WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.240 --> 00:00:09.720 Are you dog doll? Line? Four? There gos ate up 2 00:00:10.039 --> 00:00:22.440 damn doll? Are you dolly doll? 3 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:23.000 Wine? 4 00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:40.119 Four? There gos ate up damn dolls? 5 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:47.320 She are you sing? Laugh like at home Land? He's 6 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:54.240 simper the maps forty. 7 00:00:55.880 --> 00:00:56.920 Spark She. 8 00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:10.480 Like, I don't laugh, it's don't lass and stowhee fynt? 9 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:15.400 How are you sure? 10 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:15.920 Are you. 11 00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:25.879 Nor Kington? Miss lawns fine like Macy stustom? Are lett 12 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:30.319 it be? Come humble then you clips? Are you? 13 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:30.640 Don't? 14 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:32.079 Don't? 15 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:33.239 Are you. 16 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:42.159 Fine? Like macy Stuto? Let it be color on the clips? 17 00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:54.239 Are you shto wherehead? Are you slight? Are you wait 18 00:01:54.519 --> 00:01:56.040 and shitt? So sweet? 19 00:01:56.840 --> 00:01:57.159 Are you? 20 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:04.760 Are you wor word? Will it become the. 21 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:12.080 Attention pastures? Like eighty eight to the Optic Nerve is 22 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:16.680 now boarding Gate seventeen scheduled to depart at time thirty AF. 23 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:24.360 Welcome everyone to tonight. 24 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:29.159 On the Occult Rejects, we're biting into a very specific 25 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:33.319 kind of forbidden fruit, the kind that doesn't promise purity 26 00:02:33.479 --> 00:02:38.000 or certainty at all, or even maybe uncertainty. It promises 27 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:43.479 paradigm whiplash. Our guest on the Occult Rejects is Thumper Forge, 28 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:48.800 also known as Horkos Gardinerian high priest, a voice in 29 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:52.840 modern pagan media and someone who moves comfortably between traditional 30 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:58.240 witchcraft structures and the grinning, reality bending current of chaos, 31 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:03.000 magic and discordian Is. His book, The Chaos, Apple, Magic 32 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:06.400 and Discordianism for the postmodern witch is a guide to 33 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:10.919 weaponizing belief as a tool, bending it, swapping it, breaking it, 34 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:15.080 and rebuilding it while dancing with airis and laughing at 35 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:17.800 the parts of the universe that take themselves. 36 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:18.919 A little bit too seriously. 37 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:25.800 So, if you've ever wondered whether magic is about faith, focus, story, psychology, 38 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:30.479 or a cosmic prank that still somehow works, this episode 39 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:32.639 tonight is here for you. 40 00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:36.560 Boom beautiful. 41 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:40.280 So on this fine occult Rejects time, we should probably 42 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:44.120 introduce the panel of brilliant rejects. 43 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:46.800 As you can tell in the far corner. 44 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:50.759 We have the Cardinal electric Head himself, the King of Kings, 45 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.400 the Great Nicholas. I'm using his voice and I'm throwing 46 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:56.560 it over to him. Introduce yourself, Nick. 47 00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:59.439 What is what's going on? Thank you so much? That 48 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:04.360 was amazing. Oh that was great. Yeah. If people wondering, 49 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:08.080 uh yeah, my broadcasters. 50 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:09.960 Are working and it's just a complete mess. So I'm 51 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:13.759 using the laptop and ye whatever. So thank you very 52 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:15.840 much for doing the introduction. I never could have done 53 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:18.360 it as well as you or even sounded the audio quality. 54 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:20.800 Wouldn't have sounded as well either, So yeah. 55 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:21.920 I think I think I'm gonna have to start using 56 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:26.800 you now one actually, So thank you, because I honestly 57 00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:28.800 I hate doing intros, I really do, so. 58 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:32.759 You got the job. No thanks, but yeah, I really 59 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:36.279 appreciate it. Brandon Thumper. I'm really excited to have you on. 60 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:38.279 Like I was saying before, you know, I want to 61 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:41.160 tell people too his book. Yeah, I read I don't know, 62 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:44.759 probably maybe the first forty pages just keeping a real 63 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:49.160 but it reads completely different than most, Like it really 64 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:50.720 was something that I was like, oh, I feel like 65 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:53.160 I'm being told a storytelling, you know what I'm saying, 66 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:54.720 or it's like, oh, it's like like one of my boys, 67 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:57.040 like having a funny conversation with me, you know, like 68 00:04:57.079 --> 00:04:57.879 we're hanging out, you know. 69 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:01.480 So it's a really good read, and I'm. 70 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:03.199 Promoting it because it's just written a little bit differently 71 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:06.040 and I liked it, so, uh, yeah, I'm really excited 72 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:08.839 to have you on and and there is a lot 73 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:12.800 of information actually in there. That is one thing I'll say. 74 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:15.160 You're not going to get some chaos magic book that 75 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:17.639 is like you know, yeah, it was all right, not 76 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:19.279 too bad. There's a ton of information in the ship 77 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:22.439 to so definitely check it out. And Thumper, thank you 78 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:25.199 so much for coming on. Man again, I was really excited. 79 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:25.439 To have you on. 80 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:28.600 And uh yeah, uh, I guess I'll pass it on 81 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:31.120 to uh Judith, let's go, No Jen, Jen, my bad, 82 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:31.560 my bed. 83 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:33.959 We'll get Jim forget about it, Okay. 84 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:34.680 No problem. 85 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:37.360 I'm I'm cool if Judith finding a day, but I'll 86 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:37.800 take it. 87 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:40.040 No, then I'll forget you at the top and then 88 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:40.839 I'll suck it all up. 89 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:45.160 Well, what's up boss? Thank you so much, mister ninety three, 90 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:48.639 and of course brother Brandon for that amazing uh intro 91 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:51.879 for the whole show. I'm Jin the Ninja. I host 92 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:54.240 a show called Threshold Saints and we'll try out my 93 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:58.319 new tagline which is chaos, love and hypersition in the 94 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:01.199 a of Flux. So if you interested in my show 95 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:04.560 Threshold Saints, you can check it out on ig Spotify, 96 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:07.879 and of course my substack, which is Threshold Saints subsack 97 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:11.560 dot com, as well as at Threshold Saints on ig 98 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:13.800 and x Twitter, or you can follow me on my 99 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:17.959 personal account at Wukong Reborn which is wu Kong Reborn. 100 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:21.240 And I have a lot of episodes coming out and 101 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:25.600 a very very very special episode with David him Smith 102 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:29.839 coming up and it's going to be pretty epic, so 103 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:33.839 look out for that. And uh yeah, I'm really excited. 104 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:36.920 I love Obviously my background is more chaos magic, so 105 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:39.399 this is kind of the kind of show that I 106 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:41.879 would love to do. And so I appreciate everybody on 107 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:44.759 the panel, And thank you so much Thumper for and 108 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:45.600 Nick for having you. 109 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:48.319 Nice. No, thank you, thank you sir. 110 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:51.399 Actually I think I got that guy coming on soon myself, 111 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:54.360 Mike Baker wanted to actually try to come on with them, 112 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:56.920 so we're going to schedule a date. So nice, nice, 113 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:59.360 look forward to that coming out. 114 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:02.199 Robbie, what is going on? 115 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:07.959 Yes, doing great. Been working on illustrations and just a 116 00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:12.560 lot of pushing inc the last few weeks. I'm Robbie 117 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:16.279 Marx or R Marx artist illustrator and if anybody wants 118 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:17.920 to check out any of my other stuff, I have 119 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:22.279 my metamind Cast podcast as well as all my miscellaneous 120 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:25.040 art on my social media et cetera, et cetera. But 121 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:27.079 you can check out my link tree which is link 122 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:29.759 tree r M A r X and that'll pull up 123 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:32.240 everything for you. And yeah, thanks for having me, and 124 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:33.160 I'm excited about this. 125 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:36.480 Yeah, thank you, Robbie. 126 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:40.120 Unlast, but not least the Loon or Self Judith, what 127 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:40.560 is up? 128 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:41.759 Hi? 129 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:42.839 Thank you for having me. 130 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:47.240 I am so excited for this discussion. Unfortunately I haven't 131 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:49.439 read the book yet, but I am motivated to read 132 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:53.800 the book. You could catch me on YouTube and on 133 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:58.480 x as the Loon. I do more of self inner development, 134 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:01.759 and I have an episodisode coming with one on one 135 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:05.199 with doctor Rachel you remember her nick, and we're just 136 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:08.879 going to have two occult females having a chat. And 137 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:11.120 I have a couple of more things coming up. So 138 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:13.160 check me out on Twitter and on it. 139 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:14.839 Nice get it? 140 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:15.560 You get it? 141 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:20.920 That is what's nice? Listen all right? So Thumper, Well, unfortunately, 142 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:22.720 it's like the same question I asked everybody who comes 143 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:25.560 on the show that's in to the occult, what. 144 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:26.160 Got you into this? 145 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:27.879 Like how did you find yourself one day saying, Oh, 146 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:29.000 this is what I'm going to get into, and I'm 147 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:31.000 going to make this all you a life journey. 148 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:34.120 You know, when I was about twelve years old, I 149 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:39.039 was flipping through a newspaper in like my parents' sitting room, 150 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:42.879 and I found there was an article about a coven 151 00:08:42.919 --> 00:08:46.279 of witches going to see the Witches of Eastwick in 152 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:48.639 the theater, and it was sort of a fluffy kind 153 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:52.399 of human interest piece, and I think in retrospect it 154 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:56.440 may have been Lord Cabot in her coven, but I 155 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:59.279 didn't realize that there were actual witches in the world. 156 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:01.559 And so twelve year old me looked up and looked 157 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:03.279 at my parents and said, I'm going to be a witch. 158 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:07.320 And my good Episcopalian parents were like, you know, maybe 159 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:10.399 we table this, we don't focus on for now. But 160 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:13.720 that got the idea stuck in my head. And I 161 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:17.519 had always been interested in mythology and different religion and 162 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:21.320 just so in my late teens and early twenties, I 163 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:25.840 just started reading a bunch of books on witchcraft and paganism. 164 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:29.440 And in my late twenties, I was very skeptical about 165 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:30.879 a lot of the things I was reading, especially when 166 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:33.320 it came to Wicca, so I went and found a 167 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:37.279 Gardenerian Tuvin because I was like, where did this come from? 168 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:38.960 Like you guys have to like I wanted to know, 169 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:42.600 like the reality behind it, and I ended up sticking 170 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:46.559 with that and then eventually stumbled into Discordianism kind of 171 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:49.799 by accident. It was very similar in that Airis had 172 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:52.440 always been my favorite goddess when I would read about mythology, 173 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:54.159 and then to learn that there was a whole religion 174 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:58.200 devoted to her really really just struck a chord with me. 175 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:03.000 And not long after that, I pratt fell into chaos magic, 176 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:06.000 and uh so I've been kind of doing all of 177 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:07.039 the above ever since. 178 00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:14.200 Nice, what what is it now as we get into 179 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:14.759 this book? 180 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:17.120 What was it with this book. 181 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:21.279 For I guess chaos magic and Discordanism that you thought 182 00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:23.320 was different or that they needed this book? 183 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:23.399 Like? 184 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:25.279 What's different about this book than what's out there already? 185 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:26.759 What did you think you were handing to the people. 186 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:28.360 That's a little different if it was. 187 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:30.720 What I really wanted to focus on was the idea 188 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:35.759 of chaos witchcraft. Especially in online spaces. There's been sort 189 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:40.080 of a growing identity of the chaos witch a lot 190 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:44.360 of people identifying as chast witches and nobody really knowing 191 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:48.120 what that meant, you know, people kind of having a 192 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:51.960 very broad general idea of chaos magic, people having a 193 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:55.720 very broad general idea of witchcraft and combining the two 194 00:10:55.879 --> 00:11:00.759 as an identity, but not really knowing what that meant 195 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:03.279 or having having any direction as to what they should 196 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:05.759 do with that. So that's what I was really trying 197 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:08.039 to write for. Is you want to be a cast, 198 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:10.679 which great, here is here are resources for you, here's 199 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:12.200 information about that specifically. 200 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:14.919 Nice. 201 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:18.600 Nice, heyboy, I have any questions before I keep going? 202 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:23.519 Yeah right, uh, I know you. 203 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:27.320 I mean I think you mentioned also Uhian witchcraft and 204 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:28.080 all that stuff too. 205 00:11:29.360 --> 00:11:30.720 Yeah, would you would you want to give like. 206 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:32.559 A little bit maybe a little bit of an idea 207 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:35.080 for people what that is, because I'll be telling us 208 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:36.639 I've never really had any ring on the show for 209 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:38.600 that either, So like some people might be interested just 210 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:39.919 getting a little bit of an idea of like what 211 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:41.480 actually does that entail. 212 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:45.759 You know, Gardnerian Gardenerian witchcraft. The way the best way 213 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:50.279 to think about it is it was what came like 214 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:56.279 a generation before Wicka. The very condensed history is there 215 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:00.440 was this British guy named Gerrel Gardner who had been 216 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:03.159 living overseas for number of years, retired, moved back to 217 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:07.879 England and got involved with a Rosicrucian order in the 218 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:11.399 New Forest area of England. And in that group he 219 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:13.840 met or in that organization he met kind of an 220 00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:19.399 inner circle of people who called themselves witches and really 221 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:21.600 all they wanted to do was like practice witchcraft and 222 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.759 punch nachi, not scenes, and he fell in with them, 223 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:31.200 and that was in nineteen thirty nine. In nineteen fifty one, 224 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:33.240 I think it was was when the anti witchcraft laws 225 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:36.360 in England were repealed, And by nineteen fifty four he 226 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:40.639 had published a book called Witchcraft Today, which basically said 227 00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:42.840 I am a witch and I am part of the coven, 228 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:47.600 and here's here's a little bit about us. It's an 229 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:51.240 initiatory practice, so you have to go through an initiation 230 00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:53.240 to be a part of it. It is oath bound, 231 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:55.840 meaning to take osad initiation, not to reveal the things 232 00:12:55.879 --> 00:13:02.240 that you've been experiencing. But modern wick or the idea 233 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:05.720 of Wicca kind of grew out of that. Some people 234 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:08.039 who came along shortly after he passed away in nineteen 235 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:11.759 sixty four had kind of found the word wicca and 236 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:15.320 were identifying themselves as wicked versus just calling themselves witches, 237 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:21.360 and that word stuck. But the Gardnerian tradition is just 238 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:24.000 sort of the precursor to what we now know is wicked. 239 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:26.799 Thank you. 240 00:13:27.559 --> 00:13:28.320 Side note. 241 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:32.759 Gerald Gardner was initiated into the OTO by Alistair Crowley. 242 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:36.039 He did he was given a charter by Crowley in 243 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:39.960 that at some point in the mid to late forties 244 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:44.399 where thirteen forty seven, thank you, thank you. Yeah, he 245 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:47.279 didn't ever really do anything with the charter, and there 246 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:50.080 is floating around out there. There is like Alistair Crawley's 247 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:52.960 handwritten charter that Cardner kind of got from him on 248 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:57.639 Crowley's deathbed. So he did have proof that he was 249 00:13:57.639 --> 00:14:00.879 a member or that he had authority within the OTO, 250 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:04.960 although he didn't he didn't ever really pursue that. And 251 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:09.240 while he was in the early uh in his kind 252 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:13.320 of the early days of his practice, he incorporated a 253 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.600 lot of Crawley into his witchcraft. And then some of 254 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:19.000 the witches who came along to practice with him took 255 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:21.279 all the they called it Crowley Andity, and they pulled 256 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:23.159 it all out and replaced it with their own original right, 257 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:27.080 so the Crowley didn't get passed down along with everything else. 258 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:31.240 I think, I think I had so many I had 259 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:35.000 somebody on the show recently where I think we're talking 260 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.480 about the Charge of the Goddess and how much that 261 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:41.639 seemed to like it was even very heavily taken from 262 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:42.759 Alison Crowley. 263 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:43.759 I think in the Book of the Law. 264 00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:46.960 Yeah, a couple of sources it came from. 265 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:48.639 There was the Book of the Little influenced it. 266 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:53.639 There was also a passage in Charles Scott free Leland's 267 00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:55.279 Roady a Gospel of the Witches. 268 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:56.600 Which was published in eighteen ninety nine. 269 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:00.320 But a lot of this put that film and getting 270 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.399 filtered through a woman named During Valiente, who Gardner initiated 271 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:06.360 in nineteen fifty three, and she rewrote a lot of stuff, 272 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:09.519 including the Charge of the Goddess. 273 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:16.679 Nice if you can also, because uh, I haven't, I've 274 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:18.919 only had like maybe two people on for Chaos Magic too. 275 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:22.519 Can you give me, like, you know definitions I guess 276 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:26.759 chaos magic versus discordium and witchcraft, Like where do they overlap? 277 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:28.639 And that where do they? I mean they kind of 278 00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:30.960 overlap a little bit, maybe could you maybe give that, 279 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:32.559 you know, give that definition of people. 280 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:37.080 Sure chaos magic is, you know, I would love to 281 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:38.840 say it's we get together and shoot chaos from our 282 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:41.039 hands or that, or that we are like you know, 283 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:44.720 out in the eighth or doing doing chaotic things. But 284 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:49.840 it's really just an experimental approach to magical practice with 285 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:55.279 an emphasis on getting results. Of the idea of chaos 286 00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:59.360 in modern context, people tend to see it as meaning 287 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:03.480 chaotic or meaning frenetic or kind of undisciplined or all 288 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.759 over the place. But within the framework of chaos magic, 289 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:11.080 the chaos is more of the Greek idea of chaos, 290 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:15.600 sort of like the primordial entity that existed before anything else. 291 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:22.039 So chaos is potential, and within chaos magic, the idea 292 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:24.559 is to take that potential or take potential and turn 293 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:29.919 it into not only possibility but probability, if that makes sense. 294 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:36.399 And the idea of chaos also kind of promotes the 295 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:38.159 idea that we can kind of go in any direction 296 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:41.639 we want to to accomplish our others. If you think 297 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:44.600 of you've probably seen the chaos star, the kind of 298 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:50.639 eight pointed star with the arrows. Yes, that was kind 299 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:56.039 of conceived by an author named Peter J. Carroll, who 300 00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:00.440 attached a different color of magic to each arrow, which 301 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.120 he sort of lifted from the Cabitalistic tree of life. 302 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:09.079 If you move like moving through the separophemy in Hermetic Karbala, 303 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:11.039 you started melcouth, you start at the earth, and then 304 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:13.279 you kind of work your way up through the different 305 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:16.480 spheres as part of the great work to you know, 306 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:18.680 become part of the divine or merge with the divine. 307 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:21.359 In chaos magic, we're in the center and we can 308 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:23.759 go off in any direction we want to, based on 309 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:27.000 what our interest is or what we're trying to accomplish. 310 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:29.799 So that is, in a nutshell, what chaos magic is. 311 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:35.400 Discordianism is a modern parody religion based on the worship 312 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:38.440 of the Greek goddess Eiras, who is the goddess of discord, 313 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:43.759 who is sort of a minor player in classical Greek mythology. 314 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:49.400 But the founders of Discordism in the late fifties learned 315 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:53.200 of you know, we're read something about Greek mythology and 316 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:55.839 learned there was a goddess of discord, and they thought 317 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:58.839 that was hilarious. So they decided to base a religion 318 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:02.079 around her. It was absolutely supposed to be a joke. 319 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:06.319 It was supposed to be a parody of organized religion 320 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:09.000 and just sort of a way to stewer organized religion. 321 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:12.079 But it caught on and people started taking it seriously. 322 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:17.440 So there are a lot of people out there taking 323 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:21.720 the not serious, very very seriously in practicing religion based 324 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:26.240 on that. And then witchcraft is that's one of those 325 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.160 things where you've asked, you know, ask ten people, get 326 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:30.960 a lot of answers. But in my mind, witchcraft is 327 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:36.240 just unauthorized magic. It is magical practice that is not 328 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:41.279 approved of by whatever the authorities or dominant groups happened 329 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:46.200 to be in a given culture. Chaos magic practitioners tend 330 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:48.599 to refer to themselves as magicians because they're still kind 331 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:52.319 of working within a societal structure, a chaos which, on 332 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:56.000 the other hand, is working sort of outside of the 333 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:59.839 dominant paradigm and kind of doing their own thing, not 334 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.839 only for their own benefit, but to kind of do 335 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:07.599 what they can to influence the world around. Hopefully any 336 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:10.519 of that made sense, I can try again. 337 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:15.519 It didn't well, And you said, you know, Airis, I mean, 338 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.079 she is a rather minor character in regard to the 339 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:21.960 whole story of discord and sowing that chaos and rolling 340 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:26.400 that golden apple in for the goddesses to determine, you know, 341 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:29.440 which one is the most beautiful. But at the same time, 342 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:34.119 she's also the spark or the catalyst that started the 343 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:36.039 Trojan War exactly. 344 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:40.160 And the thing with Aris, and I mentioned this in 345 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:42.839 the cast Apple, the thing with her mate, with that 346 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:47.599 kind of foundational myths of the Wedding of Thetis, is 347 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:50.279 that at any time someone could have made a different 348 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.000 decision and prevented the Trujan war. 349 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:53.640 Aris. 350 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:57.480 You know, Aris gave them opportunities, and all that had 351 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:01.200 to do was was make a different decision. In my mind, 352 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:03.880 if you're at a wedding banquet and a golden apple 353 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:06.119 marked for the fairest rolls into the room, you give 354 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:09.160 it to the bride. It's her special day, right, But 355 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:10.440 the goddesses didn't do that. 356 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:12.279 You know. 357 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:14.279 The reason they were having a wedding was because Zeus 358 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:16.359 had arranged a marriage because there was a prophecy that 359 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:19.599 any son of Thetus would overthrow him, so he was 360 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:23.839 trying to prevent that from happening. You know, the goddesses 361 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:27.079 all tried to bribe the judge. Hermes, you know, could 362 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:29.680 have picked a different judge. It just it was one 363 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:33.039 bad decision after another, and so the fault of it 364 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:35.480 can't really lie with Eiras. All she did was thrown 365 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:38.799 into the room and everybody mad decisions that resulted in 366 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:39.480 the well and. 367 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:40.359 That's the chaos. 368 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:42.160 Yeah, that is the. 369 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:47.839 But yeah, she she's always she's painted as the villain 370 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:50.279 of the story in retrospect. She was the milind one. 371 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:52.240 Yeah. 372 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:55.759 And an interesting story about the Principal Discordia or the 373 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:57.720 Lord Omar Kayam. 374 00:20:58.160 --> 00:20:59.160 The guy who wrote it. 375 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:04.400 Carrie, interesting enough, has his own chaos, which is he 376 00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:09.400 was brought in on charges of assassinating JFK. And so 377 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:12.200 a lot of people thought that, you know, so he 378 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:16.359 has this whole thing where he was maybe brainwashed into 379 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:20.920 thinking or like a man Cherian style candidate that like, 380 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:24.119 because you know, Oswald was kind of thrown to the wolves. 381 00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:28.160 But at the same time, Carry Thornley wrote a book 382 00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:33.119 before the Principal Discordia that talked about this defector who 383 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:36.119 was upset with the United States, and that was actually 384 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:37.119 Oswald himself. 385 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:40.519 So they actually knew each other, Oswald and Carry they. 386 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:45.119 Were believes they were roommates at one point that Discordia. 387 00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:48.359 There was Greg Hill, who renamed himself not Eclipse Younger, 388 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:52.440 and Carry Thornley, who renamed himself Lord O Markaiam Ravenhurst. 389 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:57.160 And Greg Hill was like an IBM programmer and was 390 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:00.839 sort of this very chill, quiet guy. Carry Thornley was 391 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:05.559 very countercultural, and yeah, wrote a whole book about you know, 392 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:09.359 like you were saying, kind of talking about his old 393 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:14.000 his old buddy Lee Harvey Oswald. He ended up under 394 00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:17.480 a lot of scrutiny because of that. I don't know 395 00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:19.480 that he thought that decision through very well. 396 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:23.039 Well, it's interesting how he became the very chaos that 397 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:25.599 Carry Thornton is, the very chaos that he was talking about. 398 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:28.720 It's very meta and if you got this many layered 399 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.759 nature of what's going on in the conspiratorial realms of 400 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:34.559 the sixties with the jfk assassination and then all of 401 00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:38.720 a sudden, the same guy coincidentally creates the princip a Discordia, 402 00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:43.000 and this this very thing that was disrupting the sixties counterculture, 403 00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:48.000 which some think wasn't even counterculture, that actually was an 404 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.240 inorganic creation of the CIA's MK. 405 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:52.599 Ultra program right. 406 00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:55.119 And you know it's funny that you would mention that 407 00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:58.880 because in an interview one time, somebody asked carry Thornley 408 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:02.640 if he thought RAS was real, because, you know, like 409 00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:04.359 I was saying earlier, the idea of this religion was 410 00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:06.279 supposed to be a joke. It was supposed to be parady, 411 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:11.000 was supposed to be taken seriously. And so somebody asked Thornley, 412 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:14.759 you know, is RIS real? And his response was, if 413 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:16.759 I knew this was all going to come true, I 414 00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.920 would have picked Venus very much. They did not mean 415 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:23.160 to create something, but by not intending to do so, 416 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:26.440 they ended up, you know, creating this religion that that 417 00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:28.359 ended up being very real for a lot of people. 418 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.400 I actually have a couple of questions about Discordianism, a thumber. 419 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.759 Who would you say is I know you addressed some 420 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:41.119 of them, but who would you say are important Discordians 421 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:43.480 for people to be aware of? Because I know it's 422 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:46.799 a kind of a controversial label, one that people have 423 00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:52.480 cast dispersions against me sometimes simply because of some of 424 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.920 my work on Tracy Twyman and you know, association with 425 00:23:56.039 --> 00:23:58.599 some leftown path people. So I just want to hear like, 426 00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:02.440 who do you think is interesting Discordians that people should 427 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:06.680 know about? And do you have any connections with a 428 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:08.000 greater network? 429 00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:12.160 So the Discordians I think people should probably know about 430 00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:14.640 are as we were talking before we went on Robert 431 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:20.160 Anton Wilson, who outside of the Principia Discordia, his works 432 00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:24.720 were very influential to Discordianism and he built on some 433 00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:33.319 ideas that became kind of core to Discordianism. The Discordians 434 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:35.799 that people don't know are Discordians. And this is going 435 00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:38.680 to be a very gen X kind of thing. But 436 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:40.519 have you ever heard of a band called the KLF 437 00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:46.240 or They were sometimes known as the Nine Wards. They 438 00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:48.680 had hits in the nineties, Three Am Eternal, They had 439 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:50.839 one song where Tandy Wnette. They were kind of a 440 00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:52.920 dance band, but Tandy Winnette was the lead singer on 441 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:55.319 one of their songs. If you've ever gone to a 442 00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:57.559 basketball game and you hear the doctor Who. 443 00:24:57.559 --> 00:24:59.599 Song, the Doctor Who? 444 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.279 That was the KLF as the Time Awards. But they 445 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:05.759 were a Discordian band and they worked a lot of 446 00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:09.880 Discordian concepts into their lyrics and they were huge in Britain. 447 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:12.640 They were they had a few hits in the US, 448 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:17.599 but they were huge overseas, and their fame kind of 449 00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:20.440 came to an end because one day they announced that 450 00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:25.640 they were going to burn a million pounds basically, you know, 451 00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:28.559 a million pounds being just British currency. They were going 452 00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:31.039 to burn a million dollars worth of it. And so 453 00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:32.759 they went out to like a boat house and they 454 00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:37.039 piled up stacks of British pound notes into a million 455 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:38.960 and set it on fire, and there were news crews 456 00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:41.920 there and they burned a million pounds and everybody sort 457 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:44.519 of stood there awkwardly, and then the news crewise just 458 00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:49.359 turned off their cameras and left, and it was very 459 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:51.400 I think it was very meaningful for them, or they 460 00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:54.839 felt like they were doing something very meaningful, and afterwards 461 00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:57.759 they were like, crap, we just destroyed a bunch of money. 462 00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:00.400 It kind of realized that there wasn't really point to 463 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:04.400 it after all. Those are the names that I think 464 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:10.480 in terms of like Discordianism quietly influencing pop culture, those 465 00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:13.480 are the names I think people should know. There are 466 00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:16.960 other authors out there like Adam Golightly or go Rightly 467 00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:22.519 and Bretton Clutterbuck who have done a lot of research 468 00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:25.319 into the history of Discordianism and who are who are 469 00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:28.160 publishing books that have a lot of information that just 470 00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:29.400 people just don't normally. 471 00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:29.640 Have access to. 472 00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:33.279 So anyone who's interested in Discordianism should definitely look up 473 00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:37.880 those authors. And then there is a website called Principia 474 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.880 Discordia dot com which has the Principia Online free to 475 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:45.799 read with forums where a lot of just random discordian 476 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:48.720 concepts get tossed around to the forums as well. 477 00:26:50.839 --> 00:26:53.400 Thank you so much, appreciate that. That was a great answer. 478 00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:55.839 Thank you. 479 00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:57.960 You want to ask this some of big five dollars 480 00:26:57.960 --> 00:26:58.160 for it. 481 00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:04.559 So do you know the relationship between Discoridianism and intuitionism mathematics? 482 00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:06.920 I do not, actually. 483 00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:11.680 Interesting, I don't. This isn't a correct answer, obviously, but 484 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:14.680 there is a answer, and that answer would be maybe 485 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:17.519 some So when principal Discordia or and Discordanism, they have 486 00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:20.559 the law of fives right. And then there's also the 487 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.960 idea of twenty three Skidoo, which is also then put 488 00:27:24.039 --> 00:27:28.039 into the Book of Lies a whole chapter called twenty 489 00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:32.400 three Skidoo, which is basically, get out, get out, get 490 00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:34.240 out as fast as possible, you know what I mean, 491 00:27:35.319 --> 00:27:38.200 and so you can and so, and throughout the Illuminatus 492 00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:42.799 trilogy there was the two equals two plus three equals five. 493 00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:48.319 There's the two to the two equals three degrees as 494 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:50.720 you walk up the Kabbalist try of life, which is 495 00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:53.759 a you know, the degree structure of the Hermetic order 496 00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:56.200 of the Golden Dawn. And so what they do is 497 00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:58.799 they play. And then in the in the Taoist Ian 498 00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:04.039 Yong's symbol, they actually principal Discordia took that as their symbol. 499 00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:06.759 But instead of the two circles one black, one white, 500 00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:10.440 it's one is the apple and one is the pentagon, 501 00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:15.160 which is five. Then so it's order and chaos or 502 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:18.640 discord thank you, thank you, and yeah. And so it's 503 00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:21.920 like maybe that could be related mathematically to whatever they're 504 00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:22.559 talking about. 505 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:26.240 It certainly could be, and I will say hopefully this 506 00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:32.319 ties in that a lot of like just as the 507 00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:35.799 Internet was about to become a seeing, a lot of 508 00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:41.119 computer programmers were both cast magicians and discordias. In England 509 00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:44.200 when cast magic was sort of building steam in the seventies, 510 00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:49.039 it was heavily influenced by ceremonial magic when it kind 511 00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:52.240 of got important to the States. It got heavily influenced 512 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:57.079 by Discordianism. So all these kind of early computer programmers 513 00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:01.359 were heavily influenced by this scordion and cast magic as 514 00:29:01.400 --> 00:29:02.680 they were constructing the Internet. 515 00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:10.000 Also, you have William Burrow's twenty three theory that he 516 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:15.000 has with the ship Captains and all the later got 517 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:18.680 kind of picked up within Robert Anton Wilson and the 518 00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:21.000 Illuminatus kind of trilogy. 519 00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:25.279 Yeah, within Discordianism, as was mentioned, there is the law 520 00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:30.720 of fives that everything somehow equals five, and through that 521 00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:32.920 the number twenty three became sacred because people is three 522 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:36.440 is five. But the yeah, the twenty three enigma is 523 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:40.480 is a crazy, crazy thing to dive into. Yeah, in 524 00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:43.519 terms of the number of bizarre things that have happened 525 00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:47.480 on the twenty third of a month, or that there's 526 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:49.920 actually a movie called I think it might just be 527 00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:53.440 called twenty three, but it's it's just absolutely fascinating when 528 00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:56.039 we when you go down that rabbit hole, you'll find 529 00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.799 some crazy, crazy stuff. Oh yeah, I think the re 530 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:02.279 and why the number five was picked to be sacred 531 00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:06.759 in Discordionism was again just sort of arbitrary to be funny, 532 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:09.359 and you know, just it's a number that can't really 533 00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:12.680 be evenly divided into or whatever, so they it was 534 00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:18.240 picked arbitrarily. But in Greek mythology, especially in the work 535 00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:21.319 of Hesiod, the fifth day of the month was always 536 00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:25.440 considered inauspicious because that was the day that Air escaped 537 00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:31.880 birth to her son Horcas, and so, without intending to, 538 00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:36.039 greg Hill and Cary Thornley inadvertently referenced classical Greek mythology 539 00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:39.319 when they picked that number as sacred heras well. 540 00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:41.839 And also with the five, the number, you know, you 541 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:45.160 have that pint alpha, you have the drooven foot, which 542 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:48.839 is the druide used to wear the star on their sandals. 543 00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:52.359 You have this this idea of the five to the ten, 544 00:30:52.839 --> 00:30:55.880 turning the man on his head and tapping horn. So 545 00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.119 there's a lot of symbolical elements within the five itself 546 00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:02.519 that relate to us as human beings. 547 00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:06.039 Especially in the first edition of the Principi of Discordia, 548 00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:09.599 there was a little kind of infographic of an upright 549 00:31:09.640 --> 00:31:13.000 pentagram that was labeled good, and then there was an 550 00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:16.039 inverted pentagram next to it that was labeled bad, and 551 00:31:16.839 --> 00:31:19.319 the pentagram turned in a ninety degree eagle that was 552 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:24.440 labeled aristesque. So is the idea being that within Discordianism 553 00:31:24.440 --> 00:31:27.519 there isn't really good or bad existence. 554 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:29.359 We're going in a different direction totally. 555 00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:31.839 And that's kind of with any god or goddess that 556 00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:34.559 you look at in the ancient world. There's always that, 557 00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:37.240 you know, the life giver and. 558 00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:39.400 The storm bringer as far as. 559 00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:40.440 The dichotomy of the. 560 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:43.559 Two exactly exactly. 561 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:47.400 And that was one thing about Discordianism that I think 562 00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:50.839 really appealed to me early on was that, you know, 563 00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:53.519 within colastal mythology and within all world mythology, you know, 564 00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:55.480 we do see the good and the bad of the gods. 565 00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:58.279 We see we see the creative forces, we see the 566 00:31:58.279 --> 00:32:01.440 destructive forces. And Harris was always just sort of this 567 00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:05.880 kind of quasi villainous character. So within Accordianism, she has 568 00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:10.480 given that creative side and she yeah, where she has 569 00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:15.519 lifted up and seen as as more fun loving and happy, 570 00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:17.960 go lucky versus just this kind of dour little character 571 00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:18.799 from great mythology. 572 00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:19.400 Right. 573 00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:23.680 And well, it's interesting because I came across the principal 574 00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:28.680 Discordia before the Internet really even happened, and I didn't 575 00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:31.200 know it had anything to do with Robert Anton Wilson 576 00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:34.640 until later and kind of just tie in all that 577 00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:38.799 together and it's yeah, it's just been an interesting journey 578 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:41.759 going down the whole chaos road. 579 00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:42.240 You know. 580 00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:47.680 Robert Anton Wilson really developed the idea of the word schnord, 581 00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:51.319 which in the parcipit of Discordia as just sort of 582 00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:54.799 a random, throwaway, nonsense word, but then he built a 583 00:32:54.880 --> 00:33:00.599 whole concept around it, where a is some thing put 584 00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:05.960 in tech in print media specifically that makes you uncomfor 585 00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.519 You can't people, everyone in the world is conditioned not 586 00:33:08.599 --> 00:33:12.799 to be able to see the flwords. But they were 587 00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:16.559 you put into like serious news articles and left out 588 00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:20.960 of advertisements. So if you're reading a newspaper, you wouldn't 589 00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:22.799 want you'd get uncomfortable if you tried to read what 590 00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:25.720 was actually happening in the world, and instead you would 591 00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:28.359 be drawn to the pretty pictures in the advertisements. 592 00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:28.839 Right. 593 00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:32.400 And so as characters go through their initiations and the 594 00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.480 Illuminatus trilogy, there's the whole concept of I can see 595 00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:37.119 the flords where one day they open up the bar 596 00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:40.759 and they see the word snord everywhere, and they are deconditioning. 597 00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:43.880 They are getting over those blocks that have been put 598 00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:45.839 to keep them under control, right. 599 00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:49.640 And well, and I don't know, you get into Robert 600 00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:55.200 Anton Wilson in regard to him talking about his relationship, 601 00:33:55.599 --> 00:33:58.559 his internal relationship with the ideas of the age of 602 00:33:58.680 --> 00:34:01.880 mystic Sufi's and kind of when you go down that 603 00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:05.480 Sufi road, you have this idea that nothing is either 604 00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:11.000 you know, right or wrong, that everything that it gets 605 00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:13.599 into kind of the cop the ideas of like cosmic 606 00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:15.960 justice and kind of some of these things that are 607 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:19.920 outside of the scope of what the human understanding of. 608 00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:23.719 You know, the dichotomy, dualism of right and wrong is. 609 00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:27.599 Exactly exactly that's so many, at least according to Discordanism. 610 00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:33.119 So many of those binary things are artificial constructions right there. 611 00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:35.199 They are. They are man made. 612 00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:40.119 Arbitrary concepts, and like order and disorder are man made 613 00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:44.360 concepts that are a fractional reflection of creation and destruction. 614 00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:49.840 But nothing really exists on a binary. Everything is a bimodality, 615 00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:54.079 right Like you know, like if we think of of gender, 616 00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:56.199 a lot of people will say gender as man and woman, 617 00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:58.400 but they're you know, there are things that are definitely masculine. 618 00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:00.440 There are things that are sort of masculine, things that 619 00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:02.719 are kind of feminine but not really, there are things 620 00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:03.159 that are. 621 00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:05.440 That cannot be different. 622 00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:09.119 Yeah, it's all kind of a spectrum with with high 623 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:11.880 points on it, and everything in the world really is 624 00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:14.280 a lot more like that than just a binary or 625 00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:15.360 a binary right and wrong. 626 00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:18.679 Right, everything kind of lays in a gray area. 627 00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:26.639 Yeah, Yeah, which is is I think tough for people 628 00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:30.159 to get the brain around at times. Right, a lot 629 00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:32.199 more comfortable to think in terms of right and wrong. 630 00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:37.400 But that especially with like online pulkler and social media, 631 00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:40.519 we get so caught up in the idea of right 632 00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:43.360 and wrong that if somebody says some like, if somebody 633 00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.480 puts out an idea that is different than the way 634 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:48.400 I would want to do it, instead of going, oh, 635 00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:49.559 well that's how they do it, I'm going to do 636 00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:51.960 things my way, the gut response is, well, you're telling 637 00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:53.679 me I'm wrong because you're doing differently than me. And 638 00:35:53.719 --> 00:35:55.239 if you're right, that means I have to be wrong, 639 00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:57.480 and it's like we can we can all kind of 640 00:35:57.480 --> 00:35:57.840 be right. 641 00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:01.320 There's a thousand ways to do everything exactly. 642 00:36:03.159 --> 00:36:03.440 Done one. 643 00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:10.360 Yeah, fascinating enough, Also, is that the Discordians are using 644 00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:16.119 the yin and the young symbol, which are two things 645 00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:18.519 that then, you know, in the Daoist culture you have 646 00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:21.639 or in Daoism you have Wu, which is the all nothingness, 647 00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:25.119 the primordial ooz or chaos that separates into in and 648 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:29.679 yong and from one from nothing to you know, to 649 00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:33.320 to the many. And so it's fascinating this how that 650 00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:36.519 kind of works to explode into the myriad of many 651 00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:40.840 things as then we move ourselves back up towards the 652 00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:47.000 all primordial chaos organizational skill. Uh, it's just a fascinating 653 00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:49.440 thing to think about as well when you move into 654 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:52.519 the un and the young, which isn't right or wrong obviously, 655 00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:57.840 but it has this more young you know, it's two 656 00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:02.320 full yin you know, to nothingness. And so these are 657 00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:05.599 the things when they spin, right, that's the dynamism of 658 00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:08.239 the tyching practice as they are working with the spiral 659 00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:12.079 as that when you're doing it, you're creating the all everything, 660 00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:14.079 the nuance within the world, so to speak. 661 00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:19.840 Absolutely, the primordial chaos of Daoism is actually personified within 662 00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:25.159 the percincity of discordia because in Daoism that primordial force 663 00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:29.159 is called hung men or Hung Moan, and that name 664 00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:34.360 translates to h It's like basically means either primordial miss 665 00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:41.440 vast obscurity, or big goose dummy. And in Taoist philosophy, 666 00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:45.800 Hung Meng is sort of this character who is very 667 00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:48.159 much a trickster, and he's this primordial chaos, but he 668 00:37:48.199 --> 00:37:49.719 just sort of pops up every once in a while 669 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:52.880 to shake things up. And in the Principia he is 670 00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:55.519 listed as one of the apostles of Rais and he 671 00:37:55.559 --> 00:38:00.920 sort of represents Daoism in Eastern thought and personifies the 672 00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:03.960 contributions that those philosophies bring into Discordianism. 673 00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:08.800 I have somebody asking here double entendres a form of 674 00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:09.599 chaos magic. 675 00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:12.360 They certainly could be. 676 00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:15.639 That one of the double and triples. 677 00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:20.599 Yeah, all magicians are word cells, and all magic is words. 678 00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:23.760 That is the truth. That is from all the times 679 00:38:23.800 --> 00:38:27.239 that like we have spent it doing the show, Like 680 00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:30.360 all the people I've interviewed on my show, every single 681 00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:36.079 magician left hand path, right hand path, institutional, non institutional 682 00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:39.800 in general, they do have a writing practice in a way, 683 00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:42.360 and so you must you must admit, like look at 684 00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:46.599 Austin Osman spare like maybe the you know, primordial we'll 685 00:38:46.599 --> 00:38:52.039 call him primordial Discordian. It's it's poems, it's illustrations, it's 686 00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:55.840 mimetic before mimetics was a thing. And so you must 687 00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:59.519 admit that the technology for a lot of chaos is 688 00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:01.400 the words, right, I mean, but I just want to 689 00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:04.280 say that it's It's absolutely true. The magician is the 690 00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:05.199 words well of. 691 00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:12.159 I think to find out if something is an expression 692 00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:14.920 of cast magic, the best way to find out is 693 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:18.559 to try it out. And chast magic is very much 694 00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:22.119 learned by doing so. If there is if somebody has 695 00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:26.920 an idea of using double entendres and magical practice, do it, 696 00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:30.480 see what happens. Like chast magic is all about the 697 00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:33.679 f around and find out which you know, it's so 698 00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:38.519 many occult disciplines there. You know, there's the idea of 699 00:39:38.440 --> 00:39:42.880 of you know, guidelines and warnings and and you know, uh, 700 00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:46.559 don't do X because X, you know Y and Z 701 00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:49.840 will happen and you will the pendulum will swing back 702 00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:52.519 upon you. And in cast magic, it's like, well, I'm 703 00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:54.760 going to do it and see what happens. And if 704 00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:55.920 it doesn't work the way I want it to, well 705 00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:59.679 try something else. You know, belief very much is a tool. 706 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:05.360 And if if I'm going into a magical experiment, I'm 707 00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:07.480 not going to go into it believing that if I 708 00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:09.320 do this wrong, something bad is going to happen to me. 709 00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:13.039 That's that doesn't do me any good. That's a belief 710 00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:16.559 I can set aside for a different paradigm and focus 711 00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:17.199 on I want. 712 00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:17.719 To get results. 713 00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:21.480 I'm going into this as objectively as possible to see 714 00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:22.960 what happens and what can I do to make it 715 00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:23.760 work better next time? 716 00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:28.679 If you can too, I mean, I know we uh 717 00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:32.280 touched on it, be full of on the practical I mean, 718 00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:35.719 I guess, I guess I would say, all it's kind 719 00:40:35.719 --> 00:40:39.079 of like hands on with chaos magic, he practical side. 720 00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:42.599 What would be some practical technique? What would be techniques 721 00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:43.679 behind chaos magic? 722 00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:47.519 Or I think there really are And I'd say this 723 00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:50.000 after just going off on nothing as a binary, there 724 00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:52.960 are two really good places to start within chaos magic 725 00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:56.920 and those are those are notice in paradigm. 726 00:40:56.559 --> 00:40:59.639 Shifting night I was going to ask you about. 727 00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:05.280 The paradigm is just basically what can be described as 728 00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:08.639 getting into a tan state. It's the mental state necessary 729 00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:12.360 to work magic. There are a lot of different ways 730 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:15.840 to do it. There there's excitatory methods where you you know, 731 00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:17.960 dance around a whole bunch until you're kind of tranced 732 00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:21.199 out and then you can make magic. There are inhibitory 733 00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:27.280 you know, meditation, quiet meditation, trying to you know, center 734 00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:29.440 yourself and be calm and still and get into that 735 00:41:29.480 --> 00:41:34.559 state road Hypnosis is a form of nosising is a 736 00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:36.480 form of nosis. When you know, like if you've ever 737 00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:39.480 back in school, if you were ever writing a paper 738 00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:41.639 and daydreaming and then you look down and you're just 739 00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:46.079 like doodling on the page, that's a gnostic state. So 740 00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:50.880 that's just something to keep in mind as we're trying 741 00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:55.559 to practice within a charismatic Chasmatic paradigm is getting into 742 00:41:55.599 --> 00:42:00.679 that kind of flow state. Paradigm shifting is basically the 743 00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:02.079 ability to change belief. 744 00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:06.599 It will the There's a there's. 745 00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:08.559 A couple of sayings within chasm magic of belief as 746 00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:13.760 a tool, a phrase that pops up a lot, which 747 00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:17.039 specifically because of the illumin Host trilogy, nothing is true, 748 00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:20.880 everything is permitted, or as it says in the Principiate Discordia, 749 00:42:20.920 --> 00:42:24.920 everything is true. Even false things are true. So we 750 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:27.320 get to kind of decide what we believe, and we 751 00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:29.320 can believe whatever we need to do to accomplish the 752 00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:34.119 work at hand. It I think that sort of trips 753 00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:39.039 people up sometimes because they think in terms of like, well, okay, 754 00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:41.519 but I'm gonna so I'm gonna worship Greek gods, but 755 00:42:41.559 --> 00:42:44.679 then I'm gonna worship Norse gods. But can I worship 756 00:42:44.679 --> 00:42:47.400 a Greek and Norse god together? That's not really paradigm shifting. 757 00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:52.679 That's just sort of an eclectic approached paganism, you know, 758 00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:57.159 a paradigm shift would be okay. I normally tend to 759 00:42:57.239 --> 00:43:01.639 think in sort of pantheistic terms, but for the purposes 760 00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:07.519 of this working, I'm going to not believe in any gods. 761 00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:10.360 I'm going to approach this as an atheist or i 762 00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:14.920 approach this as a henotheist, and I'm going to say 763 00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:18.559 that Eris is my primary goddess and she is the 764 00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:19.840 one who is partant to me, and I'm not going 765 00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:21.639 to worry about other gods, whether they exist or not. 766 00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:27.320 It's it's those isms set of the paradigm, like how 767 00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:31.840 we how we see spirituality as a whole. It doesn't 768 00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:35.440 exist yet, Things that haven't been believed, you know, whether 769 00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:40.440 it's our values or our perception of the divine, those 770 00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:44.000 things kind of shift on their own organically. Paradigm shifting 771 00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:47.480 is doing it intentionally, right. The best example that I 772 00:43:47.639 --> 00:43:51.960 that I have on hand for for paradigm shifting is there. 773 00:43:52.119 --> 00:43:54.079 And this is really because I often get asked, what's 774 00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:58.199 the difference between eclectic witchcraft and chaos witchcraft? And in 775 00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:02.000 eclectic witchcraft, we are assembling a practice around our beliefs, 776 00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:04.440 like we have an idea of what witchcraft is and 777 00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:06.159 maybe what God's we want to venerate, and we're going 778 00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:09.159 to figure out how to do that. Within chaos witchcraft, 779 00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:12.880 we are assembling beliefs around our practice. And the best 780 00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:14.760 example I can say I've been able to take up 781 00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:19.599 so far is there is an old Irish folk charm 782 00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:23.119 that comes from a book called Mystic Charm Irish Charms, 783 00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:25.800 Mystic Cures and Superstitions by Lady Jane Wilde. 784 00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:26.599 Oscar Wilde's mom. 785 00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:29.800 She was a folkworist, so she had collected the spell 786 00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:34.039 on how to become invisible, and it was you get 787 00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:37.239 the heart of a raven and you cut it open 788 00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:39.800 and you put three black beans in it, and then 789 00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:42.280 you bury the heart, and then the bean the bean 790 00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:44.760 tree grows, and then you take one of the beans 791 00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:47.440 and place it under your mouth and you like recite 792 00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:50.239 an invocation to Satan and then you can become visible. 793 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:55.599 And so let's if I'm going to go through it right, like, 794 00:44:55.679 --> 00:44:58.920 let's say I've decided to try the spell and I 795 00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:01.000 just happened to have a raven heart lying around, because 796 00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:03.360 of course I do. And you have to have a 797 00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:06.280 black handled knife as well. The color black is very important. 798 00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:10.159 It all ties in because as well, so blackbird, black knives, 799 00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:14.599 black being. I happen to have a raven heart, I've 800 00:45:14.599 --> 00:45:17.599 got some black beings. I'm down to do this. And 801 00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:20.559 then I get to the invocation to Satan. If I'm 802 00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:22.880 coming at it from an eclective point of view, I'm 803 00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:25.760 going to go, well, Satan really is a part of 804 00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:28.480 my pagan beliefs. So I'm going to start thinking about 805 00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:33.599 what gods or goddesses might relate to invisibility and what 806 00:45:33.679 --> 00:45:36.159 God and goddesses might relate to vegetation, because this is 807 00:45:36.199 --> 00:45:39.199 something growing and is there a connection there? Well, HETEs 808 00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:41.760 is sort of about invisibility, and he had that magic 809 00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:43.840 helmet that made him invisible and his wife is Persephony 810 00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:46.920 and choose the goddess of vegetation. So I can rewrite 811 00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:50.760 the invocation to Hades and Persephony and it'll probably work 812 00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:53.679 because like I'm doing everything else correctly, so this it 813 00:45:53.719 --> 00:45:58.719 would just be easier to worship Satan for five seconds. 814 00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:03.519 Like I'm gonna do my little location to Satan. I'm 815 00:46:03.559 --> 00:46:06.679 gonna pop the Bible in my mouth. If I turn invisible, noted. 816 00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:08.920 If I don't turn invisible, then maybe I'll try it. 817 00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:14.239 With's taking gods and seeing I love it, and that's 818 00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:16.719 that's for me. That's the big difference. That's assembling the 819 00:46:16.719 --> 00:46:17.760 belief around the practice. 820 00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:23.320 Yeah, all right, did any of you guys have any 821 00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:25.119 more Did any of you guys have any more questions 822 00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:26.159 on maybe on the paradigm shift. 823 00:46:26.199 --> 00:46:26.920 I want to jump over. 824 00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:30.039 Decisions, so in case anybody have something on that or 825 00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:31.039 any other questions. 826 00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:33.960 Do you think that you need an actual paradigm to 827 00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:34.519 be able to. 828 00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:35.199 Make it a shift? 829 00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:41.199 H That's a good question, and I uh, I think 830 00:46:41.199 --> 00:46:46.880 the term paradigm is fairly broad. I think just actually 831 00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:49.800 I'm gonna go back to the principia because within the 832 00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:53.519 Principitouscordia culture is defined as a group of people who 833 00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:55.360 are looking through the world, looking at the world through 834 00:46:55.400 --> 00:46:59.320 a particular grid. Each culture has their own grid. And 835 00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:03.840 if we don't necessarily have a belief system to shift 836 00:47:03.880 --> 00:47:06.719 into or out of, we can still shift our perception. 837 00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:09.719 We can still look at things the way someone else 838 00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:11.400 might look at it, and that would still count as 839 00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:11.840 a shift. 840 00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:16.480 Well. And Robert d'antowen Wilson, he specifically talks about this 841 00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:20.360 in regard to the mind tunnels. 842 00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:22.880 Yeah, reality tunnels, reality tunnels. 843 00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:28.079 Yeah, yeah, yeah, so and so we're trying to always 844 00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:32.039 talk about the concrete reality, the objective truth, but in 845 00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:36.840 doing so, our language is adding different levels of abstractions. 846 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:39.559 And he has it as a pyramidal structure going all 847 00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:43.079 the way up to the general abstraction of whatever truth 848 00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:44.440 or freedom or these things are. 849 00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:47.599 But it's reports of reports, and through. 850 00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:51.599 Our changing of paradigm, we change our understanding of the 851 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:56.480 actual concrete truth in and of itself, which is there. 852 00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:59.760 Because without that we can't have or talk about anything 853 00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:00.639 that's right. 854 00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:03.320 That's very platonic in nat very. 855 00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:07.360 Patonic, and I'm a platonist, So there's that I randomly 856 00:48:07.400 --> 00:48:09.920 have an anecdote that ties into what you're saying about 857 00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:13.519 the about perception we've been talking about Robert ATW. 858 00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:14.920 Wilson and the Illuminatus Trilogy. 859 00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:19.639 It was turned into a nine hour stage play directed 860 00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:22.360 by and productions of it happened and it was directed 861 00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:25.800 by a guy named Ken Campbell, and one night during 862 00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:29.159 a performance backstage, he and his wife conceived the daughter, 863 00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:33.679 and uh, her name, her name was Daisy, Daisy Aris 864 00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:35.719 Campbell was her full name. They named her after Aarics 865 00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:38.159 And she grew up to be sort of a free 866 00:48:38.199 --> 00:48:41.960 spirit and a performer and a libertine. And one day 867 00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:46.119 some her family got together and said, hey, Daisy, uh, 868 00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:48.960 we're gonna we need to go file a police report, 869 00:48:49.239 --> 00:48:52.519 and uh, you're the only You're the only reliable. 870 00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:53.519 Witness we have. Will you come with us? 871 00:48:53.559 --> 00:48:55.800 And she said okay, sure, and they get in the 872 00:48:55.840 --> 00:48:59.000 car and it turns out they were like, surprise, we're 873 00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:02.079 not going to go give a statement. We're having you institutionalized. 874 00:49:02.119 --> 00:49:04.559 We just needed to get you in more. And she 875 00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:06.280 threw a fit and she was like, I am not 876 00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:08.599 I am not insane. I do not need to be institutionalized. 877 00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:10.199 All I need right now is a copy of Soap 878 00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:13.360 Opera Digest. And she threw this huge fit about Soap 879 00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:16.199 Opera Digest, so big that they pulled over, and she 880 00:49:16.280 --> 00:49:18.119 stormed into a convenience store and bought a copy of 881 00:49:18.159 --> 00:49:21.440 Soap Opera Digests and she tore it open and the 882 00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:24.960 article she turned to the headline was Daisy Goes Crazy 883 00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:27.559 and so the most magazine. And she got back in 884 00:49:27.559 --> 00:49:29.679 the car and she said, I'd like to institutional. 885 00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:31.559 Lifestyle please synchronicities. 886 00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:35.719 Yeah, and that is my favorite discordant story at all time. 887 00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:43.599 Yeah, yeah, all right, so, uh sigils? 888 00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:44.360 Yes? 889 00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:46.239 Is that like a big Is that a big part 890 00:49:46.239 --> 00:49:47.280 of your chaos magic? 891 00:49:48.679 --> 00:49:50.920 The way it is, the way I do them is 892 00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:53.320 differently than a lot of people do them. I think 893 00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:58.840 sigils the modern concept of sigils is really comes from 894 00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:03.840 often husband Spaar's work filtered through an early cast magician 895 00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:09.679 named Gray Sherwin, and has now within modern occult spaces 896 00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:12.639 been very crystallized. Like you write out your intent and 897 00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:14.519 you cross out the letters and you put the letters 898 00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:17.519 into a pattern and you create a sigil. And a 899 00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:20.079 lot of people think that is how you make sigels. 900 00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:24.440 That is one way of making sigils. The way I 901 00:50:24.559 --> 00:50:26.039 make them, and I talk about this in the book, 902 00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:29.400 is almost sort of automatic writing, where I sort of 903 00:50:30.039 --> 00:50:31.639 get a story going in my head of what I 904 00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:33.920 want to see happen, of the reality that I that 905 00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:36.519 I want to perceive, that I want to experience, and 906 00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:39.840 then I just sort of without looking at the paper, 907 00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:41.679 just let my hand kind of holding the pen do 908 00:50:41.719 --> 00:50:44.400 whatever it wants, and when the story comes to a 909 00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:46.719 close in my head, then I have my sgul that 910 00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:49.880 I can do whatever I want with. I do think 911 00:50:49.880 --> 00:50:51.159 sigils are very efficient. 912 00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:52.480 They are. 913 00:50:55.480 --> 00:50:57.400 They are a good way of. 914 00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:01.920 Kind of getting into that gnostic state, especially in the 915 00:51:02.119 --> 00:51:06.920 inhibitory way of you know, whether it's you know, just 916 00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:09.480 drawing a doodle or whether it's breaking down letters and 917 00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:12.840 rearranging them to create a shape. All those help us 918 00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:16.559 get into that gnostic state and then we Yeah, I 919 00:51:16.599 --> 00:51:18.280 think I think they are very convenient. I think they're 920 00:51:18.360 --> 00:51:22.039 very efficient. But I will I will die on the hill. 921 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:24.920 There is an infinite variety of ways to make ways 922 00:51:24.920 --> 00:51:28.360 to make them. 923 00:51:28.599 --> 00:51:31.719 Don't you think that there are better ways than other ways? 924 00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:33.440 Though or not? 925 00:51:33.639 --> 00:51:35.280 I think there are. 926 00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:39.519 I think the right way to make sigils is always 927 00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:42.599 going to be individual because the way I make sigils 928 00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:45.000 may not, you know, may not work for somebody else. 929 00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:47.840 A friend of mine made amazing sigils using the kind 930 00:51:47.880 --> 00:51:51.000 of standard write the letters out that worked so well 931 00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:53.000 for her that never worked quite as well for me. 932 00:51:54.119 --> 00:51:58.519 The doodling method gets meet great results. I really I 933 00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:00.880 think that the when it comes to just witchcraft or 934 00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:03.840 magic in general, I don't think there's ever a right 935 00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:08.880 or wrong. I do think there's inefficient. And if we 936 00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:11.320 with sigils, if we get it in our heads that 937 00:52:11.320 --> 00:52:13.760 there's only this very specific way to do it and 938 00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:15.559 we have to do it that way, whether it works 939 00:52:15.559 --> 00:52:17.519 for us or not, that's inefficient. 940 00:52:19.880 --> 00:52:20.079 You know. 941 00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:22.360 Finding a better way for us individually is always going 942 00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:22.920 to work better. 943 00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:23.599 Yeah. 944 00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:27.119 And I think as an artist, when you're creating a 945 00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:33.840 creation process of manufacturing whatever your perceived reality is, and 946 00:52:34.119 --> 00:52:37.679 if you break it down to a formulae or make 947 00:52:37.719 --> 00:52:43.159 it formulaic, it kind of loses spontity in the natural 948 00:52:43.360 --> 00:52:48.519 energy of creativity. So I think that that variety of 949 00:52:49.239 --> 00:52:53.239 you know, possibility, leaves kind of the embers to grow 950 00:52:53.320 --> 00:52:54.039 over the arder. 951 00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:55.880 I don't think. 952 00:52:55.960 --> 00:52:57.760 I don't think having a framework is ever a bad 953 00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:00.719 idea of likes something that I know works for me. 954 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:02.559 So I'm gonna stick within that framework because i know 955 00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:06.079 I get results. But I'm never going to be afraid 956 00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:11.559 to experiment within that framework, right right, you know, And 957 00:53:12.199 --> 00:53:16.320 that's how our practices can get very very specialized but 958 00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:19.480 very uniquely tailor does where they may not look anything else, 959 00:53:19.519 --> 00:53:21.320 but if I'm getting results, I'm not gonna worry about. 960 00:53:21.079 --> 00:53:24.639 That, right And and with money art form the craft, 961 00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:28.840 you're essentially learning your pool and then you learn the 962 00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:34.800 nuance elements of how to you know, slightly manipulated them 963 00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:39.280 to get more exact, you know, servitude out of them. 964 00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:42.320 Oh yes, now there's you have some other things you 965 00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:43.960 hit that from that interesting. 966 00:53:43.800 --> 00:53:48.280 Moon water and uh, I mean you got classic practices moonwater, 967 00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:49.400 cord coting and anointing. 968 00:53:49.559 --> 00:53:52.480 What does chaos and discording and framing adds to these basics. 969 00:53:54.840 --> 00:54:00.119 So with moonwater specifically, moonwater is something that for some 970 00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:03.239 reason like gets under my skin when and I think 971 00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:06.519 that the moonwater craze seems to have died down in 972 00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:12.039 online spaces, but for a while, like you know, you know, hey, witches, 973 00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:16.199 who's making moon water? Tonight and like you're putting water 974 00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:20.559 in the jar and the moon controls the tides. Water 975 00:54:20.679 --> 00:54:23.440 is all. We don't have to make the water more moonish, right, 976 00:54:23.639 --> 00:54:28.119 Like that used to just make me crazy, so but 977 00:54:28.199 --> 00:54:32.079 people were also really stressing out about it, like, you know, 978 00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:37.039 did I did I make my moonwater correctly? Moon water incorrectly? 979 00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:41.880 So I wanted to give some ideas of like variations 980 00:54:41.880 --> 00:54:45.320 of just putting water on the windowsill at night and 981 00:54:45.400 --> 00:54:48.639 getting into the idea of willow water and you know, 982 00:54:48.679 --> 00:54:53.679 of soaking water, willow clicks and water, because the main ingredient, 983 00:54:53.840 --> 00:54:55.880 which is an old help tonic and is you know, 984 00:54:56.039 --> 00:54:59.000 farmers will pour willow water into the roots of plants 985 00:54:59.679 --> 00:55:01.320 and the bill is a tree that's sort of ruled 986 00:55:01.320 --> 00:55:06.519 by the moon. But it's the ingredients in willow that 987 00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:10.519 make it use make it useful as like a topical anesthetic. 988 00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:15.199 Are the same are process to make aspirin? 989 00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:16.039 Yes? 990 00:55:16.559 --> 00:55:18.400 So I was like, if you really want like useful 991 00:55:18.440 --> 00:55:21.360 moon water, My whole thing was like, get an aspirin. 992 00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:24.719 It's a little little, tiny moon And if you've got 993 00:55:24.760 --> 00:55:26.840 a tiny little pan, you can carve a tiny little 994 00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:29.559 sigil on your aspirin and dissolve that water. You have 995 00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:32.559 just made willow water, which is a traditional lunar water. 996 00:55:34.039 --> 00:55:36.440 I wanted people to think outside the box in that 997 00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:39.679 respect and not get so caught up in the idea 998 00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:44.119 of right and wrong over something so simple as putting 999 00:55:44.199 --> 00:55:44.800 water in. 1000 00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:45.800 A jar on the window. 1001 00:55:46.599 --> 00:55:49.800 And interestingly, as far as the whole willow thing within 1002 00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:53.239 the towel mood, they talk about not planting a willow 1003 00:55:53.239 --> 00:55:56.239 tree next to a well because the roots were going 1004 00:55:56.280 --> 00:55:58.960 into the well and by drinking that water on a 1005 00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:02.320 regular basis, it'll actually pull the energy. 1006 00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:02.480 Out of you. 1007 00:56:03.880 --> 00:56:09.280 That makes sense absolutely, that that numbing quality of the willow. 1008 00:56:11.679 --> 00:56:13.840 But so that's like with the with the moon water. 1009 00:56:13.960 --> 00:56:15.360 That was kind of my take on it, of like, 1010 00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:17.400 we don't have to get stressed out about this, and 1011 00:56:17.440 --> 00:56:19.559 we can do it, and we can find other efficient 1012 00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:25.800 ways to do it. With cord cutting people that that's 1013 00:56:25.840 --> 00:56:27.639 another thing where people get really caught up in the 1014 00:56:27.639 --> 00:56:31.119 cord cutting spells and the elaborate tying the you know, 1015 00:56:31.159 --> 00:56:33.159 the piece of thread to the two candles, and you 1016 00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:36.199 like candles, and then you watch the cord burn and 1017 00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:37.719 it's a terrible fire hazard. 1018 00:56:38.199 --> 00:56:38.960 But it's also not. 1019 00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:42.199 Ancient traditional witchcraft, Like the way people are doing it 1020 00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:45.960 now comes from the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina season three. 1021 00:56:46.239 --> 00:56:50.519 I think where does this spell? And it got well 1022 00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:52.800 pop culture has always had an, you know, an impact 1023 00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:56.559 on the occulture, and so after that episode came out, 1024 00:56:56.719 --> 00:56:59.679 suddenly all these people were casting cord cutting spells and 1025 00:56:59.800 --> 00:57:01.880 with in a couple of years. People did not realize 1026 00:57:01.880 --> 00:57:04.960 where it had come from. And we're stressing out about 1027 00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:06.840 it because the way people were doing it with the 1028 00:57:06.880 --> 00:57:12.559 two candles and the thread is more divinatory than anything else, Like, 1029 00:57:12.679 --> 00:57:14.960 how are these two people connected, which one is having 1030 00:57:14.960 --> 00:57:18.159 more influence over the other? Is this a healthy relationship? 1031 00:57:18.519 --> 00:57:21.480 Is this the you know? Did I just burn my 1032 00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:23.559 house down? Like? There's a lot of questions to be 1033 00:57:23.599 --> 00:57:28.800 answered with that. So my take on cord cutting was, well, 1034 00:57:28.920 --> 00:57:30.960 you know, light the candle, if you want to do 1035 00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:33.159 the chords, that's great. Cut the cord yourself, get scissors. 1036 00:57:33.760 --> 00:57:36.400 You imposed your will on the situation. Don't leave it 1037 00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:39.440 up to chance, you know. And then I followed it 1038 00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:41.559 up with and don't post the results on the internet 1039 00:57:41.599 --> 00:57:45.280 because of your cord nobody. You don't need to get 1040 00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:47.679 on Instagram to tell everybody you're doing it because you 1041 00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:52.039 have just reinforced the cords, you know. I was like, 1042 00:57:52.840 --> 00:57:55.280 I like, randomly, when I was writing that particular second, 1043 00:57:55.280 --> 00:57:56.559 I kind of like went off on this whole thing 1044 00:57:56.599 --> 00:58:00.440 about block your exes. Like I was, just like, you've 1045 00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:02.119 got if you're going to do the spell to cut 1046 00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:04.119 people out, you have to cut them out too. You 1047 00:58:04.159 --> 00:58:06.239 have to do the work in the real world to 1048 00:58:06.320 --> 00:58:10.639 bolster you know, cutting the string between your candles. 1049 00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:15.760 When you do said spells or rituals or anything in 1050 00:58:15.800 --> 00:58:19.239 that magical realm, say, for instance, even though to me 1051 00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:22.119 it sounds kind of ridiculous, but like you want to 1052 00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:25.239 find a new girlfriend that's going to resonate with you, 1053 00:58:25.760 --> 00:58:27.920 or a new boyfriend or a new partner or whatever, 1054 00:58:28.039 --> 00:58:30.199 or whatever it is that you know that people do 1055 00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:32.800 if you want to find love. Right, And what he 1056 00:58:32.920 --> 00:58:35.559 states is, yes, do your ritual, do your magic, do 1057 00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:38.880 your thing, but realize that you're not actually doing it 1058 00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:41.800 to manifest a person out there in the world. What 1059 00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:44.800 you're doing it is to vibrate your nervous system to 1060 00:58:44.960 --> 00:58:48.480 change you alchemically, so you can magnetize and rise to 1061 00:58:48.519 --> 00:58:51.840 the frequency of the individual that's already out there in 1062 00:58:51.880 --> 00:58:57.360 the world. So you can then it like rearranges the discord, 1063 00:58:57.519 --> 00:59:00.880 the chaos, if the of the universe into a chance 1064 00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:03.760 happenstance that all of a sudden you can become the 1065 00:59:03.840 --> 00:59:06.280 person that you're trying to attract, right, And I think 1066 00:59:06.280 --> 00:59:08.920 that's kind of similar to something that you were stating 1067 00:59:08.920 --> 00:59:10.639 at the very end, which I think is very important 1068 00:59:10.840 --> 00:59:14.239 and also grounds the whole work and understanding that you're 1069 00:59:14.320 --> 00:59:18.440 not actually manipulating like other people, which I think is 1070 00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:22.320 something that is awful to do. You want to make 1071 00:59:22.360 --> 00:59:26.079 sure you're only ever manipulating your own nervous system. And 1072 00:59:26.119 --> 00:59:29.400 this goes back to Robert Anton Wilson talking about where 1073 00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:32.880 his one of his people was Timothy Leary. And even 1074 00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:35.320 though Timothy Leary in the conspiracy world they want to 1075 00:59:35.360 --> 00:59:37.639 throw a lot of shade on him, if they were 1076 00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:41.039 to read his work like the Eight Circuits of Consciousness, 1077 00:59:41.079 --> 00:59:43.400 the bio saying, you know, what they would understand is 1078 00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:46.119 that he had two laws and the first one was 1079 00:59:46.199 --> 00:59:50.480 you know, one of them was don't change without their 1080 00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:53.519 knowing anybody else's consciousness, which I think is really important, 1081 00:59:53.599 --> 00:59:56.960 especially because he was doing work on LSD for Harvard 1082 00:59:57.480 --> 00:59:59.679 at that time. You know what I mean, and so 1083 00:59:59.719 --> 01:00:01.960 it's like, I think it's it's important talk when it 1084 01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:04.039 comes to chaos magic in and of itself, because it 1085 01:00:04.079 --> 01:00:05.960 gets a little chaotic. 1086 01:00:07.639 --> 01:00:09.480 I'm actually going to follow you up round in, but 1087 01:00:09.639 --> 01:00:12.840 not correct you this time, because I actually I actually 1088 01:00:12.920 --> 01:00:15.360 agree with you. I think that it is I think 1089 01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:19.559 the idea of a causality in magic is actually really important, 1090 01:00:19.599 --> 01:00:23.639 and I think that people should actually consider. I know 1091 01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:25.840 that you said to thump her about like imposing your 1092 01:00:25.880 --> 01:00:28.480 well for cord cutting, and I'm not against that, but 1093 01:00:28.559 --> 01:00:30.800 I also think, like how much do you want to 1094 01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:34.599 implicate yourself? You know, Like we have an rass figure 1095 01:00:34.679 --> 01:00:37.880 in I'm a Vagoriana Buddhist, so for me, we have 1096 01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:40.800 an Airas figure in dharma. Her name is Eka Jatti. 1097 01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:43.239 I've spoken about her many times on the show and 1098 01:00:43.280 --> 01:00:46.920 on my show, and you know she's she's the goddess 1099 01:00:46.920 --> 01:00:50.079 of mamos, which is the Tibetan word for chaos. So 1100 01:00:50.239 --> 01:00:52.679 they're very similar. I'm not saying they're exactly the same, 1101 01:00:52.760 --> 01:00:55.960 but they have they have an overlap, we'll say. And 1102 01:00:56.039 --> 01:01:00.519 so I like to look at if for my own practices, 1103 01:01:00.599 --> 01:01:03.239 I try and be a causal Now I understand, like 1104 01:01:03.320 --> 01:01:06.199 I am a sorcerer also, so I get that it's 1105 01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:09.239 never going to be one hundred percent perfect, and I 1106 01:01:09.320 --> 01:01:12.800 recognize and accept that. But I try, and I think 1107 01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:15.159 that it is about view like that's how we would 1108 01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:17.800 say in like a Buddhist sorcery way, It's about like 1109 01:01:17.960 --> 01:01:21.400 how you view it. Do you cultivate bodichiita? Do you 1110 01:01:21.599 --> 01:01:24.039 like do all these preliminary things that would be a 1111 01:01:24.039 --> 01:01:27.760 way to make like your sorcery a causal. So I try. 1112 01:01:27.800 --> 01:01:30.280 I do think what Brandon is saying is important because 1113 01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:32.199 I think that people should not want to implicate their 1114 01:01:32.280 --> 01:01:37.559 karma so deeply in an whether you agree with my framing, 1115 01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:41.400 not you Thumber, but just anyone listening broadly if they 1116 01:01:41.480 --> 01:01:44.079 agree with my a and of the daughter framework or not, 1117 01:01:44.320 --> 01:01:46.920 or they still think we're in Caliyuga, which the contrast 1118 01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:49.159 say we're not. So I don't think we are. So 1119 01:01:50.039 --> 01:01:52.199 I just sim I'm saying that do you want to 1120 01:01:52.199 --> 01:01:54.679 be stuck in the degraded a on? I personally don't. 1121 01:01:54.760 --> 01:01:57.159 I want to move forward with the aon. That's just me. 1122 01:01:57.760 --> 01:01:59.800 So I think that this idea of like a cause 1123 01:01:59.840 --> 01:02:04.119 out and looking to lighten your karmic load. Maybe you 1124 01:02:04.159 --> 01:02:07.840 could say is actually important to think about. Just think about, 1125 01:02:08.000 --> 01:02:09.920 just as an idea. 1126 01:02:10.840 --> 01:02:15.400 Got nice, nice gin, I can be. 1127 01:02:15.360 --> 01:02:18.320 Good to you. I'm not just leftime path and evil. 1128 01:02:18.719 --> 01:02:19.320 I know you can. 1129 01:02:19.519 --> 01:02:21.400 I know, and I see within your eyes that I've 1130 01:02:21.440 --> 01:02:22.199 never truly saw. 1131 01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:28.880 I do like the idea of a causality, and I 1132 01:02:28.920 --> 01:02:31.639 do think one thing that tripped a lot of modern 1133 01:02:31.719 --> 01:02:37.599 practitioners is kind of fear of consequence. And you know, 1134 01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:40.760 if I, if I do something, you know, people are 1135 01:02:40.920 --> 01:02:43.280 and it's it's where people get caught up in either 1136 01:02:44.239 --> 01:02:46.039 a lot well today people get caught up in like 1137 01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:48.119 bashing the idea of the threefold law, you know, and 1138 01:02:48.159 --> 01:02:50.880 that's wicked and that's silly. And then somebody people mention 1139 01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:52.400 a love spell and they be like, oh no, if 1140 01:02:52.440 --> 01:02:55.159 you cast a love spell, that will rebound back upon 1141 01:02:55.239 --> 01:02:58.440 you somewhere between two and four times. Right Like, they're 1142 01:02:58.440 --> 01:03:00.440 still caught up in that idea of the content sequence. 1143 01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:04.320 But all actions have consequence. Consequence is not necessarily a 1144 01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:09.360 bad thing, right Like if I if I write a 1145 01:03:09.400 --> 01:03:13.199 glowing five star review for a friend's book and that 1146 01:03:13.239 --> 01:03:16.840 results in the book selling better, that's a good consequence. Right, 1147 01:03:17.039 --> 01:03:20.960 Like it's like I still still my actions. It's just 1148 01:03:21.039 --> 01:03:24.679 the consequence worked out well for everyone. Consequences don't have 1149 01:03:24.719 --> 01:03:26.960 to be negative. And we also and we don't have 1150 01:03:27.119 --> 01:03:30.880 to always be worried about, you know, how much damage 1151 01:03:30.880 --> 01:03:33.239 are we doing. We can also just kind of think 1152 01:03:33.239 --> 01:03:36.880 in terms of, you know, how can I how can 1153 01:03:36.920 --> 01:03:39.039 I make things work out for not only myself but 1154 01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:41.079 for the people around me? You know, how can I 1155 01:03:41.079 --> 01:03:45.199 have these things where I'm causing the least amount of 1156 01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:48.400 collateral collateral damage while still getting the results I want? 1157 01:03:50.400 --> 01:03:51.840 Yeah, And I think it's something to think about. 1158 01:03:51.840 --> 01:03:54.519 Also how important especially in the magical world, but not 1159 01:03:54.559 --> 01:03:58.000 even that, just everyday life. There are there is a 1160 01:03:58.079 --> 01:04:02.960 real dichotomy between harm and dissonance, and we hear it 1161 01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:07.679 in music and it is two opposite polls of That's 1162 01:04:07.679 --> 01:04:10.880 why sacred geometry works. That's why the music of the 1163 01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:14.280 Spheares was talking about with the Pythagorian cults and how 1164 01:04:14.320 --> 01:04:18.079 we could create music itself, you kind of these things, 1165 01:04:18.199 --> 01:04:20.800 you know, and so it's like that would be something 1166 01:04:20.840 --> 01:04:24.599 to think about when we're trying to understand while it's 1167 01:04:24.599 --> 01:04:28.079 you know, it's the least possible consequence, but at the 1168 01:04:28.119 --> 01:04:30.159 same time, it's like, can we also try to make 1169 01:04:30.199 --> 01:04:35.320 it so consequence is harmonious with things, because when it's dissonant, 1170 01:04:35.800 --> 01:04:39.079 that's when karma, we could say, is produced because we're 1171 01:04:39.119 --> 01:04:42.840 kind of going against the flow. Or in Crolly's words 1172 01:04:42.840 --> 01:04:45.039 of the AA, it's that every man and every woman 1173 01:04:45.159 --> 01:04:47.760 is a star. And so when he's talking about that, 1174 01:04:47.800 --> 01:04:50.519 what that means is that we are all in the 1175 01:04:50.679 --> 01:04:55.800 universe as stars moving perfectly with the harmony of the spheres. 1176 01:04:56.199 --> 01:05:00.400 And it's when my interpretation is that when we move 1177 01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:04.519 through the world in a dissonance state, that's when all 1178 01:05:04.519 --> 01:05:07.719 of a sudden stars collide. And we could use moral 1179 01:05:07.760 --> 01:05:10.559 ambiguous terms, which I think is really important. But you know, 1180 01:05:10.599 --> 01:05:13.400 because this is like, well that just happens in the universe, Well, 1181 01:05:13.400 --> 01:05:16.239 it's like, well, then look, can we also understand that 1182 01:05:16.239 --> 01:05:22.320 that has its own levels of chaotic dissonant reflections through 1183 01:05:22.559 --> 01:05:27.199 the cause effect making machine of the universe. These things 1184 01:05:27.239 --> 01:05:29.760 I ponder continuously. 1185 01:05:29.920 --> 01:05:37.119 What managed to I guess you over time, results of revelations. 1186 01:05:36.639 --> 01:05:42.239 You know, both are important because I still like getting results, 1187 01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:49.599 But revelation and understanding has become the older I get, 1188 01:05:49.599 --> 01:05:55.239 the more important that gets you know I think fifteen. No, 1189 01:05:55.440 --> 01:05:58.079 if you had ask me that, I would say, I 1190 01:05:58.079 --> 01:06:01.320 don't have to understand something for it to work, and 1191 01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:02.800 I would be more caught up in the in the 1192 01:06:02.800 --> 01:06:09.639 work itself. Today, what I find so fascinating, especially about 1193 01:06:09.639 --> 01:06:12.440 the cult, is like the more is learning more about 1194 01:06:12.440 --> 01:06:16.039 the history and the connections and and you know where 1195 01:06:16.079 --> 01:06:19.320 ideas came from, and how new ideas connect to old ideas, 1196 01:06:19.519 --> 01:06:24.840 and the uh one of the biggest I think I 1197 01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:27.480 mentioned this in the book towards the end, but as 1198 01:06:27.480 --> 01:06:31.800 an example, several years ago, I was introduced to listenmancy 1199 01:06:31.800 --> 01:06:35.239 listmantic divination, divination with stones, and it was sort of 1200 01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:38.920 pitched to me as like, this is like ancient witchcraft. 1201 01:06:39.119 --> 01:06:43.320 This is you know, the the ancient seers of Greece 1202 01:06:43.360 --> 01:06:45.960 and Rome would cast the pebbles and see the future. 1203 01:06:46.679 --> 01:06:48.320 And I was I. 1204 01:06:48.239 --> 01:06:50.760 Started looking into it, and I started experimenting with it, 1205 01:06:50.760 --> 01:06:52.280 and it worked really well for me, and the more 1206 01:06:52.360 --> 01:06:53.880 I Dug and Doug and Doug, cause I was like, 1207 01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:56.400 but I want to find the source of this, Like 1208 01:06:56.440 --> 01:06:59.000 what documents do we have that ancient Greeks and Romans 1209 01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:02.400 were throwing were casting the pebbles? And I was able 1210 01:07:02.440 --> 01:07:04.639 to trace the history of modern litzmancy all the way 1211 01:07:04.679 --> 01:07:08.480 back to nineteen seventy eight and a book on Witchcraft 1212 01:07:08.480 --> 01:07:11.480 for Tomorrow by Duren Valiante where she has a section 1213 01:07:11.800 --> 01:07:18.000 on listomancy and the practice of listmancy continued, but nobody 1214 01:07:18.079 --> 01:07:20.760 remembered to write down where they found it. So today 1215 01:07:20.880 --> 01:07:22.800 when you pick up a book on lismancy, it is 1216 01:07:23.239 --> 01:07:26.480 the origin of the Listhmantic divination are shrouded in history, 1217 01:07:27.159 --> 01:07:29.199 and no they're not. They're shrouded in nineteen seventy eight. 1218 01:07:30.400 --> 01:07:33.119 But on the one hand, I get results from them, 1219 01:07:33.119 --> 01:07:35.119 so it doesn't matter that they come from the seventies 1220 01:07:35.119 --> 01:07:39.119 instead of you know, antiquity. But I also find it 1221 01:07:39.239 --> 01:07:42.280 so fascinating that they came from nineteen seventy eight and 1222 01:07:42.320 --> 01:07:45.119 that this one witch in England figured this out on 1223 01:07:45.159 --> 01:07:48.199 our own and created a system that could be replicated, 1224 01:07:49.400 --> 01:07:53.960 And that history is more interesting to me whether than 1225 01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:56.400 if it had been well, this is how an ancient 1226 01:07:56.400 --> 01:08:01.159 Greek was doing, like the learning problems of it. Of wow, 1227 01:08:01.239 --> 01:08:04.960 this which in the seventies just invented this. That's amazing. 1228 01:08:05.719 --> 01:08:08.000 That revelation is cooler to be than anything else. 1229 01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:12.400 I want to respond to that really quick, because I 1230 01:08:12.440 --> 01:08:17.079 find that really interesting also that you said from nineteen 1231 01:08:17.119 --> 01:08:19.359 seventy eight, simply because this is true for a lot 1232 01:08:19.399 --> 01:08:21.520 of modern magic. It does seem to be true for 1233 01:08:21.680 --> 01:08:23.760 a lot of modern magic. It seems to be a 1234 01:08:23.800 --> 01:08:29.399 lot of recreation, like not just not just not just 1235 01:08:29.439 --> 01:08:31.920 from the you know, the New Age, like nineteen se 1236 01:08:31.960 --> 01:08:33.920 I'm not putting it down because some of that stuff 1237 01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:36.479 does work, and I think that you're very very prescient 1238 01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:39.119 that you say that that you can get results from it, 1239 01:08:39.159 --> 01:08:43.119 because you can because it is based on older ideas, 1240 01:08:43.399 --> 01:08:45.760 but we don't even know what those ideas are. Which 1241 01:08:45.800 --> 01:08:50.520 is sometimes my issue with some of the institutional formations 1242 01:08:50.520 --> 01:08:53.359 of magic is that they will pretend I call it 1243 01:08:53.359 --> 01:08:56.000 the Great Wewiz King's Larp. I'm sorry, I'm not trying 1244 01:08:56.000 --> 01:08:57.680 to find anyone, but I thought it is what I 1245 01:08:57.760 --> 01:09:02.319 call it. You know, they they tend to project themselves 1246 01:09:02.359 --> 01:09:05.479 into the antiquity. We don't know what the fuck they 1247 01:09:05.520 --> 01:09:09.159 were practicing, just to speak really plainly, and so it's 1248 01:09:09.319 --> 01:09:13.520 really difficult to then be like, Okay, this is what 1249 01:09:13.520 --> 01:09:15.600 we're going to do in twenty twenty six, just like 1250 01:09:15.640 --> 01:09:19.119 these quote unquote ancient Wei was kinges, Well, we can't 1251 01:09:19.199 --> 01:09:21.880 do that, so we have to actually use what is pragmatic, 1252 01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:24.359 what actually worked, and if it comes from a during 1253 01:09:24.439 --> 01:09:27.159 val Ante book, so be it. What's the big deal? 1254 01:09:28.279 --> 01:09:31.800 And it's just a matter of each individual finding these 1255 01:09:31.840 --> 01:09:35.119 necessary tools to be able to draw out, you know, 1256 01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:37.319 and make these things workable. 1257 01:09:38.319 --> 01:09:42.520 Yeah, I'm gonna say I like what everything Buddy's saying, 1258 01:09:42.560 --> 01:09:46.359 because there is something definitely beautiful about the idea that 1259 01:09:46.439 --> 01:09:50.399 everything stems from the human nervous system body mind, sysogy, 1260 01:09:50.479 --> 01:09:52.760 you know. So it's like, of course we're going to 1261 01:09:52.800 --> 01:09:55.119 be able to tap into these things if we have 1262 01:09:55.239 --> 01:10:01.279 the right passion, madness and different things like that. But 1263 01:10:01.399 --> 01:10:04.520 what's really important I think also why it's like, not 1264 01:10:04.720 --> 01:10:09.039 all things are magic. I believe in magic and all things, 1265 01:10:09.640 --> 01:10:13.199 but not all things are magic, and so it seems 1266 01:10:13.199 --> 01:10:16.479 to be a contradiction, but it's not. Because if you 1267 01:10:16.600 --> 01:10:19.760 want to hammer and nail, it's the best thing to 1268 01:10:19.880 --> 01:10:22.439 use as a hammer. You can use your shoe. It 1269 01:10:22.560 --> 01:10:25.359 just might take longer. And so there's something really interesting 1270 01:10:25.399 --> 01:10:28.760 with that. It's like there are structoral systems that can 1271 01:10:28.760 --> 01:10:31.680 be used by individual practitioners, and we may not know 1272 01:10:31.800 --> 01:10:34.960 exactly how that came through time. But what I'm coming 1273 01:10:35.000 --> 01:10:37.840 to understand more is that if we can use the 1274 01:10:37.920 --> 01:10:42.800 term philosophy, right, the philosophia this thing where you can 1275 01:10:42.920 --> 01:10:46.520 learn how to critically think, how to analyze, and how 1276 01:10:46.560 --> 01:10:51.159 to break things down in a structoral that love of wisdom, 1277 01:10:51.279 --> 01:10:53.960 break it down in a way, you know, then we 1278 01:10:54.119 --> 01:10:57.479 can Actually that's how magic works, right, is that you 1279 01:10:57.560 --> 01:11:00.840 have a science and art of causing change with your will. 1280 01:11:00.920 --> 01:11:04.560 Even though it's like a massively hated definition, especially by 1281 01:11:04.600 --> 01:11:07.560 those who are who have stemmed them through the different 1282 01:11:07.600 --> 01:11:10.680 institutions and organizations like the Golden Dawn, these things like that. 1283 01:11:10.680 --> 01:11:12.079 They want to go away from things like that. But 1284 01:11:12.119 --> 01:11:16.239 it's like, if we can find the science of it, 1285 01:11:16.359 --> 01:11:19.760 and you know, and I don't mean this functional mechanistic science, 1286 01:11:19.800 --> 01:11:22.960 but that philosophia, that love of wisdom, that ability to 1287 01:11:23.560 --> 01:11:27.159 put yourself into a state of ecstasy. That's why another 1288 01:11:28.239 --> 01:11:31.920 Crowley book or thing that he wrote was The The 1289 01:11:32.319 --> 01:11:36.880 Enthusiastic Ecstasy, right this and that's you know done, yeah exactly, 1290 01:11:36.960 --> 01:11:39.760 that's done through either your divine dance or the harmony 1291 01:11:39.760 --> 01:11:41.479 of the spheres for the Apollo. That's how you can 1292 01:11:41.479 --> 01:11:44.640 break it into the Apollonian, the Dionesian. But there is 1293 01:11:44.880 --> 01:11:49.199 something that you can do to gain the best results, 1294 01:11:49.279 --> 01:11:52.600 and it's not everything. So it's like there's a it's 1295 01:11:52.600 --> 01:11:54.800 a fine line if that, if any of that makes sense. 1296 01:11:55.079 --> 01:11:57.359 That was one thing that for me was very refreshing 1297 01:11:57.399 --> 01:12:03.319 about both discordyanisment chaos magic is that neither system makes 1298 01:12:03.319 --> 01:12:09.279 any bones about being ancient. And you know, the pioneers 1299 01:12:09.279 --> 01:12:12.880 of chaos magic, we're taking structural systems and reworking them 1300 01:12:12.920 --> 01:12:16.079 to try to make them more efficient. Discordianism took this 1301 01:12:16.199 --> 01:12:18.840 one myth from Greek mythology and built something entirely new 1302 01:12:18.840 --> 01:12:21.359 out of it, and they were very open about that. 1303 01:12:21.960 --> 01:12:24.760 And you know, throughout the history of occultism, I think 1304 01:12:24.760 --> 01:12:27.880 it really started picking up steam with the rights of theosophy. 1305 01:12:27.920 --> 01:12:31.840 But even pre theosophy, you know, the guy in the 1306 01:12:31.920 --> 01:12:35.039 late seventeen hundreds who started using tarot cards for divination 1307 01:12:35.880 --> 01:12:37.840 didn't say, hey, guys, look what I can do. 1308 01:12:38.239 --> 01:12:41.239 He said, oh, this comes to us from ancient Egypt. 1309 01:12:41.720 --> 01:12:45.159 And it was like, no, it was. 1310 01:12:44.439 --> 01:12:48.760 An Anglican priest in seventeen ninety nine, the Key of Almen, 1311 01:12:52.000 --> 01:12:55.880 it was. It was the fifteen hundreds, but not much 1312 01:12:55.920 --> 01:12:58.520 further back than that, but even back then it was 1313 01:12:58.560 --> 01:13:01.680 this idea, but this is ancient, which means it's real 1314 01:13:01.880 --> 01:13:05.640 and valid, and well it doesn't right. 1315 01:13:05.800 --> 01:13:10.520 I was gonna say the Bohemian Taro that is by Pappus, 1316 01:13:11.079 --> 01:13:14.119 it claims to be the most ancient book in the world, 1317 01:13:14.199 --> 01:13:16.680 and you know, so, yeah, you consist, but this is 1318 01:13:17.079 --> 01:13:20.520 something you consistently need to get it like the templars 1319 01:13:20.840 --> 01:13:25.079 you know later on claiming lineage or the resecrutions even 1320 01:13:25.279 --> 01:13:29.000 claiming lineage, and it just adds. It's this power multiplier. 1321 01:13:29.319 --> 01:13:34.159 It's a way to excite the nervous system in a 1322 01:13:34.199 --> 01:13:37.840 way that you're participating with something that echoes back into 1323 01:13:37.880 --> 01:13:40.840 the dawn of you know, human thinking in the mind 1324 01:13:41.000 --> 01:13:43.279 and and who we are as a species. 1325 01:13:43.880 --> 01:13:50.399 Yeah, and theosophy really introduced that utopian idea that before, 1326 01:13:50.479 --> 01:13:52.359 you know, before all this modern stuff was going on 1327 01:13:52.880 --> 01:14:00.079 human and that's what it's. Modern cultures, without realizing that 1328 01:14:00.159 --> 01:14:05.720 are still thinking in terms of ancient utopia, when if 1329 01:14:05.720 --> 01:14:09.119 we transported them back to that time very quickly, they'd 1330 01:14:09.119 --> 01:14:10.600 be like, this is not a utopia, this is not. 1331 01:14:12.760 --> 01:14:12.960 Right. 1332 01:14:14.039 --> 01:14:16.800 But we do have that sort of idealism about accultism 1333 01:14:16.840 --> 01:14:18.640 a lot of times, and that needs me in order 1334 01:14:18.680 --> 01:14:19.640 to be valid. 1335 01:14:20.279 --> 01:14:20.479 You know. 1336 01:14:20.520 --> 01:14:22.199 One of the big one thing I hear a lot 1337 01:14:22.279 --> 01:14:25.159 about in social media when people are complaining about Wika 1338 01:14:25.600 --> 01:14:28.800 it's new, but rich Craft is old, and I'm like, well, 1339 01:14:28.880 --> 01:14:31.159 all your witch coming from the same sources that Wika did. 1340 01:14:32.119 --> 01:14:36.680 You're just you're, yeah, you're you're you're promoting this ancient 1341 01:14:36.680 --> 01:14:39.479 witch cult idea that you are also saying has been discredited, 1342 01:14:39.520 --> 01:14:41.439 and yet you are still wanting us to believe it. 1343 01:14:42.319 --> 01:14:46.000 Yeah, yeah, And that's just That's exactly what Francis Dame 1344 01:14:46.079 --> 01:14:50.760 Yeats was wrote about in her Hermitica Traditions with Geodorno 1345 01:14:50.760 --> 01:14:55.119 Bruno is that there's this great argument that thoth Hermes 1346 01:14:55.279 --> 01:14:59.840 the thrice Great was this ancient, ancient you know, and 1347 01:15:00.039 --> 01:15:03.560 her Meticism is this ancient, ancient, ancient thing from thousand 1348 01:15:03.560 --> 01:15:07.920 two thousand DC, when really it actually was the syncretic 1349 01:15:08.079 --> 01:15:14.600 integration of Platonism, Neoplatonism, Stoicism, and their philosophies had actually 1350 01:15:14.640 --> 01:15:16.960 reached a point where they couldn't They were like, we 1351 01:15:17.000 --> 01:15:19.000 don't know what else to do, and then all of 1352 01:15:19.039 --> 01:15:23.199 a sudden they integrate all these ritual and the different things, 1353 01:15:23.239 --> 01:15:24.439 and all of a sudden they come up with her 1354 01:15:24.439 --> 01:15:27.279 Meticism when you know, even though you know, integrating the 1355 01:15:27.319 --> 01:15:30.800 Gnostic texts as well and the Emerald tablets that were 1356 01:15:30.840 --> 01:15:33.199 you know, before them, but it's a fastcame. It's just 1357 01:15:33.279 --> 01:15:36.960 a sac same thing of like, oh, Hermes the Thrice, 1358 01:15:37.079 --> 01:15:37.840 you know, that whole thing. 1359 01:15:38.279 --> 01:15:41.680 Yeah, And interestingly with Hermes, you know, from t Hoodie 1360 01:15:41.840 --> 01:15:46.800 to Thaw to Hermes the Mercury, it's always been kind 1361 01:15:46.840 --> 01:15:51.319 of related to the idea of it's the conscious brain 1362 01:15:51.920 --> 01:15:55.560 of society as a whole, and all of these scientific 1363 01:15:55.680 --> 01:16:00.560 works are kind of the the process of humanity kind 1364 01:16:00.560 --> 01:16:04.720 of bringing forth these ideas as the mind of the divine. 1365 01:16:05.640 --> 01:16:08.600 Yeah, yeah, nice, and I will I do want the 1366 01:16:08.640 --> 01:16:11.680 audience to know there is such thing as the Tholth cult, 1367 01:16:12.079 --> 01:16:14.560 there is such thing as the Hermes cult. There was 1368 01:16:15.359 --> 01:16:19.000 and there are the theogia, right, the divine workings of 1369 01:16:19.079 --> 01:16:24.199 ancient Egyptian and the orphic mysteries and the Pythagorene mysteries 1370 01:16:24.520 --> 01:16:26.520 that stem through and you can see it written in 1371 01:16:26.560 --> 01:16:30.039 Plato's works. And so it's not that those things weren't happening, 1372 01:16:30.520 --> 01:16:35.720 it's that the Hermetic tradition is in thousands of years old, 1373 01:16:35.800 --> 01:16:39.000 but it's a syncretized understanding of those things, similar to 1374 01:16:39.479 --> 01:16:43.840 what you're talking about, Thumper, with witchcraft and wiganism. It 1375 01:16:43.880 --> 01:16:46.359 is that amalgamation of things, and now we have a 1376 01:16:46.359 --> 01:16:49.279 new label for it. So for the modern thinker to think, 1377 01:16:49.319 --> 01:16:49.840 then it's. 1378 01:16:49.720 --> 01:16:56.319 Ancient, yeah, absolutely, and modern witchcraft it's it's I'm far 1379 01:16:56.359 --> 01:16:58.000 too old to be on TikTok, but they let me 1380 01:16:58.000 --> 01:17:03.159 on anyway. But that's one thing that I put a 1381 01:17:03.199 --> 01:17:08.720 lot of effort into pointing out the origins of current 1382 01:17:08.720 --> 01:17:13.439 witchcraft trends and ideas, because a lot of what people 1383 01:17:13.960 --> 01:17:19.520 present as traditional witchcraft is an amalgamation of WICCA, chaos 1384 01:17:19.560 --> 01:17:22.520 magic and who do. Because in the late two thousands 1385 01:17:22.520 --> 01:17:25.319 there was this big online thing where the movie The 1386 01:17:25.359 --> 01:17:27.119 Skeleton Key came out in two thousand and six, a 1387 01:17:27.159 --> 01:17:30.840 bunch of pagans Google who Do, found an online correspondence course, 1388 01:17:30.920 --> 01:17:33.399 appropriated a whole bunch of it. Again, did not write 1389 01:17:33.399 --> 01:17:35.840 down their sources. So ten years later everybody was like, 1390 01:17:36.279 --> 01:17:38.760 this is ancient traditional witchcraft, and I'm like, that's a 1391 01:17:38.800 --> 01:17:42.840 sour jar from nineteen thirty nine. That is not ancient 1392 01:17:42.880 --> 01:17:45.960 traditional witchcraft. That is African American folk magic, right. White 1393 01:17:45.960 --> 01:17:50.359 people set it down right, but people don't. People don't 1394 01:17:50.439 --> 01:17:53.159 know the history, and there's sort of this collective amnesia 1395 01:17:53.239 --> 01:17:58.079 around it at times where painting and evolving, which is great, 1396 01:17:58.680 --> 01:18:00.840 but it would help to know where it comes from, 1397 01:18:00.880 --> 01:18:03.319 so we're not always so we're not always claiming that 1398 01:18:03.399 --> 01:18:04.800 it is ten thousand years old. 1399 01:18:06.880 --> 01:18:09.199 I want to respond to that as like someone who 1400 01:18:09.399 --> 01:18:11.439 has well, like Nick and I have done shows on 1401 01:18:11.840 --> 01:18:15.439 like different afrosyncritic traditions. Okayeah, we did a long form 1402 01:18:15.439 --> 01:18:20.199 series on that, and I'm regretting his name now de 1403 01:18:20.279 --> 01:18:24.680 Lawrence Company. Laurence Company published from Chicago, So I'm quite 1404 01:18:24.720 --> 01:18:28.520 familiar with the who doo sort of methodology and like 1405 01:18:28.560 --> 01:18:30.920 the history. I think that's a really great point you 1406 01:18:30.960 --> 01:18:34.119 brought up how there was an infusion especially in that 1407 01:18:34.279 --> 01:18:37.560 like the Catherine Ironwood like all her you know, all 1408 01:18:37.560 --> 01:18:40.239 her books, and her book is really good, like her book, 1409 01:18:40.359 --> 01:18:43.000 her her book. I'm not saying it's like better than 1410 01:18:43.000 --> 01:18:44.920 any her book in twenty twenty six, but I was 1411 01:18:44.960 --> 01:18:47.479 saying that I would personally still I mean, I still 1412 01:18:47.479 --> 01:18:49.319 own it and I still think it's one of my 1413 01:18:49.359 --> 01:18:51.800 best her books. So I'm just saying, like you want, 1414 01:18:51.840 --> 01:18:56.199 like some real real shit. It's it's good. And I 1415 01:18:56.239 --> 01:19:00.039 also think that I think it was even before. I 1416 01:19:00.079 --> 01:19:02.720 think it was like the Hermann Slater like the kind 1417 01:19:02.760 --> 01:19:05.119 of like the oil making that kind of like New 1418 01:19:05.199 --> 01:19:09.600 York chaos, magic, leftime path, like Oto crowd. I think 1419 01:19:09.600 --> 01:19:12.800 that they were also like very much informed by like 1420 01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:15.840 the kind of like card readers of the Bronx and 1421 01:19:15.880 --> 01:19:20.159 the Botanica culture of like I guess it's Brooklyn, but 1422 01:19:20.239 --> 01:19:22.920 like Harlem and like all all of those kinds of things. 1423 01:19:22.920 --> 01:19:25.479 Like I think that magic and I've said this so 1424 01:19:25.479 --> 01:19:28.960 many times, so I apologize, But you know, magic works 1425 01:19:29.319 --> 01:19:33.119 better together because gnosis and knowledge worked better together because 1426 01:19:33.159 --> 01:19:36.439 only in synthesis can you actually understand the contour of 1427 01:19:36.479 --> 01:19:40.399 the truth. So like what actually works, That's what I think. 1428 01:19:40.439 --> 01:19:40.840 I don't know. 1429 01:19:42.000 --> 01:19:43.640 Oh, hold up, hold, I was second thought. I had 1430 01:19:43.680 --> 01:19:44.399 you read it again. 1431 01:19:45.720 --> 01:19:50.479 About the background place. No, I absolutely agree with you, 1432 01:19:50.560 --> 01:19:54.880 and I think that what especially when you mentioned Herman Slater, right, 1433 01:19:54.880 --> 01:19:56.439 he was the owner of what was originally called the 1434 01:19:56.439 --> 01:19:59.039 Warlock Shop and then eventually became Magical Child. This this 1435 01:19:59.119 --> 01:20:03.000 kind of iconic a cult shop in New York and 1436 01:20:03.199 --> 01:20:05.039 he was putting out he was you know, he had 1437 01:20:05.039 --> 01:20:07.880 a publishing arm and was putting out books on how 1438 01:20:07.920 --> 01:20:11.760 to make magical oils that was very influenced by. 1439 01:20:13.159 --> 01:20:13.760 A lot of. 1440 01:20:14.079 --> 01:20:18.760 By the folk magic of marginalized groups who were also 1441 01:20:18.840 --> 01:20:23.520 shopping at Magical Child. And the same thing with the 1442 01:20:24.000 --> 01:20:27.720 store in my area that the first time I went there, 1443 01:20:28.239 --> 01:20:30.000 I was expecting kind of a new age bookstore, and 1444 01:20:30.039 --> 01:20:32.880 I walked into what appeared to be a Yarborea and 1445 01:20:32.920 --> 01:20:35.520 I was like, this feels a little weird and appropriate 1446 01:20:35.560 --> 01:20:38.279 of why are we, you know, keeping all the neat 1447 01:20:38.960 --> 01:20:41.159 high end new Age astrology books next to all the 1448 01:20:42.039 --> 01:20:45.239 Africa Arabean religious products. And I just mentioned something in 1449 01:20:45.239 --> 01:20:47.600 passing to the owner and she was like, oh, well, 1450 01:20:47.800 --> 01:20:51.399 we have all these customers coming in who practice these 1451 01:20:51.439 --> 01:20:53.600 religions and they don't want to have to drive all 1452 01:20:53.640 --> 01:20:55.760 the way across town to the Mojo store on the 1453 01:20:55.800 --> 01:20:57.439 other side of downtown, so they asked me to start 1454 01:20:57.479 --> 01:21:00.600 carrying it. So you know that, I think something very 1455 01:21:00.600 --> 01:21:04.399 similar happened in New York, where Slater was carrying products 1456 01:21:04.439 --> 01:21:09.159 and manufacturing products for a specific customer base, which in 1457 01:21:09.199 --> 01:21:12.600 itself is kind of syncretic. What happened with Lucky Mojo 1458 01:21:13.039 --> 01:21:18.319 was that when the pagan community discovered this online who 1459 01:21:18.359 --> 01:21:21.920 Do resource, there was an idea at the time that 1460 01:21:22.039 --> 01:21:26.600 anything magical was pagan, that if that Christians could not 1461 01:21:26.640 --> 01:21:29.039 practice magic, that you couldn't be Christian and believe in magic. 1462 01:21:29.840 --> 01:21:32.279 So these Pagans were sort of flooding into these online 1463 01:21:32.279 --> 01:21:35.960 spaces that were designed for who Do and for African 1464 01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:39.000 American root work, and we're asking things like, well, how 1465 01:21:39.000 --> 01:21:42.000 do you reconcile this Christianity with your pagan beliefs? And 1466 01:21:42.039 --> 01:21:44.840 the roots were like, well, we're not pagan. And the 1467 01:21:44.880 --> 01:21:47.520 Pagans got this idea of like we must save the 1468 01:21:47.600 --> 01:21:51.000 magic from the Christians, right, And they also didn't really 1469 01:21:51.039 --> 01:21:52.640 want to follow rules, so they didn't want to be 1470 01:21:53.000 --> 01:21:55.119 you know, we're witches. Nobody tells us what to do. 1471 01:21:55.279 --> 01:21:58.000 So they were you know, like signing up for the 1472 01:21:58.079 --> 01:22:02.520 Lucky Mojor course, getting the textbook and plagiarizing it, or 1473 01:22:03.039 --> 01:22:05.560 getting the textbook, bailing from the course and setting up 1474 01:22:05.560 --> 01:22:09.680 a website announcing themselves as a spiritual worker. And I 1475 01:22:09.720 --> 01:22:11.359 was like, huh, funny, last week you were a high 1476 01:22:11.359 --> 01:22:16.319 priestess Evanana and now you're a spiritual worker. Interesting, but 1477 01:22:16.600 --> 01:22:18.479 that's where you know. Today we hear a lot about 1478 01:22:18.479 --> 01:22:21.920 cultural appropriation and the Pagans are very, you know, strong 1479 01:22:21.960 --> 01:22:24.760 fielding about cultural appropriation, but they don't really know what 1480 01:22:24.800 --> 01:22:29.600 it is and they choose not to remember actual appropriation 1481 01:22:29.720 --> 01:22:33.359 happening in real time. I may have gone a little 1482 01:22:33.600 --> 01:22:36.439 there ideo for that, I have strong feelings about it. 1483 01:22:38.920 --> 01:22:41.960 I think this is an interesting question. Sorry guys, but 1484 01:22:42.399 --> 01:22:44.079 do you think that what you're raising number is an 1485 01:22:44.079 --> 01:22:47.640 interesting question? Like what is cultural appropriation as it relates 1486 01:22:47.640 --> 01:22:51.239 to magic? Like for me personally, I'm mixed. I've grown 1487 01:22:51.479 --> 01:22:53.840 everybody knows I have grown up. I grew up in 1488 01:22:53.840 --> 01:22:58.159 Asia and Canada and the US, all three throughout my 1489 01:22:58.319 --> 01:23:02.560 entire life, and I'm by Raylf. So for me, I 1490 01:23:02.600 --> 01:23:06.439 don't personally believe in cultural appropriation as long as people 1491 01:23:06.479 --> 01:23:10.840 are approaching the system with just a general respect, as 1492 01:23:10.880 --> 01:23:13.920 you should with all magical things, and you're not taking 1493 01:23:13.960 --> 01:23:18.239 them outside of the context of which they are understood. 1494 01:23:18.359 --> 01:23:21.239 So I'm totally okay with people using different Obviously, that's 1495 01:23:21.319 --> 01:23:25.159 very chaos magic like using very like, you know, utilizing 1496 01:23:25.199 --> 01:23:27.600 the different methods like a honey jar is a great 1497 01:23:27.800 --> 01:23:31.600 wealth draw it's a great wealth tool that it shouldn't 1498 01:23:31.600 --> 01:23:33.760 just be like, oh, yeah, you can't use Hyjohn because 1499 01:23:33.760 --> 01:23:36.159 you're not from this thing. No, I mean I think 1500 01:23:36.159 --> 01:23:38.640 that you can. I just think that you should actually 1501 01:23:38.680 --> 01:23:41.479 know the story, like understand like Rayer Rabbit and the 1502 01:23:41.880 --> 01:23:44.960 you know, the whole mythology is behind it, both Native 1503 01:23:45.039 --> 01:23:48.000 and African American. I think that that's a really important 1504 01:23:48.079 --> 01:23:51.239 like the lore building. People forget about that, and I 1505 01:23:51.239 --> 01:23:53.000 think that's also what you're referring to when you're talking 1506 01:23:53.039 --> 01:23:55.760 about like the cultural amnesia. People have forgotten the lore. 1507 01:23:55.840 --> 01:23:58.479 But the lore is at least well, we'll say one tenth, 1508 01:23:58.479 --> 01:24:02.439 we'll say one magic number, one tenth of like all 1509 01:24:02.560 --> 01:24:04.600 kind of like and like the way that you build 1510 01:24:04.640 --> 01:24:06.479 your own paradigm. If you want to use a really 1511 01:24:06.600 --> 01:24:09.399 chaos magic kind of framework, you need the lore, like 1512 01:24:09.479 --> 01:24:12.720 you want to use forty K like the slaw Niche 1513 01:24:12.800 --> 01:24:15.560 and instead of eras and like all those like little 1514 01:24:15.640 --> 01:24:19.000 dudes like LDR's and all that. That's fine, but you 1515 01:24:19.079 --> 01:24:20.720 still have to know the lore and you have to 1516 01:24:20.760 --> 01:24:23.960 understand how like the classes and the systems and the 1517 01:24:24.000 --> 01:24:28.439 little you know, machine guns work properly, because it won't 1518 01:24:28.479 --> 01:24:30.479 really make sense. It's not a it has to have 1519 01:24:30.520 --> 01:24:34.800 an internal coherent logic. So I just I really, but 1520 01:24:34.880 --> 01:24:37.119 I think it's important to have the discussion because it 1521 01:24:37.119 --> 01:24:39.600 does come up a lot, like what is cultural appropriation 1522 01:24:39.720 --> 01:24:44.520 in magic? And like for me, I just think if 1523 01:24:44.520 --> 01:24:47.880 someone wants to pray to Green Tara, that's fine, that's great. 1524 01:24:47.960 --> 01:24:52.199 I highly think I think that's amazing, like because I 1525 01:24:52.199 --> 01:24:55.000 think it actually will start to transform their minds, even 1526 01:24:55.039 --> 01:24:58.359 if they don't think it will. It's just because everything 1527 01:24:58.439 --> 01:25:01.399 is so online, Like there's so much much information, Like 1528 01:25:01.439 --> 01:25:04.680 you can look up so much who do root work stuff? 1529 01:25:04.720 --> 01:25:07.119 You can work, look up you can go resor Neil 1530 01:25:07.439 --> 01:25:10.680 thir Hurston. I mean her book's really good if you 1531 01:25:10.760 --> 01:25:13.239 are just wanting to learn, like who do candle magic? 1532 01:25:13.319 --> 01:25:16.039 And like basic saint magic from like the Bahamas or 1533 01:25:16.079 --> 01:25:19.720 from Jamaica and how they were actually working. It's very basic. 1534 01:25:20.000 --> 01:25:22.479 I don't mean basic in like a a like a 1535 01:25:22.520 --> 01:25:24.680 bad way. I mean basic is in like the their 1536 01:25:24.760 --> 01:25:27.439 color correspondences are very different than the ones that people 1537 01:25:27.520 --> 01:25:31.359 normally use. Their saint correspondences are are different. But it's 1538 01:25:31.399 --> 01:25:36.479 just it's simple. It's like very it's householder, it's everyone 1539 01:25:36.560 --> 01:25:40.239 can actually access the technologies needed to do it. So 1540 01:25:40.359 --> 01:25:42.720 I think that there's a great system for especially for 1541 01:25:42.760 --> 01:25:45.720 American magicians since they're here on the land that is 1542 01:25:45.800 --> 01:25:49.119 like America, Like why not tap into that like greater 1543 01:25:49.279 --> 01:25:51.479 knowledge of root work. That's just my opinion, but you 1544 01:25:51.520 --> 01:25:54.159 can definitely number. You can feel free to disagree or 1545 01:25:54.199 --> 01:25:55.159 anything you want to say. 1546 01:25:57.640 --> 01:26:01.880 I agree, especially when you said context because when it 1547 01:26:01.880 --> 01:26:06.000 comes to cultural corporation, context is key. The way I 1548 01:26:06.079 --> 01:26:09.760 define cultural corporation is, first of all, it's not really 1549 01:26:09.800 --> 01:26:14.680 something one person does by themselves, unless you're going but 1550 01:26:14.800 --> 01:26:17.600 for the most part, it is it is something that 1551 01:26:17.960 --> 01:26:20.960 is cultural, like that is a group that is a 1552 01:26:21.000 --> 01:26:25.359 group is doing, so I define it as cultural corporation 1553 01:26:25.479 --> 01:26:32.039 occurs when a dominant group adopts the traditions or fashions, 1554 01:26:32.119 --> 01:26:37.479 or music or magical practices of a marginalized group, takes 1555 01:26:37.520 --> 01:26:42.039 those things out of context and then either prevents the 1556 01:26:42.079 --> 01:26:45.399 marginalized group from having access to those things, condemns the 1557 01:26:45.439 --> 01:26:50.119 marginalized group for continuing to practice those things, or pretends 1558 01:26:50.119 --> 01:26:53.000 that the marginalized or that those things did not originate 1559 01:26:53.039 --> 01:26:57.039 within the marginalized group. So it's it's a complete It 1560 01:26:57.079 --> 01:27:00.560 has to do with the removing the context when in 1561 01:27:00.600 --> 01:27:04.239 regards to paganism and who do you know, folk magic 1562 01:27:04.239 --> 01:27:07.119 in general and witchcraft and these things, you know, always 1563 01:27:07.119 --> 01:27:09.279 have fuzzy edges. Things are going to drift in from 1564 01:27:09.319 --> 01:27:13.560 folk matt from one one regional folk magic practice to 1565 01:27:13.680 --> 01:27:17.199 him other. Like four thieves vinegar pops up in folk 1566 01:27:17.239 --> 01:27:22.159 magic across the US, and it's an old Renaissance Italian 1567 01:27:22.159 --> 01:27:26.279 health tonic that's used in magic in the US today. 1568 01:27:26.319 --> 01:27:30.880 But the it's like something like a sour jar is 1569 01:27:30.920 --> 01:27:34.039 a really good idea or what people talk about return 1570 01:27:34.079 --> 01:27:37.920 to send your spells right now. Those are things that 1571 01:27:38.680 --> 01:27:43.720 originated within the multiple practices of marginalized groups. So when 1572 01:27:43.760 --> 01:27:47.760 somebody says, you know, this road opener spell is ancient 1573 01:27:47.760 --> 01:27:50.560 traditional witchcraft, no it's not. That's not where it can 1574 01:27:50.720 --> 01:27:53.159 It did not come from Europe, you know, the which 1575 01:27:53.239 --> 01:27:56.800 is the old European witches were not casting their road 1576 01:27:56.840 --> 01:27:59.680 opener spells and their return to sender spells. Those are 1577 01:27:59.680 --> 01:28:03.640 things that came out of the faulk magic of marginalized groups. 1578 01:28:03.640 --> 01:28:06.600 But we are pretending that it's ancient traditional witchcraft that 1579 01:28:06.680 --> 01:28:10.359 is appropriative the fact that all these Pagans swooped in 1580 01:28:10.359 --> 01:28:15.479 and started incorporating who do into their practices, but taking 1581 01:28:15.520 --> 01:28:17.720 it out of the context of African American fault magic, 1582 01:28:17.920 --> 01:28:21.239 disregarding the lore behind it, and just rebranding it as 1583 01:28:21.279 --> 01:28:25.159 witchcraft is appropriative. And it wasn't just one person doing it. 1584 01:28:25.159 --> 01:28:26.920 It was one. 1585 01:28:26.760 --> 01:28:30.039 Community descending it to another community and taking everything to 1586 01:28:30.039 --> 01:28:37.600 make that's one person. Like if I were to go 1587 01:28:37.720 --> 01:28:39.359 pick up a book on Hudu and flip through it 1588 01:28:39.399 --> 01:28:42.079 and be like, oh, hey, a freezer spyle, I want 1589 01:28:42.079 --> 01:28:44.960 to give that a shot. That's not appropriative, right, That's 1590 01:28:45.000 --> 01:28:48.560 just me trying something in my kitchen. But if I 1591 01:28:48.600 --> 01:28:50.239 were to make a TikTok video and say today we're 1592 01:28:50.239 --> 01:28:52.720 going to talk about the ancient traditional European witchcraft of 1593 01:28:52.720 --> 01:28:55.520 freezer spells, I've taken the freezer spell out of its 1594 01:28:55.560 --> 01:28:58.880 context and I'm claiming ownership of it, and I'm disregarding 1595 01:28:58.880 --> 01:29:02.239 where it came from. 1596 01:29:01.079 --> 01:29:01.279 You know. 1597 01:29:01.439 --> 01:29:06.159 And the big thing with with the kids today, with 1598 01:29:06.199 --> 01:29:09.159 their with their blue hair and their pronouns, I'm two 1599 01:29:09.479 --> 01:29:13.239 genics for my own good is you know, they think 1600 01:29:13.239 --> 01:29:16.760 of wick as cultural appropriation. They don't know why wickeed 1601 01:29:16.840 --> 01:29:19.439 is cultural appropriation. They have just decided that Wicket is 1602 01:29:19.439 --> 01:29:23.760 the source of the cultural appropriation because that way, especially 1603 01:29:23.760 --> 01:29:26.680 since so many occult practitioners and online spaces are of 1604 01:29:26.720 --> 01:29:31.520 European descent, it makes it's a way of absolving themselves 1605 01:29:31.520 --> 01:29:35.039 of anything wickeds appropriate. I'm not wicked, so I'm not 1606 01:29:35.119 --> 01:29:39.760 capable of doing that, and by doing that, they are 1607 01:29:39.880 --> 01:29:44.800 ignoring their own appropriated behaviors and inclinations, and they're not 1608 01:29:44.800 --> 01:29:46.560 realizing that it's not a wicked problem. It is a 1609 01:29:46.560 --> 01:29:54.159 white people problem. Again with the rants, I sometimes about 1610 01:29:54.159 --> 01:29:55.840 things too well, it's. 1611 01:29:56.319 --> 01:29:57.000 The dice. 1612 01:29:58.680 --> 01:29:59.079 Online. 1613 01:29:59.079 --> 01:30:02.319 I don't go to those, and I do have a 1614 01:30:02.520 --> 01:30:07.640 pagan background Wiccan background, so I'm kind of surprised that 1615 01:30:08.640 --> 01:30:11.039 maybe it's the newer what they call the baby witches 1616 01:30:11.560 --> 01:30:16.319 go into these spaces because you mentioned earlier that you 1617 01:30:16.479 --> 01:30:24.720 are initiated into I want to say Alexandrian or Gardenerian Gardenerian. 1618 01:30:25.119 --> 01:30:27.920 I'm sorry I always mix the two up. I do apologize, 1619 01:30:28.439 --> 01:30:33.520 but within WICCA and Paganism, you do have that initia 1620 01:30:33.920 --> 01:30:37.039 that you know, you go through initiations too, and you 1621 01:30:37.119 --> 01:30:40.239 have to keep your ols. So I'm trying to figure 1622 01:30:40.279 --> 01:30:43.640 out why do they think it's okay because a lot 1623 01:30:43.680 --> 01:30:51.119 of those Caribbean religions are also initiatory and they also 1624 01:30:51.199 --> 01:30:54.640 have their secrets to just dive in there, and they're 1625 01:30:54.680 --> 01:30:56.840 not as nice as the Wicked community. I'm just going 1626 01:30:56.880 --> 01:30:59.239 to say it that way and just grab the stuff 1627 01:31:00.319 --> 01:31:05.520 and say it's ours. And there's a lot of habits. 1628 01:31:05.560 --> 01:31:07.680 I guess I haven't been around to see because I've 1629 01:31:07.680 --> 01:31:09.800 been doing my own work that. 1630 01:31:11.159 --> 01:31:12.039 This whole discussion. 1631 01:31:12.439 --> 01:31:14.840 I'm like, Oh, as a ceremonial magician, I used to 1632 01:31:14.880 --> 01:31:18.680 try these techniques, so they were familiar to me. So 1633 01:31:18.720 --> 01:31:21.000 I'm like, where's a chaos part? But if that's what 1634 01:31:21.039 --> 01:31:22.319 they're calling chaos magic. 1635 01:31:24.359 --> 01:31:29.079 Within online spaces, especially online and cult spaces, terms get trendy, 1636 01:31:29.199 --> 01:31:34.279 ideas get trendy, and people have a tendency of adopting 1637 01:31:34.319 --> 01:31:37.920 those terms without understanding where they come from. So the 1638 01:31:38.000 --> 01:31:40.840 idea of chaos magic got popular for a while and 1639 01:31:40.880 --> 01:31:42.800 people were like, oh, I I got it, but they 1640 01:31:42.840 --> 01:31:46.159 didn't have the context, so they just thought chaos meant 1641 01:31:46.159 --> 01:31:50.279 some sloppy and disciplined and crazy and like fly by 1642 01:31:50.319 --> 01:31:56.359 the seat of your pants. In the late nineties. By 1643 01:31:56.359 --> 01:31:58.520 the late nineties, WICKA was starting to get very trendy. 1644 01:32:00.079 --> 01:32:02.720 Most modern Pagans was in the US sort of like 1645 01:32:02.920 --> 01:32:05.720 you know this, this witchcraft came over from England to 1646 01:32:05.800 --> 01:32:10.760 New York, the term Wicca started coming into use. The 1647 01:32:10.760 --> 01:32:13.119 modern pagan community kind of grew out of the Wicked 1648 01:32:13.159 --> 01:32:16.960 community and developed at something. Wicca itself tended to evolve 1649 01:32:16.960 --> 01:32:21.000 where there's Gardnerian and Alexandrian, but non initiatory. Wicked became 1650 01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:26.039 in saying eclectic. Wicca became a thing, and by the 1651 01:32:26.119 --> 01:32:28.680 nineties this idea of wick it was very trendy. The 1652 01:32:28.760 --> 01:32:31.439 New Age industry kind of jumped on it and started 1653 01:32:32.359 --> 01:32:34.000 calling a kind of a whole lot of stuff that 1654 01:32:34.079 --> 01:32:38.359 wasn't really wick and wicked, you know, or just sort 1655 01:32:38.399 --> 01:32:42.800 of kind of just processing wicca along with an amalgamation 1656 01:32:42.840 --> 01:32:45.520 of a whole bunch of different ideas, usually Eastern ideas 1657 01:32:46.880 --> 01:32:51.279 and Hinduism, and sort of using Wicca as like the 1658 01:32:51.359 --> 01:32:54.119 type face on the packaging for back they were saying it. 1659 01:32:54.960 --> 01:32:59.039 So younger occultists today who don't know the history of 1660 01:32:59.039 --> 01:33:01.760 Wicked and don't realize there was a whole that there 1661 01:33:01.760 --> 01:33:05.720 were generations of Wickans before the New Age Wicca of 1662 01:33:05.760 --> 01:33:08.960 the early two thousands see that, and they think that's 1663 01:33:09.000 --> 01:33:11.319 all Wicke is. And they pick up a book on 1664 01:33:11.359 --> 01:33:13.479 Wicca and I'm paraphrasing a lot of things there, but 1665 01:33:13.479 --> 01:33:15.720 they pick up a book on Wicca, they open it up, 1666 01:33:15.880 --> 01:33:18.199 they see the mention of white sage and they go, 1667 01:33:18.560 --> 01:33:24.640 this is cultural appropriation. And because white white sage is 1668 01:33:24.640 --> 01:33:28.119 a closed practice, white sage is a plant. The religious 1669 01:33:28.199 --> 01:33:33.319 use of white white stage is part of a closed community. 1670 01:33:34.720 --> 01:33:37.800 But there's this idea that well, that this is appropriation, 1671 01:33:37.840 --> 01:33:41.119 which is just appropriation. But because they don't know the 1672 01:33:41.159 --> 01:33:44.720 history of their practices, they don't realize that a lot 1673 01:33:44.760 --> 01:33:49.119 of their own practices are rooted in Wicca, and that 1674 01:33:49.399 --> 01:33:53.479 you know that the modern pagan movement is the holidays 1675 01:33:53.600 --> 01:33:56.039 and the Wheel of the Year and the ritual practices 1676 01:33:56.199 --> 01:33:58.760 and the four Elements and the ritual knife and blessed 1677 01:33:58.800 --> 01:34:03.039 b all of that came from Wicca, and they don't 1678 01:34:03.079 --> 01:34:06.159 realize it. So they are still practicing Wicked today while 1679 01:34:06.199 --> 01:34:09.039 condemning Wicca for being something that they refused to identify 1680 01:34:09.119 --> 01:34:14.399 as it's a it's a it's a strange space. I 1681 01:34:14.479 --> 01:34:17.039 was not online for about ten years. I was doing 1682 01:34:17.039 --> 01:34:20.920 other stuff and I left online space with when everybody 1683 01:34:20.960 --> 01:34:23.640 was like, we're wicked. We came back on and everybody 1684 01:34:23.680 --> 01:34:24.880 was condemning Wika, and I was like. 1685 01:34:25.359 --> 01:34:29.279 Miss something that I had noticed, Like I guess kind 1686 01:34:29.279 --> 01:34:31.039 of with the chaos magic first off, a lot of 1687 01:34:31.079 --> 01:34:33.079 the I'm just gonna keep it real, a lot of 1688 01:34:33.079 --> 01:34:36.399 the younger crowd just seemed to have like kind of 1689 01:34:36.479 --> 01:34:38.479 like just kind. 1690 01:34:38.279 --> 01:34:39.079 Of screwed that up. 1691 01:34:39.119 --> 01:34:41.159 And then but also and I. 1692 01:34:41.039 --> 01:34:42.920 And I think because it just seemed to resonate one 1693 01:34:42.960 --> 01:34:45.279 with the other, I also noticed a lot of people 1694 01:34:45.319 --> 01:34:47.479 then gravitating towards like, well, I'm going to be into 1695 01:34:47.560 --> 01:34:49.920 like Thelma because I could take do what that will 1696 01:34:50.119 --> 01:34:52.880 fuck that off just as much as I'm fucking off 1697 01:34:52.920 --> 01:34:55.039 the idea of chaos magic. And it all basically comes 1698 01:34:55.039 --> 01:34:56.479 down to I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want 1699 01:34:56.520 --> 01:34:58.720 when I want, you know what I'm saying. And it's 1700 01:34:58.760 --> 01:35:00.680 just like I did notice even like a lot of 1701 01:35:00.680 --> 01:35:03.319 that even happening with the misunderstanding of both. It's like 1702 01:35:03.359 --> 01:35:05.680 somehow it's amazing how they I just noticed a lot 1703 01:35:05.680 --> 01:35:07.600 of them kind of come together or a lot of 1704 01:35:07.680 --> 01:35:10.279 chaos magicians would have like athleenic edge to them. 1705 01:35:10.560 --> 01:35:13.000 I just sawt in seeing this was like a thing. 1706 01:35:13.600 --> 01:35:15.039 You know, at one point. 1707 01:35:15.159 --> 01:35:17.720 There are trends within occult spaces, just like there are 1708 01:35:17.760 --> 01:35:24.920 anywhere else, and it, you know, there is the chaos. 1709 01:35:25.079 --> 01:35:28.840 The trend of chast witchcraft or chass magic tends to 1710 01:35:28.880 --> 01:35:32.399 be evening out a little bit. I think the reason 1711 01:35:32.439 --> 01:35:36.960 why there was such a sudden interest in it again 1712 01:35:37.000 --> 01:35:40.560 has to do with pop culture because in by the 1713 01:35:40.600 --> 01:35:43.399 mid eighties in England, people were writing about the death 1714 01:35:43.439 --> 01:35:46.880 of chaos magic, that this is all coming to an end, 1715 01:35:47.199 --> 01:35:50.520 like the paradigm is over. And then suddenly in the 1716 01:35:50.560 --> 01:35:53.279 mid mid to light two thousands people have this renewed 1717 01:35:53.279 --> 01:35:56.920 interest and it has to do with Marvel Comics because 1718 01:35:57.239 --> 01:36:00.000 the character of the Scarlet Witch, who's this you know, 1719 01:36:00.119 --> 01:36:04.319 kind of cor avenger. Her power set was redefined and 1720 01:36:04.600 --> 01:36:08.359 was and somebody at Marvel picked up the term chaos magic. 1721 01:36:09.000 --> 01:36:11.800 So the term chast magic started getting into everybody's head again. 1722 01:36:12.520 --> 01:36:16.479 And then the Scarlet which was incorporated into the cinematic universe. 1723 01:36:16.920 --> 01:36:21.600 There was the One Division limited seriesies and there's this 1724 01:36:21.720 --> 01:36:25.520 idea which is a chaos magic. And suddenly in online 1725 01:36:25.520 --> 01:36:27.399 spaces you see all these kids going, I'm a. 1726 01:36:27.439 --> 01:36:32.119 Chast witch and they don't know about history of cast magic. 1727 01:36:32.239 --> 01:36:35.399 They don't you know, they don't understand the idea of 1728 01:36:35.399 --> 01:36:37.239 of principle or discipline or all these things that are 1729 01:36:37.279 --> 01:36:40.279 kind of inherent to cast magic. They just know the 1730 01:36:40.399 --> 01:36:43.479 term and it resonates with them, but they don't realize 1731 01:36:43.520 --> 01:36:45.239 how it got into their heads in the first place. 1732 01:36:46.960 --> 01:36:48.640 And it's not about that it came. 1733 01:36:48.520 --> 01:36:50.960 From pop culture, but it's like it should be acknowledged. 1734 01:36:52.319 --> 01:36:56.520 I think also you have the uh hundred million culture 1735 01:36:57.000 --> 01:36:59.840 in William Burrow's kind of being a big promoter of 1736 01:37:00.039 --> 01:37:04.399 chaos magic with this cut up method. And yeah, he 1737 01:37:04.520 --> 01:37:11.199 writes about in the was it the Reds series? He 1738 01:37:11.560 --> 01:37:13.800 wrote there at the end, you know. 1739 01:37:14.319 --> 01:37:17.640 Yeah that And I mean I think I feel like 1740 01:37:17.680 --> 01:37:20.760 I talk about it all the time, but Grant Morrison 1741 01:37:21.239 --> 01:37:26.960 and The Invisibles was the he just like exploded chaos 1742 01:37:26.960 --> 01:37:29.720 magic all over everyone's face, if you know what I'm saying. 1743 01:37:29.800 --> 01:37:32.359 And it's like that is one of the main reasons 1744 01:37:32.359 --> 01:37:38.720 he even using certain ecstatic disciplines to make sure his 1745 01:37:38.800 --> 01:37:43.199 comic book series even was able to continue or very 1746 01:37:43.359 --> 01:37:46.039 you know, it's very chaos magic. I find it fascinating 1747 01:37:46.079 --> 01:37:50.680 to think that chaos magic itself seems to be quite appropriating, 1748 01:37:50.960 --> 01:37:53.600 you know what I mean. Like it's basically having the 1749 01:37:53.680 --> 01:37:57.960 ability to take from all these places, put it together 1750 01:37:58.039 --> 01:38:01.279 and then be all like, I don't like structure, and 1751 01:38:01.359 --> 01:38:03.239 I don't like any of these things, and yet I'm 1752 01:38:03.279 --> 01:38:07.039 gonna take all these structoral practices and put it in 1753 01:38:06.640 --> 01:38:09.720 a frickin boiling pod and call it magic. And I'm 1754 01:38:09.760 --> 01:38:13.640 not hating, but I'm just saying, it's a fascinating thing. 1755 01:38:13.479 --> 01:38:16.239 With our culture this day. 1756 01:38:17.239 --> 01:38:18.880 It's a really good example of what he called He 1757 01:38:18.920 --> 01:38:22.199 coined the term hyper syndrome, which is sigil that moves 1758 01:38:22.199 --> 01:38:22.600 through time. 1759 01:38:23.319 --> 01:38:24.800 So a story, a. 1760 01:38:24.800 --> 01:38:29.199 Play, a movie, you know, any kind of visual art like, 1761 01:38:30.439 --> 01:38:34.560 it's a sigil that is is continually moving forward and 1762 01:38:34.640 --> 01:38:37.479 changing things as it moves through time. And with The 1763 01:38:37.479 --> 01:38:41.439 Invisible specifically, he really tied that storyline to himself and 1764 01:38:41.520 --> 01:38:44.439 works that he was trying to do, and as the 1765 01:38:44.560 --> 01:38:48.079 one character in specific in particular within The Invisibles start, 1766 01:38:48.119 --> 01:38:50.319 he started writing the character having health problems, and he 1767 01:38:50.359 --> 01:38:51.760 developed all those health problems. 1768 01:38:52.479 --> 01:38:56.520 Yes, that's why he so Graham Morrison dressed up with 1769 01:38:56.920 --> 01:39:00.279 all leather bald Head designed his character to be like 1770 01:39:00.319 --> 01:39:01.800 that and all of a sudden, He's like, I want 1771 01:39:01.800 --> 01:39:03.399 my character to fall in love with a bunch of 1772 01:39:03.439 --> 01:39:04.199 hot redheads. 1773 01:39:04.239 --> 01:39:06.960 And so in his life came a bunch of hot redheads. 1774 01:39:07.279 --> 01:39:10.520 And I think it's really fascinating to see the dangers 1775 01:39:10.840 --> 01:39:14.039 of these things because he started not ever having to 1776 01:39:14.079 --> 01:39:19.239 have a real relationship because he didn't understand the underpinnings 1777 01:39:19.239 --> 01:39:22.399 of how magic works. It's like, you can, unless you're descriptive, 1778 01:39:22.600 --> 01:39:24.319 You're just gonna get a bunch of hot red heads 1779 01:39:24.319 --> 01:39:25.680 who are going to run all over your heart and 1780 01:39:25.720 --> 01:39:28.199 then fall away eventually. And then, Yeah, he hurt himself 1781 01:39:28.199 --> 01:39:30.159 in the comic, and then he hurt himself there, thus 1782 01:39:30.159 --> 01:39:32.600 saying I will never hurt myself again in the comic 1783 01:39:33.159 --> 01:39:34.680 because I don't want to be in the hospital for 1784 01:39:34.680 --> 01:39:36.279 the last week Mark. 1785 01:39:36.840 --> 01:39:38.760 I was going to say, Philip K. 1786 01:39:38.880 --> 01:39:39.079 Dick. 1787 01:39:39.159 --> 01:39:42.199 He also wrote himself into his work and into balance. 1788 01:39:42.279 --> 01:39:44.840 That's in exactly how he was going to die. Yeah, 1789 01:39:45.119 --> 01:39:48.640 and so you know, when you're using these mechanisms, these 1790 01:39:48.760 --> 01:39:53.039 vehicles of the creative force, you really have to be 1791 01:39:53.159 --> 01:39:56.640 aware of the intensity and the power that they possess. 1792 01:39:57.399 --> 01:40:03.239 Yeah, this magician named our culture Aiden Walker, who in 1793 01:40:03.319 --> 01:40:06.119 one of his books, and they cannot remember that changing 1794 01:40:06.159 --> 01:40:08.079 fate or tempting fate, something about fate. 1795 01:40:08.399 --> 01:40:09.840 Weaving fate is the name of the book. 1796 01:40:10.520 --> 01:40:18.079 And he presents a hypersential idea with journal where he 1797 01:40:18.319 --> 01:40:21.079 incorporates some folk matchic ideas, and there's like you get 1798 01:40:21.079 --> 01:40:22.479 your books that you're going to write in and you 1799 01:40:22.520 --> 01:40:24.760 go to the Crossroads at midnight and some of the 1800 01:40:24.760 --> 01:40:25.840 Devil and. 1801 01:40:25.880 --> 01:40:26.520 It's the whole thing. 1802 01:40:27.640 --> 01:40:31.600 But then you treat that book like your diary basically, 1803 01:40:32.319 --> 01:40:35.159 and every day you come home and you write about 1804 01:40:35.159 --> 01:40:38.199 your day, but you write about your day as if 1805 01:40:38.239 --> 01:40:41.359 you were living the life that you actually won. So 1806 01:40:41.479 --> 01:40:43.680 like if I really wanted to be a flight attendant 1807 01:40:43.880 --> 01:40:47.039 and come home from my retail management job and be like, man, 1808 01:40:47.119 --> 01:40:49.479 today was really rough at the airline, but this worked 1809 01:40:49.479 --> 01:40:50.920 out well and I got to meet all these great 1810 01:40:50.920 --> 01:40:53.600 people on the flight. And this flight was delayed, but 1811 01:40:53.600 --> 01:40:55.319 we ended up getting to go to this other destination. 1812 01:40:55.840 --> 01:40:59.279 And so you're, basically he calls it telling true lies. 1813 01:40:59.880 --> 01:41:03.399 You're you're writing the life you want as if it 1814 01:41:03.439 --> 01:41:07.640 was already happening, which is I think where one thing 1815 01:41:07.680 --> 01:41:11.399 about that differentiates chaos magic is there is you know 1816 01:41:11.520 --> 01:41:13.319 there is the fuck around, but there is definitely the 1817 01:41:13.399 --> 01:41:15.640 find out and we tend to learn on lessons that way. 1818 01:41:16.279 --> 01:41:18.640 So we look at the hypercentials of Grant Morrison and 1819 01:41:18.640 --> 01:41:22.279 Philip K. Dick and the effects that those hyperstentials had 1820 01:41:22.279 --> 01:41:24.880 on their health and well being, and then we look 1821 01:41:24.920 --> 01:41:30.039 at Aiden Walker's Walker's hypercentual, which is, I've learned lessons 1822 01:41:30.039 --> 01:41:31.880 from what they went through, and so we're not going 1823 01:41:31.920 --> 01:41:33.159 to do it that way. We're going to do it 1824 01:41:33.159 --> 01:41:37.479 in a way that benefits us and doesn't injo ourselves 1825 01:41:37.560 --> 01:41:39.359 or ruin our life lives. 1826 01:41:40.439 --> 01:41:43.079 Uh, Thumper, was there a Is there anything that you 1827 01:41:43.079 --> 01:41:44.199 would like to add about your mom? 1828 01:41:44.359 --> 01:41:44.760 Anybody? 1829 01:41:46.680 --> 01:41:46.880 You know? 1830 01:41:47.119 --> 01:41:50.880 I I've actually had a blast night and I feel like. 1831 01:41:52.680 --> 01:41:52.760 That. 1832 01:41:52.880 --> 01:41:54.960 I don't know if I have anything else I want 1833 01:41:55.079 --> 01:41:59.680 to add. 1834 01:41:59.199 --> 01:41:59.960 I will I say. 1835 01:42:00.119 --> 01:42:01.640 The only thing that I would say about the book 1836 01:42:01.680 --> 01:42:06.880 itself is that, to quote Phil hein the cast edition, 1837 01:42:06.880 --> 01:42:11.800 Phil high magic should be fun and so if and 1838 01:42:11.840 --> 01:42:15.640 when people get a hold of the chaos Apple approach 1839 01:42:15.720 --> 01:42:20.199 it as a tool to have fun with, you know, 1840 01:42:20.479 --> 01:42:23.039 like like the spells in the book, the experiments in 1841 01:42:23.079 --> 01:42:27.960 the book. I would like people to take an enjoyment 1842 01:42:27.960 --> 01:42:31.279 of magical practice out of it, So I hope that's 1843 01:42:31.279 --> 01:42:32.279 what people get out of it. 1844 01:42:32.920 --> 01:42:37.439 I love it. I had a lot of fun for real. Yeah, 1845 01:42:37.439 --> 01:42:39.439 and I guess, I guess we'll wrap it up. I 1846 01:42:39.479 --> 01:42:42.960 honestly can't think of anything else bredon. Please let everybody 1847 01:42:42.960 --> 01:42:44.079 know where they can fund your stuff. 1848 01:42:44.439 --> 01:42:49.319 Ohy, great, thank you, Thank you Thumper. Great to meet 1849 01:42:49.439 --> 01:42:55.840 you everyone, Golden Chaos Apple, make sure it doesn't create chaos. 1850 01:42:56.079 --> 01:42:58.520 Figure it out. Read the book. He's probably got it 1851 01:42:58.560 --> 01:43:00.560 in there. And how are you gonna walk through the 1852 01:43:00.640 --> 01:43:03.800 chaos with a light step and a smile on your face? 1853 01:43:05.079 --> 01:43:08.960 And always Nick, thank you for having me on. I 1854 01:43:09.159 --> 01:43:12.600 love these conversations. This is how we meet new people, 1855 01:43:12.680 --> 01:43:15.439 and we are trying to find our way through this 1856 01:43:15.520 --> 01:43:18.600 ocean of chaos. Head on over to megas in the 1857 01:43:18.640 --> 01:43:22.239 media because you should already be subscribed. 1858 01:43:22.800 --> 01:43:23.560 That's all I got. 1859 01:43:23.680 --> 01:43:25.720 Just go over to Instagram, go over to x make 1860 01:43:25.760 --> 01:43:28.399 sure you follow every one of these people on this panel. 1861 01:43:28.640 --> 01:43:32.239 We're trying to find myth, meaning and magic in this strange, 1862 01:43:32.319 --> 01:43:35.800 chaotic world. Again, thank you Thumper, and I love everybody 1863 01:43:35.800 --> 01:43:36.399 on this panel. 1864 01:43:36.399 --> 01:43:36.920 Thank you guys. 1865 01:43:37.720 --> 01:43:38.880 Yeah, thank you for joining us. 1866 01:43:38.960 --> 01:43:39.640 I really appreciate it. 1867 01:43:39.680 --> 01:43:43.000 Thank you for doing the man, appreciate it anytime. 1868 01:43:43.439 --> 01:43:47.720 Hell yeah, please let everybody know what's up with you. 1869 01:43:47.840 --> 01:43:49.760 What's up with all of your all the stuff that 1870 01:43:49.760 --> 01:43:54.439 you would do that you do well, your endeavors. You 1871 01:43:54.560 --> 01:43:58.680 muted who's that jin Oh? 1872 01:43:58.760 --> 01:44:02.279 Sorry, boss, I was I didn't hear who you said. 1873 01:44:02.279 --> 01:44:04.560 I thought it was Judith. I was like, in my mind, 1874 01:44:04.600 --> 01:44:06.800 I was like, okay, I apologize. That's so my bad. 1875 01:44:07.279 --> 01:44:10.960 So thank you, Brandon. That was a really awesome both 1876 01:44:11.000 --> 01:44:15.039 intro and outro little bars you dropped. So thank you. 1877 01:44:15.039 --> 01:44:18.000 You're making me kind of look like a side as 1878 01:44:18.159 --> 01:44:19.680 like the side piece to the show. 1879 01:44:19.760 --> 01:44:19.960 Now. 1880 01:44:20.000 --> 01:44:22.600 I was never want to ask me to do the 1881 01:44:22.640 --> 01:44:30.239 intro again anyway. Brand and are actually friends. Just like, 1882 01:44:30.399 --> 01:44:33.840 just keep that in mind everybody listening. We really are friends. 1883 01:44:34.520 --> 01:44:37.039 So thank you so much, Thumper. It was honestly a 1884 01:44:37.119 --> 01:44:39.199 huge like, it was like really cool to do this. 1885 01:44:39.680 --> 01:44:44.239 I re released. Unfortunately last year almost at this time 1886 01:44:44.319 --> 01:44:46.760 last year, one of the boys who I did the 1887 01:44:47.600 --> 01:44:50.760 five part the first series on Tracy Twyman, not on 1888 01:44:50.760 --> 01:44:53.680 her biography but on the metaphysics of her work. We 1889 01:44:53.720 --> 01:44:55.960 did a five part series. Unfortunately, one of the boys 1890 01:44:55.960 --> 01:44:58.840 passed away around this time last year, so I re 1891 01:44:58.840 --> 01:45:01.760 released his episode, gave it some new art, new Keno, 1892 01:45:02.319 --> 01:45:05.239 new hyper sigil, and I just dropped it on IG 1893 01:45:05.600 --> 01:45:08.319 and X so people. I encourage people to check it out. 1894 01:45:08.319 --> 01:45:11.119 It's my third episode I ever recorded on my show 1895 01:45:11.479 --> 01:45:14.560 and I love Zach, so shout out Zach RP my brother, 1896 01:45:14.720 --> 01:45:18.000 and people can check me out on Twitter at Wukanrieborn 1897 01:45:18.119 --> 01:45:21.520 w uk oh and g Reborn or on at Threshold Saints, 1898 01:45:21.520 --> 01:45:25.800 which is both for IG and Twitter and of course substack. 1899 01:45:25.880 --> 01:45:27.680 And you can check out all of our Gray Lodge 1900 01:45:27.680 --> 01:45:30.600 work at the True Gray Lodge dot com t r 1901 01:45:30.920 --> 01:45:34.880 ve gray Lodge dot com because it's plus ultra all 1902 01:45:34.920 --> 01:45:38.199 the way up. And yeah, thank you guys so much. 1903 01:45:38.239 --> 01:45:44.119 I appreciate it, Brandon, of course, Robbie, Judith and mister 1904 01:45:44.199 --> 01:45:47.960 ninety three Nick and of course Thumper awesome show rock 1905 01:45:48.039 --> 01:45:48.760 on guys. 1906 01:45:49.279 --> 01:45:50.920 Yeah, that was a blessed and thank you very much 1907 01:45:50.920 --> 01:45:51.359 for making it. 1908 01:45:51.399 --> 01:45:52.640 Jen, I really appreciate it. 1909 01:45:53.560 --> 01:45:56.640 And Robbie Marx what is all. Please let everybody know 1910 01:45:56.640 --> 01:45:57.960 where they can find your great stuff. 1911 01:45:58.600 --> 01:46:00.479 It was great hanging out with everybody of the old 1912 01:46:00.520 --> 01:46:02.319 faces and the new faces. Good to meet you. 1913 01:46:02.399 --> 01:46:02.720 Thumper. 1914 01:46:04.119 --> 01:46:08.079 As far as my work, I'm currently working on illustrations 1915 01:46:08.079 --> 01:46:11.000 from my Memrod book, which I got about eight or 1916 01:46:11.079 --> 01:46:14.760 nine of them complete. And then if you want to 1917 01:46:14.800 --> 01:46:17.079 check out my various works, you can go to my 1918 01:46:17.119 --> 01:46:19.560 link tree which is link tree r M r X 1919 01:46:19.920 --> 01:46:22.520 and you can find my metamind cast there which I 1920 01:46:22.680 --> 01:46:26.399 just did an episode on learning to Lucid Dream. I 1921 01:46:26.520 --> 01:46:30.359 just released an episode on the creation of the human 1922 01:46:30.439 --> 01:46:33.560 in the demon Haunted World, and then the one this 1923 01:46:33.600 --> 01:46:38.760 week was the bloodline of the first Divine Couple leading 1924 01:46:38.800 --> 01:46:41.920 into the Secrets of Enoch. So go over there and 1925 01:46:42.039 --> 01:46:45.479 check out my link tree and all the things that 1926 01:46:45.520 --> 01:46:48.800 I have to offer. And again, Nick, I appreciate it 1927 01:46:48.840 --> 01:46:49.479 as always. 1928 01:46:49.560 --> 01:46:50.359 Thanks. 1929 01:46:50.720 --> 01:46:53.800 I always appreciate you here, Robbie, thank you very much. 1930 01:46:54.359 --> 01:46:57.640 And last but not least, Judith please let him aright. 1931 01:46:57.439 --> 01:47:01.720 Know, thank you for having me. Brandon. You're gonna have 1932 01:47:01.760 --> 01:47:03.600 to teach me how to do an intro like you do. 1933 01:47:04.239 --> 01:47:05.159 It is awesome. 1934 01:47:08.640 --> 01:47:12.119 It's been a pleasure again, Jen every time. 1935 01:47:12.880 --> 01:47:13.239 Robbie. 1936 01:47:13.239 --> 01:47:15.359 This is the second time I've been with you, so 1937 01:47:15.800 --> 01:47:19.960 it's a pleasure. Thumper, thank you so much. I am 1938 01:47:20.039 --> 01:47:23.720 actually going to get your book because from what Nick 1939 01:47:23.760 --> 01:47:27.760 has said so far. I like your format the way 1940 01:47:27.800 --> 01:47:31.760 you present it, and I don't think you realize you 1941 01:47:31.840 --> 01:47:33.920 also add a little element because I got to read 1942 01:47:33.920 --> 01:47:36.720 the little intro a little bit of discernment in there, 1943 01:47:37.399 --> 01:47:40.680 uh to warm to advise people that use that. So 1944 01:47:41.079 --> 01:47:45.720 I'm looking forward to that and anyone else. You could 1945 01:47:45.720 --> 01:47:49.239 find me on YouTube and on x as the Loon 1946 01:47:49.880 --> 01:47:57.680 and I do more self awareness, more mindfulness and working 1947 01:47:57.720 --> 01:47:59.800 on yourself before you start taking work like this. 1948 01:48:01.439 --> 01:48:05.439 Thank you, Thank you very much, Judith. I really appreciate 1949 01:48:05.479 --> 01:48:06.079 you making it here. 1950 01:48:06.720 --> 01:48:09.399 And h thump please if you want to let everybody 1951 01:48:09.439 --> 01:48:11.359 know what's up, let them know where you can find 1952 01:48:11.399 --> 01:48:12.920 anything usage want to promote. 1953 01:48:12.600 --> 01:48:13.039 And the mook. 1954 01:48:14.399 --> 01:48:16.439 Okay, well, first of all, thank you guys so much 1955 01:48:16.439 --> 01:48:19.479 for having me I had last. I tend not to 1956 01:48:19.479 --> 01:48:21.840 know how periods work, so I will just steamroll through 1957 01:48:21.840 --> 01:48:23.680 a conversation. That's great. 1958 01:48:24.439 --> 01:48:25.680 I really enjoyed it here. 1959 01:48:26.560 --> 01:48:30.800 You can find me at someforge dot com or pretty 1960 01:48:30.880 --> 01:48:36.399 much anywhere at fivefold law, what work fivefold Law, and 1961 01:48:37.000 --> 01:48:40.720 I am currently working on the first draft of my 1962 01:48:40.840 --> 01:48:44.439 next book, which will be sort of a spiritual sequel 1963 01:48:44.479 --> 01:48:48.479 to The casts Apple. While getting more into world mythology 1964 01:48:48.520 --> 01:48:51.680 and pop culture. One thing I did forget to say 1965 01:48:51.720 --> 01:48:54.079 about the casts Apple, just the people know what they're 1966 01:48:54.079 --> 01:48:57.600 getting into. Some of the pages are intentionally upside down. 1967 01:48:57.800 --> 01:49:01.760 Oh yeah, well I've caught that. My only one star 1968 01:49:01.840 --> 01:49:03.840 review on Amazon came from somebody who got thought he 1969 01:49:03.880 --> 01:49:04.560 got a misprint. 1970 01:49:05.720 --> 01:49:07.359 So I want people know that that was done. 1971 01:49:09.239 --> 01:49:12.920 But yeah, that's uh that five full law everywhere thumperforge 1972 01:49:13.680 --> 01:49:17.840 dot com and uh, I will wonder about here anytime. 1973 01:49:17.520 --> 01:49:17.880 You want me. 1974 01:49:18.680 --> 01:49:22.640 Yeah, I definitely had him last. And I noticed that too, 1975 01:49:22.640 --> 01:49:25.479 with the upside down with like I mean, I don't know. 1976 01:49:25.560 --> 01:49:27.479 For me, I just knew that was tom purpose. 1977 01:49:27.720 --> 01:49:32.319 I just didn't yeah, especially because it was also it's 1978 01:49:32.359 --> 01:49:35.079 also like I think it's the Discordian parts. 1979 01:49:34.840 --> 01:49:39.720 Right, Yeah, yeah, that was Discordian dance breaks and just 1980 01:49:39.720 --> 01:49:42.800 a little stop and reorient and think about things in 1981 01:49:42.840 --> 01:49:46.079 a different way. And it was actually somebody on the 1982 01:49:46.159 --> 01:49:48.760 design team at the publisher came up with the idea 1983 01:49:49.640 --> 01:49:53.199 and I wasn't entirely sold on it. So I went 1984 01:49:53.439 --> 01:50:00.319 to my most like like grumpy, curmudgeonly friend and I said, Hey, 1985 01:50:00.399 --> 01:50:02.039 if some of the pages in the book were upside down, 1986 01:50:02.039 --> 01:50:03.960 what would you think, And he said, I think that 1987 01:50:04.000 --> 01:50:06.239 would mean that I should stop and reorient and change 1988 01:50:06.279 --> 01:50:07.920 the way I'm looking at it. I was like, we's old. 1989 01:50:09.840 --> 01:50:11.800 So yeah, everybody, for the most part, everybody seems to 1990 01:50:11.800 --> 01:50:13.439 get it. But I always sort of offer that disclis, 1991 01:50:15.560 --> 01:50:16.239 so people aren't you. 1992 01:50:17.279 --> 01:50:20.319 And I said before, the book to me reads differently. 1993 01:50:20.399 --> 01:50:21.880 It's not going to be a to me. It's in 1994 01:50:22.000 --> 01:50:25.319 your everyday magic book, you know. I think it's a 1995 01:50:25.359 --> 01:50:26.279 little bit more personal. 1996 01:50:26.479 --> 01:50:28.600 I don't know. I liked it so far from what 1997 01:50:28.640 --> 01:50:31.720 I read. I highly suggest that if you're into chaos magic. 1998 01:50:31.800 --> 01:50:33.479 I just I feel like if I tell you to 1999 01:50:33.560 --> 01:50:35.439 check this book out and snack it and be like 2000 01:50:35.520 --> 01:50:38.840 every other book you read. So, uh, check it out 2001 01:50:38.840 --> 01:50:41.439 if you're into that stuff and thump very amazing. 2002 01:50:41.520 --> 01:50:41.800 Again. 2003 01:50:41.920 --> 01:50:44.520 I was very happy for being on. If you coming on, 2004 01:50:44.560 --> 01:50:46.439 we'll definitely get you on the future if you have one. 2005 01:50:46.560 --> 01:50:46.840 We had. 2006 01:50:47.000 --> 01:50:48.680 I had a blast, so I would love to get 2007 01:50:48.680 --> 01:50:49.359 you back on again. 2008 01:50:49.880 --> 01:50:52.640 And uh, thank you everybody that showed up, and thank 2009 01:50:52.680 --> 01:50:54.319 you everybody in the chat. There's a lot of people 2010 01:50:54.319 --> 01:50:56.079 in chat, and that's what's up, and that's where we 2011 01:50:56.119 --> 01:50:58.359 do it live and until the next one. 2012 01:50:58.479 --> 01:51:00.520 Everybody be well late yeah,