child out of it,
Speaker 4: it's a lot of fun. At least their body tells
Speaker 4: them it's a lot of fun, and it's something they
Speaker 4: want to do, especially if you're a child. These numbers
Speaker 4: that are really high for the most restrictive countries. These
Speaker 4: countries are probably the most conservative countries and the most
Speaker 4: theological countries. We probably there's likely a correlation between dangerous
Speaker 4: or secretive abortions taking place in these countries because people
Speaker 4: do not want to report them, because people don't want
Speaker 4: to be found out, because young women don't want to
Speaker 4: bring dishonor on their families. In a lot of Muslim
Speaker 4: countries maybe, or a lot of countries where the collective
Speaker 4: family value is represented by a female's virginity, maybe in
Speaker 4: places like I don't know, Italy or Spain or some
Speaker 4: African countries where that kind of thing is used as currency.
Speaker 4: So it doesn't surprise me that in countries that would
Speaker 4: restrict and have more conservative laws, you would have more
Speaker 4: breaking of those laws, right so that I would say there,
Speaker 4: I do think that this is harm and it is intended.
Speaker 4: This is and I'm going to use a term that's
Speaker 4: maybe a little bit out there, but I don't think
Speaker 4: we're far off. This is a genocide, if you will,
Speaker 4: against women, and particularly against women of minority populations. This
Speaker 4: is a way for people in power, for the people
Speaker 4: that want to hoard wealth and keep the status quo
Speaker 4: as it is today in April twenty twenty five, where
Speaker 4: the rich are getting richer and the poor are living
Speaker 4: so chaotically that there's nothing they can do to keep
Speaker 4: the rich from maintaining their power. Right if the people
Speaker 4: in in control right now, who I would say largely
Speaker 4: are the conservative politicians who want to keep the coffee
Speaker 4: where it is, who want to keep their seat in
Speaker 4: the House or the rep or the Senate, whether it's
Speaker 4: in the state or the national level, who want things
Speaker 4: to be just like they are and not be challenged
Speaker 4: with a primary They have to carry this out for
Speaker 4: the wealthy donors that they have, and what are they doing.
Speaker 4: They're targeting the minorities. They're making them scared shitless, not
Speaker 4: only for reasons of being deported, but also attacking them
Speaker 4: where it hurts their human instinct, right, taking away their
Speaker 4: bodily autonomy. And so that I think is what we
Speaker 4: are seeing. And then again, this is not just this
Speaker 4: is not just a poor issue. This is not just
Speaker 4: a Latino or a minority issue. This is a women's issue.
Speaker 4: And you know, I think that everybody needs to realize
Speaker 4: that and stand up for the rights that these people,
Speaker 4: these people deserve. And Scott, I hope I answered your question.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, you definitely did. Definitely did, and I completely
Speaker 2: agree with what you were saying there. I think I
Speaker 2: think that it is harm and I think that that
Speaker 2: there is and and I'm glad you brought the religion
Speaker 2: aspect into it. I think that that's important. That's something
Speaker 2: that we hadn't touched on yet, which is kind of amazing.
Speaker 2: You know, the nonprofits, right, that's kind of our niche, right,
Speaker 2: But you know, it's amazing that we can get so
Speaker 2: deep into this story and we hadn't even brought up
Speaker 2: religion yet. And so that just adds another layer of
Speaker 2: difficulty and complication to the whole thing.
Speaker 4: So may I add something just real quick, please do so.
Speaker 4: You know, when I was studying my graduate degree, I
Speaker 4: took on a project that covered female workplace participation, okay,
Speaker 4: And basically what we found out is that the higher
Speaker 4: participation rate of a given country's female population, the better
Speaker 4: off their economy was. Right, the worst economies had less
Speaker 4: women in the workforce, Okay, And so I think that
Speaker 4: and those countries were the most orthodox religiously, whether it
Speaker 4: was Christian, whether it was Islam, or whether it was
Speaker 4: some other country right, whether or some other dogma. So
Speaker 4: countries that have their dogma allow or informing their laws
Speaker 4: and informing their treatment, informing their treatment of women actually
Speaker 4: end up hurting themselves. And I think we're seeing that now.
Speaker 1: Right, Helen. What's your your perspective on that?
Speaker 2: Jim So, Jimmy was just pointing out that, uh, countries
Speaker 2: that empower women basically are more effective and have higher,
Speaker 2: uh you know, higher results across the board and all
Speaker 2: all these different categories.
Speaker 1: What what as a woman, what is your take on that?
Speaker 3: That's obvious because we're not just Broodmeir's everybody. I know
Speaker 3: that's shocking. But the more diverse populosity that you have,
Speaker 3: whether it be women, people of color, you know, across
Speaker 3: the gender spectrum, across you know, ritual background, but whatever
Speaker 3: it is, education background, you're going to have a more
Speaker 3: diverse workforce. That means that they're going to be able
Speaker 3: to bring their education, their skills, their perspectives, all the
Speaker 3: trade into the economy. When you treat everybody as an equal,
Speaker 3: and that is why they're more successful. But if you're
Speaker 3: making one person just be you know, the breadwinner, and
Speaker 3: the other one you know, they're supposed to stay home
Speaker 3: and like pop out. You know babies, You're not going
Speaker 3: to have that diversity. You're cutting off your nose to
Speaker 3: spite your face. And I want to bring something back
Speaker 3: to what Jimmy was saying. Yes, this is affecting a
Speaker 3: woman of minority minority populations now, but guess what they're
Speaker 3: going to come after birth control, and that affects everybody,
Speaker 3: every woman that wants to, you know, have some kind
Speaker 3: of bodily autonomy. So right now, again, just because it's
Speaker 3: not happening to you right now, doesn't mean it's not
Speaker 3: going to fucking happen. So we have to be people
Speaker 3: have to be very very careful about just because it's
Speaker 3: not happening to you. But guess what, even if it
Speaker 3: doesn't happen to you, Like I'm done, like I'm not
Speaker 3: having any more children, but it affects other women in
Speaker 3: my life and also just women in general, and I
Speaker 3: don't and people that can and people that can have babies.
Speaker 3: So I'm just kind of over this sexism. I'm just done.
Speaker 3: I'm done with this. Like we have to take care
Speaker 3: of each other, because it also affects men, the people
Speaker 3: that get us pregnant, and affects our lives as well.
Speaker 3: So this goes, this goes all the way around people.
Speaker 3: So you got to start taking care of each other
Speaker 3: and fighting gets this crap.
Speaker 2: I agree wholeheartedly, and I think that was very well stated.
Speaker 2: One last thing this is I just have one last question,
Speaker 2: and I want to get an answer from each of you,
Speaker 2: and you can. You can make it as brief or
Speaker 2: as lengthy as you'd like. We've been talking about the
Speaker 2: morality of the situation. We've been talking about the business
Speaker 2: aspects of the situation. We've even touched on a little
Speaker 2: bit of the legal situation here or the legal aspect
Speaker 2: of the story. I'll just ask you point blank. We'll
Speaker 2: start with Helen and then we'll go to Jimmy. Should
Speaker 2: Maria Rojas have been arrested?
Speaker 3: Why?
Speaker 1: Or why not?
Speaker 3: Oh God, I'm up two mans because I'm of two minds. Yes,
Speaker 3: she's a midwife, but also not all midways are trained
Speaker 3: to do abortions. And also but also also at the
Speaker 3: same time, though the women's pregnancy, we only had a
Speaker 3: nine percent chance of of UH being successful so I like,
Speaker 3: I'm a kind of a double edged sword. I under
Speaker 3: the law, I don't. I don't agree with the law.
Speaker 3: I thing is gross. But even so, even if let's
Speaker 3: say she did have her medicalized, this was she allowed
Speaker 3: to perform abortions because midwives had different different medical requirements
Speaker 3: versus obstetricians. So so if she had done it under
Speaker 3: you know, if it was legal, I would I was
Speaker 3: still I would still have that caveat. But but the
Speaker 3: major problem, that is what the problem is, is that
Speaker 3: we shouldn't be having this conversation in the first place,
Speaker 3: and trying to look, you know, trying to have this
Speaker 3: top down perspective of it, like, we should not be
Speaker 3: having this conversation. That woman who had a nine percent
Speaker 3: chance of her pregnant being successful should have been able
Speaker 3: to go to an obstrician and talk with him or
Speaker 3: her and be like, I'm this fretsey is not gonna
Speaker 3: be fruitful. I don't want to go through all the
Speaker 3: pain and agony. And the doctor said, she said yep,
Speaker 3: and gave her the medical care that she needs needs
Speaker 3: and that's it. That should have been.
Speaker 1: Go ahead.
Speaker 4: I'm of two minds as well. She probably should have
Speaker 4: been arrested for this. What she was doing was illegal,
Speaker 4: but was she also the hero that some women needed?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: I don't know that if I had the ability, even
Speaker 4: if it were wrong, to save somebody's life, that I
Speaker 4: wouldn't do it, you know, So I unfortunately Helen, Helen's right,
Speaker 4: Not unfortunately Helen's right, but unfortunately we have we have
Speaker 4: this law in the first place that makes it a
Speaker 4: criminal act. It shouldn't be a criminal act at all.
Speaker 4: But she did break the law, and we cannot have
Speaker 4: rogue medical practitioners. We we don't know if she could
Speaker 4: have harmed somebody or made something worse. I don't know
Speaker 4: that I'm the right legal mind. Hopefully when a decision
Speaker 4: is made, it's made because they are They receive testimony
Speaker 4: and fact based expertise from experts in the medical field
Speaker 4: that help this case along. I certainly think that Rojas
Speaker 4: recognized that there were people in need, and that they
Speaker 4: were disproportionately being affected because maybe they were women, or
Speaker 4: maybe they were Latino, or maybe they were poor, some
Speaker 4: combination of them. But yeah, it's unfortunately a situation where
Speaker 4: she did the right thing, but she still needs to
Speaker 4: be held accountable.
Speaker 2: Right, right, Yeah, I think we can all agree that
Speaker 2: it's a it's really a systemic problem. It's you know,
Speaker 2: the law. It's the law that has the problem, not
Speaker 2: the execution of the law. And you know, but but
Speaker 2: I think that these kind of stories really highlight the
Speaker 2: need for some kind of thoughtful, compassionate re evaluation of
Speaker 2: our legal system. You know, we see this kind of
Speaker 2: thing happening, and yeah, I think you're right. I think
Speaker 2: I think, uh, you know, she probably knew what she
Speaker 2: was getting into and maybe doesn't even regret I mean,
Speaker 2: I know they didn't really she didn't really comment in
Speaker 2: the story for obvious reasons, you know, with ongoing uh
Speaker 2: you know, a prosecution happening here. But yeah, if I
Speaker 2: were in her shoes, I don't know if I would
Speaker 2: regret it at all, you know, and maybe even would
Speaker 2: have done it again if given an opportunity. But but
Speaker 2: we've had really Catholic on top of that.
Speaker 3: Right to talk about religion. She she actually did the
Speaker 3: way way of Jesus and did the right thing to
Speaker 3: help another human being, and I and has off to that.
Speaker 2: Actually, I think that's a perfect place to stop. I
Speaker 2: think we've had some excellent discussion on this and