WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.599 --> 00:00:08.400 Hey, folks, welcome back to another episode of Ruby Rogues. 2 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:11.880 So I'm gonna let y'all know, since this is the 3 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:16.039 second Ruby Rogues episode in a row, that is just 4 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:19.359 me let y'all know kind of what's been going on. 5 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:23.960 So in uh, and then I'm gonna talk a bit 6 00:00:24.039 --> 00:00:27.600 about Miniswan and the community and things like that, because 7 00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:29.719 I'm seeing a lot of things that are concerning me there. 8 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:32.039 Let me jump in and talk a little bit first 9 00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:35.960 about just where things are. So I wound up getting 10 00:00:35.960 --> 00:00:39.799 a full time working at Price Picks in March, and 11 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:43.359 that has taken up a lot of time and and 12 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:45.560 so I've put a lot of effort in there. And 13 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:48.000 between that and all the stuff going on with my 14 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:52.600 kids in school and and all that stuff, I haven't 15 00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:54.920 been as good about scheduling guests to come on the show. 16 00:00:55.560 --> 00:01:00.679 And Valentino got a new job as well. He's not 17 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:04.719 a doctor anymore, and so anyway, it's just there's been 18 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:06.599 a lot going on, and so we haven't been as 19 00:01:06.680 --> 00:01:09.400 diligent about recording. But I want to get back into this. 20 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:13.599 I actually intend talked about this on another show just 21 00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:18.480 out Ruby Tip of the Day, do some stuff about 22 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:22.000 AI and Ruby and so keep an eye out for 23 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:26.840 that stuff. But yeah, so there will be an episode 24 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:29.439 every week, even if it's just me for the foreseeable future. 25 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:31.760 But I have started inviting guests, and so we're going 26 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:33.159 to see if we can get some of the folks 27 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:36.319 on who are talking about interesting stuff or doing interesting 28 00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:41.840 stuff in the Ruby community. In the meantime, I wanted 29 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.439 to talk today a little bit about miniswan. So if 30 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:49.079 you're newer to the Ruby community or I haven't heard 31 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:52.920 the term before, Miniswuan stands for matts is nice, and 32 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:56.319 so we are nice. And when I joined the Ruby community, 33 00:01:56.359 --> 00:02:00.159 that was kind of a mantra that all cited as 34 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:02.560 one of the things they really loved about the Ruby 35 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:06.079 community was that they would join the community and people 36 00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:09.080 would embrace them and invite them to be part of things, 37 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:11.719 and would be excited to have them around and would 38 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:15.479 help them out and things like that. And over the year, 39 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:20.280 feels like some people have need to embrace that, and 40 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:23.520 we've also had other elements of the community that have, 41 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:27.919 let's just put in a friendly way and say they haven't. 42 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:31.000 Some of this is down to kind of the political 43 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:34.599 climate that we find ourselves in right so some people 44 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:36.599 just don't want to associate with people on the other 45 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:38.840 side of the political aisle, at least here in the US. 46 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:43.479 I have tried to keep my politics out of the 47 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:46.719 shows for the most part. I mean it's cropped up. 48 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:50.719 I got canceled on Twitter for it in twenty nineteen. 49 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:55.319 But for the most part, you're not listening to hear 50 00:02:55.479 --> 00:02:59.120 what I think about social issues. You're not here to 51 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:04.120 hear what I have to say about Utah or US politicians. Right, 52 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:08.280 You're not here to get my take on some of 53 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:10.800 these other issues. Right. You're here because we all love Ruby, 54 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:14.240 and we all want to level up with Ruby. We 55 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:18.000 all want to learn to write code better. We all 56 00:03:18.039 --> 00:03:22.599 want to, you know, remain employed. I'm trying to think, 57 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:24.400 you know what other things you know, write code that 58 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:27.960 we love, build businesses, all of that stuff, Right, And 59 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:30.960 so if I'm talking about that stuff and I'm providing 60 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:34.360 you with things that help you with those areas, then 61 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:39.039 I feel like that's you know, that that's the powerful thing, 62 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:43.120 that's that's where the payoff is. But if I'm out 63 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:44.960 there and I'm saying, well, I don't want to talk 64 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:48.319 to so and so because they don't align with me politically, 65 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:53.080 then that's not in the spirit of Minnsuan, But it's 66 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:55.680 also what does that have to do with you and 67 00:03:55.719 --> 00:03:58.680 I loving Ruby and having that in common? And so 68 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:01.719 let's just speak about this for a minute, because I 69 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:03.479 want to talk about a few areas where I'm seeing 70 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:05.960 this crop ups. One of them is there's a fairly 71 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:10.960 large Ruby discord out there that I've seen them ban 72 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:17.079 or otherwise pile on people because of their stances that 73 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:21.279 they've taken on various things. And you know, usually it's 74 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:23.519 not something has to do with the Ruby community, right, 75 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:26.079 I mean, if so, let's back up for a minute, Right, 76 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:29.319 So last week I talked about the situation with Ruby 77 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:33.120 e gems and Budler and things like that, which, by 78 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:37.040 the way, apparently the ruby gems and Butler repos have 79 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:40.279 moved over to the Ruby organization instead of Ruby Central, right, 80 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:43.079 So Ruby Core team's going to manage those, which is awesome, 81 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:45.319 right because it kind of takes a lot of this 82 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:48.759 out of the hands of people that some of the 83 00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:51.600 community doesn't trust anymore. And the other thing is is 84 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:54.920 that they're kind of more core to the Ruby core 85 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:59.199 than they are to the Ruby Ruby Central can hopefully 86 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:01.560 just hopefully just can continue to maintain ruby gems dot 87 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:04.439 org and you know, we can tamp down some of 88 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:08.000 the concerns there, right, so then they can just be 89 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:10.279 good stewards of that, they can keep it running and 90 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:15.439 everybody can be happy and move along. Right. But yeah, 91 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:19.040 so we've seen a lot of anger and frustration and concern, right, 92 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:22.959 and to my thinking, right, a lot of that is 93 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:27.199 appropriate to our community because it's like, hey, you know, 94 00:05:27.319 --> 00:05:32.519 we saw Andre log onto those servers when he shouldn't have, right, 95 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:35.480 and so we can express concern about that. Right now. 96 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:37.759 I'm not going after him for anything that has to 97 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:40.920 do with anything outside of the Ruby community, because that's 98 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:44.160 not really relevant to what we're talking about. But I 99 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:47.160 can express concern over whether or not I feel like 100 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:50.199 I can trust the guy based on his behavior, Right, 101 00:05:52.079 --> 00:05:53.839 you know, look at some of the other things that 102 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:57.240 are going on out there and recognize that, you know, 103 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:02.800 if somebody's not being a good steward of the gem 104 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:05.920 that they write, right, and so that they'll open up 105 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:09.920 security vulnerability or you know, there's a team out there 106 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:14.079 that maintains a framework or something you use, right, and 107 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:19.800 you you find that they're hero days and then they're 108 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:22.319 not taking right. So all of those things I feel 109 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:25.279 like are appropriate for us to call out and say, hey, 110 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:30.560 look right, you're not you're not being a responsible actor community. 111 00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:39.800 As far as ideas and issues and practice go, the 112 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:44.079 community has a reasonable expectation that you will uphold. Right. 113 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:47.199 But again, a lot of that really just boils down 114 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:51.879 to the code and things like that now into personal conduct. 115 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:55.399 I also, I don't I'm not opposed to saying, hey, 116 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:59.800 look you know uh Miniswan, for example, we're going to 117 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:01.759 try each other with respect, We're going to be kind 118 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:04.399 to each other, We're gonna we're going to help each 119 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:07.560 other where we can, right, and having those be values 120 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:14.959 that we appropriately affect within the community. Right. And so yeah, 121 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:20.600 I see Coft right where it says, hey, don't don't 122 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:25.439 treat people poorly because of their sexual orientation or this 123 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:29.399 or that or the other. Right, And I would like 124 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:32.079 to add political leanings to that. Right, So we don't 125 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:37.279 discriminate people, we don't bully people, we don't mistreat people. 126 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:41.360 We don't ban people because they think differently from us, 127 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:44.920 or because they behave differently from us. Now, if you're 128 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:49.079 coming into my community and you're being a total jerk off, right, 129 00:07:49.240 --> 00:07:53.560 You're you're just mistreating people, and you know that does 130 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:57.720 maybe reflect you know, some value that you hold. Then yeah, 131 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:00.120 that's behavior that I don't have to tolerate. And I 132 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:03.639 can say no, you're out right, but the reality is 133 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:06.279 is then I have that code of conduct to fall 134 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:09.040 back on and say, you should have known that if 135 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:14.120 you started mistreating people, I was going to kick you out. 136 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:16.199 I want to call out one thing in particular. So 137 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:18.439 I was at a Rocky Mountain Ruby conference a few 138 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:22.319 weeks ago, and there were a couple of talks where 139 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:25.480 they talked about their communities, and I'm going, yeah, and 140 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:27.079 then I love that, right, I love that, Hey, you 141 00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:31.199 know we've got this library or this you know. One 142 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:34.960 of them was Hanami and dry RB, right, and they 143 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:38.960 do cool stuff, interesting work. But the guy up there said, yeah, 144 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:41.919 and we put together this community. And then he basically said, 145 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:45.759 and I'm gonna use some politically charged language here again, 146 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:47.720 I see it from both sides, and so I'll call 147 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:50.200 it out from the other side in a minute. But 148 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:53.840 you know, they basically said no Nazis, transfoms, or fat 149 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:58.639 phobes or fascists right in the channel, and I was 150 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:02.320 sitting there thinking to myself, well, how does somebody know 151 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:07.879 if they meet your definition of a Nazi, transphobe or fascist? Right? 152 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:10.440 You know. On the other side, you know a lot 153 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:14.440 of times we hear what snowflakes or libtards or you know, 154 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.320 things like that, and again, you know, not helpful, right, 155 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.120 And again it is down to, hey, you know what 156 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:24.320 kind of people do we want? And for me, it 157 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:26.320 has a whole lot more to do with your behavior 158 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:30.399 in the community. Right, So just to go back to 159 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:35.480 the nazi and transphobe and fascist for minerals, those terms, right, 160 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:38.960 So what does define a Nazi? Like? How do you 161 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:43.519 how do you determine if somebody who joins your community 162 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:52.000 meets that definition and is not welcome? Right? As you know, 163 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:55.240 I see some people and it seems like they would 164 00:09:55.279 --> 00:09:58.679 categorize that as you know, maybe people who voted for 165 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:05.200 Donald Trump, or people who have conservative politically means, or 166 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:10.120 who support Republican candidates in any way. But what I 167 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:11.919 find is that there are a lot of people out 168 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:15.480 there that I talk to that Donald Trump kind of 169 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:18.360 drives him nuts, but they voted for the guy because 170 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.240 they thought that the economics would be better, or maybe 171 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:26.200 they don't buy into some of the premises or messages 172 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:27.919 where people are trying to make him out to be 173 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:32.440 you know, hateful or this or that or the other, right, 174 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:35.120 and they're like, well, no, I see him doing the 175 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:39.120 things that you're calling out as evil for reasons that 176 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:45.399 I think are reasonable. And so to me, the concern 177 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:48.679 over the idea of calling somebody out as a Nazi 178 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:53.279 is that what you're saying is is that fundamentally they 179 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:58.399 want to harm people of the specific race or religion, right, 180 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:01.679 or that you know, they're looking and to some kind 181 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:05.519 of purity with the Aryan purity thing that the Nazis 182 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:08.240 did or something like that, and so, and it's got 183 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:12.080 this historical context and so it it it doesn't have 184 00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:16.919 a good definition. And if you're concerned with, okay, well 185 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:20.159 you know these people have some issue with some other 186 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:22.399 group of people, well then just call that out in 187 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:25.840 your you know, in your code of conduct. And instead 188 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:28.840 of saying Nazis, say look, we don't mistreat people based 189 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:32.559 on race, we don't mistreat people based on religion. Right. 190 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:35.840 It's the same thing with transphobes, right. So the term 191 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:39.279 I mean, it's it's a little more directed, because if 192 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:42.480 you're mistreating people because they're transgender, right, and I don't 193 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:45.679 think anybody gets behind that, or at least no reasonable 194 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:48.639 people do, right, I think again, going back to Minnisuan, 195 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:54.559 we want people to feel welcome, you know, just to 196 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:57.559 put kind of a finer point on it, right. I'm 197 00:11:57.600 --> 00:11:59.519 a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter 198 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:03.399 day Saints. A lot of people call us Mormons, right, 199 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:10.279 and the church specifically teaches that transgender surgeries and transgender 200 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:14.759 stuff is just you know, it's not okay, it's not 201 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:18.440 in line with what God teaches us. Right now. The 202 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:21.919 church is also pretty explicit about, hey, look, we're kind 203 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:24.679 of people who don't believe what we believe, and we're 204 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:27.919 kind of people who you know, don't act in line 205 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:30.480 with our beliefs. Right. Another one of our beliefs is 206 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:33.840 that we don't drink alcohol or coffee or tea. And 207 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:38.559 you know, again, I don't go and you know, shun 208 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:41.840 people because they drink alcohol, right, just like I don't 209 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:45.799 go and shun people who are transgender. A couple of 210 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:48.639 the shows on this network, including Ruby Rogues, have had 211 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:55.600 transgender hosts, and you know, they were great hosts. They 212 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:59.960 talked about stuff they knew. There's stuff they were you know, 213 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:04.600 knowledgeable and friendly and helpful, and that's what I wanted 214 00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:07.320 in a host and so I had them around. Right now, 215 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:09.600 do am I going to sign off on their lifestyle 216 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:14.000 and say that that's the right way to live? No? Right, 217 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:16.480 because I don't believe it. But am I going to 218 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:21.039 mistreat them? No? Why? Because they obviously have a different 219 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:23.639 value system than I do, and so they're going to 220 00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:26.320 make those decisions based on whatever it is that they believe. 221 00:13:27.159 --> 00:13:32.960 And you know, and so we can have discussions about 222 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:36.759 what we believe is fundamental truth without beating each other 223 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:40.360 up verbally and without mistreating people and still walk away 224 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:43.960 as friends. And that's a lot of what's in the 225 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.600 spirit of Miniswan. But you know, if somebody doesn't want 226 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:47.879 to talk about it, I'm going to I'm not going 227 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:49.679 to force them to talk about it. I don't have 228 00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:52.519 to write. I have plenty of stuff going on in 229 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:54.480 my life to where I don't need to worry about 230 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.559 what they're doing. Right, And you know, if it's my 231 00:13:57.679 --> 00:13:59.519 kids or somebody else that I have that kind of 232 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:02.639 a relationhi ship with, then I can have that conversation 233 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:04.840 with them, but I have that kind of relationship with 234 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:09.120 them too, and so I just I get really frustrated 235 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.440 with this. The other one is fascist, right, And again, 236 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:15.879 you know it's like, you know, I think it's kind 237 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:21.039 of become this code for authoritarian authoritarian or you know, 238 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:25.000 somebody who kind of moves a little bit beyond what 239 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:30.120 has been the norm and does things that makes people uncomfortable. 240 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.559 And what I again, what I want to push on 241 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:37.080 there is, you know, I would be much more comfortable 242 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:40.960 if we're calling out the behaviors that we don't want 243 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:42.720 to see, right. And so it's like, again, you know, 244 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:44.679 you're not going to do these kinds of things. You're 245 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:47.960 not going to attack these kinds of people, at least 246 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:50.960 within our community right now. If you're going out and 247 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.799 supporting other political movements or you're speaking in public or 248 00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:56.960 things like that, then you know, do whatever you want. 249 00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:00.799 But within the community, if if you're going to be 250 00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:04.519 mistreating these people, then you're not welcome, right, And and 251 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:08.960 I would rather make that distinction then go off into 252 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.840 this other stuff, right. And it's the same thing for 253 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:16.440 going the other way, right. So I mean, I'll confess 254 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:23.600 that I'm very politically and socially conservative, right. So, and 255 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:26.639 I talk to people that kind of on my side 256 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:28.840 of the aisle quite a bit because I'm involved in 257 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:32.600 politics here in Utah, and some of them make out 258 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:37.360 that well, if these you know, liberal people weren't such morons, 259 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:40.720 they would understand how this stuff works. And I look 260 00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:43.000 at them and I go, well, look, you know, the 261 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:45.080 thing is is that I know a lot of liberal 262 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:49.960 people who are really really intelligent people, right, and they 263 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:54.720 care deeply about other people, and they're they're looking for 264 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:58.559 solutions to these places where they see people suffer. And 265 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:02.720 so I can't just write them off as idiots, right, 266 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:04.559 because I know that they're not. I know that they're 267 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:07.559 intelligent people. I know that they have, you know, some 268 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:09.679 values that I share, right, because I don't want to 269 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:13.559 see people suffer either. And so for me, I have 270 00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:16.679 to look at it and go, Okay, well, then what 271 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:19.559 are the fundamental things that are different between me and 272 00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:22.879 them and what we believe? Right? What do I believe 273 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:24.879 that they don't or what do they believe that I don't? 274 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:30.600 That fundamentally shifts the argument for them, right, placing more 275 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:33.320 weight on than I am. What things are they hearing? 276 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.919 That I'm not hearing what things am I hearing that 277 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:38.799 they're not hearing, right, And if we can get down 278 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:40.759 to that, then it starts to make sense. And I 279 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:43.960 can see the a, the humanity and the other people, 280 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.320 and B understand that, you know what, they may vote 281 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:50.519 different from me and may vote for things that I 282 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:53.360 think are scary. Right, It's like, hey, look, you know, 283 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:56.279 if we go all the way down that road, you know, 284 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.960 talk about your tutalitarianism or authoritarianism. I think we get 285 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:05.839 way down that road and it gets freaky scary. But 286 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.480 I can see where they're coming from with that stuff, 287 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:10.640 and then we can have a conversation about it, and 288 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:13.559 I don't have to hate them for doing things that, 289 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:17.599 you know, enable some of these movements that I honestly 290 00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:21.720 think are evil, you know, because at the end of 291 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:24.640 the day, yeah, there may be somebody up the chain 292 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:27.240 that's giving them bad information on purpose to gain power, 293 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:31.000 or maybe the people up the chain believe it too. Right. 294 00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:33.000 I think there are both kinds out there. I think 295 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:36.319 they're both kinds on both sides or all sides, I guess, 296 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:39.319 because sometimes it's not a two sided thing. But at 297 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:41.519 the end of the day, right, we need to recognize 298 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:43.920 that there are reasons why people behave the way that 299 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:46.839 they do. And so if you come back to this, well, 300 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:50.759 Nazis because through Trump, right, And the thing is is, 301 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:53.119 I know, like I said before, I know a lot 302 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:56.119 of people who voted for a lot of reasons, and 303 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.000 a lot of those reasons have nothing to do with 304 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.519 hating a particular group. They just had specific concerns about 305 00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:03.480 the way the country was going and how that affected 306 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:07.119 their lives, and so they voted that way. And a 307 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:10.200 lot of people are centrist enough to where in the 308 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:14.039 next election they may vote the other way. And that's 309 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:18.720 all understandable. But you know, demonizing people as Nazis is 310 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:22.240 just not helpful, especially when you're not getting into the 311 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:26.000 nitty gritty of Okay, the things that I specifically think 312 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:28.160 are evil and we're not going to tolerate those in 313 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.279 our community. I want to get into another one, and 314 00:18:31.319 --> 00:18:34.640 I'm sure I'm definite with some people here, and that's 315 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:42.440 David d So, David says a lot of stuff. I 316 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:47.960 could say that about a number of people, public people, 317 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:50.559 but he says a lot of stuff, and to be honest, 318 00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:53.759 a lot of the things that he says I agree 319 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:56.279 with me, will go as far as he does on something, 320 00:18:57.119 --> 00:18:59.279 or you know, maybe I have a little bit more 321 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:04.240 nuanced than he does. In a lot of cases. I 322 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:08.119 think he's diagnosing a lot of the in the world 323 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:12.079 at large, and he does right and and out on 324 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:15.519 a lot of issues in the world at large. Now 325 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.359 I want step back because when I see him at 326 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:26.359 like Ruby Rails World and other Ruby, he expresses a 327 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:30.480 strong worldview, but it's almost always within the realm of 328 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:33.759 the Ruby community and what's going on with Ruby or rails, 329 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:36.319 and so you know, if you want to go watch 330 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:40.680 a Rail's World keynote, more power to you, right, don't 331 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:42.720 like his worldview on other stuff, then don't go read 332 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:47.519 his blog. And I don't know. Maybe I don't have 333 00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:51.279 a problem separating things that way, and and maybe other 334 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:57.640 folks do. But honestly, it's it's just I get I 335 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:01.839 get so worried sometimes that we get so wrapped up 336 00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:04.599 in this. And there are folks that tried to kind 337 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:10.680 of stage this boycott of anything involving DHH because of 338 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.759 his stances on things. And again, you know, I think 339 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:20.519 we have all been richly benefited by having things like 340 00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:23.680 Ruby on Rails and the work that he's done out 341 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:26.960 there in the world. And I think we should all 342 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.680 support him when he does the right thing with Ruby 343 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:32.480 and rails, and then if you want to go and 344 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:36.319 fight the other political battles on the other fronts where 345 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:39.799 you don't agree with him, that that's fine. But I 346 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:45.039 don't understand the point of shunning somebody like DHH based 347 00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:48.759 on his wider worldview when most of the time when 348 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:52.279 he's working within the technology industry, he's either calling out 349 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.799 problems that specifically exist there or he's you know, otherwise, 350 00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:00.400 you know, he's kind of stayed in his lane. And 351 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:03.039 then when he steps out into the wider world of hey, 352 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:05.640 there are these other concerns or political movements or things 353 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:09.599 like that, you know, it doesn't have to bleed back 354 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:15.440 into the technology arena. And so you know, again, I 355 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:20.720 just I want to talk about just how we maintain 356 00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:26.640 that idea of accepting and understanding other people instead of 357 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.119 shunning them because they hold some kind of different view 358 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:34.200 from what we care about what we think about. So 359 00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:38.440 I just when it comes right down to it, what 360 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:42.480 I'd like to see, if anything, is that we have 361 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:44.880 more conversations that we reach out to more people that 362 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:48.720 we open up, open our minds and open our hearts 363 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.319 to people and just say, okay, look, you know, you 364 00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:56.079 clearly believe something different from me. Let's talk about why 365 00:21:56.119 --> 00:22:01.039 that is. Right. You you clearly value different things from me, 366 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.000 or at least value some things more strongly than I do. 367 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:06.720 You know, let's talk about why that is. You know, 368 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.599 why do you do the things you do? Why do 369 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:11.960 I do the things I do? And if we can 370 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:15.400 break things down to that point and then have the conversations. 371 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:17.720 I'm not saying that we come to agree. That isn't 372 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:22.079 necessarily you know where I think we necessarily end up. 373 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:26.559 I have plenty of friends where we have these conversations 374 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:30.400 and we walk away still friends and still disagreeing on stuff. Right. 375 00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:35.319 But I want the community to be open to people, 376 00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:37.680 and I want people to feel like they can come 377 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:41.400 and they can express themselves in ways that are beneficial 378 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:44.039 to the community. And sure, you know, if somebody comes 379 00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:47.319 in and they start spouting off about, you know, some 380 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:50.079 political thing here or there that has nothing to do 381 00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:52.839 with community. I also have a problem with people saying, hey, look, 382 00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:57.279 you know, we understand that people strongly disagree in these areas, 383 00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:01.160 and so that belongs to it different discord channel, or 384 00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:04.240 that belongs in a different forum, or that belongs in it, 385 00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:06.480 you know, and so you can go and have those 386 00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:10.160 arguments somewhere else, but here we're going to talk about 387 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:14.400 stuff that is relevant and matters to the Ruby and 388 00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:19.240 Ruby on Rails communities, and we can kind of open 389 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:21.759 that up. So a few things that I've seen that 390 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:24.000 are encouraging to me. So one of them is Greg 391 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:27.440 Molnar opened up another Ruby discord and I'll put the 392 00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:31.400 link in the show notes. But he's been pretty explicit 393 00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:34.039 that he's taking all comers and they're not going to 394 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:36.880 ban people for having points of view, which I think 395 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:40.160 is awesome. Right, And so I think if you show 396 00:23:40.279 --> 00:23:43.839 up and you start picking on people or bullying people 397 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.119 or causing problems, then he'll probably throw you out, and 398 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:49.839 he probably has every reason to do that. But if 399 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:52.480 you come in and it turns out that you have 400 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.559 pretty strong opinions on this social issue or that political issue, 401 00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:01.119