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Sign up now at 44 00:01:57.959 --> 00:01:59.879 Chumba casino dot com. 45 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:03.000 Pret never lost your regnition's eating pluss. 46 00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:17.000 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 47 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:20.120 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 48 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:27.479 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 49 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:31.199 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 50 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:35.479 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 51 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:39.400 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 52 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:54.400 Good Evening an investigation into the man Scotland Yard thought 53 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:58.919 but couldn't prove, was Jack the Ripper. Dozens of theories 54 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:01.400 have attempted to resolve the mystery of the identity of 55 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:06.319 Jack the Ripper, the world's most famous serial killer. Ripperologist 56 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:09.280 Robert House contends that we may have known the answer 57 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:13.919 all along. The head of Scotland Yard's criminal investigation department 58 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:17.599 at the time of the murders thought Aaron Kozminsky was guilty, 59 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:21.599 but he lacked the legal proof to convict him. By 60 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:26.159 exploring Kasminsky's life, House builds a strong circumstantial case against him. 61 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:30.680 Showing not only that he had means, motive, and opportunity, 62 00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:33.199 but also that he fit the general profile of a 63 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:37.360 serial killer as defined by the FBI today. The first 64 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:40.520 book to explore the life of Aaron Kosminsky, one of 65 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:43.960 Scotland Yard's top suspects in the quest to identify Jack 66 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:49.280 the Ripper, combines historical research and contemporary criminal profiling techniques 67 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:52.599 to solve one of the most vexing criminal mysteries of 68 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:55.800 all time. The book draws on a decade of research 69 00:03:55.879 --> 00:03:59.520 by the author, including trips to Poland and England to 70 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:04.000 uncover kas Minsky's past and details of the case. Includes 71 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:07.639 a forward by Roy Hazelwood, a former FBI profiler and 72 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:12.800 a pioneer of profiling sexual predators. Features dozens of photographs 73 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:18.160 and illustrations, building a thorough and convincing case that completes 74 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:21.839 the work begun by Scotland Yard more than a century ago. 75 00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:24.720 This book is essential reading for anyone who wants to 76 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:30.399 know who really committed Jack the rippers heinous and unforgettable crimes. 77 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:32.800 The book that we're featuring this evening is Jack the 78 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:36.600 Ripper and the Case for Scotland Yard's prime Suspect, with 79 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:41.839 my special guest, ripperologist, journalist and author, Robert House. Welcome 80 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:43.839 to the program, and thank you for greeting this interview. 81 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:48.480 Robert House, Thanks Dan, thanks for having me on the show. 82 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:50.680 I've been a fan for a while, so happy to 83 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:50.920 be on. 84 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:56.720 Thank you very much. A great book. This did not 85 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:59.959 come out this year, so maybe you can tell us 86 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:04.279 what year that came out. But let's talk about how 87 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:07.480 you came to this story, your background. I mentioned you're 88 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:11.480 a ripperologist, so tell us the amount of time that 89 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:16.360 you dedicated to this studying this case, and before we 90 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:20.319 talk about what you did in the pursuit of the 91 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:24.680 main suspect and how you came to find that about 92 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:28.160 that information and make that determination. So to give us 93 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:31.920 a little bit of background on yourself and as a ripperologist, 94 00:05:32.120 --> 00:05:36.639 and tell us then about how you came to endeavor 95 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:39.519 to write this incredible book and do the research necessary 96 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:41.160 to do this. 97 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:46.720 Sure, So I'm a you know, I'm a graphic designer 98 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:50.079 by trade, so everything I've done in the area of 99 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:53.680 researching Jack the Ripper has been done in my spare time, 100 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:57.000 you know, kind of as a hobby. I initially got 101 00:05:57.079 --> 00:06:01.480 interested in it around the year two thousand and you know, 102 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:03.759 at the time, I was honestly just reading a bunch 103 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:07.040 of history books, not specifically true crime, you know, just 104 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:11.240 history books in general. And I just, you know, somewhat 105 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:13.920 randomly picked up a book on Jack the Ripper by 106 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:19.160 Philip Sugden, and it's called The Complete History of Jack 107 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:20.800 the Ripper, I believe, and it's you know, it's a 108 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:24.879 really great book. And you know, I just got sucked 109 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:27.040 into the mystery of the case, like so many other 110 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:35.079 ripperologists have done. But there was, you know, there was 111 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:39.600 this one particular suspect that I became interested in, and 112 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:42.120 this is Aaron Kosminsky, Who's the suspect I wrote my 113 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:46.959 book about. You know, Sugden effectively dismissed him as a 114 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:52.199 viable suspect in the Jack the Ripper case. And the 115 00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:55.319 more that I thought about this, the you know, the 116 00:06:55.720 --> 00:07:00.480 the more problems I started to see in in his argument, 117 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:04.199 I guess, I would say, you know, and the more 118 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:07.079 I thought about Aaron Kusminsky, he just seemed actually like 119 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:09.199 he was a very good fit for Jack the Ripper. 120 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:12.120 So I started doing, you know, just a little bit 121 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:17.360 of research in my spare time, mostly pretty much all online. 122 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:20.279 I started reading a lot of other books on serial killers, 123 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:28.600 and you know, the real so the real break in 124 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:36.600 my own research came when basically I discovered Aaron Kusminsky's 125 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:42.319 genealogical records in Poland. You know, Aaron Kuzminsky has been 126 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:45.959 known as a suspect in the case since nineteen eighty 127 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:49.839 seven when he was discovered by Martin Fido, but very 128 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:52.319 little was known about him. Very little is still known 129 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:54.600 about him, in fact. But you know, at the time, 130 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:57.519 it was known that he came from Poland, but you know, 131 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:04.319 almost nothing was really known about his family or you know, 132 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:07.480 where he was from. So I did this search for 133 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:12.720 his genealogical records in Poland, and it was you know, 134 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:14.839 I just submitted a search request. At that time, I 135 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:17.079 did not travel to Poland, so I submitted a search 136 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:22.920 request in the Polish archives, you know, and to do so, 137 00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:25.480 I had to have a pretty good idea of where 138 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:28.800 in Poland he was from, because Poland is divided into 139 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:36.639 Gubernia's and the their archives are not centrally you know, 140 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:41.399 digitized or anything like that. So I had to you know, 141 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:46.200 submit this request, have it translated into Polish, and you know, 142 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:51.120 I found these records and then from there we got 143 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:53.759 you know, the names of all his siblings, the names 144 00:08:53.759 --> 00:08:58.039 of his parents, and that led to subsequent discoveries in 145 00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:01.440 in England because we were then able to search, you know, 146 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:05.320 for records of his siblings for example, and you know, 147 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:08.039 that led to a bunch of other things. And so 148 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:10.159 you know, I was doing this research in my spare 149 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:14.360 time for you know, five or six years, and I 150 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:17.279 discovered a lot of information about Aaron Cosminsky that had 151 00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:19.600 not been previously known. So I decided to write a book, 152 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:27.440 and the book came out in twenty eleven. That's basically 153 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:28.120 it in the nutshell. 154 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:32.840 Now, I want to ask you. You mentioned Martin Feedo, 155 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:36.559 so let's talk about who he is. And again we 156 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:39.320 just glossed over what happened in nineteen eighty seven. That 157 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:44.080 was a new development for ripperologists. And tell us how 158 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:47.919 Aaron Kosminsky's name came up in nineteen eighty seven as 159 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:48.399 a result. 160 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:52.120 Yep, So I'm going to jump back a little bit 161 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:57.399 to nineteen ten. The main reason that Aaron Kosminsky such 162 00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:01.399 a prime suspect in the case is because because in 163 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:04.279 nineteen ten, Robert Anderson, who was the head of the 164 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:12.559 criminal investigative investigation department at Scotland Yard, wrote a autobiography 165 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:17.399 in which he stated that, contrary to popular belief, the 166 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:21.440 police actually knew the identity of Jack the Ripper, but 167 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:26.080 in the book he did not name the suspect. He 168 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:30.639 said out of you know, concerns for being sued for 169 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:36.200 libel and you know, really because he said the reputation 170 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:38.720 of his department would suffer because the police don't tell 171 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:43.559 tales out of school. There are various other reasons why he, 172 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:46.399 you know, wouldn't name a suspect in a case like this. 173 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:50.840 But he never named the suspect. And in the eighties, 174 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:59.279 the grandson of the person who was actually the head 175 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:03.039 of the Jack the ri Investigation at Scotland Yard, who 176 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:07.000 worked under Anderson, was a man named Donald Donald Swanson, 177 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:13.000 and his grandson discovered that Swanson had owned a copy 178 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:18.000 of this book. And in the book where Anderson declined 179 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:22.039 to name the suspect, Swanson actually wrote the suspect's name 180 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:25.639 in the margin in pencil, and he wrote Cosminsky, but 181 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:30.200 he only gave the last name. So Martin Fido in 182 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:33.919 nineteen eighty seven, you know, Martin Fider is a well 183 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:41.960 known riperologist, and he decided to try to discover a 184 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:47.320 person named Cosminsky in the asylum records because Anderson stated 185 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:51.039 that Cosminsky, you know, was insane and ended up in 186 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:55.480 an insane asylum. So Martin Fido did a search through 187 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:59.320 the asylum records and he only discovered one Cosminsky, and 188 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:00.559 that was Aaron Minsky. 189 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:01.799 You know. 190 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:09.600 Ironically, Fido dismissed Aaron Kuzminsky as a viable suspect almost immediately, 191 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:12.399 which I've always found to be, you know, incredibly odd 192 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:14.720 because you would think that the person who discovered him 193 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:16.840 him would want to, you know, sort of take the 194 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:19.279 credit for solving the case once and for all. 195 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:20.440 But that wasn't. 196 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:24.320 That wasn't what happened, And Martin Fido came up with 197 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:28.039 a sort of an alternate theory. I won't go into 198 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:32.000 the details, but that's how Aaron Kuzminsky's name came to 199 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:34.879 be known. So he's his name's really been known since 200 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:35.440 the eighties. 201 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:43.080 What was the reasoning for Fido dismissing Chris Minsky after 202 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:46.279 he had discovered Kuzminsky? What was his rationale? 203 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:51.480 So his rationale and most people's, uh, you know, the 204 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:55.279 common reason that Aaron Kusminsky has dismissed is because people 205 00:12:55.399 --> 00:13:01.600 say a he was an imbecile. He's commonly described as 206 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:07.720 being an imbecile because well, it's really because he he was. 207 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:12.200 He was he was initially entered into Colney Hatch County 208 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:14.600 Asylum and then he was transferred to a place called 209 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:23.000 Leavesden Asylum for imbeciles. That that was reason one. Reason 210 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:28.000 two is that there's a there's a document written by 211 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:32.519 a police surgeon who certified Aaron Kasminsky is insane. I'm 212 00:13:32.600 --> 00:13:36.879 sorry now his his admission record to Colney Hatch states 213 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:41.080 that he's not violent because there was an entry on 214 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:44.159 the form that said, you know, is is this person violent? 215 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:47.519 And he wrote now, So those are the two main 216 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:52.440 reasons really why he's dismissed and why FIDO dismissed him. 217 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:57.120 But there are other aspects of his asylum records that 218 00:13:57.279 --> 00:13:59.879 also led them to dismiss him as well. For example, 219 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:06.559 the person who certified him is insane wrote down, among 220 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:10.240 the reasons that he goes about in the gutter and 221 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:14.519 eats food out of the gutter, you know, things like that. 222 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.919 He was also his asylum record also states that he 223 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:22.240 was a compulsive masturbator that was given us the reason 224 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:25.639 for insanity in fact. So, you know, all these things 225 00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:30.200 added up to, you know, sort of paint a picture 226 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.480 that was very different from the way most people picture 227 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:35.440 Jack the Ripper when they think of him. You know, 228 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:39.279 he thought of as being this cunning sort of super villain, 229 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:42.600 and here you have Erin Cosminsky, who's a you know, 230 00:14:42.679 --> 00:14:47.200 Jack the Rippers also commonly thought of as being you know, 231 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:49.879 sort of an upper class person, at least that's how 232 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:53.240 he's portrayed in films like the Johnny Depp film. You know, 233 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:57.200 he's he's portrayed as an aristocrat or sometimes as a doctor. 234 00:14:57.919 --> 00:14:58.080 You know. 235 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:02.600 So here you have Aaron Cosminsky who was unemployed, lower 236 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:07.000 class immigrant who is insane, you know, going about in 237 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:09.480 the streets picking up food out of the gutter, and 238 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:15.399 said to be both an imbecile and not dangerous. So, 239 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:17.440 you know, the more I actually looked into some of 240 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:19.399 these things, I realized that, you know, a lot of 241 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:25.360 these arguments are actually quite weak, because, for one thing, 242 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:29.679 he was not an imbecile. The term was actually you know, 243 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:33.279 a strictly defined legal and medical term in the nineteenth century, 244 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:36.399 which meant the equivalent of what we would now call, 245 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:41.519 you know, a mentally retarded person. But the fact, the 246 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:46.000 fact is that the imbecile asylums took in both people 247 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:49.279 who were legally defined as imbeciles and also people who 248 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:54.039 were legally defined as lunatics. The main reason, you know, 249 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:56.759 a person would end up in a so called imbecile 250 00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:02.879 asylum was if he was deemed to be untreatable. So, 251 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:10.200 you know, Aaron Kosminsky almost certainly had schizophrenia, you know, 252 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:12.360 so the doctors at the time would have determined that 253 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:18.320 he was untreatable. Uh, and hence he was transferred to Leivesden. 254 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:19.799 You know. 255 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:22.960 The part about not being violent is also somewhat contradicted 256 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:28.320 by his his asylum records, in which it states that 257 00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:29.759 he was at times violent. 258 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:31.840 He actually. 259 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:36.799 Threatened to attack one of the asylum attendants at one point, 260 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:40.480 and it's also documented in his record that he attacked 261 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:42.759 his own or he threatened to attack his own sister 262 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:43.679 with a knife. 263 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:44.919 Right. 264 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.960 But you know when he you know, when these forms 265 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:52.600 are being filled out, uh, you know, they're they're asking 266 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:55.639 probably his brother, who was the person who brought him 267 00:16:55.759 --> 00:17:01.840 to the workhouse, too to be seen by doctor. You know, 268 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:04.960 they would have asked his brother, you know, is he violent? 269 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:08.359 Brother said no, and he simply filled that in the form, 270 00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:14.039 you know, which is a perfectly normal response. And you know, 271 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.039 you can picture the same thing could have been said 272 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:19.799 of Ted Bundy or Gary Ridgeway if they were you know, 273 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:22.960 being entered into you know, entered into some form. You know, 274 00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:27.640 somebody who knew Bundy would have said he's not violent. So, 275 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:30.960 you know, these these objections to Aaron Kusminski start to 276 00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:33.799 sort of fall apart, and the more you look at him, 277 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:39.279 he actually fits the you know, what you would what 278 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:42.359 you would think Jack the Ripper was actually like. And 279 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:46.799 once those objections are gone, then you see that the 280 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:51.319 case against him is actually quite strong, although very little 281 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:52.759 is still known about him as a person. 282 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:58.279 To be honest, you did extensive research like no one 283 00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:02.519 else has. As you mentioned about Aaron Kazminsky. It's himself 284 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.119 and his family background as much as you could find, 285 00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:09.519 and so there's some extrapolation or inferences, but basically incredible 286 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:11.799 amount of information. But before we get to that, what 287 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:16.799 I found was interesting is the again, we really do 288 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:21.839 a great job of vividly describing Poland and Europe before 289 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:25.000 we get to Britain, and then describing Britain. But I'd 290 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:28.480 never heard, you know, this other background for Kazminsky. But 291 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:32.079 what was interesting before we get to that, is to 292 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:36.720 explain how important they thought masturbation was to insanity at 293 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:39.559 that time, just to sort of give the listener some 294 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:42.240 idea of the mindset at that time. 295 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:47.759 You know, to really understand what was going on, you 296 00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:53.000 have to understand that insanity was very poorly understood. You know, 297 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:56.440 it was starting to be understood a little bit better 298 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.799 towards the end of the nineteenth century, which is the 299 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.279 read we're talking about, but you know, there was very 300 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:05.680 little treatment for it. There was very little understanding of schizophrenia, 301 00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:09.160 which you know, at the time was referred to as 302 00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:13.640 you know, something else could have been referred to as 303 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:20.160 dementia praycox or you know, mania, something like that. But 304 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:26.119 you know, so you know, in the Victorian era, you know, 305 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:30.359 masturbation was commonly thought to cause not just insanity, but 306 00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:33.599 you know, all sorts of physical ailments which now we 307 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:37.000 look upon as you know, being rather silly. But you 308 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:40.640 know that that is entered in his record as being 309 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.160 the cause of insanity. You know. One thing I pointed 310 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:47.960 out in my book is that, you know, the the 311 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:53.119 FBI's Behavioral Study Studies Unit, this group of kind of 312 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:58.480 serial killer experts that includes John Douglas, Roy hazel Wood. 313 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.920 You know, they conducted extensive interviews with serial killers in 314 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:08.799 I believe the nineteen eighties to you know, sort of 315 00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:13.799 start to have some kind of you know, data based 316 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:17.759 understanding of serial killers. They could look at them, you know, 317 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:22.119 kind of in a statistical manner, and you know, so 318 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:25.160 they're looking at common traits of serial killers. And I 319 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:30.960 believe they interviewed thirty seven known serial killers, and one 320 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:34.519 of the you know, highest, one of the most common 321 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:37.920 traits I think it was, you know, eighty eighty percent 322 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:40.640 or something was compulsive masturbation. 323 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:41.960 You know. 324 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:44.559 So although people kind of joke about this, you know, 325 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:46.759 when they're you know, sort of making fun of Aaron 326 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:51.039 Kusminski is a suspect, you know, it's actually a predict 327 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:53.359 you know, not a predictor, but it's a you know, 328 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:55.440 it's very common trait among serial killers. 329 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:02.799 Let's talk about and also what I want to mention too, 330 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:06.640 that did you found as well to disprove the imbecile 331 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:10.839 argument or dismissed this imbecile argument because for all official 332 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:14.039 records he was considered not an imbecile but an actual lunatic. 333 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:17.640 And you found that information, which is a big distinction. 334 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:21.359 So you want me to go into that a little 335 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:28.519 bit more, well, I mean, if you like, sure, yeah, 336 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:32.039 I mean, you know, to I really read quite a 337 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:35.400 bit about the history of you know, both insanity and 338 00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:41.559 lunatic asylums in England specifically, you know, and like I said, 339 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:47.000 there was really very little treatment for people who were 340 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:52.400 insane in the nineteenth century, and you know, for the 341 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.839 most part, people who ended up in insane asylums were 342 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:00.880 mostly managed really, you know, was not much of a 343 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:04.759 sense of treating them because they didn't have any sense 344 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:07.200 of what they could do, so you know, it was 345 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:11.599 a lot of sort of restraint. Towards the end of 346 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:16.640 the nineteenth century they started using chemical restraint. But the 347 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:22.960 you know, the sort of taxonomy for how insane people 348 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:28.960 were categorized was quite primitive, and you know, there was, 349 00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:34.599 you know, like I said, legally speaking, three broad categories 350 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:41.000 for insanity. One was lunatic, another one was imbecile, and 351 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:44.519 the third one was person of unsound mind, which it's 352 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:50.599 actually quite unclear what that really meant. I looked into it, 353 00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:53.400 and I read one person who who did a pretty 354 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:56.440 extensive study of asylum records, and he couldn't really tell 355 00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:59.880 that there was any you know, determining factor between lunatic 356 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:05.000 person of unsound mind. But you know, it shows, it shows, 357 00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:08.640 you know, to an extent, the brutality with which these 358 00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:12.240 people were treated. That you know, people who were you know, 359 00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:16.480 mentally retarded effectively were just lumped together with insane people. 360 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:19.839 They were all you know, kind of put put in 361 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:25.599 these places and you know, treated really quite badly. So 362 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:33.960 for me to understand what an imbecile asylum was, you know, 363 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:36.559 required me looking quite a bit into the history of 364 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:37.559 asylums in England. 365 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:38.400 You know. 366 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:43.000 The fact was that the the asylums were overcrowded, and 367 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:48.119 you know, the doctors towards the end of the nineteenth 368 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.000 century they did start to think that think more about 369 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:54.960 ways of treating people who were insane, but for the 370 00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:58.279 cases that they determined to be untreatable, they would just 371 00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:01.960 sort of shuffle the person off to a you know 372 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:06.119 what in my book I call sort of an overflow container, 373 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:08.279 you know, just get them out of here and send 374 00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:10.000 them off to that other place where they just can 375 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:14.359 be basically managed. And so the imbecile asylums really. 376 00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:15.960 Were. 377 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:21.119 You know, they housed both imbeciles and lunatics, and you 378 00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:25.119 know they were kind of designed to have only people 379 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:29.559 who were non violent as well people who are considered harmless. 380 00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:32.200 But then you know that distinction also fell away and 381 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.599 they just started taking anybody. Really, there was massive overcrowding 382 00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:36.359 in these places. 383 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:41.799 So you do an incredible job of talking about the 384 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:45.279 atmosphere and the environment at the time in Poland that 385 00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:54.720 likely shaped or did shape Aaron Kosminsky's future mindset. And 386 00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:59.000 so what you have is Poland in the late eighteenth century, 387 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:03.319 and you talk about how weak in Poland had been 388 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:08.200 because of Russia and Prussia and Austria, and so tell 389 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:11.920 us about as you do start in seventeen seventy two 390 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:16.279 and talk about the atmosphere and the environment and the sentiment. 391 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:17.319 So tell us about that. 392 00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:23.559 You know, I won't go too much into the history 393 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:26.400 of it. You know, to be honest, I'm not I 394 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:28.920 wouldn't consider myself to be an expert in you know, 395 00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:32.759 the history of Poland in the eighteenth century. But you 396 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:36.319 know it was a very weak country at the time, 397 00:25:36.759 --> 00:25:43.039 and the you know, these three bordering countries Russia, Prussia, 398 00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:47.920 and Austria effectively had a treaty that was designed to 399 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:51.359 you know, weak in Poland, and you know, ultimately the 400 00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:56.559 country was basically liquidated and you know, broken up and 401 00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:03.000