Speaker 1: What is up, Fellasikos, I am Dampa Valley coming back
at you with more jents and of the NBA podcast,
Fame of Yahoo Sports, fame of Forbes is Fame, and
of OnlyFans Celebrity. We are here to wrap up our
series of our biggest questions for every NBA team, and
during the free agency offseason period we'll apply to do
like one to check back in in the middle of
the summer after some stuff is settled. We're onto the
Central Division, which ends up being pretty timely today more
because of the trade between the Bulls and the Calves,
so we'll get into each side of it for them
as we get to those teams. As a note, we
know since we're live streaming now, our levels have been
all jacked up all over the place, So if you're
in the comments and you want to let us know
whether more is too loud or I'm too low or
vice versa, feel free to let us know if it's
good enough, Like, let's not nitpick here. It's a live stream,
so we tried to match our levels beforehand and audio
people get to see me match it in post more
before we die.
Speaker 2: How the heck are you? Well? You know, I was
doing pretty well and then you told me it's definitely
my fault levels were off. Now I'm a little insulted.
Speaker 1: Actually that was my intention. So that makes me feel
really good about how I pose that message. Then we
begin alphabetically the Chicago bull your Chicago Bulls.
Speaker 2: Excuse me, don't dare. I'll walk off this live stream immediately.
Speaker 1: So before we get into the questions, let's talk about
their side of the trade with the Calves. They flipped.
It was straight up, like you very rarely, just see
just what player for player. That's it, We're done. They
traded Lonzo Ball, who has two years and twenty million
dollars left on his deal. But I think the Seconds
a team option, and they're bringing back Isaaca Korro, who
has two years left on the deal that he signed
with the Calves last offseason. What do you make of
this for the Bulls?
Speaker 2: Mort Well, first things first, you know, for the Bulls,
it's not really that uncommon to make one for one trades.
See Alex Crusoe, Josh Giddy so.
Speaker 1: A really good boy.
Speaker 2: Uh look, actually I actually don't hate it for the
Bulls because but I'm also grading it on the curve
like I'm grading the Bulls on a curve because whenever
they do something it's so mindlessly stupid that this, in comparison,
is like fine, Like they shore up their wings situation,
which I actually think is perfectly reasonable, Like having wings
is not a bad thing. And Okoro, in my personal opinion,
was a little bit underutilized by the Calves. I feel like,
I know he's not a high volume three point shooter.
I know he's not an elite defender, but I think
he's a solid defender, and I think he's a solid
three point shooter. I know he's twenty four, so you're
not exactly expecting him to like level up significantly, but
I don't think he is quote unquote a finished product,
so we'll see. I just don't mind him at that
contract either. It's like twenty two point eight million for
the next two years. That's just not a bad gamp.
And this was what the Bulls intended to do when
they extended a Lonzo. They wanted to flip him for
something else. Now, what we can talk about is how
there might have been superior offers out there that it
shouldn't have taken instead, And that is fair criticism, but
in terms of what they got back. If we were
just judging this trade in a vacuum.
Speaker 1: You know, it was all right, Yeah, I definitely don't
have a problem with it on the scale of Josh
Giddy for Alex Caruso. So that's certainly fair to say.
I also think that, as you mentioned, it kind of
feels more of a positional void where you trust asac
a Cord to guard up a little bit more. But
it feels relatively uninspiring because when you look at the
Lonzo ball contract, like it feels like you could have
used it as a vehicle to acquire something better, where
it's you know, could you have traded him, like could
you have been a part of the like the Grizzlies
when they were looking at dump Marcus Smart last year
and gave up a first round pick. And in this
situation the Leverete, like it almost feels like they treated
Isaaca Korro as the better player for them, and it's
just the Calves wanted to get off this money. And
we'll get into the Calves a minute, but because they're
in the second apron ta, Jerome paying him is probably
prohibitive at this point and now kind of in Lonzo,
you replace some of his minutes. He does stuff that's different.
You upgrade your defense, probably upgrade your shooting a little bit,
maybe you downgrade your just half court play making and
on ball stuff. So it felt like the Calves needed
this more than the Bulls did. And it just feels
like when you look at their returns, just in some
for dematros In, for Zach Lavine, for excuse me, for
Alex Caruso, this isn't I want to make it clear,
it's not on this level, but it's just every single
trade is underwhelming and it can't always be Oh, well,
the market said what the market said, and I think
it's more a matter of timing or in this case,
I just think that this is a again not bad,
but just sort of a negotiation process by Chicago.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that's their brand, right if we look
at it, Leavin, DeMar Caruso, and now Lonso as well,
those four players collectively brought back one first round draft pick,
which originally was Chicago's own. Now, if you just add
that up, that's a mess, Like if you can't even
extract more more like more assets out of that foresome yeah, absolutely,
but I think the reason I'm not, you know, up
in arms about this. Is like I said, I'm grading
them on a curve. I had zero expectations. The fact
that they didn't sell off Lonzo Ball for magic Beans
is sort of a win. That's where we are. I have,
I have absolutely zero expectation of them at this point.
We're at that stage, you know, like is it mad men?
And that's that series in the Elevator where someone goes like,
you know, I think you're dumb, and the other one says, like,
you know, that's funny. I don't think of you at all.
Something along those lines. That's how I feel about the
Bulls at this point, where when they do something that's
just not it g reaches, I'm like, oh, okay, thumbs up,
which is horrible in its own way, because that means
you're kind of training everyone to be content with moves
that are uninspiring.
Speaker 1: Which look, that's fair, and I think, look, Isaaca Corro
kind of feels a positional need for them. He's like
proven to be at points like more of an offensive
weapon than Patrick Williams too. So does he come in
and when you look at their roster, he's immediately I
guess I think you probably could have argued that Lonzo
Ball was their best three and D guy, and now
you're kind of if you want to assume, I would
assume we's still that, but you now have Isaaca Corrow
as your best three and D guy. When you look
at how he shot the three ball last year. I've
just been uninspired a lot of the time. And maybe
this isn't a concern that Chicago was worried about, but
like how he fits in the postseason, the limitations, the
limits that they're like that he poses on your offense
in those situations. But if they think, look, he's shown
some feel like on the ball or at least making passes,
and if they want to, I think if you were
looking at this to kind of as an encouraging move,
it's like kind of showing that, oh, maybe the Bulls
are signaling that they're gonna take more of a future
focused or slightly bigger picture approach to this season, and
that's a win in itself.
Speaker 2: Yeap, while we're doing this podcast, I wouldn't be shocked
if another trade went down because Casey Johnson, pictured here
on the live stream, has reported that there's a lot
of shatter about Iotusumo, So we'll see it. Seems like
he's on the move as well.
Speaker 1: I would like him on the Knicks. How do we
get him there?
Speaker 2: Dude? I would like io on like twenty different teams.
Can we just like find a way to split him
into twenty parts because he'd help so many teams. It's
especially in depth purpose situations, like this guy can play
the one, he can play the two. In a pinch,
you can even blame him at the freaking three.
Speaker 1: He could guard for us as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2: Too, Yeah, I would trust him to do that in
spot minutes for sure. He can handle the ball, he
can play off the ball. I mean, he's he's very good.
He's just not, you know, a high end starting caliber player.
So that's why I think he's a little tough to
peg trade value wise. So we'll see.
Speaker 1: Hind in the chat. At least they're not Pelicans a
little stupid, not this time, although moret you weren't on
that podcast, but we're catching a lot of shit on
YouTube because we didn't say that Derek Queen is gonna
be a bus for the Pelicans. We were just like,
why would you ever give up your twenty twenty six
protected pick, and the justifications in the comments are just
one there. Some of them are rude, which is just like, okay,
like we're talking about that, but they just don't make
sense where oh, they're probably figuring if they tear it
down like you have Derek Queen and Jeremiah Fears and
Trey Murphy. Okay, that's great, But if you get to
a point where you need to tear it down, you're
probably gonna want to have kept that.
Speaker 2: Pick that you No, we shouldn't. It's not about the Pelicans.
This is about the bulls. But it's about the process.
It's not about the results necessarily. I mean, whenever you
make a trade, you know you have to look at
it through the perspective of value at that moment. I
mean again, so just going back, we can actually tie
the balls into this one. So Josh Gitty Alex Caruso, right,
like that trade last year, Even if Josh Giddy becomes
an MVP this upcoming season, it's entirely reasonable to go
back to when the trade occurred and said, well, you
still did not get enough for Alex Caruso at that
given time, you should have extracted more. It's a process question.
And people are so quick to forgive a trade if
a player like unexpectedly explodes and becomes a thing, then
they're like, oh, that's a great trade. It No, you
have to look at it in context, like you have
to have the nuance and understand where was this team
at that specific point in time, and gave the trade
off of that and Derek Queen giving up a future
unprotected first like twenty twenty six first for the right
to pick Derek Queen, who, let's be real, a non
be a non three center at this point, like that
could change, but so far not exactly super encouraging.
Speaker 1: That's a gamble, It's an unnecessary risk, like sort of
you know, with the Bulls and Josh Giddy, I think
you could at least say the peak version of Josh Giddy,
like he was just so young that it was easier
to justify here. And I know Derek Queen is young
in that context. But with this deal, I think what
I'm and we have do you talk about the Lonzo
trade already? We're gonna get to it more with the Calves,
I think, but we already did talk about it what
it means for the Bulls. But I'm actually about to
talk about it again because Heine says excited to see
giddy second season and with the Bulls one, I'd like
to know how much is Josh Giddy making in his
second season. If it's thirty million dollars, you know. But
the other thing is as one of your better floor spacers.
And I know we didn't play a ton of minutes.
Isaacacorl does worse than that, And so for someone like Giddy,
you want to have enough floor spacing around him. And
so that's something they need to be cognizant of as
they move, if they move Vouch, if they certainly they
move Kobe White like you're gonna weaken your You've weakened
your shooting ranks here, and again they have Kevin Herder.
That's also fine for where they're at. But if you're
trying to optimize uh, Josh Giddy, you would feel better
about having more floor spacing around there. I think this
kind of ties in though, Like at a point where
your question mort which is does this trade do anything
to clarify your question for you? Or is it still
the same question?
Speaker 2: No, it's still do they have a plan? But I
want to respond to your spacing comment here, because here's
the thing we have to already right now, heavily assume
that's the spacing in Chicago is going to dramatically decline
next season compared to this year. Because again we talked
about this before, they out of nowhere fired Peter Patten,
the architect of Chicago's newfound shot profile. And why did
they fire him? Because he did not agree with the
way that ar Taurus Carney show was saw things, which
again underlines that the bulls want.
Speaker 1: Yes, he was too he was too intelligent for the room.
Speaker 2: It sounds like correct that. I mean, that's not you're laughing,
but that's not even a joke. That's that's truly irrelevant
thing to note. And you know they drafted Norris and
Gay not a shooter, not a natural shooter by any
stretch of the imagination.
Speaker 1: A lot of sorry to interject now, but like a
lot of just positional defensive flexibility on this team now
with him and modest Buzzellis and Isaaca Korro of course,
and of course I owe he's still there too.
Speaker 2: But see that's interesting. So you want or not you want,
but like the scene could be looking at a complete
flip of priorities. So this season they were like, Okay,
let's just shoot the shit out of the ball, right,
Let's take a ton of threes. I think they were
third in the league in three point attempts. Like that
was just offense, offense, off push, push, push. Now you're
going to next year and it's probably to be oh,
defense and like minimal floor spacing. So again, what the
fuck is your identity as a team if you flip
flop that way, Because if you go back not to
this year, but last year, it was sort of like,
let's try both at the same time without really being
good at neither. So at some point you're gonna need
to be able to hang your hat on something like
the players will have to know what type of system
are we coming into? What type of system can we
expect on a year to year basis. Now, if you're
just running around taking a million threes to one year
and then going, oh, yeah, we have no spacing next year,
but we'll be good defensively, what type of team are you?
You're gonna have a major identity crisis.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. I wonder it's that's more I want
to say forgivable, but it's easier to explain if the
Bulls end up and this would be like my question, like,
what are they gonna do with the rest of their
expiring contracts? You mentioned I already, they have Vouch, They
of course have Kobe. So if you're gonna start to
move those guys getting away from last season's identity, yeah,
you'd like players that are going to fit it. But
if you're kind of beginning this quasi rebuild or something,
it's more it's more understandable to say, Okay, we're not
trying to mirror what last team, last year's team did
because we're gonna look so different and we're not necessarily caring.
We care more about the process of the roster building
and the process of what's happening on the court, at
least for this season. But to your general question, or
the question you're posing here, is is that the route
the Bulls are going because they've now traded a bunch
of players that people wanted them to trade. When you
look at Zach Lvine, when you look at DeMar DeRozan,
even to Alex Caruso and and now Lonzo Ball, and
you still don't know, like having traded four of those guys. Yeah,
and still maybe not knowing like what the Bulls is
overarching direction is like that's a little.
Speaker 2: Concern, really really good point. Yes, absolutely, and I think
that's the smoking gun right there, because like you're you
want to be able to understand what a team is
trying to do. Like if we just take on the
perspective of a fan base, right they want to know
what should we root for this year? Because like I
grew up a Bulls fan, I know Bulls fans. If
the organization came out and said, look, we're going to
enter into like a fully fledched rebuild, you'll have a
passionated fan base. That's just like great, that's a direction.
We will root for losses, and we will buy tickets
and we will buy jerseys in the meantime to support you,
because that is the right way to go. Fans are
like completely checked out. Like the apathy. The level of
apathy for Bulls fans at this point has never been
higher because like us, they have no idea what to
think of this team. They're like, oh, oh, so Josh
Giddy is so should we root for him to become
a franchise player? Like is that the thing? Is? What
Are we aiming for here the playoffs next year? Are
we aiming for the East Finals? What is the plan?
Where are we going? Are we taking it back step backward?
No one knows and the bulls themselves. This is the
most discouraging part at the trade deadline. After the trade
deadline that seymore or less came out and said, yes,
we have to formulate a plan. What you're You're played
half a season. You still don't have a plan. You
still don't have anything. Like you don't have a plan, right,
loose cotton, right, and like, oh, yeah, we need eight
or nine good players. Great. Everything is so vague, it's
so lazy. It's just I just feel bad for fans
at this point. This this is supposed to be a
global superbrand in all of sports, and it's it's it's
a mom and pop shop that's doing poorly. By the way,
It's not one of those mom and pop shops where
everyone goes down on a Saturday afternoon it goes, oh,
we love to be here. No, it's the mom and
pop store that everyone is kind of we don't really
want to go in because Pops is kind of a creepo, right,
Like that's the type of store they have, which why
would you want to try to build something on that?
Like they have no foundation, ownership, doesn't give a fuck.
I mean our Chorge Corn show this. I will also
say it's in handcuffs, same with Mark ever Mark Eversley,
Like they are not allowed to do a whole bunch
of things and they get extensions because they're just yes
men as well. That's how the pulls operate. It's it's
very depressing. And to answer my own question, is there
even a plan? Resounding no, A resounding no. There isn't
a plan. There's a concept of a plan, I guess,
and that concept.
Speaker 1: Looks there's there's a concept of a loose outline of
a plan or whatever it is. What would be the
bull bullssque trade would be something like Io for McBride
or r J Barrett's.
Speaker 2: Bulls weigh too much credit.
Speaker 1: Man? But yeah, the what would be the the move
or the inflection point that would make you think, oh, okay,
there is a plan here. Is it trading Kobe White?
Or is it not even that? Because you're waiting to see, okay, well,
what did they trade Kobe White for? And if that's
what you're waiting for, you don't have to get into
specific players picks teams, but is it answer draft picks?
Speaker 2: Okay, I have an answer for you straight away. So
they have like a Sack Collins eighteen million dollar expiring contract, right,
they also have the Kobe White contract that's expiring. They
shouldn't act is.
Speaker 1: Patrick Williams expiring or does he have another decade left
on that?
Speaker 2: Let me know. But if the Bulls suddenly make a
trade like where they take back long term money for
Sack Collins but they take on draft equity, now there's
a sign of oh, yeah, we're willing to punt on
the next few years in order to gather draft picks.
The thing is that trade is never going to come
because that's not the way they think. But that would
be a sign. That would be the biggest sign you
could get of them being willing to punt a couple
of years, try to be better and accumulate assets. It's
just not yea going to be a thing. Like the
coaching staff and the front office have actually outlined like, oh,
we're really looking forward to set Collins next year. What well,
that's like what you could get it that's just published.
But again, like why even specify it right, and it's
just well.
Speaker 1: Was it unprompted?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: If they just like unsolicitedly brought that, Collins said, yeah,
that's weird.
Speaker 2: Like what what what's next? Like, oh, Kevin herder Man.
Speaker 1: This they're berserk monk in the chat. This would be
more bulls to me? A cominga side and trade for
Kobe White that would be like peakle and I guess
Cominga's young, right, but like to have him Boozellis and
j Sangue on the same team would be and like
giddy too, Like that would be weird. Now, what if
you were getting like a pick from Golden State as well?
Would that make you feel better about it? Or is it?
I don't want to get into Jonathan Kmingo for like
twenty or twenty five million a year?
Speaker 2: No, no, no, like it picks help Because here's the thing.
If you trade for Kuminga, he's so young. What is
he twenty twenty three?
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's right, I think he's twenty two.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, super young. Still, Like so that means there's
there's still upside, Like I don't I don't think that
Kumenka is going to be untradable. So like you can
go in there and say, all right, we kind of
uh was it Kobe? Who was it? Like the was
he the outgoing player? Yeah? Yeah, all right. You kind
of basically say, okay, we're kind of giving the Kobe
White contract new life. We're just doing it with Kumenka instead.
Maybe we just unleash him for a year and he,
I don't know, averages twenty four points a game. Some
team is going to be completely infatuated with him, and
then you flip him for a major profit. The thing is,
do I trust the Bulls to even think that way? No?
I don't, And I'm not trying to be mean. I'm
not trying to be fatitious. I genuinely don't trust them
to then go on and trade Kuminga for something good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what. You shouldn't trust them, but
there's no fans out there that should trust them. If
you disagree, Like, if you actually think that the Bulls
are going to start a rebuilder that you like these decisions,
that is fine, Like matters of like differences of opinion
are totally cool. The Bulls have done zero to earn
the benefit of the doubt from anybody, though, So like,
I don't know how anyone could sit here and say
how you feel is wrong?
Speaker 2: Right, I have a question for you because we have
to get into it, Josh Giddy, It's it's such a
difficult conversation to have because the fan base is like split,
there's a civil war brewing. There is the one camp
who's like, he's not gonna take you anywhere, which I
that's the camp I'm in. And then there's a camp
that basically says, oh, he's he's a franchise leader, he's
a future all starry to pay him whatever, he's great.
Speaker 1: That's a camp.
Speaker 2: Oh big time.
Speaker 1: Does anyone attend?
Speaker 2: Yes, Oh, you'd be surprised. And here's the sting. I
I will concede that I can also be too pessimistic
at times, So I think the truth is probably somewhere
in the middle. Let's assume the truth Isn't he somewhere
in the middle. If he becomes your primary offensive initiator,
you're you're like, you're basically your heliocentric main offensive hub.
Where the hell does that take you? Long term? And
now I'm asking you because I want to get the
perspective of someone else.
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know where it takes you, because
it would depend on the context of the team, and
I would say, right now, so let's use the Bulls
as they're currently built for next season. It's probably not
taking you anywhere super special because is there enough shooting,
Like you still have Kobe White, Nikola Vucevic and having
and Jalen Smith, Like having actual floor spacing at the
five is a pretty big deal still, So there are
things that you could do, but like, if he's going
to be the driving force of your entire offense, like
you just need to kind of load up on. Okay,
four shooters are around him, and then we have at
least three positive defenders around him at all times as well.
And I think here's the problem with when it comes
to Josh Giddy and like you can talk about the
money and how the cap is going up and you
have to look at it and pages of the cap.
I agree with all that stuff, when it's Luka Doncic
and you have to build your team a very specific
way to cover for his weaknesses. He is so elite
at the things he does best, it's worth it. It's
the same thing with Nikola Jokic. It's the same thing
with Steph Curry. Josh Getty's not that player like he's
he's a good passer. He's got like when the floater
is going down, that's pretty good. His three point shot
has at least it's improved, Like we can say it's improved.
Do you trust it especially in the playoffs? We don't know,
But he is to have someone be to call it,
like to have to plan around someone who is at best,
like what a top fifteen point guard like is that?
I'm not even trying to be like an a hole there.
You don't want to be in a situation where you
have to build your team around that person. Like that's
someone who, in theory for what they are, should be
coming off the bench, maybe running second units, or you're
trying to figure out a way how do we fit
him into the context of our actual franchise player where
maybe you still have four flour spacers on the corporate
you're using Josh Giddy more off the ball for some reason,
or maybe your best player is a big and more
of a play finisher. So like if you were to
insert someone different into the vouchual, then okay, then yeah,
But if you're viewing Josh Giddy as okay, well, this
guy's going to be the driving force of our entire offense.
You're putting limitations on yourself in the sense that you
have to build your team in a very specific way.
And I think, look, Giannis is another guy you have
to build your team around him in a very specific way.
Now he's more of a battering ram, so it's not
as specific, but he's worth it because, like, he's so
elite on defense in addition to like, yeah, he's just
improved a bunch on offense. And look, if Josh Giddy
turns into like the names I dropped are all NBA
players right now, Josh Getty has never played even close
to that level. So it's fair to wonder if giving him,
let's say, twenty percent of the salary cap is a
good decision in restrict to freegency especially And this is
the other thing we got to get off the balls.
At some point, you want to prove that you've changed
or that you're making smarter decisions. Don't negotiate against yourself.
I want every player to get every single cent that
they can. But last year, who was giving Patrick Williams
a contract? There is no offer sheets given out to anybody.
There wasn't one coming to Patrick Williams unless you think
the Nets are coming in with an offer sheet for
Josh Giddy, and I would argue that they're not going
to like you do. And if they do match it,
if you want, yeah, let the market set it. And
if there's no market, look, that's just if you want
to say. Look, restricted free agency might be borderline in
the eyes of some unethical this was collectively bargained. It's
the way it's set up right now. This is what
the team should be doing. The smart ones anyway, And
there's always the element of where you and I are
coming from, where everyone else who covers the league, we're
so far removed that it's okay. We probably have a
lower price point. We're gonna squeeze them this hard diplomatically,
you probably have left it.
Speaker 2: Danny men just said that the Nets just drafted.
Speaker 1: For anyone who's not watching, Danny Metton says, the Nets justreptioned.
Speaker 2: Like three kidding. He's not wrong, that's me.
Speaker 1: You know what. The yegor the Yegort Demon comes to
Josh Giddy have made me uneasy and I love because
I love Yegort Demon. Look, that's just my point is
if you the bulls need to still prove that they're
going to change. And so I think that Josh Giddy's
even if you're not going to make another trade, like,
let's see you handle the Josh Giddy negotiation properly. And so, no,
he's not gonna sign for ten million dollars a year.
But why is this someone who's getting noticeably more than
eighteen or twenty a year based off what he does? Like,
why is he worth more?
Speaker 2: Contract would be fine?
Speaker 1: Right? Like why is he worth more than fifteen even
fifteen percent of the salary cap right now? Like I
just don't especially relative to the market. That's where That's
where I'm at with him. I think he could still
be Look, I think he was useful for them last year.
I just don't think that he's a poll star, which
is that's not an insult.
Speaker 2: And that's why I wanted to get your take because
I agree I do thing. And it's the roster construction
specifically where I think you just you paint yourself into
a corner. If you turn Josh Kidy into like you know,
if you're trying to shoehorn him into being your best player,
it's you just can't like you're giving up so much flexibility.
You're right, we need to get off the bulls because
this is just becoming too depressive. Depressive.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the other team involved in a Lonzo
Ball trade, the Cleveland Cavaliers, so we can get to
my question first, because I decided to make my question
about the Lonzo Ball trade. Uh, is Lonzo Ball to
you more enough of a I don't even want to
know it, like maybe it's a rotation upgrade, but enough
of a depth preserver? And we know that Sam Merrill
is coming back or do you think that there will
be more moves to follow? And there are layers to
this because the calves are still they're deeper into the
second Aprin now because let's say, look, Lonzo and Isaaca
Korra were a wash. Basically, Lonzo's a little bit cheaper
next season. But now you're bringing back Merrill. I think
it was what three for thirty eight was that his deal?
Speaker 2: Or was it four forty eight?
Speaker 1: I think four for thirty eight, So you're bringing him,
You're like twenty million bucks or more like into the
second apron at this point, do you think that the
Lonzo ballfit. What do you just how do you feel
about it for the Cavs, especially when view do the
lens of okay Ti Jerome.
Speaker 2: Is clearly leaving. I actually gave them an a over
at Yahoo Sports now with the caveat that he plays right,
so that's the thing. He played what thirty five games
this season, so the availability is still a big, big question.
I decided to be optimistic and just kind of looked
at it through the perspective of what kind of player
are they getting because he moved surprisingly well this season
after coming back. And someone might correct me if I'm wrong,
but isn't he playing with on like a cadaver's knee,
Like didn't he get like a knee transplant from I
think so, which is like crazy to think about. But
he moved very, very well. He's still so intelligent out there,
and you can see it in the way that he
approaches the game. You can see it on out of
bounds plays like he's a thinker. And I think the
Cavs are going to appreciate someone who coming from the
second unit, again depending on Ealth, who just knows how
to set guys up, who isn't really shot hungry. This
isn't a dig on Ti Jerome. I thought j Tie
Jerome was wonderful, but I do think Lonso has more
buttons to push in many ways where he can scale back,
he can scale up, he can do all these sorts
of things. Defensively, he's switchable. He's a great form presence
and playmaker. He's a solid rebounder. He'll make these crazy
out that passes like he's a really really good he's
got great court vision. Actually, so I don't hate it.
I actually love it quite a bit. Pending he's on
the floor now, you're asking me if they were going
to make additional moves with the tax bill there and
like over the second aprin I think they're probably just
gonna make Craig Porter Junior at their first point guard and.
Speaker 1: Call that a day, which might be fine. And also
you could just make Lonzo your third string point guard.
And it just played like a lot of full court
stuff because not last year in Chicago, but like he's
someone who will up your transition rate. And for the
Cleveland Cavaliers specifically, I know they did play faster last
year when you're looking at some of their base lineups,
but they still finished Like when you're looking in transition.
They were in the I think the fifteen percent tile
of transition frequency. Overall, they're you know, the lineup with
Strus and then the four stars that got out in
transitioned like a pretty good amount, which is some of
their core lineups after did not. Lonzo can come in
and he if he's on the floor and he's healthy,
he will continue to make sure that you do that
and so you get your floor space and doesn't need
to be on the ball. He's big enough to play
with Garland or Mitchell. I think that so that gives you, Yeah,
you're like kind of it feels like you're you have
the same amount of guards as last year, and like
that's almost kind of fine, Like you didn't need more
than that if you're assuming, because look at the end
of the day, if Donovan Mitchell or Darius Garland aren't
healthy like you, you're not going to be close to
the peak version of yourself. Anyway. I love this trade
for them because I was not in Isaaca Korro guy.
Like defensively sure, now when you look at this team, it's, man,
it feels like there are fewer bodies that could defend wings.
It's really just you know, Max Strus is held up sometimes.
But you have DeAndre Hunter who kind of made this
trade possible a little bit like to where you felt
like you could give up Isaaca Corro and then of
course if Dean Wade is healthy. So it's weird a
lot of their role players. It's not so much with
the stars, even though Darius Garland is dealt with all
these like I feels like freak injuries at this point,
that dude, we need to get the stats on how
many times he's hit in the face for thirty six minutes.
It's got to lead the league, or at least come
close to it. But I love the Lonzo fit offensively
because I just think he can give them a change
of cadence option. And yeah, I think ty Jerome would
have been better. Is better. Excuse me when you want
to slow things down in the half court run a
more traditional offense, but like you have Darius Garland and
Nonovan Mitchell now Evan Mobley by the way, Like if
you need to slow things down and run some more
methodical sets, those are the guys you go to. And
so I like, like, Lonzo is gonna be the better defender.
And I think because of the threat level. He poses
away from the ball and maybe just if he grabs
a rebound or is able to get you know, throw
a hit ahead pass or he's catching a hit ahead pass,
like that's good. I think that'll help you more in
the playoffs. Because ty Jerome went through some like really
rough moments in the playoffs this year. That's not to
say that he himself will not continue to get better,
but like to just have this option on this team
to where I honestly think that maybe you haven't improved
your defense because you've lost Isaaca Corro, but you now
have exchanged. Let's say, I don't want to call isaacle
Corro one white player because he did hit his threes
last year, but like Lonzo, Ball's decidedly a two way player.
And so just to have more of those guys on
the roster where Ty Jerome and Isaaca Corro were not
decided the two way players, and so to just bring
this guy in. And look, because you're Cleveland and you're
so deep, and you have a Craig Porter junior, you
have Sam Merril. You can also just go with more
jumbo lineups if you really want to, where Garland and
Mitchell or the point, and you play Strus and Hunter
with Mobley and Allen, you just have the depth to say, yeah,
Lonzo could play fifteen minutes a game, that's fine with us.
I love this trade for them, And it's not even
to say, like this comes at the expense of the Bulls,
even though I don't necessarily love it for them, as
we said, we understand it for them. I love this
trade for Cleveland, And yes it comes with the caveat
of his health, but you have to assume that they
have information on his health, like and he was available
at points, let like for him even take the floor
last season was really cool, And so I think the
workload he would have to shoulder in Cleveland, at least
offensively is even smaller probably than it ever would have
been in Chicago. And they just have the flexibility to
manage his workload like better than a lot of other
like maybe contenders would. But like, you don't trade to me,
you don't trade for Lonzo Ball unless you're prepared to say, hey,
he might miss some time, we're not going to play
him like over twenty minutes per game ever. But I mean,
like he rocked up seven was it seven hundred and
seventy seven minutes last year in thirty five appearances, Like,
I'm pretty optimistic. If he's healthy, this is I would
say this is an a plus plus trade for Cleveland.
Speaker 2: And there's another components of this, Jalen Syson. I don't
I'm just I'm just kidding what. It's just.
Speaker 1: They were they were all about uh last year when
he was drafted, like, oh, this is like a supercharged
carous LeVert and I just love because I do the
same thing with rookies. I fall in love with Where's
just we're ready to just throw around these hat pazards
like Karslvert's been an NBA player for like a decade
and we're just dude's gonna be so much better than him.
Speaker 2: I love how you said that, so like you sold it.
Speaker 1: I was like, look, if you you don't know this,
but if you go back to my elementary school yearbook,
they ask questions and then under your photo it says,
what do you want to do for a living? I
had actor slash professional basketball player?
Speaker 2: Okay, great, all right, doesn't know, but like I feel
pretty confident and just stepping his men. It's up a
little bit in he spent a Coral, like I you
know that that relationship had like run its course, and
that's not I'm not I'm not low on a Coral.
I actually think he was under utilized. I think they
could have used it more, but the writing was on
the wall. So for them to pivot off of that contract,
get something useful in return, and now that spot open
up opens up for a guy who was selected in
the first round last year, that's a win. I actually
I didn't even include that in in my Yahoo piece
about this trade. I should have because I didn't just think, all.
Speaker 1: Right, well, what's in the podcast now so you can
go add it in shout out Frank immediately.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm like you, I'm just not particularly worried
about their debt at all.
Speaker 1: They've preserved it as far as like if you lose
tied Jerome, like, you're just you're probably just as deep
as you were last year, provided that Lonzo Ball is healthy.
And I think sort of the question here is they've
now decided he said that they're going to go into
the tax as my dogs go off in the background,
but not the tax the second apron, But like, is
that gonna hold? And it's you know, you kind of
look at Max Drewson DeAndre Hunter as the guys that
if they're gonna do something like that's how you would
save money. But at this point, just like with the
lack of cap flexibility, like floating around out there, like
none of those guys just fit into the mid level exception.
So unless you're planning just dumping Lonzo ball off and
you're still in the second apron at the end of
the day, I like what this signals to me is
that the Cavs are gonna go into the second April
for at least a year. And if you're gonna pick
a year, I actually think that the East is gonna
be more competitive than people think with the moves that
Atlanta has made and could still make Desmond Baine in Orlando.
So yeah, you're subbing out Boston and Indie, but maybe
there's two other teams. And look, Philly might be healthier.
We make jokes all the time, but like there is
a like at least a small chance that they're healthier
or make some type of other move.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: The Pistons could get better and add stuff too, and
we're about to talk about them in in a minute. Uh,
So I I like the Calves though picking next season
as all right, Boston's down like relative to what Boston's
supposed to be did over Indiana, Like yeah, like this
is we're gonna go, like this is the year to
go into the second Apron four. Now if they turn
around and trade like Darius Garland and shave off a
bunch of money, I will stand corrected. That's the other
thing I did see. By the way, I always I
think that there's this, especially reflexively, there is this idea
or this urge to make every move even when it
doesn't involve these major stars about something bigger. And I
kind of saw, oh, you're getting Lonzo? Is that because
they're gonna trade Darius Garland. I did not like that
is not anything that like anyone who's watched a Lonzo
over the past few well last season and then before
he was hurt, like understands that he is not Like
you don't put him in the Darius Garland roll. You
are a worst team if you put him in the
Darius Garland role.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's wild. Though forty five games, like seventy
games played total over the past four seasons.
Speaker 1: Now, maybe maybe I'm following LaVar Burner on social media
and I could that have been Yeah, I mean he's
probably pot he wanted No, he wants LaMelo on the Clippers.
He probably wants both of those his kids on the Clippers.
But I think but I to back to my point
there of I do think Lonzo is enough of a
rotation upgrade or at least preserver. I don't know if
more moves will follow. I think this is a team,
like if you're a wing, this might be a team
that you'd be interested in taking a pit like, oh,
I'll sign for the minimum because they do kind of
have like minutes available if they wanted. But like they're
kind of like this team as currently constructed, they can
absolutely just win the title and they should probably be
the favorites to come out of the East. That's right
now next.
Speaker 2: Season, Oh absolutely absolutely, and.
Speaker 1: That's all because of Lonzo, Who's gonna replace Darius Garland
the heir apparent there, And that's how much better it
they are.
Speaker 2: But and so who are they getting for Garland? Just
to with this take this fantasy.
Speaker 1: Patrick Williams, Maybe, like I just I love this team.
I loved them last year obviously the way to see
and ended was a disappointment, but I think it took it.
You can look at this and say, because we love
the Lonzo move, but it does take just like it
took a level of gaul to go out and get
DeAndre Hunter when you're kind of rolling during the regular season,
I think it takes guts to say yes. I know
owners were the ones that push for the second apron.
I'm not gonna, you know, pat Dan Gilbert on the back,
although to his credit, he's by and Lar's been willing
to pay when it comes to rosters. Maybe not so
much with behind the scenes personnel on the front office,
but like at a time when teams are running from
the second apron, they're recognizing that, hey, it probably feels
like teams are gonna be willing to stay in it
for a year. You just kind of have to pick
the year, and they've decided that next year is the year.
That Again, that's my read on the situation right now,
and I commend it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not the wrong read.
Speaker 1: No, well I don't think it's but like again, we
say this and then we turn around. You know, I
was talking about it, like I think the Blazers should
extend Anthony Simons like they really need a shooting and
then they turn around and they trade Drew Holliday, So anything.
Speaker 2: I can't keeps Dan like it's gonna NBA. We just
have to get our takes off.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, then let me fire off some stuff here.
I think Craig Porter Junior is going to be who's
like a like Steve Nash on steroids without the jump shot?
What type of player is that? It's the take we're
gonna fire off? You have anything left on them? I
think it's clear they're going to stay. At course, I
don't even know what were you actually concerned by, Like
the murmurings that like would they look at moving Allen
and Garland seem to be the names that pop up
the most.
Speaker 2: No, well nervous, No, not not really curious.
Speaker 1: I guess, like, I don't know why that would make
you nervous.
Speaker 2: I was pretty I was pretty dismissive of those because
I just everything pointed towards them actually coming back with
mostly the same court, because why wouldn't you, you know,
Dame Achueles injury, Tyrus Halliburton unfortunately Aquelus injury, Jason tATu wait,
Jason Tatum with the aquelus injuries.
Speaker 1: I think we should just assume anyone who's injured has
an achilles issue until told otherwise.
Speaker 2: Right, So, where's number zero and are in the Eastern Conference?
Like get scared at Kobe White, but no, not Gone Wood.
That doesn't happen.
Speaker 1: Don't don't put that in.
Speaker 2: Don't don't worry.
Speaker 1: They're using AI to fix it, to get to the
bottom of it, and I think we're gonna find that
science and artificial intelligence miraculously align with the NBA's business interests.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: That's that's that's my prediction. I know it's shocking and
out there, but.
Speaker 2: But you know, given those injuries, I just never took
it seriously because obviously Calves brass are going to sit
there and look at the market and and look at
the like the competitive field they're going to go. Where
do we rank ourselves right now? Probably fairly highly. Like
we can we can get through a series against this team,
the Pacers without Halbert. We can get through a series
against Milwaukee because it's Giannis and fifty feet of crap.
We can get through. Sorry, I mean, let's just be
real about it.
Speaker 1: We can maybe sure, I would like to have a
conversation about Ryan Rollinds the screen navigation before Ryan Rawlands.
Speaker 2: You know what that is fair? I like Ryan Rollins too,
so they have Giannis Ryan Ryan Rawlins. That's a tough
thing for me to say. And then forty six feet
of crap.
Speaker 1: Anything else on the Calves who I were an agreement?
I mean, what would be the team if you had
to pick other than the Calves to be favored to
win the East next season? Again relative to the the
Achilles landscape, let's call it.
Speaker 2: God, I have them so far ahead, So like the Knicks, maybe.
Speaker 1: If they hire Jenny Busick as their head coach, I'll
pick them to win the Eastern Conference. That's what I'm
got with him. But it's it's probably the Knicks, or
uh the Knicks or maybe Orlando.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ran, Yeah, I still you want to.
Speaker 1: See what that offense still turns into because they're still
kind of punting on the whole like floor general aspect.
But yeah, I think it's Cleveland, Orlando and New York
feel like the three And like, I just what do
you make of Philly?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: If you tell me that Paul George Dwell and beating
Tyree's Maxie playing seventy games together. We can't have a conversation,
but I can almost guarantee that's not happening. Let's talk
Detroit Pistons more. What's your ques with that? We have
no move to report for the Pistons, right, let's check
our phones. No, we're good at this point. What's your
question for the Pistons?
Speaker 2: So? What should they do? At Center? So Jalen Duran
love the guy truly, truly I do. He's young, he's
still developing, he's fairly raw still, and it feels as
though they're ready to turn on the accelerator a little bit.
So I guess the question is more than just the
Center part, but I think he's like the epicenter of
it all. Do you stay the course here and just
trust them, sorry, trust the process and go into that
or do you actually try to pivot off of someone
like Jalen Duran and go for some more established to
kind of push in your chips a little bit.
Speaker 1: So I guess what's tough about that is you just
kind of saw, I understand Jalen Duran's better, how much
more if you were to trade Jalen Duran right now,
just Jalen Durn it's not part of a bigger package.
How much more are you getting for him than the
Hornets got for Mark Williams, which was number twenty nine
and then a distant first round pick. That's I mean,
it's shaping up to be in the twenties well.
Speaker 2: Right, and see they it wouldn't be a pix oriented package.
It would have to be some type of accelerator, right
in terms of someone who's older, a little bit more experienced.
But again, it makes me sound like I'm down on
Jalen Durna, which I'm not. It's just a question of
where are the Pistons in their thinking? Like, that's what
I want to know, because if they're cool just kind
of returning with the same young core Kade during hopefully
more of Ferdy games out of Jade and Ivy, you
know what I run with that. I'm okay with that.
I think that takes some balls and I would appreciate that.
I would applaud that because that means they trust their product.
That means they expect that product to grow collectively. So
I'm I'm a fan of that. I kind of hope
that's not kind of I actually hope that's what happens.
But I'm asking the question because you forced me to
ask a question.
Speaker 1: Well, it's also it's a valid question because he is
extension eligible and their center position is weird because it's
you know them not This is kind of not talked
about enough. But Isaiah Stewart played nineteen minutes during that
first round series because he was banked up, and do
you trust him to remain healthy? How many minutes can
he log? And he's not necessarily providing a floor spacing
element from the five? Would you prefer any more? Not anymore?
I mean he again, the volume was so I've had
this discussion with Pistons Sands and our discord and they
rightfully pointed out, like the volume just wasn't high enough
to be like this huge difference maker, But like, are
you bringing back Paul Reid? So they do have and
we know they were interested in nas Reed Mark. I
think it was Jake Fisher and Mark Stein had it
over at the Stein line that they were planning to
be in on him. So, I mean, and they have
flexibility and they'd certainly have assets to do a sign
and trade if they want. They could get cap space
if they want. Yeah, the center's fascinating, But for Jalen
Duran specifically, if you're gonna keep him, which I think
is the most likely outcome, I guess if you're trying
to make like a and that'll stuff on the toes
of my question, like a really big trade. He's someone
that you would consider including are you what would you
be willing to pay him an extension before you say no,
we'll take it to restrict it free agency.
Speaker 2: Oh that's a good question, Dan. I hadn't thought about
like the specific extension number for Jalen Duran yet, mostly
because I kind of probably question they find common ground.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think he's gonna look at the nas
Read deal, Yeah, the Nicholas Claxton deal. Yeah, maybe even
the Yaka Perl contract. Like just as Okay, these centers
are making a minimum of twenty million, but Claxton and
Naseried those are and like Claxton's probably more. They're all
different players like these like these they're not similar guys
at all, but like Claxton in terms of all right,
he's not a floor spaceer, but like Jaylender and really
good passer, Claxton switches like they do things that are
not like anomalists or super valuable at the position I
think like eight, I think that's the number where uh,
I think that's them where I'd be like, okay, yeah,
I'd feel pretty good about that, because what does that
end up being, like as a percentage of the salary cap?
Is like, is that even fifteen? Like so that's just like,
you know, I think that's super fine. So like that's
where I end up. So yeah, I don't but anything
more than thirteen.
Speaker 2: Like this season, Jared Allen was at twenty straight and
that was twelve point nine percent of the cap, and
that's the cab is only going to go up, so
it's gonna be like twelve percent of the cap next year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I put to that and like for a
starting center, that's actually probably really good. So I think
four and one hundred or if you want it to
go five and one twenty five because he is just
so young, I wouldn't hate it. Right, It's so that's
actually sixteen percent of twenty five million is sixteen percent,
so twenty million would be yeah, then you absolutely do that.
I think twenty five would be. I might think about
it because twenty is thirteen percent, but beyond that like
if it's like if it's twenty five, I don't even
I might just take it to restricted free and gaway
because I'm sitting here saying, who's giving him that offer?
And I just think that he's an imperfect center and
that you're not. I think one of the worst things
you can do is overreact to that season where it
feels like you popped and are onto something. You have
to take more of a measured approach to it. And
that's not to say that Jalen Jurn can't be a
part of the grander plan, but like, let's see him
be as good defensively like his highest hies, Like let's
see him package those together for even longer stretches this year.
Does he improve to the Pistons overall improve? So, I think, honestly,
unless he comes in and is kind of looking at
the center market and do I think that I'm gonna
get more than nas reader Claxton is willing to go
for for eighty, I don't know that I'm if I'm
the Pissons, I think I'm taking it to RFA.
Speaker 2: It's crazy. It's the thing that he's already extension eligible
and he's twenty one he's gonna sign and like, if
he gets an extension offer and signs it, he'll sign
it at age twenty one, Jesus.
Speaker 1: Which is why you're super comfortable going five years on
an extension two easily. This is this might be one
of the more fascinating rookie classes, Like when you're looking
at like their extensions, like that is Mark Williams gonna get.
There's just a lot of good players, but it's oh
do you sign them to? There's not a lot of
no brainer, Like there's not a bunch of j Dubbs
and chet Holmgren's floating around out there. My question though,
for this team more how aggressive will they and should
they be looking to make upgrades especially via trade? Because
I say especially via trade because I think that they're
going to and operating over the cap is too easy.
Just carry the holds for Tim Hardaway junior, Dennis Shruder.
You can probably keep Malik Beasley using the mid level,
and so after that, it's right, maybe you could use
the they should have the biannual available to them, but
a trade would be the primary vehicle, it looks like
through which they would make the most improvement. So the
question to me is twofold. How aggressive do you think
they should be and if they were to make a trade, like,
what is the archetype of player that they should be targeting?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I wouldn't hate a more offensively minded
wing who can also go up and play the four. Oh.
Speaker 1: I seem to remember someone saying that you hated this
as a lowry marketing team when I brought it up
the other day, Did.
Speaker 2: They say I hated that you did not like it?
Speaker 1: And it was yesterday in fact, sir, when we were
talking about the Northwest Division.
Speaker 2: I thought, I said, that was one of the teams
where I could see it.
Speaker 1: I thought you said you didn't like it. You said
you said you wouldn't do it if it costs you.
Speaker 2: J Now you're actually making making me like rethink everything there.
But like, okay, I think it's the salary that bothered me. Also,
I don't like Laurie as a three man that's I
said that for sure, Like this guy would have to
be primarily three man driven. I think, uh And again,
ousar Thompson, I think that would be also tough because
he serves minutes right, So I wouldn't like going in
and just kind of signing or sorry, trading for someone
in that spot. But I do think they need one
more piece, and especially someone who can score the ball.
Right now, who is that player? There is no one
really on the market that's available. Yeah, I bet you.
Speaker 1: Could guess where I'm going. I would totally consider a
Lamlall trade if it's out there. Julius Randall, No, thank you?
Speaker 2: What were you saying, lamentle ball?
Speaker 1: Yeah, him and Exicade.
Speaker 2: That totally works as a three four okay I specific.
Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm just talking. He wanted a score. I mean,
you know what would be interesting. He's not gonna give
you as much on ball stuff, But this could be
a Cam Johnson team would be a really good game.
Speaker 2: That's a good name. I was actually toying around with
the idea of Trey Murphy, but then I remember we've
already shipped him to Okay. See, but like Cam Johnson
is a good.
Speaker 1: One, he also feels gettable, whereas I just Trey Murphy
does not feel gettable at this moment.
Speaker 2: But that's the type of player, right Like, he's a bit.
Speaker 1: If this guy's available, And I think this leads into
the discussion of like this would be ultra aggressive, like
if Jalhn Brown's available, do you like him on this
team or no? And I think that's with the caveat
of knowing. Okay, Asar Thompson is clearly going out in
this deal, at least one of him and rob Ron Holland.
Speaker 2: I would assume, I'm I'm I'm so the wrong person
to ask that because I'm not a Jim Brown guy.
Speaker 1: I just think it's too soon to make a trade
like that too, like the cost it would take to
get Jahn Brown, it's they have all their future picks,
but like you're I'll be looking at I would say
a minimum of two from Duran j andn Ivy Thompson
and Holland. Plus you're like your entire drafts Stash Roum
close to it and.
Speaker 2: Rich that's just too for me. I'm just curious. And yeah, no,
it's a fair question, but I like, if this has
been Jalen Brown from two years ago, I probably would
have do.
Speaker 1: You know what team I feel like they should act like?
And then maybe that would give us an idea of
like what players might fall into that bucket. Do you
remember when the Pacers traded for Pascal Siakam. I know
a lot of people didn't like it, and it was
three first round picks, but you look at they now
own one of those first round picks again, but that
first round pick didn't have a ton of value like
the three first they gave up, Like, look at what
they've turned into. That's the type of like And they
don't have extra first so it's a little bit weird.
But like if it's Jade and Ivy and two first
or Duran and two first and they're protected, Like, that's
the type of trade that I think could make now,
not giving up two first and j and Ivy or
jail for Cam Johnson. That's not what I'm saying, but
like to be opportunity. Just think about someone who's either
a star or close to it. Maybe they're entering free
agency and they're rolling the dice and you don't think
there's gonna be a huge market, or maybe it's marketing.
Would be a good example where if the Jazz are
willing to move him, we both agree there's no rush
to move him, but if they are willing to move him,
his contract doesn't look so hot in this moment, maybe
it gets better. Could you come in and get like
you opportunistically get him for a lower value than you
would have before he signed this deal.
Speaker 2: I think I have like an odd ball name for you.
Speaker 1: Please say it's Jalen Johnson Brandon Ingram. There's a lot
of talk about like him with the Pistons beforehand.
Speaker 2: Oh there, I missed that entirely.
Speaker 1: Before he was traded to Toronto.
Speaker 2: Of course, I don't.
Speaker 1: I just don't like it, Like it's I want someone
who's I want. Yeah, I want someone who can alleviate
Caid's workload rather than cannibalize it, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2: That makes sense, yes, But don't do you think that
Caid will allow that? It seems like he's a who's
like very much in control.
Speaker 1: Well, all right, so let's say he is in control.
But like, there are points where Zion was in control
of New Orleans and it wasn't like no great shakes
the answer of having Brendan Ingram away from the ball there.
Speaker 2: Right, But he was in and out of the lineup
so much. I think that also screwed with the head
of Ingram a little bit. Like I like, I can't
keep like just to.
Speaker 1: H if you told me that they could get some
floor spacing at the five and it's Ingram and Caide
surrounded by three shooters or maybe two shooters plus a
SAR or something. I wouldn't hate that as much, but
like I'm not giving up a first round pick for him,
Like it's salary, and that's.
Speaker 2: What I'm saying trade either.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're at a point in just sort of their
cap sheet life cycle where you could do something like
have Brendan Ingram for three years and forty million to pop.
Basically isn't the end of the world. That wouldn't be
my favorite one, but like that would be an example
of what the Raptors just did, is they got someone
who's high impact at the idea of his value. That
would be the type of opportunity that I think this
team should be in the market for because they're still
preserving their asset base moving forward.
Speaker 2: Andrew Wiggins, Ooh.
Speaker 1: That'd be interesting. That'd be really really interesting because they
don't have a lot of or like do they have
any I Okay, there you go, but like a lot
of just two way perimeter players. They just don't. They
don't have Like asr is just he's he's two way
because his offensive decision making. Even with Ron Holland but
someone who's also like can make threes or like make
jump shots would be nice. I really like that if
the Heat are kind of.
Speaker 2: Cost you a whole ton, I imagine no.
Speaker 1: Because if you're the Heat now, they did just resign
Davion Mitchell, so maybe there's like a disconnect there. But
if you're the Heat and want cap space next year,
Andrew Wiggins is a player option, maybe he declines that
you get cap space, Like Tobias Harris comes off the books,
like you know that someone who's coming off the books
that would you do? Is sorry, would you do Jade
and Ivy? And maybe there's other framework there, but Jade
and Ivy in Tobias Harris for Andrew Wiggins or is
that too?
Speaker 2: No? No, what this jayden Ivy? Nonsense? No, he stays,
Then what are you giving up? You're giving up You're
probably relinquishing a pick here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if it's protected, I could probably be talked into it. Yeah,
I'd abably prefers someone with a little bit more on
ball juice, like off of Kate. But if you're keeping
Jade and Ivy and you can have you know, we
saw them do more stuff with the sar Thompson in
that role last year or two, So I don't hate
that at all.
Speaker 2: I mean the idea is to turn wigging into a
third option instead of instead of a secondary option, like
it would have to be kid Ivy. I guess Thompson
at the three, Wiggins at the four. He's smallple four.
Speaker 1: And do you think Ivy has a chance of getting
an extension? He's extension eligible too. I think that one
would probably shock me more than Duran if he got right.
Speaker 2: Because yeah, it's tough, right, It's because he's he's been
really been a prisoner of the moment in many ways,
because then he got screwed over by by Money Williams,
which was just the honest thing, like the in and
out of the lineup like Herky Jerky, and then this
year he got injured, missed fifty two games. Like it's
just it's been a rocky start to his career. And
that's why I'm also a little bit annoyed when I
see people like so aggressively put him in not you
necessarily although right now, absolutely when you aggressively put him
into trades, because like you know, context is necessary here.
I think I think there's a good ass player in there.
I think he needs a shot. I think he needs
some stability, some stability, and he also needs to be healthy.
Like I hated for him that he missed fifty two
games this year. I hated that for him because he
was finally getting into a role where he was like
beginning to feel more comfortable and boom injury. That sucks, man,
Like I want to see him a full year, No
money Williams, no Shenanigan's healthy, because I think there's a
guy in there who could reach a significantly higher level
than where he said right now.
Speaker 1: So if you're them, and you already mentioned like where
you want the position to come from, but you're not
necessarily targeting someone to be the secondary score type because
you want to see more of Jade and Ivy before
you make a declaration on him. I think that's fair.
Maybe a little risky, just like given how long he's
been in the league now and if you're looking to
actually make a bump off of last season. But I
think that's perfectly fair. I honestly don't know where I
land on je Not. I think he was noticeably better
last year. I honestly still don't think that he's the
long term answer. Next decade, especially if it's gonna be
a guard I think I want someone who's gonna do
more of the like He's had some really good playmaking moments.
I'd like to see him string together more of just
like the methodical offensive table setting and see if he
can do that next year, which again, if the Pistons
are gonna continue to prop up a better spacing environment,
maybe he can.
Speaker 2: Do side note for it seems that are you know,
a little bit without an identity. If the league at
large looks at Jade and Ivy like you do, where
it's like there's a fair level of skepticism that that's
the guy you kind of go get if you can
get him cheap, right like the Pistons.
Speaker 1: Yeah. There. Their timeline horizon, though, is such that I
don't think that they would just give him up for
like if you were to trade him as part of
a bigger package. I think they view him as having
real value, which again is fair. So it'd be different
if like there was a sense that the Pistons are
completely out on him and we just haven't gotten that sense.
I think it's that's probably more so born from a
lack of information, But I will say right. Well, the
theoretical to your point though, is just remember like even
with Tasar Thompson, but especially during and IVY because their
extension eligible, this front office didn't pick those guys, and
so like that's probably something that could be discussed more
when you're looking at will they get an extension? Could
they be involved in trade packages? And it's probably it's
probably fallen by the wayside just because the Pistons were
good last year, which is like great for them. What
do you think about I'm like kind of latching onto
the idea of like big man upgrades. What if they
were the Jabari Smith junior.
Speaker 2: Oh, that'd be interesting, like not as a replacement for Duran,
but like as an.
Speaker 1: Play them together or you know, stat and then stagger them.
Like give give Jabar a run at the five for sure.
But he doesn't need to play at the five exclusively, No,
but he.
Speaker 2: Can he can play a lot of four. I don't
hate that. I like I would like slightly more ball
handling from my four. That's why weakens, I think like
fits in.
Speaker 1: So what about another rocket who is available per Kelly
Ico and Cam Whitmore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like he's more of a two two three but
you know, what are we saying that Thompson can't play
the four because I'm not saying that I think he can,
Like I'm not.
Speaker 1: Saying can't either. I mean you're not well because you
have Thompson knowing if you believe in Ivy's passing, like
you have enough. Second, because Cam Witmore is not gonna
give you any tertiary passing there.
Speaker 2: That's just no, like he's he's a bugget getter.
Speaker 1: If there was like a we actually did made up
awards this year. We had subscribers submit that categories that
want to hear, and we statistically did like an all
black hole and Camp Whitmore I think was like on
first team or something. So when you were looking at
his pass rate now, but anyway, you.
Speaker 2: Know, I get it. But it's almost unfair to some
extent because he's only played like what ninety eight games, right,
and he's played so few minutes total.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna keep naming rockets. Go out and get
read Shepherd. Put him next to Kid Cunningham and watch
it all.
Speaker 2: See. I mean, look the guy to go for if
you're the like if you're if you're trying to shop
in Houston it's Tarty Easton, They're not.
Speaker 1: No, I don't think honestly there that's the guy.
Speaker 2: That's the guy for the Pistons, Like I would love
that addition there.
Speaker 1: That's you keep naming players that I feel like are
so implausibly available. Ooh, this is a big one from
Danny Menton. Now, ty Jerome, if you don't have your
mid level, it's probably tough to get him. He makes
some pretty good sense here, a sort of you don't
have to get rid of Ivy then you can play
two ball handlers at once all the time. Basically, I
don't hate that.
Speaker 2: I like that one. That's that's not bad. What So,
if it comes down to it, what would you spend
the non tax emily on ty Jerme or keeping Malik Beasley?
Speaker 1: I think Molie Beasley's just three point volume and off
ball motion, and especially because Tidrome is not going to
be like this monster defensive upgrade. And I actually think
Beasley's been mostly fine relative to mileage Beasley there the
past two years. So I think it's you spend it
on keeping Beasley and you kind of hope, like and look,
their cap situation is such that if you trade, let's
say they just trade Simoni Fontakio just in a vacuum
he's making Is he hit seven and a half next
year or just seven eight?
Speaker 2: I think three?
Speaker 1: He's at eight point three? All right, basically even better,
Like you can trade for a players making more than
sixteen million bucks just by moving Fontechio. Then, so like
that's something that like that's a luxury, Like being so
far beneath the first apron is a real big luxury.
And so I don't know, again, you'd have to throw
out names. Okay, well, then what's the trade? Not? You know,
but like the fact that you could trade aid Simoney
Fontachio and a smaller salary and get a player making
like twenty plus million dollars is a pretty big deal.
Speaker 2: What player can you get who might be overvalued on
his current deal if you combine Tobias Harrison von Techio,
for example, like a big fish, not a big fish,
but a big contract where you're willing to swallow years.
Speaker 1: Karl Anthony Towns, I mean I was scoring.
Speaker 2: Not you were, but like you're scoring. I wouldn't hate
the scoring. The defense though, would be him and Dura.
I wouldn't trust it. I know you're making a joke.
Speaker 1: But that's interesting, Yeah, I mean that would I can't
imagine like if the Knicker training car maybe it's a
third teams involved. If the knickser training Corny towns. Imagine
they want like an immediate like immediately high return.
Speaker 2: But is there like a large contract where you can
basically just swap Harrison Frontichio for that player without it
including draft picks for example.
Speaker 1: Well, I was even wondering, like could you do something
where it's fun techyo and then let's look at another
smaller salary or actually you could probably just do font
techyo because you could futs with his like guaranteed money,
Like what about font techyo just straight up for Duncan Robinson.
Speaker 2: Mm, and are we still keeping beastly or are we
then going for time?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're keeping your like leaning kind of into shooting
because Duncan Robinson, you could use him at two, the three,
get away with him at the four as far as
I'm concerned, if you really need to, especially with some
of the defensive pieces they could insulate him with. I mean,
like Kate Cunningham being like nine feet tall is sort
of just this hack that allows you to try out
all these different sorts of lineups.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you have Beastley and Duncan Robinson
out there, you're optimizing ever lasting shit on the floor.
Speaker 1: And I mean Ivy if he's in on the floor
in those minutes, like the spacing for him because then
Kate Robinson Beasley. I mean, like then that lineup might
be pretty small with Dern in the middle. But that's
that's sort of the Okay, we think we got better
just because some moony von Taecho didn't have the best season,
but we didn't like commit any you know, or maybe
there's look, is there a mega deal out there's Wiggins
and Robinson and you're giving up Harris and fontechio and
then what to make it happen? That would be another
because look, Robinson is basically he has that ETO, but
the salary is only partially guaranteed, so like you could
guarantee whatever chunk you need to make the money work
in a trade that way.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think the fours. And there was some
name I was coming up with, and then I realized
he was in Detroit recently, and so that doesn't it
doesn't really Jeremy Grant, Yeah, that was the guy.
Speaker 1: As a stopgap. What about Harrison Barnes.
Speaker 2: Oh, now that's a good one. He knows his role,
he won't overplay it. He's a bit of a ball handler,
but not to an extent where it overtakes anything. And
it's like he's playing moriy ball to the full extent.
It is like corner three shots at the rim. Not
a lot of mid range stuff, brilliant floor space. Are
really a thinker out there? That's a good one. And
he's aid to what like nineteen nineteen million?
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's around there. What about this one? He's at
thirty remillion reuniting with Chris Middleton for a year.
Speaker 2: I always love thinkers, so I guess I'm on board.
What what's the deal to set Tobias?
Speaker 1: That could be Tobias for Chris Middleton straight up? I
mean you could do let like you could get there.
I don't really want to give up Isaiah Stewart if
I'm Detroit, So I mean, like Tobias, Harris is probably
the salary anchor there right now. That that gets interesting
because as a catch and shoot guy and defensively right now,
Harris is probably better. But if you're looking for someone
who could create more off the dribble, especially in a
playoff setting. I probably still trush a healthy Chris Middleton.
Now healthy is put in you know, bold caps lock
italics there right.
Speaker 2: I actually suspect that Washington wouldn't be that interested because
it seems as though they have sort of identified Middleton
as like the mentor for a lot of these young
young guys.
Speaker 1: What's interesting, though, is I don't think that he's at
I don't think Chris Middleton views him himself that way.
Speaker 2: Are we sure of that after all those injuries though?
I mean, and like he whenever he speaks right, smart
things comes out comes out of his mouth every single time.
He just seems like a very, very very intelligent person.
I think an organization like the Wizards that are going
through a youth moment will greatly appreciate a voice like
that in the locker room. I'll say it right now.
Speaker 1: Even though he's not totally available, they the Detroit should
be considered a Yannas Attenta Kumpo dark horse. If he
becomes available, he would him and kid would absolutely just
destroy worlds. Another name that I kind of like been
kicking around the idea, and I don't necessarily like know
off Rip how it works because he's a free agent.
He's a restricted free agent. But if you missed on
nas read Santi Albama as a four or five. He's
not really a three to four. But he can make
sense here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I would love to see al
Daba in a place where he gets more minutes.
Speaker 1: Or even look another Grizzly just buried, maybe not because
of injuries, and Marvin Bagley's a free A well, no,
I was gonna say he'd be fun anywhere. But like
Jay Huff, like if you're just looking for the floor
spacing element.
Speaker 2: At the five, Okay, all right, that's that's really thinking.
We went from Trey Murphy. First of all, we didn't
go now we're down at like Jay Huff, that's where
we are. Great.
Speaker 1: It's all just different levels of moves. John Jones says
Piston's top three in the East next year. We didn't
mention in that convo, but I think there's a like
if he told me they were a third seed in
the YEA, I would ask you though, if they were,
I'd probably ask, okay, like what's the trade they made
over the offseason that helped get them there? Because I
don't know that it would be this core.
Speaker 2: But I think it was the trade of not believing
too believing in Jade and Ivy the.
Speaker 1: I think if they were gonna make a big swing,
there'd be a ton of different directions they could go.
But I think you and I have identified like, if
you're just looking to make these upgrades without really knifing
into your core, a combo forward or maybe a combo
big would just be the way to go. That doesn't
mess with if anything at augments your the floor spacing
balance you carved out last year.
Speaker 2: One last name before we move on, and I'm I'm
I promise you I'm not trying to I'm not trying
to like go back to the bull swell intentionally here
but no, no, but but stay with me on this.
We also agree that that the Bulls aren't really a
great development situation for a lot of players. Could there
be a level of interest in, hey, could we actually
be the team that gets something out of a Patrick Williams.
Speaker 1: I I mean, I just I don't think you could
do that as Detroit. That's like too big of a risk.
And then he's still that deal goes on forever. Now
if the Bulls are giving you one of their first
round picks. Let's have a conversation right now and get that.
It's just at least the contract is flat. I mean,
and I get it, but like, do you think that
might be interested in the flyer? Like?
Speaker 2: The thing what I like him about pat here though
specifically for Detroit, is he's not going to take up
a lot of like the ball handling, Like the usage
rate isn't going to be high at all. The defense
is something that I'm actually I think has become a
little bit underrated, to be honest with you. And there
is a level of three point shot making. It wasn't
on display this season, but the years before then, he
was a pretty reliable three point shooter on how much
volume Not a lot of volume, but at least the
percentages were consistent until they broke off this year. But like,
I still think there's something there that other teams, some
specific other team perhaps can extract from him that the
Bulls just couldn't.
Speaker 1: I don't think unless Detroit's being compensated for it, I
can't like this, can't like Tobias Harris for Patters, Yeah,
I couldn't touch that.
Speaker 2: If that's totally fair. I'm I'm what what do we
say on this podcast? Man?
Speaker 1: We're just asking the questions. That's a good just asking
a questions. I'm trying to think of, like what would
be the team that could talk themselves into that? And
I can't come up with one.
Speaker 2: To be honest with you, Joe Dumoors called Joe.
Speaker 1: Or maybe the Nuggets like Josh Kronkey every sing like
Michael Porter Junior for Patrick Williams in a first round
pick or Patrick Williams and what about Patrick Williams and
Kobe White for Michael Porter Jr. I'm not doing that
if I'm the Nuggets because Kobe White is about to
get paid and I don't know that I want Patrick
Williams on the roster.
Speaker 2: But you're not king if the Nuggets. I don't.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I don't know. But like, if Patrick Williams can't
figure it out alongside Nicole Jokinch, then then there's real problems.
Speaker 2: Well at least again Kobe White. That'd be a good
that'd be a good fun place when in's a bull start.
I was asking specifically about Patrick Williams for the for
the Piston stuff.
Speaker 1: I think I think we kind of hit it where
it's like, you know, if it was a bigger swing
on a younger player like a Jabari Smith, or it's
you know, you really you mentioned Cam Johnson. Maybe if
Sam Hawser is actually available, it feels like or you know,
the Harrison Barnes type of stop gap.
Speaker 2: I think you mentioned Cam Johnson, which was a good shot.
Speaker 1: By the way, Yes, all right, well let me just
dislocate my shoulder, patty my.
Speaker 2: Back, and I know what you were setting yourself up to.
It's fine, yep.
Speaker 1: I just I don't know that there's like a big
name where I'd be like, all right, go get this player,
right wow, John Jones, Troy Reaver wanted Patrick, but he
was taken before they had their pick, and he should
thank the Chicago Bulls. Although I troll Patrick Williams now,
but I'm more so trolling the Bulls. I had Patrick
Williams as number four in my big board that year.
I believe he was at least in my top five,
so I missed on him too. I make fun of
the Bulls. But before we move on to another team,
he got a couple of questions general NBA questions. Let's
catch up on those regulator, Are you surprised on Sam
Merrill's contract, Will Trey Man get a similar deal? Four
for thirty eight? I'm not supprised as someone a motion shooter,
a shot champion, that's solid rock say think that's fun,
and I bet you I'd like to see the details.
I haven't looked at him yet. There's probably like I
would bet that only three of the like at most
three of those years are completely guaranteed. Like it feels
like that's team option territory, right right?
Speaker 2: Uh? I mean even if it is like the last
year is like a ten point one million.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what did the Nuggets pay Christian oh Well? To
answer the Trey Mann question, first, excuse me? Do you
think he gets more? Like he was so injured last year?
He's looked pretty good and Charlotte went healthy, but.
Speaker 2: He did, but the injury concern has to be major.
And plus he's you know, he's I'm a specialty player.
I don't even know at this.
Speaker 1: Point, I'm gonna say this. I think he gets more,
but it's for shorter. I think it might be like a.
Speaker 2: Two year that's yeah, that's a good compromise, like two for.
Speaker 1: Thirty or something like that. I feel like that's where
he might wind up. A legend of Ox Berriman. What
did the Nuggets pay Christian Brown? After seeing what Nasried
got paid and after seeing Kamingas seeking thirty plus million,
their owners and GM said no core trades. I mean,
first of all, I'll be shocked if if coming gets
thirty plus million dollars, someone made a huge mistake.
Speaker 2: Yeah, same iron.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if nas Reed impacts the Christian
Brown market at all. I think i'd more so look
at the Jade McDaniels deal, maybe the Trey Murphy deal.
What does Keegan Murray yet from the Kings in an extension?
Might be a yeah, that's that's like kind of a
different position too.
Speaker 2: Likes between twenty four and twenty seven million a year.
Speaker 1: That feels yeah, I mean he's not You're not get
if they get him for under twenty three million dollars
a year, I'd be pretty surprised, wouldn't you, because right
just because at that point, if i'm him, I'm the
archetype of player that teams might give an off for
sheet out to in twenty twenty six, So I'm not
I'm probably twenty five million if I'm him as probably
the bare minimum I consider accepting.
Speaker 2: I feel as though we kind of underrate or not
talk enough about his season, like just his shot identification
this year, and like his conversion rate and him understanding
when to take a shot, when not to take a shot, like.
Speaker 1: Even more importantly doing that when Nicole Jokic is off
the floor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot more. Yeah, for sure, he had such
a good year.
Speaker 1: Let's talk. It's kind of a somber conversation. The Indiana
Pacers one game away from winning the NBA title too,
Morret's question of.
Speaker 2: Time for a stop gap year, and it's look, it's
this is the same situation for the Celtics, for the Bucks,
you know, with key guys on that same injury. For
the Pacers specifically, it's they're in the top spot because
before the finals, I think it was leading into the finals,
it was reported they were willing to go into the
tax to keep Miles Turner. Have those plans changed? Are
they kind of holding off a little bit? Are they
looking to shed salary elsewhere to not pay the tax
because Tyrese is not presumably not going to play next year.
I think there are a lot of questions there that
are left unanswered, and you can play a different like
you can have the stop gap year, you can hit
the big red reset button, which I don't think they will,
but like, what is the approach here do they do?
They just fight through it perhaps instead and just kind
of say, okay, no, time's Halliburton, but we're just gonna
play the crafton out of t J McConnell and Andrew
Nimhart like and then extend the minutes for Jars Walker
as well to have some more playmaking at the three four.
I don't know what their plan is, so and it's
also unfair to expect them to have a plan this soon,
because right it just happened.
Speaker 1: I kind of feel like and like you kind of
talked about mine a little bits, like how does how
he's injury impact how they plan to handle Myles Turner?
Or they're just stepped on you entire apologies that's totally fine. No,
I think it's there. Look, they're inextric will be tied together.
If I were the Pacers, I think I might just
I pay Miles Turner and if he casts you, let's
just say thirty million. I don't know if that's a
number they're comfortable with. That's the number has been thrown around.
You're kind of at that point. You could figure it
out to where you're ten to fifteen million dollars over
the tax. Do you think that's money enough that you'd
feel confident in being able to tram around the trade
deadline if you're not having a good season, or you
just you're looking at this season and saying, we don't
have Haliburton, why would we ever enter the tax? And
so we are going to just be out of the tax.
Speaker 2: You're asking me to answer a question, and I say,
if I'm a billionaire, which I'm very much not. My
answer as an.
Speaker 1: Your only I have like nine million followers. It's not
enough to have a billion bucks.
Speaker 2: At least U would always be to pay the tax,
because I don't care what the fuck a billionaire pays
in an NBA luxury tax. Fuck that. Like, if you
own a basketball team, I think you're obligated to do
whatever you can to put the best product on the floor,
and if that means that one of your players is injured,
tough shits to do it anyway. That's my personal perspective,
but I also know that that's not reality. But I
wouldn't care about going into luxture tax whatsoever. If I
had billions upon billions of dollars, I wouldn't care, would well.
Speaker 1: I think that's great in sort of Gaga land, But
we're operating in reality and the team is thinking.
Speaker 2: And that's why I don't think they will. Then who
what I would do?
Speaker 1: Well? Who becomes the salary? Then that are you just
letting Miles? Are you signing and trading Miles Turner? Or
are you getting rid of Obi Toppin?
Speaker 2: Are you there? We go into like two contracts and
then I'm pivoting off like one half of that contract perhaps,
And you.
Speaker 1: Know why that might be the move now because Obi
Toppin's value has probably never been higher after what he
did for them in the playoffs. And I recognize that
he's so cool to their offensive identity. But if you
still believe in giras Walker and you have Siaka, when
you have Turner, you could make the case that that's
the way to go. And if you were to be
able to trim salary as part of an Obi Toppin trade,
now would be the actual time to probably do.
Speaker 2: It, and he would fit into the non text Emily exception.
If it was right, fourteen he's making he's only making
fourteen one. He's no, he's making fourteen and the non
sexs and police projected to be fourteen one.
Speaker 1: Right, I did not know he was so low if
he so he's at fifteen. Oh, no, he's at fourteen.
Speaker 2: Right, he's this year.
Speaker 1: That's that's like almost like it was structured for this.
Speaker 2: Thing, and like it seem out there should do that
every then get away with it. Hey, he'd be a
good fit in Detroit. Right, Oh, that's not a bad idea.
I don't like.
Speaker 1: I don't hate that, like if I mean Detroit doesn't
have if they're bringing back Beasley, they don't necessarily have
the ability to say you'd have to choose, Well, it
have to be fon fontechio for Obi toppin would work.
So you'd save some money there, you're not saving the
balance that we're saving like what five something, So maybe
that's not enough. But do you think that you could
send Like I think someone would probably take Fontechio into
their mid level exception too. It's like me, I think
that the Pacers if you wanted to, I bet you
could probably get off of all of Obi Toppin's money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is worried about.
Speaker 1: Kudos to Obi Toppin and the Pacers because the way
that I even talked about that contract, that was not
as hard about it as some I thought it was
too long if you're looking forward as a trade chip,
and now it kind of looks like, oh, that deal
will just be fine, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: A couple questions on the Pacers PDP. What about Ben Matherin,
TJ McConnell, Ben Shephard, and picks for Trey Murphy.
Speaker 2: Oh that's aggressive. I don't hate that.
Speaker 1: I don't know that. I'd have to see how many picks.
Yeah are you giving? Are you giving the Pelicans back
the Pacers big next year? That'd be really funny.
Speaker 2: But you also get out of the Benedict Mathern situation. Uh.
And what I mean situation, I mean contractual situation.
Speaker 1: I guess what New Orleans want to get in to
the Benedict mather business after getting where I'm just.
Speaker 2: Gonna say, Joe Dumars, whenever we talk about the Pelicans.
Speaker 1: I mean, I just can't. They're a trade. They're trading
like a wing and a como forward for a lot
of guards.
Speaker 2: To me in there.
Speaker 1: But look, if you include enough picks, maybe anything is possible.
And like you said, Joe Dumars is just left and
right out here making bad decisions.
Speaker 2: I mean, Ben Shephard, I actually hate losing him. If
I'm losing Mathrin.
Speaker 1: All right, if you're getting Trey Murphy, like yeah, no.
Speaker 2: No, no, I'm n pinging on that one for sure.
But what I'm saying is.
Speaker 1: You need a point guard badly after that trade though, right, yeah,
yeah you do, but you would have, mate, I mean,
are you cutting money as part of that deal? Those
salaries though? I don't even think that that's not gonna
be enough for trade Murphy.
Speaker 2: I haven't. I haven't really looked at that trade.
Speaker 1: On Actually, Mathren McConnell, Shephard might be able to make
the money work. But like, if you're the Pacers trying
to stay out of the tax.
Speaker 2: It feels like the open obi top in scenarios that
we outlined before is more realistic.
Speaker 1: Yes, oh yeah for sure.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: Berserk Monk says, does Mathern automatically feast in extra points
per game with Hallie out? If he goes into twenty
two plus points per game? What does that do for
his new deal next summer. I will say that if
you keep Bennedict Mathrin and you're not making any other
major changes on the roster, he is exponentially more important
to the Pacers next year than he is next year.
And that's why I think, is Indie, if you're not
planning on trading him, you're probably trying to get him
on like what wo could turn into a team friendly extension.
And then if you're a Mathrin, you might never feel
better about betting on yourself.
Speaker 2: Right because you're gonna get all the shots, all the minutes,
like you're probably gonna lead the team in scoring next year.
I mean, with all due respects of Pascal Siakam, but
Siakam I think is more for like more for a
reader of the floor, where Mathrin is just like, let
me go get buckets. So there's a reasonable chance that
he averages twenty two twenty three next year.
Speaker 1: That's also why, by the way, if you're looking at
still because the Pacers don't tank. If they have their
own pick and I think what a gap year should
look like one I would embrace it, and so am
I going full tank. That's not what they do. And
you have Okam. If you're bringing back Turner, you just
have a lot of good players. It's unrealistic. I'm just
I'm managing everyone's load, and I'm not looking at oh,
let's trade Siakam or something because he's gonna be a
year older when Haliburton comes back.
Speaker 2: That's how I would approach it.
Speaker 1: And I think that Obi Toppin feels like the name,
even though I recognize that he's become a lot more
valuable because if you Bennett Bethter's not making a crap
ton anyway, so he's not getting you out of the
tax necessarily as Miles Turner's signing for Ultra cheap. He's
not getting you out of the tax or close to
it on his own. And you could roll the dice
into restricted free agency. See what his market says, and
he's just like Obi Toppin doesn't provide that raw scoring
element that he does that it's fout. It feels countertwitor
to say that's what you need without Halle, because that's
not Halle's DNA, but without his playmaking and pay setting,
you need like someone who can just get buckets.
Speaker 2: It's so funny, Dan, because the last video on my
only fans I called manching everyone's load. It's great.
Speaker 1: I've really when I said that, I was like, that's
a problematic phrasing. Yeah, let's over under. If Bette Mather's
on the Pacers to start next season over under on
his points per game, I'm gonna set it at nineteen point.
Speaker 2: Five over aggressively.
Speaker 1: Over all, they look they play more of an egalitarian offense.
I'm just asking questions you're getting You're getting all bent
out of shape over there, Like, yeah.
Speaker 2: I know they are playing that type of offense. But look,
without Halley, like, they're gonna have to have some main
guys a math Rn we know his play style. We're
gonna be looking at like twenty three. You should have
set the over under in like twenty two and a half.
That would have been funner.
Speaker 1: Okay, twenty two and a half. I'll take the under.
I'll tak the wow that. You need to go find
that bet and see what odds you can get for
betting that math And average is twenty three points per
game next season?
Speaker 2: I mean, are we that?
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm not down on I'm not down on him.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying I'm not saying down just saying like, why.
Speaker 1: Is the quintessential? What didn't need? Like, yeah, twenty five
points in like twelve minutes. That's definitely someone who you.
Speaker 2: Know, Like he's averaging nineteen point four points per game
per thirty six this season, and that was with Halliburton.
Are we sure that he's not going to get up
it's like four or five more points per game. Raw.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm just not going
to predict it, that's all I'm saying.
Speaker 2: Hmm, I don't know. I'm I feel pretty confident that
it's going to be like twenty.
Speaker 1: Three plus one more over under from Danny Menton. TJ
McConnell assists per game over under six and a half.
If he's on the Pacer, might he might be on
the Pelicans when the Pacers acquired to Trey Murphy. Let's
not let's not forget people.
Speaker 2: Well the over under? Does t J McConnell win the
MVP should actually be the Pucher?
Speaker 1: Well do? People will be calling when the Pacers like
wind up winning forty eight games, They're like, well, just
trade Halle? What do you need him for?
Speaker 2: TJ mcconnelly's help you do that.
Speaker 1: TJ. McConnell, Benedict mathrenuh.
Speaker 2: The league in nine foot pull up jump shots.
Speaker 1: I probably take Will McConnell play enough to get because
here's the thing. He might play more, But in theory,
it might be harder for people to make shots without
Hallie on the court. Six and a half. It's an
interesting number. I might take the over. If they're gonna
play him and he's your point guard and he's starting,
I'll take the over.
Speaker 2: What about Nemhart though, Like Nemhart, like he was at
five assistants, like the secondary guy, he was playing twenty
nine minutes per game. I assume he's gonna play like
forty two forty three minutes next season. He's probably gonna
be the starting lead guard.
Speaker 1: Right, So you're saying they'll start, They're gonna start nem Hard, Mathrin, Yeah,
Nie Smith, Turner and Siakam. I guess that would make sense.
So who do you think leads the Pacers in assists
per game next year? McConnell or Nemhard. You could probably
throw Siakam into the mix if you really wanted to.
Speaker 2: No, it's it's probably yeah, you're right, you know what,
it's probably still gonna beat CJ somehow, some way. I
like that.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna map out how, but it'll happened, I
agree with.
Speaker 2: But here's the thing. He's gonna come off the bench.
But this guy just gets shited done, right, And we
don't know like the intricacies of this, because if you
let's say nem Hard is playing the majority of his
minutes with Mathrin, Mathren is a guy who likes to dance,
and he'll get into the paint, he'll get to the line.
It's you don't get assist off of free FROs. Well.
Speaker 1: The other thing you have to watch too is I
know he's obviously he's gonna be thirty three. He is
thirty three. Excuse me, how many minutes is Sajy McConnell
playing next season, Because he cleared thirty minutes exactly once
this past year. Right, he had thirteen assists in that game.
So he's gonna play thirty minutes. He's probably gonna lead
the league. And it says, but yeah, you know, six
and a half might be ambitious for him. I'm gonna
perhaps I'm gonna say it's nem Hard who wins up
leading them assist I think playing time, or maybe it's
Tias Jones, could be Tie Jones.
Speaker 2: By the way, now we run the subject off the pacers.
I don't think it's a hot take, but I do
think we will see, you know, a well Christian Brown
esque leap from Jeris Walker.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, we might see that from Ben Shephard.
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, I hope.
Speaker 1: By the way, this is what I would do if
I'm indy, and this one might be like a way
to like wrap up the actual your overarching question. I
might stay in the tax and during next season because like,
if you're not crossing any aprons at that point, the
tax penalties have actually gotten a little cheaper in that bracket,
and so if you need to get out of it
the trade deadline or maybe it's a multi step process
where if you're not good, shave some sally to trade deadline,
shave some salary around the draft, and get it, cause
you're not gonna be ultraed deep into it. I might
stay in and see how good I can be while
also experimenting, because like, go just go through these players.
I understand they're a worst team without Hallie. There's like
you can't it's short of letting Myles Turner walk and
trading Pascal Siakam, Like what is the pathway? Like a
gap year might just mean yeah, we're gonna get the
twenty if pick instead of like the twenty fourth or
the twenty fifth. So I think that's what I'm doing,
is the page is I would not be afraid. And
I actually mean this as like I said at the start,
we need to operate in reality. But like the reality
of it is is like you could still maybe be
pretty good in the east and like it's not the
I guess it starts the.
Speaker 2: Repeater clock, so that might be something they're more cognizant of.
So that's probably they're not going to partake in the
money that the other tax teams are paying them. That's
all Like that's to me, seems like that's the sticking
point for someone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're they're so not paying the tax, are they?
Speaker 2: I'm just bad I would or at least see I
go on the teams that just try to get under it.
Their motivation lies more so in wanting to share in
the profit. Perhaps you know what, perhaps that's a way
to fight you know, the luxury tax stuff that that
the tax bills don't get spread out that it gets
spent differently.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like what would the distribution be though? That fixes that?
Speaker 2: Right? I don't. I don't know. But if that's your motivation,
you have incentives not to pay for a contender or
for a good team even like it's one of the
reasons why the aforementioned Bulls, for example, just don't want
to pay the tax like they never will and they
have no intended to intend to do so because they
want to share in that profit. Like if you take
that away, what's their carrot?
Speaker 1: You should maybe, Like if you don't make the playoffs
for three consecutive seasons, you are ineligible to receive.
Speaker 2: I fucking love that. That's smart.
Speaker 1: We just fixed the NBA.
Speaker 2: No, I'm not kidding. That's really really smart because that's
that's the best type of charac there is. Like you're
not gonna get it, like what eleven twelve million dollars
every single year in luxury tax payments from other teams
if you aren't trying to be competitive. That's a good one.
I love that. I might actually fucking write about that. Yes,
do it.
Speaker 1: That's buried you should because it's buried in Like what's
going to be one hundred and twenty minute podcast for
a three seconds, so no one's even gonna notice that.
If you notice that we said it, hit us up
in the cot.
Speaker 2: You said it, and I'm gonna give you credit as well,
because that's not my idea. That's your idea, and it's
a fucking good one.
Speaker 1: You know what you can do to thank me, Everybody,
join our discord and subscribe to this podcast.
Speaker 2: You haven't already, So glad you said discord not only fans,
because that was trending in all the wrong directions.
Speaker 1: Hey, we got to manage loads over here. Our final
team more, it's about to start a war, I believe
the Milwaukee Bucks. Yeah, hit me with your question, mister Jensen.
Speaker 2: Right, look, we have to get into it. I mean,
I understand Box fans. By the way, let me just
preface that before I get you know.
Speaker 1: Likeling linguistically, morally, emotionally, what do you mean you understand?
Speaker 2: Just before I get murdered. Honestly, I would like to
see Giannis onto the Koompoo finish his career Milwaukee. Let
me get that out of the way asap. That would
be a fantastic story. I want him to have one
of those one franchise Tim Duncan careers. That would be great,
but I feel as though we are just we've reached
that point where we're so in love, we're so infatuated
with the idea that he has to stay there. We're
just shutting our eyes at the fact that the Bucks
have just become like they painted themselves into a corner
so aggressively that we're really struggling to see, you know,
how they get out of it. And right now in
bucks Land, there's this idea of the stop gap year
and how it magically is gonna solve everything. And while
I understand the raw idea of all right, we're gonna
take a step back for one year, accumulate some assets, fine,
my question here is first and foremost, is that a
plan is that, like does that make sense? Like, Okay,
so you accumulate assets, you probably send that out for
and plus Dames expiring or whatever for like a secondary star. Great,
then you have Giannis, you have a secondary star star,
and then you have but Kiss you have nothing like
is that going to lead to another real attempt at
a championship? Probably not, because as we've seen this year,
the NBA has leaned into depth, and it's so crucial
to have that, especially in playoff context. So I feel
as though when anyone now just suggests should the Bucks
entertain the idea of trading Ghana's, We're just met with
this very aggressive no. It's a complete non starter. It's dumb.
It's not dumb. You have to look under every rock.
If you're an NBA organization, you have to explore every
damn avenue, especially if you painted yourself into a corner
like you have. I'm not proposing that they should preemptively
just get the fuck out of here. Gianni's obviously not,
but to close that door entirely and then shut your
eyes wish upon a magic star that the gap year
is gonna fix it all. I don't think that's a plan. Dan,
So I both.
Speaker 1: Agree and disagree. So what I agree on is, yes,
is an NBA team you need to turn over every rock.
What I would say, though, is Giannis is so good
that unless he actually asks for out. Yeah, and particularly
when you don't control your own draft pick again until
twenty thirty one, right you you just you keep him.
And what I will say though, is this idea of
a gap year for them is not actually a thing.
It's just a season with Damian Lillard injured. That because
you don't control your own draft pick. And I like
Ryan Rollins, say what you want about Andre Jackson, Like
this is not a team that you know, is Kevin
Porter Junior gonna come back? I like, throw all the
names you want. It me the upside of developed. Like
I like AJ Green too. I actually think he's probably
Ryan Rollins comes pretty close, but he's probably their best player,
our best young players. He's AJ Green is the Bucks
his best player. Screw Here's so I don't think a
gap year. I don't think that you're gonna just discuss
can year but a break in title contention because a
gap year, I think you could call it a gap year,
but like it doesn't have the traditional benefits of a
gap year to where a gap year isn't waiting for
more tradeable first round picks to be unlocked. It's like
going through a gap year is that you maximize the
value of that year's pick and you have this really
a palatable asset in trade talks. So I I just
don't like the way it's being framed is, yeah, you
could develop guys around Giannis and they will. Some of
them will probably get better, and they can be a
part of a rotation of a really good team. So yeah,
there's merit to doing that. And if you think that
Dame is gonna come back and be really good, or
you think you could turn his expiring contract and three
first round picks in to a player who, along with Giannis,
you believe is good enough to where you're just kind
of f shing out the roster with odds and ends
or whoever you have, because let's say, let's just assume
they will have, because my question is can they make
upgrades without tapping into their first rounders, which is it's
really first rounder, but like you can trade a like
swaps and a first if they use the mid level
exception the bi annual this year, Okay, maybe you get
guys that could be a part of the longer term rotation.
But it's just I do agree that the situation is
relatively unspectacular. But if Giannis is willing to see it
through and see what it turns into, I don't know
why you would trade him.
Speaker 2: And that's fair, that is fair, I like, but I
do think as an organization you still need to look
out for your own interest. But if that if that
interest best interest is to keep you honest there, because
that's fair.
Speaker 1: When would it be in the Bucks' best interests to
trade Giannis without him asking for out Because I mean, well,
I'll follow it up with this. It's not just about
you don't control your pick. Let's just say you're worried
about the return. Do we think that you're gonna get
materially less for Giannis next summer than you are this summer?
Speaker 2: No, the trade value is going to remain. But I
will say this, if you're trading a player of Giannis's caliber,
you can actually tell teams or a team like, if
you can get us our own picks back, it's a
conversation like you can see you can aim for the
moon here, you can ask for literally everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you could do that at any point. And look,
I'll say, here's like short of one team going to
Portland and New Orleans and now Atlanta and just getting
all of the Bucks picks and then cornering the market
on those, right. I just think this is a situation
where Giannis is reportedly monitoring their free agency and off season.
This is a situation where you follow it through until
Jianna says otherwise and you try and maximize the time
around him. But I do agree with you in the
sense that this idea of a gap year doing something
profound internally for what's already in place, that's not a thing.
Speaker 2: That is.
Speaker 1: What I would disagree with is, yes, aj Green might
get better, Ryan Rowins swimming, he's back, might get better,
get over Andre Jackson. Those are not like, what do
you like, what do you think those guys are gonna
turn into in this gap year that is gonna make
you feel holistically better about the Bucks' chances moving forward.
This gap year would be about getting you honest to
sign on so that you can like, like let this
spill into next offseason when you would be able to
trade because they'll have a pick, a least favorable pick
next year, so you trade that pick, then you can
trade twenty thirty one and twenty thirty three with a
twenty thirty two swap. Then you see what you could
attach that today. Maybe Kyle Kuzma still on the roster. Sure,
that's what you're waiting for. That's what this is about.
To me, more so than man imagine if Ryan Rollins
is the next like I don't know, like, who's the
who's the Ryan Rollins comp I'm trying to think of
what his off like defensively. Yeah, I'll throw out a
bunch of names like what are you hoping? Or who
are you hoping he turns into on the offensive end?
Speaker 2: I guess is really the That's a good one. Oh
a more like a better ball handling Gary Neil.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, can you get three pointers up like
Gary Neil?
Speaker 2: Get Gary Neil? If he had better ball handling, Dan
would have been freaking good. That was a compliment. That's
not like I wasn't trying to like say anything negative.
Quite the contrary. That's a compliment. That's meant as a compliment.
Gary Neil knew how to get shots up. He was
limited by the fact that he was not a great ballhandler.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess. You know, it feels like their games
are played at such a different cadence. What about like
Trey Man with more defense?
Speaker 2: I like that too, and probably a little bit more
under control than Trey Man as well.
Speaker 1: Right, And that's that's a really good player. So like
that if that's what you have, awesome rotation player on
a really good team, but not trading you, honest, I
think is more about your own draft situation for sure.
It's about him just being like a generational icon and
why would you want you follow it through until you
can't anymore. And it's also just he hasn't asked for out,
so I'm trying to leave the door open as long
as possible.
Speaker 2: If I'm Milwaukee, I will say this, if they follow
through on the idea of a quote unquote gap here
and they want to accelerate the youth movement and the
effects rather the effects of the youth movement, I think
he's pretty crucial that they look at Kyle Kuzma and
just either sit down with him before the season, Oh look,
you have to play a more tea Mori into game,
or just flat out preemptively get him out of there,
because the worst thing that can happen next year is
Kusma taking up those opportunities he is. He was so horrid,
He was so horrid for him. I mean, I don't
know what the hell happened last year. Also in Washington
for that matter, that was just a god awful year
of basketball from him. And like I could be kind
and say, hey, look, he's probably gonna bounce back. Is
he like the IQ there is just not like basketball IQ. Sorry,
very prit to flesh that out is not all the
way up there. It's a bad shot selection. On most
nights the defense goes in and out and it's like
it's stark degrees. I just don't trust him to kind
of not spoil the product. In many ways of a
mission of a gap year.
Speaker 1: We've seen him play better. And that's also kind of
like why if you could trade him right now, like
you almost have to wonder, do you, because he's just
at then idea of his value.
Speaker 2: Probably and it's never great to do that. I agree,
but I do think this like cry again then.
Speaker 1: What I do agree with the fact that just because
Dame's out, Middleton's not there, if you don't have like
an established pecking order of someone who is like aside
from Yannis going to eat up shots like Kyle Kuzma
could just like that could be a license for him
to go buck wild. And so yeah, you need to
have you need to make sure that he's kind of
on the same page. And I think a big start
of that is part of the appeal for Yannis is
getting to play like point center or point forward, whatever
you want to call it. So that would be a
huge list. Okay, you're not if you're trying to infringe
upon what Yannis is doing, Uh, they will tell you
to take the ball and go home. So I'm not
too worried about the Kusma thing other than it does
tie back to my question that was, like, how do
you improve this team because you have Giannis and maybe
the East has like three or four teams that you
can say, oh, we believe that it's probably how many
teams do you guarantee Yannis is on? The Bucks are
gonna be better than Milwaukee right now next season?
Speaker 2: How many it seems like guarantee.
Speaker 1: In the East, Like would it be more than three?
Speaker 2: So let's see Cleveland, New York, Orlando. I probably still
have Boston. Oh not probably, I still have Boston. Again,
we don't know what Boston's done. Like you're asking me
before free agency and before potentially a bunch of traites,
but like as so today right now I have Boston
over them as well. At Atlanta might be close too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I mean, but look, so you're gonna be
in the mix. Is in the top six mix for sure? Oh,
it's Detroit, Detroit. Yeah, right, Like there's again, but it's
a matter of guaranteeing. And I think, like after New
York and Cleveland, I get a little iffy because I
could kind of see like the rug being pulled out
from underneath a bunch of those teams. There's a scenario
at least, But the point is you're going to be competitive,
Like how do you get better here without tapping into
first And it's just I know we've mentioned a lot
about the or people mentioned the non tax paymer level
the bi annual. So now you've decided that brook Lopez
is gone, and like, unless you're making some other type
of move to preserve that flexibility, may be that fine,
But like then I guess Yannis is playing. If Portias
comes back, Giannis is still gonna have to play a
bunch of center unless you're really just like dusting off
Jericho Simms.
Speaker 2: Right see. And that's another thing that I'm worrying about
for next season two because Giannis doesn't really have that
off switch. He's sort of like, you know, the the
MVP version of Alex Crusoe, Like he goes one hundred
percent all the time, and are we like is he
or are we as if we're the Bucks, are the
Bucks unintentionally, of course, putting him in a situation where
he might be severely over taxed and thus more susceptible
to injury.
Speaker 1: Oh, whenever a thirty year old with his type of
just physiological makeup is there, I'm always gonna worry about it.
Speaker 2: But I think that's that's part of the gap.
Speaker 1: Now, if you want to say a true gap year,
it's Giannis you play thirty minutes a night, then you're
done or something. That's what would be in the spirit
of a gap year.
Speaker 2: I would support that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what what I was kind of wondering is I
don't know what's gonna happen with I mean, it could
have been happening now, is like we're recording this, I
don't know what's gonna happen with the Bobby Portis player option.
But I was wondering, just because Boston's looking to trim
a crap ton of money, can you grease the wheels
of trading let's say Pat Connaton into someone's non tax
mid level or in Brooklyn's cap space without using a
first send Bobby Portis to Boston, who could use a
big if he opts in I'm assuming and then get
Anthony Seimer.
Speaker 2: That's creative. And Simon's would be offensively speaking, not defensively,
but offensively speaking, would be a wonderful fit because he
can mimic so many of the actions of Dame while
obviously not being Dane.
Speaker 1: The problem is, and I think you would be okay
with it, just based off if you're giving up your
twenty Like, is it your twenty thirty two second enough
to get someone to take on Conaton for the year.
Speaker 2: That's the one I wanted to circle back on, because like,
let's just jump back to the implication or not the
assumption that someone just takes Pat Conninson. I I don't
know if his second is enough a couple seconds.
Speaker 1: Maybe they I should look at their picks they have available.
Speaker 2: I don't even know how many how many they have left.
Speaker 1: Let's see, I'm not giving I will say I'm not
giving up a first round pick or swap to do it.
Does it bother you at all? Though, because it's like, Okay,
your guess you're viewing Simon's is probably a rental in
that scenario because you don't want to well, I guess
if you're trading Dame next offseason. Simon's is pretty young,
you can maybe even look at bringing him back, so
like that's and look his spacing around Giannis, I would
love that. That's why I was like thinking of I
kind of thought of like some maybe three and D
wing placeholders, whether it was a like Andrew Wiggins. I
think if they put their distance first on the table,
by the way, they could probably get a Cam Johnson.
I'm just not if the plan is to go all
in next summer, I'm just not touching my first round
stash was the goal here.
Speaker 2: So yeah, they have.
Speaker 1: Utah's pick in twenty twenty six, which is yeah, they're
probably gonna.
Speaker 2: Scrubbing me for something. But we're talking about like when
Dame returns are are it feels like we're just glossing
over like it's an Achilles tear for someone who is
just about to turn thirty five. Can we just cover
real quick what kind of state do we anticipate Damian
Lillert being back in.
Speaker 1: I think the I well one, if you're viewing him
as like a player for this team, that's a huge
question that I don't think you can have an answer for, right.
But for the buck from the Bucks's perspective, I think
they viewed him as like a massive expiring salary. They
would then look to move attached to those picks, which
is why Simons is interesting, because if you're moving Dame,
bringing back Simons makes a ton of sense. I'm talking
about after this year, but yeah, I mean it's an
Achilles tear for someone in his mid thirties.
Speaker 2: What are we supposed to expect.
Speaker 1: It's I don't know what to expect when Tatum comes back.
Speaker 2: Right, And it's also heavily implicated that with both Tatum
and Halliburton that one thing is the full miss year
and the second here that's when they like get back
into the rhythm of things. So it's actually not a
one year thing. It's more like an eighteen month thing
that's here that just gets even tighter with Dame.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it does. But again it's one year.
And so if you're getting off and they're giving i
mean Bucks, if the Bucks next year are trading giving
you the rights to twenty thirty one, twenty thirty two,
and twenty thirty three to outright one swap, my god,
I think that you could probably do something pretty spot.
I don't know what But there'll be a team out
there that would like Dame is Oh, it's a lot
of money, but he'll be available and it's.
Speaker 2: For a year.
Speaker 1: I did think, right, yeah, here's the player. Now you're
asking me to zoom. I wanted to ask you something
very quickly first. Oh, sorry, would you trade? Just straight up?
I mean you have to make the math work maybe somehow.
If you're the Bucks and he's willing to wave his
no trade clause, do you trade Dame for Bradley Beal?
Speaker 2: Oh? It feels as though Bradley Beal has become like
the in person infination of like desperation. You get that
immediate return. But I don't even know how good he
is anymore because he's played two years in Phoenix where
he's kind of been hidden away. If he comes back
to a team where he has this high volume roll,
is he going to be like the Wizard's version of
Bradley Beale who was always kind of overrated? If you
ask me, so, we can still do the whole thing
as we can with with Dame. Where going into the
final year of his contract, Well, no, because the no
trade clause transfers, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, transfer?
Speaker 2: So no, no, no, then no, yeah, no, hell no.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe if Phoenix stockpiles enough shooting guards he would
agree to relinquish his no trade clause as part of getting.
Speaker 2: To the Bucks. Yeah, but if that just real, you
can he remove it like per eminently from his contract
after having made it to.
Speaker 1: The Yeah, I believe he can. We could check with
Keith Smith, but I'm pretty sure that he could.
Speaker 2: If they can do that, that changes the mathematics a
little bit from my end.
Speaker 1: Yes, So who is the player?
Speaker 2: Is what you act?
Speaker 1: So I'll throw out a couple of Well that.
Speaker 2: Was harsh, My apologies, because I'm asking you to name,
like one guy. What I'm asking you actually is what
echelon of player.
Speaker 1: I think at a bare minimum, bare minimum, it would
have to be in the lowry market in ballpark.
Speaker 2: Does that Is that enough? Like that ball bark not
Lauri marketing specifically, but a player.
Speaker 1: That well, maybe that's the player doesn't cost you like
every single pick is part. I mean, I don't know,
he probably would, So I mean, what about Okay, what
about LaMelo ball?
Speaker 2: You're asking me? Okay, obviously I'm not interested in LaMelo
you know who. You know how I stand on that.
But in that echelong of player in terms of just
the raw production level. I get what you're trying to
sell here. I would want to I want someone who
can actually stay on the floor, though, I think that's
pretty important.
Speaker 1: Well, I'll trying to get into names. These are relative.
What about Anthony Davis? Maybe the mazard like reorienting around
Cooper Flag next summer, so.
Speaker 2: It'd being Gianni's and Anthony Davis and then like Simon.
We see, but that's the thing. So let's say they
actually get two guys in there, just for argument's sake.
Let's say LaMelo Bawl. Right, so Jannis LaMelo, and then
they still have Simons, I guess in the scenario, Yeah,
the scenario.
Speaker 1: Where we had them trade for Simons from Boston and
get content into Brooklyn or other teams.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, you know, and and he'll be he's an
expiring so he'll be on a new deal at that point.
Simon's if we assume he's being resigned. So how do
they get the depth? Because okay, I can. Let's say
I buy Giannis LaMelo Anthony Simons as your top three
guys and then.
Speaker 1: You're assuming, okay, they use the mL e this year,
Like maybe that gets them Gary Trent Junior back, which
is maybe that in that case, you're wondering why would
they want Simon's but he could. I think he's got
a little bit more creation to him. Okay, Gary Trench Junior,
so they have like and my god, could you imagine
Giannis being dotted by Gary Trent Junior and Anthony Simons.
You're playing without a point guard anyway, put Ryan hot
Rollins on the floor. But we got three guys right there.
I don't know who your bit we've given up Bobby
Portis and Pat Commenton in that scenario.
Speaker 2: But yeah, and where's Kusman all this?
Speaker 1: I mean, he's still on your books. Look, he becomes
an expiring contract too after the season though.
Speaker 2: Yeah. See, this is what I've been missing from, you know,
Bucks people, this conversation where it's really in, like where
we go into the weeds about it and where we
kind of you know, extend our minds a little bit,
like how do we actually get there? Because now there's
like an outline I think of a plan that makes
on some level sense. But everything I've seen has always
been oh gap year automatically, like back in the swing
of things. This is more like it. If you can
make some of those smaller trades, it's like a stepping
stone piece to a guy. And when I say a guy,
I don't necessarily mean a star. I thought your example
of Fanfrety Simon's is right on the money. That's a
guy that's a good player, but he's not a star.
He's star adjacent. If we're being cut somewhere along those lines.
Speaker 1: And by the way, the other thing that they could
try and do is like, can you recoup any other
assets that because you don't have anyone on your books
that's worth a first round pick? I would think on
their own. But like, if you're willing to sign and
trade brook Lopez somewhere right now, the team, that team
becomes hard keppted, like, could you get a swap? Could
you get a first round? But like if the Lakers
they're not under the first apron, But like, is a
theory would the Lakers give.
Speaker 2: You a pick or a swap or brook Lopez?
Speaker 1: Is there another team out there that would consider, Like
that would be another avenue to consider, or maybe it's
just a matter of we're taking on money that's worse
this year and it's still expiring, or it has no
worse than you know, like even just the Lakers as
an example, like if the Bucks were willing to take
on who has like two years left on their deal
with the Lakers, that's just sort of like meh money,
or maybe it's more empty money, like could you get
compensated for if the Lakers wanted Bobby Portis and we're
giving you Maxi Kliba just as an example, it's like
what are they giving you to go from that? I
think the Bucks's gap year is unconventional, so I just
don't like it. The phrasing is wrong, and you're right,
there's probably been a lack of context. I've seen too
much of it built around you use the mid level,
use the BA, and you have these young guys and
like that's how you bring yourself back. I think it's
really more about can you position yourself to open slash
acquire more assets and then what can you turn those
assets into? But I also think an important part of
it is what can you do? Is there anything you
can do to reorient the op like in Anfrey Simon's deal,
I don't Again, I don't know if that's feasible. But
Boston's really looking to cut money. If they just have
to take back Bobby Portis for Anthony Simons in that
multi team construction, that saves them what like twelve another
twelve and a half million before taxes. So that's like,
that's what I think of when I'm thinking of the
twenty five twenty six Milwaukee Bucks with you.
Speaker 2: Honest, I do have like a wild thing out here,
Like it's I don't know if I trust it, and
I haven't. I haven't really calculated this perfectly yet. So
going into twenty twenty six, assuming it's Jannis and Dame
on the books, that's fifty eight what's that? That's almost
one hundred and twenty million. What's the cab going to
be next year presumably like projected.
Speaker 1: Next year's number. So the twenty five to twenty six cap, right,
I mean the twenty seven cap. Yeah, excuse me, that's
gonna be one seventy point one million.
Speaker 2: So that's just short of being able to offer a max, right, Well, but.
Speaker 1: You have to factor in minimum roster chargers. There's gonna
be other.
Speaker 2: Right, That's that's the thing. But it's like, even even
if you disregard all that, it's just it's still like
it's still coming.
Speaker 1: To you could get You could have, like if they
really just emptied the roster of every salary and they
replaced it with rookie minimums like one point three million
whatever that number, like the zero year experience, you could
have like it'd be less than forty million in cap
space at that point, which.
Speaker 2: Is just well, see that's the issue. So basically you
have to what I think, Dame, it's like because you
know where I'm going here, you know where I'm going.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, Luka Dancic, I know where you're going. So
you would have to wipe off Dames money somehow.
Speaker 2: I take back Mega cheaper. But I think that's actually
I think what is.
Speaker 1: The important number for the bucks is so the second
apron in twenty six twenty seven is two hundred and
twenty eight point six million, Like that's what we're assuming
they want to stay under. So you do have some
wiggle room, like to retain talent that you might get
this year, or to just if you're making a big swing.
So I understand the appeal. I really think I'm just
curious to see I look at it this way. I
don't think Gianness is going to request a trade this offseason.
He would have to really sit there, excuse me, and
think they're not going to be able to do anything
next summer. But I think early on next summer, leading
into the draft, like that's kind of the inflection point
for me. Maybe maybe he does request the trade this summer,
but I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think that that's what they were by the deadline.
Speaker 1: Man, if he gets moved mid season, well, I mean no, no.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, he might demanded that the deadline, like
he might play, you know, half a season and just
like oh this is this is just off the rails.
This isn't working, and he's looking at like the projection
sholf next year and then he says no, this like
there's no way.
Speaker 1: This is all to say for me at least, I
don't see like a high percentage path back to being
a viable title contender as the Bucks kind of no
matter what happens or what they do next summer. But
I do see like when you map out all these
different things, and a lot of them, you have to
get lucky. It has to go right. You have to
nail these these signings this summer, any trades that you
have to nail them I could see a team that
is good enough to convince Jiannis to stay a little
bit longer, and that is the purpose of the gap year,
because to me, if I'm the Bucks, it's not about
actually winning another title for Yannis or being one of
the two best teams in the conference or the league.
It's how do I get good enough to entice this
guy to stay and ride this out for another two years.
So you're almost buying yourself. What's appealing for a gap
year for the Bucks is if Yannis is on board,
You've bought yourself another season of Yannis, And so it's
how do I buy another season? Apt Like it feels
like that's how they they're gaming this situation.
Speaker 2: You know what, you actually just managed to unearth what
it is that I've been I've been unable to work
this the right way, But I think you just kind
of triggered something in my mind that now makes me
think why I'm I'm slightly annoyed to this situation. It's
the it's the assumption of Giannis's continued goodwill. I think
that's the thing where everyone is like, oh, but he
loves it here, like he's gonna say he's he wants
to do this and like, yes, but he's also a
competitive freak. He absolutely wants to win. And I think
it's the assumption that oh, no, no, no, this is fine,
this is fine, that's right. I have not to be sure.
Speaker 1: I've not seen a lot of Bucks fans thinking that it's.
Speaker 2: Oh I thought I have. It's like, oh no, no,
why would he leave. It's like, well, because here's a why.
Highly highly competitive, Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: There's a clear why. It's just whether he wants to,
you know, capitalize on that. And I could see, Look,
the emotional component here absolutely matters, and it's you don't
matter anymore. Getting that getting that title is massive when
it comes to this discussion, because he will always yeah, like.
Speaker 2: They've done great building up like that emotional cachet or
whatever you want to call it, Like they've that's that's
and that's they should be credited for that. That's why
we're even having this discussion. I just think it's the
continued assumption that oh, yeah, like it's fine. That that
just bothers me because obviously we've seen before with so
many other players, if they're stuck in a situation where
the team has moment of reability whatsoever. Like they're sitting
there going, hey, what's the plan? Like Demants is a bonus?
Who is a significantly inferior player to Jhanna Sons is
like asking the Kings for a sit down, going, guys,
what are we doing? Like it's I just think it's
reasonable for someone of this caliber to be skeptical. And
I think it's the feeling of dismissiveness I think I
see from the fan base that just irks me the
wrong way.
Speaker 1: I think it's a complicated discussion to have. I think
is really what it is, and it can only be
done in forms that allow for like extended debate like
this did.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: I think we did it justice to mapping out all
the different I'm interested to see where it goes. I'm
rooting for Giannis to stay in Milwaukee.
Speaker 2: I like that.
Speaker 1: I'm still roman pick in that respect, but I also
like seeing the best players play like on the biggest
stages and not markets, I mean, like deep into the playoffs.
Speaker 2: Just to be clear, you're certainly romantic in the only
fans common section.
Speaker 1: Yes, I paint some vivid pictures in those only fans
common sections, don't I More? I think, do you have anything. Damn,
we just did two hours on Central Division teams.
Speaker 2: No, I think we got it covered. I really appreciated
like the Gianna's breakdown. Honestly, I think that was nice.
I think that was necessary because you're absolutely right, this
isn't one of those it's Camp A or Camp BE.
Look this it's a situation full of nuance.
Speaker 1: This is you guys want deep cuts and peaks behind
the curtain about This is Grant and I talk about
this all the time when we're trying to structure our content,
the hyper localization of let's say NBA coverage specifically. And
I mean this as a compliment, and I've said this
to when I have people on for the season. Look, kids,
it's gotten so good and it is so saturated that
people like you and me are just gonna be more
casually dismissed at by fans of that team because we're
not gonna provide the same We're not gonna have the
same emotional attachment, so we're not gonna provide that component
of the coverage, and then we're not covering that team
as intimately. What I will say is like this podcast
is built to be like just we're just here for
vibes and fun. We want to have fun and like
not get heated, but like we are when you talk
about toxic national coverage, like talking about Gianni's future and
what we just did is not it like if you
don't want the Steven A. Smith yelling and it's the
same debate over and over again, Like we're the alternative
to that. I still believe and I've I've kind of
seen that. I don't think people believe that there's as
much of a place for people covering the entire MBA.
I'm just using this specifically, and I think that there is,
and I think that this podcast, your podcast, like we
straddle that line of trying to do it, like try
to come from a genuine place. We're wrong all the time,
but like we have and I'm gonna say this, we
have a better snapshot view of the entire league and
of these situations at large then some of like the
localized content because we're more removed from it.
Speaker 2: They're both they.
Speaker 1: Can work in service together and yes, yes, having these discussions. Yeah,
I would say having these discussions if you want to
boil it down to like the Bucks should just trade you.
Speaker 2: Honest, they're going nowhere.
Speaker 1: It's it's just more complicated than that, Like if you like,
if that's your stance and the Bucks owned all their
draft picks moving forward, it's easier to justify right now
when he hasn't asked for out. I just there's not
much of a leg to stand on. So hopefully everybody
enjoyed that debate more. Tell them where they can find
you and all the non only fans content that you
can put.
Speaker 2: Out right, Well, you can find me over at Yeahoo's Sports.
You can find me at Forbes, and then the NPA podcast.
I love how you said that my podcast, your podcast.
It's basically become one podcast lately over the past three months.
It's the same pod, same episodes more or less where
Yeah for Yeah, I said Forbes obviously the NBA podcast
if you speak Danish, buzzer Beater, and then you can
also find me a blue sky at MSJA NBA uh And.
Speaker 1: Until next time, Just as a reminder, if you made
it all the way to the end of this, Grant
and I will be hosting Bleacher Reports Live Free Agency
Show on Monday. It'll be in their app and YouTube
channel from one pm to three pm Eastern time. That's ten.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: Look, we were we were bumped from the primetime spot.
We did the six to ten block last year. We've
been I believe we've been bumped unless they're just breaking
it down into two hour slots. So uh, and we're
moving on, moving on down show. We're succeeding downward. Is
that what? Because I still think we're doing pretty good,
but we're succeeding downward until next time. And as always
with the shoutut to the one, the only, the player
who can actually make the bucks gap year worth it,
both during the gap year and after the fact, mister
you know what mort His name Frank Nila Keina
Speaker 2: S