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Speaker 2: Wine?
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Speaker 1: Spark She.
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Speaker 2: How are you sure?
Speaker 1: Are you.
Speaker 2: Nor Kington? Miss lawns fine like Macy stustom? Are lett
Speaker 2: it be? Come humble then you clips? Are you?
Speaker 3: Don't?
Speaker 2: Don't?
Speaker 1: Are you.
Speaker 2: Fine? Like macy Stuto? Let it be color on the clips?
Speaker 2: Are you shto wherehead? Are you slight? Are you wait
Speaker 2: and shitt? So sweet?
Speaker 1: Are you?
Speaker 2: Are you wor word? Will it become the.
Speaker 1: Attention pastures? Like eighty eight to the Optic Nerve is
Speaker 1: now boarding Gate seventeen scheduled to depart at time thirty AF.
Speaker 4: Welcome everyone to tonight.
Speaker 5: On the Occult Rejects, we're biting into a very specific
Speaker 5: kind of forbidden fruit, the kind that doesn't promise purity
Speaker 5: or certainty at all, or even maybe uncertainty. It promises
Speaker 5: paradigm whiplash. Our guest on the Occult Rejects is Thumper Forge,
Speaker 5: also known as Horkos Gardinerian high priest, a voice in
Speaker 5: modern pagan media and someone who moves comfortably between traditional
Speaker 5: witchcraft structures and the grinning, reality bending current of chaos,
Speaker 5: magic and discordian Is. His book, The Chaos, Apple, Magic
Speaker 5: and Discordianism for the postmodern witch is a guide to
Speaker 5: weaponizing belief as a tool, bending it, swapping it, breaking it,
Speaker 5: and rebuilding it while dancing with airis and laughing at
Speaker 5: the parts of the universe that take themselves.
Speaker 4: A little bit too seriously.
Speaker 5: So, if you've ever wondered whether magic is about faith, focus, story, psychology,
Speaker 5: or a cosmic prank that still somehow works, this episode
Speaker 5: tonight is here for you.
Speaker 4: Boom beautiful.
Speaker 5: So on this fine occult Rejects time, we should probably
Speaker 5: introduce the panel of brilliant rejects.
Speaker 4: As you can tell in the far corner.
Speaker 5: We have the Cardinal electric Head himself, the King of Kings,
Speaker 5: the Great Nicholas. I'm using his voice and I'm throwing
Speaker 5: it over to him. Introduce yourself, Nick.
Speaker 3: What is what's going on? Thank you so much? That
Speaker 3: was amazing. Oh that was great. Yeah. If people wondering,
Speaker 3: uh yeah, my broadcasters.
Speaker 6: Are working and it's just a complete mess. So I'm
Speaker 6: using the laptop and ye whatever. So thank you very
Speaker 6: much for doing the introduction. I never could have done
Speaker 6: it as well as you or even sounded the audio quality.
Speaker 4: Wouldn't have sounded as well either, So yeah.
Speaker 3: I think I think I'm gonna have to start using
Speaker 3: you now one actually, So thank you, because I honestly
Speaker 3: I hate doing intros, I really do, so.
Speaker 6: You got the job. No thanks, but yeah, I really
Speaker 6: appreciate it. Brandon Thumper. I'm really excited to have you on.
Speaker 6: Like I was saying before, you know, I want to
Speaker 6: tell people too his book. Yeah, I read I don't know,
Speaker 6: probably maybe the first forty pages just keeping a real
Speaker 6: but it reads completely different than most, Like it really
Speaker 6: was something that I was like, oh, I feel like
Speaker 6: I'm being told a storytelling, you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 6: or it's like, oh, it's like like one of my boys,
Speaker 6: like having a funny conversation with me, you know, like
Speaker 6: we're hanging out, you know.
Speaker 3: So it's a really good read, and I'm.
Speaker 6: Promoting it because it's just written a little bit differently
Speaker 6: and I liked it, so, uh, yeah, I'm really excited
Speaker 6: to have you on and and there is a lot
Speaker 6: of information actually in there. That is one thing I'll say.
Speaker 6: You're not going to get some chaos magic book that
Speaker 6: is like you know, yeah, it was all right, not
Speaker 6: too bad. There's a ton of information in the ship
Speaker 6: to so definitely check it out. And Thumper, thank you
Speaker 6: so much for coming on. Man again, I was really excited.
Speaker 7: To have you on.
Speaker 6: And uh yeah, uh, I guess I'll pass it on
Speaker 6: to uh Judith, let's go, No Jen, Jen, my bad,
Speaker 6: my bed.
Speaker 3: We'll get Jim forget about it, Okay.
Speaker 8: No problem.
Speaker 9: I'm I'm cool if Judith finding a day, but I'll
Speaker 9: take it.
Speaker 3: No, then I'll forget you at the top and then
Speaker 3: I'll suck it all up.
Speaker 9: Well, what's up boss? Thank you so much, mister ninety three,
Speaker 9: and of course brother Brandon for that amazing uh intro
Speaker 9: for the whole show. I'm Jin the Ninja. I host
Speaker 9: a show called Threshold Saints and we'll try out my
Speaker 9: new tagline which is chaos, love and hypersition in the
Speaker 9: a of Flux. So if you interested in my show
Speaker 9: Threshold Saints, you can check it out on ig Spotify,
Speaker 9: and of course my substack, which is Threshold Saints subsack
Speaker 9: dot com, as well as at Threshold Saints on ig
Speaker 9: and x Twitter, or you can follow me on my
Speaker 9: personal account at Wukong Reborn which is wu Kong Reborn.
Speaker 9: And I have a lot of episodes coming out and
Speaker 9: a very very very special episode with David him Smith
Speaker 9: coming up and it's going to be pretty epic, so
Speaker 9: look out for that. And uh yeah, I'm really excited.
Speaker 9: I love Obviously my background is more chaos magic, so
Speaker 9: this is kind of the kind of show that I
Speaker 9: would love to do. And so I appreciate everybody on
Speaker 9: the panel, And thank you so much Thumper for and
Speaker 9: Nick for having you.
Speaker 3: Nice. No, thank you, thank you sir.
Speaker 6: Actually I think I got that guy coming on soon myself,
Speaker 6: Mike Baker wanted to actually try to come on with them,
Speaker 6: so we're going to schedule a date. So nice, nice,
Speaker 6: look forward to that coming out.
Speaker 3: Robbie, what is going on?
Speaker 10: Yes, doing great. Been working on illustrations and just a
Speaker 10: lot of pushing inc the last few weeks. I'm Robbie
Speaker 10: Marx or R Marx artist illustrator and if anybody wants
Speaker 10: to check out any of my other stuff, I have
Speaker 10: my metamind Cast podcast as well as all my miscellaneous
Speaker 10: art on my social media et cetera, et cetera. But
Speaker 10: you can check out my link tree which is link
Speaker 10: tree r M A r X and that'll pull up
Speaker 10: everything for you. And yeah, thanks for having me, and
Speaker 10: I'm excited about this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Robbie.
Speaker 3: Unlast, but not least the Loon or Self Judith, what
Speaker 3: is up?
Speaker 1: Hi?
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 11: I am so excited for this discussion. Unfortunately I haven't
Speaker 11: read the book yet, but I am motivated to read
Speaker 11: the book. You could catch me on YouTube and on
Speaker 11: x as the Loon. I do more of self inner development,
Speaker 11: and I have an episodisode coming with one on one
Speaker 11: with doctor Rachel you remember her nick, and we're just
Speaker 11: going to have two occult females having a chat. And
Speaker 11: I have a couple of more things coming up. So
Speaker 11: check me out on Twitter and on it.
Speaker 9: Nice get it?
Speaker 2: You get it?
Speaker 6: That is what's nice? Listen all right? So Thumper, Well, unfortunately,
Speaker 6: it's like the same question I asked everybody who comes
Speaker 6: on the show that's in to the occult, what.
Speaker 3: Got you into this?
Speaker 6: Like how did you find yourself one day saying, Oh,
Speaker 6: this is what I'm going to get into, and I'm
Speaker 6: going to make this all you a life journey.
Speaker 8: You know, when I was about twelve years old, I
Speaker 8: was flipping through a newspaper in like my parents' sitting room,
Speaker 8: and I found there was an article about a coven
Speaker 8: of witches going to see the Witches of Eastwick in
Speaker 8: the theater, and it was sort of a fluffy kind
Speaker 8: of human interest piece, and I think in retrospect it
Speaker 8: may have been Lord Cabot in her coven, but I
Speaker 8: didn't realize that there were actual witches in the world.
Speaker 8: And so twelve year old me looked up and looked
Speaker 8: at my parents and said, I'm going to be a witch.
Speaker 8: And my good Episcopalian parents were like, you know, maybe
Speaker 8: we table this, we don't focus on for now. But
Speaker 8: that got the idea stuck in my head. And I
Speaker 8: had always been interested in mythology and different religion and
Speaker 8: just so in my late teens and early twenties, I
Speaker 8: just started reading a bunch of books on witchcraft and paganism.
Speaker 8: And in my late twenties, I was very skeptical about
Speaker 8: a lot of the things I was reading, especially when
Speaker 8: it came to Wicca, so I went and found a
Speaker 8: Gardenerian Tuvin because I was like, where did this come from?
Speaker 8: Like you guys have to like I wanted to know,
Speaker 8: like the reality behind it, and I ended up sticking
Speaker 8: with that and then eventually stumbled into Discordianism kind of
Speaker 8: by accident. It was very similar in that Airis had
Speaker 8: always been my favorite goddess when I would read about mythology,
Speaker 8: and then to learn that there was a whole religion
Speaker 8: devoted to her really really just struck a chord with me.
Speaker 8: And not long after that, I pratt fell into chaos magic,
Speaker 8: and uh so I've been kind of doing all of
Speaker 8: the above ever since.
Speaker 6: Nice, what what is it now as we get into
Speaker 6: this book?
Speaker 3: What was it with this book.
Speaker 6: For I guess chaos magic and Discordanism that you thought
Speaker 6: was different or that they needed this book?
Speaker 7: Like?
Speaker 6: What's different about this book than what's out there already?
Speaker 6: What did you think you were handing to the people.
Speaker 6: That's a little different if it was.
Speaker 8: What I really wanted to focus on was the idea
Speaker 8: of chaos witchcraft. Especially in online spaces. There's been sort
Speaker 8: of a growing identity of the chaos witch a lot
Speaker 8: of people identifying as chast witches and nobody really knowing
Speaker 8: what that meant, you know, people kind of having a
Speaker 8: very broad general idea of chaos magic, people having a
Speaker 8: very broad general idea of witchcraft and combining the two
Speaker 8: as an identity, but not really knowing what that meant
Speaker 8: or having having any direction as to what they should
Speaker 8: do with that. So that's what I was really trying
Speaker 8: to write for. Is you want to be a cast,
Speaker 8: which great, here is here are resources for you, here's
Speaker 8: information about that specifically.
Speaker 2: Nice.
Speaker 3: Nice, heyboy, I have any questions before I keep going?
Speaker 3: Yeah right, uh, I know you.
Speaker 6: I mean I think you mentioned also Uhian witchcraft and
Speaker 6: all that stuff too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, would you would you want to give like.
Speaker 6: A little bit maybe a little bit of an idea
Speaker 6: for people what that is, because I'll be telling us
Speaker 6: I've never really had any ring on the show for
Speaker 6: that either, So like some people might be interested just
Speaker 6: getting a little bit of an idea of like what
Speaker 6: actually does that entail.
Speaker 8: You know, Gardnerian Gardenerian witchcraft. The way the best way
Speaker 8: to think about it is it was what came like
Speaker 8: a generation before Wicka. The very condensed history is there
Speaker 8: was this British guy named Gerrel Gardner who had been
Speaker 8: living overseas for number of years, retired, moved back to
Speaker 8: England and got involved with a Rosicrucian order in the
Speaker 8: New Forest area of England. And in that group he
Speaker 8: met or in that organization he met kind of an
Speaker 8: inner circle of people who called themselves witches and really
Speaker 8: all they wanted to do was like practice witchcraft and
Speaker 8: punch nachi, not scenes, and he fell in with them,
Speaker 8: and that was in nineteen thirty nine. In nineteen fifty one,
Speaker 8: I think it was was when the anti witchcraft laws
Speaker 8: in England were repealed, And by nineteen fifty four he
Speaker 8: had published a book called Witchcraft Today, which basically said
Speaker 8: I am a witch and I am part of the coven,
Speaker 8: and here's here's a little bit about us. It's an
Speaker 8: initiatory practice, so you have to go through an initiation
Speaker 8: to be a part of it. It is oath bound,
Speaker 8: meaning to take osad initiation, not to reveal the things
Speaker 8: that you've been experiencing. But modern wick or the idea
Speaker 8: of Wicca kind of grew out of that. Some people
Speaker 8: who came along shortly after he passed away in nineteen
Speaker 8: sixty four had kind of found the word wicca and
Speaker 8: were identifying themselves as wicked versus just calling themselves witches,
Speaker 8: and that word stuck. But the Gardnerian tradition is just
Speaker 8: sort of the precursor to what we now know is wicked.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 4: Side note.
Speaker 5: Gerald Gardner was initiated into the OTO by Alistair Crowley.
Speaker 8: He did he was given a charter by Crowley in
Speaker 8: that at some point in the mid to late forties
Speaker 8: where thirteen forty seven, thank you, thank you. Yeah, he
Speaker 8: didn't ever really do anything with the charter, and there
Speaker 8: is floating around out there. There is like Alistair Crawley's
Speaker 8: handwritten charter that Cardner kind of got from him on
Speaker 8: Crowley's deathbed. So he did have proof that he was
Speaker 8: a member or that he had authority within the OTO,
Speaker 8: although he didn't he didn't ever really pursue that. And
Speaker 8: while he was in the early uh in his kind
Speaker 8: of the early days of his practice, he incorporated a
Speaker 8: lot of Crawley into his witchcraft. And then some of
Speaker 8: the witches who came along to practice with him took
Speaker 8: all the they called it Crowley Andity, and they pulled
Speaker 8: it all out and replaced it with their own original right,
Speaker 8: so the Crowley didn't get passed down along with everything else.
Speaker 6: I think, I think I had so many I had
Speaker 6: somebody on the show recently where I think we're talking
Speaker 6: about the Charge of the Goddess and how much that
Speaker 6: seemed to like it was even very heavily taken from
Speaker 6: Alison Crowley.
Speaker 9: I think in the Book of the Law.
Speaker 8: Yeah, a couple of sources it came from.
Speaker 7: There was the Book of the Little influenced it.
Speaker 8: There was also a passage in Charles Scott free Leland's
Speaker 8: Roady a Gospel of the Witches.
Speaker 7: Which was published in eighteen ninety nine.
Speaker 8: But a lot of this put that film and getting
Speaker 8: filtered through a woman named During Valiente, who Gardner initiated
Speaker 8: in nineteen fifty three, and she rewrote a lot of stuff,
Speaker 8: including the Charge of the Goddess.
Speaker 6: Nice if you can also, because uh, I haven't, I've
Speaker 6: only had like maybe two people on for Chaos Magic too.
Speaker 6: Can you give me, like, you know definitions I guess
Speaker 6: chaos magic versus discordium and witchcraft, Like where do they overlap?
Speaker 3: And that where do they? I mean they kind of
Speaker 3: overlap a little bit, maybe could you maybe give that,
Speaker 3: you know, give that definition of people.
Speaker 8: Sure chaos magic is, you know, I would love to
Speaker 8: say it's we get together and shoot chaos from our
Speaker 8: hands or that, or that we are like you know,
Speaker 8: out in the eighth or doing doing chaotic things. But
Speaker 8: it's really just an experimental approach to magical practice with
Speaker 8: an emphasis on getting results. Of the idea of chaos
Speaker 8: in modern context, people tend to see it as meaning
Speaker 8: chaotic or meaning frenetic or kind of undisciplined or all
Speaker 8: over the place. But within the framework of chaos magic,
Speaker 8: the chaos is more of the Greek idea of chaos,
Speaker 8: sort of like the primordial entity that existed before anything else.
Speaker 8: So chaos is potential, and within chaos magic, the idea
Speaker 8: is to take that potential or take potential and turn
Speaker 8: it into not only possibility but probability, if that makes sense.
Speaker 8: And the idea of chaos also kind of promotes the
Speaker 8: idea that we can kind of go in any direction
Speaker 8: we want to to accomplish our others. If you think
Speaker 8: of you've probably seen the chaos star, the kind of
Speaker 8: eight pointed star with the arrows. Yes, that was kind
Speaker 8: of conceived by an author named Peter J. Carroll, who
Speaker 8: attached a different color of magic to each arrow, which
Speaker 8: he sort of lifted from the Cabitalistic tree of life.
Speaker 8: If you move like moving through the separophemy in Hermetic Karbala,
Speaker 8: you started melcouth, you start at the earth, and then
Speaker 8: you kind of work your way up through the different
Speaker 8: spheres as part of the great work to you know,
Speaker 8: become part of the divine or merge with the divine.
Speaker 8: In chaos magic, we're in the center and we can
Speaker 8: go off in any direction we want to, based on
Speaker 8: what our interest is or what we're trying to accomplish.
Speaker 8: So that is, in a nutshell, what chaos magic is.
Speaker 8: Discordianism is a modern parody religion based on the worship
Speaker 8: of the Greek goddess Eiras, who is the goddess of discord,
Speaker 8: who is sort of a minor player in classical Greek mythology.
Speaker 8: But the founders of Discordism in the late fifties learned
Speaker 8: of you know, we're read something about Greek mythology and
Speaker 8: learned there was a goddess of discord, and they thought
Speaker 8: that was hilarious. So they decided to base a religion
Speaker 8: around her. It was absolutely supposed to be a joke.
Speaker 8: It was supposed to be a parody of organized religion
Speaker 8: and just sort of a way to stewer organized religion.
Speaker 8: But it caught on and people started taking it seriously.
Speaker 8: So there are a lot of people out there taking
Speaker 8: the not serious, very very seriously in practicing religion based
Speaker 8: on that. And then witchcraft is that's one of those
Speaker 8: things where you've asked, you know, ask ten people, get
Speaker 8: a lot of answers. But in my mind, witchcraft is
Speaker 8: just unauthorized magic. It is magical practice that is not
Speaker 8: approved of by whatever the authorities or dominant groups happened
Speaker 8: to be in a given culture. Chaos magic practitioners tend
Speaker 8: to refer to themselves as magicians because they're still kind
Speaker 8: of working within a societal structure, a chaos which, on
Speaker 8: the other hand, is working sort of outside of the
Speaker 8: dominant paradigm and kind of doing their own thing, not
Speaker 8: only for their own benefit, but to kind of do
Speaker 8: what they can to influence the world around. Hopefully any
Speaker 8: of that made sense, I can try again.
Speaker 10: It didn't well, And you said, you know, Airis, I mean,
Speaker 10: she is a rather minor character in regard to the
Speaker 10: whole story of discord and sowing that chaos and rolling
Speaker 10: that golden apple in for the goddesses to determine, you know,
Speaker 10: which one is the most beautiful. But at the same time,
Speaker 10: she's also the spark or the catalyst that started the
Speaker 10: Trojan War exactly.
Speaker 8: And the thing with Aris, and I mentioned this in
Speaker 8: the cast Apple, the thing with her mate, with that
Speaker 8: kind of foundational myths of the Wedding of Thetis, is
Speaker 8: that at any time someone could have made a different
Speaker 8: decision and prevented the Trujan war.
Speaker 7: Aris.
Speaker 8: You know, Aris gave them opportunities, and all that had
Speaker 8: to do was was make a different decision. In my mind,
Speaker 8: if you're at a wedding banquet and a golden apple
Speaker 8: marked for the fairest rolls into the room, you give
Speaker 8: it to the bride. It's her special day, right, But
Speaker 8: the goddesses didn't do that.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 8: The reason they were having a wedding was because Zeus
Speaker 8: had arranged a marriage because there was a prophecy that
Speaker 8: any son of Thetus would overthrow him, so he was
Speaker 8: trying to prevent that from happening. You know, the goddesses
Speaker 8: all tried to bribe the judge. Hermes, you know, could
Speaker 8: have picked a different judge. It just it was one
Speaker 8: bad decision after another, and so the fault of it
Speaker 8: can't really lie with Eiras. All she did was thrown
Speaker 8: into the room and everybody mad decisions that resulted in
Speaker 8: the well and.
Speaker 10: That's the chaos.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that is the.
Speaker 8: But yeah, she she's always she's painted as the villain
Speaker 8: of the story in retrospect. She was the milind one.
Speaker 10: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And an interesting story about the Principal Discordia or the
Speaker 5: Lord Omar Kayam.
Speaker 4: The guy who wrote it.
Speaker 5: Carrie, interesting enough, has his own chaos, which is he
Speaker 5: was brought in on charges of assassinating JFK. And so
Speaker 5: a lot of people thought that, you know, so he
Speaker 5: has this whole thing where he was maybe brainwashed into
Speaker 5: thinking or like a man Cherian style candidate that like,
Speaker 5: because you know, Oswald was kind of thrown to the wolves.
Speaker 5: But at the same time, Carry Thornley wrote a book
Speaker 5: before the Principal Discordia that talked about this defector who
Speaker 5: was upset with the United States, and that was actually
Speaker 5: Oswald himself.
Speaker 4: So they actually knew each other, Oswald and Carry they.
Speaker 8: Were believes they were roommates at one point that Discordia.
Speaker 8: There was Greg Hill, who renamed himself not Eclipse Younger,
Speaker 8: and Carry Thornley, who renamed himself Lord O Markaiam Ravenhurst.
Speaker 8: And Greg Hill was like an IBM programmer and was
Speaker 8: sort of this very chill, quiet guy. Carry Thornley was
Speaker 8: very countercultural, and yeah, wrote a whole book about you know,
Speaker 8: like you were saying, kind of talking about his old
Speaker 8: his old buddy Lee Harvey Oswald. He ended up under
Speaker 8: a lot of scrutiny because of that. I don't know
Speaker 8: that he thought that decision through very well.
Speaker 5: Well, it's interesting how he became the very chaos that
Speaker 5: Carry Thornton is, the very chaos that he was talking about.
Speaker 5: It's very meta and if you got this many layered
Speaker 5: nature of what's going on in the conspiratorial realms of
Speaker 5: the sixties with the jfk assassination and then all of
Speaker 5: a sudden, the same guy coincidentally creates the princip a Discordia,
Speaker 5: and this this very thing that was disrupting the sixties counterculture,
Speaker 5: which some think wasn't even counterculture, that actually was an
Speaker 5: inorganic creation of the CIA's MK.
Speaker 7: Ultra program right.
Speaker 8: And you know it's funny that you would mention that
Speaker 8: because in an interview one time, somebody asked carry Thornley
Speaker 8: if he thought RAS was real, because, you know, like
Speaker 8: I was saying earlier, the idea of this religion was
Speaker 8: supposed to be a joke. It was supposed to be parady,
Speaker 8: was supposed to be taken seriously. And so somebody asked Thornley,
Speaker 8: you know, is RIS real? And his response was, if
Speaker 8: I knew this was all going to come true, I
Speaker 8: would have picked Venus very much. They did not mean
Speaker 8: to create something, but by not intending to do so,
Speaker 8: they ended up, you know, creating this religion that that
Speaker 8: ended up being very real for a lot of people.
Speaker 9: I actually have a couple of questions about Discordianism, a thumber.
Speaker 9: Who would you say is I know you addressed some
Speaker 9: of them, but who would you say are important Discordians
Speaker 9: for people to be aware of? Because I know it's
Speaker 9: a kind of a controversial label, one that people have
Speaker 9: cast dispersions against me sometimes simply because of some of
Speaker 9: my work on Tracy Twyman and you know, association with
Speaker 9: some leftown path people. So I just want to hear like,
Speaker 9: who do you think is interesting Discordians that people should
Speaker 9: know about? And do you have any connections with a
Speaker 9: greater network?
Speaker 8: So the Discordians I think people should probably know about
Speaker 8: are as we were talking before we went on Robert
Speaker 8: Anton Wilson, who outside of the Principia Discordia, his works
Speaker 8: were very influential to Discordianism and he built on some
Speaker 8: ideas that became kind of core to Discordianism. The Discordians
Speaker 8: that people don't know are Discordians. And this is going
Speaker 8: to be a very gen X kind of thing. But
Speaker 8: have you ever heard of a band called the KLF
Speaker 8: or They were sometimes known as the Nine Wards. They
Speaker 8: had hits in the nineties, Three Am Eternal, They had
Speaker 8: one song where Tandy Wnette. They were kind of a
Speaker 8: dance band, but Tandy Winnette was the lead singer on
Speaker 8: one of their songs. If you've ever gone to a
Speaker 8: basketball game and you hear the doctor Who.
Speaker 7: Song, the Doctor Who?
Speaker 8: That was the KLF as the Time Awards. But they
Speaker 8: were a Discordian band and they worked a lot of
Speaker 8: Discordian concepts into their lyrics and they were huge in Britain.
Speaker 8: They were they had a few hits in the US,
Speaker 8: but they were huge overseas, and their fame kind of
Speaker 8: came to an end because one day they announced that
Speaker 8: they were going to burn a million pounds basically, you know,
Speaker 8: a million pounds being just British currency. They were going
Speaker 8: to burn a million dollars worth of it. And so
Speaker 8: they went out to like a boat house and they
Speaker 8: piled up stacks of British pound notes into a million
Speaker 8: and set it on fire, and there were news crews
Speaker 8: there and they burned a million pounds and everybody sort
Speaker 8: of stood there awkwardly, and then the news crewise just
Speaker 8: turned off their cameras and left, and it was very
Speaker 8: I think it was very meaningful for them, or they
Speaker 8: felt like they were doing something very meaningful, and afterwards
Speaker 8: they were like, crap, we just destroyed a bunch of money.
Speaker 8: It kind of realized that there wasn't really point to
Speaker 8: it after all. Those are the names that I think
Speaker 8: in terms of like Discordianism quietly influencing pop culture, those
Speaker 8: are the names I think people should know. There are
Speaker 8: other authors out there like Adam Golightly or go Rightly
Speaker 8: and Bretton Clutterbuck who have done a lot of research
Speaker 8: into the history of Discordianism and who are who are
Speaker 8: publishing books that have a lot of information that just
Speaker 8: people just don't normally.
Speaker 7: Have access to.
Speaker 8: So anyone who's interested in Discordianism should definitely look up
Speaker 8: those authors. And then there is a website called Principia
Speaker 8: Discordia dot com which has the Principia Online free to
Speaker 8: read with forums where a lot of just random discordian
Speaker 8: concepts get tossed around to the forums as well.
Speaker 9: Thank you so much, appreciate that. That was a great answer.
Speaker 7: Thank you.
Speaker 3: You want to ask this some of big five dollars
Speaker 3: for it.
Speaker 6: So do you know the relationship between Discoridianism and intuitionism mathematics?
Speaker 7: I do not, actually.
Speaker 5: Interesting, I don't. This isn't a correct answer, obviously, but
Speaker 5: there is a answer, and that answer would be maybe
Speaker 5: some So when principal Discordia or and Discordanism, they have
Speaker 5: the law of fives right. And then there's also the
Speaker 5: idea of twenty three Skidoo, which is also then put
Speaker 5: into the Book of Lies a whole chapter called twenty
Speaker 5: three Skidoo, which is basically, get out, get out, get
Speaker 5: out as fast as possible, you know what I mean,
Speaker 5: and so you can and so, and throughout the Illuminatus
Speaker 5: trilogy there was the two equals two plus three equals five.
Speaker 5: There's the two to the two equals three degrees as
Speaker 5: you walk up the Kabbalist try of life, which is
Speaker 5: a you know, the degree structure of the Hermetic order
Speaker 5: of the Golden Dawn. And so what they do is
Speaker 5: they play. And then in the in the Taoist Ian
Speaker 5: Yong's symbol, they actually principal Discordia took that as their symbol.
Speaker 5: But instead of the two circles one black, one white,
Speaker 5: it's one is the apple and one is the pentagon,
Speaker 5: which is five. Then so it's order and chaos or
Speaker 5: discord thank you, thank you, and yeah. And so it's
Speaker 5: like maybe that could be related mathematically to whatever they're
Speaker 5: talking about.
Speaker 8: It certainly could be, and I will say hopefully this
Speaker 8: ties in that a lot of like just as the
Speaker 8: Internet was about to become a seeing, a lot of
Speaker 8: computer programmers were both cast magicians and discordias. In England
Speaker 8: when cast magic was sort of building steam in the seventies,
Speaker 8: it was heavily influenced by ceremonial magic when it kind
Speaker 8: of got important to the States. It got heavily influenced
Speaker 8: by Discordianism. So all these kind of early computer programmers
Speaker 8: were heavily influenced by this scordion and cast magic as
Speaker 8: they were constructing the Internet.
Speaker 10: Also, you have William Burrow's twenty three theory that he
Speaker 10: has with the ship Captains and all the later got
Speaker 10: kind of picked up within Robert Anton Wilson and the
Speaker 10: Illuminatus kind of trilogy.
Speaker 8: Yeah, within Discordianism, as was mentioned, there is the law
Speaker 8: of fives that everything somehow equals five, and through that
Speaker 8: the number twenty three became sacred because people is three
Speaker 8: is five. But the yeah, the twenty three enigma is
Speaker 8: is a crazy, crazy thing to dive into. Yeah, in
Speaker 8: terms of the number of bizarre things that have happened
Speaker 8: on the twenty third of a month, or that there's
Speaker 8: actually a movie called I think it might just be
Speaker 8: called twenty three, but it's it's just absolutely fascinating when
Speaker 8: we when you go down that rabbit hole, you'll find
Speaker 8: some crazy, crazy stuff. Oh yeah, I think the re
Speaker 8: and why the number five was picked to be sacred
Speaker 8: in Discordionism was again just sort of arbitrary to be funny,
Speaker 8: and you know, just it's a number that can't really
Speaker 8: be evenly divided into or whatever, so they it was
Speaker 8: picked arbitrarily. But in Greek mythology, especially in the work
Speaker 8: of Hesiod, the fifth day of the month was always
Speaker 8: considered inauspicious because that was the day that Air escaped
Speaker 8: birth to her son Horcas, and so, without intending to,
Speaker 8: greg Hill and Cary Thornley inadvertently referenced classical Greek mythology
Speaker 8: when they picked that number as sacred heras well.
Speaker 10: And also with the five, the number, you know, you
Speaker 10: have that pint alpha, you have the drooven foot, which
Speaker 10: is the druide used to wear the star on their sandals.
Speaker 10: You have this this idea of the five to the ten,
Speaker 10: turning the man on his head and tapping horn. So
Speaker 10: there's a lot of symbolical elements within the five itself
Speaker 10: that relate to us as human beings.
Speaker 8: Especially in the first edition of the Principi of Discordia,
Speaker 8: there was a little kind of infographic of an upright
Speaker 8: pentagram that was labeled good, and then there was an
Speaker 8: inverted pentagram next to it that was labeled bad, and
Speaker 8: the pentagram turned in a ninety degree eagle that was
Speaker 8: labeled aristesque. So is the idea being that within Discordianism
Speaker 8: there isn't really good or bad existence.
Speaker 7: We're going in a different direction totally.
Speaker 10: And that's kind of with any god or goddess that
Speaker 10: you look at in the ancient world. There's always that,
Speaker 10: you know, the life giver and.
Speaker 7: The storm bringer as far as.
Speaker 10: The dichotomy of the.
Speaker 7: Two exactly exactly.
Speaker 8: And that was one thing about Discordianism that I think
Speaker 8: really appealed to me early on was that, you know,
Speaker 8: within colastal mythology and within all world mythology, you know,
Speaker 8: we do see the good and the bad of the gods.
Speaker 8: We see we see the creative forces, we see the
Speaker 8: destructive forces. And Harris was always just sort of this
Speaker 8: kind of quasi villainous character. So within Accordianism, she has
Speaker 8: given that creative side and she yeah, where she has
Speaker 8: lifted up and seen as as more fun loving and happy,
Speaker 8: go lucky versus just this kind of dour little character
Speaker 8: from great mythology.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 10: And well, it's interesting because I came across the principal
Speaker 10: Discordia before the Internet really even happened, and I didn't
Speaker 10: know it had anything to do with Robert Anton Wilson
Speaker 10: until later and kind of just tie in all that
Speaker 10: together and it's yeah, it's just been an interesting journey
Speaker 10: going down the whole chaos road.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 8: Robert Anton Wilson really developed the idea of the word schnord,
Speaker 8: which in the parcipit of Discordia as just sort of
Speaker 8: a random, throwaway, nonsense word, but then he built a
Speaker 8: whole concept around it, where a is some thing put
Speaker 8: in tech in print media specifically that makes you uncomfor
Speaker 8: You can't people, everyone in the world is conditioned not
Speaker 8: to be able to see the flwords. But they were
Speaker 8: you put into like serious news articles and left out
Speaker 8: of advertisements. So if you're reading a newspaper, you wouldn't
Speaker 8: want you'd get uncomfortable if you tried to read what
Speaker 8: was actually happening in the world, and instead you would
Speaker 8: be drawn to the pretty pictures in the advertisements.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 8: And so as characters go through their initiations and the
Speaker 8: Illuminatus trilogy, there's the whole concept of I can see
Speaker 8: the flords where one day they open up the bar
Speaker 8: and they see the word snord everywhere, and they are deconditioning.
Speaker 8: They are getting over those blocks that have been put
Speaker 8: to keep them under control, right.
Speaker 10: And well, and I don't know, you get into Robert
Speaker 10: Anton Wilson in regard to him talking about his relationship,
Speaker 10: his internal relationship with the ideas of the age of
Speaker 10: mystic Sufi's and kind of when you go down that
Speaker 10: Sufi road, you have this idea that nothing is either
Speaker 10: you know, right or wrong, that everything that it gets
Speaker 10: into kind of the cop the ideas of like cosmic
Speaker 10: justice and kind of some of these things that are
Speaker 10: outside of the scope of what the human understanding of.
Speaker 10: You know, the dichotomy, dualism of right and wrong is.
Speaker 8: Exactly exactly that's so many, at least according to Discordanism.
Speaker 8: So many of those binary things are artificial constructions right there.
Speaker 7: They are. They are man made.
Speaker 8: Arbitrary concepts, and like order and disorder are man made
Speaker 8: concepts that are a fractional reflection of creation and destruction.
Speaker 8: But nothing really exists on a binary. Everything is a bimodality,
Speaker 8: right Like you know, like if we think of of gender,
Speaker 8: a lot of people will say gender as man and woman,
Speaker 8: but they're you know, there are things that are definitely masculine.
Speaker 8: There are things that are sort of masculine, things that
Speaker 8: are kind of feminine but not really, there are things
Speaker 8: that are.
Speaker 7: That cannot be different.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's all kind of a spectrum with with high
Speaker 8: points on it, and everything in the world really is
Speaker 8: a lot more like that than just a binary or
Speaker 8: a binary right and wrong.
Speaker 10: Right, everything kind of lays in a gray area.
Speaker 8: Yeah, Yeah, which is is I think tough for people
Speaker 8: to get the brain around at times. Right, a lot
Speaker 8: more comfortable to think in terms of right and wrong.
Speaker 8: But that especially with like online pulkler and social media,
Speaker 8: we get so caught up in the idea of right
Speaker 8: and wrong that if somebody says some like, if somebody
Speaker 8: puts out an idea that is different than the way
Speaker 8: I would want to do it, instead of going, oh,
Speaker 8: well that's how they do it, I'm going to do
Speaker 8: things my way, the gut response is, well, you're telling
Speaker 8: me I'm wrong because you're doing differently than me. And
Speaker 8: if you're right, that means I have to be wrong,
Speaker 8: and it's like we can we can all kind of
Speaker 8: be right.
Speaker 10: There's a thousand ways to do everything exactly.
Speaker 1: Done one.
Speaker 5: Yeah, fascinating enough, Also, is that the Discordians are using
Speaker 5: the yin and the young symbol, which are two things
Speaker 5: that then, you know, in the Daoist culture you have
Speaker 5: or in Daoism you have Wu, which is the all nothingness,
Speaker 5: the primordial ooz or chaos that separates into in and
Speaker 5: yong and from one from nothing to you know, to
Speaker 5: to the many. And so it's fascinating this how that
Speaker 5: kind of works to explode into the myriad of many
Speaker 5: things as then we move ourselves back up towards the
Speaker 5: all primordial chaos organizational skill. Uh, it's just a fascinating
Speaker 5: thing to think about as well when you move into
Speaker 5: the un and the young, which isn't right or wrong obviously,
Speaker 5: but it has this more young you know, it's two
Speaker 5: full yin you know, to nothingness. And so these are
Speaker 5: the things when they spin, right, that's the dynamism of
Speaker 5: the tyching practice as they are working with the spiral
Speaker 5: as that when you're doing it, you're creating the all everything,
Speaker 5: the nuance within the world, so to speak.
Speaker 8: Absolutely, the primordial chaos of Daoism is actually personified within
Speaker 8: the percincity of discordia because in Daoism that primordial force
Speaker 8: is called hung men or Hung Moan, and that name
Speaker 8: translates to h It's like basically means either primordial miss
Speaker 8: vast obscurity, or big goose dummy. And in Taoist philosophy,
Speaker 8: Hung Meng is sort of this character who is very
Speaker 8: much a trickster, and he's this primordial chaos, but he
Speaker 8: just sort of pops up every once in a while
Speaker 8: to shake things up. And in the Principia he is
Speaker 8: listed as one of the apostles of Rais and he
Speaker 8: sort of represents Daoism in Eastern thought and personifies the
Speaker 8: contributions that those philosophies bring into Discordianism.
Speaker 6: I have somebody asking here double entendres a form of
Speaker 6: chaos magic.
Speaker 7: They certainly could be.
Speaker 10: That one of the double and triples.
Speaker 9: Yeah, all magicians are word cells, and all magic is words.
Speaker 9: That is the truth. That is from all the times
Speaker 9: that like we have spent it doing the show, Like
Speaker 9: all the people I've interviewed on my show, every single
Speaker 9: magician left hand path, right hand path, institutional, non institutional
Speaker 9: in general, they do have a writing practice in a way,
Speaker 9: and so you must you must admit, like look at
Speaker 9: Austin Osman spare like maybe the you know, primordial we'll
Speaker 9: call him primordial Discordian. It's it's poems, it's illustrations, it's
Speaker 9: mimetic before mimetics was a thing. And so you must
Speaker 9: admit that the technology for a lot of chaos is
Speaker 9: the words, right, I mean, but I just want to
Speaker 9: say that it's It's absolutely true. The magician is the
Speaker 9: words well of.
Speaker 8: I think to find out if something is an expression
Speaker 8: of cast magic, the best way to find out is
Speaker 8: to try it out. And chast magic is very much
Speaker 8: learned by doing so. If there is if somebody has
Speaker 8: an idea of using double entendres and magical practice, do it,
Speaker 8: see what happens. Like chast magic is all about the
Speaker 8: f around and find out which you know, it's so
Speaker 8: many occult disciplines there. You know, there's the idea of
Speaker 8: of you know, guidelines and warnings and and you know, uh,
Speaker 8: don't do X because X, you know Y and Z
Speaker 8: will happen and you will the pendulum will swing back
Speaker 8: upon you. And in cast magic, it's like, well, I'm
Speaker 8: going to do it and see what happens. And if
Speaker 8: it doesn't work the way I want it to, well
Speaker 8: try something else. You know, belief very much is a tool.
Speaker 8: And if if I'm going into a magical experiment, I'm
Speaker 8: not going to go into it believing that if I
Speaker 8: do this wrong, something bad is going to happen to me.
Speaker 8: That's that doesn't do me any good. That's a belief
Speaker 8: I can set aside for a different paradigm and focus
Speaker 8: on I want.
Speaker 7: To get results.
Speaker 8: I'm going into this as objectively as possible to see
Speaker 8: what happens and what can I do to make it
Speaker 8: work better next time?
Speaker 6: If you can too, I mean, I know we uh
Speaker 6: touched on it, be full of on the practical I mean,
Speaker 6: I guess, I guess I would say, all it's kind
Speaker 6: of like hands on with chaos magic, he practical side.
Speaker 3: What would be some practical technique? What would be techniques
Speaker 3: behind chaos magic?
Speaker 8: Or I think there really are And I'd say this
Speaker 8: after just going off on nothing as a binary, there
Speaker 8: are two really good places to start within chaos magic
Speaker 8: and those are those are notice in paradigm.
Speaker 6: Shifting night I was going to ask you about.
Speaker 8: The paradigm is just basically what can be described as
Speaker 8: getting into a tan state. It's the mental state necessary
Speaker 8: to work magic. There are a lot of different ways
Speaker 8: to do it. There there's excitatory methods where you you know,
Speaker 8: dance around a whole bunch until you're kind of tranced
Speaker 8: out and then you can make magic. There are inhibitory
Speaker 8: you know, meditation, quiet meditation, trying to you know, center
Speaker 8: yourself and be calm and still and get into that
Speaker 8: state road Hypnosis is a form of nosising is a
Speaker 8: form of nosis. When you know, like if you've ever
Speaker 8: back in school, if you were ever writing a paper
Speaker 8: and daydreaming and then you look down and you're just
Speaker 8: like doodling on the page, that's a gnostic state. So
Speaker 8: that's just something to keep in mind as we're trying
Speaker 8: to practice within a charismatic Chasmatic paradigm is getting into
Speaker 8: that kind of flow state. Paradigm shifting is basically the
Speaker 8: ability to change belief.
Speaker 7: It will the There's a there's.
Speaker 8: A couple of sayings within chasm magic of belief as
Speaker 8: a tool, a phrase that pops up a lot, which
Speaker 8: specifically because of the illumin Host trilogy, nothing is true,
Speaker 8: everything is permitted, or as it says in the Principiate Discordia,
Speaker 8: everything is true. Even false things are true. So we
Speaker 8: get to kind of decide what we believe, and we
Speaker 8: can believe whatever we need to do to accomplish the
Speaker 8: work at hand. It I think that sort of trips
Speaker 8: people up sometimes because they think in terms of like, well, okay,
Speaker 8: but I'm gonna so I'm gonna worship Greek gods, but
Speaker 8: then I'm gonna worship Norse gods. But can I worship
Speaker 8: a Greek and Norse god together? That's not really paradigm shifting.
Speaker 8: That's just sort of an eclectic approached paganism, you know,
Speaker 8: a paradigm shift would be okay. I normally tend to
Speaker 8: think in sort of pantheistic terms, but for the purposes
Speaker 8: of this working, I'm going to not believe in any gods.
Speaker 8: I'm going to approach this as an atheist or i
Speaker 8: approach this as a henotheist, and I'm going to say
Speaker 8: that Eris is my primary goddess and she is the
Speaker 8: one who is partant to me, and I'm not going
Speaker 8: to worry about other gods, whether they exist or not.
Speaker 8: It's it's those isms set of the paradigm, like how
Speaker 8: we how we see spirituality as a whole. It doesn't
Speaker 8: exist yet, Things that haven't been believed, you know, whether
Speaker 8: it's our values or our perception of the divine, those
Speaker 8: things kind of shift on their own organically. Paradigm shifting
Speaker 8: is doing it intentionally, right. The best example that I
Speaker 8: that I have on hand for for paradigm shifting is there.
Speaker 8: And this is really because I often get asked, what's
Speaker 8: the difference between eclectic witchcraft and chaos witchcraft? And in
Speaker 8: eclectic witchcraft, we are assembling a practice around our beliefs,
Speaker 8: like we have an idea of what witchcraft is and
Speaker 8: maybe what God's we want to venerate, and we're going
Speaker 8: to figure out how to do that. Within chaos witchcraft,
Speaker 8: we are assembling beliefs around our practice. And the best
Speaker 8: example I can say I've been able to take up
Speaker 8: so far is there is an old Irish folk charm
Speaker 8: that comes from a book called Mystic Charm Irish Charms,
Speaker 8: Mystic Cures and Superstitions by Lady Jane Wilde.
Speaker 7: Oscar Wilde's mom.
Speaker 8: She was a folkworist, so she had collected the spell
Speaker 8: on how to become invisible, and it was you get
Speaker 8: the heart of a raven and you cut it open
Speaker 8: and you put three black beans in it, and then
Speaker 8: you bury the heart, and then the bean the bean
Speaker 8: tree grows, and then you take one of the beans
Speaker 8: and place it under your mouth and you like recite
Speaker 8: an invocation to Satan and then you can become visible.
Speaker 8: And so let's if I'm going to go through it right, like,
Speaker 8: let's say I've decided to try the spell and I
Speaker 8: just happened to have a raven heart lying around, because
Speaker 8: of course I do. And you have to have a
Speaker 8: black handled knife as well. The color black is very important.
Speaker 8: It all ties in because as well, so blackbird, black knives,
Speaker 8: black being. I happen to have a raven heart, I've
Speaker 8: got some black beings. I'm down to do this. And
Speaker 8: then I get to the invocation to Satan. If I'm
Speaker 8: coming at it from an eclective point of view, I'm
Speaker 8: going to go, well, Satan really is a part of
Speaker 8: my pagan beliefs. So I'm going to start thinking about
Speaker 8: what gods or goddesses might relate to invisibility and what
Speaker 8: God and goddesses might relate to vegetation, because this is
Speaker 8: something growing and is there a connection there? Well, HETEs
Speaker 8: is sort of about invisibility, and he had that magic
Speaker 8: helmet that made him invisible and his wife is Persephony
Speaker 8: and choose the goddess of vegetation. So I can rewrite
Speaker 8: the invocation to Hades and Persephony and it'll probably work
Speaker 8: because like I'm doing everything else correctly, so this it
Speaker 8: would just be easier to worship Satan for five seconds.
Speaker 8: Like I'm gonna do my little location to Satan. I'm
Speaker 8: gonna pop the Bible in my mouth. If I turn invisible, noted.
Speaker 8: If I don't turn invisible, then maybe I'll try it.
Speaker 8: With's taking gods and seeing I love it, and that's
Speaker 8: that's for me. That's the big difference. That's assembling the
Speaker 8: belief around the practice.
Speaker 6: Yeah, all right, did any of you guys have any
Speaker 6: more Did any of you guys have any more questions
Speaker 6: on maybe on the paradigm shift.
Speaker 7: I want to jump over.
Speaker 3: Decisions, so in case anybody have something on that or
Speaker 3: any other questions.
Speaker 5: Do you think that you need an actual paradigm to
Speaker 5: be able to.
Speaker 7: Make it a shift?
Speaker 8: H That's a good question, and I uh, I think
Speaker 8: the term paradigm is fairly broad. I think just actually
Speaker 8: I'm gonna go back to the principia because within the
Speaker 8: Principitouscordia culture is defined as a group of people who
Speaker 8: are looking through the world, looking at the world through
Speaker 8: a particular grid. Each culture has their own grid. And
Speaker 8: if we don't necessarily have a belief system to shift
Speaker 8: into or out of, we can still shift our perception.
Speaker 8: We can still look at things the way someone else
Speaker 8: might look at it, and that would still count as
Speaker 8: a shift.
Speaker 10: Well. And Robert d'antowen Wilson, he specifically talks about this
Speaker 10: in regard to the mind tunnels.
Speaker 8: Yeah, reality tunnels, reality tunnels.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so and so we're trying to always
Speaker 5: talk about the concrete reality, the objective truth, but in
Speaker 5: doing so, our language is adding different levels of abstractions.
Speaker 5: And he has it as a pyramidal structure going all
Speaker 5: the way up to the general abstraction of whatever truth
Speaker 5: or freedom or these things are.
Speaker 4: But it's reports of reports, and through.
Speaker 5: Our changing of paradigm, we change our understanding of the
Speaker 5: actual concrete truth in and of itself, which is there.
Speaker 5: Because without that we can't have or talk about anything
Speaker 5: that's right.
Speaker 10: That's very platonic in nat very.
Speaker 8: Patonic, and I'm a platonist, So there's that I randomly
Speaker 8: have an anecdote that ties into what you're saying about
Speaker 8: the about perception we've been talking about Robert ATW.
Speaker 7: Wilson and the Illuminatus Trilogy.
Speaker 8: It was turned into a nine hour stage play directed
Speaker 8: by and productions of it happened and it was directed
Speaker 8: by a guy named Ken Campbell, and one night during
Speaker 8: a performance backstage, he and his wife conceived the daughter,
Speaker 8: and uh, her name, her name was Daisy, Daisy Aris
Speaker 8: Campbell was her full name. They named her after Aarics
Speaker 8: And she grew up to be sort of a free
Speaker 8: spirit and a performer and a libertine. And one day
Speaker 8: some her family got together and said, hey, Daisy, uh,
Speaker 8: we're gonna we need to go file a police report,
Speaker 8: and uh, you're the only You're the only reliable.
Speaker 7: Witness we have. Will you come with us?
Speaker 8: And she said okay, sure, and they get in the
Speaker 8: car and it turns out they were like, surprise, we're
Speaker 8: not going to go give a statement. We're having you institutionalized.
Speaker 8: We just needed to get you in more. And she
Speaker 8: threw a fit and she was like, I am not
Speaker 8: I am not insane. I do not need to be institutionalized.
Speaker 8: All I need right now is a copy of Soap
Speaker 8: Opera Digest. And she threw this huge fit about Soap
Speaker 8: Opera Digest, so big that they pulled over, and she
Speaker 8: stormed into a convenience store and bought a copy of
Speaker 8: Soap Opera Digests and she tore it open and the
Speaker 8: article she turned to the headline was Daisy Goes Crazy
Speaker 8: and so the most magazine. And she got back in
Speaker 8: the car and she said, I'd like to institutional.
Speaker 10: Lifestyle please synchronicities.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and that is my favorite discordant story at all time.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, all right, so, uh sigils?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: Is that like a big Is that a big part
Speaker 3: of your chaos magic?
Speaker 8: The way it is, the way I do them is
Speaker 8: differently than a lot of people do them. I think
Speaker 8: sigils the modern concept of sigils is really comes from
Speaker 8: often husband Spaar's work filtered through an early cast magician
Speaker 8: named Gray Sherwin, and has now within modern occult spaces
Speaker 8: been very crystallized. Like you write out your intent and
Speaker 8: you cross out the letters and you put the letters
Speaker 8: into a pattern and you create a sigil. And a
Speaker 8: lot of people think that is how you make sigels.
Speaker 8: That is one way of making sigils. The way I
Speaker 8: make them, and I talk about this in the book,
Speaker 8: is almost sort of automatic writing, where I sort of
Speaker 8: get a story going in my head of what I
Speaker 8: want to see happen, of the reality that I that
Speaker 8: I want to perceive, that I want to experience, and
Speaker 8: then I just sort of without looking at the paper,
Speaker 8: just let my hand kind of holding the pen do
Speaker 8: whatever it wants, and when the story comes to a
Speaker 8: close in my head, then I have my sgul that
Speaker 8: I can do whatever I want with. I do think
Speaker 8: sigils are very efficient.
Speaker 1: They are.
Speaker 7: They are a good way of.
Speaker 8: Kind of getting into that gnostic state, especially in the
Speaker 8: inhibitory way of you know, whether it's you know, just
Speaker 8: drawing a doodle or whether it's breaking down letters and
Speaker 8: rearranging them to create a shape. All those help us
Speaker 8: get into that gnostic state and then we Yeah, I
Speaker 8: think I think they are very convenient. I think they're
Speaker 8: very efficient. But I will I will die on the hill.
Speaker 8: There is an infinite variety of ways to make ways
Speaker 8: to make them.
Speaker 5: Don't you think that there are better ways than other ways?
Speaker 1: Though or not?
Speaker 7: I think there are.
Speaker 8: I think the right way to make sigils is always
Speaker 8: going to be individual because the way I make sigils
Speaker 8: may not, you know, may not work for somebody else.
Speaker 8: A friend of mine made amazing sigils using the kind
Speaker 8: of standard write the letters out that worked so well
Speaker 8: for her that never worked quite as well for me.
Speaker 8: The doodling method gets meet great results. I really I
Speaker 8: think that the when it comes to just witchcraft or
Speaker 8: magic in general, I don't think there's ever a right
Speaker 8: or wrong. I do think there's inefficient. And if we
Speaker 8: with sigils, if we get it in our heads that
Speaker 8: there's only this very specific way to do it and
Speaker 8: we have to do it that way, whether it works
Speaker 8: for us or not, that's inefficient.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 8: Finding a better way for us individually is always going
Speaker 8: to work better.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 10: And I think as an artist, when you're creating a
Speaker 10: creation process of manufacturing whatever your perceived reality is, and
Speaker 10: if you break it down to a formulae or make
Speaker 10: it formulaic, it kind of loses spontity in the natural
Speaker 10: energy of creativity. So I think that that variety of
Speaker 10: you know, possibility, leaves kind of the embers to grow
Speaker 10: over the arder.
Speaker 7: I don't think.
Speaker 8: I don't think having a framework is ever a bad
Speaker 8: idea of likes something that I know works for me.
Speaker 8: So I'm gonna stick within that framework because i know
Speaker 8: I get results. But I'm never going to be afraid
Speaker 8: to experiment within that framework, right right, you know, And
Speaker 8: that's how our practices can get very very specialized but
Speaker 8: very uniquely tailor does where they may not look anything else,
Speaker 8: but if I'm getting results, I'm not gonna worry about.
Speaker 10: That, right And and with money art form the craft,
Speaker 10: you're essentially learning your pool and then you learn the
Speaker 10: nuance elements of how to you know, slightly manipulated them
Speaker 10: to get more exact, you know, servitude out of them.
Speaker 3: Oh yes, now there's you have some other things you
Speaker 3: hit that from that interesting.
Speaker 6: Moon water and uh, I mean you got classic practices moonwater,
Speaker 6: cord coting and anointing.
Speaker 3: What does chaos and discording and framing adds to these basics.
Speaker 8: So with moonwater specifically, moonwater is something that for some
Speaker 8: reason like gets under my skin when and I think
Speaker 8: that the moonwater craze seems to have died down in
Speaker 8: online spaces, but for a while, like you know, you know, hey, witches,
Speaker 8: who's making moon water? Tonight and like you're putting water
Speaker 8: in the jar and the moon controls the tides. Water
Speaker 8: is all. We don't have to make the water more moonish, right,
Speaker 8: Like that used to just make me crazy, so but
Speaker 8: people were also really stressing out about it, like, you know,
Speaker 8: did I did I make my moonwater correctly? Moon water incorrectly?
Speaker 8: So I wanted to give some ideas of like variations
Speaker 8: of just putting water on the windowsill at night and
Speaker 8: getting into the idea of willow water and you know,
Speaker 8: of soaking water, willow clicks and water, because the main ingredient,
Speaker 8: which is an old help tonic and is you know,
Speaker 8: farmers will pour willow water into the roots of plants
Speaker 8: and the bill is a tree that's sort of ruled
Speaker 8: by the moon. But it's the ingredients in willow that
Speaker 8: make it use make it useful as like a topical anesthetic.
Speaker 8: Are the same are process to make aspirin?
Speaker 10: Yes?
Speaker 8: So I was like, if you really want like useful
Speaker 8: moon water, My whole thing was like, get an aspirin.
Speaker 8: It's a little little, tiny moon And if you've got
Speaker 8: a tiny little pan, you can carve a tiny little
Speaker 8: sigil on your aspirin and dissolve that water. You have
Speaker 8: just made willow water, which is a traditional lunar water.
Speaker 8: I wanted people to think outside the box in that
Speaker 8: respect and not get so caught up in the idea
Speaker 8: of right and wrong over something so simple as putting
Speaker 8: water in.
Speaker 7: A jar on the window.
Speaker 10: And interestingly, as far as the whole willow thing within
Speaker 10: the towel mood, they talk about not planting a willow
Speaker 10: tree next to a well because the roots were going
Speaker 10: into the well and by drinking that water on a
Speaker 10: regular basis, it'll actually pull the energy.
Speaker 1: Out of you.
Speaker 8: That makes sense absolutely, that that numbing quality of the willow.
Speaker 8: But so that's like with the with the moon water.
Speaker 8: That was kind of my take on it, of like,
Speaker 8: we don't have to get stressed out about this, and
Speaker 8: we can do it, and we can find other efficient
Speaker 8: ways to do it. With cord cutting people that that's
Speaker 8: another thing where people get really caught up in the
Speaker 8: cord cutting spells and the elaborate tying the you know,
Speaker 8: the piece of thread to the two candles, and you
Speaker 8: like candles, and then you watch the cord burn and
Speaker 8: it's a terrible fire hazard.
Speaker 7: But it's also not.
Speaker 8: Ancient traditional witchcraft, Like the way people are doing it
Speaker 8: now comes from the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina season three.
Speaker 8: I think where does this spell? And it got well
Speaker 8: pop culture has always had an, you know, an impact
Speaker 8: on the occulture, and so after that episode came out,
Speaker 8: suddenly all these people were casting cord cutting spells and
Speaker 8: with in a couple of years. People did not realize
Speaker 8: where it had come from. And we're stressing out about
Speaker 8: it because the way people were doing it with the
Speaker 8: two candles and the thread is more divinatory than anything else, Like,
Speaker 8: how are these two people connected, which one is having
Speaker 8: more influence over the other? Is this a healthy relationship?
Speaker 8: Is this the you know? Did I just burn my
Speaker 8: house down? Like? There's a lot of questions to be
Speaker 8: answered with that. So my take on cord cutting was, well,
Speaker 8: you know, light the candle, if you want to do
Speaker 8: the chords, that's great. Cut the cord yourself, get scissors.
Speaker 8: You imposed your will on the situation. Don't leave it
Speaker 8: up to chance, you know. And then I followed it
Speaker 8: up with and don't post the results on the internet
Speaker 8: because of your cord nobody. You don't need to get
Speaker 8: on Instagram to tell everybody you're doing it because you
Speaker 8: have just reinforced the cords, you know. I was like,
Speaker 8: I like, randomly, when I was writing that particular second,
Speaker 8: I kind of like went off on this whole thing
Speaker 8: about block your exes. Like I was, just like, you've
Speaker 8: got if you're going to do the spell to cut
Speaker 8: people out, you have to cut them out too. You
Speaker 8: have to do the work in the real world to
Speaker 8: bolster you know, cutting the string between your candles.
Speaker 5: When you do said spells or rituals or anything in
Speaker 5: that magical realm, say, for instance, even though to me
Speaker 5: it sounds kind of ridiculous, but like you want to
Speaker 5: find a new girlfriend that's going to resonate with you,
Speaker 5: or a new boyfriend or a new partner or whatever,
Speaker 5: or whatever it is that you know that people do
Speaker 5: if you want to find love. Right, And what he
Speaker 5: states is, yes, do your ritual, do your magic, do
Speaker 5: your thing, but realize that you're not actually doing it
Speaker 5: to manifest a person out there in the world. What
Speaker 5: you're doing it is to vibrate your nervous system to
Speaker 5: change you alchemically, so you can magnetize and rise to
Speaker 5: the frequency of the individual that's already out there in
Speaker 5: the world. So you can then it like rearranges the discord,
Speaker 5: the chaos, if the of the universe into a chance
Speaker 5: happenstance that all of a sudden you can become the
Speaker 5: person that you're trying to attract, right, And I think
Speaker 5: that's kind of similar to something that you were stating
Speaker 5: at the very end, which I think is very important
Speaker 5: and also grounds the whole work and understanding that you're
Speaker 5: not actually manipulating like other people, which I think is
Speaker 5: something that is awful to do. You want to make
Speaker 5: sure you're only ever manipulating your own nervous system. And
Speaker 5: this goes back to Robert Anton Wilson talking about where
Speaker 5: his one of his people was Timothy Leary. And even
Speaker 5: though Timothy Leary in the conspiracy world they want to
Speaker 5: throw a lot of shade on him, if they were
Speaker 5: to read his work like the Eight Circuits of Consciousness,
Speaker 5: the bio saying, you know, what they would understand is
Speaker 5: that he had two laws and the first one was
Speaker 5: you know, one of them was don't change without their
Speaker 5: knowing anybody else's consciousness, which I think is really important,
Speaker 5: especially because he was doing work on LSD for Harvard
Speaker 5: at that time. You know what I mean, and so
Speaker 5: it's like, I think it's it's important talk when it
Speaker 5: comes to chaos magic in and of itself, because it
Speaker 5: gets a little chaotic.
Speaker 9: I'm actually going to follow you up round in, but
Speaker 9: not correct you this time, because I actually I actually
Speaker 9: agree with you. I think that it is I think
Speaker 9: the idea of a causality in magic is actually really important,
Speaker 9: and I think that people should actually consider. I know
Speaker 9: that you said to thump her about like imposing your
Speaker 9: well for cord cutting, and I'm not against that, but
Speaker 9: I also think, like how much do you want to
Speaker 9: implicate yourself? You know, Like we have an rass figure
Speaker 9: in I'm a Vagoriana Buddhist, so for me, we have
Speaker 9: an Airas figure in dharma. Her name is Eka Jatti.
Speaker 9: I've spoken about her many times on the show and
Speaker 9: on my show, and you know she's she's the goddess
Speaker 9: of mamos, which is the Tibetan word for chaos. So
Speaker 9: they're very similar. I'm not saying they're exactly the same,
Speaker 9: but they have they have an overlap, we'll say. And
Speaker 9: so I like to look at if for my own practices,
Speaker 9: I try and be a causal Now I understand, like
Speaker 9: I am a sorcerer also, so I get that it's
Speaker 9: never going to be one hundred percent perfect, and I
Speaker 9: recognize and accept that. But I try, and I think
Speaker 9: that it is about view like that's how we would
Speaker 9: say in like a Buddhist sorcery way, It's about like
Speaker 9: how you view it. Do you cultivate bodichiita? Do you
Speaker 9: like do all these preliminary things that would be a
Speaker 9: way to make like your sorcery a causal. So I try.
Speaker 9: I do think what Brandon is saying is important because
Speaker 9: I think that people should not want to implicate their
Speaker 9: karma so deeply in an whether you agree with my framing,
Speaker 9: not you Thumber, but just anyone listening broadly if they
Speaker 9: agree with my a and of the daughter framework or not,
Speaker 9: or they still think we're in Caliyuga, which the contrast
Speaker 9: say we're not. So I don't think we are. So
Speaker 9: I just sim I'm saying that do you want to
Speaker 9: be stuck in the degraded a on? I personally don't.
Speaker 9: I want to move forward with the aon. That's just me.
Speaker 9: So I think that this idea of like a cause
Speaker 9: out and looking to lighten your karmic load. Maybe you
Speaker 9: could say is actually important to think about. Just think about,
Speaker 9: just as an idea.
Speaker 4: Got nice, nice gin, I can be.
Speaker 9: Good to you. I'm not just leftime path and evil.
Speaker 7: I know you can.
Speaker 4: I know, and I see within your eyes that I've
Speaker 4: never truly saw.
Speaker 8: I do like the idea of a causality, and I
Speaker 8: do think one thing that tripped a lot of modern
Speaker 8: practitioners is kind of fear of consequence. And you know,
Speaker 8: if I, if I do something, you know, people are
Speaker 8: and it's it's where people get caught up in either
Speaker 8: a lot well today people get caught up in like
Speaker 8: bashing the idea of the threefold law, you know, and
Speaker 8: that's wicked and that's silly. And then somebody people mention
Speaker 8: a love spell and they be like, oh no, if
Speaker 8: you cast a love spell, that will rebound back upon
Speaker 8: you somewhere between two and four times. Right Like, they're
Speaker 8: still caught up in that idea of the content sequence.
Speaker 8: But all actions have consequence. Consequence is not necessarily a
Speaker 8: bad thing, right Like if I if I write a
Speaker 8: glowing five star review for a friend's book and that
Speaker 8: results in the book selling better, that's a good consequence. Right,
Speaker 8: Like it's like I still still my actions. It's just
Speaker 8: the consequence worked out well for everyone. Consequences don't have
Speaker 8: to be negative. And we also and we don't have
Speaker 8: to always be worried about, you know, how much damage
Speaker 8: are we doing. We can also just kind of think
Speaker 8: in terms of, you know, how can I how can
Speaker 8: I make things work out for not only myself but
Speaker 8: for the people around me? You know, how can I
Speaker 8: have these things where I'm causing the least amount of
Speaker 8: collateral collateral damage while still getting the results I want?
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think it's something to think about.
Speaker 5: Also how important especially in the magical world, but not
Speaker 5: even that, just everyday life. There are there is a
Speaker 5: real dichotomy between harm and dissonance, and we hear it
Speaker 5: in music and it is two opposite polls of That's
Speaker 5: why sacred geometry works. That's why the music of the
Speaker 5: Spheares was talking about with the Pythagorian cults and how
Speaker 5: we could create music itself, you kind of these things,
Speaker 5: you know, and so it's like that would be something
Speaker 5: to think about when we're trying to understand while it's
Speaker 5: you know, it's the least possible consequence, but at the
Speaker 5: same time, it's like, can we also try to make
Speaker 5: it so consequence is harmonious with things, because when it's dissonant,
Speaker 5: that's when karma, we could say, is produced because we're
Speaker 5: kind of going against the flow. Or in Crolly's words
Speaker 5: of the AA, it's that every man and every woman
Speaker 5: is a star. And so when he's talking about that,
Speaker 5: what that means is that we are all in the
Speaker 5: universe as stars moving perfectly with the harmony of the spheres.
Speaker 5: And it's when my interpretation is that when we move
Speaker 5: through the world in a dissonance state, that's when all
Speaker 5: of a sudden stars collide. And we could use moral
Speaker 5: ambiguous terms, which I think is really important. But you know,
Speaker 5: because this is like, well that just happens in the universe, Well,
Speaker 5: it's like, well, then look, can we also understand that
Speaker 5: that has its own levels of chaotic dissonant reflections through
Speaker 5: the cause effect making machine of the universe. These things
Speaker 5: I ponder continuously.
Speaker 3: What managed to I guess you over time, results of revelations.
Speaker 8: You know, both are important because I still like getting results,
Speaker 8: But revelation and understanding has become the older I get,
Speaker 8: the more important that gets you know I think fifteen. No,
Speaker 8: if you had ask me that, I would say, I
Speaker 8: don't have to understand something for it to work, and
Speaker 8: I would be more caught up in the in the
Speaker 8: work itself. Today, what I find so fascinating, especially about
Speaker 8: the cult, is like the more is learning more about
Speaker 8: the history and the connections and and you know where
Speaker 8: ideas came from, and how new ideas connect to old ideas,
Speaker 8: and the uh one of the biggest I think I
Speaker 8: mentioned this in the book towards the end, but as
Speaker 8: an example, several years ago, I was introduced to listenmancy
Speaker 8: listmantic divination, divination with stones, and it was sort of
Speaker 8: pitched to me as like, this is like ancient witchcraft.
Speaker 8: This is you know, the the ancient seers of Greece
Speaker 8: and Rome would cast the pebbles and see the future.
Speaker 7: And I was I.
Speaker 8: Started looking into it, and I started experimenting with it,
Speaker 8: and it worked really well for me, and the more
Speaker 8: I Dug and Doug and Doug, cause I was like,
Speaker 8: but I want to find the source of this, Like
Speaker 8: what documents do we have that ancient Greeks and Romans
Speaker 8: were throwing were casting the pebbles? And I was able
Speaker 8: to trace the history of modern litzmancy all the way
Speaker 8: back to nineteen seventy eight and a book on Witchcraft
Speaker 8: for Tomorrow by Duren Valiante where she has a section
Speaker 8: on listomancy and the practice of listmancy continued, but nobody
Speaker 8: remembered to write down where they found it. So today
Speaker 8: when you pick up a book on lismancy, it is
Speaker 8: the origin of the Listhmantic divination are shrouded in history,
Speaker 8: and no they're not. They're shrouded in nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 8: But on the one hand, I get results from them,
Speaker 8: so it doesn't matter that they come from the seventies
Speaker 8: instead of you know, antiquity. But I also find it
Speaker 8: so fascinating that they came from nineteen seventy eight and
Speaker 8: that this one witch in England figured this out on
Speaker 8: our own and created a system that could be replicated,
Speaker 8: And that history is more interesting to me whether than
Speaker 8: if it had been well, this is how an ancient
Speaker 8: Greek was doing, like the learning problems of it. Of wow,
Speaker 8: this which in the seventies just invented this. That's amazing.
Speaker 8: That revelation is cooler to be than anything else.
Speaker 9: I want to respond to that really quick, because I
Speaker 9: find that really interesting also that you said from nineteen
Speaker 9: seventy eight, simply because this is true for a lot
Speaker 9: of modern magic. It does seem to be true for
Speaker 9: a lot of modern magic. It seems to be a
Speaker 9: lot of recreation, like not just not just not just
Speaker 9: from the you know, the New Age, like nineteen se
Speaker 9: I'm not putting it down because some of that stuff
Speaker 9: does work, and I think that you're very very prescient
Speaker 9: that you say that that you can get results from it,
Speaker 9: because you can because it is based on older ideas,
Speaker 9: but we don't even know what those ideas are. Which
Speaker 9: is sometimes my issue with some of the institutional formations
Speaker 9: of magic is that they will pretend I call it
Speaker 9: the Great Wewiz King's Larp. I'm sorry, I'm not trying
Speaker 9: to find anyone, but I thought it is what I
Speaker 9: call it. You know, they they tend to project themselves
Speaker 9: into the antiquity. We don't know what the fuck they
Speaker 9: were practicing, just to speak really plainly, and so it's
Speaker 9: really difficult to then be like, Okay, this is what
Speaker 9: we're going to do in twenty twenty six, just like
Speaker 9: these quote unquote ancient Wei was kinges, Well, we can't
Speaker 9: do that, so we have to actually use what is pragmatic,
Speaker 9: what actually worked, and if it comes from a during
Speaker 9: val Ante book, so be it. What's the big deal?
Speaker 10: And it's just a matter of each individual finding these
Speaker 10: necessary tools to be able to draw out, you know,
Speaker 10: and make these things workable.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm gonna say I like what everything Buddy's saying,
Speaker 5: because there is something definitely beautiful about the idea that
Speaker 5: everything stems from the human nervous system body mind, sysogy,
Speaker 5: you know. So it's like, of course we're going to
Speaker 5: be able to tap into these things if we have
Speaker 5: the right passion, madness and different things like that. But
Speaker 5: what's really important I think also why it's like, not
Speaker 5: all things are magic. I believe in magic and all things,
Speaker 5: but not all things are magic, and so it seems
Speaker 5: to be a contradiction, but it's not. Because if you
Speaker 5: want to hammer and nail, it's the best thing to
Speaker 5: use as a hammer. You can use your shoe. It
Speaker 5: just might take longer. And so there's something really interesting
Speaker 5: with that. It's like there are structoral systems that can
Speaker 5: be used by individual practitioners, and we may not know
Speaker 5: exactly how that came through time. But what I'm coming
Speaker 5: to understand more is that if we can use the
Speaker 5: term philosophy, right, the philosophia this thing where you can
Speaker 5: learn how to critically think, how to analyze, and how
Speaker 5: to break things down in a structoral that love of wisdom,
Speaker 5: break it down in a way, you know, then we
Speaker 5: can Actually that's how magic works, right, is that you
Speaker 5: have a science and art of causing change with your will.
Speaker 5: Even though it's like a massively hated definition, especially by
Speaker 5: those who are who have stemmed them through the different
Speaker 5: institutions and organizations like the Golden Dawn, these things like that.
Speaker 5: They want to go away from things like that. But
Speaker 5: it's like, if we can find the science of it,
Speaker 5: and you know, and I don't mean this functional mechanistic science,
Speaker 5: but that philosophia, that love of wisdom, that ability to
Speaker 5: put yourself into a state of ecstasy. That's why another
Speaker 5: Crowley book or thing that he wrote was The The
Speaker 5: Enthusiastic Ecstasy, right this and that's you know done, yeah exactly,
Speaker 5: that's done through either your divine dance or the harmony
Speaker 5: of the spheres for the Apollo. That's how you can
Speaker 5: break it into the Apollonian, the Dionesian. But there is
Speaker 5: something that you can do to gain the best results,
Speaker 5: and it's not everything. So it's like there's a it's
Speaker 5: a fine line if that, if any of that makes sense.
Speaker 8: That was one thing that for me was very refreshing
Speaker 8: about both discordyanisment chaos magic is that neither system makes
Speaker 8: any bones about being ancient. And you know, the pioneers
Speaker 8: of chaos magic, we're taking structural systems and reworking them
Speaker 8: to try to make them more efficient. Discordianism took this
Speaker 8: one myth from Greek mythology and built something entirely new
Speaker 8: out of it, and they were very open about that.
Speaker 8: And you know, throughout the history of occultism, I think
Speaker 8: it really started picking up steam with the rights of theosophy.
Speaker 8: But even pre theosophy, you know, the guy in the
Speaker 8: late seventeen hundreds who started using tarot cards for divination
Speaker 8: didn't say, hey, guys, look what I can do.
Speaker 7: He said, oh, this comes to us from ancient Egypt.
Speaker 10: And it was like, no, it was.
Speaker 8: An Anglican priest in seventeen ninety nine, the Key of Almen,
Speaker 8: it was. It was the fifteen hundreds, but not much
Speaker 8: further back than that, but even back then it was
Speaker 8: this idea, but this is ancient, which means it's real
Speaker 8: and valid, and well it doesn't right.
Speaker 10: I was gonna say the Bohemian Taro that is by Pappus,
Speaker 10: it claims to be the most ancient book in the world,
Speaker 10: and you know, so, yeah, you consist, but this is
Speaker 10: something you consistently need to get it like the templars
Speaker 10: you know later on claiming lineage or the resecrutions even
Speaker 10: claiming lineage, and it just adds. It's this power multiplier.
Speaker 10: It's a way to excite the nervous system in a
Speaker 10: way that you're participating with something that echoes back into
Speaker 10: the dawn of you know, human thinking in the mind
Speaker 10: and and who we are as a species.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and theosophy really introduced that utopian idea that before,
Speaker 8: you know, before all this modern stuff was going on
Speaker 8: human and that's what it's. Modern cultures, without realizing that
Speaker 8: are still thinking in terms of ancient utopia, when if
Speaker 8: we transported them back to that time very quickly, they'd
Speaker 8: be like, this is not a utopia, this is not.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 8: But we do have that sort of idealism about accultism
Speaker 8: a lot of times, and that needs me in order
Speaker 8: to be valid.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 8: One of the big one thing I hear a lot
Speaker 8: about in social media when people are complaining about Wika
Speaker 8: it's new, but rich Craft is old, and I'm like, well,
Speaker 8: all your witch coming from the same sources that Wika did.
Speaker 8: You're just you're, yeah, you're you're you're promoting this ancient
Speaker 8: witch cult idea that you are also saying has been discredited,
Speaker 8: and yet you are still wanting us to believe it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, And that's just That's exactly what Francis Dame
Speaker 5: Yeats was wrote about in her Hermitica Traditions with Geodorno
Speaker 5: Bruno is that there's this great argument that thoth Hermes
Speaker 5: the thrice Great was this ancient, ancient you know, and
Speaker 5: her Meticism is this ancient, ancient, ancient thing from thousand
Speaker 5: two thousand DC, when really it actually was the syncretic
Speaker 5: integration of Platonism, Neoplatonism, Stoicism, and their philosophies had actually
Speaker 5: reached a point where they couldn't They were like, we
Speaker 5: don't know what else to do, and then all of
Speaker 5: a sudden they integrate all these ritual and the different things,
Speaker 5: and all of a sudden they come up with her
Speaker 5: Meticism when you know, even though you know, integrating the
Speaker 5: Gnostic texts as well and the Emerald tablets that were
Speaker 5: you know, before them, but it's a fastcame. It's just
Speaker 5: a sac same thing of like, oh, Hermes the Thrice,
Speaker 5: you know, that whole thing.
Speaker 10: Yeah, And interestingly with Hermes, you know, from t Hoodie
Speaker 10: to Thaw to Hermes the Mercury, it's always been kind
Speaker 10: of related to the idea of it's the conscious brain
Speaker 10: of society as a whole, and all of these scientific
Speaker 10: works are kind of the the process of humanity kind
Speaker 10: of bringing forth these ideas as the mind of the divine.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, nice, and I will I do want the
Speaker 5: audience to know there is such thing as the Tholth cult,
Speaker 5: there is such thing as the Hermes cult. There was
Speaker 5: and there are the theogia, right, the divine workings of
Speaker 5: ancient Egyptian and the orphic mysteries and the Pythagorene mysteries
Speaker 5: that stem through and you can see it written in
Speaker 5: Plato's works. And so it's not that those things weren't happening,
Speaker 5: it's that the Hermetic tradition is in thousands of years old,
Speaker 5: but it's a syncretized understanding of those things, similar to
Speaker 5: what you're talking about, Thumper, with witchcraft and wiganism. It
Speaker 5: is that amalgamation of things, and now we have a
Speaker 5: new label for it. So for the modern thinker to think,
Speaker 5: then it's.
Speaker 8: Ancient, yeah, absolutely, and modern witchcraft it's it's I'm far
Speaker 8: too old to be on TikTok, but they let me
Speaker 8: on anyway. But that's one thing that I put a
Speaker 8: lot of effort into pointing out the origins of current
Speaker 8: witchcraft trends and ideas, because a lot of what people
Speaker 8: present as traditional witchcraft is an amalgamation of WICCA, chaos
Speaker 8: magic and who do. Because in the late two thousands
Speaker 8: there was this big online thing where the movie The
Speaker 8: Skeleton Key came out in two thousand and six, a
Speaker 8: bunch of pagans Google who Do, found an online correspondence course,
Speaker 8: appropriated a whole bunch of it. Again, did not write
Speaker 8: down their sources. So ten years later everybody was like,
Speaker 8: this is ancient traditional witchcraft, and I'm like, that's a
Speaker 8: sour jar from nineteen thirty nine. That is not ancient
Speaker 8: traditional witchcraft. That is African American folk magic, right. White
Speaker 8: people set it down right, but people don't. People don't
Speaker 8: know the history, and there's sort of this collective amnesia
Speaker 8: around it at times where painting and evolving, which is great,
Speaker 8: but it would help to know where it comes from,
Speaker 8: so we're not always so we're not always claiming that
Speaker 8: it is ten thousand years old.
Speaker 9: I want to respond to that as like someone who
Speaker 9: has well, like Nick and I have done shows on
Speaker 9: like different afrosyncritic traditions. Okayeah, we did a long form
Speaker 9: series on that, and I'm regretting his name now de
Speaker 9: Lawrence Company. Laurence Company published from Chicago, So I'm quite
Speaker 9: familiar with the who doo sort of methodology and like
Speaker 9: the history. I think that's a really great point you
Speaker 9: brought up how there was an infusion especially in that
Speaker 9: like the Catherine Ironwood like all her you know, all
Speaker 9: her books, and her book is really good, like her book,
Speaker 9: her her book. I'm not saying it's like better than
Speaker 9: any her book in twenty twenty six, but I was
Speaker 9: saying that I would personally still I mean, I still
Speaker 9: own it and I still think it's one of my
Speaker 9: best her books. So I'm just saying, like you want,
Speaker 9: like some real real shit. It's it's good. And I
Speaker 9: also think that I think it was even before. I
Speaker 9: think it was like the Hermann Slater like the kind
Speaker 9: of like the oil making that kind of like New
Speaker 9: York chaos, magic, leftime path, like Oto crowd. I think
Speaker 9: that they were also like very much informed by like
Speaker 9: the kind of like card readers of the Bronx and
Speaker 9: the Botanica culture of like I guess it's Brooklyn, but
Speaker 9: like Harlem and like all all of those kinds of things.
Speaker 9: Like I think that magic and I've said this so
Speaker 9: many times, so I apologize, But you know, magic works
Speaker 9: better together because gnosis and knowledge worked better together because
Speaker 9: only in synthesis can you actually understand the contour of
Speaker 9: the truth. So like what actually works, That's what I think.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 9: Oh, hold up, hold, I was second thought. I had
Speaker 9: you read it again.
Speaker 8: About the background place. No, I absolutely agree with you,
Speaker 8: and I think that what especially when you mentioned Herman Slater, right,
Speaker 8: he was the owner of what was originally called the
Speaker 8: Warlock Shop and then eventually became Magical Child. This this
Speaker 8: kind of iconic a cult shop in New York and
Speaker 8: he was putting out he was you know, he had
Speaker 8: a publishing arm and was putting out books on how
Speaker 8: to make magical oils that was very influenced by.
Speaker 7: A lot of.
Speaker 8: By the folk magic of marginalized groups who were also
Speaker 8: shopping at Magical Child. And the same thing with the
Speaker 8: store in my area that the first time I went there,
Speaker 8: I was expecting kind of a new age bookstore, and
Speaker 8: I walked into what appeared to be a Yarborea and
Speaker 8: I was like, this feels a little weird and appropriate
Speaker 8: of why are we, you know, keeping all the neat
Speaker 8: high end new Age astrology books next to all the
Speaker 8: Africa Arabean religious products. And I just mentioned something in
Speaker 8: passing to the owner and she was like, oh, well,
Speaker 8: we have all these customers coming in who practice these
Speaker 8: religions and they don't want to have to drive all
Speaker 8: the way across town to the Mojo store on the
Speaker 8: other side of downtown, so they asked me to start
Speaker 8: carrying it. So you know that, I think something very
Speaker 8: similar happened in New York, where Slater was carrying products
Speaker 8: and manufacturing products for a specific customer base, which in
Speaker 8: itself is kind of syncretic. What happened with Lucky Mojo
Speaker 8: was that when the pagan community discovered this online who
Speaker 8: Do resource, there was an idea at the time that
Speaker 8: anything magical was pagan, that if that Christians could not
Speaker 8: practice magic, that you couldn't be Christian and believe in magic.
Speaker 8: So these Pagans were sort of flooding into these online
Speaker 8: spaces that were designed for who Do and for African
Speaker 8: American root work, and we're asking things like, well, how
Speaker 8: do you reconcile this Christianity with your pagan beliefs? And
Speaker 8: the roots were like, well, we're not pagan. And the
Speaker 8: Pagans got this idea of like we must save the
Speaker 8: magic from the Christians, right, And they also didn't really
Speaker 8: want to follow rules, so they didn't want to be
Speaker 8: you know, we're witches. Nobody tells us what to do.
Speaker 8: So they were you know, like signing up for the
Speaker 8: Lucky Mojor course, getting the textbook and plagiarizing it, or
Speaker 8: getting the textbook, bailing from the course and setting up
Speaker 8: a website announcing themselves as a spiritual worker. And I
Speaker 8: was like, huh, funny, last week you were a high
Speaker 8: priestess Evanana and now you're a spiritual worker. Interesting, but
Speaker 8: that's where you know. Today we hear a lot about
Speaker 8: cultural appropriation and the Pagans are very, you know, strong
Speaker 8: fielding about cultural appropriation, but they don't really know what
Speaker 8: it is and they choose not to remember actual appropriation
Speaker 8: happening in real time. I may have gone a little
Speaker 8: there ideo for that, I have strong feelings about it.
Speaker 9: I think this is an interesting question. Sorry guys, but
Speaker 9: do you think that what you're raising number is an
Speaker 9: interesting question? Like what is cultural appropriation as it relates
Speaker 9: to magic? Like for me personally, I'm mixed. I've grown
Speaker 9: everybody knows I have grown up. I grew up in
Speaker 9: Asia and Canada and the US, all three throughout my
Speaker 9: entire life, and I'm by Raylf. So for me, I
Speaker 9: don't personally believe in cultural appropriation as long as people
Speaker 9: are approaching the system with just a general respect, as
Speaker 9: you should with all magical things, and you're not taking
Speaker 9: them outside of the context of which they are understood.
Speaker 9: So I'm totally okay with people using different Obviously, that's
Speaker 9: very chaos magic like using very like, you know, utilizing
Speaker 9: the different methods like a honey jar is a great
Speaker 9: wealth draw it's a great wealth tool that it shouldn't
Speaker 9: just be like, oh, yeah, you can't use Hyjohn because
Speaker 9: you're not from this thing. No, I mean I think
Speaker 9: that you can. I just think that you should actually
Speaker 9: know the story, like understand like Rayer Rabbit and the
Speaker 9: you know, the whole mythology is behind it, both Native
Speaker 9: and African American. I think that that's a really important
Speaker 9: like the lore building. People forget about that, and I
Speaker 9: think that's also what you're referring to when you're talking
Speaker 9: about like the cultural amnesia. People have forgotten the lore.
Speaker 9: But the lore is at least well, we'll say one tenth,
Speaker 9: we'll say one magic number, one tenth of like all
Speaker 9: kind of like and like the way that you build
Speaker 9: your own paradigm. If you want to use a really
Speaker 9: chaos magic kind of framework, you need the lore, like
Speaker 9: you want to use forty K like the slaw Niche
Speaker 9: and instead of eras and like all those like little
Speaker 9: dudes like LDR's and all that. That's fine, but you
Speaker 9: still have to know the lore and you have to
Speaker 9: understand how like the classes and the systems and the
Speaker 9: little you know, machine guns work properly, because it won't
Speaker 9: really make sense. It's not a it has to have
Speaker 9: an internal coherent logic. So I just I really, but
Speaker 9: I think it's important to have the discussion because it
Speaker 9: does come up a lot, like what is cultural appropriation
Speaker 9: in magic? And like for me, I just think if
Speaker 9: someone wants to pray to Green Tara, that's fine, that's great.
Speaker 9: I highly think I think that's amazing, like because I
Speaker 9: think it actually will start to transform their minds, even
Speaker 9: if they don't think it will. It's just because everything
Speaker 9: is so online, Like there's so much much information, Like
Speaker 9: you can look up so much who do root work stuff?
Speaker 9: You can work, look up you can go resor Neil
Speaker 9: thir Hurston. I mean her book's really good if you
Speaker 9: are just wanting to learn, like who do candle magic?
Speaker 9: And like basic saint magic from like the Bahamas or
Speaker 9: from Jamaica and how they were actually working. It's very basic.
Speaker 9: I don't mean basic in like a a like a
Speaker 9: bad way. I mean basic is in like the their
Speaker 9: color correspondences are very different than the ones that people
Speaker 9: normally use. Their saint correspondences are are different. But it's
Speaker 9: just it's simple. It's like very it's householder, it's everyone
Speaker 9: can actually access the technologies needed to do it. So
Speaker 9: I think that there's a great system for especially for
Speaker 9: American magicians since they're here on the land that is
Speaker 9: like America, Like why not tap into that like greater
Speaker 9: knowledge of root work. That's just my opinion, but you
Speaker 9: can definitely number. You can feel free to disagree or
Speaker 9: anything you want to say.
Speaker 8: I agree, especially when you said context because when it
Speaker 8: comes to cultural corporation, context is key. The way I
Speaker 8: define cultural corporation is, first of all, it's not really
Speaker 8: something one person does by themselves, unless you're going but
Speaker 8: for the most part, it is it is something that
Speaker 8: is cultural, like that is a group that is a
Speaker 8: group is doing, so I define it as cultural corporation
Speaker 8: occurs when a dominant group adopts the traditions or fashions,
Speaker 8: or music or magical practices of a marginalized group, takes
Speaker 8: those things out of context and then either prevents the
Speaker 8: marginalized group from having access to those things, condemns the
Speaker 8: marginalized group for continuing to practice those things, or pretends
Speaker 8: that the marginalized or that those things did not originate
Speaker 8: within the marginalized group. So it's it's a complete It
Speaker 8: has to do with the removing the context when in
Speaker 8: regards to paganism and who do you know, folk magic
Speaker 8: in general and witchcraft and these things, you know, always
Speaker 8: have fuzzy edges. Things are going to drift in from
Speaker 8: folk matt from one one regional folk magic practice to
Speaker 8: him other. Like four thieves vinegar pops up in folk
Speaker 8: magic across the US, and it's an old Renaissance Italian
Speaker 8: health tonic that's used in magic in the US today.
Speaker 8: But the it's like something like a sour jar is
Speaker 8: a really good idea or what people talk about return
Speaker 8: to send your spells right now. Those are things that
Speaker 8: originated within the multiple practices of marginalized groups. So when
Speaker 8: somebody says, you know, this road opener spell is ancient
Speaker 8: traditional witchcraft, no it's not. That's not where it can
Speaker 8: It did not come from Europe, you know, the which
Speaker 8: is the old European witches were not casting their road
Speaker 8: opener spells and their return to sender spells. Those are
Speaker 8: things that came out of the faulk magic of marginalized groups.
Speaker 8: But we are pretending that it's ancient traditional witchcraft that
Speaker 8: is appropriative the fact that all these Pagans swooped in
Speaker 8: and started incorporating who do into their practices, but taking
Speaker 8: it out of the context of African American fault magic,
Speaker 8: disregarding the lore behind it, and just rebranding it as
Speaker 8: witchcraft is appropriative. And it wasn't just one person doing it.
Speaker 7: It was one.
Speaker 8: Community descending it to another community and taking everything to
Speaker 8: make that's one person. Like if I were to go
Speaker 8: pick up a book on Hudu and flip through it
Speaker 8: and be like, oh, hey, a freezer spyle, I want
Speaker 8: to give that a shot. That's not appropriative, right, That's
Speaker 8: just me trying something in my kitchen. But if I
Speaker 8: were to make a TikTok video and say today we're
Speaker 8: going to talk about the ancient traditional European witchcraft of
Speaker 8: freezer spells, I've taken the freezer spell out of its
Speaker 8: context and I'm claiming ownership of it, and I'm disregarding
Speaker 8: where it came from.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 8: And the big thing with with the kids today, with
Speaker 8: their with their blue hair and their pronouns, I'm two
Speaker 8: genics for my own good is you know, they think
Speaker 8: of wick as cultural appropriation. They don't know why wickeed
Speaker 8: is cultural appropriation. They have just decided that Wicket is
Speaker 8: the source of the cultural appropriation because that way, especially
Speaker 8: since so many occult practitioners and online spaces are of
Speaker 8: European descent, it makes it's a way of absolving themselves
Speaker 8: of anything wickeds appropriate. I'm not wicked, so I'm not
Speaker 8: capable of doing that, and by doing that, they are
Speaker 8: ignoring their own appropriated behaviors and inclinations, and they're not
Speaker 8: realizing that it's not a wicked problem. It is a
Speaker 8: white people problem. Again with the rants, I sometimes about
Speaker 8: things too well, it's.
Speaker 7: The dice.
Speaker 2: Online.
Speaker 11: I don't go to those, and I do have a
Speaker 11: pagan background Wiccan background, so I'm kind of surprised that
Speaker 11: maybe it's the newer what they call the baby witches
Speaker 11: go into these spaces because you mentioned earlier that you
Speaker 11: are initiated into I want to say Alexandrian or Gardenerian Gardenerian.
Speaker 11: I'm sorry I always mix the two up. I do apologize,
Speaker 11: but within WICCA and Paganism, you do have that initia
Speaker 11: that you know, you go through initiations too, and you
Speaker 11: have to keep your ols. So I'm trying to figure
Speaker 11: out why do they think it's okay because a lot
Speaker 11: of those Caribbean religions are also initiatory and they also
Speaker 11: have their secrets to just dive in there, and they're
Speaker 11: not as nice as the Wicked community. I'm just going
Speaker 11: to say it that way and just grab the stuff
Speaker 11: and say it's ours. And there's a lot of habits.
Speaker 11: I guess I haven't been around to see because I've
Speaker 11: been doing my own work that.
Speaker 7: This whole discussion.
Speaker 11: I'm like, Oh, as a ceremonial magician, I used to
Speaker 11: try these techniques, so they were familiar to me. So
Speaker 11: I'm like, where's a chaos part? But if that's what
Speaker 11: they're calling chaos magic.
Speaker 8: Within online spaces, especially online and cult spaces, terms get trendy,
Speaker 8: ideas get trendy, and people have a tendency of adopting
Speaker 8: those terms without understanding where they come from. So the
Speaker 8: idea of chaos magic got popular for a while and
Speaker 8: people were like, oh, I I got it, but they
Speaker 8: didn't have the context, so they just thought chaos meant
Speaker 8: some sloppy and disciplined and crazy and like fly by
Speaker 8: the seat of your pants. In the late nineties. By
Speaker 8: the late nineties, WICKA was starting to get very trendy.
Speaker 8: Most modern Pagans was in the US sort of like
Speaker 8: you know this, this witchcraft came over from England to
Speaker 8: New York, the term Wicca started coming into use. The
Speaker 8: modern pagan community kind of grew out of the Wicked
Speaker 8: community and developed at something. Wicca itself tended to evolve
Speaker 8: where there's Gardnerian and Alexandrian, but non initiatory. Wicked became
Speaker 8: in saying eclectic. Wicca became a thing, and by the
Speaker 8: nineties this idea of wick it was very trendy. The
Speaker 8: New Age industry kind of jumped on it and started
Speaker 8: calling a kind of a whole lot of stuff that
Speaker 8: wasn't really wick and wicked, you know, or just sort
Speaker 8: of kind of just processing wicca along with an amalgamation
Speaker 8: of a whole bunch of different ideas, usually Eastern ideas
Speaker 8: and Hinduism, and sort of using Wicca as like the
Speaker 8: type face on the packaging for back they were saying it.
Speaker 8: So younger occultists today who don't know the history of
Speaker 8: Wicked and don't realize there was a whole that there
Speaker 8: were generations of Wickans before the New Age Wicca of
Speaker 8: the early two thousands see that, and they think that's
Speaker 8: all Wicke is. And they pick up a book on
Speaker 8: Wicca and I'm paraphrasing a lot of things there, but
Speaker 8: they pick up a book on Wicca, they open it up,
Speaker 8: they see the mention of white sage and they go,
Speaker 8: this is cultural appropriation. And because white white sage is
Speaker 8: a closed practice, white sage is a plant. The religious
Speaker 8: use of white white stage is part of a closed community.
Speaker 8: But there's this idea that well, that this is appropriation,
Speaker 8: which is just appropriation. But because they don't know the
Speaker 8: history of their practices, they don't realize that a lot
Speaker 8: of their own practices are rooted in Wicca, and that
Speaker 8: you know that the modern pagan movement is the holidays
Speaker 8: and the Wheel of the Year and the ritual practices
Speaker 8: and the four Elements and the ritual knife and blessed
Speaker 8: b all of that came from Wicca, and they don't
Speaker 8: realize it. So they are still practicing Wicked today while
Speaker 8: condemning Wicca for being something that they refused to identify
Speaker 8: as it's a it's a it's a strange space. I
Speaker 8: was not online for about ten years. I was doing
Speaker 8: other stuff and I left online space with when everybody
Speaker 8: was like, we're wicked. We came back on and everybody
Speaker 8: was condemning Wika, and I was like.
Speaker 6: Miss something that I had noticed, Like I guess kind
Speaker 6: of with the chaos magic first off, a lot of
Speaker 6: the I'm just gonna keep it real, a lot of
Speaker 6: the younger crowd just seemed to have like kind of
Speaker 6: like just kind.
Speaker 7: Of screwed that up.
Speaker 3: And then but also and I.
Speaker 6: And I think because it just seemed to resonate one
Speaker 6: with the other, I also noticed a lot of people
Speaker 6: then gravitating towards like, well, I'm going to be into
Speaker 6: like Thelma because I could take do what that will
Speaker 6: fuck that off just as much as I'm fucking off
Speaker 6: the idea of chaos magic. And it all basically comes
Speaker 6: down to I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want
Speaker 6: when I want, you know what I'm saying. And it's
Speaker 6: just like I did notice even like a lot of
Speaker 6: that even happening with the misunderstanding of both. It's like
Speaker 6: somehow it's amazing how they I just noticed a lot
Speaker 6: of them kind of come together or a lot of
Speaker 6: chaos magicians would have like athleenic edge to them.
Speaker 3: I just sawt in seeing this was like a thing.
Speaker 3: You know, at one point.
Speaker 8: There are trends within occult spaces, just like there are
Speaker 8: anywhere else, and it, you know, there is the chaos.
Speaker 8: The trend of chast witchcraft or chass magic tends to
Speaker 8: be evening out a little bit. I think the reason
Speaker 8: why there was such a sudden interest in it again
Speaker 8: has to do with pop culture because in by the
Speaker 8: mid eighties in England, people were writing about the death
Speaker 8: of chaos magic, that this is all coming to an end,
Speaker 8: like the paradigm is over. And then suddenly in the
Speaker 8: mid mid to light two thousands people have this renewed
Speaker 8: interest and it has to do with Marvel Comics because
Speaker 8: the character of the Scarlet Witch, who's this you know,
Speaker 8: kind of cor avenger. Her power set was redefined and
Speaker 8: was and somebody at Marvel picked up the term chaos magic.
Speaker 8: So the term chast magic started getting into everybody's head again.
Speaker 8: And then the Scarlet which was incorporated into the cinematic universe.
Speaker 8: There was the One Division limited seriesies and there's this
Speaker 8: idea which is a chaos magic. And suddenly in online
Speaker 8: spaces you see all these kids going, I'm a.
Speaker 7: Chast witch and they don't know about history of cast magic.
Speaker 8: They don't you know, they don't understand the idea of
Speaker 8: of principle or discipline or all these things that are
Speaker 8: kind of inherent to cast magic. They just know the
Speaker 8: term and it resonates with them, but they don't realize
Speaker 8: how it got into their heads in the first place.
Speaker 7: And it's not about that it came.
Speaker 8: From pop culture, but it's like it should be acknowledged.
Speaker 10: I think also you have the uh hundred million culture
Speaker 10: in William Burrow's kind of being a big promoter of
Speaker 10: chaos magic with this cut up method. And yeah, he
Speaker 10: writes about in the was it the Reds series? He
Speaker 10: wrote there at the end, you know.
Speaker 5: Yeah that And I mean I think I feel like
Speaker 5: I talk about it all the time, but Grant Morrison
Speaker 5: and The Invisibles was the he just like exploded chaos
Speaker 5: magic all over everyone's face, if you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 5: And it's like that is one of the main reasons
Speaker 5: he even using certain ecstatic disciplines to make sure his
Speaker 5: comic book series even was able to continue or very
Speaker 5: you know, it's very chaos magic. I find it fascinating
Speaker 5: to think that chaos magic itself seems to be quite appropriating,
Speaker 5: you know what I mean. Like it's basically having the
Speaker 5: ability to take from all these places, put it together
Speaker 5: and then be all like, I don't like structure, and
Speaker 5: I don't like any of these things, and yet I'm
Speaker 5: gonna take all these structoral practices and put it in
Speaker 5: a frickin boiling pod and call it magic. And I'm
Speaker 5: not hating, but I'm just saying, it's a fascinating thing.
Speaker 4: With our culture this day.
Speaker 8: It's a really good example of what he called He
Speaker 8: coined the term hyper syndrome, which is sigil that moves
Speaker 8: through time.
Speaker 7: So a story, a.
Speaker 8: Play, a movie, you know, any kind of visual art like,
Speaker 8: it's a sigil that is is continually moving forward and
Speaker 8: changing things as it moves through time. And with The
Speaker 8: Invisible specifically, he really tied that storyline to himself and
Speaker 8: works that he was trying to do, and as the
Speaker 8: one character in specific in particular within The Invisibles start,
Speaker 8: he started writing the character having health problems, and he
Speaker 8: developed all those health problems.
Speaker 5: Yes, that's why he so Graham Morrison dressed up with
Speaker 5: all leather bald Head designed his character to be like
Speaker 5: that and all of a sudden, He's like, I want
Speaker 5: my character to fall in love with a bunch of
Speaker 5: hot redheads.
Speaker 4: And so in his life came a bunch of hot redheads.
Speaker 5: And I think it's really fascinating to see the dangers
Speaker 5: of these things because he started not ever having to
Speaker 5: have a real relationship because he didn't understand the underpinnings
Speaker 5: of how magic works. It's like, you can, unless you're descriptive,
Speaker 5: You're just gonna get a bunch of hot red heads
Speaker 5: who are going to run all over your heart and
Speaker 5: then fall away eventually. And then, Yeah, he hurt himself
Speaker 5: in the comic, and then he hurt himself there, thus
Speaker 5: saying I will never hurt myself again in the comic
Speaker 5: because I don't want to be in the hospital for
Speaker 5: the last week Mark.
Speaker 10: I was going to say, Philip K.
Speaker 7: Dick.
Speaker 10: He also wrote himself into his work and into balance.
Speaker 10: That's in exactly how he was going to die. Yeah,
Speaker 10: and so you know, when you're using these mechanisms, these
Speaker 10: vehicles of the creative force, you really have to be
Speaker 10: aware of the intensity and the power that they possess.
Speaker 8: Yeah, this magician named our culture Aiden Walker, who in
Speaker 8: one of his books, and they cannot remember that changing
Speaker 8: fate or tempting fate, something about fate.
Speaker 7: Weaving fate is the name of the book.
Speaker 8: And he presents a hypersential idea with journal where he
Speaker 8: incorporates some folk matchic ideas, and there's like you get
Speaker 8: your books that you're going to write in and you
Speaker 8: go to the Crossroads at midnight and some of the
Speaker 8: Devil and.
Speaker 7: It's the whole thing.
Speaker 8: But then you treat that book like your diary basically,
Speaker 8: and every day you come home and you write about
Speaker 8: your day, but you write about your day as if
Speaker 8: you were living the life that you actually won. So
Speaker 8: like if I really wanted to be a flight attendant
Speaker 8: and come home from my retail management job and be like, man,
Speaker 8: today was really rough at the airline, but this worked
Speaker 8: out well and I got to meet all these great
Speaker 8: people on the flight. And this flight was delayed, but
Speaker 8: we ended up getting to go to this other destination.
Speaker 8: And so you're, basically he calls it telling true lies.
Speaker 8: You're you're writing the life you want as if it
Speaker 8: was already happening, which is I think where one thing
Speaker 8: about that differentiates chaos magic is there is you know
Speaker 8: there is the fuck around, but there is definitely the
Speaker 8: find out and we tend to learn on lessons that way.
Speaker 8: So we look at the hypercentials of Grant Morrison and
Speaker 8: Philip K. Dick and the effects that those hyperstentials had
Speaker 8: on their health and well being, and then we look
Speaker 8: at Aiden Walker's Walker's hypercentual, which is, I've learned lessons
Speaker 8: from what they went through, and so we're not going
Speaker 8: to do it that way. We're going to do it
Speaker 8: in a way that benefits us and doesn't injo ourselves
Speaker 8: or ruin our life lives.
Speaker 6: Uh, Thumper, was there a Is there anything that you
Speaker 6: would like to add about your mom?
Speaker 9: Anybody?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 8: I I've actually had a blast night and I feel like.
Speaker 7: That.
Speaker 8: I don't know if I have anything else I want
Speaker 8: to add.
Speaker 7: I will I say.
Speaker 8: The only thing that I would say about the book
Speaker 8: itself is that, to quote Phil hein the cast edition,
Speaker 8: Phil high magic should be fun and so if and
Speaker 8: when people get a hold of the chaos Apple approach
Speaker 8: it as a tool to have fun with, you know,
Speaker 8: like like the spells in the book, the experiments in
Speaker 8: the book. I would like people to take an enjoyment
Speaker 8: of magical practice out of it, So I hope that's
Speaker 8: what people get out of it.
Speaker 3: I love it. I had a lot of fun for real. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and I guess, I guess we'll wrap it up. I
Speaker 3: honestly can't think of anything else bredon. Please let everybody
Speaker 3: know where they can fund your stuff.
Speaker 5: Ohy, great, thank you, Thank you Thumper. Great to meet
Speaker 5: you everyone, Golden Chaos Apple, make sure it doesn't create chaos.
Speaker 5: Figure it out. Read the book. He's probably got it
Speaker 5: in there. And how are you gonna walk through the
Speaker 5: chaos with a light step and a smile on your face?
Speaker 5: And always Nick, thank you for having me on. I
Speaker 5: love these conversations. This is how we meet new people,
Speaker 5: and we are trying to find our way through this
Speaker 5: ocean of chaos. Head on over to megas in the
Speaker 5: media because you should already be subscribed.
Speaker 4: That's all I got.
Speaker 5: Just go over to Instagram, go over to x make
Speaker 5: sure you follow every one of these people on this panel.
Speaker 5: We're trying to find myth, meaning and magic in this strange,
Speaker 5: chaotic world. Again, thank you Thumper, and I love everybody
Speaker 5: on this panel.
Speaker 4: Thank you guys.
Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Thank you for doing the man, appreciate it anytime.
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, please let everybody know what's up with you.
Speaker 3: What's up with all of your all the stuff that
Speaker 3: you would do that you do well, your endeavors. You
Speaker 3: muted who's that jin Oh?
Speaker 9: Sorry, boss, I was I didn't hear who you said.
Speaker 9: I thought it was Judith. I was like, in my mind,
Speaker 9: I was like, okay, I apologize. That's so my bad.
Speaker 9: So thank you, Brandon. That was a really awesome both
Speaker 9: intro and outro little bars you dropped. So thank you.
Speaker 9: You're making me kind of look like a side as
Speaker 9: like the side piece to the show.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 9: I was never want to ask me to do the
Speaker 9: intro again anyway. Brand and are actually friends. Just like,
Speaker 9: just keep that in mind everybody listening. We really are friends.
Speaker 9: So thank you so much, Thumper. It was honestly a
Speaker 9: huge like, it was like really cool to do this.
Speaker 9: I re released. Unfortunately last year almost at this time
Speaker 9: last year, one of the boys who I did the
Speaker 9: five part the first series on Tracy Twyman, not on
Speaker 9: her biography but on the metaphysics of her work. We
Speaker 9: did a five part series. Unfortunately, one of the boys
Speaker 9: passed away around this time last year, so I re
Speaker 9: released his episode, gave it some new art, new Keno,
Speaker 9: new hyper sigil, and I just dropped it on IG
Speaker 9: and X so people. I encourage people to check it out.
Speaker 9: It's my third episode I ever recorded on my show
Speaker 9: and I love Zach, so shout out Zach RP my brother,
Speaker 9: and people can check me out on Twitter at Wukanrieborn
Speaker 9: w uk oh and g Reborn or on at Threshold Saints,
Speaker 9: which is both for IG and Twitter and of course substack.
Speaker 9: And you can check out all of our Gray Lodge
Speaker 9: work at the True Gray Lodge dot com t r
Speaker 9: ve gray Lodge dot com because it's plus ultra all
Speaker 9: the way up. And yeah, thank you guys so much.
Speaker 9: I appreciate it, Brandon, of course, Robbie, Judith and mister
Speaker 9: ninety three Nick and of course Thumper awesome show rock
Speaker 9: on guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a blessed and thank you very much
Speaker 3: for making it.
Speaker 2: Jen, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3: And Robbie Marx what is all. Please let everybody know
Speaker 3: where they can find your great stuff.
Speaker 10: It was great hanging out with everybody of the old
Speaker 10: faces and the new faces. Good to meet you.
Speaker 7: Thumper.
Speaker 10: As far as my work, I'm currently working on illustrations
Speaker 10: from my Memrod book, which I got about eight or
Speaker 10: nine of them complete. And then if you want to
Speaker 10: check out my various works, you can go to my
Speaker 10: link tree which is link tree r M r X
Speaker 10: and you can find my metamind cast there which I
Speaker 10: just did an episode on learning to Lucid Dream. I
Speaker 10: just released an episode on the creation of the human
Speaker 10: in the demon Haunted World, and then the one this
Speaker 10: week was the bloodline of the first Divine Couple leading
Speaker 10: into the Secrets of Enoch. So go over there and
Speaker 10: check out my link tree and all the things that
Speaker 10: I have to offer. And again, Nick, I appreciate it
Speaker 10: as always.
Speaker 7: Thanks.
Speaker 3: I always appreciate you here, Robbie, thank you very much.
Speaker 3: And last but not least, Judith please let him aright.
Speaker 11: Know, thank you for having me. Brandon. You're gonna have
Speaker 11: to teach me how to do an intro like you do.
Speaker 4: It is awesome.
Speaker 11: It's been a pleasure again, Jen every time.
Speaker 7: Robbie.
Speaker 11: This is the second time I've been with you, so
Speaker 11: it's a pleasure. Thumper, thank you so much. I am
Speaker 11: actually going to get your book because from what Nick
Speaker 11: has said so far. I like your format the way
Speaker 11: you present it, and I don't think you realize you
Speaker 11: also add a little element because I got to read
Speaker 11: the little intro a little bit of discernment in there,
Speaker 11: uh to warm to advise people that use that. So
Speaker 11: I'm looking forward to that and anyone else. You could
Speaker 11: find me on YouTube and on x as the Loon
Speaker 11: and I do more self awareness, more mindfulness and working
Speaker 11: on yourself before you start taking work like this.
Speaker 9: Thank you, Thank you very much, Judith. I really appreciate
Speaker 9: you making it here.
Speaker 6: And h thump please if you want to let everybody
Speaker 6: know what's up, let them know where you can find
Speaker 6: anything usage want to promote.
Speaker 3: And the mook.
Speaker 8: Okay, well, first of all, thank you guys so much
Speaker 8: for having me I had last. I tend not to
Speaker 8: know how periods work, so I will just steamroll through
Speaker 8: a conversation. That's great.
Speaker 7: I really enjoyed it here.
Speaker 8: You can find me at someforge dot com or pretty
Speaker 8: much anywhere at fivefold law, what work fivefold Law, and
Speaker 8: I am currently working on the first draft of my
Speaker 8: next book, which will be sort of a spiritual sequel
Speaker 8: to The casts Apple. While getting more into world mythology
Speaker 8: and pop culture. One thing I did forget to say
Speaker 8: about the casts Apple, just the people know what they're
Speaker 8: getting into. Some of the pages are intentionally upside down.
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, well I've caught that. My only one star
Speaker 8: review on Amazon came from somebody who got thought he
Speaker 8: got a misprint.
Speaker 7: So I want people know that that was done.
Speaker 8: But yeah, that's uh that five full law everywhere thumperforge
Speaker 8: dot com and uh, I will wonder about here anytime.
Speaker 9: You want me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely had him last. And I noticed that too,
Speaker 3: with the upside down with like I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 3: For me, I just knew that was tom purpose.
Speaker 6: I just didn't yeah, especially because it was also it's
Speaker 6: also like I think it's the Discordian parts.
Speaker 8: Right, Yeah, yeah, that was Discordian dance breaks and just
Speaker 8: a little stop and reorient and think about things in
Speaker 8: a different way. And it was actually somebody on the
Speaker 8: design team at the publisher came up with the idea
Speaker 8: and I wasn't entirely sold on it. So I went
Speaker 8: to my most like like grumpy, curmudgeonly friend and I said, Hey,
Speaker 8: if some of the pages in the book were upside down,
Speaker 8: what would you think, And he said, I think that
Speaker 8: would mean that I should stop and reorient and change
Speaker 8: the way I'm looking at it. I was like, we's old.
Speaker 8: So yeah, everybody, for the most part, everybody seems to
Speaker 8: get it. But I always sort of offer that disclis,
Speaker 8: so people aren't you.
Speaker 6: And I said before, the book to me reads differently.
Speaker 6: It's not going to be a to me. It's in
Speaker 6: your everyday magic book, you know. I think it's a
Speaker 6: little bit more personal.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I liked it so far from what
Speaker 3: I read. I highly suggest that if you're into chaos magic.
Speaker 6: I just I feel like if I tell you to
Speaker 6: check this book out and snack it and be like
Speaker 6: every other book you read. So, uh, check it out
Speaker 6: if you're into that stuff and thump very amazing.
Speaker 9: Again.
Speaker 3: I was very happy for being on. If you coming on,
Speaker 3: we'll definitely get you on the future if you have one.
Speaker 1: We had.
Speaker 3: I had a blast, so I would love to get
Speaker 3: you back on again.
Speaker 6: And uh, thank you everybody that showed up, and thank
Speaker 6: you everybody in the chat. There's a lot of people
Speaker 6: in chat, and that's what's up, and that's where we
Speaker 6: do it live and until the next one.
Speaker 3: Everybody be well late yeah,