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Speaker 1: All right, So I'm glad actually that all of these

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Roman Catholics are in a tizzy over the obvious massive

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failure of Tim Fordan in the debate. First of all,

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all three of us were loud and interrupted, and these

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hippocrites ack like I was the only one that was

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loud and interrupted, which is just a ridiculous double standard.

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Everybody did it, including Temple. It was an informal debate. Obviously,

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people lie and act like I've never done formal debates,

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that there aren't civil formal debates. There are dozens of them.

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But we also do the uncivil informal blood sports style

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as well. And so what amazes me is just the

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consistent just gas lighting and lying that Roman Catholics do

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no matter what. They're actually incapable of reading comprehension, of

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just basic honesty about any of the topics that come up.

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And just like a bunch of feminists or women on

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the internet, the only thing that they care about is

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the optics, how it makes them feel and who hurts

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their feelies or whatever. It's nothing to do with the content.

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None of these people will actually stick to the content.

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And then anytime you invite them to come discuss, they

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whine and complain as if you're mean, which, by the way,

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is a self like gay as hell to complain. But

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beyond that, it's not true that you don't get a

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chance or an opportunity to come make your case. You

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only get interrupted when you don't make arguments, and when

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you shift into various fallacies or various straw men. That's it.

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It's pretty easy. We have atheists, Muslims, Protestants, Catholics they

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call in all the time. I've done so for years.

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If you could just simply coherently make an argument, it's

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very easy to make your case here, and I welcome it.

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I offer it all the time. And what's funny is,

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out of ten reven cathoy shit talkers, none of them

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will actually come debate their arguments. All they want to

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do is debate your debating, debate your meanness, your style,

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or what you did bad. Now you'll notice too, that

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any moral qualm they have about me, when they pile on,

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they let loose ten times more venom than I letless

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in any of these conversations. But it's okay for them

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to do it, but not for me. So it's all

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just insane levels of democracy, idiocy, childishness, stupidity, and that

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it just never ends. So let's get to the actual issues. Kevin. Kevin,

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when you commented, you commented to me about what Vatican

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two says about Hindus, and I replied to that, and

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then you said all this other stuff about Muslims, which

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I never even replied to. I didn't even listen or

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look at any of your comments about Islam. So why

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did you then lie as if I deflected and I

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was misleading people. That's why I blocked you, is because

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it's a total dishonesty. I made one reply to one

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of your comments, gotta I'm me and Kevin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't lie. I'm not really sure what you're

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talking about. I said, Vaticant two does not say Hindus

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worship the same God or.

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Speaker 3: The one Truth.

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Speaker 1: And I did I reply to that. You did reply

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to that, okay, And so that was it, right?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: That was one post and then I reposted or whatever

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you yeah, quote what Twitter calls it. I quoted a

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second post. This one was not about hindu it was

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about Muslims. And then I made an argument from Romans one.

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You commented about Hindu use again, so that was a

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totally different context.

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Speaker 1: But I was obviously still replying to the original comment

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because I'm talking about Hinduism.

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Speaker 3: Pretty it wasn't pretty obvious. It was not obvious from

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you at all.

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Speaker 1: If I'm talking about if I'm talking about Hinduism, is

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it not obvious that I'm still talking about that post?

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Speaker 3: It's not. I mean the post the second post was about.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if I'm going to respond to somebody, I'm

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not gonna respond to them about something.

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Speaker 1: Does Vatican does Vatican who actually say that? Say what?

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Your first comment was that Vatican.

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Speaker 3: Two doesn't say that, right, it does not say what.

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Speaker 1: It does not say what my original comment said about

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throwing Hindus into the mix. That's right. They do not.

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Speaker 3: They do not worship the same God.

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Speaker 1: And yet what term does Vatican two use in no

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sat It says they. You do read it.

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Speaker 3: I'm carrying my my daughter me read it.

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Speaker 1: You can't. You don't know what it says.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to butcher it says.

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Speaker 1: It says they. Finally they in Hinduism they value the

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moral life and worship God. Excuse me, let excuse me,

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that's the uh, let me go back up. That's the

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Muslim comment, it says, let me pull it up. I

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got a different spot. That was the wrong comment. Okay,

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here it is. I'll read the whole section, so you

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know with the context. I thinks it says thus in Hinduism,

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so we're talking about in the religion, men contemplate the

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divine mystery and express it through an exhaustible abundance of

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myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom for

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the anguish of our human condition, either through asthetic practices

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or profound meditation, or a flight to God with love

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and trust.

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Speaker 2: Is that the same thing it says about Muslims that

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they worship the One True God?

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Speaker 1: Does it? What's what? What? When it's uh? What does

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this say about God? What? What does it?

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Speaker 3: Does it use the proper it does? Does that mean

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it's the one True God? What?

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Speaker 5: What?

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Speaker 1: Which one is? It?

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Speaker 3: Does that mean it's the one True?

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Speaker 1: How many gods? How many gods do you believe in?

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How many do you capitalize?

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Speaker 3: Well, the Hindus believe in many gods.

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Speaker 1: How many do you capitalize?

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Speaker 3: I mean I only talk about one usually, but.

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Speaker 1: How many do you capitalize?

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Speaker 3: You're falsely inferring that because do you capitalize?

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Speaker 2: I think you're falsely in capital you're.

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Speaker 1: So, how many gods are there that you capitalize? Anybody?

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The ones that you believe in? Right? Right?

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Speaker 2: But I think you're falsely assuming they're That means is

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that they're worship the One True God.

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Speaker 1: Why is it capitalized? You liar?

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Speaker 3: I'm not lying, Jay, Why is it capitalized?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. You don't know exactly, I don't know. Well, yeah,

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you don't know.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean I can make a property, I can

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make a proper guest without jump into conclusions that that

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they worship the same God as you know Muslims, or

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as Christians or as.

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Speaker 1: So you think Muslims, you think Muslims and Christians do

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worship the same God?

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Speaker 3: Of course that's what the document says, Jay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, thank you. So it's not what Tim Gordon said.

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Speaker 3: Right, I'm not aware of anything. I don't follow Tim Gordon.

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I have no idea what.

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Speaker 1: Okay, right, Muslims and Christians worship the same God when

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Muslims don't acknowledge the Trinity?

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Speaker 2: But why are you changing topics? Let's stick to the

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Hindu So.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to go there were brought up Muslims.

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We're gonna go. We're gonna go.

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Speaker 3: We haven't finished hind.

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Speaker 1: You brought them up because you just said you don't

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know why it's capital g. Now we're going to go

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to your other argument because you don't know. So tell

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me how do Muslims worship the once your God when

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they don't believe in Christ or the Trinity?

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Speaker 3: Talking about Hindu?

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Speaker 1: All right, so this is why this is what you

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guys do. You just said, you just said about the

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Hindu you don't know. You said, I don't know, you, bro?

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Did you say I don't know?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't. I can't read into the end why

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they capitalize the words in God?

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Speaker 1: And you don't know. So we're gonna move on. And

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you lost that point, We're gonna move on.

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Speaker 3: I haven't lost any point.

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Speaker 4: You still have.

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Speaker 1: I don't know you still your argument? Argument is you're done, dude.

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This is why you're a liar. You're a liar. Get

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out of here. That's why these people are discussing liars.

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It's Brosey and you noticed he would not go to

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the Muslim argument. It's exactly how this is gonna I

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told you. So this is what these people do. They

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make a big stink. They don't even actually have any

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capability of dealing with the argument. It's all that I'm bad.

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And then when we get to the argument, they lose

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and they flounder and they don't know and they don't

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want to talk about it because they're dishonest. That's my point.

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Go ahead, h browser, it was going on, Jae, Can

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you hear me? Yep?

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Speaker 6: All right, cool, Yeah, it's gonna be quick, man. I

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just wanted to say, you know, just with this, this

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small bit of engagement I've been doing with these guys

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for the past I don't know, like a couple of months.

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I genuinely I don't understand how you're still doing this

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ship man.

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Speaker 7: It's that.

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Speaker 6: Do you remember earlier that that guy under one of

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your posts that I called out for that for that too, Kokoy?

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Absolutely yes, yeah, so so he did. He took a

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while to reply. Once I saw that he did reply,

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he completely ignored what it was that I was saying

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in the reply, So I just let it go. There

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was there was no point in your reply. And then

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he went to then he went to my page and

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then he uh he he left the reply under under

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the picture that I shared of yours, saying that you

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would smoke you were smoking Aiden and Tim in the debate,

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and I was just from a couple of days ago

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when he said something and he completely ignored what I

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said regarding the different ecclesiologies again, and he asked me,

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he said, uh, he he brought up something that, you know,

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like something that Carill has said in the past. He

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brought up Bartholomew again and uh fuck, who's the last

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patriarch of what of John? John of Antioch? He he

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brought it, He brought up three and he's he's asking me, Okay,

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so are they accumulated? Like how do you how do

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you completely ignore what I said under the post reply

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to that, completely ignored again under something that under something

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from days ago, and then leave another damn reply Like

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these people are so fucking dishonest. Man.

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Speaker 1: That's crazy, man, It's crazy. So the thing with the

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Orthodox patriarchs, the page is just a bishop with canonical privileges.

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It's not some it's not a little pope like they

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think that patriarchs are like many popes, and if they

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have a patriarch saying something wrong or ritical, then it's

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a gotcha. They're every patriarch. From the Orthodox perspective, every

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patriarch it has had has had heterodox patriarchs at some point.

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They've all fallen into heresy, including Rome, including the ep

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in any of them. So for us, it's not a

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defeater if there's a heretic patriarch who falls away, or

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if there's one even that says something heretical. Now, another

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point that should be made is that our ecclesiology candon

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law is different. So the methods about how the Orthodox

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Church goes about dealing with heresy at that level, it's

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not the same as the methods that Roman Catholics have

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and how they view the relationship of Candilaw to the Church. So,

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for example, if a patriarch commits error or heresy, schism, whatever,

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and he continues in that, there's phases too can procedure

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in the Orthodox view, So eventually, after removal from communion

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there's a sonodal excommunication, the rest of the Orthodox laity

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are not bound morally and to be expected to remove

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themselves from communing with that person until there is a

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sonodal pronouncement like that. That's Orthodox ecclesiology. So when these

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Roman Catholics are replying to us that Carol said something heterodox,

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Carol said something wrong. I can easily say absolutely he did,

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and it's just as wrong as Francis. But I don't

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have the same ecclesiology as you, and so I am

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not bound to become a set of a contest as

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an Orthodox person like you would be bound as a

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Roman Catholic to become set of a contest if the

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pope becomes a heretic er says something heretical. So all

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they keep doing is just reading Papism into Orthodoxy and

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acting like it's a gotcha when it's a different system.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and but see the day obviously, you know, I've

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heard a damn billions on the Twitter spaces where you

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will explain that that verbat into somebody and say if

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they come back on or maybe even later in the debate,

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if it's brought up again, they'll just say that you're

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you're using a double standard and it's a so like

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based on what happened earlier. It's like they just don't

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understand what it means to have different ecclesiology under under

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that post. I'm not the first one I said it.

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I say that one more time.

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Speaker 1: Jay thieve of it.

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Speaker 6: Hold on, Jay, say that one more time. My connection

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went out.

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Speaker 1: No, it's my connection. I said. They just can't literally

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can't conceive of it because they don't think in terms

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of different systems. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 6: So I'm not the first one that said anything about

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ecclesiology under that post, but he ignored it.

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Speaker 1: When I said that.

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Speaker 6: Every I went I went back maybe about like an

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hour after his reply, just to check and see how

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dishonesty was being every other every other person. And there's

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a guy Henry I don't I don't know if you

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follow him, but I mean, you know, a lot of

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a lot of other ortho guys following them whatever, he's

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the first one that said something about it. He did

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not want to engage with him. And I guess I see,

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I see now why, I see why now I don't

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I don't see how you're still doing this, ship man. Yeah, yeah,

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I don't get it. These like this level of dishonesty

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I've just seen just today, just today under you know,

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like under like with Vain. I see Vain is in here,

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you know, him replying him replying to some of these

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motherfuckers under your post, man, is it's madness. I just

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don't understand how you can how they can't understand it.

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It's like it's basically just an internal critique and they

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just don't know how to do that. They just they

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just see it as any any critique, you're giving them

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a double standard.

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Speaker 7: Instantly, they just they just a man.

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Speaker 1: Like, yeah, well you have problems. You have problems too,

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at doak P. Notice how like only one of all

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of them even came.

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Speaker 8: Okay, Jay, I just wanted to so obviously, I know

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this whole discussion is with Catholics Muslims, and they called

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they worship right I always. I know you've previously said

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that Catholics and Orthodox on what should have seen God either.

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So would that be a contradiction within the Catholic system

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to say we should have same God as he?

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Speaker 1: Would it be a contradiction within the Catholic system for

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a Catholic to say that he worships the same God

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as the Orthodox? Yeah? Oh uh, Well, I just think

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the Catholic system is just basically entirely operates on word

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concept fallacies that anything that calls it's deity God is

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therefore the same reference as the Catholic God. So when

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a Hindu says that he believes in Atman or Brahman

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or whatever, Oh that's God. Or when if a scientologist

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says he believes in a first mind, oh that's God.

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That's the same thing we believe in. So it's so

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flexible and elastic that literally anything can be equated to

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quote one God or the first cause or I mean, yeah, yeah,

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Catholics going to say that he has the same God

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as an Orthodox person, the same God as a Muslim,

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the same God as as capital g of the Hindus

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in Vatican two.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I guess what I'm wondering is like Catholic was

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the say, you know, Orthodox and Catholics wiship would that be?

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You know, like always when you say Catholics and Muslims

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wishes God. That sounds like massively cregious in one year

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listening to that, but I mean would.

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Speaker 1: So the reason they say that is natural theology. They

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think that there is a generic theism that is the

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theism of all the world religions in some loose sense,

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but a little more so the monotheistic ones they're a

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little bit closer. And then supposedly Trinity is like the

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one that's the closest of the close. So it's like

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a graded scale of what of worshiping God, and that

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doesn't exist. Like a heretic is in the same boat

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as a pagan. Now, a heretic is not identical to

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a pagan. They have different theological views, and certainly a

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heretic is closer to an Orthodox Christian than a pagan,

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but they're still in the same boat of being outside

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the faith. This is what they say can't seem to

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grasp and that's why their whole ecclesiology, their whole system,

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is built on being twenty percent right, being fifty percent right,

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being thirty percent, seventy percent Catholic, which is ludicrous even

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in their own system, because you've got two dogmatic statements

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in Roman Catholic theology that one heresy or schism or

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action of apostasy literally automatically puts you outside the mystical body.

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In other words, if I'm a Roman Catholic and I

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decide I do not believe in the Immaculate Conception in

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Catholic theology, I'm no longer Catholic. It's a packaged deal.

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You can't have nine out of ten dogmas and still

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be Catholic. This is something that they don't understand their

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own system says this.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I've overready understood the whole like you know, you know,

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Orthodox have the same similar like sacraments or whatever as

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the Catholic. Therefore, you know, we can receive their echerysm

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just like well, they haven't got the same faith then,

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so why can we What can you take you know, communion?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a fair critique. I mean, if they are

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outside communion with the Roman, see why is it still

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quote valid? And again the all goes back to the

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ex operatta ex operaparado, a sacromatology of Augustine, which the

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Orthodox do not entire in its entirety except Foggy Mountain.

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I want to go to Ruman Catholics to have any

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arguments or points or if I want to try to

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give some explanation. You can even have sixty seconds and

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I'll be quiet if you can actually make sense of

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Attican too.

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Speaker 9: Hey J, can you hear me?

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Speaker 1: Yep?

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Speaker 10: Hey J, thanks for having me on. Just this is

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my first time on. I just wanted to say, I

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think this all just sounds like relativism. To be honest,

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it just sounds like.

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Speaker 1: Of course it is. That's what I'm saying, Like, it's

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it's it works to the to their cause for numbers

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to act like every you know, generic usage of the

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word God is referring to the same thing, and so

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we're all talking about God. It must be the same God.

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Speaker 10: It's just religious syncretism, just in a different way. Yeah,

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So I think they're just lost, you know, like maybe that's.

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Speaker 1: Why they don't that's what that's why. How how could

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Erica Bara imagine spending all these years in Roman Catholicism

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and papal lawyering and you don't even know that Muslims

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and Christians and Jews don't worship the same deity. So

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it's gotten him absolutely nothing. This is why Roman Catholicism

360
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is a problem, because it leads you into spiritual delusion, contradiction, chaos,

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and idolatry. That's one and all of the madness of

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these people demonstrates that point against it. It's a system

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that will drive you insane and drive you away from Christ.

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It's a religion of dead works because it's all nonsense.

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At the end of the day, it's all trying to

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make this stupid papal thing work and the only thing

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that matters in the religion is the papercy at the

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end of the day. Felix, what's up, hija?

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Speaker 7: Can you hear me?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's actually my first time.

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Speaker 11: Also, I just wanted to add some thoughts that you

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like said earlier. And the guy earlier said that the

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thing about this like one monotoism that's like seventy percent correct,

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like fifty percent correct sort of person correct, it's actually

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a Muslim idea.

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Speaker 3: It's like Muslim idea absolutely.

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Speaker 1: It's because believe Mostlims believe in natural theology, just like running.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, and like the way that second two adapted to

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some kind of Jewish doctrines and they actually use some

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kind of rabbis to write second two. Maybe they use

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some kind of Muslim scholars to adapt this thing also,

382
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And I just want I just wanted to add one

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more thing that Muslims, like modern Muslims or do this

384
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in some kind of Southeast Asian countries, for example, in Indonesia,

385
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is actually made some kind of syncretic redision between like

386
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Islam and Buddhism and the Hinduism where they made all

387
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the hindu Jitis into one God. And it's like, well,

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technically only one God and all the other like Vish

389
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New Brass mind other like Ditis, are just like his.

390
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Speaker 3: Advotars, so they are also correct exactly.

391
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Speaker 1: It's like this is a this is a version of perennialism.

392
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And this is why Roman Catholics like Neoplatonism, because Neoplatonism

393
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knows the exact same things with God as manifestations of

394
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the principle of the One the monad. It's the exact

395
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same move that they all make. And by the way,

396
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this is the whole reason why they do patro mama.

397
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All of the people fussing about patcha Mama, what's in

398
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consisted with patcha Mama and the reasoning of Vatican too.

399
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If God can be manifested in Hinduism, why can't he

400
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be manifested as Pacha Mama. Why not just say Pacha

401
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Mama is Mary. Yeah, it might have been a pagan

402
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sacrificed human sacrifice goddess. Just say that it's Mary. Though.

403
00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:16,519
This is how stupid this is and excellent comments Felix.

404
00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:20,359
That's that perfectly makes the point there, with the same

405
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move that Muslims make. I've been debating Muslims for six years.

406
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Many of those debates revolved around their version of natural theology.

407
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They literally think that if you're on a desert island

408
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and you just start reasoning, you would come to the

409
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,480
Muslim god. That's what shaikh az ars, she'd argued, right,

410
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And so I mean that's literally and where do they

411
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get that? Well, the Muslims lie. They think they get

412
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it from the Quran. They get it from Greek Hellenic philosophy,

413
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they get it from Aristotle, they get it from Christian

414
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I should say tomistic type theology. Chase, what's up? I'm

415
00:23:58,519 --> 00:24:02,920
saying there's a symbiotic relationship between the medieval Roman Catholic

416
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and Muslim theologists and thinkers. What's up cha?

417
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Speaker 12: Yo?

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Speaker 4: You know it's funny, is uh? I? Remember?

419
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Speaker 13: You know I message you that thing about how the

420
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people say, yeah they do. It's like, okay, well yeah

421
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:17,880
you how do you have martyrs?

422
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:18,039
Speaker 1: Then?

423
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Speaker 13: But another funny thing is this is actually already baked

424
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in the theological.

425
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Speaker 4: Fluidity is already baked into the system.

426
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Speaker 13: The Byzantine Catholics can venerate Saint Palomas and not.

427
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Speaker 4: Recite the Philioque.

428
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Speaker 13: So it's funny because it's actually already baked into their religion.

429
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:40,680
That the theology doesn't matter.

430
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Speaker 1: The theology doesn't matter exactly, So theology is always secondary.

431
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:45,799
Speaker 4: To paper exactly.

432
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Speaker 13: And so and people, you know, if they say no,

433
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,079
look like we can have these these different things. No,

434
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,400
you're denying massive stretches of you know, eight hundred years

435
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,279
of history, even more, you know, twelve hundred years of history.

436
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,559
We're you're not saying, oh, it's just it's just a uh,

437
00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:07,680
you know, energetic procession. No, you you're literally having a

438
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,039
different theology. You're venerating people in a sect of Catholicism

439
00:25:12,519 --> 00:25:15,480
that were never Roman Catholic, that have a completely different

440
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theology that you your own people.

441
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Speaker 1: Will call your No. No, they were actually extra communicated

442
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,680
because if you didn't follow lions in Florence, those councils

443
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excommunicate you for not following them. So Palamas and all

444
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these people that Rome now venerates were previously literally excommunicated heretics.

445
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Speaker 13: Yes, so they all worshiped the exact same God though

446
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they were excommunicated as heretics. So it's actually it's interesting

447
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,680
because you know, now you can there's so many horns

448
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,720
of this dilemma for them through Vatican too, that they're

449
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finally having to be put in the hot seat with

450
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that they've been ignoring for you know, forever.

451
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Speaker 1: And well, I'm glad that I was able to put

452
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them in the hot seat. Uh. And you'll know not

453
00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:02,519
if you pay attention to the routes that he took

454
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,039
in the debate. Even though it got heated and it

455
00:26:05,079 --> 00:26:08,799
was loud, he constantly contradicted. At one point, it's like,

456
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,920
the documents are ambiguous as written by liberals, but it's

457
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,880
still orthodox if you just give it the right interpretation.

458
00:26:15,279 --> 00:26:17,119
Oh well, then why is it using the word god

459
00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:20,640
capital G. Well, I don't know. I mean, it's it's

460
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,839
it's wrong, but it's also not wrong. Like he just

461
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,720
he literally said it's bad, it's ambiguous, totally flipped like

462
00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:28,759
ten minutes later it's like, no, there's nothing wrong with it.

463
00:26:28,759 --> 00:26:29,400
It's fine. Yep.

464
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Speaker 13: And and what's interesting is and and I liked him.

465
00:26:33,079 --> 00:26:34,799
I think Tim's a cool guy. I know you you

466
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,920
liked him obviously to Tim's he just seems like a

467
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:38,480
likable dude.

468
00:26:38,519 --> 00:26:40,519
Speaker 1: And we went out to eat, We went out to

469
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eat afterwards.

470
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:41,559
Speaker 4: For sure.

471
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,079
Speaker 13: Yeah, And but I thought it was funny that he

472
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,480
kept going, no, you're you're confusing, you know, the signifier

473
00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:52,079
and the reference. Like, no, it's the document, the documents

474
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,720
literally saying they have the wrong signifier but.

475
00:26:54,759 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 4: The same reference. That's exactly insane.

476
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,839
Speaker 1: That's the point. The document is saying that if we

477
00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:02,519
if we really get into it, we're all worshiping the

478
00:27:02,559 --> 00:27:05,000
same thing. It's just the words get in the way,

479
00:27:05,039 --> 00:27:05,720
exactly shape.

480
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 13: So then now another another aspect of the same dilemma,

481
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,119
because there's it's so much fun thinking of how many

482
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:13,480
places you can bring this to.

483
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 4: The funny thing is okay, why does why does Florence matter?

484
00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:17,759
Speaker 1: Now?

485
00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:22,319
Speaker 13: Why does lions matter? Why doesn't I see a matter?

486
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,720
Why does chalcdon matter? If it's everything is pointing to

487
00:27:27,839 --> 00:27:29,519
the same reference, why does it matter?

488
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: Like like you, like you said, if this Vatican to

489
00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:35,279
theology is correct, there would never have been in any

490
00:27:35,319 --> 00:27:38,400
need for martyrs in the first three centuries, because why

491
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,839
are you not, like, why can't you sacrifice to the emperor?

492
00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:44,400
Just read the Emperor as an image of the once

493
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,839
your God, and there you're sacrificing to God.

494
00:27:46,799 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 13: See exactly exactly, And it's yeah, it's just it's so

495
00:27:52,079 --> 00:27:55,920
it's such an insane game, and I'm i think. You

496
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,240
know what I'm excited for is I think people are

497
00:27:58,279 --> 00:28:00,599
finally going to see why you have been saying for

498
00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:03,680
years and then myself as well when I, you know,

499
00:28:03,799 --> 00:28:06,839
started getting into doing apologetics and got a blessing to

500
00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:07,680
do apologetics.

501
00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:11,319
Speaker 4: This is where natural theology leads. This is where it leads.

502
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 13: And I was reading the uh the ambiguou uh the

503
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:19,920
Ambiguum the other day and it's funny because Saint Maximus,

504
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,640
I gotta I'll find the quote later and I'll send

505
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,599
it to you. Saint Maximus was talking about these things

506
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,359
and and explicitly saying that like the human mind, uh

507
00:28:30,559 --> 00:28:33,880
looking around, can't can't reason up to any of these

508
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,759
great things because it sees all the finitude of life

509
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,319
constantly all around it. And they'll venerate him to It's

510
00:28:40,359 --> 00:28:43,000
just funny. There's so many layers, but uh, I'm gonna

511
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,759
pop out and listen. Thanks for pulling me up.

512
00:28:46,039 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 4: Well.

513
00:28:46,279 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: I think the kill shot too is the more I

514
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,960
thought about it, every Roman Catholic will agree that Arians

515
00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:54,759
are heretics, and are you know God does not accept

516
00:28:54,920 --> 00:29:00,000
aryan adoration and worship, and yet Muslims are literally from Arians,

517
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,319
and yeah, and we're supposed to believe that Vatican too

518
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,160
is saying right that God still accepts it and and

519
00:29:07,279 --> 00:29:09,880
they adore the one True God. So I mean, yeah,

520
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,880
that's why I always ask these people too, like do

521
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,640
you think Basil thought that the Eunomians had the same

522
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,119
God as him? And most Roman Catholics who know anything,

523
00:29:18,119 --> 00:29:20,720
they'll actually ad meant no. And it's like, then you

524
00:29:20,799 --> 00:29:23,160
just shot your whole Vaticans who document in the foot.

525
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:28,839
Speaker 13: Yep, and yeah, it's so, it's so funny, it's so funny.

526
00:29:28,839 --> 00:29:31,400
And and the funny thing is about the about the

527
00:29:31,559 --> 00:29:34,519
Aryan thing is is that this also ties into it's

528
00:29:34,599 --> 00:29:36,960
the you know, the whole meme of people saying.

529
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,279
Speaker 4: Like, oh, saying Christ is king is is anti Semitic.

530
00:29:39,599 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 13: Say okay, but now when people say Christ is king

531
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,240
in Christ is Lord and stuff, it's like, you see

532
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,559
how they can just be a Muslim saying that it's

533
00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:53,640
exactly Catholics will go, yeah, dude, you got the slogan,

534
00:29:53,759 --> 00:29:54,519
let's go.

535
00:29:55,839 --> 00:29:58,359
Speaker 1: Well. Actually a lot of the track cass do cheer

536
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,799
on the Muslims from the Muslims wool agreed and stuff

537
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,079
like that. Yeah, but it doesn't make any sense because

538
00:30:04,119 --> 00:30:05,720
the Lord is a title of divinity.

539
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, I'm gonna pop out and listen, have

540
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:08,720
a good one.

541
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, they get Jordan, what's up?

542
00:30:11,319 --> 00:30:11,519
Speaker 4: Yeah?

543
00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: What's up?

544
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 7: Man?

545
00:30:13,279 --> 00:30:13,519
Speaker 14: Yeah?

546
00:30:13,559 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 15: I was discussing with the Roman Catholic about the energies

547
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,440
the energy distinction, right, and he was saying, like, oh,

548
00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:24,039
if the so like, if the energies themselves are not

549
00:30:24,119 --> 00:30:28,000
identical to the essence and they subsist within God, how

550
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,279
can you say that this isn't lead leading to polytheism

551
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,119
or like, how why couldn't you just hold to Scotus's

552
00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:35,960
definition of formal distinction.

553
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,359
Speaker 1: Well, I mean we've addressed this many times because there's

554
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,400
multiple things going on here. There's modal collapse problem. First

555
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,000
of all, there's a question of what we participate in.

556
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,640
If you want to say that it's a formal distinction,

557
00:30:51,039 --> 00:30:54,240
I mean, do you see the church fathers Basil Cappudians

558
00:30:54,359 --> 00:30:56,359
letter two thirty four. Do they talk about participating in

559
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,359
a formal distinction or do they talk about participating in

560
00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:03,279
the uncreated reality that is divine glory and immortality in life?

561
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,200
So God's energies have to be really distinct because everyone

562
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,880
agrees through apithetic theology the via negativa that we don't

563
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,200
know the divine essence, but what we do know is

564
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:15,960
the energies that come down to us, as Letter two

565
00:31:16,039 --> 00:31:18,359
thirty four says. So really the key way to refute

566
00:31:18,359 --> 00:31:23,519
the Scotis type angle or whatever, or even the identification

567
00:31:23,759 --> 00:31:26,519
of the attributes and the operations with the essence in

568
00:31:26,519 --> 00:31:30,960
a strict identification sense is to look at participation. Because

569
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,720
there's no creature that can save us. So the grace

570
00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:37,160
that we participate in cannot inherently be created, because that's

571
00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:40,160
an aryan form of grace is just another creature. We

572
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,319
actually need to be saved by the uncreated glory. And

573
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:46,240
in John seventeen, Jesus says that his disciples will participate

574
00:31:46,279 --> 00:31:48,279
in the glory that he shared with his father before

575
00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:51,160
the foundation of the world. Everyone agrees God's glory is

576
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,319
not created. That's why the Theophanes also proved this, because

577
00:31:54,319 --> 00:31:56,240
they're not the divine essence, and yet they are the

578
00:31:56,359 --> 00:32:00,440
energetic manifestation of the logos in time and space that

579
00:32:00,519 --> 00:32:04,759
immediately destroys the absolute divine simplicity. Argumentation and scout doesn't

580
00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:08,079
really doesn't get you anything other than a harder distinction

581
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,960
between the attributes and the essence. That's all it does.

582
00:32:11,039 --> 00:32:13,240
It doesn't answer the question of what we participate, what

583
00:32:13,279 --> 00:32:15,640
we participate in. It doesn't answer any of the questions

584
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,640
about Theophanes, It doesn't answer the modal collapse. All the

585
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:19,759
same problems are still there.

586
00:32:20,119 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 15: So okay, oh yeah, that's actually great. I actually even

587
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,759
in the Bible, Saint Paul talks about it and so

588
00:32:25,839 --> 00:32:27,319
forth to early Church fathers.

589
00:32:28,079 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 7: But also I would.

590
00:32:29,079 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 15: Talk what about the the incarnation itself? Because the Roman

591
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,599
Catholic was like, well, the incarnation itself, the flush is created,

592
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:37,599
that's a created effects.

593
00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:40,039
Speaker 3: So how can you say, if that's a creative effect.

594
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,559
Speaker 15: Why can't we why can't we perceive the created effects

595
00:32:43,599 --> 00:32:45,960
as opposed to uncreated energy? So what's wrong with that?

596
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,359
Speaker 1: Again, We're not saved by being participated by participating in

597
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:57,000
something created. It's uncreated glory. In John seventeen John Damascus,

598
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,119
when he talks about the human nature of Christ, he

599
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,480
says that Christ transferred his immortality that he possessed by

600
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,799
his divinity to the human nature. So the human nature

601
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:13,160
that he possesses really participates in Jesus's uncreated grace, glory

602
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,839
and immortality. If you read the two Letters of Serials Sensus,

603
00:33:16,839 --> 00:33:19,640
he talks about how we all agree that it's not

604
00:33:19,759 --> 00:33:23,079
the essence of God that is what saves us or

605
00:33:23,119 --> 00:33:26,640
that we participate in. It's his uncreated grace and immortality

606
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,480
by which he deified the human flesh that he assumed.

607
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,640
So that has that requires a necessary Okay, yeah, the

608
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,799
Eucharist requires an essencerityistinction because everyone agrees we're not eating

609
00:33:38,839 --> 00:33:40,519
the essence of God exactly.

610
00:33:40,599 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 5: And that was the point I brought up to him too.

611
00:33:43,079 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 15: It is the uncreated grace that deifies the flesh, which

612
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,559
makes it like possible for us to partake in grace.

613
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,200
So concerning that, though, does the energies does it have?

614
00:33:53,359 --> 00:33:56,039
Does it make humans who partake in it do this?

615
00:33:56,119 --> 00:33:57,960
Does it make them have a different view than people

616
00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,079
who don't partake in grace?

617
00:33:59,240 --> 00:33:59,359
Speaker 1: Like?

618
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 15: You know, so if babies unlive for some weird reason,

619
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,119
right or die, let's say, since they don't get to

620
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,519
partake in the divine grace, would would they have a

621
00:34:09,519 --> 00:34:14,000
different view of God? They wouldn't be able to perceive him?

622
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: You talk about like an unbaptized infant or.

623
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,599
Speaker 15: Something even that, or like even like people of other face.

624
00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:22,320
They perceive God differently because they don't partake in God's

625
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:23,079
grace the same.

626
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,599
Speaker 1: Way that Actually, yes, actually I think both things are happening.

627
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:28,840
So the unbeliever, as Paul says, the natural man, cannot

628
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,639
receive the things of the spirit. So that's what the

629
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,599
reason Roman Calviyus can't see this stuff or understand this stuff.

630
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,400
It's not an intellectual problem, it's a spiritual problem. It's

631
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,400
the same with atheists. So you're correct, they can't actually

632
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,840
see or perceive any of this. They think it's foolishness

633
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,760
and as polytheism and all the other ad hominem and

634
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,480
stupid blasphemous things they say about the divine energies, which

635
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,320
are literally in Paul's epistles. They say it because they're

636
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,400
stupid and they're blinded. And I don't say that out

637
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:53,920
of pride. I say that because I want them to

638
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,280
be saved. But in the case, so that's the case

639
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,480
of anyone's perception that you can't even perceive the things

640
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:04,039
without having the Holy Spirit, which you get three repentance

641
00:35:04,079 --> 00:35:08,239
and the orthodox sacraments in church life. But separate from that,

642
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,559
I would say, yeah, there is a tradition that in

643
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,559
some of the Church Fathers that the the Cappadocians Uh

644
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,400
even talk about at times. It's not exactly limbo like

645
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,480
the Roman Catholic sab but it's a version of hold

646
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,119
on one second, I'm trying to buy something in me,

647
00:35:24,199 --> 00:36:00,000
just one second, excuse me. Some of the Orthodox Church

648
00:36:00,039 --> 00:36:04,039
prayers talk about that we just simply commend infants to

649
00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:09,320
God who have died baptized. We don't know their exact state,

650
00:36:09,519 --> 00:36:11,559
and we don't think they're necessarily damned because they don't

651
00:36:11,599 --> 00:36:15,079
have any actual sin. Because we don't believe in original guilt,

652
00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:17,960
we wouldn't say that they're automatically damned. That was even

653
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,079
the Roman Kelly Church doesn't believe that anymore. But so

654
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,679
there's some speculation, and then some of the liturgical prayers

655
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,719
talk about how you know, God will take care of

656
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,000
them and that kind of stuff, so they're not necessarily damned.

657
00:36:29,039 --> 00:36:32,920
But there's no evidence either that they're necessarily partake of theosis.

658
00:36:33,159 --> 00:36:37,480
So exactly what happens with unbaptized infants is unclear. There's

659
00:36:37,519 --> 00:36:40,679
just a little bit of liturgical prayers that discuss it.

660
00:36:41,679 --> 00:36:43,039
So anyway, so what would it.

661
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 15: Be like though it would it would they still have

662
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,519
eternal happiness, they just don't have the vision of God

663
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:53,199
with the beatific vision, like they can still have eternal Yeah.

664
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,599
Speaker 1: I think the one statement that I've seen from Nissa

665
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:57,960
is that he speculates that they would be put into

666
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,440
a place of natural felicity, which is kind of close

667
00:37:01,519 --> 00:37:04,239
to infant limbos of the Roman Catholics have.

668
00:37:05,199 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 15: Okay, and like, because why come from like a reform background,

669
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,400
so I don't want to think of I know, Orthodox

670
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,719
doesn't think of God as as legalistic, but well, i'd say, like,

671
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,719
would you say that damning itself just talking about like

672
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,000
regular humans here is it to satisfy God's wrath since

673
00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:23,559
you are in opposition to his will?

674
00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:29,199
Speaker 1: Is that the whole basis of hell. No, I think

675
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,639
that the Orthodox conception of hell is a lot more

676
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:37,360
sensible the whole river of fire thesis versus some satisfaction notion.

677
00:37:37,519 --> 00:37:39,920
First of all, no creature can satisfy God. And this

678
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,559
is one of the reasons why we don't believe in,

679
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,800
you know, the penal substitution reformation idea, because that's all

680
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,599
premised on the father damning the son to satisfy his

681
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,719
justice and his infinite holiness. But the problem is that

682
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,440
what's offered in the in the triad cannot be one

683
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,440
person to another because anything that happens in nity is

684
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,880
all three persons. So you got to have a triadic

685
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,639
action in the traditional offering notion is either anti trinitarian

686
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,400
or can you stop doing that? The background is really loud.

687
00:38:13,679 --> 00:38:18,880
Oh yeah, yeah, right, so they so so you you know,

688
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:20,800
if you have the traditional reformed idea of like the

689
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,000
damning of the sun, then that's anti trinitarian. So you can't,

690
00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:28,280
we can't do that. So the business E Sonos the

691
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,159
eleventh century points out that what's offered is the humanity

692
00:38:32,199 --> 00:38:34,320
of Christ to the Father in the spirit. So it's

693
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,719
a triadic action or this whereby the son is offering

694
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,719
his humanity to the Father in love in the Holy Spirit.

695
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:46,679
So uh, that's not any like a penal sanctioned imputational model.

696
00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:52,360
It's a offering of love that restores heels and deifies

697
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,360
our nature. So is that Oh.

698
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 15: Yeah, that that answers it. Well, just just one more thing,

699
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,440
just just like about the litargy about how God can

700
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,000
do you think that not just in scripture but also

701
00:39:05,119 --> 00:39:08,360
like through the liturgy. God could speaks obviously through the church,

702
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,559
and he speaks through liturgies. Is that like, you know,

703
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,559
when we proclaim the invocation of the saints, you know

704
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:15,960
Mother Mary of course.

705
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,599
Speaker 3: Or Buss and Mother. Is that God's speaking through the liturgy?

706
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: Well, actually everything is God speaking, So in a sense, yeah,

707
00:39:27,079 --> 00:39:29,639
I mean everything that's happening in some senses, you know,

708
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,760
God's providence. Everything that happens in our lives is God's providence.

709
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,000
The liturgy is yes, God's speaking to us. I mean,

710
00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:40,599
lives of the saints speak to us, the Bible speaks

711
00:39:40,599 --> 00:39:44,840
to us. All these things are potentially you could say,

712
00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:46,400
God speaking.

713
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 15: Okay, yeah, oh yeah, that's some great answers there. I

714
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,800
actually learn quite a bit. Well, yeah, thank you for

715
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,360
answering my questions. I appreciate it.

716
00:39:57,519 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, great questions. We got a lot of you know,

717
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:14,840
talk some videos on all those topics. So Joshua, Hello, Yeah,

718
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:15,280
what's up?

719
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 3: Hi?

720
00:40:16,119 --> 00:40:16,599
Speaker 4: Can you hear me?

721
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:20,119
Speaker 1: Yeah? I go ahead.

722
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 16: Yeah, I just had a quick question on Oriental Orthodoxy

723
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,679
because just within the Orthodox Church right now, I find

724
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,360
that there's a bit of like an acceptance of the

725
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,639
Oriental position without I guess I guess I want to

726
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,960
know more about it. I'm just scurious if you know,

727
00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:43,239
if you like have any recommendations on books that that

728
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,360
might just give some insight into the controversy as well as.

729
00:40:47,599 --> 00:40:52,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the best books is joh John mcguckin's

730
00:40:52,639 --> 00:40:56,320
book Saying Cyril of Alexander in the Christological Controversy, Okay,

731
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,760
and then I would read say Maximus's Little Book Just

732
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:06,159
be Tation with Purists, and then I would read John

733
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,639
Damascus's book three of on the Orthodox Faith. That's really

734
00:41:09,639 --> 00:41:12,920
good too. So all those three things will will I

735
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,760
think helps solidify. But especially at the end of the

736
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,559
macguckan book is the Two Letters of Serial to six Census,

737
00:41:18,599 --> 00:41:19,519
which is really important.

738
00:41:19,679 --> 00:41:22,079
Speaker 4: Okay, that's awesome, all right, thank you so much. Ja.

739
00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going through. We're still doing our Oriental series.

740
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,760
We've all we've only done three, but we're going to continue.

741
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:41,360
Joshua other Joshua you there, oh hey, sorry, yeah, sorry,

742
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:42,559
go ahead. Yeah.

743
00:41:42,599 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 17: So, I was just wondering where is where does Luminingentia

744
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:48,519
mentioned Hindus.

745
00:41:48,559 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: I'm just looking it up right now, let me see,

746
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:58,480
I know know Tratte does in three right, So Okay, okay,

747
00:41:58,519 --> 00:42:02,559
I'm it's we read it earlier, loyell On, let me see.

748
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:08,280
I'm sorry, it's it's paragraph too. It says in Hinduism,

749
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:12,159
men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an

750
00:42:12,159 --> 00:42:16,519
inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They

751
00:42:16,559 --> 00:42:19,719
seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition, and

752
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,400
through esthetic practices or profound meditation, or a flight to

753
00:42:24,559 --> 00:42:31,199
God with love and trust. Okay, which is not true.

754
00:42:32,119 --> 00:42:34,559
You don't. You don't have a flight to God in

755
00:42:34,639 --> 00:42:36,000
love and trust and into it.

756
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 17: It's pretty much like Romans one, but exact opposite, exactly.

757
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:42,639
Speaker 1: Yeah.

758
00:42:42,679 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 18: No, I'm just reading, like I'm just trying to find

759
00:42:45,519 --> 00:42:48,559
on Luminegentia and paragraph sixteen.

760
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,679
Speaker 19: Like what Catholics have to say about that, And.

761
00:42:54,199 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't figure out like.

762
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:02,280
Speaker 18: How they like why it's singing Muslims specifically.

763
00:43:03,559 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: Well, remember there's two I think because the argument in

764
00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:13,079
Lumgentium is and in No Ratt is that since Jews

765
00:43:13,119 --> 00:43:17,039
are not gonna at all have anything good to say

766
00:43:17,079 --> 00:43:21,519
about Jesus or Mary, if Muslims at least like Jesus

767
00:43:21,559 --> 00:43:26,320
and Mary, then they're closer to Us than Jews, although

768
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,280
Jews are actually listed first Intate and limit Gentium, which

769
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,280
is funny, right yeah, no.

770
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,280
Speaker 18: Yeah, which is also like a shocking page where it

771
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,239
says God still has like this.

772
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 3: People remains most dear to God.

773
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,559
Speaker 17: I'm like, that's kind of a misinterpretation of there is.

774
00:43:44,519 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: No ambiguity there.

775
00:43:45,519 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 7: Yeah.

776
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,159
Speaker 1: In fact, yeah, in fact, the two thousand and three

777
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,760
document that they put out, the US Conference of Catholic

778
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,599
Bishops put out, is even worse. It actually says that

779
00:43:55,679 --> 00:43:58,360
because God still loves them, you shouldn't try to convert Jews.

780
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,440
So yeah, all that, Yeah, that's worse.

781
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:09,079
Speaker 18: Yeah, like it's uh that that one's surprising.

782
00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 17: And then just the one look like I don't know,

783
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,960
like the idea that it even matters that you consider

784
00:44:16,039 --> 00:44:21,239
Jesus a prophet when Saint John says that where Jesus

785
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:22,960
is incarnate, son of God.

786
00:44:23,079 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: Anti Christ exactly. Yeah, that's exactly my point with the

787
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,480
whole argument, Like, Okay, so most Catholics are going to

788
00:44:30,559 --> 00:44:37,679
say that Arians are heretics and God doesn't accept arianism.

789
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,239
Oh but wait a minute, Muslims are basically arians. They

790
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,360
come out of arianism, and God accepts Muslim it's just stupid.

791
00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:52,639
It's like, hey, Yates, what's up? Man? Hey, diy can

792
00:44:52,639 --> 00:44:56,239
you hear me? Yes, sir, Hey, I'll make this quick.

793
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,679
Speaker 20: With Lemon Gentium sixteen, I sent you a d with

794
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,000
this information, but I'll try to make it quick as possible.

795
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,880
The very last sentence says, and together with us, they

796
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,760
adore the One merciful God. Mankind's judge on the last day.

797
00:45:11,519 --> 00:45:13,880
Mankind's judge on the last day, according to John five

798
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:14,440
twenty two.

799
00:45:14,519 --> 00:45:15,119
Speaker 1: Is Jesus.

800
00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:18,639
Speaker 20: It's explicitly stated. So how on earth could they get

801
00:45:18,639 --> 00:45:19,199
around that?

802
00:45:21,079 --> 00:45:26,079
Speaker 1: Yeah? Exactly. And also don't Muslims think that Jesus participates

803
00:45:26,199 --> 00:45:29,320
in the judgment at the last day too? So, I mean,

804
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,079
is that not even clearer against the argument that Tim

805
00:45:32,119 --> 00:45:32,920
Gordon was making.

806
00:45:33,199 --> 00:45:36,199
Speaker 20: Right, it's explicitly saying, yeah, we adore the One God

807
00:45:36,199 --> 00:45:42,039
with Muslims, but also Jesus is God. It's just a

808
00:45:42,039 --> 00:45:44,679
contradiction in the same sentence.

809
00:45:45,639 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah, See, you can't there's no such thing as

810
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,280
like half God. Right, Well, we're on the same page

811
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,039
because we worship half of God. I mean imagine saying

812
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:55,960
I believe in the same God as you, but only

813
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,599
half of it. It's like, well, there's this thing as

814
00:45:58,599 --> 00:46:01,159
half God. Oh really there's not. Well then how are

815
00:46:01,159 --> 00:46:02,880
your works being the same God if it's not the Trinity?

816
00:46:03,599 --> 00:46:04,639
Speaker 19: Right my adults?

817
00:46:04,679 --> 00:46:05,119
Speaker 1: Exactly?

818
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,079
Speaker 20: All right, I'm gonna let somebody else get up here.

819
00:46:07,679 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 1: Yeah a good qu a good point. Josh again, got

820
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:19,079
a lot Josh's hey, I think I got a delay here.

821
00:46:19,119 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 3: So every time I request, like, it's delayed, so my bad.

822
00:46:23,599 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 18: Yeah, so I just want to throw Like Also, the

823
00:46:25,519 --> 00:46:28,559
natural theology move that they make when they go to

824
00:46:28,679 --> 00:46:31,239
Romans one is totally bogus, Like.

825
00:46:31,559 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not natural theology, like.

826
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 18: The idea that Mohammad and Saudi Arabia is sitting there

827
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,079
reasoning himself to God as opposed to like he was

828
00:46:40,199 --> 00:46:42,400
taught under the threat of force that this is what

829
00:46:42,519 --> 00:46:49,519
I believe, Like this is not like, yeah, it's not right.

830
00:46:49,559 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 1: So, as we point out, if you read Romans One

831
00:46:53,079 --> 00:46:57,880
from the Orthodox perspective, Paul is talking about a darkened heart. Uh,

832
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,199
it's not primarily about intellect and Roman Roman Caltholk read

833
00:47:02,519 --> 00:47:06,599
the Romans. Catholics read Romans One like if you just

834
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,719
if a pagan just kind of sat there and reasoned correctly,

835
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:11,639
like Aristotle like he was. If he was just doing

836
00:47:11,679 --> 00:47:15,079
like syllogisms, he would basically he would be aristotl right,

837
00:47:15,119 --> 00:47:17,320
he would come to the right conclusion about a first cause.

838
00:47:17,639 --> 00:47:20,119
That's literally what they think Romans one is about is

839
00:47:20,199 --> 00:47:25,559
like syllogisms. No, No, it's saying that the reason that

840
00:47:25,679 --> 00:47:28,719
men don't worship the true God is that their hearts

841
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:33,360
are darkened and they worship idols. It's the literal opposite

842
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:38,000
of the of the problem which that Roman Calolus say,

843
00:47:38,079 --> 00:47:41,440
which they locate in the intellect. They act like the

844
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,159
intellect is making a mistake in the way that reasons

845
00:47:44,199 --> 00:47:47,320
about creatures, and that that's what Paul's talking about if

846
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,119
they just reason correctly. But the whole point is that

847
00:47:50,159 --> 00:47:52,679
it's not even the reasoning faculty that is the problem.

848
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,719
They reason falsely because their hearts are darkened, because Roman

849
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:58,440
Romanic caalics don't have a doction of the heart of

850
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,559
the news. So by wait, I think if I recall

851
00:48:02,119 --> 00:48:04,880
the actual terminology that's used there by Paul, and the

852
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:11,039
Greek corresponds to the terminology uh in the Hebrew text

853
00:48:11,159 --> 00:48:14,119
that like David uses about the heart the news, and

854
00:48:14,159 --> 00:48:16,840
the news is not a Greek gnostic doctrine. It's a

855
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:21,039
Hebrew doctor the news. The heart is not the same

856
00:48:21,079 --> 00:48:24,639
thing as the intellect, but in reman Caltholic theology, the

857
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:28,400
soul is basically just the intellect, the reasoning faculty spirit

858
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:29,000
led what's up?

859
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,159
Speaker 21: Yes, all right, I gotta I got a quick question

860
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,280
for you, and is it? Is it okay if I

861
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,199
ask you something kind of outside of the debate title.

862
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 19: If not, that's cool. We could we could.

863
00:48:44,679 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 21: Say no, I don't care, all right, So I just

864
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,000
I want to get your opinion on like speech, so

865
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:56,880
not that you know, not that we have to be

866
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,719
I guess, like perfect all the time their speech. And

867
00:49:01,199 --> 00:49:04,280
I'm definitely not advocating for tone policing, but I'm just

868
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,760
trying to figure out, like what is because when I

869
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,719
read the Patristic Fathers, it's like they don't they tell

870
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:14,360
us to not really like like curse, you use crude

871
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,760
language stuff like that, And again this is not.

872
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: I disagree because they they curse and say horrible things

873
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,840
and make mean jokes all the time. Gotcha.

874
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,119
Speaker 21: Yeah, Like I said, I want to get your take

875
00:49:28,199 --> 00:49:31,440
on like like what I guess it's it kind of

876
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:33,000
falls into economy too.

877
00:49:33,159 --> 00:49:35,599
Speaker 1: Like I just let's let's walk all all right, So

878
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:37,599
let's walk through a couple of points there, right, So, like,

879
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:43,280
you know, the Saint Cyril Jerusalem says hate all here

880
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,440
at sics and hate the assemblies of the hero at Sis.

881
00:49:45,519 --> 00:49:48,239
That's actually in the rudder too. Yeah, So does that

882
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,960
mean that I have to like go out and you know,

883
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:55,599
like literally have hatred in my heart? I think he's saying, like,

884
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:58,760
you hate the theology, you hate their system. Right, if

885
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,639
you read the way that Paul talks about, you know,

886
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,119
people of Creed, he says Cretans are all liars, they're

887
00:50:04,119 --> 00:50:09,079
basically to comebacks. Okay, So if you read Jerome the

888
00:50:09,079 --> 00:50:12,400
way that he talks about Helvidius or Vigilantius, I mean

889
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:14,639
he just calls him a dog, he calls him a monster,

890
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:19,159
he calls him basically a loser. So it's pretty common

891
00:50:19,159 --> 00:50:22,840
in the Patristic writings that they call people these names

892
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,760
all the time, especially they're the enemies of the faith.

893
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,440
They don't typically do that for people inside the church,

894
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,000
although sometimes they even do that. But aside from that,

895
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:36,280
I mean, the scriptures themselves tell us to avoid the fool.

896
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,639
How can I avoid the fool? If I can't identify

897
00:50:38,639 --> 00:50:42,400
who a fool is, Yeah, so it just call. If

898
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:43,880
I was to say you're a fool, I'm not going

899
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,199
to waste my time with you. There's nothing wrong with

900
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,800
that unless the person isn't a fool. And if you remember,

901
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,079
and when Jesus talks about he says, if anybody calls

902
00:50:52,079 --> 00:50:54,519
his brother a fool without reason, he is liable to

903
00:50:54,559 --> 00:50:58,639
the judgment. Well that's yeah, without reason. So if there

904
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:00,920
is a reason, then you're not likeable to the judgment.

905
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,000
And Jesus himself called people names all the time. He

906
00:51:03,039 --> 00:51:06,440
called Herod of Fox, he called you know, a woman

907
00:51:07,039 --> 00:51:09,280
who came to him, he called her he said, the

908
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,559
dogs eat from the eat from the table. So I

909
00:51:12,559 --> 00:51:15,440
mean Jesus used this kind of demeaning language at times too,

910
00:51:15,559 --> 00:51:18,679
So I don't see why even that language is a

911
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:23,400
universally a problem. Now. Second from that, cursing is a

912
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,320
different issue where I think I disagree with a lot

913
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:30,039
of people on this because people think that what Protestants

914
00:51:30,039 --> 00:51:34,519
decided that. So you have these Puritans in a few

915
00:51:34,519 --> 00:51:37,760
centuries ago in America, and they had this moralistic idea

916
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:42,639
that cursing wasn't just like literally pronouncing a curse or

917
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,800
using God's name in vain, which is actually what it

918
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,159
is to curse, curse somebody with God's name or something,

919
00:51:49,599 --> 00:51:52,199
you know, to say GD for example, Like that kind

920
00:51:52,199 --> 00:51:54,559
of stuff is what blaspheming and using the Lord's name

921
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:58,039
in vain is. That's cursing. Saying the F word or

922
00:51:58,079 --> 00:52:02,280
saying the word shit. That's just older English language that

923
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,440
commoners used. So there's nothing inherently wrong with the word.

924
00:52:05,639 --> 00:52:08,639
It's like there's nothing that makes the word poop more

925
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,920
holy than the word shit. They literally are identical. And

926
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,559
even the King James Bible uses the word piss, right,

927
00:52:16,639 --> 00:52:19,000
So do I have to say peepie or piss? So

928
00:52:19,079 --> 00:52:20,719
I don't believe. I don't. I don't believe there is

929
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,639
such a thing as quote cuss words. I think that

930
00:52:23,679 --> 00:52:28,159
there are things like propriety and taboos, and so, for example,

931
00:52:28,199 --> 00:52:30,920
it wouldn't be appropriate to walk into a church and say,

932
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,360
you know, shit and fuck or something like that, because

933
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:38,960
it's improper and that would be a vulgar speech. But

934
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,960
if somebody says, you know, did you have sex with

935
00:52:42,039 --> 00:52:45,840
her or did you hump her or did you fuck her?

936
00:52:46,159 --> 00:52:48,960
Between those three words, they all mean essentially the same thing,

937
00:52:49,039 --> 00:52:51,960
and there's nothing inherently like, there's not It's not like

938
00:52:52,039 --> 00:52:54,320
one of the words is magically more evil than the

939
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,360
other word. That's that's just moral. That's just like Protestant

940
00:52:57,719 --> 00:52:58,920
Puritan superstitioning.

941
00:52:59,199 --> 00:53:02,079
Speaker 21: Yeah, I got you're saying, you're you're not like advocating

942
00:53:02,199 --> 00:53:03,519
for like vulgar speech.

943
00:53:03,559 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 19: But it's just like, who are we kidding?

944
00:53:05,039 --> 00:53:07,639
Speaker 21: Right, Like if you say hump, it means the same thing, right,

945
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:09,280
So I get.

946
00:53:09,199 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 1: Well, but no, wait a minute, So you understand that

947
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,519
people talk about like you have to talk about these

948
00:53:14,559 --> 00:53:17,280
things at times, So I'm not sure what you mean

949
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,159
by that, Like, so if so, first of all, when

950
00:53:20,159 --> 00:53:23,920
you talk about vulgar, the term vulgar again meant the

951
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:28,039
common language. And so in the West, what we think

952
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:32,960
is vulgar terminology or cuss words is just identified with

953
00:53:33,079 --> 00:53:37,039
what the poor people and the bar people and the

954
00:53:37,039 --> 00:53:40,320
wench made maids would say, you know, down at the

955
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,320
pub when they would talk about going to the bathroom

956
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:47,440
or having intimate affairs. Right, that's the speech of the

957
00:53:47,519 --> 00:53:52,000
vulgar people, the commoners. That's why it's called vulgarity. That's

958
00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:55,599
literally literally the origin of it and so the point

959
00:53:55,639 --> 00:53:58,559
is that if I is it really any different if

960
00:53:58,599 --> 00:54:03,360
I say poop is out of shit? Now? Okay? So,

961
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,039
and is it necessarily wrong to talk about poop if

962
00:54:07,119 --> 00:54:09,400
I have to have you know, I have to explain

963
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:11,880
where are you going? I'm going to poop like like,

964
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:12,880
there's nothing wrong.

965
00:54:12,679 --> 00:54:14,280
Speaker 19: With that, yeah, yeah, yeah.

966
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,199
Speaker 1: And there's nothing wrong with saying I'm going to take

967
00:54:16,199 --> 00:54:19,119
a ship like this, There's no it's just silly to

968
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,639
quibble over this stuff. But again, I do agree that

969
00:54:22,679 --> 00:54:26,800
there are there is such a thing as propriety, and uh,

970
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:28,960
you know, for example, if I'm in a comedy club,

971
00:54:29,559 --> 00:54:31,559
that's a different setting than if I'm in the church,

972
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,199
And so it's proper in a comedy club that you're

973
00:54:34,199 --> 00:54:36,159
gonna hear. And by the way, I'm not for nasty,

974
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,559
disgusting jokes. There's a lot of raunchy stuff that I

975
00:54:38,559 --> 00:54:41,440
think is over the line. Yeah, so there there is speech.

976
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,880
As Paul talks about that is I mean that the

977
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,440
English translation used the word vulgar. But you know, let

978
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,800
no unclean speech come out of your mouth. Paul says,

979
00:54:50,119 --> 00:54:52,960
But even that, you could argue, it's more it's it's

980
00:54:53,079 --> 00:54:55,119
you know, if you're talking bad about your brother. That's

981
00:54:55,159 --> 00:54:58,079
worse than saying the word shit. So Paul might even

982
00:54:58,119 --> 00:55:00,760
mean unclean speech in that way. But anyway, go ahead

983
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:01,400
with your points.

984
00:55:01,559 --> 00:55:04,079
Speaker 21: Yeah, No, I I just, you know, wanted to get

985
00:55:04,079 --> 00:55:07,679
your your take on that, because I've even noticed you

986
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,159
kind of like tone it down a little bit too.

987
00:55:10,199 --> 00:55:11,920
Like I hear you a lot of the times, kind

988
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:14,639
of like qualifying and telling people like, I'm not trying

989
00:55:14,679 --> 00:55:15,440
to be mean to you.

990
00:55:15,559 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 19: But so I think like you, at least from.

991
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 21: What I've what I've seen since I've been watching you,

992
00:55:22,679 --> 00:55:25,719
is that you actually take care to let people know like, hey,

993
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:27,400
I'm not trying to be mean to you or whatever,

994
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,360
but you know, I gotta, I gotta kind of.

995
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:30,760
Speaker 19: Correct you on this point or whatever.

996
00:55:31,119 --> 00:55:35,119
Speaker 21: And it's really only when people I guess get ridiculous

997
00:55:35,119 --> 00:55:36,960
where you kind of have to shut them down. Might

998
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:39,360
call him an idiot, might use some of the language

999
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,000
that the Patristic fathers utilize.

1000
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 1: But I don't.

1001
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 21: I don't really see you going out of your way

1002
00:55:43,039 --> 00:55:45,360
to like just randomly insult.

1003
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:46,159
Speaker 19: People because you want to be mean.

1004
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 1: No, I don't.

1005
00:55:48,559 --> 00:55:52,119
Speaker 19: I mean, which is what you get, which is what

1006
00:55:52,159 --> 00:55:55,400
you get accused of right, right, Yeah, So I just

1007
00:55:55,679 --> 00:55:56,039
wanted to.

1008
00:55:57,199 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 21: I just wanted to, like I said, just kind of

1009
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:00,559
wanted to get your take on that and just kind

1010
00:56:00,559 --> 00:56:05,039
of see where you are coming from on how you

1011
00:56:05,159 --> 00:56:07,000
view some of this language stuff.

1012
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, go read your own. I mean, he's pretty vicious

1013
00:56:11,679 --> 00:56:14,360
when it comes to everybody. He had disagrees with King

1014
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:14,840
what's up?

1015
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 22: Hey, what's up?

1016
00:56:16,559 --> 00:56:17,119
Speaker 23: Jay?

1017
00:56:17,559 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 22: I just wanted to agree with you on your earlier

1018
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,960
ex post when you said that this Vatican two is

1019
00:56:23,079 --> 00:56:27,320
very Masonic. It absolutely is. It's something I wish God

1020
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,360
spoken about more. It's actually it's so new age, which

1021
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:35,519
you obviously know. It's I'm not trying to be a crass,

1022
00:56:35,679 --> 00:56:38,039
but it sounds like something you know, when I was

1023
00:56:38,079 --> 00:56:41,840
sixteen doing ascid with my buddies, that we would come

1024
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,519
up with this Vatican two. We're all one and so

1025
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,639
to the Catholics, I say, I mean, dude, is your

1026
00:56:47,679 --> 00:56:51,960
theology seriously just we're all one? No, We're not all one.

1027
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like DMT brow theology exactly. Yeah.

1028
00:56:55,519 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 22: So this Pope of the Future that your videos are

1029
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:03,039
so hilarious about it is totally this new age hope

1030
00:57:03,039 --> 00:57:08,239
of the future. So yes, thank you. Jay, I appreciate you, bro, Yeah.

1031
00:57:08,079 --> 00:57:10,079
Speaker 1: Thank you. That's exactly the whole point.

1032
00:57:10,199 --> 00:57:10,519
Speaker 7: I mean.

1033
00:57:10,679 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 1: The problem is not quibbling over words. The problem is

1034
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:17,599
that believing this theology is delusion and it will lead

1035
00:57:17,599 --> 00:57:20,559
you to spiritual ruin if I believe all the religions

1036
00:57:20,559 --> 00:57:23,119
are passed to God, which is essentially what Francis said,

1037
00:57:23,199 --> 00:57:27,360
echoing Vatican too. That's the dangerous in result of this,

1038
00:57:28,159 --> 00:57:30,480
and it also demonstrates the whole point that we've been

1039
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,119
making for many years that natural theology literally can just

1040
00:57:34,199 --> 00:57:37,039
lead to perennialism. If you read the Garby paper, that's

1041
00:57:37,079 --> 00:57:38,679
one of the points he makes at the beginning, because

1042
00:57:38,679 --> 00:57:41,800
he studied under the famous perennialist John Hick, and he

1043
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,320
said he argues, like, if I'm going to be doing

1044
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,199
natural theology, there's no reason why that has to lead

1045
00:57:48,239 --> 00:57:51,360
me to Tomism or Catholicism. Why can't it lead me

1046
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:55,880
to perennialism. And the argument I think that's kind of

1047
00:57:55,920 --> 00:58:00,239
being made here indirectly by everybody via this Vatican into

1048
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,360
debate and what's happening with you know, Tim Gordon and stuff,

1049
00:58:04,239 --> 00:58:07,480
is that Vatican too kind of is perennialism, Like why

1050
00:58:07,559 --> 00:58:10,719
is it not? Why why does that have to lead

1051
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:15,320
me to tonis zone and sure as hell doesn't necessarily

1052
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,360
lead to Jesus. And why are we going to use

1053
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:22,800
the arguments and the philosophy and the metaphysics of Muslims

1054
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:27,000
and the Neoplatonists and all these people and then try

1055
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,239
to get them into Christianity. It's it just doesn't make

1056
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,320
any sense. It's like, yeah, let me show you that

1057
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:34,119
we all believe in a monad. Oh, but it's not

1058
00:58:34,199 --> 00:58:37,280
the Muslim monad. It's the Jesus monad. Like we all

1059
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:39,320
believe in the monad, let's just stick Jesus on top

1060
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,599
of it. That's the whole Roman Catholic approach. Here's inquirer.

1061
00:58:42,639 --> 00:58:51,400
What's up? Yeah, what's up? Currit Yeah?

1062
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:52,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah.

1063
00:58:52,519 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 4: I just want to say I've been seeing you on

1064
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:54,800
some bigger podcasts.

1065
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 15: That's awesome, man, it's good to see you getting some recognition.

1066
00:58:59,719 --> 00:59:01,119
Speaker 3: Cool enjoy your work.

1067
00:59:01,199 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 4: So I just have a couple of questions, like.

1068
00:59:05,199 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 24: I am in the process of like starting Catechism, and

1069
00:59:10,639 --> 00:59:12,960
the one thing that kind of stands out to me

1070
00:59:13,079 --> 00:59:13,639
is when they.

1071
00:59:13,559 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 1: Say you Roman Catholic catechis hold on Orthodox Katechistas or

1072
00:59:21,559 --> 00:59:28,880
Roman Catholic Catechism. Okay, gotcha. Yeah.

1073
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 24: So I'm just wondering, like when they say theotokos like

1074
00:59:32,599 --> 00:59:35,079
most holy, what do they mean by that?

1075
00:59:35,199 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 4: Like that is the only thing that really sticks out

1076
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:37,519
to me.

1077
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 1: I clearly they don't mean the most out of all. Right, No,

1078
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:44,880
we would say she's the queen of Heaven, She's the

1079
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:48,320
queen of saints, she is the holiest love creatures. We

1080
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,719
would agree with that. No, just I think it's just

1081
00:59:52,320 --> 01:00:00,719
a delay. Can you hear me? Now there? Can you

1082
01:00:00,719 --> 01:00:02,920
guys hear me out there in this? I think there

1083
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:04,719
was a delay with that guy. Can you guys hear me?

1084
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,440
If you can hear me, do like a thumps up

1085
01:00:08,519 --> 01:00:20,280
or something. Can anybody hear me? He requests to speak? Okay,

1086
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,360
you guys can Yeah? I mean yeah. So Mary is

1087
01:00:23,719 --> 01:00:26,599
called most holy because she's the queen of saints. She

1088
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:30,559
is the the tokos, she is the godbearer, Mother of God.

1089
01:00:31,679 --> 01:00:34,360
You know, in Psalm forty five, she's pictured as right

1090
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,000
next to the king. It's a Messianic psalm and Mary

1091
01:00:37,079 --> 01:00:40,079
is the queen in that song. So all of the

1092
01:00:40,199 --> 01:00:43,440
accolades that we give to her signify that she is

1093
01:00:43,519 --> 01:00:47,960
the pre eminent of all the creatures. She's the new Israel,

1094
01:00:48,119 --> 01:00:51,400
She's the again Tetoko's Mother of God, Queen of Heaven

1095
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:56,280
Revelation twelve. So it's just proper to her honor that

1096
01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:10,880
she be called and given that title. Kelly. I'm you, Kelly.

1097
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:11,320
What's up?

1098
01:01:12,679 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 2: Hi?

1099
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 25: I just joined the space and so I was reading

1100
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,880
the comments below. So it sounds like people are saying

1101
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:22,559
that Roman Catholics won't come up. So I'm a Roman Catholic.

1102
01:01:22,559 --> 01:01:25,639
I'm not sure if we're against us or for us.

1103
01:01:25,679 --> 01:01:28,400
So do you want to clarify or does any people?

1104
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 1: Well, the point was that because I just did a

1105
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:36,599
big Roman Catholic debate. The debate centered around the fact

1106
01:01:36,679 --> 01:01:41,880
that the text of Vatican two say very clearly that Muslims, Christians,

1107
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:44,840
and Jews all worship the same God, and that's essentially

1108
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,440
what we're taking issue with. It also says that Hindus

1109
01:01:47,559 --> 01:01:48,480
worship God too.

1110
01:01:50,519 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 9: Oh, I say, I was just gonna.

1111
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 25: I wasn't quite sure if people were saying that, you know,

1112
01:01:56,159 --> 01:01:58,159
our religion, I'm not sure if you're Catholic, but I

1113
01:01:58,199 --> 01:02:00,760
am so, are my really isn't true?

1114
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,519
Speaker 9: Or if anyone had any questions about.

1115
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,039
Speaker 1: Well, I'm saying that it makes it not true because

1116
01:02:06,079 --> 01:02:09,000
it's a contradiction from the basics of the Bible and

1117
01:02:09,079 --> 01:02:12,360
traditional Christian teaching. Muslims and Christians and Jews don't worship

1118
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:15,280
the same God. And if Vatican two says that, then

1119
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:17,000
from Catholicism is not true.

1120
01:02:18,519 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 9: Correct.

1121
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 25: Yes, I mean they don't see Jesus the same as Catholics.

1122
01:02:23,039 --> 01:02:27,639
Speaker 1: To well, then it's not the same reference, it's not

1123
01:02:27,679 --> 01:02:31,159
the same deity. So then Vatican two is false. That's

1124
01:02:31,159 --> 01:02:31,559
the point.

1125
01:02:32,519 --> 01:02:35,800
Speaker 25: Oh, I see, Okay, I see what you're saying. Well,

1126
01:02:36,159 --> 01:02:39,480
I mean, that's that's fine. I mean, you know, I

1127
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:43,039
wasn't quite sure if just anybody was calling Catholics out

1128
01:02:43,119 --> 01:02:46,199
as far as what it is that we believe. So,

1129
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:50,159
I mean, you know that obviously we're more towards the

1130
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:53,480
you know, I mean, the Jews kind of stop at

1131
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,119
the first you know, half of the Bible were more

1132
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:57,159
New Testament.

1133
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, But this is more specifically an argument about

1134
01:03:02,159 --> 01:03:05,920
the Vatican teaching at the Second Vatican Council, which is

1135
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:11,400
to basically admit that it's adopting a kind of a

1136
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:15,840
syncretism or a perennialism, where all the religions in some

1137
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,760
way kind of point to and participate in Christ in

1138
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,840
God and salvation even though they don't know it. It's

1139
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,639
a very problematic thing to say that Muslims, Christians at

1140
01:03:26,679 --> 01:03:30,559
Jews worship the same God when they clearly don't. For example,

1141
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:35,119
Jesus says in John eight that Abraham believed and worshiped

1142
01:03:35,159 --> 01:03:39,119
him and that Jesus is the creator and God of

1143
01:03:39,199 --> 01:03:41,960
the Old Testament. Well that's the case, then the Jews

1144
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:44,840
and the Muslims don't worship the same God as Jesus did.

1145
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:48,599
Speaker 9: Right, correct.

1146
01:03:48,639 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 25: I mean I'm not well read on honestly what the

1147
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:53,639
Muslims and he Dos.

1148
01:03:55,159 --> 01:03:59,079
Speaker 9: Believe in any way, because I.

1149
01:03:58,119 --> 01:04:01,880
Speaker 1: Well, Muslims are good on this point, because they're a

1150
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:05,360
good example in this to make this case, because Muslims

1151
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:09,320
say that Allah has no sons. But if Allah has

1152
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:12,920
no sons and Jesus calls God his father, then Allah

1153
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:15,639
can't be Jesus's God and can't be God the Father.

1154
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 25: Correct, And I mean do they I'm assuming that they

1155
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:25,039
don't believe that the Blessed Mother is the actual mother

1156
01:04:25,119 --> 01:04:27,960
of Jesus, or they do, and then they just don't

1157
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:28,320
seem to.

1158
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:28,800
Speaker 4: Care about her.

1159
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:31,400
Speaker 1: No, they think that there is a virgin birth, but

1160
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:33,679
there's not really any reason why that happened. It's just

1161
01:04:34,599 --> 01:04:38,079
it's because Islam is a copy paste cut from Christianity

1162
01:04:38,159 --> 01:04:40,679
and Judaism, so it's kind of a mix. So they

1163
01:04:40,679 --> 01:04:42,679
do believe in a virgin birth. They believe that Jesus

1164
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,199
was born from Mary, but there's no real reason why

1165
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:48,800
that's the case. In Islamic theology, there's not really an

1166
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:51,519
explanation for what the word Messiah even means, even though

1167
01:04:51,519 --> 01:04:54,639
they think Jesus Messiah.

1168
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 9: Interesting. Well maybe some of them will.

1169
01:04:59,159 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 25: Well, actually, the Muslims and Hindus seem to be pretty

1170
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,920
hard pressed on their religion, so and they can stay there.

1171
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:06,440
Speaker 9: That's fine.

1172
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 25: I'm not here to to kind of grab anybody over

1173
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:13,719
to the Catholic Church or anything, but I just you know, yes,

1174
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:17,000
I'm here for the Catholic faith if anybody cares about that,

1175
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:19,760
but I will drop if if you'd like me to.

1176
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:20,559
Speaker 9: Thanks.

1177
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Good questions. Yeah, I'm an Orthodox Catholic,

1178
01:05:24,159 --> 01:05:27,400
so we're the real Catholics. Not trying to be rude,

1179
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:31,679
but that's that's what Orthodox Christianity is it the Orthodox

1180
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:36,679
Catholic Church, anybody else, any Roman Catholics. I'm a little

1181
01:05:36,719 --> 01:05:39,239
disappointed that only one Roman Catholic came out of all

1182
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:44,320
of these yappers, but I'm not surprised. That's usually what

1183
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:47,480
we get. That we don't usually get anybody who actually

1184
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:49,440
wants to come to discuss the issues. The one kid

1185
01:05:49,519 --> 01:06:00,480
that came that was it. And then all they have

1186
01:06:00,639 --> 01:06:06,199
is like two quote ways. They're like, well, Carol said

1187
01:06:06,239 --> 01:06:08,800
that he likes Muslims. That's literally what a guy's sending

1188
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:09,159
me right now.

1189
01:06:09,239 --> 01:06:09,920
Speaker 4: It's like, so what.

1190
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:15,400
Speaker 1: Orth of gaul?

1191
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:20,679
Speaker 26: Hey, so I have a question in regards to what

1192
01:06:20,719 --> 01:06:25,760
do you think about I know, the whole system in

1193
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:31,079
Orthodoxy and Catholicism is different. When they bring up Patriarch

1194
01:06:31,119 --> 01:06:38,639
Crill and the humanist comparing that to you know, Orthodoxy

1195
01:06:38,679 --> 01:06:39,639
and the Pope.

1196
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I mean there's two things to say here.

1197
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:48,000
First of all, none of the patriarchs are indefectible and infallible.

1198
01:06:48,079 --> 01:06:51,039
That's the teaching of the Roman Church about its Roman bishop.

1199
01:06:51,639 --> 01:06:55,440
And so it's not equivalent. They want it to be equivalent,

1200
01:06:55,519 --> 01:06:58,320
and it's just a two quote way, but they think

1201
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:02,760
it's a defeater when first of all, let's say for

1202
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:05,039
the argument that it is a defeater, well, then it's

1203
01:07:05,079 --> 01:07:07,679
a defeater for both positions, and Rome is still false,

1204
01:07:07,719 --> 01:07:10,639
you idiot. So it's like, if you think this is

1205
01:07:10,679 --> 01:07:13,119
a defeater by just turning it and saying that, well,

1206
01:07:13,199 --> 01:07:17,199
Curle says bad things too, well, then that is implying

1207
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:21,079
that Francis and all these people are also saying bad things,

1208
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:24,199
so they're all false. So it's first of all, it's

1209
01:07:24,239 --> 01:07:26,599
a stupid ass move to think that a too quoque

1210
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:30,920
proves anything. But it's also assuming that the Orthodox system

1211
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:33,599
is the same as the papal system, So they're missing

1212
01:07:33,639 --> 01:07:37,039
the whole point that it's a defeater for your system.

1213
01:07:37,159 --> 01:07:41,960
If you're indefectible bishop defects, I don't I can believe.

1214
01:07:42,159 --> 01:07:45,400
And we already know that every patriarch it has defected

1215
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:47,920
at some point in the history of the church. All

1216
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:51,599
the patriarchis have had heritics at some point, So what's

1217
01:07:52,239 --> 01:07:54,079
it's not even the gotcha that they think it is.

1218
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:57,559
Speaker 26: But that doesn't speak for the whole like Russian Church,

1219
01:07:57,679 --> 01:07:59,280
or for the whole orthodomy.

1220
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:03,440
Speaker 1: No, they think that like the it's like that the

1221
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:06,000
patriarchis are popes. They think it's like little popes. So

1222
01:08:06,039 --> 01:08:09,719
they think that everybody's underneath a patriarchate and the patriarchs

1223
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:12,320
are little popes, and if the patriarch does something, they

1224
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:15,519
don't understand that it's all decentralized. A patriarch is just

1225
01:08:15,559 --> 01:08:17,319
a canonical, privileged title. That's it.

1226
01:08:20,239 --> 01:08:22,279
Speaker 26: And they would say, well, then why do they have leaders.

1227
01:08:22,279 --> 01:08:25,000
What's the point of having leaders if you're not gonna

1228
01:08:25,119 --> 01:08:27,239
if they're going to be a humanists and not follow.

1229
01:08:31,279 --> 01:08:35,239
Speaker 1: Well, the Church has had bad leaders in the first

1230
01:08:35,319 --> 01:08:38,000
thousand years in many cases. So if a Roman Catholic

1231
01:08:38,039 --> 01:08:41,600
wants to make that line of argument and believes that

1232
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:43,680
the Church of the first thousand years is Roman Catholic,

1233
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:45,760
then that's a defeater for their own position. So that

1234
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:48,039
again it's stupid. Yeah, if you think the Roman Catholic

1235
01:08:48,159 --> 01:08:51,439
Church was the Church of the first thousand years, and

1236
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:53,119
you think the problems that you're laying out with the

1237
01:08:53,159 --> 01:08:57,319
patriarchis are defeaters, guess where the patriarchal the pentarchy system

1238
01:08:57,359 --> 01:09:00,600
comes from. The ecumenical councils of the first years. You

1239
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:05,159
guphus I was like, they don't understand that every time

1240
01:09:05,199 --> 01:09:07,840
they make this argument, if they think their church is

1241
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:09,520
the church of over sousand years, is the.

1242
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,479
Speaker 26: Defeat for the coy Yeah, I think they're not getting that.

1243
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:13,840
I think I don't know.

1244
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 1: No, they're not. It doesn't matter how they time you

1245
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:16,399
explain it, they don't get it.

1246
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:19,520
Speaker 26: I don't know, they don't care to look further, or

1247
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:22,079
I don't know. But do you think the sacraments and

1248
01:09:22,159 --> 01:09:26,279
the other church, like the Catholic Church are I don't

1249
01:09:26,279 --> 01:09:28,399
want to use the term ballid or invalid, but.

1250
01:09:30,319 --> 01:09:34,439
Speaker 1: I think valid invalid is Romancolic terminology that muddies the waters. Uh.

1251
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:38,439
So they can do the rituals correctly, but we don't

1252
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:41,920
automatically think that they're efficacious so that they have the

1253
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:46,119
grace that they signified. The church can determine like whether

1254
01:09:46,199 --> 01:09:48,479
or not the rituals need to be repeated. But what's

1255
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:52,279
funny is that even in the traditional Roman Catholic Augustinian mindset,

1256
01:09:52,359 --> 01:09:55,359
which is what they think they're all basing their sacramentology on,

1257
01:09:55,439 --> 01:09:59,479
Augustin believes that the sin of heresy and schiz them

1258
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:02,920
prevents the grace. So even in the Augustinian ext opera

1259
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:07,399
operatal model, even if the baptisms are quote valid and efficacious,

1260
01:10:07,479 --> 01:10:10,800
if you're baptized in heresy, being in heresy prevents you

1261
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:12,880
from actually getting the grace even though the grace is

1262
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:15,760
quote there. So even their own system doesn't work.

1263
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:20,000
Speaker 26: So the pope is probably in I mean you would

1264
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:21,199
say the pope is in heresy.

1265
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:23,720
Speaker 1: So the whole church, oh, I know, we do not

1266
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:26,359
believe the Roman Calley Church has the faith. They are heterodox,

1267
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:27,600
meaning they're outside.

1268
01:10:27,239 --> 01:10:30,279
Speaker 26: The completely like no, yes, oh.

1269
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:31,840
Speaker 1: It only takes one heresy to be outside the faith.

1270
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:35,319
That's the faith is the packaged deal. And ironically, get this,

1271
01:10:36,039 --> 01:10:39,520
before Vatican two, Roman Catholic theologies said the exact same thing.

1272
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:43,399
You can reset these Cognitium and Mestici Corporus, two famous

1273
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:46,520
Roman Catholic and cyclicals, one by Leelald thirteenth the other

1274
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:50,520
by Pious A. Twelfth. They actually already say that if

1275
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:55,119
you deny one of the dogmas, you're outside the faith. So,

1276
01:10:55,159 --> 01:10:58,039
in other words, I can't be a Roman Catholic in

1277
01:10:58,119 --> 01:11:01,199
terms of traditional Catholic theology and be like, I'm Roman

1278
01:11:01,239 --> 01:11:03,279
Caloch but I don't believe the Imaculate conception, but I

1279
01:11:03,319 --> 01:11:06,960
believe everything else. If you deny. If you deny, I know,

1280
01:11:07,239 --> 01:11:10,159
but that's not consistent with their own theology. If you

1281
01:11:10,239 --> 01:11:13,600
deny one dogma, you're outside the faith. That's their theology.

1282
01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:15,399
Speaker 26: They don't even know that, So then there can't be

1283
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:17,960
healing right in their church.

1284
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 1: That's the whole point of why this is such a

1285
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:24,279
dangerous thing. Like it's not just quibbling over the words

1286
01:11:24,279 --> 01:11:28,000
of Vatican two. They have lost the healing of the

1287
01:11:28,079 --> 01:11:31,760
sacraments and of the faith by all of these crazy

1288
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:35,119
heresies and all this nonsense and madness. I mean, it

1289
01:11:35,119 --> 01:11:38,479
should be obvious everybody that the whole like the rampant

1290
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:41,960
homosexuality must the clergy and the pedophilia, is a clear

1291
01:11:42,079 --> 01:11:46,159
sign of curse, like their curse. Dude, Like, can you

1292
01:11:46,199 --> 01:11:49,199
not see that with spiritual discernment that if this institution

1293
01:11:49,399 --> 01:11:52,760
is a giant money laundering Vatican bank scam.

1294
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:56,039
Speaker 26: Full of do you think that their church produced saints

1295
01:11:56,159 --> 01:11:58,680
like their saints? Are theyy different from our saints?

1296
01:11:59,159 --> 01:12:02,560
Speaker 1: No, you can't do saints without the uncreated energies which

1297
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:05,000
are found in the Orthodox sacraments, in the life of

1298
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:05,840
the Orthodox.

1299
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:07,600
Speaker 26: Church, even the saints in the past, like all the

1300
01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:10,680
like Padre Perrot and all of them are they like

1301
01:12:11,359 --> 01:12:11,800
were they?

1302
01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:12,680
Speaker 6: No?

1303
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:14,960
Speaker 1: If you know? Again, so the idea of an Orthodox

1304
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,720
saint is vastly different from what Roman Catholics think saints are.

1305
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:24,760
Contrast the life of you know, Basil Gregory, uh, you know,

1306
01:12:25,159 --> 01:12:29,239
Paul Simon, the New Theologian. It's vastly different from the

1307
01:12:29,399 --> 01:12:34,239
histrionics of you know, Francis of a CC and you know, no,

1308
01:12:34,279 --> 01:12:36,920
it's totally different. We don't have all this not blood

1309
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:38,479
letting and all this crazy stuff.

1310
01:12:39,119 --> 01:12:41,560
Speaker 26: Okay, do you recommend any books you can just throw

1311
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:42,359
out there.

1312
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 1: On what specifically?

1313
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:50,239
Speaker 26: What I like, you know, the Catholic an Orthodox system.

1314
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:53,680
Speaker 1: And well, I mean there's a good critique of the

1315
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:57,000
papacy by Michael Welton called Two Paths. That's a really

1316
01:12:57,079 --> 01:12:59,560
good readable book. Okay, so I was I would start

1317
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:02,399
with something like that and then just read my just

1318
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:05,680
read Pomezansky's Orthodox Dogmatics to get a good basic idea

1319
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:12,439
of Orthodox sacramentology. I wish what some of these Roman

1320
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:17,479
Catholics would actually discuss. Why just saying that Kirol said

1321
01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:21,680
something bad, It is not it doesn't work, but they

1322
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:24,520
won't do it. They just want to have like a gotcha,

1323
01:13:25,399 --> 01:13:26,199
go ahead, and I'm mute.

1324
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:29,479
Speaker 25: Oh okay, sorry, yeah, I think there is a little

1325
01:13:29,479 --> 01:13:33,000
bit of delay. Can we back up to where the

1326
01:13:33,159 --> 01:13:38,560
orthochiic just came up? Are you saying that our Catholic

1327
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:44,319
saint padre Pio is not a saint or how do

1328
01:13:44,359 --> 01:13:45,000
you look at that?

1329
01:13:45,239 --> 01:13:48,119
Speaker 1: No, we do not accept Roman Catholic saints. Correct.

1330
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:52,479
Speaker 25: Interesting, So padre Pios stigmata means what to you?

1331
01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:52,960
Speaker 9: Nothing?

1332
01:13:53,119 --> 01:13:57,319
Speaker 1: Or I mean, I don't know that he had stigmata

1333
01:13:57,399 --> 01:13:59,479
other than that Roman Catholic claim that he did. Do

1334
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:04,439
you believe in all the religions and mystical gurus claims

1335
01:14:04,479 --> 01:14:06,319
that they can do magic, mumbo and jembo?

1336
01:14:07,199 --> 01:14:07,359
Speaker 19: No?

1337
01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:09,600
Speaker 25: But I mean in terms of just taking Padre po

1338
01:14:10,279 --> 01:14:13,680
just as an example, I mean, have you ever done

1339
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:14,520
research into him?

1340
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:14,800
Speaker 19: Or no?

1341
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:19,119
Speaker 1: I have a fact. I used to be a traditional Romancolic.

1342
01:14:19,239 --> 01:14:20,880
So yes, I know quite a bit about Him've read

1343
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:21,920
a whole book on him.

1344
01:14:22,319 --> 01:14:24,840
Speaker 25: Oh okay, so you used to be a Catholic. Okay,

1345
01:14:25,119 --> 01:14:27,680
I'm not familiar with you, so just I'm sorry about that.

1346
01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:30,319
Speaker 1: But that's fine. I'm just telling you. Yeah, I was

1347
01:14:30,319 --> 01:14:33,039
a traditional Galic for about ten, maybe eight or nine.

1348
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:35,119
Speaker 9: Years, okay, and then what made you leave?

1349
01:14:35,199 --> 01:14:38,439
Speaker 1: If you don't mind me asking some of the contradictions

1350
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:41,079
between the pre Vatican two and post Vatican two teaching

1351
01:14:41,159 --> 01:14:43,439
is one of the probably the biggest issue.

1352
01:14:44,119 --> 01:14:46,840
Speaker 25: Okay, So can we just talk about is it okay

1353
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:48,079
if we talk about Padre Pio?

1354
01:14:48,159 --> 01:14:53,680
Speaker 1: Is that okay? I don't mind about Padre Pio. But

1355
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:58,880
what I'm gonna say is what the claims of these

1356
01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:04,479
phenomena can't prove the religion when literally every religion or

1357
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:07,880
cult out there has similar types of claims. So how

1358
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:09,600
could that be the thing that proves the religion?

1359
01:15:10,279 --> 01:15:13,600
Speaker 25: Well, I mean considering that, I mean if obviously because

1360
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:15,439
you were Catholic and you've done research on it prior

1361
01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:19,079
hare Po, I mean he literally had this. I mean

1362
01:15:19,119 --> 01:15:22,800
it's been scientifically proven as well as you know, just

1363
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:25,239
proven anyway, just that he had.

1364
01:15:25,399 --> 01:15:27,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know, do you know what a Muslim

1365
01:15:27,279 --> 01:15:28,199
says about the Qoran?

1366
01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:29,039
Speaker 7: No?

1367
01:15:29,079 --> 01:15:30,119
Speaker 9: I don't care, but go ahead and.

1368
01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:34,000
Speaker 1: Scientifically proven that there's miracles to show that the Qoran

1369
01:15:34,159 --> 01:15:37,159
has to come from a law. Like the Muslims use

1370
01:15:37,239 --> 01:15:41,520
this argument for like ten years online, like between two

1371
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:45,760
thousand and five to twenty fifteen. So the point is

1372
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:48,760
that that's not a good argument for why the religion

1373
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:53,239
is true, because it's just there's no way to It's

1374
01:15:53,279 --> 01:15:56,319
a non sequitor from the claims about the person and

1375
01:15:56,359 --> 01:16:00,439
even claims that there's quote scientific proof to therefore the

1376
01:16:00,479 --> 01:16:06,760
religion is true because every group has the same competing claim, right.

1377
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:08,760
Speaker 25: No, I mean I understand that. I think it's just

1378
01:16:09,319 --> 01:16:12,159
when I look at somebody like Padre Pio as a

1379
01:16:12,359 --> 01:16:15,920
as a Catholic, I mean, how do you not even.

1380
01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:18,600
Speaker 1: I guess, lets that would just be purely subjective. It

1381
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:20,720
would be begging the question because the thing in question

1382
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:23,880
is is it legitimate? And is he a true saint?

1383
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:27,720
And it just I mean, you're already it's already assuming

1384
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:29,880
the Catholic idea of what a saint is that a

1385
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:32,720
saint is somebody who dumps buckets of blood out of

1386
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:35,640
their body or something, and they don't just literally just

1387
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:37,720
follow what the teacher of the church fathers are for

1388
01:16:37,720 --> 01:16:41,359
the first thousand years, like that's what a saint is. Right.

1389
01:16:41,399 --> 01:16:43,079
Speaker 25: But I mean, as far as if we're going to

1390
01:16:43,159 --> 01:16:45,960
take Padre Pio, I mean he literally was. I mean

1391
01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:48,720
that the Vatican hid him for ten years because of

1392
01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:52,159
his stigmana. So they weren't even quite sure themselves what

1393
01:16:52,199 --> 01:16:53,359
to do with him, and so they were like.

1394
01:16:53,359 --> 01:16:56,279
Speaker 1: Let's again, I don't the Vatican has a history of lying,

1395
01:16:56,319 --> 01:16:57,600
so I don't even know if any of that's true.

1396
01:16:57,600 --> 01:16:59,119
How are we supposed to know that all that's true?

1397
01:16:59,279 --> 01:17:02,520
The Vatican's an extremely corrupt organization and entity. I don't

1398
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:04,079
trust anything about against.

1399
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,800
Speaker 9: Those, Okay, I mean that's that. Yeah, I understand that.

1400
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:09,600
Speaker 25: But I mean, if you're you can read ten books

1401
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:12,720
about Pajepo and his life and they're all the same.

1402
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:15,039
And yes, I know that that doesn't prove anything to

1403
01:17:15,199 --> 01:17:17,800
you or to anybody else, but I mean as far

1404
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:18,640
as he I mean.

1405
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:21,319
Speaker 1: And so look, don't you understand that there has to

1406
01:17:21,359 --> 01:17:25,159
be a better way to delineate between competing claims like this,

1407
01:17:25,720 --> 01:17:29,439
Because every religion, every cult that Cybaba has followers in

1408
01:17:29,439 --> 01:17:32,720
India that will swear by his powers in terms of

1409
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:37,680
his miracles, right, and so there, I'm sure there's Hindu

1410
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:43,439
theologians that have quote scientific papers and proofs. So if

1411
01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:47,920
there's a million different claims and so called scientific proofs,

1412
01:17:48,479 --> 01:17:51,640
there has to be some other way to delineate between,

1413
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:55,000
which is the true and which is the false. It

1414
01:17:55,039 --> 01:17:59,600
could never be done through infinite regressions of miracle claims

1415
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:02,319
and science tipic papers. It just it doesn't get anywhere.

1416
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:04,159
So there has to be a better way to do it. Well,

1417
01:18:04,159 --> 01:18:05,680
the best, the easiest way to do is to see

1418
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:09,560
which religion contradiction which one doesn't. I'll talk about contradiction

1419
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:11,319
an internal critique sense.

1420
01:18:12,079 --> 01:18:15,119
Speaker 25: Okay, So in the Orthodox religion, did they recognize the

1421
01:18:15,119 --> 01:18:17,159
blessed Mother as as the same as we do in

1422
01:18:17,199 --> 01:18:17,920
the Catholic faith.

1423
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:24,079
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, Mary is the Theotoko, she's the god bearer,

1424
01:18:24,119 --> 01:18:26,560
she's the Mother of God. But we don't believe that

1425
01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:30,520
she was immaculately conceived. She's not some sort of like, uh,

1426
01:18:30,880 --> 01:18:33,960
goddess or something. And I think sometimes Retolism tends in

1427
01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:34,479
that direction.

1428
01:18:35,279 --> 01:18:37,319
Speaker 25: Oh no, I mean we don't. We don't think she

1429
01:18:37,399 --> 01:18:40,399
was markedly conceived. I mean she was conceived within with

1430
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:41,800
she was shared full grace.

1431
01:18:42,119 --> 01:18:45,239
Speaker 1: No, no, you believe in the maculate exception she was

1432
01:18:45,319 --> 01:18:47,760
immaculately conceived. That's a dogma in your church.

1433
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:50,199
Speaker 25: Oh yes, I'm sorry, I thought you meant like her,

1434
01:18:50,279 --> 01:18:54,319
but you mean Jesus being no.

1435
01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:57,840
Speaker 1: No, her, she is immaculately conceived. Jesus is born of

1436
01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:04,000
a virgin. The immaculate conception is her exemption from original

1437
01:19:04,039 --> 01:19:05,479
sin and Roman Calloy theology.

1438
01:19:06,199 --> 01:19:08,199
Speaker 9: Oh I see, so Orthodox doesn't believe that.

1439
01:19:08,279 --> 01:19:10,439
Speaker 25: So then you don't hold her in the same as

1440
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:12,439
the highest esteem is as we do.

1441
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:14,960
Speaker 1: She is the queen of saints, she is the queen

1442
01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:18,359
of Heaven. She's just not immaculately conceived because she died,

1443
01:19:19,319 --> 01:19:21,520
and everyone who dies is a son or a daughter

1444
01:19:21,560 --> 01:19:24,199
of Adam. If she went to sleep, and if the

1445
01:19:24,279 --> 01:19:26,920
Roman Callolic church has the feast of door mission, then

1446
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:29,359
she died. Why did she die because she's the son

1447
01:19:29,399 --> 01:19:32,520
of Adam. Well, then she's not immaculately conceived and she's

1448
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:34,000
not accepted from original sin.

1449
01:19:36,079 --> 01:19:40,000
Speaker 25: Interesting, okay, so but then oh yeah, okay, I see

1450
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:40,479
what you're saying.

1451
01:19:41,119 --> 01:19:44,399
Speaker 9: Okay, that's that's fine. Thanks, I'll drop from speaker.

1452
01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 1: Oh well, those are great questions. It's open for him

1453
01:19:58,920 --> 01:20:00,640
if anybody wants to come up. None of these Roman

1454
01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:04,279
galaxies if I'm not much just uh, it's all all

1455
01:20:04,319 --> 01:20:06,000
the ones that I argue about today, and I'll talk

1456
01:20:06,039 --> 01:20:12,119
about anyone, any any anyone, any of the ones that

1457
01:20:12,159 --> 01:20:18,439
I got intok with today. Uh, if you would like

1458
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:22,760
to talk about the subject matter. Uh, here's Ash, what's

1459
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:26,159
up in Here's a couple of people. We'll go to

1460
01:20:26,199 --> 01:20:28,239
Ash the whole stuff the other guys.

1461
01:20:30,399 --> 01:20:32,760
Speaker 27: Hey, So I was speaking with my wife today. We

1462
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:36,560
were just you know, rolling around and uh, going around

1463
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:38,279
on the buggy around the neighborhood, and we were talking

1464
01:20:38,279 --> 01:20:43,039
about how, uh, when it comes to Protestantism and and

1465
01:20:43,079 --> 01:20:45,600
their their justification for their canon.

1466
01:20:46,039 --> 01:20:47,159
Speaker 7: I had an interesting thought.

1467
01:20:47,239 --> 01:20:51,279
Speaker 27: I was like, if they're not basing their cannon off

1468
01:20:51,319 --> 01:20:53,640
of tradition, you know a lot of them have to go, oh, well,

1469
01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:55,079
it's just the most accurate cannon.

1470
01:20:55,159 --> 01:20:55,359
Speaker 1: You know.

1471
01:20:55,359 --> 01:20:57,960
Speaker 27: They like to make kind of like scholarly art arguments

1472
01:20:57,960 --> 01:21:03,119
and kind of post enlightenment have presuppositions. I was like,

1473
01:21:03,520 --> 01:21:08,319
there would be no like moral difference between a Protestant

1474
01:21:08,399 --> 01:21:12,159
who accepts all sixty six books and then this other

1475
01:21:12,159 --> 01:21:15,399
Protestant who's like, yeah, I accept like sixty four. I

1476
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:18,359
just you know, for example, don't accept Revelation or Hebrews

1477
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:20,640
because you know, the evidence isn't there.

1478
01:21:21,359 --> 01:21:24,319
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. We made this point up many times, all right.

1479
01:21:24,359 --> 01:21:25,720
I was just wondering what you thought about that? And

1480
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:27,800
if it would be a good you know, yeah, that's

1481
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:29,920
a great argument. In fact, I mean that's essentially what

1482
01:21:30,039 --> 01:21:33,039
Luther did when Lucter started to say that other you know,

1483
01:21:33,199 --> 01:21:35,640
some of these books shouldn't be here. Totally agree. Guess

1484
01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:36,680
a good fellow, what's up?

1485
01:21:46,239 --> 01:21:46,520
Speaker 7: Hello?

1486
01:21:48,079 --> 01:21:48,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's up?

1487
01:21:49,479 --> 01:21:49,640
Speaker 7: Hey?

1488
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:53,319
Speaker 14: J glad I can jump on here and chat with you.

1489
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:58,920
So I've been listening to Refuting Oriental Orthodoxy, the series

1490
01:21:59,000 --> 01:22:02,760
you guys did, and just background. I come from like

1491
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:08,760
a Pentecostal oneness modalist background, been exploring Orthodoxy for the

1492
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:13,399
last three years. Uh had a question about, you know,

1493
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:21,199
the person versus nature distinction, and uh, okay, I know

1494
01:22:21,239 --> 01:22:23,760
you in that Refuting arthor you see, you guys were

1495
01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:26,439
kind of laying out the metaphysics of the Orthodox Church

1496
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:32,159
and the uh, the fact that so the human nature

1497
01:22:32,239 --> 01:22:36,520
is something that's shared across all human beings. That's it's

1498
01:22:36,520 --> 01:22:40,279
something that's shared. And then individual.

1499
01:22:40,439 --> 01:22:42,399
Speaker 1: It's a it's a it's a universal yeah.

1500
01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:49,159
Speaker 14: Then and then individual hypostaces is the identities right or persons?

1501
01:22:49,439 --> 01:22:52,600
Speaker 1: Yes, it's correct, it's the individual subject, the it's the

1502
01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:55,119
it's the mode in which the nature exists, which is

1503
01:22:55,159 --> 01:22:57,399
in the mode of the individual subject or the person.

1504
01:22:57,520 --> 01:23:01,680
Speaker 14: Correct, right, So I mean I have I have issues

1505
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:05,560
with with modalism. But what I'm trying to kind of

1506
01:23:05,640 --> 01:23:10,039
understand is, how do you get around saying that the

1507
01:23:10,039 --> 01:23:14,279
Father's Time and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons with

1508
01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:19,840
let's share a divine nature. How does that now make

1509
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:25,239
them three gods the same way that three person human

1510
01:23:25,319 --> 01:23:31,399
persons who share a human nature are not three distinct persons.

1511
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:34,920
Speaker 1: Right. So if you read the Cappadocians, like Besil's letter,

1512
01:23:35,319 --> 01:23:38,279
I think it's thirty eight where he goes into this distinction,

1513
01:23:38,720 --> 01:23:41,800
he just he just makes it as an analogy. So

1514
01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:45,439
humans are just are created, they begin to be, They're

1515
01:23:45,439 --> 01:23:50,079
in time and space, they're discrete, they're separate. So it's

1516
01:23:50,159 --> 01:23:54,840
just an analogy that humans have a singular nature, but

1517
01:23:54,920 --> 01:23:58,640
they're distinct in person. It's an analogy to the trinity,

1518
01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:01,319
and analogy means that not every aspect of it matches

1519
01:24:01,399 --> 01:24:03,279
up one to one, some of it matches up as

1520
01:24:03,319 --> 01:24:08,840
some of a dozen. So if it was unifical predication,

1521
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:12,920
it would be what you're saying, right. So arians make

1522
01:24:12,960 --> 01:24:17,640
this argument because arians say, well, if God is you

1523
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:24,079
know cause and the Father causes the son. Then causation

1524
01:24:24,319 --> 01:24:27,760
requires time, because every father who causes a son is

1525
01:24:27,800 --> 01:24:32,720
in time. That's based on what we call unifical reasoning.

1526
01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:35,359
That would mean that it's used in the same sense,

1527
01:24:36,159 --> 01:24:38,800
And we don't believe in unifical reasoning because that would

1528
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:41,479
be arian, but we would say it's analogical. In other words,

1529
01:24:41,479 --> 01:24:44,840
there's an analogy between the way that a father causes

1530
01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:47,720
a son and that the father is the source of

1531
01:24:47,760 --> 01:24:51,039
the son. But there's other aspects of it which don't

1532
01:24:51,079 --> 01:24:54,800
match up to God, namely the temporal relations. So the

1533
01:24:54,840 --> 01:24:57,399
father didn't start to become a father at some point

1534
01:24:57,439 --> 01:25:00,960
in time. The father was always eternal, generating the sun

1535
01:25:01,039 --> 01:25:05,279
and hence eternal generation. So the usage of person in

1536
01:25:05,359 --> 01:25:09,239
nature amongst human beings is an analogy to the person

1537
01:25:09,359 --> 01:25:11,880
nature distinction in the trinity. And it's not unifical.

1538
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:16,680
Speaker 14: Okay, what would be a good you know, coming from

1539
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:20,800
a Protestant background, there's always kind of proof texts and

1540
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:24,399
everything else and involved. I'm just wondering, is there a

1541
01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:28,399
good source I could read that would lay out, like

1542
01:25:28,439 --> 01:25:33,399
you said, first of all, like the claim, which I

1543
01:25:33,399 --> 01:25:36,079
don't have a problem with it, but just to substantiate

1544
01:25:36,119 --> 01:25:41,079
the claim that God was always the Father, Like, how

1545
01:25:41,079 --> 01:25:44,520
do I substantiate that in scripture?

1546
01:25:46,439 --> 01:25:48,399
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean you could get a good, a good

1547
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:53,560
easy book to read, like Palmazansky's Orthodox Dogmatic Theology. Most

1548
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:56,600
of that is really just going through the scriptural text

1549
01:25:57,039 --> 01:25:59,600
for the Orthodox positions, and you're going to get you know,

1550
01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:02,319
certainly a lot of positions about the eternality of the

1551
01:26:02,319 --> 01:26:05,079
fatherhood of Father, of eternality, fatherhood of God the Father,

1552
01:26:06,199 --> 01:26:09,039
and uh separate though from that. If you're looking for

1553
01:26:09,079 --> 01:26:14,319
somebody that addresses that specific issue, uh, Athanacius is I

1554
01:26:14,359 --> 01:26:17,680
think it's the discourses against the Arians is actually addressing

1555
01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:20,680
that very issue because one of the arguments that his teacher,

1556
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:25,399
Saint Alexander made against the Arians was that if God

1557
01:26:25,520 --> 01:26:28,760
was eternally the Father, then that requires by necessity he

1558
01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:31,000
eternally has a son, or else the word father makes

1559
01:26:31,039 --> 01:26:35,680
no sense. So this is a pretty strong rhetorical and

1560
01:26:35,800 --> 01:26:39,560
metaphysical argument against the Arians, because you know it, it

1561
01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:44,039
necessitates by by definition almost if God's eternally the father,

1562
01:26:44,159 --> 01:26:46,760
the father of who, right, So there's got to eternally

1563
01:26:46,800 --> 01:26:53,399
be a son. So excuse me. I would also say

1564
01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:57,079
you could read something like Vladimir Lowski's books to Mystical

1565
01:26:57,079 --> 01:27:01,079
Theology or Vision of God excuse me, vision of God. Uh,

1566
01:27:01,199 --> 01:27:08,000
those also cover these topics pretty extensively. Okay, Yeah, good questions,

1567
01:27:08,039 --> 01:27:08,760
So appreciate that.

1568
01:27:09,840 --> 01:27:14,399
Speaker 26: Uh, what's up, dude?

1569
01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:16,800
Speaker 1: Hello, what's on your mind?

1570
01:27:18,359 --> 01:27:18,720
Speaker 7: Did you?

1571
01:27:19,159 --> 01:27:23,359
Speaker 5: Did you already bring up the relativity of just making

1572
01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:27,319
the statements in Vatican two? So that anybody who the

1573
01:27:27,319 --> 01:27:36,159
Holy Spirit was just making words themselves be by themselves objective.

1574
01:27:38,720 --> 01:27:41,680
Speaker 1: Uh? I think Chase, when Chase was on here earlier,

1575
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:45,800
or maybe the guy before Chase said that, his conclusion

1576
01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:49,520
would be that the documents are thus relativized and the

1577
01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:53,720
theology of God is relativized if no stretate is correct.

1578
01:27:53,760 --> 01:27:55,840
And I think that's true. Now you're probably being a

1579
01:27:55,880 --> 01:28:01,560
little more specific with linguistic philosophy, but yeah.

1580
01:28:00,119 --> 01:28:03,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, because if you just say, you know, God is

1581
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:09,800
the Muslim God is the same as you know Christian God,

1582
01:28:10,560 --> 01:28:13,960
but it takes either a good or a bad pope,

1583
01:28:14,079 --> 01:28:17,880
or a good or a bad magisterium to interpret the words,

1584
01:28:18,199 --> 01:28:21,319
then the intention of what the way it was written

1585
01:28:21,760 --> 01:28:23,039
is irrelevant.

1586
01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:30,520
Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah, I think so. Temp. The last text ten

1587
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:32,680
sent me was kind of going in that direction where

1588
01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:36,720
he was trying to make a distinction between authorial intent

1589
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:39,920
and the exact words that are used. And he was

1590
01:28:39,960 --> 01:28:43,079
trying to argue that I don't even have to like

1591
01:28:43,199 --> 01:28:46,640
he thinks the intent of the authors was nefarious and

1592
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:50,439
malicious and ambiguous, but that the words can be just

1593
01:28:50,479 --> 01:28:54,319
simply re read and revised in an interpretive scheme to

1594
01:28:54,439 --> 01:28:56,600
make the orthodox, which I think is just silly.

1595
01:28:57,199 --> 01:29:00,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, that is that would never work in any other

1596
01:29:01,159 --> 01:29:03,640
I mean that would would would that even work in law.

1597
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:08,159
Speaker 1: Only in a only in a in a sophistical legal system.

1598
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:13,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, like that would be. And then this idea

1599
01:29:13,520 --> 01:29:18,159
of debating over whether there was a the before a

1600
01:29:18,199 --> 01:29:23,760
god or an ad in the sentence, like we've talked

1601
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:28,199
about before. That's like, you know, a teenager child debating

1602
01:29:28,239 --> 01:29:31,319
will Actually, I didn't say I was coming directly home

1603
01:29:31,399 --> 01:29:31,960
after I was.

1604
01:29:32,319 --> 01:29:34,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I said I was coming home, but I didn't

1605
01:29:34,319 --> 01:29:35,960
say when I was coming home.

1606
01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:40,079
Speaker 5: Yeah, I just wanted to see.

1607
01:29:40,199 --> 01:29:42,760
Speaker 1: No, that's a great that's a great point, John. In fact, yeah,

1608
01:29:42,760 --> 01:29:46,880
and no other disciplines would this count except for vaticate

1609
01:29:46,960 --> 01:29:52,520
to theology and RBIC. But also it also speaks to uh,

1610
01:29:53,199 --> 01:29:58,560
like the again the relativizing of this, because if that's

1611
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:01,399
the case here, then well then what's wrong with what

1612
01:30:01,439 --> 01:30:03,760
all the modernists did in the Roman Catholic Church in

1613
01:30:03,800 --> 01:30:07,079
the twentieth century by rewording all the other stuff? Like

1614
01:30:07,119 --> 01:30:12,600
why does it have to only be reworded or reread

1615
01:30:13,039 --> 01:30:15,840
in a conservative sense? Like what stops it from being

1616
01:30:15,880 --> 01:30:18,720
read in some other liberal sense? And that's and that's

1617
01:30:18,760 --> 01:30:22,079
exactly the point that I think you made this point too, John,

1618
01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:26,000
which is that that's why it does matter how the

1619
01:30:26,079 --> 01:30:29,239
popes act after Vatican Two, because if they act on

1620
01:30:29,319 --> 01:30:33,119
the basis of these documents in the way that I'm saying,

1621
01:30:33,279 --> 01:30:35,560
which is that they go pray in mosques towards Mecca,

1622
01:30:36,479 --> 01:30:40,039
then that is relevant to how the documents are worded.

1623
01:30:40,319 --> 01:30:42,640
It's not it's not irrelevant to the documents, which is

1624
01:30:42,640 --> 01:30:43,760
what they have to try to say.

1625
01:30:44,279 --> 01:30:49,199
Speaker 5: Well, also, that means that the religion see and this

1626
01:30:49,399 --> 01:30:53,239
is unfortunately I don't I don't say this like like oh,

1627
01:30:53,279 --> 01:30:55,239
and I know you're the same way too. It's not

1628
01:30:55,279 --> 01:30:59,520
like we're it's we're gloating like, oh, we're gonna school

1629
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:02,960
these RCAs, and it's it's not a mean thing. It's

1630
01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:05,640
like you unfortunately have to say, hey, guess what.

1631
01:31:06,359 --> 01:31:06,600
Speaker 7: I know.

1632
01:31:06,680 --> 01:31:11,119
Speaker 5: You think that you're going to your TLM and you're

1633
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:14,840
you know, getting the Mass with the most grace because

1634
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:20,359
it was, you know, so reverent. But actually the church

1635
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:25,520
that you believe in is that church is the Novus

1636
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:29,039
Orto Church. That church is the Skittles Church. That church

1637
01:31:29,880 --> 01:31:34,079
is the Vatican Bank Church. The TLM is like a

1638
01:31:34,319 --> 01:31:35,279
is like a delusion.

1639
01:31:35,920 --> 01:31:42,840
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, well they're shutting down TLM, so exactly.

1640
01:31:44,840 --> 01:31:48,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, but some somedays, some trad pope's gonna come along

1641
01:31:48,960 --> 01:31:53,439
and he's gonna interpret Vatican two in the correct way,

1642
01:31:54,119 --> 01:31:57,960
and then once he does that, then we'll be able

1643
01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:00,199
to have the TLM.

1644
01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:02,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. I heard all of that in two thousand and

1645
01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:06,560
six or whatever it was seven, when Rat Singer was coming.

1646
01:32:06,600 --> 01:32:08,920
Oh he's going to bring to TLM and he did

1647
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:11,720
a moto proprio. I've been there, done that.

1648
01:32:15,279 --> 01:32:17,239
Speaker 5: All right, we'll see if anybody else wants to talk

1649
01:32:17,279 --> 01:32:22,800
about those. Yeah, the TLM or trads who are waking

1650
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:26,239
up to this unfortunate you know, you're gonna have to

1651
01:32:26,279 --> 01:32:28,640
go through a rough period where you're gonna have to

1652
01:32:28,720 --> 01:32:32,600
realize all that stuff. I just know that this is

1653
01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:37,520
done in with you know, with good intentions.

1654
01:32:39,279 --> 01:32:41,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's what I was saying earlier, is like,

1655
01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:45,920
if you buy into this perennialist stuff like, it would

1656
01:32:45,960 --> 01:32:49,119
lead you right into perennialism. So and some of the

1657
01:32:49,199 --> 01:32:52,159
Romancalloic tradcats just go actually do go in that direction.

1658
01:32:52,239 --> 01:32:55,159
I've done several over the years that they went from

1659
01:32:55,359 --> 01:32:59,920
Vatican to those trataate perennialism into the straight up perennialisms.

1660
01:33:00,399 --> 01:33:02,079
And I don't see why it wouldn't lead you that

1661
01:33:02,119 --> 01:33:22,560
way if you go that route, Patriot, Yeah, I got

1662
01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:23,199
on mute.

1663
01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:28,319
Speaker 23: Man, uh jay may I may I respond to your

1664
01:33:28,399 --> 01:33:34,600
Vatican two critiques. Sure, okay, Uh Lifeline Catholic here, Uh

1665
01:33:34,760 --> 01:33:42,760
sense baptism and appreciate nice meeting you. So I'm gonna

1666
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:45,520
give you the very basics of Vatican two, and I'm

1667
01:33:45,520 --> 01:33:48,039
gonna use an anecdote to kind of push this forward.

1668
01:33:48,279 --> 01:33:48,640
Speaker 1: Okay.

1669
01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:53,600
Speaker 23: So I've heard the orthodoxy debate between the the TLM

1670
01:33:53,680 --> 01:33:58,600
and Vatican two sucks, and mattig into is liberalism whatever.

1671
01:33:58,479 --> 01:33:59,359
Speaker 4: Blah blah blah whatever.

1672
01:34:00,479 --> 01:34:03,680
Speaker 23: Well, you're gonna penalize the novisorder and so on. And

1673
01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:07,800
so forth and modernity and whatever. Then you're gonna have

1674
01:34:07,840 --> 01:34:12,359
to penalize me for a similar situation because the the

1675
01:34:12,359 --> 01:34:14,680
TLM bros Are going to be very mad at me

1676
01:34:14,760 --> 01:34:19,079
because I attended a Mass and Chinese. Okay, Vatican two

1677
01:34:19,199 --> 01:34:23,039
is not some uh liberalization of the faith. It is

1678
01:34:23,079 --> 01:34:26,039
a moving forward to the church. It is putting the

1679
01:34:26,159 --> 01:34:29,279
Church in the English language of Americans.

1680
01:34:29,399 --> 01:34:34,039
Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, that's that's only that's only one thing. Well,

1681
01:34:34,079 --> 01:34:35,119
I mean that's that's.

1682
01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:38,920
Speaker 4: A very important thing. Though very important.

1683
01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:42,079
Speaker 1: The Orthodox Church has always done it in the vernacular,

1684
01:34:42,159 --> 01:34:43,079
so we would agree with that.

1685
01:34:43,840 --> 01:34:47,159
Speaker 23: Well now, but because there there's a faction and the

1686
01:34:47,319 --> 01:34:50,439
and and the cat and the Catholic body the church,

1687
01:34:51,079 --> 01:34:52,199
that's all t l.

1688
01:34:52,279 --> 01:34:53,640
Speaker 5: M taling no disorder.

1689
01:34:56,520 --> 01:34:56,640
Speaker 1: Mm.

1690
01:34:58,560 --> 01:35:02,800
Speaker 4: But I'm arguing, wait, what are you arguing?

1691
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:07,680
Speaker 1: I'm Orthodox. I'm arguing that Vaticans who has theological contradictions,

1692
01:35:07,760 --> 01:35:08,640
I don't care about the.

1693
01:35:08,640 --> 01:35:12,119
Speaker 4: Vernocular like what like what the Hindu thing?

1694
01:35:12,960 --> 01:35:13,079
Speaker 27: Uh?

1695
01:35:13,479 --> 01:35:17,800
Speaker 1: Well, among many, one would be that it encourages interfaith

1696
01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:21,199
prayer and gathering, and that's a direct contradiction from Mortalium

1697
01:35:21,199 --> 01:35:23,399
animals in nineteen twenty nine.

1698
01:35:24,039 --> 01:35:27,000
Speaker 23: Well, the ecumenical councils are not infallible.

1699
01:35:28,199 --> 01:35:33,920
Speaker 1: Clarification, Are you serious? Okay, yes, correct, No, Ecumenical councils

1700
01:35:33,960 --> 01:35:36,680
are magisterium and they are infallible in the Roman Gallic Church.

1701
01:35:36,720 --> 01:35:41,960
So you have no idea what you're talking about. No, yes, literally,

1702
01:35:42,119 --> 01:35:54,920
no idea what you're talking about. Nine nine nine. I

1703
01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:57,560
want people to take note of that that the people

1704
01:35:57,560 --> 01:36:00,319
that we're dealing with, that we're debating with, don't even

1705
01:36:00,399 --> 01:36:05,159
know if Roman Catholic theology believes that cumenical councils are

1706
01:36:05,239 --> 01:36:13,279
infallible in the Roman system. That's Tilly says, thank you, brother.

1707
01:36:16,840 --> 01:36:20,000
Speaker 28: You know, I just wanted to share one thing on

1708
01:36:20,000 --> 01:36:23,000
on the Buddhist side, just because it relates to Hinduism.

1709
01:36:23,079 --> 01:36:29,199
So the practice of Buddhism is is actually one part

1710
01:36:29,239 --> 01:36:33,880
of Christianity, and that is thou shalt not want It's

1711
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:38,680
a it's a very big it's very big in Christianity.

1712
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:42,319
It's actually underrated. How important that is. Thou shalt not

1713
01:36:42,359 --> 01:36:44,840
want anything but a relationship with the Father.

1714
01:36:45,399 --> 01:36:48,000
Speaker 1: And and I'm not I'm not trying to rude, but

1715
01:36:48,079 --> 01:36:49,239
that I don't really have anything to do with what

1716
01:36:49,680 --> 01:36:58,000
we're talking about today, Jacob, what's up. Hello, can you

1717
01:36:58,000 --> 01:37:00,279
hear me? Yeah?

1718
01:37:00,680 --> 01:37:03,439
Speaker 29: Okay, yeah, So I've been dealing with Mormons, right. I

1719
01:37:03,479 --> 01:37:05,920
don't know if we can get into about like the

1720
01:37:06,119 --> 01:37:08,800
one of the many, but I've been running it on them, right,

1721
01:37:09,439 --> 01:37:12,319
and the most coherent answer I've got in is that

1722
01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:17,279
the three share like a relational unity, and that that

1723
01:37:17,399 --> 01:37:19,119
somehow accounts for the one.

1724
01:37:19,880 --> 01:37:24,880
Speaker 1: You wouldn't say that's correct, right, that's still by definition polytheism.

1725
01:37:27,359 --> 01:37:29,199
Speaker 29: And to solve the one of the many has to

1726
01:37:29,199 --> 01:37:34,840
be ontological unity, because if it's not ontological united, it

1727
01:37:34,840 --> 01:37:36,039
wouldn't be one.

1728
01:37:36,239 --> 01:37:42,720
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, I would say they're not ultimately one because

1729
01:37:43,720 --> 01:37:47,119
you know, human beings are separate beings, but they're not

1730
01:37:47,279 --> 01:37:50,640
ontologically one. I mean, their nature is one, but they're

1731
01:37:50,640 --> 01:37:55,319
still separate beings. So I would say a better argument

1732
01:37:55,479 --> 01:37:58,720
might be about grounding the one and the many in

1733
01:37:58,760 --> 01:38:01,560
a single mind. And that's why we believe that God

1734
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:04,199
has a one mind, even though there's three hypostases that

1735
01:38:04,239 --> 01:38:07,359
one divine mind exists in the mode of the three

1736
01:38:07,399 --> 01:38:12,079
persons that possess it. So the the mind of God

1737
01:38:12,159 --> 01:38:18,520
is a better means of grounding than I mean, I

1738
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:21,560
don't even see how three separate beings could ground something

1739
01:38:22,720 --> 01:38:25,560
in a units of way when they don't have the

1740
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:26,199
same mind.

1741
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:30,079
Speaker 29: Yeah, because another thing I've noticed too is that they

1742
01:38:30,119 --> 01:38:33,920
also say that they're divine in some way, but divinity

1743
01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:36,840
doesn't equal uncreated because when I ask.

1744
01:38:36,680 --> 01:38:40,319
Speaker 1: Them, they believe that God evolves. There's an infinite regress

1745
01:38:40,319 --> 01:38:43,239
of evolving gods that are creatures, so it makes no sense.

1746
01:38:43,319 --> 01:38:45,520
So they literally just redefine the word God to mean

1747
01:38:45,680 --> 01:38:49,000
an evolving man. So it's like they don't actually believe

1748
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:54,600
in anything uncreated except for matter. So basically what so

1749
01:38:54,720 --> 01:38:59,159
God isn't actually uncreated? Matters uncreated, but God is a

1750
01:38:59,279 --> 01:39:01,800
man that evolves to become God. It's just total nonsense.

1751
01:39:02,560 --> 01:39:05,520
I mean, anybody who tries to get into Mormonism and

1752
01:39:06,159 --> 01:39:09,800
doesn't see how stupid it is. Within like a little while,

1753
01:39:11,159 --> 01:39:13,720
I don't know what to say any other Roman Catholics.

1754
01:39:13,720 --> 01:39:15,720
I'm going to be at my hotel pretty soon, so

1755
01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:18,680
I want to give another chance for any remaining Roman

1756
01:39:18,680 --> 01:39:23,640
Catholics to pop up. He requests to speak. We only

1757
01:39:23,640 --> 01:39:26,199
had one Roman Catholic who actually came to a dress

1758
01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:31,640
Vatican two, and which is pretty telling, and I gave

1759
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:35,000
him a chance to speak. He was not honest with

1760
01:39:35,039 --> 01:39:39,000
what he put on Twitter. It didn't go well for him.

1761
01:39:39,439 --> 01:39:42,239
He said he didn't know what Vatican two meant. He

1762
01:39:42,279 --> 01:39:45,479
doesn't know why No Strett says what it says, and

1763
01:39:45,560 --> 01:39:48,319
he would not go into the issue of the Muslims.

1764
01:39:48,640 --> 01:39:56,000
And what does that tell you? Max? What's up? I mean?

1765
01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:59,279
Speaker 7: See, I just wanted to act to Jay. Why don't

1766
01:39:59,319 --> 01:40:05,560
you debate Eric again? Hello? Eric Yaborrow.

1767
01:40:07,960 --> 01:40:11,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's basically said he won't have anything to do

1768
01:40:11,159 --> 01:40:11,399
with me.

1769
01:40:11,479 --> 01:40:13,640
Speaker 7: So oh yeah, so we gotta we gotta push him

1770
01:40:13,640 --> 01:40:14,680
to debate you. I guess right.

1771
01:40:15,640 --> 01:40:18,239
Speaker 1: I mean, he's well, he's not gonna debate. He just

1772
01:40:18,279 --> 01:40:20,359
wants to quote mine. He's not going to debate. Like

1773
01:40:22,239 --> 01:40:25,359
so when we had our so called debate, I said

1774
01:40:25,359 --> 01:40:28,399
I wanted to debate pre Vatican through post Vatican three contradictions,

1775
01:40:28,439 --> 01:40:31,039
and he said we can debate that some other time.

1776
01:40:31,800 --> 01:40:34,479
So if he wants to debate that, yeah, I'm not

1777
01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:36,920
for it. But he says not too mean to interact with.

1778
01:40:37,079 --> 01:40:39,159
Speaker 7: So understand if I want to, like look into a

1779
01:40:39,199 --> 01:40:42,680
book of understanding orthodoxy more I'm a Roman Catholic, one

1780
01:40:42,680 --> 01:40:46,079
book you would recommend in layman terms, not liking a

1781
01:40:46,199 --> 01:40:46,680
very theater.

1782
01:40:46,760 --> 01:40:46,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1783
01:40:46,960 --> 01:40:47,039
Speaker 8: No.

1784
01:40:47,119 --> 01:40:51,560
Speaker 1: The easiest readable book is Two Paths by Michael Welton.

1785
01:40:51,680 --> 01:40:52,399
Two Paths.

1786
01:40:52,520 --> 01:40:54,079
Speaker 7: All right, thank you, Jaed, I appreciate you.

1787
01:40:54,840 --> 01:41:12,720
Speaker 1: Yeah man uh noah, non none yet? Biz? What's up nine?

1788
01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:13,279
Youa biz?

1789
01:41:13,479 --> 01:41:13,600
Speaker 5: No?

1790
01:41:14,079 --> 01:41:18,159
Speaker 1: Anybody else? Any Roman Catholics who disagree? Anybody want to

1791
01:41:18,199 --> 01:41:20,359
bring hup an issue of contention. You want to make

1792
01:41:20,359 --> 01:41:22,600
an argument, I'll give you sixty seconds. I won't talk.

1793
01:41:22,920 --> 01:41:25,000
That's a good idea that Jim Jotras had was to

1794
01:41:25,039 --> 01:41:29,479
introduce the sixty seconds rule that if people want to

1795
01:41:29,479 --> 01:41:32,960
come on and make an argument, I will agree to

1796
01:41:33,000 --> 01:41:35,600
not talk for sixty seconds. And then the Roman Catholics

1797
01:41:35,600 --> 01:41:38,479
can't say that I'm mean, I talk over them. Paul.

1798
01:41:46,840 --> 01:41:50,640
Speaker 12: Just make a little argument and run it by you,

1799
01:41:50,720 --> 01:41:54,159
kind of vet it with you. The woman who called

1800
01:41:54,199 --> 01:41:58,520
in earlier and was talking about the miracles performed by

1801
01:41:58,520 --> 01:42:00,920
these Catholic saints. You know, I have a lot of

1802
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:03,840
family members who are, you know, kind of charismatic, and

1803
01:42:04,760 --> 01:42:07,960
they make similar arguments like, oh yeah, but the miracles.

1804
01:42:08,359 --> 01:42:13,000
And I just wanted to say, if we're if we're

1805
01:42:13,039 --> 01:42:19,800
relying on supernatural proof for things, it's it's not a

1806
01:42:19,880 --> 01:42:23,600
very good argument, and I my very simple, small little

1807
01:42:23,680 --> 01:42:29,880
argument against it is that that would assume it like

1808
01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:34,039
if if we if we're if we're claiming to be

1809
01:42:34,079 --> 01:42:38,439
able to identify that which is supernatural, we would have

1810
01:42:38,479 --> 01:42:42,560
to claim that we completely understand what is natural, you know,

1811
01:42:42,600 --> 01:42:45,800
we would be able to have a knowledge that circumscribes

1812
01:42:45,840 --> 01:42:46,720
the natural world.

1813
01:42:46,760 --> 01:42:50,359
Speaker 1: And no one is going to make that claim seriously.

1814
01:42:51,000 --> 01:42:51,479
And so.

1815
01:42:54,399 --> 01:42:58,640
Speaker 12: Since we don't know what's what's possible in nature, how

1816
01:42:58,640 --> 01:43:03,600
can we say that something that is that we that

1817
01:43:03,640 --> 01:43:07,119
appears to us as a miracle is indeed some you

1818
01:43:07,119 --> 01:43:09,840
know proof that you know, Oh God is God is

1819
01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:11,600
with me and loves me and supports them.

1820
01:43:11,680 --> 01:43:14,479
Speaker 1: Well, this is actually some of the atheists and naturalists

1821
01:43:14,479 --> 01:43:18,159
will actually make this line of argument against evidentialists that

1822
01:43:18,279 --> 01:43:22,760
try to use miracle claims as truth. And I think

1823
01:43:22,800 --> 01:43:26,039
this is actually a good point. Like like I'm being

1824
01:43:26,119 --> 01:43:28,399
I'm not an atheist when I say this, but it's

1825
01:43:28,439 --> 01:43:32,800
like if if an atheist says, how do we know

1826
01:43:33,279 --> 01:43:37,119
that this so called event wasn't just some natural phenomenon

1827
01:43:37,159 --> 01:43:41,640
and we just don't know? I mean, is significant enough

1828
01:43:41,760 --> 01:43:46,560
doubt because it's very possible, it is not a significant

1829
01:43:46,600 --> 01:43:52,000
enough doubt to raise to raise doubt, I should say,

1830
01:43:53,399 --> 01:43:55,640
and thus it doesn't become a very good proof. I

1831
01:43:55,680 --> 01:43:58,079
just don't understand why people think these things are good truths.

1832
01:43:59,119 --> 01:44:02,079
When I mean you just talked about charismatics. I mean,

1833
01:44:02,319 --> 01:44:04,560
if you talk to the charismatics, he's going to tell you, oh,

1834
01:44:04,560 --> 01:44:08,479
I've seen miracles of my holiness Pentecostal Church. I've seen

1835
01:44:08,520 --> 01:44:12,279
God grow legs back. And it's like, I don't believe that, dude.

1836
01:44:12,319 --> 01:44:14,359
And it's like, well, I don't care what you believe.

1837
01:44:14,399 --> 01:44:16,760
I've seen it and that's proof. That's all proof I need.

1838
01:44:17,319 --> 01:44:19,399
And it's like, well, Ron mcalleys do the exact same thing.

1839
01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:21,239
It's like, how is that proof.

1840
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:25,760
Speaker 12: It's it's a very dangerous form of proof and a

1841
01:44:26,199 --> 01:44:30,119
not a very good thing to rely upon obviously, and

1842
01:44:30,279 --> 01:44:32,680
could really lead us, you know, lead us astray.

1843
01:44:32,920 --> 01:44:35,399
Speaker 1: They can't can lead it to a delusion. And that's

1844
01:44:35,399 --> 01:44:39,960
why Jesus says, a wicked and adulterous generation seeks signs

1845
01:44:40,279 --> 01:44:44,399
exactly because they say stuff to Jesus like, if you

1846
01:44:44,479 --> 01:44:48,039
are the Messiah, do this miracle, give us some proof,

1847
01:44:48,079 --> 01:44:51,279
do something, do some neat trick, And he says a

1848
01:44:51,279 --> 01:45:12,960
wicked adulter's generation seeks these things last one. Moroki, I'm you, hey,

1849
01:45:13,039 --> 01:45:15,760
j Yeah.

1850
01:45:16,119 --> 01:45:20,520
Speaker 7: Quick question about icons. Are icons of God the Father allowed?

1851
01:45:23,159 --> 01:45:26,039
Speaker 1: Uh no, typically no, it's the only exception as the

1852
01:45:26,039 --> 01:45:32,760
Ancient of days. But that's a that's Christ as the Father. Okay, thanks,

1853
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:35,840
that was it. All right, thank you, everybody, have a

1854
01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:36,159
good night.