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<v Speaker 3>You are now listening to True Murder The Most Shocking

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<v Speaker 3>Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 3>written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every

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<v Speaker 3>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

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<v Speaker 3>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,

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<v Speaker 3>journalist and author Dan Zupansky.

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<v Speaker 4>Good evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the

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<v Speaker 4>program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime

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<v Speaker 4>History and the authors that have written about them. Sarah

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<v Speaker 4>Ludeman was new to love the panelas Florida seventeen year

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<v Speaker 4>old was a late bloomer. When she fell for a boy,

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<v Speaker 4>she was blind to the world of sex, drugs, and

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<v Speaker 4>drama s whirling around her. Soon, Sarah had a bitter

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<v Speaker 4>enemy and eighteen year old waitress Rachel Wade. Both girls

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<v Speaker 4>were head over heels with a cocky two timer named

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<v Speaker 4>Joshua Camacho. On a warm spring night, their passions erupted

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<v Speaker 4>into violence. A knife flashed under the street lights. When

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<v Speaker 4>the fight was over, one girl was dead and the

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<v Speaker 4>other charged with murder. In an emotion packed courtroom, the

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<v Speaker 4>whole story took shape, a troubling tale of conflicting lives,

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<v Speaker 4>tangled sexual affairs, and the high price of having the

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<v Speaker 4>right feelings for the wrong guy. The book this feature

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<v Speaker 4>this evening is called A Knife in the Heart by

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<v Speaker 4>my special guest journalist and author and returned guest, Michael Benson.

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<v Speaker 4>Welcome to the program, and thank you to agreeing this interview.

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<v Speaker 4>Michael Benson.

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<v Speaker 2>Good, good evening, Dan thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 4>Good evening. Thank you. Now let's maybe set the stage

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<v Speaker 4>with this Panela's Park here, what type of community is

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<v Speaker 4>and tell us be because both of these young women

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<v Speaker 4>grew up in these grew up in this neighborhood. So

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<v Speaker 4>tell us about the Danella's, Florida neighborhood.

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<v Speaker 2>That was a really good well. Panella's Park, Florida is

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<v Speaker 2>a working class town. It's between Tampa Bay and the

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<v Speaker 2>Gulf of Mexico. It's landlocked, even though it's near the

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<v Speaker 2>Florida Shore, the east shore the west shore rather and

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<v Speaker 2>it's an industrial city. Most folks have blue collar jobs.

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<v Speaker 2>And although most people are getting by, it's not a

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<v Speaker 2>place of much upward mobility or ambition. I don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to paint the entire city, it's too broad a brush,

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<v Speaker 2>but it certainly seems like it's the case in this

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<v Speaker 2>particular pack of people, that there's a segment of the

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<v Speaker 2>population that gets stuck in place, casting kind of a

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<v Speaker 2>malaise of an onn we of a cloud of depression

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<v Speaker 2>that affected both the grown ups and if by chain reaction.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, they're teenage children, right, you know, And the

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<v Speaker 2>book takes place in kind of a mean Girl's Gone wild,

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<v Speaker 2>world's second drugs and unfortunately, in this case murder. It

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<v Speaker 2>was the early morning hours of April fifteenth, tax Day,

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and eight, just about exactly four years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was between an eighteen year old high school

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<v Speaker 2>senior and nineteen year old waitress. She had dropped out

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<v Speaker 2>of school and had her own apartment, and the feud

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<v Speaker 2>was between the young woman had been building up for

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<v Speaker 2>many months over a boy, and it was inflamed by

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<v Speaker 2>social networking. They taunted each other on my Space, and

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<v Speaker 2>with each new tweet or whatever you want to call it,

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<v Speaker 2>there were great escalations of fury and cattiness. The fight

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<v Speaker 2>took place in the middle of a quiet residential street.

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<v Speaker 2>Sarah Ludeman, who was the younger girl, is a student.

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<v Speaker 2>She brought along two friends and the nineteen year old

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<v Speaker 2>who was Rachel Wade, considerably smaller than Sarah. She didn't

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<v Speaker 2>bring any friends with her, but she did bring a

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<v Speaker 2>knife and the fight lasted no more than five seconds,

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<v Speaker 2>and when it was over, Sarah lay in the street,

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<v Speaker 2>mortally wounded by a stab wound to the heart. There

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<v Speaker 2>was no more.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, So what precipitated this though, because you talk about

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<v Speaker 4>she was she came with the kitchen knife. So explain

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<v Speaker 4>how it was that Sarah and her friends came to

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<v Speaker 4>be at Rachel Wade's apartment or home. Tell us tell

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<v Speaker 4>us the scenario.

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<v Speaker 2>And Yeah. During the during the evening that this occurred,

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<v Speaker 2>hostilities had been growing. Rachel wanted to spend the night

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<v Speaker 2>with the boyfriend, Joshua, but Joshua had Sarah over and

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<v Speaker 2>Joshua was staying at the time with his sister and uh.

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<v Speaker 2>Insults went back and forth, and they had driven past

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<v Speaker 2>each other's houses. They were shouting things.

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<v Speaker 4>And.

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<v Speaker 2>Rachel had reason to believe that she was going to

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<v Speaker 2>be jumped by more than one girl and armed herself

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<v Speaker 2>and to protect herself with a kitchen knife, with with

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<v Speaker 2>with a kitchen knife. She grabbed the kitchen knife and

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<v Speaker 2>put in her purse on her way out the door,

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<v Speaker 2>and then she went over to a friend's house where

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<v Speaker 2>she thought that she would be safe. So the go ahead.

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<v Speaker 4>Now, why wasn't she safe at this location? How did

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<v Speaker 4>how did Sarah?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know what happened. She she goes over to

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<v Speaker 2>her friend Javier's house. And Javier, the boy was an

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<v Speaker 2>ex boyfriend and then a polsonic friend at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>And uh, Javier has a friend over named Dustin Grinds

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<v Speaker 2>and they're hanging out in the front yard and Javier's

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<v Speaker 2>mom is asleep in the house. So instead of taking

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<v Speaker 2>Rachel fear who fears that she's going to be jumped

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<v Speaker 2>into the house where she wouldn't be seen, fell hanging

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<v Speaker 2>out in front of the house. And when a friend

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<v Speaker 2>of Sarah's drives by and spots them, that word travels

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<v Speaker 2>fast and everything, you know, there's you know, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>rumble in the middle of the street.

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<v Speaker 4>What was no Now you're saying it's someone that Rachel

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<v Speaker 4>thought she might be jumped by more than one person.

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<v Speaker 4>And they had this long or at least in terms

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<v Speaker 4>of teenage life, a long standing feud that was getting

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<v Speaker 4>escalated and gone on for months.

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<v Speaker 2>There had been a break, there was it was, it

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<v Speaker 2>was really bad for a while, and then there was

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<v Speaker 2>a break and then it it started up again.

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<v Speaker 4>Now, how soon was the actual threat where she actually

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<v Speaker 4>apparently said I will kill you.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, the one thing that we'll get into

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<v Speaker 2>is that Rachel is a victim of her own big mouth.

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<v Speaker 2>She was a She's a diminutive, blonde, kind of sweet looking,

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<v Speaker 2>but when she felt threatened, she really could let loose

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<v Speaker 2>with you know. She was she was a barker, not

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<v Speaker 2>a bier, was her reputation. She was. She she could

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<v Speaker 2>just go into a tirade of insults and you vulgarity,

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<v Speaker 2>and she used that as a way to keep people away,

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<v Speaker 2>right and and to and to hurt back when she

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<v Speaker 2>felt that she had been hurt. But I think the

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<v Speaker 2>fascinating thing about this case, and I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>you agree, but it's that there are eyewitnesses, and the

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<v Speaker 2>eyewitnesses coming to jams. There's Sarah's witnesses, and there are

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<v Speaker 2>Rachel's witnesses, and they don't agree on much. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>Rachel's friends all spoke of a small woman defending herself

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<v Speaker 2>against three larger women who had jumped her, and Sarah's

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<v Speaker 2>friends folk, of Rachel charging at Sarah and immediately plunging

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<v Speaker 2>the kitchen knife into Sarah's chest. Yeah, so yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>just should also say that by the time this happens,

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<v Speaker 2>the News Park Police Department is really sick of these

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<v Speaker 2>kids there, They've been a problem for years. There's drug dealers,

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<v Speaker 2>there's uh and every every move, every social move, seems

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<v Speaker 2>to be dramatized into something straight out of West Side Story.

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<v Speaker 2>There's car chases, all kinds of reckless driving. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>just just a few days before the murder, several local

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<v Speaker 2>high school kids have been killed in a car crash. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>and now you've got you know, Sarah screaming to Havre

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<v Speaker 2>the boy's house in her in her parents minivan, almost

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<v Speaker 2>going up on two wheels to make the turn, and

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<v Speaker 2>screeching to a halt three feet away from the nose

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<v Speaker 2>of Rachel's car.

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<v Speaker 4>So it's.

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<v Speaker 2>But the other thing is that Joshua Camacho, who's the

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<v Speaker 2>boy the warring party's share. He is an instigator, and

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<v Speaker 2>he has told them both, you know, if you love

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<v Speaker 2>me enough, you will fight for me. He's been there.

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<v Speaker 4>And describe this guy too, because he talked about diminutives,

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<v Speaker 4>like tell me what, because we got photos of this

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<v Speaker 4>guy posing. You know, he's got tattoos, he's a gangst

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<v Speaker 4>that kind of guy. So, but describe who he really

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<v Speaker 4>what he is like a statute, really right.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, if if you had a guess what he

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<v Speaker 2>looked like, based just on the behavior of his women,

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<v Speaker 2>you would guess that he was a tall, dark and

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<v Speaker 2>handsome The truth was really different and in a way

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<v Speaker 2>more interesting. He was an undersized pretty boy who didn't

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<v Speaker 2>work for a living but instead leeched from his girlfriend.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a guy who made playing women into a science.

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<v Speaker 2>He had a baby with one teen girlfriend. He lived

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<v Speaker 2>for a time in Rachel Wade's apartment for free, and

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<v Speaker 2>he took Sarah Ludman's virginity at Rachel's trial. He described

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<v Speaker 2>this relationship with all of these women as friends with benefits.

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<v Speaker 2>The no emotion at all, His controlling nature, his need

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<v Speaker 2>to play puppet master came through loud and clear. I

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<v Speaker 2>thought when you learned that he had instructed Sarah not

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<v Speaker 2>to wear shorts in public, no matter how high it

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<v Speaker 2>was outside, because he decided that he wanted to be

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<v Speaker 2>the only one who got to see her legs. And

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<v Speaker 2>Sarah didn't even question it. She wore long pants.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Yeah, Well they're young though, and and I mean

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of this stuff, I mean, controlling people is

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<v Speaker 4>nothing new. I mean there's a lot of a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of jealous controlling people both sexes ques true. But it's

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<v Speaker 4>interesting what I would what you did talk about, and

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<v Speaker 4>what I was going to ask, because we want to

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<v Speaker 4>make sure that this wasn't out of character for these

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<v Speaker 4>young girls. They lived in this sort of world, and

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<v Speaker 4>you did describe this over exaggerated sort of world they

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<v Speaker 4>thought they were living in, you.

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<v Speaker 2>Know, right, And it was it was a promiscu permission

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<v Speaker 2>us crowd, a warning to readers with you gentle sensibilities.

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<v Speaker 2>That quite a bit of sex talk going on. As

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<v Speaker 2>one cop put it immediately following the murder, it wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>over a love triangle as much as it was around

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<v Speaker 2>a love hexagon. Rachel Wade discovered sex at a very

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<v Speaker 2>tender age. She was a classic example of too much

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<v Speaker 2>too soon. And Sarah Luna, on the other hand, was

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<v Speaker 2>an overweight girl, large teased by friends and a late

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<v Speaker 2>bloomer with boys, and Joshua Camacho was her one and only.

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<v Speaker 2>In terms of scheduling, Josh's girlfriends were perfectly complementary to

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<v Speaker 2>each other. You know, Sarah was a high school girl

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<v Speaker 2>with a curfew and had to be home early, and

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<v Speaker 2>Rachel was a restaurant waitress who wasn't available until late,

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00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:53.679
<v Speaker 2>so he could see both every night, and they never

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00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:57.000
<v Speaker 2>ran into each other until if this night, Rachel has

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<v Speaker 2>the night off and I'll help breaks us. So Camacho

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<v Speaker 2>is the consonant player.

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<v Speaker 4>And.

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<v Speaker 2>You know he uh, he gives, no, really gives, not

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<v Speaker 2>that he convinces each girl that they are his one

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00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:17.639
<v Speaker 2>and only, although anybody from the outside looking in can

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<v Speaker 2>tell immediately what sort of person he is, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>not just scheduling, but I think the two girls were

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<v Speaker 2>complementary as well in terms of their uh personalities, sexual

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<v Speaker 2>and otherwise. You know, Rachel's shoot applebeasts, waitress with a

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<v Speaker 2>wild lifestyle. She's a sexual experimenter, and she's unfortunately just

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<v Speaker 2>as intense out of the sack as she is in.

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<v Speaker 2>And Sarah she's she switched schools so she could be

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<v Speaker 2>closer to Joshua Camacho. She adores him completely, you know that.

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<v Speaker 4>Why excuse me, why is it that Rachel is living

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<v Speaker 4>with a friend, or why is she not living with

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<v Speaker 4>her parents?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's you know, that's Rachel's only fifteen. When troubles start,

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00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:14.000
<v Speaker 2>she lives at home with her with her parents, but

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00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:17.279
<v Speaker 2>she gets busted for skipping school in order to have

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<v Speaker 2>sex with her older, technically adult boyfriend, and Rachel's parents

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00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:27.679
<v Speaker 2>had the boy arrested and charged with statutory rape. That

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00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.320
<v Speaker 2>incident for Rachel begins a pattern of running away from home.

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<v Speaker 2>She disappears for a couple of days, and she returns

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<v Speaker 2>home with it, you know, sometimes with a detailed explanation,

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00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:42.440
<v Speaker 2>sometimes with a vague explanation. Each time, Rachel's parents called

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00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:45.039
<v Speaker 2>the police and follow the report, and the police, in

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<v Speaker 2>quite a few cases, they just went to the house

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00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:50.679
<v Speaker 2>of whoever her boyfriend was, found her and brought her home. Now,

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00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:53.600
<v Speaker 2>sometimes Rachel ran away simply because she had a better

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<v Speaker 2>offer than to sleep at home with her parents, whom

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00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.679
<v Speaker 2>other times she ran off because of violent argument she had,

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00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:02.879
<v Speaker 2>most with their mother. Once Rachel threw a knife in

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<v Speaker 2>her mother before running out the door, asked why the

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<v Speaker 2>Waves continued calling the police even though they knew where

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<v Speaker 2>Rachel probably was Bury Wade. The dad said that he'd

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00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:16.840
<v Speaker 2>been advised by the police to keep a paper trail

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00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:21.519
<v Speaker 2>of everything because all that documentation, all that documentation would

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00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:24.200
<v Speaker 2>come in handy when it came time to take further

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00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:29.080
<v Speaker 2>action regarding Rachel's behavior. Now, I should mention that a

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00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:33.960
<v Speaker 2>large contributor to this entire tragedy as drugs. Yes, they're

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<v Speaker 2>all smoking pot and there's a frightening number of the

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<v Speaker 2>city's young people who are addicted to an opiate pain killer.

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00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:44.879
<v Speaker 2>They call them roxies. The brand name I guess was

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00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.080
<v Speaker 2>roxy Codon. There are blue pills and some kids called

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00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:52.720
<v Speaker 2>them blues. There's been a major most likely Yeah, yeah,

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00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:55.840
<v Speaker 2>I think it's very similar, just maybe a different manufacturer.

267
00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:59.960
<v Speaker 2>But there's been a major theft at the pharmaceutical warehouse

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00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:02.440
<v Speaker 2>and one hundreds of thousand of these pills were stolen,

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00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:08.240
<v Speaker 2>and it causes a tragic wave of serious drug addictions

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<v Speaker 2>throughout Florida. Kids are taking the pills unaware that they're

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<v Speaker 2>becoming addicted to the same active substance that's in herod. Sure,

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00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:19.600
<v Speaker 2>so there's a tendency anyway for young people to feel immortal.

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00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:23.159
<v Speaker 2>They don't feel anxiety about danger the same way older

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00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:26.919
<v Speaker 2>adults do. They're careless, they're reckless, and the natural tendency

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00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:31.679
<v Speaker 2>was exacerbated by the roxies, which further removed in additions

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00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:36.960
<v Speaker 2>and created a pain free illusion of euphoria. Too. Many

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00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:40.639
<v Speaker 2>of Penel's Park's teenage girls were skipping school, hanging out

278
00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:43.840
<v Speaker 2>with older boyfriends who had apartments of their own. They're

279
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:49.519
<v Speaker 2>taking drugs, having sex, and making babies. But our insight

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00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:52.600
<v Speaker 2>into Rachel during the Lucky landslide.

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00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:56.240
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<v Speaker 2>Those years is a beautiful young woman named Lisa la France,

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00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:31.640
<v Speaker 2>and she is also interesting from my point of view

295
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:34.000
<v Speaker 2>because she was the only witness I had who can

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00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:37.119
<v Speaker 2>honestly claim to be friends with both Sarah and Rachel.

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00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:37.920
<v Speaker 4>Right.

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00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:44.160
<v Speaker 2>Alisa and Rachel had boyfriends who were roommates when they

299
00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:47.400
<v Speaker 2>were teenagers, and they spent a lot of time together

300
00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:51.640
<v Speaker 2>having sex and taught taking drugs in close proximity. And

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00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:55.079
<v Speaker 2>while our best info is that Rachel, for all of

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00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:59.200
<v Speaker 2>romantic behavior, was no longer doing drugs, Lisa developed a

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00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:02.519
<v Speaker 2>severe paink addiction. You know, Roxy's took over my life,

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00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.680
<v Speaker 2>is what she told me. And that long before the murder,

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00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:10.400
<v Speaker 2>Lisa was visiting Rachel at Rachel's apartment and they had

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00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:15.880
<v Speaker 2>a fight. There was the way's final way of taking

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00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:18.799
<v Speaker 2>care of the runaway problem, as they allowed Rachel to

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00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:23.039
<v Speaker 2>quit school and get her own apartment, and that it

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00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.039
<v Speaker 2>was almost working, you know, she had a job, she'd

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00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:31.279
<v Speaker 2>gotten her ged. But Lisa and Rachel are together in

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00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:34.599
<v Speaker 2>Rachel's apartment not long before the murder, and Lisa's slurring

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00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:37.839
<v Speaker 2>her words and acting out of it, and Rachel gave

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00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:40.960
<v Speaker 2>her an ultimatum, you know, quit the pills or they

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00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:44.480
<v Speaker 2>couldn't be friends anymore, and Lisa chose the pills. She

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00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:46.359
<v Speaker 2>said she was high all the time, She was high

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00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:49.519
<v Speaker 2>the night that Sarah died. And I'm personally happy to

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00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:53.039
<v Speaker 2>report that Lisa's since gotten off drugs and she seems

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00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:56.440
<v Speaker 2>cheerful enough, gainfully employed and taking it one day at

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<v Speaker 2>a time. Right, So let's talk about the voicemails.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, that's evidence, as it turns.

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00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:13.519
<v Speaker 2>Out, business months before the murder, during the first few

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00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:19.359
<v Speaker 2>between Sarah and Rachel over Joshua, Rachel left a series

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00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:24.440
<v Speaker 2>of voicemails on Sarah's phone, and as it turns out,

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00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:29.440
<v Speaker 2>these tapes were one of the most psychologically effective pieces

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00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:35.079
<v Speaker 2>of evidence for the prosecution. They're threatening, they're obscene, and

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00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:37.759
<v Speaker 2>even though they occurred months before the murder, so that

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00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:43.079
<v Speaker 2>in terms legal terms the relevance was diminished, their emotional

328
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:46.319
<v Speaker 2>power remained very strong. I mean, they were so spary

329
00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:49.400
<v Speaker 2>that Sarah called the cops who recommended she saved the

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00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:52.000
<v Speaker 2>recording that she did, and that's how they ended up

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00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:56.079
<v Speaker 2>being evidence against Rachel at the trial. So Rachel, whose

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00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:00.400
<v Speaker 2>voices on those tapes is just monstrous. She delivered a

333
00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:05.680
<v Speaker 2>profanity strewn, manic monologue of insults and threats. She sounded

334
00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:08.200
<v Speaker 2>pretty flashly, like the type of person who would stab

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00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:11.240
<v Speaker 2>someone in the chest in cold blood. Every time I

336
00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:14.319
<v Speaker 2>listen to those voicemails, I get the distinct impression that

337
00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:18.720
<v Speaker 2>there's something wrong with Rachel, something organic, some synapse in

338
00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:21.799
<v Speaker 2>her brain that isn't firing correctly. She sounds for all

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00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:24.839
<v Speaker 2>the world as if she's written out a speech ahead

340
00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:27.200
<v Speaker 2>of time and then is reading it as fast as

341
00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:27.640
<v Speaker 2>she could.

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00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:28.920
<v Speaker 4>Right.

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00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:33.400
<v Speaker 2>So, I mean later on, I think it becomes important

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00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:37.359
<v Speaker 2>because her defense attorney has no choice but to put

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00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:41.359
<v Speaker 2>her on the stand because he can't allow those tapes

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00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:43.000
<v Speaker 2>to be her testimony.

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00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:46.480
<v Speaker 4>Well, plus she's bleeding self defense, so she has to

348
00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:47.480
<v Speaker 4>take the stand.

349
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:58.559
<v Speaker 2>That too. Yeah, So let's go through the witnesses. The eyewitnesses.

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<v Speaker 2>There are two girls in the minivan with Sarah. Sarah's

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<v Speaker 2>driving her father's minivan. Sitting in the front seat with her.

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<v Speaker 2>First and foremost is Janet Kamacha. She's Joshua's sister and

353
00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:18.799
<v Speaker 2>she is the original tough girl. You know. She's both

354
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:21.960
<v Speaker 2>friends with Sarah and she hates Rachel's guts because she

355
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:26.000
<v Speaker 2>thought Rachel was a bad influence on her own After

356
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.200
<v Speaker 2>Rachel Wade had stabbed Sarah. It was Janet Camacha who

357
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:34.599
<v Speaker 2>grabbed Rachel and gave her a good beating. First, at first,

358
00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:37.200
<v Speaker 2>Janet takes off one of her sandals and starts smacking

359
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:39.319
<v Speaker 2>try to get the knife out of her hands, smacks

360
00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:42.720
<v Speaker 2>Rachel over the head with it. And later Janet had

361
00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:44.799
<v Speaker 2>Rachel by the hair and she's dragging her around the

362
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.839
<v Speaker 2>Javier the Boy's front lawn, and Rachel makes no attempt

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<v Speaker 2>to use her knife on Janet, you know. Somehow during

364
00:21:54.119 --> 00:21:57.000
<v Speaker 2>this altercation, Rachel manages to free herself for long enough

365
00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:59.160
<v Speaker 2>to run away and throw the knife away as far

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<v Speaker 2>as she can, and the flagger found on a neighbor's

367
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:05.000
<v Speaker 2>roof right, and the prosecution claimed that Rachel was trying

368
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:07.839
<v Speaker 2>to hide the weapon, while the defense made the also

369
00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:10.920
<v Speaker 2>reasonable claim that she got rid of the knife and

370
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:13.440
<v Speaker 2>self defense that she was afraid Janet was going to

371
00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:15.759
<v Speaker 2>take it away from her and use it on her.

372
00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:21.119
<v Speaker 2>And in court, Janet was very, very pregnant and nonetheless

373
00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:23.759
<v Speaker 2>had a tough girl strut as she entered and exited

374
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:26.880
<v Speaker 2>the courtroom, and while on the stand, she kept staring

375
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:32.759
<v Speaker 2>at Rachel high beings on, almost licking her chops, obviously

376
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:36.079
<v Speaker 2>thinking about what she would do if she could just

377
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:38.519
<v Speaker 2>have five minutes alone in her room with Rachel Wade

378
00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:42.000
<v Speaker 2>sitting in the double seat of the Vand.

379
00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:47.880
<v Speaker 4>I wanted to ask one thing, though, wasn't she stabbed twice? Like?

380
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.599
<v Speaker 4>Where exactly was she stabbed? And then? And was she

381
00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:54.720
<v Speaker 4>stabbed twice in this very specific spot in the chest?

382
00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:55.480
<v Speaker 4>You say the chest?

383
00:22:55.559 --> 00:23:02.680
<v Speaker 2>But she was like the first wound, uh is up

384
00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:05.240
<v Speaker 2>in the shoulder and it's just a flesh woe. It

385
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:08.079
<v Speaker 2>would have been it would have been a matter of stitches, right.

386
00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:11.759
<v Speaker 2>The second the second stamp, which is a fraction of

387
00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:16.279
<v Speaker 2>a second later, goes through the skin, through the muscle

388
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:21.640
<v Speaker 2>between the ribs, through the plural sack, and into the

389
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:22.440
<v Speaker 2>heart itself.

390
00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:23.640
<v Speaker 4>Right, And.

391
00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:28.640
<v Speaker 2>So she had mustered up a considered amount of strength

392
00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:31.079
<v Speaker 2>in her anger in order.

393
00:23:31.160 --> 00:23:34.160
<v Speaker 4>Did she did Sarah die right away? How long? Was it?

394
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:39.240
<v Speaker 2>Pretty quickly she managed. She manages to get her cell

395
00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:44.680
<v Speaker 2>phone out, and she calls Joshua and she says it hurts,

396
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:49.400
<v Speaker 2>and then collapses on the street right next to her van.

397
00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:54.799
<v Speaker 2>The driver door is still open. Yeah. Uh, And you

398
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:58.440
<v Speaker 2>know what what happens at that point, of course, dependent

399
00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:03.640
<v Speaker 2>which eye witness what sting to. So, yeah, as I said,

400
00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:07.440
<v Speaker 2>there were the wors. Sarah had two friends with her,

401
00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:10.359
<v Speaker 2>and sitting in the back seat is Julisa Smith, who

402
00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:15.359
<v Speaker 2>is another a larger girl. She's gonbe five eight something

403
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:19.759
<v Speaker 2>like that, and she's related to the father of Janet

404
00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:23.599
<v Speaker 2>Camacho's babies, so they're related by marriage, and Jalsa sometimes

405
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:29.720
<v Speaker 2>comes over to babysit, and naturally Julica's memories support the prosecution,

406
00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:32.200
<v Speaker 2>but she has elements of her story that aren't in

407
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:36.000
<v Speaker 2>anyone else's version. She says she missed key action because

408
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.920
<v Speaker 2>she dropped her phone and the back popped off, and

409
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:40.880
<v Speaker 2>she was picking that up and putting the phone back

410
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.680
<v Speaker 2>together as things were going on, and she remembered holding

411
00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:46.839
<v Speaker 2>Janet back physically so she couldn't attack Rachel when everyone

412
00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:50.119
<v Speaker 2>else remember Janet beating the Tara out of Rachel, with

413
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:53.079
<v Speaker 2>Julisa doing nothing to stop her. But still, it was

414
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:56.559
<v Speaker 2>Julisa first realized that Sarah had been stabbed and had

415
00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:00.599
<v Speaker 2>collapsed to the pavement. It was Julia's screams that Sarah

416
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:03.400
<v Speaker 2>Sarah's been stabbed then that alerted the others that there

417
00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:07.119
<v Speaker 2>was a medical emergency. Uh Julisa, when she did get

418
00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:09.759
<v Speaker 2>her phone back in one piece, also successfully called nine

419
00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:14.240
<v Speaker 2>one one and reported the stabbing. Now over on Rachel's

420
00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:18.920
<v Speaker 2>side of the eyewitnesses, you have Javier, la boy and

421
00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:27.079
<v Speaker 2>he is gonna be her best friend. He's decided that

422
00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:29.920
<v Speaker 2>he has seen it. He's the only the only eyewitness

423
00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:33.599
<v Speaker 2>was sees things exactly the way that Rachel herself sees them.

424
00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:39.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah he yeah, he uh. He sees three girls piling

425
00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:43.920
<v Speaker 2>out of the van at once, whereas Sarah's friends say

426
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:47.599
<v Speaker 2>they don't get out of the van until after the stabbing. Yeah,

427
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:52.240
<v Speaker 2>that's pretty one on one fight, but yeah, Dan, Javier

428
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:53.839
<v Speaker 2>says that all three girls get out of the van

429
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:56.319
<v Speaker 2>at once and charge it at Rachel, who then has

430
00:25:56.359 --> 00:26:00.720
<v Speaker 2>to defend herself. Now, during the first few months that

431
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:05.960
<v Speaker 2>Rachel's in jail, it's Javier who becomes her boyfriend, and

432
00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:08.720
<v Speaker 2>he's we have tapes with him on the phone reassuring

433
00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:12.440
<v Speaker 2>her that that this is all temporary and everything's gonna

434
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:15.519
<v Speaker 2>be okay once the jury realizes the truth. You hear

435
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:18.799
<v Speaker 2>them daydreaming about their life together. They're gonna get married,

436
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:20.880
<v Speaker 2>have children. They talk about what they're gonna name their

437
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:27.759
<v Speaker 2>children after Rachel as he quitted and Vire's Javier's friend.

438
00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Dustin grimes, he's he's just happens to be over visiting Javier.

439
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:35.160
<v Speaker 2>He doesn't he doesn't have he doesn't have a dog

440
00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:39.160
<v Speaker 2>in this fight. But he so probably I would think

441
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:44.680
<v Speaker 2>that he has the least biased viewpoint. And but yeah,

442
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:47.759
<v Speaker 2>and he's the closest as close as we get to.

443
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.759
<v Speaker 4>An impartial witness and potentially potentially.

444
00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:55.319
<v Speaker 2>Potentially Yeah, and he does say things that please both signs.

445
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:01.200
<v Speaker 2>He he says that Rachel moved forward away from her

446
00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:04.279
<v Speaker 2>own car and towards Sarah's with a knife in her hand,

447
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.759
<v Speaker 2>not a girl on the defensive. But he also says,

448
00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:10.920
<v Speaker 2>and this was, you know, absolutely thrilled the defense attorney.

449
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:14.200
<v Speaker 2>He says that all three girls in the van get

450
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:16.799
<v Speaker 2>out at the same time and come charging towards Rachel

451
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:20.039
<v Speaker 2>and the other. The other interesting thing about Dustin is

452
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:23.440
<v Speaker 2>that he enlisted in the military actually murder, and he

453
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:26.279
<v Speaker 2>knew that he was going to be overseas during the trial.

454
00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:30.359
<v Speaker 2>So his testimony was recorded earlier in the same courtroom

455
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:33.519
<v Speaker 2>with all the same parties president except for the jury,

456
00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:37.039
<v Speaker 2>and then the TV tape was played for the jury

457
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.160
<v Speaker 2>and they had a synchronized things that the jury would

458
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:42.839
<v Speaker 2>be seeing pieces of evidence as they were introduced on

459
00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:46.799
<v Speaker 2>the tape, and it was his courtroom procedure. It was

460
00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:47.680
<v Speaker 2>it was a little odd.

461
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:52.039
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, he knew that there was no cross denomination. So

462
00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:56.079
<v Speaker 4>it's a whole lot less strenuous than obviously going to court.

463
00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:03.799
<v Speaker 2>They're right exactly, And it's just interesting that you tend

464
00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:09.279
<v Speaker 2>to think of a of a trial that is being

465
00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:14.160
<v Speaker 2>at libbed, that it's being played out sort of off

466
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:16.839
<v Speaker 2>the cuff, and when you go back to a tape

467
00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:19.759
<v Speaker 2>that was made months before and you play it and

468
00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:23.599
<v Speaker 2>it fits in perfectly, you realize that this trials are

469
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:24.759
<v Speaker 2>pretty well scripted.

470
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:29.839
<v Speaker 4>What I wanted to ask you is that because you've written,

471
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:34.279
<v Speaker 4>you know what, over forty books, and true crime is

472
00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:36.440
<v Speaker 4>not the only thing you've written about, but definitely you've

473
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:40.640
<v Speaker 4>written you understand the legal process in your mind. When

474
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:43.000
<v Speaker 4>you were looking at this case before the trial, and

475
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:46.000
<v Speaker 4>when I'm looking at it too, did you have your

476
00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:51.640
<v Speaker 4>did you have an idea of what technically is self defense?

477
00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:53.960
<v Speaker 4>She came out of the home with a knife in

478
00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:58.200
<v Speaker 4>the purse was really not The definition of self defense

479
00:28:58.920 --> 00:29:00.599
<v Speaker 4>doesn't mean a jury won't take it that way. But

480
00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:02.680
<v Speaker 4>that's a little bit of a stretch of self defense,

481
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:03.039
<v Speaker 4>isn't it.

482
00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:05.519
<v Speaker 2>Well. I think I think that there's there's a standard rule.

483
00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:09.839
<v Speaker 2>You don't bring a knife to a fist fight. Yeah. Now,

484
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:12.640
<v Speaker 2>the other thing that complicates matters is that Florida has

485
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:16.200
<v Speaker 2>a new stand your ground rule, right or you know

486
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:20.200
<v Speaker 2>many states. Yeah, and they say that if you can,

487
00:29:20.599 --> 00:29:26.640
<v Speaker 2>you should run. But Florida, it's it's too sissy, and

488
00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:28.759
<v Speaker 2>they're having they're having a lot of they're having a

489
00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:36.119
<v Speaker 2>lot of acquittals uh with self defense uh defenses because

490
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:39.200
<v Speaker 2>it says you are allowed to stand your ground even

491
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:44.240
<v Speaker 2>though you are being attacked, which you know is the

492
00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:45.880
<v Speaker 2>case here, and you.

493
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:48.000
<v Speaker 4>Can want and you're supposed to be able to use

494
00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:51.359
<v Speaker 4>force plus one. And if you have three people, you

495
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:53.960
<v Speaker 4>you know, bringing your fist to a fist fight and

496
00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:55.799
<v Speaker 4>still doesn't work out with three people.

497
00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:59.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's assuming that three people are actually attacking her,

498
00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:05.319
<v Speaker 2>that's right, you know. I think there's there's strong evidence

499
00:30:05.480 --> 00:30:10.240
<v Speaker 2>that the girls attacked that Julisa never hurt anybody, and

500
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:14.519
<v Speaker 2>the Janet and Sarah attacked Rachel one at a time.

501
00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.240
<v Speaker 2>I think it's it was an interesting case in that

502
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:21.759
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know what the verdict was going to be, right, Yeah,

503
00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:25.119
<v Speaker 2>I mean unless there is a you know, unless there's

504
00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:28.880
<v Speaker 2>a strong legal ending, chances are it doesn't become a

505
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:31.920
<v Speaker 2>book because you don't want to put the word allegedly

506
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:35.799
<v Speaker 2>in five thousand times you're writing a book. Yes, But

507
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:41.000
<v Speaker 2>the question afterwards was, you know, was she charged properly

508
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:44.279
<v Speaker 2>the charge? She was arrested that night and charged with

509
00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:49.000
<v Speaker 2>second degree murder? Right, and what's that correct? Was?

510
00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:49.279
<v Speaker 4>You know?

511
00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:52.599
<v Speaker 2>Second degree murder means that Rachel deliberately killed Sarah with

512
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:56.039
<v Speaker 2>that knife, but she decided that she decided to do

513
00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:59.319
<v Speaker 2>it on the spur of the moment. Uh. And some

514
00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:06.240
<v Speaker 2>something thought that Rachel was undercharged because really, premeditation only

515
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:09.440
<v Speaker 2>takes a matter of seconds, and wasn't the fact that

516
00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:11.839
<v Speaker 2>she had the knife with her in the first place

517
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:16.880
<v Speaker 2>evidence of premeditation. And then there were others who thought

518
00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:19.799
<v Speaker 2>that Rachel was overcharged, that she should have been charged

519
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:24.000
<v Speaker 2>with manslaughter, that she had a reckless disregard for Sarah's safety.

520
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:26.640
<v Speaker 2>It was true, but she had not intentionally killed her,

521
00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:34.960
<v Speaker 2>That she didn't have the skills to purposely do the

522
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:37.200
<v Speaker 2>damage that she did. She was just flailing.

523
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:41.880
<v Speaker 4>Was there a question of that she had stabbed her once,

524
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:44.039
<v Speaker 4>like you say, a surface wound, but then went in

525
00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:47.720
<v Speaker 4>for the not for the kill, but the lethal stab

526
00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:50.119
<v Speaker 4>wound that went right to the heart quickly, you know,

527
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:53.200
<v Speaker 4>I mean this was lethal. Was there a question of that?

528
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:57.319
<v Speaker 4>And she was just defending herself. Wouldn't have the stab itself.

529
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:01.559
<v Speaker 4>Most people, whether they're stabbed fatally or not, are not

530
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:05.000
<v Speaker 4>going to keep attacking. So was there any question about

531
00:32:05.079 --> 00:32:06.400
<v Speaker 4>that incident?

532
00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:10.839
<v Speaker 2>So you know, there was not an eyewitness who could

533
00:32:11.319 --> 00:32:15.440
<v Speaker 2>identify when the stabbing took place. Two girls. It all

534
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:18.079
<v Speaker 2>happens so fast. The girls come together in the middle

535
00:32:18.079 --> 00:32:20.519
<v Speaker 2>of the street and there is just, you know, a

536
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:26.799
<v Speaker 2>mad flurry of motion, hair and arms and screaming, and

537
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:32.440
<v Speaker 2>then they separate and at first everything's, you know, everything

538
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:37.599
<v Speaker 2>just the okay. Sarah walks back to her van, standing up,

539
00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:41.400
<v Speaker 2>and Rachel backs off and moves away, and it looks

540
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:45.799
<v Speaker 2>like it's over, and it's not until Sarah goes down.

541
00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:53.440
<v Speaker 2>She's believes most of her bleeding is internal. Chaos erupts again,

542
00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:56.440
<v Speaker 2>but there's you know, we don't have anybody who says, yes,

543
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:58.759
<v Speaker 2>she stabbed her once and that wasn't good enough. She

544
00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:03.640
<v Speaker 2>stabbed her again. The two stamps were were yeah, part

545
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:06.960
<v Speaker 2>part of a flurry of motion that nobody on either

546
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:10.839
<v Speaker 2>side could distinguish. Mm hmm yeah, so.

547
00:33:11.079 --> 00:33:15.839
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548
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:16.400
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549
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550
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551
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552
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553
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556
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557
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:41.880
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558
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:46.680
<v Speaker 2>But I mean her Her defense believed that her actions

559
00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:49.440
<v Speaker 2>were protected under floor's right to stand your ground law

560
00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:52.759
<v Speaker 2>and that she'd been jumped three on one and that

561
00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:57.039
<v Speaker 2>rendered the use of the knife justifiable. I had, you know,

562
00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:59.000
<v Speaker 2>I had no idea what the jury was going to

563
00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:02.759
<v Speaker 2>do with this case. You look at Rachel at the

564
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:06.359
<v Speaker 2>opening of your program, the most notorious and shocking killers.

565
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:09.679
<v Speaker 2>The shocking thing about Rachel Wade being a killer is

566
00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:15.960
<v Speaker 2>that she looks completely harmless, you know, moments after the murders,

567
00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:19.360
<v Speaker 2>over sitting on a bench in front of Javier's house,

568
00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:22.519
<v Speaker 2>and she has a cop, she can bum a cigarette.

569
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:24.480
<v Speaker 2>She looks like a sullen cheerleader.

570
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:29.840
<v Speaker 4>What was her actions like after her arrest in terms

571
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:32.239
<v Speaker 4>of now you get a lot of cases in this one,

572
00:34:33.159 --> 00:34:36.000
<v Speaker 4>obviously they look very closely at the person's behavior after

573
00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:39.519
<v Speaker 4>and if there's any visits, phone calls. So what was

574
00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:43.280
<v Speaker 4>the behavior right after that? How was she was still cocky?

575
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:44.239
<v Speaker 4>I mean, what was she like?

576
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:49.599
<v Speaker 2>No, no, she was she was quiet. She seemed a

577
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:54.880
<v Speaker 2>little dazed. She sat there and watched as the ambulance

578
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:59.880
<v Speaker 2>pulled up, and she lied. I mean, this was the thing.

579
00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:02.239
<v Speaker 2>She lies. She said she hadn't know, she didn't know

580
00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:09.840
<v Speaker 2>Sarah got stabbed. No, no clue. Yeah, she remembered everything

581
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:15.159
<v Speaker 2>except stabbing Sarah, which is probably not the way to

582
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:23.119
<v Speaker 2>go because it seemed phony. Bologni. Sure, we talked for

583
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:26.320
<v Speaker 2>a second about about the families, because the two families

584
00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:31.119
<v Speaker 2>in this case are they're really heartbreaking. Yeah, I mean,

585
00:35:31.159 --> 00:35:33.920
<v Speaker 2>I know it's it's harder to lose a daughter to

586
00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:37.920
<v Speaker 2>death than than to lose her to prison. Maybe, but

587
00:35:39.079 --> 00:35:43.800
<v Speaker 2>she just can't fix sides. So yeah, with the right

588
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:47.159
<v Speaker 2>but the lutemants. Anyway, This is what the eighth or

589
00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:49.679
<v Speaker 2>ninth true crime book I've written. And the families the

590
00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:53.079
<v Speaker 2>victims always make my heart go out. They that never changes.

591
00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:57.079
<v Speaker 2>They they want to do their best to protect their

592
00:35:57.159 --> 00:36:01.800
<v Speaker 2>child's legacy, and yet they want private. They sometimes treat

593
00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:05.559
<v Speaker 2>writers like me like unwanted traveling salesmen, and others treat

594
00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:08.320
<v Speaker 2>me like others treat me like free of charge therapist.

595
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:11.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm using my shoulder to cry on and that's fine.

596
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:15.719
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm injecting myself into their lives. The Ludmans

597
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:17.480
<v Speaker 2>were of the latter group, although I didn't do me

598
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:19.400
<v Speaker 2>any good because by the time I got to them,

599
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:22.800
<v Speaker 2>they had already participated in the national TV show dealing

600
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:26.239
<v Speaker 2>with their daughter's death and had signed an exclusivity agreement

601
00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:31.159
<v Speaker 2>to not give interviews to anyone else. So our discussions

602
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:35.079
<v Speaker 2>were brief, but they did. There were plenty of things.

603
00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:37.119
<v Speaker 4>That I did know.

604
00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:43.440
<v Speaker 2>I knew that their despair knew no bounds of intensity.

605
00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:46.760
<v Speaker 2>Charlie Ludeman was a large man with bad knees, a

606
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:50.639
<v Speaker 2>cab driver who, along with his wife and only daughter,

607
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:54.159
<v Speaker 2>only child had moved to Florida from New York City

608
00:36:54.199 --> 00:36:57.239
<v Speaker 2>because they wanted to be where it was safe. Yeah,

609
00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:02.159
<v Speaker 2>and when Sarah died, Charlie repeatedly dialed Sarah's cell phone

610
00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:04.719
<v Speaker 2>so he could listen to her recorded voice saying Hi,

611
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:08.480
<v Speaker 2>wake for the beef. He realized that was the only

612
00:37:08.599 --> 00:37:10.119
<v Speaker 2>chance he was going to have to hear her voice

613
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:13.920
<v Speaker 2>from then on. He had some with Sarah's ashes injected

614
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:16.599
<v Speaker 2>under his skin as part of a tattoo, so he'd

615
00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:20.679
<v Speaker 2>carry a little of her around with him forever. On

616
00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:24.360
<v Speaker 2>the other side, Rachel's mom had a long suffering mother.

617
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:28.559
<v Speaker 2>She had an older son. There was a Rachel had

618
00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:31.440
<v Speaker 2>an older brother and he no longer lived at home.

619
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:35.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, he was estranged from the family for reasons

620
00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:39.239
<v Speaker 2>that are never spoken out loud, and we just know

621
00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:43.960
<v Speaker 2>that Rachel can't stand him. And then came Rachel after

622
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:47.280
<v Speaker 2>the brother had moved out, and she caused even more grief.

623
00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:51.119
<v Speaker 2>She ran away again and again. As Rachel's mom would

624
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:53.519
<v Speaker 2>put it, she had the hotsy taxis. She had taste

625
00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:56.519
<v Speaker 2>her grown men, and she wanted more. And it was

626
00:37:56.920 --> 00:37:59.079
<v Speaker 2>it was Rachel's mom who really freaked out the most

627
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:01.599
<v Speaker 2>when she heard that Rachel was being charged with murder.

628
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:07.119
<v Speaker 2>It was the last straw she just broke, you know,

629
00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:09.280
<v Speaker 2>she just when she thought she couldn't be hurt even

630
00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:12.840
<v Speaker 2>more about her children, Rachel went and did it. It

631
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:14.840
<v Speaker 2>was as if she stabbed her own mother in the heart.

632
00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:18.880
<v Speaker 2>The woman withdrew into a shell and seemed in a

633
00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:22.320
<v Speaker 2>deep state of shock both during the days after Rachel's

634
00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:26.760
<v Speaker 2>arrest and culminating in court where at one point during

635
00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:30.920
<v Speaker 2>the proceedings, you know, mom buried her face in her

636
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:36.239
<v Speaker 2>husband's chest and just violently shudders for you know, seemingly forever.

637
00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:41.320
<v Speaker 2>And Rachel's dad, also in a state of shock, was

638
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:45.880
<v Speaker 2>physically trying to keep his wife inside her skin. She

639
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:49.480
<v Speaker 2>was shaking so hard. It's really very rough to watch.

640
00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:53.000
<v Speaker 4>Well, Rachel had a lot of friends, high school friends

641
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:55.119
<v Speaker 4>as well, that attended the child, didn't they.

642
00:38:55.880 --> 00:39:01.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah. The place was packed with young people, and

643
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:05.760
<v Speaker 2>one of the true TV reporters who was covering the

644
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:09.159
<v Speaker 2>trial in person, said that during the breaks, the hallway

645
00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:11.960
<v Speaker 2>outside the courtroom sounded like a high school cafeteria with

646
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:17.679
<v Speaker 2>all the chatter going on this extremely young crowd. Rachel

647
00:39:17.719 --> 00:39:20.400
<v Speaker 2>of France was there, and a lot, a lot of

648
00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:22.559
<v Speaker 2>Rachel's waitress friends.

649
00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:26.559
<v Speaker 4>Of a lot of Rachel's friends and a lot of

650
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:31.000
<v Speaker 4>Sarah's friends had really their best friends, had advised both

651
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:34.280
<v Speaker 4>these women or counsels these women, or especially in Sarah's case,

652
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:36.679
<v Speaker 4>had actually spoken to him and said, that's it. I'm

653
00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:39.480
<v Speaker 4>off this guy. This guy's done it again. So there

654
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:42.440
<v Speaker 4>was a lot of advice from their friends and a

655
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:45.199
<v Speaker 4>lot of friends to say, listen, you guys deserve better

656
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:45.679
<v Speaker 4>of this guy.

657
00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:54.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's true, and of course they did. But if

658
00:39:54.320 --> 00:39:58.320
<v Speaker 2>it has to do with the social networking, you're when

659
00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:02.639
<v Speaker 2>you put something to a social network that embarrasses somebody,

660
00:40:03.320 --> 00:40:06.000
<v Speaker 2>it's not private. It's as if you're doing it with

661
00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:14.400
<v Speaker 2>everybody standing around watching. And I mean one of Sarah's

662
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:19.679
<v Speaker 2>most interesting friends was was Ashley love Lady, and she

663
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:23.400
<v Speaker 2>was important to the evening's events because, if we believe

664
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:26.400
<v Speaker 2>the official version of the story, it was Ashley who

665
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:29.719
<v Speaker 2>spotted Rachel hanging out in front of Javier's house and

666
00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:32.880
<v Speaker 2>told Sarah then her two friends where Rachel could be found.

667
00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:37.280
<v Speaker 2>When first interviewed by the police, actually denied a role,

668
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:40.400
<v Speaker 2>and after a day's thought, she realized that this was

669
00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:44.039
<v Speaker 2>too important for her to lie. About She just not

670
00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:46.159
<v Speaker 2>been sure how much trouble she'd be and if she

671
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:50.079
<v Speaker 2>admitted to what she'd done. Ashley was the trial's first

672
00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:53.920
<v Speaker 2>witness and got the emotional ball rolling when she burst

673
00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:56.679
<v Speaker 2>into tears as she discussed the way that Panela's Park

674
00:40:56.800 --> 00:41:03.519
<v Speaker 2>girls were abused by their men. Actually had dated Joshua's

675
00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:04.039
<v Speaker 2>older brother.

676
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:10.920
<v Speaker 4>Now what what was what was Joshua doing like after

677
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:14.480
<v Speaker 4>the during this trial? Was he posting anything on his

678
00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:18.360
<v Speaker 4>Facebook account or pardon me is MySpace account? What was

679
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:22.039
<v Speaker 4>was there any activity like that from this Joshua?

680
00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:26.320
<v Speaker 2>Now? You know, he he drops out of the situation.

681
00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:29.960
<v Speaker 2>He refuses to go with Sarah's father to see her

682
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:34.119
<v Speaker 2>body in the hospital. He is not allowed to attend

683
00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:37.840
<v Speaker 2>her funeral. He only appears at the trial in order

684
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:38.599
<v Speaker 2>to testify.

685
00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:40.880
<v Speaker 4>And he.

686
00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:47.199
<v Speaker 2>She's you know, he's lost his he's lost one girlfriend

687
00:41:48.679 --> 00:41:51.480
<v Speaker 2>to death and the other one to jail. And the

688
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:56.480
<v Speaker 2>third Aaron Slothauer, who is the mother of his child.

689
00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:00.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, she's always going to be around. She's she's

690
00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:04.639
<v Speaker 2>an interesting character too. She refused to give to give interviews,

691
00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:08.039
<v Speaker 2>but she did talk a little bit with me. She

692
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:12.320
<v Speaker 2>was Joshua's first girlfriend. They'd met in grammar school and

693
00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:16.639
<v Speaker 2>they had a child together, and once she got pregnant,

694
00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:20.599
<v Speaker 2>of course he lost interest. And for her part, she

695
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:22.599
<v Speaker 2>was a real life teen mom, and she understood that

696
00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:25.280
<v Speaker 2>Joshua was useless and she was going to have to

697
00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:28.679
<v Speaker 2>step up and be the responsible one. You know. She

698
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:32.320
<v Speaker 2>went back to school, she earned a college degree, she

699
00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:34.679
<v Speaker 2>was pregnant. While she was pregnant, she was working full time.

700
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:39.360
<v Speaker 2>She had her life together, and by the time Rachel

701
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:41.960
<v Speaker 2>killed Sarah, she was out of that world.

702
00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:42.400
<v Speaker 4>You know.

703
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:44.360
<v Speaker 2>She didn't hear anything about it until the next day.

704
00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:48.159
<v Speaker 2>And when I finally got her to make a comment,

705
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:50.440
<v Speaker 2>what she said was, you know, the whole thing is

706
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:53.679
<v Speaker 2>just so sad, crazy teens, so caught up in their

707
00:42:53.719 --> 00:42:55.920
<v Speaker 2>own drama that someone had to die.

708
00:42:57.079 --> 00:43:02.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it is interesting. It is interesting. Yeah, it is

709
00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:06.320
<v Speaker 4>interesting too that josh did not I mean, he couldn't go,

710
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:09.039
<v Speaker 4>He couldn't attend the trial as being a witness. But

711
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:14.840
<v Speaker 4>after he did appear as a witness, he could appear

712
00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:18.119
<v Speaker 4>at the trial. So I thought it kind of odd

713
00:43:18.280 --> 00:43:21.519
<v Speaker 4>that he didn't, that he just I mean, despite the advice,

714
00:43:21.639 --> 00:43:24.679
<v Speaker 4>I mean, this kid really turned as much as he had,

715
00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:28.440
<v Speaker 4>this tough guy persona that he was presenting. He took

716
00:43:28.519 --> 00:43:31.559
<v Speaker 4>the advice of I guess that you know the prosecutor

717
00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:35.480
<v Speaker 4>and his parents or whatever, and he really did not

718
00:43:35.719 --> 00:43:40.280
<v Speaker 4>act like the character is portrayed it earlier in your account.

719
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:44.760
<v Speaker 2>Of absolutely not. He In fact, he ran away. He

720
00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:50.039
<v Speaker 2>went to New York. I think he's now returned to Florida,

721
00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:57.440
<v Speaker 2>but he went into hiding. He's an interesting sidebar. The

722
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:02.119
<v Speaker 2>first journalist to interview Rachel's parents after the murder was

723
00:44:02.199 --> 00:44:04.840
<v Speaker 2>a woman named Laine did Gregory, and she was a

724
00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:09.599
<v Speaker 2>features writer for the Tampa Bay Times, and it was

725
00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:12.880
<v Speaker 2>during her first days of covering the case that she

726
00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:16.800
<v Speaker 2>learned that she had won a Pulitzer Prize. And she

727
00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:19.760
<v Speaker 2>turned out to be a tremendous asset to my book

728
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:22.960
<v Speaker 2>because she offered me a lead that led to a

729
00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:28.199
<v Speaker 2>whole new mind of information, that being the Rachel prison tapes.

730
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:32.719
<v Speaker 2>When Rachel was first thrown in jail, she thought that

731
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:36.480
<v Speaker 2>it was a temporary thing and soon enough everyone would

732
00:44:36.519 --> 00:44:38.679
<v Speaker 2>calm down to figure out that she was just defending

733
00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:41.480
<v Speaker 2>herself and she'd be a free woman once again. So

734
00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:44.039
<v Speaker 2>she used up a lot of her phone time having

735
00:44:44.199 --> 00:44:50.559
<v Speaker 2>phone sex with boys. She seemed to think that it

736
00:44:50.679 --> 00:44:52.719
<v Speaker 2>was the only way for her to keep their attention

737
00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:57.239
<v Speaker 2>interestingly enough. When she wandered to more serious subjects, they

738
00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:01.519
<v Speaker 2>seemed to their interest flagged, so she kept talking about sex,

739
00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:06.719
<v Speaker 2>and apparently prisoner phone sex is not that uncommon, despite

740
00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:09.599
<v Speaker 2>the fact that everyone knows all conversations are being recorded

741
00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:12.239
<v Speaker 2>by the authorities and anything they say can be used

742
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:18.000
<v Speaker 2>against them. Rachel's dad warned her early not to discuss

743
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:22.000
<v Speaker 2>the stabbing, but he didn't say, you don't have phone

744
00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:25.480
<v Speaker 2>sex with your boyfriends. And the recordings of those conversations

745
00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:27.719
<v Speaker 2>are very revealing as we try to figure out, you know,

746
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:31.280
<v Speaker 2>what makes Rachel tick. She asked one guy what was

747
00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:33.039
<v Speaker 2>the first thing he was going to do when he

748
00:45:33.119 --> 00:45:34.880
<v Speaker 2>saw her, And he says he's going to grab her

749
00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:37.000
<v Speaker 2>and squeeze her and kiss her neck. And she said

750
00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:39.440
<v Speaker 2>the first thing when she saw him, she was going

751
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:41.519
<v Speaker 2>to become his little head monster and she was going

752
00:45:41.559 --> 00:45:45.599
<v Speaker 2>to take care of business. This guy wasn't as good

753
00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:47.760
<v Speaker 2>at phone sex as she was, and he kept trying

754
00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:50.519
<v Speaker 2>to put the action inside the jail with Rachel and

755
00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:52.920
<v Speaker 2>her cellmates, and she wasn't going to go for that.

756
00:45:53.719 --> 00:45:58.239
<v Speaker 2>So it's the tapes start out with hot chat with

757
00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:01.519
<v Speaker 2>this boy named Jeremy, and then he loses interest when

758
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:03.679
<v Speaker 2>he realizes that she's not gonna be home next week.

759
00:46:04.599 --> 00:46:06.760
<v Speaker 2>And then she starts in with Javier, little boy, and

760
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:11.440
<v Speaker 2>she's smart enough to cut out the porn and move

761
00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:13.679
<v Speaker 2>to more romantic things with Javier. He's a little bit

762
00:46:13.719 --> 00:46:17.880
<v Speaker 2>classier guy. And Daniel, as I said, they talk about

763
00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:20.000
<v Speaker 2>their their life together and how they're gonna get married.

764
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:23.519
<v Speaker 2>And now, unfortunately, you know, this is all being taped,

765
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:31.760
<v Speaker 2>and the prosecutors the uses the tape later on to attack,

766
00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:35.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, the boy's credibility. On the stand, you'd say

767
00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:39.559
<v Speaker 2>anything you want to marry her. But as you said that,

768
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:42.400
<v Speaker 2>the trial is both shocking and spectacular. I mean, it's

769
00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:47.239
<v Speaker 2>just high drama. The jury had to decide if Rachel

770
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:50.760
<v Speaker 2>had murdered Sarah Ludemant because it was three on one,

771
00:46:51.079 --> 00:46:52.800
<v Speaker 2>or if she had a right to defend herself with

772
00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:56.679
<v Speaker 2>deadly force, and the presentation of the eyewitnesses formed a

773
00:46:56.760 --> 00:47:01.199
<v Speaker 2>perfect framework for the telling of the story, which was

774
00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:07.719
<v Speaker 2>made things relatively easy for me. The wildly different ways

775
00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:12.519
<v Speaker 2>that the eyewitnesses saw things. It proves once and for

776
00:47:12.599 --> 00:47:15.159
<v Speaker 2>all that memory is a vague thing that we argue

777
00:47:15.320 --> 00:47:21.719
<v Speaker 2>to support our beliefs rather than the truth. And how

778
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:27.760
<v Speaker 2>easily influenced you know it we are, how imagination joins

779
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:32.920
<v Speaker 2>hands with memory so easily, especially during a shocking moment

780
00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:36.119
<v Speaker 2>and the most dramatic moment of the trials, when Rachel

781
00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:39.039
<v Speaker 2>Wade takes the stand in her own defense. It's a

782
00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:42.719
<v Speaker 2>risky move for defense attorney Jabor, but like you said,

783
00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:45.480
<v Speaker 2>in a self defense case, have to put her on

784
00:47:46.519 --> 00:47:49.920
<v Speaker 2>and in the you know, ultimately doesn't doesn't really pay off.

785
00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:56.159
<v Speaker 2>It goes well during direct examination. He rather stringently controls

786
00:47:56.239 --> 00:47:59.719
<v Speaker 2>her words through carefully constructed sentences. You know, they worked

787
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:02.760
<v Speaker 2>as a team, describing for the jury the fear Rachel

788
00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:06.199
<v Speaker 2>felt and how she was jumped by multiple girls, and

789
00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:08.440
<v Speaker 2>how she feared she was gonna be beaten to a pulp.

790
00:48:09.079 --> 00:48:11.880
<v Speaker 2>And she thought, me, maybe Joshua had a gun, maybe

791
00:48:11.960 --> 00:48:14.440
<v Speaker 2>his sister had the gun, maybe he'd lent the gun

792
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:17.360
<v Speaker 2>to Sarah. She felt she had a very good reason

793
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:19.440
<v Speaker 2>to armed herself that night. But the purpose of the

794
00:48:19.519 --> 00:48:21.159
<v Speaker 2>knife was never to use it. It was just to

795
00:48:21.320 --> 00:48:23.440
<v Speaker 2>show it. And the sight of that blade was going

796
00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:26.760
<v Speaker 2>to cause the gang to back down and there would

797
00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:29.800
<v Speaker 2>be peace in the world. That was the plan and

798
00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:33.199
<v Speaker 2>he's gone horribly wrong. It was so tragic and whoo who.

799
00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:37.599
<v Speaker 4>So gunn goes okay, so go ahead, go ahead.

800
00:48:38.360 --> 00:48:42.559
<v Speaker 2>Direct examination goes well. But then Rachel's turned over to

801
00:48:42.760 --> 00:48:48.679
<v Speaker 2>prosecutor sus Hannahwiz, who lights into her like a wolverine.

802
00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:53.519
<v Speaker 2>So Hannah Wiz speaks very fast. She interrupts Rachel's answers.

803
00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:57.159
<v Speaker 2>She yelled, and Rachel did not take it well. She

804
00:48:57.360 --> 00:49:00.320
<v Speaker 2>lost control of her emotions that began to babble and

805
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:04.719
<v Speaker 2>words filled out, completely out of her attorney's control at

806
00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:07.920
<v Speaker 2>this point, and she said stuff. It was damaging. Yes,

807
00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:11.559
<v Speaker 2>she threatened to murder Sarah. Yes, she carried out that threat.

808
00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:12.280
<v Speaker 2>Oh boy.

809
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:13.480
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

810
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:16.159
<v Speaker 2>But you know, as I said before, before we get

811
00:49:16.199 --> 00:49:19.320
<v Speaker 2>too critical of you know, mister Abert, he's got to

812
00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:21.760
<v Speaker 2>put her on not only because of the self defense

813
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:24.360
<v Speaker 2>but because of those you know, those damn tapes of

814
00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:29.000
<v Speaker 2>of her threatening Sarah and the voicemails.

815
00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:32.119
<v Speaker 4>But what did you think of the of the argument

816
00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:34.519
<v Speaker 4>that he put forth. Anyway, it seems almost on the

817
00:49:34.679 --> 00:49:38.760
<v Speaker 4>line of not being able to be eligible for self

818
00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:41.440
<v Speaker 4>defense by saying that, well, she just brought out the

819
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:45.079
<v Speaker 4>knife because she thought they may have a gun. Well,

820
00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:48.039
<v Speaker 4>that's almost the definition of it doesn't matter. You went

821
00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:50.000
<v Speaker 4>to a robbery, you didn't know that you were going

822
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:52.559
<v Speaker 4>to encounter any difficulty, and the guy ends up dead.

823
00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:53.679
<v Speaker 4>Guess what murder?

824
00:49:54.440 --> 00:49:56.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't think. I don't think anybody bought the

825
00:49:56.719 --> 00:50:00.880
<v Speaker 2>thing about the gun. It was perfectly the gun. The gun.

826
00:50:01.119 --> 00:50:05.039
<v Speaker 2>The gun wasn't mentioned during preliminary hearings. It was a

827
00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:09.039
<v Speaker 2>late entry into the into the story or of a

828
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:10.519
<v Speaker 2>desperate less did attempt.

829
00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:13.719
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, but I'm saying, though, what did you think of

830
00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:16.920
<v Speaker 4>his I mean, he didn't really even have a good

831
00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:21.480
<v Speaker 4>argument anyway, when you in terms of actual self defense,

832
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:23.519
<v Speaker 4>if you were already brought out a weapon in case

833
00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:26.920
<v Speaker 4>and then something else happens, that's not much of a

834
00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:29.599
<v Speaker 4>self defense excuse either. And that's this what's wrong as

835
00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:31.239
<v Speaker 4>he could present, that's.

836
00:50:31.159 --> 00:50:35.199
<v Speaker 2>Right all he could only use it to address her

837
00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:39.440
<v Speaker 2>state of mind. Yeah, that that she is and if

838
00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:42.079
<v Speaker 2>he knew. He never said she was afraid. He always

839
00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:45.039
<v Speaker 2>said she was in fear if I was a god

840
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:48.239
<v Speaker 2>affectation and not quite sure what that was supposed to accomplish,

841
00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:52.480
<v Speaker 2>But that was that was the reason that he introduced

842
00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:55.800
<v Speaker 2>the gun. And he even called Joshua Camacho to the

843
00:50:55.880 --> 00:50:58.880
<v Speaker 2>stand to talk about the gun, and he got him

844
00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:00.760
<v Speaker 2>to admit that at one time we had a gun,

845
00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:04.239
<v Speaker 2>but Joshua was not in the mood to cooperate anyway

846
00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:06.960
<v Speaker 2>and gave yes and no answers and said he didn't

847
00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:10.840
<v Speaker 2>remember a lot and wasn't on the stand for very

848
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:11.320
<v Speaker 2>long at all.

849
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:15.760
<v Speaker 4>What was Rachel Wade's demeanor? Like it had they done

850
00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:18.360
<v Speaker 4>a pretty good job in that direct examination of sort

851
00:51:18.400 --> 00:51:20.719
<v Speaker 4>of like lots of times it will change almost their

852
00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:23.519
<v Speaker 4>appearance to look as wholesome and innocent as possible.

853
00:51:24.039 --> 00:51:30.480
<v Speaker 2>And then she was dressed in white and black, both

854
00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:34.480
<v Speaker 2>innocent and in mourning. She was allowed to wear I

855
00:51:34.679 --> 00:51:37.639
<v Speaker 2>make up the day that she testified, but she went

856
00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:43.519
<v Speaker 2>without I make up. Otherwise she seemed to be very

857
00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:49.840
<v Speaker 2>well rehearsed, she gave answers. By wrote, she seemed very

858
00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:56.679
<v Speaker 2>very demure, very soft spoken, tiny little voice, and it's

859
00:51:57.119 --> 00:52:01.280
<v Speaker 2>it's amazing to watch it all crumble. Second, you know,

860
00:52:01.639 --> 00:52:05.679
<v Speaker 2>miss Haniwitz lights into her, they start the other. They

861
00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:09.840
<v Speaker 2>immediately start yelling at each other, and you know, poor

862
00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:13.599
<v Speaker 2>Jay Avery's sitting there just going a home because the

863
00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:16.840
<v Speaker 2>jury is hearing the voice they heard on the tape

864
00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:20.960
<v Speaker 2>start to come out once. Once Rachel gets agitated, you

865
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:24.239
<v Speaker 2>start to hear that manic sound that there's something wrong

866
00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:28.920
<v Speaker 2>with this girl sound to her voice, and yeah.

867
00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:34.360
<v Speaker 4>So uh, talk about one last question. I want to

868
00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:37.039
<v Speaker 4>ask for one of the last ones, who were the

869
00:52:37.159 --> 00:52:41.679
<v Speaker 4>most compelling witnesses and for who did they speak on

870
00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:44.360
<v Speaker 4>behalf of in your mind?

871
00:52:47.679 --> 00:52:55.840
<v Speaker 2>I was most impressed, I think with Janet Camancho. Janet

872
00:52:55.880 --> 00:53:00.280
<v Speaker 2>Camacho had a clear sense of who the good guys

873
00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:04.519
<v Speaker 2>and the bad guys were and came into that evening

874
00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:08.519
<v Speaker 2>with that sense. Just the whole fact of I didn't

875
00:53:08.719 --> 00:53:10.719
<v Speaker 2>like Rachel because I thought she was bad for my

876
00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:19.719
<v Speaker 2>brother's That's that's strong character assassination right right for the

877
00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:24.599
<v Speaker 2>cherry to hear. And the way she looked, she was

878
00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:28.920
<v Speaker 2>stared at the defendant while she testified, you know, and

879
00:53:29.079 --> 00:53:32.320
<v Speaker 2>it's just very very very very strong, a strong woman

880
00:53:33.199 --> 00:53:37.960
<v Speaker 2>who made it very clear that she attacked Rachel because

881
00:53:38.599 --> 00:53:42.679
<v Speaker 2>Rachel had just stabbed her friend. And this whole notion

882
00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:47.360
<v Speaker 2>of three girls jumping her was was nonsense. They would

883
00:53:47.400 --> 00:53:49.400
<v Speaker 2>have had a fifth sight, you know, it would have

884
00:53:49.400 --> 00:53:52.079
<v Speaker 2>been broken up in thirty seconds. Maybe somebody that had

885
00:53:52.119 --> 00:53:54.920
<v Speaker 2>a bloody lip, and that would have been that except

886
00:53:55.880 --> 00:54:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Rachel brought a knife, and that was why found compellerve.

887
00:54:03.079 --> 00:54:12.840
<v Speaker 4>I talked to Detective Local Ahead, Sorry.

888
00:54:13.280 --> 00:54:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I talked to the detectives of the lead detective

889
00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:20.800
<v Speaker 2>Michael Lynch, and I asked him, you know, why do

890
00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:25.239
<v Speaker 2>the girls in this story have such low self esteem?

891
00:54:26.719 --> 00:54:28.440
<v Speaker 2>And he told me that he couldn't believe that there

892
00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:30.519
<v Speaker 2>were so many fathers out there in Panel's Park, and

893
00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:33.760
<v Speaker 2>he presumed everywhere else as well, who allowed their daughters

894
00:54:33.800 --> 00:54:38.440
<v Speaker 2>to have such dangerously low opinions of themselves. You know,

895
00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:42.119
<v Speaker 2>we're worthless without a boyfriend. I have to have a

896
00:54:42.159 --> 00:54:45.039
<v Speaker 2>boyfriend all the time or else there's something wrong with us.

897
00:54:45.639 --> 00:54:47.559
<v Speaker 2>And reminded me when they asked Stephen King about the

898
00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:51.159
<v Speaker 2>difference between Harry Potter books and the Twilight books, since

899
00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:55.000
<v Speaker 2>the Harry Potter books are about stepping up team work,

900
00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:58.119
<v Speaker 2>facing your fears, and the Twilight books are about the

901
00:54:58.159 --> 00:54:59.480
<v Speaker 2>importance of having a boyfriend.

902
00:55:00.519 --> 00:55:03.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, this is my book.

903
00:55:03.480 --> 00:55:06.320
<v Speaker 2>A Knife and Heart is the is the anti Twilight books.

904
00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:08.800
<v Speaker 2>If there's a lesson to be learned here, it's that

905
00:55:09.159 --> 00:55:11.639
<v Speaker 2>it's not at a point important to have a boyfriend

906
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:17.239
<v Speaker 2>you grow up, be happy. And he says that he

907
00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:20.079
<v Speaker 2>has daughters of his own, Detective Lynch, and that he

908
00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:25.360
<v Speaker 2>is constantly just inflating their egos, and when he is

909
00:55:25.480 --> 00:55:27.480
<v Speaker 2>girls are older, he wants, you know, he wants them

910
00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:29.679
<v Speaker 2>to think that no one's good enough for them and

911
00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:32.239
<v Speaker 2>to demand the very best and how they're treated no

912
00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:33.000
<v Speaker 2>matter what.

913
00:55:35.239 --> 00:55:37.400
<v Speaker 4>Well. I think the thing is, I think we forget

914
00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:42.400
<v Speaker 4>how it was when we were young. I mean, the

915
00:55:42.519 --> 00:55:45.320
<v Speaker 4>thing is a lot of I think kids have been

916
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:48.559
<v Speaker 4>forced to grow up much much younger, and I think

917
00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:51.679
<v Speaker 4>they look at everything much more seriously. And I don't

918
00:55:51.679 --> 00:55:53.480
<v Speaker 4>think it's that much of a surprise. I have a

919
00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:58.199
<v Speaker 4>nineteen year old daughter that is in a serious relationship

920
00:55:58.280 --> 00:56:00.519
<v Speaker 4>with her boyfriend for the last three years. I mean

921
00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:05.199
<v Speaker 4>when I was at age, I couldn't even possibly grasp that,

922
00:56:05.400 --> 00:56:07.800
<v Speaker 4>and I was not that kind of person. But I

923
00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:11.000
<v Speaker 4>think kids have changed in that respect and they take

924
00:56:11.159 --> 00:56:14.280
<v Speaker 4>these things much more seriously. But you do add a

925
00:56:14.360 --> 00:56:18.480
<v Speaker 4>mix of drugs and low self esteem and maybe estrangement

926
00:56:18.559 --> 00:56:20.920
<v Speaker 4>from their parents, or at least at least there's not

927
00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:24.440
<v Speaker 4>as close as they could possibly be, and like you say,

928
00:56:24.599 --> 00:56:30.079
<v Speaker 4>just this confluence of things and you get this sad

929
00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:32.920
<v Speaker 4>and tragic end result, But there is a fair amount

930
00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:36.159
<v Speaker 4>of these people posing and making threats. That's what I

931
00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:40.039
<v Speaker 4>find too, that a lot of younger people make threats

932
00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:45.039
<v Speaker 4>without understanding that somebody might take those threats that they

933
00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:47.400
<v Speaker 4>do daily and take them quite seriously.

934
00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:52.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, I spoke to a psychological counselor named Katy Morelli,

935
00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:54.760
<v Speaker 2>and she told me that there's a change in brain

936
00:56:54.880 --> 00:56:59.800
<v Speaker 2>chemistry that happens to people when they have sex. Biologically

937
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:04.840
<v Speaker 2>attachment forms and the brain changes from shared experience produced

938
00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:09.599
<v Speaker 2>potent emotions, causing normally mild people to reserve, to resort

939
00:57:09.679 --> 00:57:14.239
<v Speaker 2>to violence. Teenagers aren't adults, so it's a strong immature attachment.

940
00:57:15.800 --> 00:57:20.079
<v Speaker 2>Passion stirs up primal possessiveness. And you know, there's a

941
00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:23.559
<v Speaker 2>strong chance that that Rachel had problems at home, that

942
00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:28.159
<v Speaker 2>she entered entered the world with a certain void, because

943
00:57:28.199 --> 00:57:30.480
<v Speaker 2>most girls don't drop out of school and run away

944
00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:35.199
<v Speaker 2>from home just because of an unwanted curfew. You know,

945
00:57:35.320 --> 00:57:37.320
<v Speaker 2>it's it's clear that she was a difficult child with

946
00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:39.920
<v Speaker 2>whom to cope, and that there was maybe maybe a

947
00:57:40.039 --> 00:57:44.239
<v Speaker 2>mismatch in temperaments between the parents and the child. You know,

948
00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:49.039
<v Speaker 2>she for whatever reason, didn't have any faith in herself

949
00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:52.440
<v Speaker 2>as an individual. She combined that with poor decision making,

950
00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:56.960
<v Speaker 2>extreme anger management difficulties, and you know, there you go,

951
00:57:58.639 --> 00:58:03.159
<v Speaker 2>and she's she's down. A boy who's narcissistic. He's got

952
00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:07.000
<v Speaker 2>an inflated sense of self importance, an exaggerated need for admiration,

953
00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:12.320
<v Speaker 2>and as it's true with many narcissists, he appeared arrogantly,

954
00:58:12.440 --> 00:58:16.159
<v Speaker 2>self assured and confident. Although that turned out not to

955
00:58:16.239 --> 00:58:18.679
<v Speaker 2>be the actual case. We could see by observing his

956
00:58:18.800 --> 00:58:21.599
<v Speaker 2>behavior that he reacted poorly when things weren't going his way.

957
00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:25.199
<v Speaker 2>You know, long before the murder, he punched Sarah. At

958
00:58:25.239 --> 00:58:28.880
<v Speaker 2>one point, he pulled a gun on Rachel. You know,

959
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:31.559
<v Speaker 2>his work history demonstrated the lack of ambition, you know,

960
00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:35.159
<v Speaker 2>perhaps because he feared competitive situations and he lived his

961
00:58:35.239 --> 00:58:39.159
<v Speaker 2>life avoiding the risk of failure. So, you know, narcissists,

962
00:58:39.199 --> 00:58:42.519
<v Speaker 2>with their intrinsic lack of regard for others feelings, they

963
00:58:42.639 --> 00:58:46.440
<v Speaker 2>prey on people with dependent personalities. They feed off of

964
00:58:46.559 --> 00:58:51.840
<v Speaker 2>others and enjoy being fought over, enjoy manipulating their sexual partners.

965
00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:56.360
<v Speaker 2>Josh's girls were prayed for the opportunist narcissists and he

966
00:58:56.559 --> 00:58:59.719
<v Speaker 2>was drawn to them like a shark to blood.

967
00:59:01.559 --> 00:59:05.039
<v Speaker 4>Do you also think it's somewhat interesting commentary too, that

968
00:59:05.400 --> 00:59:09.360
<v Speaker 4>it is very quite rare for women to kill in

969
00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:13.400
<v Speaker 4>comparison to the vast majority of being men. However, there

970
00:59:13.480 --> 00:59:18.920
<v Speaker 4>seems to be a slight increase, especially in younger younger people,

971
00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:22.119
<v Speaker 4>in terms of fighting in this kind of context, or

972
00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:25.960
<v Speaker 4>parents killing their parents or killing siblings. And what I

973
00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:28.360
<v Speaker 4>thought was interesting is that you talk about Rachel, but

974
00:59:28.719 --> 00:59:31.320
<v Speaker 4>you know, Sarah did go there with a couple of women,

975
00:59:32.039 --> 00:59:34.280
<v Speaker 4>a couple other women in a van, and you know,

976
00:59:34.679 --> 00:59:37.000
<v Speaker 4>to you or I, I'm fifty three years old, so

977
00:59:37.519 --> 00:59:39.920
<v Speaker 4>I'm saying, man, that just sounds like a bunch of guys,

978
00:59:40.119 --> 00:59:43.079
<v Speaker 4>and not all guys would have done that. So it

979
00:59:43.119 --> 00:59:46.119
<v Speaker 4>seems oddly rare, or not rare, but odd odd that

980
00:59:46.519 --> 00:59:48.920
<v Speaker 4>you do have this nineteen year olds in a van

981
00:59:49.880 --> 00:59:52.960
<v Speaker 4>over a boyfriend getting out of a van and somebody

982
00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:56.400
<v Speaker 4>with a knife and somebody spotting someone else. It seems

983
00:59:56.800 --> 00:59:59.639
<v Speaker 4>high drama and very very serious. It almost seems like

984
00:59:59.840 --> 01:00:03.119
<v Speaker 4>the kinds of things that boys would do, say over

985
01:00:03.199 --> 01:00:06.400
<v Speaker 4>a drug debt or something. Sure, it seems seems out

986
01:00:06.440 --> 01:00:10.400
<v Speaker 4>of place for young women to be acting like thugs.

987
01:00:10.840 --> 01:00:16.199
<v Speaker 2>It's almost unique. It's uh uh a detective when she

988
01:00:16.239 --> 01:00:20.320
<v Speaker 2>says that, you know, ninety five percent of all murders

989
01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:26.239
<v Speaker 2>involve a male, and it's very uncommon for the I mean,

990
01:00:26.280 --> 01:00:29.119
<v Speaker 2>the remaining five percent girl woman on woman, girl on

991
01:00:29.239 --> 01:00:32.239
<v Speaker 2>girl crime is very is very rare to begin with,

992
01:00:32.559 --> 01:00:37.039
<v Speaker 2>and especially in a combative situation like this. You know,

993
01:00:37.079 --> 01:00:40.159
<v Speaker 2>I said, there is there is an uptick in violence

994
01:00:40.280 --> 01:00:44.159
<v Speaker 2>among teen girls, but it's the you know, she looked

995
01:00:44.199 --> 01:00:47.599
<v Speaker 2>at me wrong type of fight. There's hair pulling and scratching,

996
01:00:47.679 --> 01:00:49.599
<v Speaker 2>and then that it gets broken up and there's a

997
01:00:49.639 --> 01:00:53.119
<v Speaker 2>lot more cursing at each other, but nobody really gets hurt.

998
01:00:53.679 --> 01:00:56.360
<v Speaker 2>You know, she's he hopes this is a one of

999
01:00:56.400 --> 01:00:57.639
<v Speaker 2>a kind kind of incident.

1000
01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:01.760
<v Speaker 4>I want to ask you too, Michael. We've got just

1001
01:01:01.800 --> 01:01:03.679
<v Speaker 4>a few minutes left. We've got about five minutes left,

1002
01:01:03.840 --> 01:01:05.719
<v Speaker 4>But I want to ask you how did you come

1003
01:01:06.039 --> 01:01:09.199
<v Speaker 4>to write visign. I know that you've handled all kinds

1004
01:01:09.239 --> 01:01:12.199
<v Speaker 4>of really heavy, heavy stories that other authors might back

1005
01:01:12.239 --> 01:01:16.119
<v Speaker 4>away from, very very intense. Why what what about this story?

1006
01:01:18.280 --> 01:01:21.559
<v Speaker 4>I want made you want to write about this, this

1007
01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:22.480
<v Speaker 4>case itself?

1008
01:01:23.599 --> 01:01:28.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it had to do with in its

1009
01:01:28.519 --> 01:01:32.159
<v Speaker 2>own way, as I just said, it's it's it's pretty bizarre.

1010
01:01:32.920 --> 01:01:35.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's not it's not a serial killer, and

1011
01:01:35.079 --> 01:01:37.320
<v Speaker 2>it's not spooking. It's not a horror story like the

1012
01:01:37.400 --> 01:01:42.000
<v Speaker 2>stories I usually tell. It's it's a it's a it's

1013
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:45.639
<v Speaker 2>a psychological drama. And the question is, and I'm not

1014
01:01:45.639 --> 01:01:49.159
<v Speaker 2>even sure I answered it adequately, the question is how

1015
01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:52.679
<v Speaker 2>how did these girls get this way? You know, what,

1016
01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:56.760
<v Speaker 2>what is it? What is it about today's society, about

1017
01:01:56.960 --> 01:02:00.840
<v Speaker 2>maybe that region, maybe America, maybe maybe the world? What

1018
01:02:01.039 --> 01:02:04.639
<v Speaker 2>is it about today that allows this to happen? Uh?

1019
01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:10.159
<v Speaker 2>As you said, yeah, they sound like their guys been

1020
01:02:10.239 --> 01:02:12.280
<v Speaker 2>defeminized completely.

1021
01:02:12.639 --> 01:02:14.599
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, absolutely, Yeah.

1022
01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:17.760
<v Speaker 2>And it's the and it's the the scrawny little male

1023
01:02:18.039 --> 01:02:22.719
<v Speaker 2>who wants to be kept yeah like trop.

1024
01:02:23.440 --> 01:02:26.280
<v Speaker 4>Exactly yeah and not yeah, like you said, this a

1025
01:02:26.320 --> 01:02:32.239
<v Speaker 4>little a little guy too, you know, just posing it's right, incredible.

1026
01:02:32.360 --> 01:02:36.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So anyway, uh, my next book, we're going to

1027
01:02:36.639 --> 01:02:39.480
<v Speaker 2>get back to what's more in character. I think for me,

1028
01:02:40.119 --> 01:02:43.519
<v Speaker 2>it's true horror film of a book. I believe it's

1029
01:02:43.559 --> 01:02:45.960
<v Speaker 2>gonna be I believe it's gonna be called Mutilator the

1030
01:02:46.119 --> 01:02:49.719
<v Speaker 2>Art Gallery Butcher. It's the story of Elton Brutus Murphy,

1031
01:02:49.840 --> 01:02:52.360
<v Speaker 2>a former sailor who had once tried out to be

1032
01:02:52.519 --> 01:02:55.320
<v Speaker 2>a navy seal, who claimed to hear voices in his

1033
01:02:55.440 --> 01:02:58.320
<v Speaker 2>head that ordered him to rape and kill women. Uh

1034
01:02:58.559 --> 01:03:02.119
<v Speaker 2>for years, he says, he's been the voices, which also

1035
01:03:02.239 --> 01:03:04.320
<v Speaker 2>told him that he was a special chosen one, perhaps

1036
01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:07.719
<v Speaker 2>a god himself, the Lord Brutus, he called himself. And

1037
01:03:08.159 --> 01:03:12.440
<v Speaker 2>the body of Joyce Wishart was found on Wednesday, January

1038
01:03:12.480 --> 01:03:14.960
<v Speaker 2>twenty one, two thousand and four, on the floor of

1039
01:03:15.039 --> 01:03:20.400
<v Speaker 2>her Palm Avenue art gallery in Sarasota, Florida. She was

1040
01:03:20.440 --> 01:03:25.079
<v Speaker 2>strangled and mutilated. After death, her crotch was surgically removed.

1041
01:03:25.719 --> 01:03:27.840
<v Speaker 2>And the thing that makes this book different for me

1042
01:03:28.599 --> 01:03:31.599
<v Speaker 2>was the killer's willingness to share with me his story.

1043
01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:34.920
<v Speaker 2>And he describes in great detail his slow descent into

1044
01:03:35.000 --> 01:03:38.199
<v Speaker 2>madness and for the first time details and how he

1045
01:03:38.360 --> 01:03:39.920
<v Speaker 2>killed and mutilated his victim.

1046
01:03:41.000 --> 01:03:45.320
<v Speaker 4>Wow, so I can relate. I can relate that problem.

1047
01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:46.800
<v Speaker 4>I'm looking forward to that guy.

1048
01:03:47.559 --> 01:03:49.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you want to. My job is to keep ladies

1049
01:03:50.039 --> 01:03:54.599
<v Speaker 2>from going to sleep at night or returned to form

1050
01:03:54.679 --> 01:03:55.199
<v Speaker 2>with that one.

1051
01:03:56.280 --> 01:03:58.840
<v Speaker 4>I've heard that one before. I'm going to read the book.

1052
01:03:58.880 --> 01:04:02.480
<v Speaker 2>But not at night, had me today night, And of

1053
01:04:02.519 --> 01:04:05.320
<v Speaker 2>course I'm still conducting an investigation into a cold case

1054
01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:08.920
<v Speaker 2>double homicide. The hook being that the victims were classmates

1055
01:04:08.920 --> 01:04:12.760
<v Speaker 2>of mine. Two girls fourteen and sixteen, took place near

1056
01:04:12.800 --> 01:04:16.320
<v Speaker 2>my rural home, grewsome sex mers changed that neck of

1057
01:04:16.360 --> 01:04:20.960
<v Speaker 2>the woods forever, certainly changed my world. And I'm working

1058
01:04:21.079 --> 01:04:25.159
<v Speaker 2>with a private detective in Don Tubman up in Scottsville,

1059
01:04:25.199 --> 01:04:28.559
<v Speaker 2>New York, and we're gonna find out who did it.

1060
01:04:28.639 --> 01:04:31.039
<v Speaker 2>It's forty five years later, but we're going to give them,

1061
01:04:31.119 --> 01:04:32.960
<v Speaker 2>the mother one of the victims some closure.

1062
01:04:33.960 --> 01:04:36.760
<v Speaker 4>Very interesting, very interesting, good work. Good luck to with

1063
01:04:36.920 --> 01:04:39.719
<v Speaker 4>that Imperial on Earth something.

1064
01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:43.519
<v Speaker 2>Thank you all. Well, we already have We're getting close.

1065
01:04:44.039 --> 01:04:47.320
<v Speaker 4>Ah, Paul, I hate I'd love to hear about that.

1066
01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:49.079
<v Speaker 4>And of course we'll have you back on the program

1067
01:04:49.159 --> 01:04:52.079
<v Speaker 4>talking about those two very very interesting books that I'm

1068
01:04:52.119 --> 01:04:58.000
<v Speaker 4>sure you'll be pumping out of your incredible book factory

1069
01:04:58.039 --> 01:05:00.320
<v Speaker 4>that you have going on there and where you live.

1070
01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:02.159
<v Speaker 4>I want to thank you very much for coming on

1071
01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:06.079
<v Speaker 4>the program. I'm very engaging, another engaging interview and a

1072
01:05:06.440 --> 01:05:09.440
<v Speaker 4>great book. And for those listening, it's been a knife

1073
01:05:09.519 --> 01:05:13.039
<v Speaker 4>in the heart. Michael Benson's latest true crime soon to

1074
01:05:13.119 --> 01:05:16.760
<v Speaker 4>be best selling classic, No Doubt. Thank you very much, Michael,

1075
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:19.159
<v Speaker 4>have yourself a good evening and talk to you soon.

1076
01:05:19.599 --> 01:05:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Good Night,