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True Murder with your host, 62 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:37.479 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 63 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:52.719 Good evening. This is the story of one of the 64 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:57.639 nation's most notorious wrongful convictions, that of Stephen Avery, a 65 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:01.280 Wisconsin man who spent eighteen years in prison for a 66 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:05.199 crime he did not commit. But two years after he 67 00:03:05.319 --> 00:03:08.800 was exonerated of that crime and poised to read millions 68 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:13.000 in his wrongful conviction lawsuit, Stephen Avery was arrested for 69 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:17.439 the exceptionally brutal murder of Teresa Halbach, a freelance photographer 70 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:22.240 who had gone missing several days earlier. The innocent man 71 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:25.439 had turned into a cold blooded killer or had he. 72 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:30.919 This is narrative nonfiction at its finest and a true 73 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:34.039 crime thriller. The book that we are featuring this evening 74 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:37.800 is The Innocent Killer, a true crime, a true story 75 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:42.240 of a wrongful conviction and its astonishing aftermath, with my 76 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:51.800 special guests, journalist and author and prosecutor Michael Greesback. Pardon me, 77 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:56.560 Welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to 78 00:03:56.639 --> 00:04:02.759 this interview. Michael Greesback, Hi, Dan, Thanks thanks for having 79 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:05.520 me on the show. Thank you very much. I just 80 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:08.479 got you late coming onto the program. So I just 81 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:12.159 introduced a program and read about the synopsis of the 82 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:15.520 book and what a heck of a book it is. 83 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:18.879 Welcome back to the program and glad to have you 84 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:22.199 back on this updated version of the book. So tell 85 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:27.439 us before, without giving really anything away, the last time 86 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:32.560 I interviewed you was the book was called Unreasonable Inferences. 87 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:37.399 So tell us what the new title is and what 88 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:43.439 has happened in your book writing career that this book 89 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:47.439 has been re released and updated, and tell us about 90 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:49.959 that absolutely well. 91 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:54.680 The American Bar Association developed an interest in this story 92 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:58.279 and in the book, and they wanted to republish. 93 00:04:58.399 --> 00:04:59.079 The book. 94 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:04.920 Is published by the American Bar Association, and it is 95 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:10.160 titled The Innocent Killer, A True Story of a wrongful 96 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:19.560 conviction and its astonishing aftermath. And it has some new material, 97 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:25.720 including an afterward from the Innocence Project, the Wisconsin Innocence Project, 98 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:32.600 who was responsible for the exoneration of Stephen Avery, who 99 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:38.839 was later arrested and convicted of a subsequent murderer. And 100 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:42.079 the book also has a PostScript from the victim who 101 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:47.399 survived the first crime for which mister Avery was wrongly convicted. 102 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:53.120 That's Penny Bernson. So it's a complicated tale, one that 103 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:55.639 has a lot of lessons for the criminal justice system, 104 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:59.399 I think, and one that is just hard to make 105 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:06.800 this kind of horrific story up. It really is stranger 106 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:10.240 and more frightening than fiction in a lot of ways. 107 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:14.360 Absolutely, well, let's get right to that, because the last time, 108 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:18.600 without the additional information, we could have spent at least 109 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:21.839 a couple hours. Because this is not because it's also 110 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:24.480 because of the complexity of you being a prosecutor. But 111 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:28.040 the story, like you said before, the story itself is 112 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:32.959 so spellbinding and incredible and ironic and twists and surprises 113 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:39.079 that let's get right to that now. We will concentrate 114 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:43.959 a little bit more in this interview about the aftermath 115 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:48.360 basically after Steven Avery is released. And I don't want 116 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:50.240 to jump ahead for the audience that doesn't know anything 117 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:53.360 about this case at all. So let's go back to 118 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:58.319 Penny Bernston and the beach, and let's start there. Let's 119 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:02.519 start with who she was and what was she doing 120 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:05.360 that day, and what was her routine, and tell us 121 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:09.319 a little bit about the background of the community itself 122 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:12.279 a little bit as an introduction, and then tell us 123 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:16.040 introduced Penny and what happened that faithful day on the beach? 124 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:21.759 Sure thing, Well, the date that this happened was June 125 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:28.439 twenty seventh of nineteen eighty five, So we're going in, well, 126 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:33.879 what twenty five plus years ago that the first crime happened. 127 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:36.920 And it occurred in the city where I'm a prosecutor, 128 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:41.439 in Manitowac, Wisconsin, which is between Milwaukee and Green Bay, 129 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:45.199 essentially right on the shores of Wake, Michigan. Oh. It's 130 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:48.360 a city of about fifty thousand, kind of a blue 131 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:53.800 collar town and some tourist areas as well. But that day, 132 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:59.519 back in July of nineteen eighty five, Penny Bernston, who 133 00:08:02.199 --> 00:08:09.040 ran with her husband a chocolatestionionary basically a candy store, 134 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.839 a real popular spot of ice cream parlor and tourist 135 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:17.759 attraction in its own right right downtown in our historic downtown, 136 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:21.519 and they were start of prominent members of the community. 137 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:27.000 Tom her husband his grandparents actually started the old candy 138 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:31.879 store back in the I think nineteen twenties, and Penny 139 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:37.519 was a YMCA fitness instructor in addition to running the 140 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.080 day of the operations at the candy store. She was 141 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:45.639 roughly thirty if memory serves years old, had a few children, 142 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:48.759 a young son and a young daughter, and together the 143 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:52.960 Burnston family went to the beach, the Lake Michigan Beach 144 00:08:53.759 --> 00:08:57.559 about ten miles north of Manitoac and a very isolated 145 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:01.120 stretch of a state forest called Point Beach State Forest. 146 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:06.960 Penny ran daily because she had this exercise class at 147 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:11.759 the YMCA. She was very fit, very attractive, young young woman. 148 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:17.240 She ran north from the beach into the isolated stretch, 149 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:22.480 pine trees towering pines to the left and Lake Michigan 150 00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:28.039 sparkling Lake Michigan to the right. She ran barefoot in 151 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:33.440 her bikini north along and passed the scraggly looking fella 152 00:09:34.519 --> 00:09:36.919 in street clothes. It was about eighty five degrees, but 153 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:41.360 he had street as she ran up, and she was 154 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:45.080 sort of taken aback, but he said nice day or something, 155 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:47.639 and she said, yeah, nice day for a run. But 156 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:53.000 on her way back, the scraggly looking fella in street 157 00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:56.559 clothes had walked about a mile further north, or a 158 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:59.000 half mile further north at any rate, her run was 159 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:03.360 six miles and she had made the turnaround and made 160 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:07.320 it about halfway back when she saw him again, this 161 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:10.960 time though hiding in the midst of a popular tree 162 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:16.320 close to the shoreline, and Penny knew pretty quickly that 163 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:20.840 she was in trouble. She tried to run away toward 164 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:25.200 the water. She even went into the water. He followed her. 165 00:10:25.399 --> 00:10:29.360 She was running, got up about five deep, considered diving 166 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:33.159 into the water, but then thought she drowned in a struggle, 167 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:37.039 so she angled back toward the shore and the assailant 168 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:44.480 grabbed her. A small person in stature, I think she 169 00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:49.759 was probably like one hundred five pounds, and she fought back, 170 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:53.320 struggled back, kicked everything, but he man handled her over 171 00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:59.879 the sand dunes and tore off her clothing and tried 172 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:06.159 to rape her. Penny fought back, amazing how hard she 173 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:09.639 fought back with the getting what he wanted. He beat 174 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:14.799 her to a bloody pulp. Inexplicably, really he ran away. 175 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:17.039 I don't know if he thought somebody saw him or what. 176 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:24.879 Penny was dazed, totally naked, just tried crawling if he 177 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:29.320 can imagine that, to the water, but gave up halfway 178 00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:34.759 and basically passed out for a while, just staring off 179 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:39.320 into the into the sparkling Lake Michigan waters, and then 180 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:43.039 finally made it down a half hour later to the beach. 181 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:46.960 After she came to that was time a couple in 182 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:51.840 a sailboat saw her, and you know, she was rescued. Basically, 183 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:54.120 her husband and the e MTS rushed her to the 184 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:59.039 hospital then, and she had she had received numerous various 185 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:03.240 severe injuries. So that's how all this started. 186 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:09.120 Now, maybe I'm mistaken. Wasn't there, and this is important 187 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.759 because of the at the trial, But wasn't there something 188 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:17.559 about the husband carrying her from from the beach to 189 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:20.679 the parking lot after the ambulance had or the empty 190 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:22.000 had been called. 191 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:29.279 You're you're right, the husband sent a jet ski rider 192 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:33.440 up looking for her. I mean he himself started running 193 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:40.679 north and saw her on the beach, or actually she 194 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:43.679 I'm sorry, she had already started walking back with the 195 00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:47.000 help of these two people in the sailboat who saw her. 196 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:50.320 They gave her a blanket and she was in between them, 197 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:54.519 you know, with her arms wrapped around him. Her husband 198 00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:58.360 Tom saw them as he's running north and ran up, 199 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:02.399 of course, and ended up carrying Penny part way back 200 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:05.840 to the to this park where they were, and then 201 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:09.559 the ambulance rushed her, rushed her to the to the 202 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:11.600 hospital in Mantuat. 203 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:16.679 Okay. Now, how serious were her injuries? 204 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:24.799 Yeah, Penny suffered a fractured nose, bruises all over, I 205 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:30.320 believe in eye socket fracture as well. She was admitted 206 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:35.039 to the hospital that night. Uh, the you know, a 207 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:41.200 long period of recovery here. The assailant or who the 208 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:45.919 police at that time believed or charged with the crime, 209 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:50.279 was charged with attempted first degree intentional homicide as well 210 00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:57.639 as sexual assault because there was contact despite Pennies Penny's 211 00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:02.159 efforts to prevent that, and for imprisonment as well. She 212 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:04.279 thought he had a knife, or at least he talked 213 00:14:04.279 --> 00:14:08.080 about a knife. He had banged her head up and 214 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:13.240 down on the sand, the hard sand over these dunes, 215 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:19.799 and just bloodied, badly bloodied and badly bruised in some fractures, 216 00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:20.679 but alive. 217 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:28.960 Now this is very important, and she says that she 218 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:32.600 can readily identify this guy, or she thinks she can 219 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:35.679 possibly identify him. She got a pretty good look at him. 220 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:41.000 Tell us what her description was like and how police, 221 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:44.000 how seriously police took that description. 222 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:47.480 Right, well, you know how things work in a smaller town. 223 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:51.879 It turns out the sheriff was new of the burn Sense. 224 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:56.720 Tom Bergson came to the hospital and met the sheriff, 225 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:00.840 who personally took an interest in this case and basically 226 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:03.559 told the Burnstons, no matter what, you know, this kind 227 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:05.960 of thing doesn't happen in this city. We're not going 228 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:08.360 to allow this person, whoever it is, to go free. 229 00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:11.600 We'll catch him. So right off the bat, the police 230 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:17.000 are desperate to get a person charged with this crime. 231 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:22.679 Penny very intelligent woman, very intelligent person, and took pains 232 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:25.399 during the assault to try to get a good look person, 233 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:29.559 knowing that if she survived, you know, she'd like to 234 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:35.919 obviously have the person arrested and convicted. He had a beard, though, 235 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:39.799 and anytime in police work and investigations there's facial area, 236 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:43.600 it's more difficult to really get a real good description. 237 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:47.720 But she had his eye color as hair color. She said. 238 00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:50.840 He had what we here in Wisconsin referred to as 239 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:54.159 a beer belly. It's kind of a punchy kind of guy. 240 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:57.639 She had a height of rough height, I think it 241 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:05.159 was five five six seven, and brown or sandy hair 242 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:15.440 and brown eyes. The police, irrationally, in my view, came 243 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:19.159 up with a name almost right off the bat, a 244 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:22.200 person by the name of Stephen Avery, who's the main 245 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:27.399 character in this book, both a villain and well first 246 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:30.960 a hero sort of him in a villain. But they 247 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:33.200 had their eyes on Stephen Avery. He was out on 248 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:37.279 bail for actually assaulting or attempting to assault the deputy 249 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:41.399 sheriff's wife, and the Avery clan was known to the 250 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:44.759 sheriff's department. He lived about ten miles from the beach. 251 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:49.080 But for whatever reason, they thought it sounds like Stephen Avery. 252 00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:54.799 He has appeared. Although never mind that his hair or 253 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:59.159 his eyes are blue, they're not brown, and he's short. 254 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:02.600 He's he's about five foot two versus five foot seven 255 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:06.000 or so that Penny thought her assailant was. But at 256 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.680 any rate, so the sheriff had a mug shot brought 257 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:12.720 down of mister Avery from his prior arrest a few 258 00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:17.240 months earlier, and numerous other photos, and they conducted a 259 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:22.039 photo array. Now, Dan, this was nineteen eighty five before. 260 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:26.200 Photo arrays are now done much better in the United States, 261 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:31.559 partially because of this case in terms of how things 262 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:36.319 are presented to a witness or a victim. But they 263 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:41.119 did show Penny the photos. Excuse me. First, they actually 264 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:45.599 did a composite sketch, and this is important. The composite 265 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:50.119 sketch artists from the Sheriff's department. First composite sketch he's 266 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:55.759 ever done. He received some training at Quantico FBI in Washington, 267 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:58.559 d C. But it's the first composite sketch he ever 268 00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:03.920 did on a case. He met Penny, and many people 269 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:07.319 believe that he actually looked at the mugshot of mister 270 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:11.960 Avery before he met Penny being told that he's a suspect, 271 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:16.039 which is a big no no. And he started drawing 272 00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:20.920 this artist sketch of an assailant with Penny chiming in 273 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:25.359 you know, giving him a brief description, and they ended 274 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:32.400 up with a composite sketch of someone who the picture 275 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:37.160 was later commented to be an uncanny resemblance was the 276 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:42.519 word the child judge used to mister Avery's mugshot. And 277 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:46.640 once that image was in Penny's mind, its thought, and 278 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:50.920 there was psychological testimonies from a UW University of Wisconsin 279 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:56.759 and Harvard Law and psychiatrists. Psychologist, excuse me. Once a 280 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.519 person has an image in their mind of the assailant, 281 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:06.279 that becomes their assailant from that point forward, and it 282 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:08.119 might not be the right person. But if there's a 283 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:12.119 photo array or a composite sketch like this, everything after that, 284 00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:17.680 that is the assailant in that person's mind. So when 285 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:20.559 they brought the photo array, including Avery's mud shot, up 286 00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:24.200 the penny after she did the composite sketch, she picked 287 00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:25.799 out mister Avery as her assailant. 288 00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:31.599 Now, you say they've made changes in part because of 289 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.440 a case like this, What did they do with that 290 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:38.400 photo array at that time? How would they have conducted 291 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:41.039 themselves with the photo array at that time as opposed 292 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:42.559 to now according to the new rule. 293 00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:49.119 Right, that's a good question. At that time, they put 294 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:55.200 all the photos on one sheet basicly and had the 295 00:19:55.319 --> 00:20:00.160 person look at all of them together. And oftentimes the 296 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:03.640 police would even tell the witness or the victim in 297 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.319 this case, that the suspect is in there, and they 298 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:10.319 would even have the same investigating officer, like in this 299 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:15.480 case the sheriff through the photo array, and it was 300 00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:19.960 basically the person's job would be to sort of confirm 301 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:24.960 for the police that there is first of all a suspect, 302 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:29.039 that one of these people is the suspect. That's the 303 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:33.480 first thing, and then you know, just pick out the 304 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:39.559 one that's sort of in their mind. Now, partially because 305 00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:41.960 of the Avery Task Force, which we'll get to later, 306 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:46.200 and other cases throughout the United States too, there are 307 00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:52.240 new policies and procedures where they sequentially show the suspects 308 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.079 to the victim or to the witness. So it's one 309 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.160 at a time. It's not here six or seven people. 310 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:02.039 Can you pick up one and then it's not so 311 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:05.680 much a comparison between six or seven to see who 312 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:09.000 looks most like this aspect, but now it's is this 313 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:14.039 the person? Also, the best practice is not to have 314 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.240 the investigating officer but a different officer who doesn't even 315 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:21.359 know about the case of the suspect conductive photo array. 316 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:25.480 So those are two big changes. And you never ever 317 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:29.839 tell a witness or a victim that the suspect is 318 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:34.000 in this lineup, that they have a suspect in mine, 319 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:37.279 because then the victim's job is sorted to confirm for 320 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:40.359 the police and the victim. You know, let's face it, 321 00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:42.519 we all think, oh, the police know what they're doing, 322 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:44.680 they care, they want to get this guy. And I'm 323 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:46.680 sure they got it right. They know so much more 324 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:49.079 and I just want to make sure I help out. 325 00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:53.640 So things have improved quite a bit on photo or rays, 326 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:54.240 Thank goodness. 327 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.319 Now I want to know and you don't really you know, 328 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:02.960 really pointed out in the book too much, but I mean, 329 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:06.000 I think it's important when you talk about, you know, 330 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:09.160 that they didn't grab this suspect out of thin air, 331 00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:12.440 even though we will see that they have had no 332 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:16.680 real evidence, but that the idea that he was and 333 00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:19.799 tell us about the actual charges that. 334 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:22.279 He Hello, it is Ryan and we could all use 335 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:24.599 an extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just 336 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:27.000 to make up for things like sitting in traffic doing 337 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:30.079 the dishes, counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. 338 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:32.880 That is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino. 339 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:36.319 Chumbuck Casino has all your favorite social casino style games 340 00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:40.480 you can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses. 341 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:43.000 That's your brighten your day, Lowe actually a lot, so 342 00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:46.480 sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. 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We make 355 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:20.119 chicken chicken and participating in US restaurants. Price may vary. 356 00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:24.559 He was on bail four at this time, involving the 357 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:28.200 deputy's wife. Tell Us exactly the kind of crimes it 358 00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:33.640 might just might affect the sheriff enough to frame an 359 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:34.200 innocent man. 360 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:39.680 You bet well. Mister Avery was one messed up individual. 361 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:46.279 The crime for which he was on bail was basically 362 00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:52.640 getting into his pickup truck rushing down the street the 363 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:56.519 country road he lived on after his neighbor, who's the 364 00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:00.799 sheriff's deputy's wife, guide in her car to go to 365 00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:02.799 work at six in the morning, and he would do 366 00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:06.440 this repeatedly. He would watch her as she got out 367 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:12.160 morning after morning. He knew when she'd leave he would 368 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:16.720 be naked. One time even ran into the road naked 369 00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:22.079 in front of her. He on this particular occasion, got 370 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:26.640 in his truck, got up to highway speeds behind her, 371 00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:30.839 rammed into her car. His pickup truck into her car. 372 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:36.079 She lost control for momentarily, but was able to regain 373 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:41.759 control pulled the car over. He approached her Stephen Avery, 374 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:47.279 the suspect in the other case, with a rifle excuse me, 375 00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:49.960 a shotgun. He approached her with a shotgun, held it 376 00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:54.920 to her head. He wanted her to get into his car. 377 00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:58.759 He was clearly going to assault her. She pointed to 378 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.519 the back seat and said, my one year old babies back. 379 00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:06.200 So I'm dropping my daughter us at my grandmother or 380 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.079 my mother's for babysitting before I get to work. And 381 00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:11.559 if you take me, this baby will freeze. And this 382 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.799 was January in Wisconsin. Maybe not quite as bad as Winnipeg, 383 00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:23.960 but close and and avery. You know, let's give a 384 00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:26.279 little credit where credit is due. Even he had some 385 00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:30.839 some standard below which he wouldn't go. He let her go, 386 00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:34.599 but the police, you know, she knew exactly who he was. 387 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:40.400 He was arrested, charged with all kinds of curious crimes 388 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:46.119 and was on bail somehow posted well, bail was only 389 00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:49.359 set at five thousand cash, and he came up or 390 00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:52.240 his parents came up with the five thousand cash bail, 391 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:55.400 so he was free this next summer, at the time 392 00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:59.160 that Penny burns and was was assaulted. 393 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:04.519 In terms of crimes because what you say in the book, 394 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:07.039 and again I got to asked a question why, because 395 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:09.319 it doesn't seem to be completely explained to me that 396 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:14.359 there seemed to be some evidence that he was likely 397 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:17.880 to even to rape this woman. Did he have a 398 00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:21.599 background of other sexual offenses other than again, I mean 399 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:27.799 not to downplay exposing yourself to people intentionally either. But 400 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:32.079 was there a psychological element to this? Tell us a 401 00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:36.599