WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:03.120 All right, Karen, let me ask you this, what do 2 00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:07.919 you call someone that mixes Toro cards, functory ancient Sumerian texts, 3 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:10.519 and a corporate BS detector in one person? 4 00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:11.599 Busy? 5 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:16.280 Busy? Yeah? Yeah, Well, before I started researching this week's guess, 6 00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:20.440 I would have said a really confused fortune teller. But noe, 7 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:23.280 you actually get the skeptical shaman. And she's here today 8 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:26.480 to expose the con artists and cults lurking in the 9 00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:29.800 WU world while teaching us how to use ancient practices 10 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:33.359 to I don't know, boost your business or out negotiate 11 00:00:33.399 --> 00:00:33.920 your boss. 12 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:37.600 Well, I mean that would be good. Well, since I'm 13 00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:39.000 lucky at you because you're sometimes my. 14 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:42.799 Boss, I'm just gonna say you're the boss. So how 15 00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:45.880 does it feel about that? I've actually it actually excites 16 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:48.399 me because I'm thinking she might actually be able to 17 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:50.200 teach me how to use the Toro cards to help 18 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:54.079 me finally win an argument with my boss. But she 19 00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:58.039 also has functuay tips to avoid the zombie apocalypse, and 20 00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:01.159 that's something that's really interesting. Or she calls it a 21 00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:03.920 cosmic rebirth in twenty twenty four, And I mean, who 22 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:06.480 couldn't use some cosmic rebirth. I know all right, Well, 23 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:10.359 get ready, folks, because this episode is spirituality meets skeptical 24 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:13.400 meets shamanic mic drops. If you're looking for a no 25 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:15.319 nonsense way to crack into the world of the woo, 26 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:18.120 this might just be the episode for you. 27 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:22.319 My name is Will, and I'm garous, and unlike Boulder 28 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:23.319 and Scully. 29 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:23.920 Both want to believe. 30 00:01:24.040 --> 00:01:25.959 So we've embarked in a journey of discovery. 31 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:28.560 We've talked to people deeply entrenched in the spiritual and 32 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:29.480 metaphysical world. 33 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:32.799 We've thrown ourselves into weird and wonderful experiences. I even 34 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:34.319 joined a coven of witches. 35 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:36.400 And wait, you joined a coven. 36 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:39.239 Yep, all on the interest of finding something, anything that 37 00:01:39.319 --> 00:01:42.040 will prove that there's something beyond this physical. 38 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:43.280 Three dimensional world we all live in. 39 00:01:43.480 --> 00:01:55.640 This is the skeptic metaphysicians. 40 00:01:57.799 --> 00:01:57.959 There. 41 00:01:57.959 --> 00:01:59.920 It's Will just stepping in here for a second ask 42 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:03.120 you for a favor. See, the main reason we do 43 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:05.840 this show is to help others in their spiritual awakening, 44 00:02:06.200 --> 00:02:09.479 and nothing makes us happier than to hear or read 45 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:11.800 messages from those that are resonating with the messages we're 46 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:14.240 sharing on the show. So if you have a moment. 47 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:17.280 We'd love for you to contribute to the show by 48 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:20.759 heading to Skepticmanaphysician dot com and sending us a voicemail 49 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:24.240 or an email from our website, or if you prefer, 50 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:27.120 we'd love for you to leave us a review on 51 00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:31.639 Apple Podcasts or any other podcasting platform that supports them. 52 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:34.479 Karen and I love hearing from those that are moved 53 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:39.159 to message us. It truly does fuel our passion. You 54 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:41.840 are the reason we do this show, and knowing what 55 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:43.759 you like and don't like, well not going to help 56 00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:46.080 us craft the very best show we can so that 57 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:49.840 we can help raise the vibration of the planet together. Okay, 58 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:52.479 I've kept you from the interview long enough, so let's 59 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:56.759 get to it. Thanks for listening. Hey there, welcome back 60 00:02:56.800 --> 00:02:59.400 to the Skeptic Metaposition that I'm will and today we're 61 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:03.199 thrilled to welcome Rachel White, better known as the Skeptical Shaman, 62 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:06.439 to the show. With a unique blend of corporate savvy 63 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:10.159 and shamanic expertise, Rachel is here to call out the 64 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:12.960 con artists and occults lurking in the world of the 65 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:16.599 WU while offering us practical tips to help us navigate 66 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.680 our own spiritual journey. Now she's a modern rebrand of 67 00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:24.439 ancient wisdom, combining practices like to row, functuary and shamanism 68 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:28.120 with deep insights into ancient texts and even wu based 69 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:32.479 conspiracy theories. Now Rachel's here to show us how spirituality 70 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:35.400 isn't just personal, it can be a powerful enabler in 71 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:39.439 business and life, all the while reminding us that thriving 72 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:44.319 in a chaotic world isn't just possible, it's our moral obligation. 73 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:47.560 I like that. I do feel short. 74 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:50.520 Well, this is the perfect episode for you. Then tell 75 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:53.919 if you've ever wondered how skepticism and spirituality can coexist. 76 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:56.879 Rachel has the answers. Get ready for a conversation that's 77 00:03:56.919 --> 00:04:00.680 equal parts practical, profound, and downright fast nading. Welcome to 78 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:02.159 the show, Rachel. How are you today? 79 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:04.439 I'm much better and I have to take you guys 80 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:05.280 with me everywhere. 81 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:09.639 We do offer a service where we record our voice, 82 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:11.680 our interests. We send them to people. If you're interested, 83 00:04:11.719 --> 00:04:12.120 we'd be happy. 84 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:15.240 I'm going to carry a boom box on my shoulder 85 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:18.839 and just play that because you make me sound a 86 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:21.600 lot more dynamic and awesome than if you could see 87 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:24.680 the reality of what the skeptical Shaman is. 88 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:25.759 It would bum you out. 89 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:31.560 It's days in sweatpants, making tinctures, answering emails. 90 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:34.360 It's I was gonna say, in a lot of little bottles. 91 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:38.800 A little bottles. It's not the sexiest stuff all the time. 92 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:39.920 But yeah. 93 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:42.160 We did mention a couple of mic drops in the introduction, 94 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:45.120 and you just dropped the first one. Want wall like, 95 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:47.120 how do you go from there? We're suppose just supposed 96 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:52.480 to be exciting and a good and uh not hour, Rachel, No. 97 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:53.199 Not a bummer. 98 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:56.439 It's just it's it's it's interesting. Have you guys ever 99 00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:59.399 had the experience of it's through the looking glass moment? 100 00:04:59.480 --> 00:04:59.680 For me? 101 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:02.839 Once someone introduces you and lists you know, you're like, 102 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:03.759 what does that sound like? 103 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:06.759 All those things? And I was like schizophrenic on the bus. 104 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:10.160 I like that better than a crazy fortune teller. 105 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:14.360 Yeah, I mean it's it really is something, and it's 106 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:17.800 funny because it sounds very disjointed and it sounds like 107 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:20.959 a series of contradictions, just like the skeptical Shawman. I 108 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:23.800 picked that moniker for my podcast because I knew it 109 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:27.040 was going to confuse people and if something confuses them, 110 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:31.120 it intrigues them, and it's not a contradiction actually, And 111 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:35.720 you know, skepticism and spirituality are inextricably linked because I 112 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:40.439 think skepticism is inherently curious and there's energy there about 113 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:42.800 asking questions. And you know, I used to be a 114 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:45.279 good little atheist. I worked in corporate real estate and 115 00:05:45.319 --> 00:05:49.040 at consulting firms like Deloitte, and you know, I thought 116 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:49.800 I was smug. 117 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:50.759 I thought I knew everything. 118 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:52.519 I was like, oh my god, these you know, closed 119 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:56.600 minded fundamentalists and these superstitious, magical thinkers. And then I 120 00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:59.399 had an experience that challenged that, and I knew if 121 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:03.120 I didn't invite that data. And I was just disclosed 122 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:07.800 minded and fundamentalist in my atheism as I saw the 123 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:11.199 religious world at the time. And I always joked that 124 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:14.279 that atheism, I think is a natural reaction to Catholic school, 125 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:17.639 including college. Right. 126 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:19.560 I kicked out after two weeks of Catholic school, So 127 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:22.519 I wouldn't know if all Wow filed that bill, but. 128 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:25.439 Several of my family members got kicked out of Catholic schools. 129 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:28.480 It's a badge of honor, it's a very special merit badge. 130 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:30.759 And I joked that I, you know, like I used 131 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:33.279 to back in my snug atheism, say I got out 132 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:36.040 early on good behavior, like it was prison or something. 133 00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:38.800 And I'm not Catholic. Now obviously I'm a shaman. But 134 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:42.360 it's been a real adventure and a real journey. Yeah, 135 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:45.560 and it was fueled by skepticism and curiosity. 136 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:48.360 Frank Rain, Well, the first hint that I got that 137 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:50.879 you were something different was when we first saw you. 138 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:55.160 You were not wearing feathers and bringing sat Before we 139 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:57.839 started recording, we talked about the difference between skepticism and 140 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:02.879 pragmatism or cynicism. It's important to note the difference, right, Yes, 141 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:05.079 the name of our show is a skeptic and physicians 142 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:07.360 for a reason. We always talk about the fact fact 143 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:11.399 that we're not the cynical metaphysicians. We're the skeptic metaphysicians 144 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:14.759 because we are open, but we need a little bit 145 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:16.399 more than just faith to go on things. 146 00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:16.680 Right. 147 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:17.800 So I think it's the same with you. 148 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:22.399 And nothing that I do is faith based, which again 149 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:27.000 sounds nonsense to people. I say, it's direct experience and 150 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:32.720 evidence based. Now that evidence isn't pure review, quantitative metrics evidence. 151 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:33.800 It's quantitative. 152 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:38.040 Yeah, thank thank you, And I'm humped about research that's 153 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:42.240 happening and it's it's really getting interesting. But yeah, when 154 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:45.680 I work, like I have a spiritual transformation coaching program 155 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:47.839 and I work one on one with people, and one 156 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:49.879 of the things we do is gather what I call data, 157 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:53.839 and that data is immersion, it's experiential. And then then 158 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:56.800 we go and we do research and then we test things. 159 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:00.160 We stress test them, we go into practice sessions, and 160 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:04.120 it's really a way for them to empower themselves, to 161 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:08.519 trust themselves, to be open minded, but also to use 162 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:12.160 discernment and what parts of this are like shiny ball syndrome, 163 00:08:12.279 --> 00:08:15.279 What parts of this are nonsense versus what's you know, 164 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:17.560 the gray, the messy middle, what part of this might 165 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:18.040 be real? 166 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:19.360 Yeah? 167 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:22.079 So would you say though that, I mean, it's not 168 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:24.240 faith based, but you have to have faith to believe 169 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:26.480 in some of the outcomes of the testing. 170 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:32.519 I don't I go in faith as in like yeah spiritual. Yeah. 171 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:34.759 I don't mean like yeah, like a religious faith, but 172 00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:38.559 just a belief. I mean, I think it's true for me. 173 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:42.480 It's more I'm open minded to the possibility and the data. 174 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:43.440 Better impress me. 175 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:46.519 For me to pay attention to it, and then and 176 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:48.639 then you know, I almost get belief and I go 177 00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:50.960 to knowing. That's kind of the word I use like 178 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:53.720 I know that that was a real experience for me, 179 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:57.080 and I think that that's unique to every individual. 180 00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:59.679 What you will know is like your thing. 181 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:01.840 And I don't think there's any way to convince another 182 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:06.120 of a arcane spiritual experience you had, right, you can 183 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:07.879 tell him about it, but it's. 184 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:10.879 An very interesting point, so that I'm dying to find 185 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:13.919 out what was it that happened to you that gave 186 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:14.759 you that knowing? 187 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:18.879 It's creepy. He gause, cool with creepy, creepy? 188 00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:19.559 Okay, great. 189 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.960 So I was working at a global real estate company 190 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:25.600 in my early twenties, living in a studio apartment in 191 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:28.440 what's called the Lincoln Park neighborhood, Chicago, and. 192 00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:31.039 It was full of interesting characters. 193 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:33.879 Shall we say it's buildings full of studio apartments generally 194 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:36.240 are and I'll leave it at that. I am happy 195 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:38.440 to be out of that building now. And I had 196 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:40.639 a neighbor down the hallway. He was actually Native American, 197 00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:43.639 unpart Native American, and he had a Filipino wife who 198 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:46.159 had moved to this country, and he was a drinker, 199 00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:48.279 and he was such a heavy drinker that he would 200 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:50.440 get alcohol delivered from a liquor store that was half 201 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:53.519 a block away, right, and so, and these are things 202 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:55.639 you just see living in buildings with other people like 203 00:09:55.639 --> 00:10:01.000 that delivery happening regularly. And there was one that I 204 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:04.519 came home and I felt kind of creepy. I don't 205 00:10:04.519 --> 00:10:07.440 know how to describe it, but just something was uneasy, 206 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:08.559 and I was like, double. 207 00:10:08.360 --> 00:10:10.240 Check the lock in the door before I went to bed. 208 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:13.279 And I remember being a little uncomfortable turning my light 209 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:16.879 off to go to bed that first night, second night 210 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:19.519 or second day rather, I wake up and there's people 211 00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:21.879 starting to gather outside of that department building and they 212 00:10:21.879 --> 00:10:23.879 look like they're related to the wife, and I go, oh, 213 00:10:23.879 --> 00:10:26.399 she's like having a family visit or family or union 214 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:27.200 family in town. 215 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:29.960 It's Chicago. People have family come stay with them and 216 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:30.919 go see the city. 217 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:34.240 Right. And that night when I went to bed, much 218 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:37.559 creepier feeling. And again, I'm an atheist. I don't believe 219 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:40.360 in anything, despite having tons of experiences in childhood that 220 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:41.600 I had since dismissed. 221 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:42.600 Is like a. 222 00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:45.679 Psychological reaction of my parents' divorce. You come up with 223 00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:50.159 all these really clever excuses and explanations. And I slept 224 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:52.120 with my light on that night, and I hadn't done 225 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:55.679 that since early childhood. Now the third night or the 226 00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:58.720 third day, there's tons of people in the hallway and whatever, 227 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:00.519 and I was like, I don't even know it's on anymore. 228 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:01.720 I got to get some sleep tonight. 229 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:05.279 So now now the it's starting to building tension, right, 230 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:08.440 And I'm laying in bed and I just didn't want 231 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:10.159 to go to bed. And I'm watching TV and I 232 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:12.200 my light on and I look over and I see 233 00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:15.600 a man's face. And what's weird of that is he 234 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:18.720 wasn't like beautiful as inattractive to me, but I was, 235 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:21.799 you know, like beautiful like a statue, like a marble 236 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:25.720 statue on the loof saying, like a perfect looking being. 237 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:29.000 Next thing I know, I feel something enter my mouth 238 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:31.200 and start going down my throat and I go to 239 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:34.600 say a word, and I hear a voice right out 240 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:40.559 of the exorcist come out of my throat. Oh sorry, 241 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:45.159 awake and God, thank God, you know Catholic church. 242 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:47.799 Hilarious. I started saying a Hail Mary. 243 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:50.200 I was like if there was a time, just instinct 244 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:54.200 or conditioning, programming, who knows what. And I felt it 245 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:57.320 exit my mouth and I looked around me in every 246 00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:00.200 cabinet door and this studio Perman had all of these 247 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:03.120 little doors and little French glass doors and cabinets. It 248 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:06.320 was actually really cute. They were all open at precise 249 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:09.440 and I need degree angle. And I called my mother 250 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:11.639 and I told her what happened, and she said, get 251 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.200 out of the apartment. And mind you, it's like midnight, 252 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:17.840 between midnight and one am. But we're in Chicago, so 253 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:20.600 there's a seven eleven open across the street, and I 254 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:24.399 knew it would be open, so I went there drank 255 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:27.720 horrible seven eleven coffee until sunrise. And it was summer, 256 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:29.639 so sunrise came early and I came back and there's 257 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:31.679 early in the morning, tons. 258 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:32.720 Of people outside that apartment. 259 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:36.799 And I said, finally, maybe because I was so banged 260 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:42.200 up and existentially onto logically really in shock, like that happened. 261 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:46.039 That's literal. If that's real, and that's literal, what else exists? 262 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:48.279 What does this mean for the world? I mean, even 263 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:50.039 like sitting in seven eleven and knowing like is this live? 264 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:54.360 We have war, like just a whole thing. And I said, 265 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:57.519 what's going on here? And she goes, oh, I forgot 266 00:12:57.559 --> 00:12:59.000 his name. I can't believe I forgot. 267 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:01.320 His name, but he had died. And she goes, and 268 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:03.200 everybody's coming to see his body. And I go, when 269 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:04.639 did he die? 270 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:08.080 And it was the night of that creepy the night 271 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:10.879 I started to get creeped out was the night he died. 272 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:16.399 And I instantly just knew again, not believe, but knowing. 273 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:19.279 I said, yeah, whatever that thing was, it was in him, 274 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:23.399 and it was looking for a new host, like a 275 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:24.200 parasite does. 276 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:26.120 I just knew it instinctively. 277 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.759 And I in that following day ran into other neighbors 278 00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:31.879 and asked them, like, you know, and by the way, 279 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:35.080 side note, I skipped over. Of course I screamed at them, 280 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:36.679 which is terrible because someone's dead. 281 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:38.759 But I lost my mind. I yelled at them. I said, 282 00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:41.919 a body is in this building. I called the city. 283 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:44.799 I was like, this is like, you can't body was 284 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:45.720 just still. 285 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:49.919 They a couple three three days. Nobody took it. 286 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.120 I mean no, no, no, because they were coming to 287 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:53.519 visit with him. 288 00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:55.120 I mean, this is like, I don't know what was 289 00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:59.120 going on A whole religiously that I'm unaware of. But 290 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:01.759 I talked to other neighbors, like on my floor and 291 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:05.840 other floors. They all had weird experiences, like literally in 292 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:07.919 all different walks of life, and everybody was kind of 293 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:11.080 gossiping about it and nightmares and this is like a 294 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:17.559 real event and that is that. Yeah, Yeah, that sparked 295 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:21.840 just the beginning of a real exploration and what I 296 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:26.320 would call like a spiritual journey for me and collecting 297 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.840 scavengern clues, reading books, working with shamans, going to classes, 298 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:34.840 you know, trying to get my bearings. And that really 299 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:39.279 drove me and continues to drive me. And it was 300 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:43.240 just the weirdest damn thing. And it was not subtle. 301 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:45.799 I wasn't asleep, just things that you know, you run 302 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:48.600 through your little checklist of could I have or couldn't 303 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:49.759 have been this or could have been that, And it 304 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:54.759 just was too the data points synced up too much, 305 00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:59.759 the timing the event two doors down from me, other neighbors, 306 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.480 and so I decided there's something to this, there really is, 307 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:08.519 and you know, went to shaman school eventually and started 308 00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:11.200 seeing clients myself. I'd been reading tarot cards since I 309 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:13.399 was nine years old, and not at that time because 310 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:16.559 you know, I was way too intellectual and important for 311 00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:19.399 such things. And now of course that yeah, brought all that, 312 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:23.279 all that got resurrected and really looked at a lot 313 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:25.000 of the work I was doing in totem as my 314 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:28.360 education as well, right, like so serving clients and things 315 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:31.159 like that, but really trying to you know, get to 316 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:33.919 the bottom of something that there's no bottom too, honestly, Like, 317 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:36.600 the more you learn, the less you know, for sure. 318 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:38.279 Yeah, we found that to be the case as well. 319 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:39.799 The more we learn, the more we have to learn, 320 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:41.240 the more we realize whatever. 321 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:44.559 Now you know why that list at the beginning when 322 00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:46.279 you introduced me is so goddamn long. 323 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:51.440 Ah No, But you know what, actually, if I had 324 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:53.360 known that story before, I might have introduced you not 325 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:57.159 the skeptical chaman, but the learer craft of spiritualism, because 326 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:03.039 puzzles and di scavenger and uh, that's pretty that's pretty amazing. 327 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:06.559 Something like that for a lot of people might not 328 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:10.480 jumpstart their exploration and might jump start their rush to 329 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:15.279 a priest. Yeah, all right, back to religion, Yeah, exactly, 330 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.399 So how did you manage to go in that direction? 331 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:19.200 Versus the other. 332 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:20.879 I don't really know. 333 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.159 I will say that as a kid, I was adamant 334 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:28.240 that spiritual things were real and I was very interested 335 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:30.399 in it, and I am would ask, you know, priests 336 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.240 and nuns a lot of questions and they just use 337 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:37.240 a lot of thought terminating cliches, right, And so nobody 338 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.039 really answered my questions. Nobody wanted to dig into it. 339 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:42.120 It's one of the reasons I refuse to get confirmed, 340 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:44.720 because to me, that's you know, you take a vow 341 00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:47.080 when you get confirmed to God, it's like you're getting 342 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:47.600 married to God. 343 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:49.759 And I was like, but nobody can answer my questions. 344 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:52.000 I don't really know what's going on here, and so 345 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:54.440 I think a part of me still didn't necessarily feel 346 00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:56.679 like that was going to be an authority of information 347 00:16:57.200 --> 00:16:57.960 that I could trust. 348 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:00.960 In isolation, my gym friends with Catholics. 349 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:04.079 I actually am friends with a Catholic exorcist and demonologist 350 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:06.400 who hates tarot. 351 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:08.680 Thanks all this is silly, but treats me with nothing 352 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:09.359 but respect. 353 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:13.559 By the way, is very friendly, very interesting coffee conversations. 354 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:17.519 Yes, actually they made a movie about him and his 355 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:19.880 life story. His name is Ralph Sarci and there's a 356 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:23.559 movie called Deliver Us from Evil with Eric Obanna plays him, 357 00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:25.680 and I think Olivia. 358 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:27.200 Isn't it sounds really familiar to me. 359 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:29.279 Yeah, And he's a character you used to be in 360 00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:32.799 New York City police sergeant. So he's got a bit 361 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:35.519 of an edge to him. He's covered in tattoos, he's yells, 362 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:36.119 he's got like. 363 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:38.000 Angry gym teacher energy, which I love. 364 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.720 I have a lot of affection for him, and I'll 365 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:43.240 join some of his Facebook lives and listen to his 366 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:47.039 his you know, sort of messed up apocalyptic Bible study, right, 367 00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:50.960 because it's actually interesting. And he's theologically literate in a 368 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:53.200 way that people when I was a kid asking questions 369 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:57.720 were not. And so my thing is, you know, the 370 00:17:57.759 --> 00:17:59.799 reason I gravitated to Shaman is a number one I 371 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:03.680 am Native American, not entirely, but I am. And number 372 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:09.640 two is it's the most open minded field or like methodology, 373 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:11.519 I guess you could call it, where like we take 374 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:14.000 information from wherever it. 375 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:15.799 The source is irrelevant. 376 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:18.240 So I'll learn things from a Catholic, I'll learn things 377 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:20.680 from a Muslim gentleman. 378 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:22.119 I'll learn something from an Orthodox. 379 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:24.240 Do you actually went to spurt us in Chicago learn 380 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:28.519 Biblical Hebrew in part to dig into this stuff. So 381 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:33.799 we are intensely heterodox with that, and there's no elitism 382 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:36.519 about where the information comes from. And I just for me, 383 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:38.119 that's the system that works for me. 384 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:42.039 But you do a lot of looking into the WO 385 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:46.759 for lack of term, because you don't tolerate the type 386 00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:50.079 of WO that is set up just to take somebody's money. 387 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:55.039 I was blown away by this when I first started 388 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:57.599 dipping my toe into teaching and things like that where 389 00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:59.160 you know, because I worked in corpor and I was like, 390 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:02.279 I just assume that where I worked, everybody was like 391 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:06.319 openly a demon and really like money motivated, not necessarily 392 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:08.160 bad way, but that's sort of corporation companies. 393 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:10.400 That is the case. I did mention they argument with 394 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:13.720 my boss, right, I'm sorry, They say, sorry. 395 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:15.759 Boss, you know, And I just thought, well, all these 396 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.279 people doing reiki or who owned Yoka Studios, they're going 397 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.920 to be the nice people, like, they're going to be 398 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:23.480 open and trustworthy and sincere, and they're going to have 399 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:25.799 integrity because they have these incredible tools and they're like me, 400 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:31.119 and they're pursuing true massive naive assumption. You know what 401 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:33.519