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can do what I'm doing with doctor Johnson on two

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hundred Years Together and everything else, the things that Thomas

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and I are doing together on condinal philosophy, it's all

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dot com. Everything's there. I want to welcome everyone back

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to the Peaking Yona show. We are back. Thomas is

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here and we are starting a new series today, Thomas

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take you to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're gonna be discussing the Thirty Years War, Which

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isn't it just a subject matter of trivial interest to historians.

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It was the forum event of the European modern era

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until World War Two, and even as recently as the sixties.

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In the Buddhist Republic, they polled university educated people from

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presumably different walks of life, and they said, what was

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the most catastrophic event ever to befall Germany? And worse

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than World War One, worse than the Bubonic plague, worse

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than even the Weimar starvation years? Was a thirty Years

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War and into the Third Reich era. It's interesting Gerbels, Spear,

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and the Fure himself all referenced the Thirty Years work

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consistently in public addresses. Okay, all told that it killed

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between eight and twelve million people, which was a massive

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attrition rate, a huge amount of a huge percentage which

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were civilians. The battle ground was the German kingdoms, and

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it truly was a war fought by It truly was

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a European civil war by direct intervention and by proxy.

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England famously and significantly set it out, but between forty

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and sixty thousand Englishmen went to fight for the Protestants.

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And Hitler's take on this was interesting, to say the least.

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He said that Germany, first of all, it was destroyed

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and it never truly recovered until the Bismarck era, which

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I think is inarguable, however you feel about the declarant

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He also said that the sort of organic distribution of culture,

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truly culture bearing elements in Germany presumably the purest of

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the of the Indo European stratum. He said that populations

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were scattered to the four wins, and there was such

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catastrophic losses which weren't evenly distributed, that historical memory was compromised,

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as well as cultural habit and learning. And this is

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one reason why the Europeans had been set back so

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much relative to the nascent superpowers, but particularly America. You know,

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obviously the Habsburg Austrian Hitler was going to have a

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sort of deep historical perspective on these things. But I

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think that that's an account of the historical record that

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needs to be taken seriously, whether one accepts or rejects it.

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Also there's this concept, and thankfully there's been a lot

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more intelligent scholarship than the Thirty Years War, even from

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relatively mainstream historians. Traditionally, the way it was taught to people,

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even at advanced graduate level was that, oh, well, this

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was just a religious war of sectarian origin. That's the

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wrong way to look at it. Obviously, confessional aspects can't

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really be extricated from high politics, particularly in that era.

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But something I emphasize in my own manuscript, which I

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always say, deals with this conflict, because the Peace of

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Westphalia it wasn't a single tree. That's why it's called

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it was FAILI in peace and we'll get to that.

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That's when the modern state system begins. But there there

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wasn't There wasn't that. There wasn't a quote Protestant Church,

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and this kind of conceptual misunderstanding in doors to this day,

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even when people like Michael Jones I'll talk about Protestantism

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like it's some mirror of the Roman Catholic Church or something.

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Lutherans and Calvinists had nothing in common other than opposition

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to the papacy, and in some localized theaters they fought

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each other. This one Lutheran theologian of the era. He

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famously said that he basically called us the Taliban. He

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said that the dragon of Calvinism is as insidious as

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the Mohammedians. Okay. And for example, one of the things

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Calvinists were prone to, particularly as emotions and confessional passions

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were at a high because of active warfare, Calvinist partisans

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they'd smash icons to say, see, this is idolatry, This

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object has no power, otherwise God's wrath would intervene. Lutherans

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would never have done something like that. There's I mean,

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there's there's Lutheran sures this day that are actively confessional,

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you know. But even those that place deliberate distance and

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in terms of their liturgy and ritual between their own

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congregations and Catholic practices, they they revered icons and and

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relics for historical reasons, you know, So you can't. Then

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there was this minority faction in uh Transylvania and Moldovia

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who identified as they were this ethnic minority population of

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indigenous Slabs most of them, but they identified as Unitarian.

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And now there's nothing in common with like the Faue

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Church of today. There were these people who rejected the

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trinitarian concept of of God. Okay, they were obviously a

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minor player, But my point being, there was not this

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binary political or sectarian diet, you know, because England and

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Scotland and Ireland didn't play a direct role in this.

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I mean they did by proxy, and plenty of Englishman,

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Irishmen and Scotsmen did fight on the continent. But I

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believe because Britain wasn't impacted, that's one of the reasons why.

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And tragically people never truly lived to live together along

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sectarian line and this didn't resolve until the end of

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the twentieth century in Britain, which.

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Speaker 1: Is a.

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Speaker 2: Speculative, but I think there's also something too that postulate,

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but that's something of a digression. And also, finally, I

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don't think people fully realize that agreed of Habsburg power

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to this day in the present day. I mean, the

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Holy Roman Empire, it wasn't just a contrivance. I know

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there's the famous I can't remember who the sources of

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the statement, but the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy,

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nor Roman, nor an empire. Okay, it wasn't just a

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ceremonial structure. It had incredible power, and no small measure,

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because the Habsburgs dominated it, which meant the Habsburgs dominated Europe.

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Because the way to think of the Holy Roman Empire

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is that as the political nucleus of Europe was defested

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from Rome, it became situated in what's now Germany, and

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drawing upon not just there, you know, there the patronage

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of the of the Roman Catholic Church, but also aiming

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to derive legitimacy from an understanding of historical continuity, you know,

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the understanding was that this is this is this is

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the new Rome, this is the new imperial seat. And

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the Habsburgs also Spain. At that time, the Spanish Habsburgs

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controlled Spain, which was the closest thing to a superpower

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in the seventeenth century. And the Spanish Habsburgs and the

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Holy Roman Habsburgs and the Austrian Habsburgs, the German Habsburgs

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if you were, if you will, they weren't formally allied,

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but on all serious matters of politics they always found

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themselves making common cause, you know. So the end of

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the truly feudal structure. There's a reason why the Peacelessphilia

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is identified as the beginning of the modern state system.

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And it's not just for structural reasons or because the

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conceptual bias of biases of Whig historians, who who can

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who kind of can failate this pastiche of progressive linear

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development in the astoro of a record. You know, this

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really was the end of one political reality at what

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amount of planetary scale and the emergence of a new one.

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And it's not reducible to to the sectarian hostilities or

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court intrigues of this byzantine you know, arrangement of duchies

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and principalities and things. Those aspects obviously played into it,

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but it's more common located in that this is this

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is an unbelievably massive topic. So I'm gonna be jumping

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around a bit, probably, and I always take notes extensively

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something my data points are at my immediate disposal. But

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I don't like write out narratives. So if I'm jumping

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around a lot, I forgive me for that. My alibi

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is that's the nature of the subject matter. The thirty

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years were again it for context too, And then I'll

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move on from the kind of hard and fast data record,

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you know, parts of what's modern day Germany as we

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think of it. They there was there was this highest

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fifty attrition or more. You know. So again this was

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comparable obviously, not in terms of the cultural destruction wrought

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by enduring occupation and you know, the the global political

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order of the twenty to twenty first century, but in

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terms of raw attrition, this was as destructive as World

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War Two to the Germans as a people. You know,

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the origins such that there is a single origin point,

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and I think this is fair. The Bohemian Revolt is

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cited as the opening salvos of the Thirty Years War,

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and the revolt itself started because of the defenstration of Prague.

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Those that don't know, defenstration is a fancy word for

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throwing somebody out a window. Okay. Now this begs the

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question as the who got thrown out the window? On

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Wednesday December twenty third or May twenty third, sixteen eighteen,

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a representative of the Halfsburg Court named vill M Slavata

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he in a a delegation from the Bohemian Treasury as

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well as a Supreme Court. He was a Supreme Court

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judge and he was president of the Bohemian Treasury. Okay,

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and he he spent his entire political career, serving the

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Habsburg dynasty directly. He was married to an heiress Halfsburg heiress,

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which made him one of the richest men in the

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entire kingdom. He was accompanied by Uh and another treasury

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representative named Yaroslav Borita van von Martinez and one other man,

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and they were seized and quite literally thrown out the

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window into a ditch below. And then Uh according to

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some accounts, the men were stabbed when they hit the

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ground Slavata sword and not been unbubbled from his belt.

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Apparently he was also stuck with his own sword. But

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incredibly all three of these guys lived. But in those days,

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among other things, tensions being incredibly high, They're being great

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concern over a looming Protestant revolt, which happened, you know,

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became the Wahemian revolt that was just mentioned. The initial

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war that traveled was that all three men had died,

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you know, And this obviously Uh provoked something of an

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over response, arguably by the by the Habsburgs. But the

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Ferdinand was for context, Ferdinand was the king of Bohemia.

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He was the Duke of Steria or the Prince of Steria.

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I can't remember his exact title, but he uh Steria

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had been something of a something of a Lutheran stronghold,

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and he'd crushed Prostenism within his domain very aggressively, and

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he was on record as saying with time that he'd

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rather see he'd rather see his kingdom destroyed than than

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for heresy to be tolerated within its borders. He was

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elected King of Bohemia by the electors in the Holy

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Holy Roman Empire in the previous May sixteen seventeen, and

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Ferdinand he declared that he would tolerate prostant religious freedoms,

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many of which were laid down by the Peace of Augsburg.

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And we'll get into what that the implications that were,

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but owing to his it was a record of persecuting

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Protestants and outright crushing nass and Protestant revolts. There was

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a great concern over what his tenure would look like.

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This led to a very conspiratorial development whereby Protestant nobles,

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the Czech nobility of Bohemian particular, were very very anti

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Catholic and their sensibility they determined like now was the

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time to rebel. They offered the crown to the man

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who became known as Frederick the First, Frederick the Palatine.

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The Czech noble estates chose Frederick primarily because he was

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the leader of the Protestant Union, which was a military

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alliance founded by his father. The charter of which, or

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the treaty of which, declared that all signatories and the

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kingdoms and duchies they represented, you know, would come to

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the aid of any Protestant community. Under result, they'd come

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to their collective defense. And the big hope was that

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when war arrived, James the sixth of Scotland and James

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the First of England, King James, the hope was that

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he would come to the aid of the Protestant Union

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and you know, bring his military might to bear, not

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just for the sake of you know, the faith, but

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because he was Frederick's father in law. This was not forthcoming.

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King James advised Frederick against taking the crown, and his

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notion was, you can't you know, a takeover from the

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Habsburgs is going to lead to a general state of war,

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you know, and you can't win that. James realized coming

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to the defense of coming to the defense of a

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Protestant coalition on the continent. Maywell Lee do you know,

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open ustilities with France and or Spain, which were periodically

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emerged in any way, you know, But the main thing

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was that it was uh, it was it was a

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keyhote crusade, you know, and this, uh, this led to

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something ement during breach. I think between uh the continent

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and in England. You know, I'm not I'm not subsisting

236
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:44,359
as any approximate cause between these events, and that Germanophobia

237
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,839
and the foolishness of UH people advanced a tart centuries later,

238
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:58,440
but it UH England kind of withdrew into itself visa

239
00:22:58,519 --> 00:23:06,519
be the continent. And I think had there been, had

240
00:23:06,519 --> 00:23:13,000
there been more of a common front against the papacy,

241
00:23:13,079 --> 00:23:17,640
that would have been different, but even something short of

242
00:23:18,319 --> 00:23:34,559
open military alliance. But the it was. On August nineteenth,

243
00:23:34,839 --> 00:23:40,000
the Bohemia States declared that they were re sending their

244
00:23:40,039 --> 00:23:49,079
recognition of Ferdinand's election, you know, concomaly declaring that Frederick

245
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:58,839
was their king. Fernand was subsequently elected Holy Roman Emperor

246
00:24:01,599 --> 00:24:06,160
nine days later, which made war inevitable if Frederick accepted

247
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:17,559
the Bohemian crown in lieu of bowing out with something

248
00:24:17,599 --> 00:24:26,920
approaching honor, and he made very well have done that

249
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,880
as most of his In addition to being snubbed by

250
00:24:31,319 --> 00:24:35,640
his father and law James, almost all of Frederick's advisory

251
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:43,160
cabinet urged him to reject it, including the Duke of Savoy. However,

252
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:48,160
who he did enjoy backing from was Maurice of Orange

253
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:55,039
and Christian of Anahalt, both of whom commanded substantial military

254
00:24:55,039 --> 00:24:57,920
forces in their own right, and the Dutch at that

255
00:24:58,039 --> 00:25:03,759
time they had very full coffers, you know, and we're

256
00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:07,000
a juggernaut in maritime trade as well as having a

257
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:12,480
lot of political clout. They basically offered an open ended

258
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:21,480
guarantee to the Protestant Union to purchase weapons and munitions,

259
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,079
and the thought was among the Dutch as well as Frederick,

260
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:31,599
that this would facilitate at long last a wider support

261
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,880
in Central Europe in the Protestant Lands, if not a

262
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:42,039
general uprising. This was not forthcoming in substantial measure, because

263
00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:45,160
even people who had contempt for the Habsburgs, even people

264
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:50,799
who didn't view the de facto reign and stewardship at

265
00:25:50,839 --> 00:25:56,119
the Catholic Church over Europe, rejecting an elected Holy Roman emperor,

266
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,680
that was not alliging people willing to cross regardless of

267
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:06,880
their confessional allegiance, and at placed one in a precarious position.

268
00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:10,200
There was no going back from that, you know, and

269
00:26:10,279 --> 00:26:17,880
obviously two in a sectarian coded war, one can't expect

270
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,240
any quarter if they end up on a losing side.

271
00:26:20,759 --> 00:26:23,880
But on top of that, you'll be you and all

272
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,200
your men will be slaughtered as brigands as if you

273
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:32,400
know your your your causes belly involved rejecting a legitimate,

274
00:26:33,559 --> 00:26:44,559
legally elected ruler. It just wasn't done, you know. Let

275
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:53,240
me find my place here now. One of the reasons

276
00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:58,680
why this was significant, well, the reasons why we know

277
00:26:58,759 --> 00:27:04,319
so much about the Thirty Years War. The seventeenth century

278
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,160
is kind of viewed as the first media revolution, because

279
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,279
that's when a media that as we can properly think

280
00:27:09,319 --> 00:27:11,519
of it came about. Even before you know, the wide

281
00:27:11,559 --> 00:27:15,000
availability of a modern printing press, there was just a

282
00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:18,920
tremendous amount of documentation about the battlefield situation, you know,

283
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,200
by literate people, and at that time, still in the continent,

284
00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:26,160
you know, monasteries, among other things, functioned as repositories of

285
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:31,960
literacy and record keeping. Well pretty much everywhere that became

286
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,400
a battle space had a monastery or an abbey in proximity.

287
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:44,039
And because this conflict dragged on for so long and

288
00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:49,359
there was so much punctuated violence in these locales that

289
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,119
ultimately became contested, there was just a whole lot of

290
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,000
there's a whole lot of documentation of what was happening,

291
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:03,680
and upon the conclusion of UH of hostilities, what we

292
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,319
can think of as the sort of earliest precursor of

293
00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:14,319
the modern newspaper emerged in the form of a report

294
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:20,720
on the on the Piece of West Failure, and UH

295
00:28:21,039 --> 00:28:25,640
the decades subsequent, the actual written Piece of West Failure,

296
00:28:26,279 --> 00:28:30,440
with many, many pages of commentary and like institute accounts

297
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:37,039
of what was underway, this became uh the equivalent of

298
00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:44,000
an international bestseller, you know, with the dozens of editions,

299
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,920
and I believe that continued for about one hundred years.

300
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,480
You know, obviously the primary audience is people in academ

301
00:28:50,559 --> 00:28:52,839
and stuff, but that that was basically unheard of other

302
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,000
than other other than you know, the Bible. If you're

303
00:28:56,039 --> 00:29:00,960
talking about, UH, you know, something pretty use that scale.

304
00:29:01,599 --> 00:29:06,039
You know, mass production wasn't possible then, but you know, this, uh, this,

305
00:29:06,039 --> 00:29:12,839
this was this was remarkable for all kinds of reasons. Now,

306
00:29:15,119 --> 00:29:26,920
something I think is UH very important and isn't really

307
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,640
fleshed out enough. With a handful of exceptions. There's a

308
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:36,319
couple of books that deal with it. But the the

309
00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:43,720
Habsburg experience of maintaining the continental piece, this was very

310
00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:47,519
much colored, I think UH in a way that was

311
00:29:47,599 --> 00:29:51,720
counterproductive in terms of developing a meaningful picture of the

312
00:29:51,759 --> 00:29:56,440
strategic situation by the conflicts the Hasburgs. It fought against

313
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:03,240
the Turks, and make no mistake, the Ottomans were by

314
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,640
no means and decline at the turn of the seventeenth century.

315
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:17,480
The successors of Suliman the Magnificent weren't. They didn't have

316
00:30:17,559 --> 00:30:23,880
nearly his mandate nor his power, but the Ottomans still

317
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,319
controlled a massive amount of territory. They had a mighty

318
00:30:28,359 --> 00:30:38,359
military apparatus. They were then the primary JEO strategic threat

319
00:30:38,359 --> 00:30:45,079
to Europe, and in the first phase of hostilities in

320
00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:48,240
the Thirty Years War, almost all the Hasburg officers had

321
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,799
cut their combat teeth and what was called the colloquially

322
00:30:52,839 --> 00:30:59,359
the Long Turkish War or the Thirteen Years War, Yeah,

323
00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:04,039
fifteen three to sixteen oh six. You know, so the

324
00:31:04,119 --> 00:31:10,839
guys who'd been young officers in the Long Turkish War

325
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,400
you know, at the onset of hostilities in sixteen eighteen.

326
00:31:16,039 --> 00:31:18,720
You know, they were men in senior commands by that point,

327
00:31:18,839 --> 00:31:27,519
but halfsburg Lands were they were they were cause of

328
00:31:27,559 --> 00:31:35,519
Politan sectarian terms, okay. And particularly on the frontier in

329
00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:45,799
places like Transylvania and really Moldovia, Wlachia and Transylvania. You

330
00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:51,880
know the experience of Hasspurg the Hasburg's ruling these territories.

331
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,279
There's a basic stability even amids cultural distance and periodic

332
00:31:56,359 --> 00:32:01,079
tensions between these populations. Okay. And there's to the fact

333
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:08,640
of the common menace of the Ottomans. The internal politics

334
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:14,079
of Transylvania, I mean, to be clear, like it was,

335
00:32:14,119 --> 00:32:15,680
it was a piss it was. It was a patrig

336
00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:20,079
of four major populations. There was a minority of Turkish

337
00:32:20,119 --> 00:32:23,400
peasants and Eastern Slavs, who both of whom were sort

338
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:31,720
of outside of the reigning political culture. But the main

339
00:32:31,839 --> 00:32:41,400
populations were Orthodox Romanians, Calvinist Magyars, Lutheran Saxons, the Transylvanian Saxons,

340
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:47,319
and uh some self governing indigenous Slavic elements who who

341
00:32:47,359 --> 00:32:52,440
were nominally Catholic but probably abided some sort of folk

342
00:32:53,640 --> 00:33:02,000
belief system, and the Prince of Alachia was uh, it

343
00:33:02,039 --> 00:33:07,759
was the Prince of Transylvania was was basically able, with

344
00:33:07,839 --> 00:33:12,000
a handful of exceptions, to maintain these kinds of brokering

345
00:33:12,079 --> 00:33:18,640
agreements between groups, particularly the three nations of Uh, you know,

346
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:24,319
the mag Aaron Nobles, the Saxon, you know that Sex

347
00:33:24,319 --> 00:33:31,880
and German Lutherans and these Orthodox Romanians, you know, and

348
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:41,319
the this balance was somewhat enshrined by uh. What is

349
00:33:41,359 --> 00:33:44,559
known in the story cord is the Torda agreement, not

350
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:49,440
tortas like a Mexican sandwich, Torda t r d A

351
00:33:49,759 --> 00:33:55,559
that extended as a matter of law, equal rights, UH, Catholics, Lutherans,

352
00:33:55,839 --> 00:34:01,759
Calvinists and UH. This situation and the Orthodox was complicated

353
00:34:01,759 --> 00:34:04,039
because some are in communion with Rome, some weren't. But

354
00:34:05,279 --> 00:34:09,280
you know, regardless, it was it was a chart of

355
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:17,719
religious freedom that was basically observed. And you know, the

356
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:23,559
Habsburgs looked westward and they saw sectarian warfare being in

357
00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:27,079
the norm and the lands managed by their dynasties. And

358
00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:32,360
I believe they convinced themselves that they're sort of progressive

359
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:39,239
sensibility about sectarian tolerance and their confessional tolerance and you

360
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:45,840
know they're they're kind of enlightened political ethics is what,

361
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:50,639
you know, generated stability in these frontier territories. And not

362
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,880
again you know, the geo the geostrategic reality of you know,

363
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:08,079
the Ottoman threat that uh now over time to his

364
00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:21,679
game enshrined when the Transylvanian prince converted to Calvinism, and

365
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:30,719
he did so because an overwhelming number of Protestant nobles

366
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:39,679
embraced the Calvinist faith. Well. The population, the peasantry especially

367
00:35:40,159 --> 00:35:43,920
were overwhelmingly Catholic or Orthodox, and the burghers and the

368
00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:49,559
and the the commerce oriented populations, and the towns almost

369
00:35:49,679 --> 00:35:53,960
who were led by the Saxons, they were overwhelmingly Lutheran.

370
00:35:55,039 --> 00:35:59,280
You know, So this idea you can have, you can

371
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,119
have a can have a Protestant principality that's of a

372
00:36:04,199 --> 00:36:10,360
Calvinist uh reformed orientation, you know, presiding over a Lutheran

373
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,280
business class and in a Roman cab like a peasantry.

374
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,239
You know, the idea that this is workable, Oh, it

375
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,559
must owe to you know, the halfspuring system you know,

376
00:36:21,599 --> 00:36:27,000
which wasn't which was which again wasn't. Nothing to be

377
00:36:27,079 --> 00:36:32,480
extrapolated from these kinds of outlier kingdoms, you know. And

378
00:36:32,519 --> 00:36:42,320
to be clear, the u Transylvania was so called because

379
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:47,800
it's it's dense woodland. It's it's probably triple canopy. My

380
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,800
research indicates it's it's comparable to the hurtzcan Forest, if

381
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,800
not even more dense. And only about a fifth of

382
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,840
that lay under cultivation. So the population was concentrated in

383
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:07,800
these isolated pockets that was largely cut off from the

384
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,920
ability to reinforce. Okay, so you had this kind of

385
00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:15,760
the people had to take on this kind of warrior

386
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,119
ye women resensibility cont to the Turks who were a

387
00:37:21,159 --> 00:37:28,119
real threat and uh, you know they showed no quarter

388
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:37,239
to uh the Infidel. You know, that's the reality, and

389
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,920
uh the Balkans and on the frontier like this, that's

390
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,960
not there's there's moronic neocons who try and make a

391
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:49,360
whole narrative out of this, which is nonsense. But that

392
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:54,920
what I'm describing was the reality. And conditions like that

393
00:37:55,639 --> 00:38:05,440
are wonderful, like keeping the peace between sectarian and elements

394
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:10,440
and ethnic groups who otherwise would you know, be be

395
00:38:10,519 --> 00:38:18,079
at odds, you know, I mean clearly I think so

396
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:25,559
I think, uh, the Habsburg had a sense the Habsburgs

397
00:38:25,559 --> 00:38:28,119
had a sense owing to this kind of frontier experience,

398
00:38:31,119 --> 00:38:33,519
not so much that they were immune to some sort

399
00:38:33,519 --> 00:38:39,079
of sectarian revolt, but that their system had something that

400
00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:48,679
built in mechanism whereby uh, you know, a general state

401
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:53,280
of civil war would be kind of unthinkable. And another

402
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,360
thing that kind of aggravated this, you know, the Habsburgs

403
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,559
they I think people have this view of them in

404
00:39:05,599 --> 00:39:08,000
this era kind of like they. I mean, don't get

405
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,920
me wrong, I think Franz Joseph was a great man

406
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,599
and a real hero. But you know, by the nineteenth century,

407
00:39:12,599 --> 00:39:18,599
the Spanish Habsburgs were a mess and the Austrian Habsburgs

408
00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:24,000
admirable is as Franz Joseph may have been, you know,

409
00:39:24,039 --> 00:39:26,880
it was there was something clearly out of time about them,

410
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:33,079
and and very reactionary. But you know, in the seventeenth

411
00:39:33,119 --> 00:39:41,760
century they they were probably the best of European royals.

412
00:39:42,679 --> 00:39:46,920
You know, these were learned people who excelled at military

413
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:53,840
command and commerce and all the other things that a

414
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:59,719
leadership cast of of a people should, you know, be

415
00:40:00,599 --> 00:40:06,440
adept at. But they saw the writing on the wall

416
00:40:06,559 --> 00:40:12,239
in some sense that the world was changing, you know,

417
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:19,679
and particularly the politics of the continent were changing, and

418
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:26,840
this sort of complex balance of feudal interests and this

419
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:33,679
interplay between what Doumseel called the functions you know, those

420
00:40:33,679 --> 00:40:38,880
who work, those who fight, those who pray, that that

421
00:40:39,039 --> 00:40:41,920
wasn't going to endure in perpetuity. And there was already

422
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,679
crasping the show. So the leading members of the Hasburg dynasty,

423
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:56,840
they became convinced that their posterity and the survival of

424
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:02,960
the system itself dependent upon restoring as the basis, you know,

425
00:41:03,039 --> 00:41:06,519
of of of political loyalty as well as of you know,

426
00:41:06,599 --> 00:41:10,519
kind of communitarian life, you know. And and that wasn't

427
00:41:10,639 --> 00:41:18,079
entirely unrealistic, you know, not just because even uh, even

428
00:41:18,119 --> 00:41:20,719
accounting for places where there was a Catholic minority in

429
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:26,119
the ruling of states, like in Transylvania, you know, there

430
00:41:26,119 --> 00:41:30,320
there wasn't a Frostenism, was a house divided, like we

431
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,920
just talked about. And also, uh, you know, you had

432
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:44,239
a deeply religious peasantry. And even in places where you know,

433
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:55,280
the uh, the emerging mercantile class was majority Lutheran, you know,

434
00:41:55,320 --> 00:42:03,719
there was still a reverence for the historical aspects of

435
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,280
the Roman Church, you know, and there was this belief

436
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:14,639
too that ultimately, uh, cooler heads will prevail among the

437
00:42:14,639 --> 00:42:19,159
noble estates, because they've got to understand that if we

438
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,000
go to war with each other, it's just not manageable anymore.

439
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,880
You know, you can't have the leadership element at loggerheads

440
00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:34,480
and survive as as a discrete polity, you know. So

441
00:42:34,679 --> 00:42:39,599
I think there's understanding that you know, any reasonable man

442
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:45,119
understands that the real business at government is playhating the

443
00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:52,400
peasants and devising and sustaining a communitarian ethos that's coded

444
00:42:52,440 --> 00:43:00,920
into the culture, you know. And and top of that too,

445
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:06,000
there's a basic understanding owing to the politics of the

446
00:43:06,039 --> 00:43:08,840
Holy See. And I mean that's not I'm not saying

447
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,639
something bad about the Roman Church, just the reality was,

448
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,039
among other things, at the after the mirrvur Ingine era,

449
00:43:17,199 --> 00:43:20,159
the Pope became the defecto emperor of Europe, as it were,

450
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,599
because nature of bores a vacuum, you know, Like I'm

451
00:43:22,599 --> 00:43:24,559
not saying that Vatican didn't want that role, but it

452
00:43:24,599 --> 00:43:27,039
was also by necessity, you know, I think there was

453
00:43:27,039 --> 00:43:30,320
an understanding and in the minds of the Habsburgs that

454
00:43:32,199 --> 00:43:40,039
you know, a warring states, uh, paradigm, will you know,

455
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:48,519
bring everything down? Why when the cycle of violence truly

456
00:43:48,599 --> 00:43:51,599
kicked off in Earnest, the Ottomans didn't assault. That's an

457
00:43:51,599 --> 00:43:53,400
interesting question and we'll get I'm not going to get

458
00:43:53,440 --> 00:44:04,480
into that this episode. But be it as it may

459
00:44:10,159 --> 00:44:17,280
the UH and it's common too, and obviously, considering my

460
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:23,440
own heritage, I might not be truly objective on this matter.

461
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,760
There was a tendency. This has faded somewhat, at least

462
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:35,559
in mainstream accounts. Most histories of the thirty years were

463
00:44:35,599 --> 00:44:40,840
from the mid to later twentieth century. In particularly, I've

464
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,440
got this book. It's a really good book. It was

465
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:49,320
published in nineteen sixty three. Excuse me. The other claims that,

466
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:57,400
while not putting blame on the Calvinists, he he views

467
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:10,000
the the Calvinists participation in UH these sorts of rebellious

468
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,960
efforts within halfsburg Lands to be the proverbial kerosene on

469
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:20,039
the fire, because it prevented it from being a clean

470
00:45:20,159 --> 00:45:24,760
cut issue, you know. And like I said, there was

471
00:45:26,679 --> 00:45:28,480
I think I mentioned at the outset there was there

472
00:45:28,519 --> 00:45:33,159
was one Lutheran partisan writer who said, quote, the Calvinist

473
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,119
dragon is pregnant with all pregnant with all the horrors

474
00:45:36,119 --> 00:45:43,280
of Mohammedianism. You know, there was a certain fanatical fervor

475
00:45:44,559 --> 00:45:48,599
that Calvin hast brought to the table into the battlefield

476
00:45:50,039 --> 00:45:56,199
and uh led to things frankly like throwing representatives of

477
00:45:56,199 --> 00:46:03,039
the Hasburgs out the window. That it had the trappings

478
00:46:03,079 --> 00:46:11,880
of a militant cult that was being propagated for you know,

479
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:17,679
as an instrumentality of rejecting the rule of law and

480
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:27,360
the legitimacy of duly elected kings and emperors. And you know,

481
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:35,400
that's that raises alarm, as it should, you know, But

482
00:46:35,559 --> 00:46:37,840
again I'm of the belief, and don't get me wrong,

483
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,559
you know, again, I'm not I'm not saying that the

484
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,840
perspective I just described as which place as a substantial,

485
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:57,159
not blame but causal emphasis on Calvinist extremism as at

486
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:06,400
least an aggravating factor, and the depth and intensity of hostilities.

487
00:47:07,039 --> 00:47:11,159
That's not totally wrong. But I think it's important to

488
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:16,480
acknowledge that this, this wasn't a this wasn't a purely

489
00:47:16,519 --> 00:47:20,719
sectarian conflict, you know, and I don't think there are

490
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:26,840
any such things is purely sectarian conflicts. That that's always

491
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:36,920
an aspect of a greater or lesser causal relevance, but

492
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:43,360
it's never an exclusive causes Belly and I object to

493
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:47,639
when people dismissively refer to religious wars. There's this, you know,

494
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:56,840
no such thing. And speaking of which, the Calvinists, for

495
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:04,159
their part, after defenestration of Prague, the propaganda that was

496
00:48:04,199 --> 00:48:14,039
so sort of strongly tailored against them, you know, they reformed.

497
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:21,360
They came to characterize the Habsburg response as a Vatican

498
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:30,079
crusade against them, you know, and Calvinists are fond of

499
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:41,480
pointing out that idolaters, as they view it, will always

500
00:48:41,519 --> 00:48:48,440
assault the true elect. Well, you know, the crusades on

501
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:56,119
the continent were essentially always directed against Pagans, some of

502
00:48:56,199 --> 00:49:00,760
whom were engaged in truly demonic activities and things. So

503
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,199
this kind of narrative developed its own momentum. I mean,

504
00:49:03,199 --> 00:49:07,800
first of all, crusade wasn't declared against the Calvinists, even

505
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,440
those who were in open revolt. But secondly, nobody suggested.

506
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,239
I mean, there there's there's Lutherans apparently who claimed that

507
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,320
you know, they they were in dragon like the Mohammedans

508
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,280
are pregnant with the menace of Mohammedians, but nobody that

509
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,760
I know of claimed that they were worshiping the devil

510
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:35,159
or pagans. But there was you know, there wasn't The

511
00:49:35,199 --> 00:49:37,639
minds of some of these Calvinist partisans were about to

512
00:49:37,679 --> 00:49:40,840
be pogrammed. And as the war went on that that

513
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,880
that did happen. I mean that happened to Catholic people too,

514
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:49,840
who were unfortunately found themselves, you know, a sectarian minority

515
00:49:50,039 --> 00:49:55,000
on the ground. But you know, I it's a it's

516
00:49:55,039 --> 00:50:02,199
another kind of typically tragic case of potentialities in the

517
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:07,559
public mind becoming immediate reality is going going to fear,

518
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:16,480
you know, and it's a it's a fascinating story. You know.

519
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,000
That's about all I got for my introduction, and frankly,

520
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,639
I'm kind of exhausted, but I'll get into the This

521
00:50:25,679 --> 00:50:27,519
has been a very hectic week, So forgive me for

522
00:50:27,559 --> 00:50:30,239
being abrupt or or what have you, And forgive me

523
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,079
if that was too scattershot, but I I one of

524
00:50:33,119 --> 00:50:34,880
the things I's gonna do during my downtime on the

525
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:42,000
road is break down the the uh the some of

526
00:50:42,039 --> 00:50:44,639
the military aspects of this. And it's kind of a

527
00:50:44,639 --> 00:50:51,840
fascinating era, man, you know, uh I think it's uh

528
00:50:52,239 --> 00:51:00,400
what became the pike and shot era it? Uh and

529
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:06,760
the pike being the primary edged weapon. You know. That's

530
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:09,679
I got into a conversation a lot of the fellows

531
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,559
the other day. We were talking about firearms because uh,

532
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:14,599
I was talking about the buck when twenty knighte would

533
00:51:14,599 --> 00:51:17,920
just become my favorite blade. But uh, any we were

534
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,639
talking about the transition of infantry from blade of weapons

535
00:51:20,639 --> 00:51:23,440
to firearms, and I'm like, you know, and the pike

536
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:27,639
and shot era firearms were viewed as like like if

537
00:51:27,639 --> 00:51:30,519
you were a real infantryman, you you you killed people

538
00:51:30,559 --> 00:51:32,840
with a pike. You ran them, I mean running somebody

539
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:37,719
through the pike. I mean that's that's that's pretty like

540
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,559
they're their blood will splash in your face. I mean

541
00:51:41,199 --> 00:51:46,440
there's no joke. But it's interesting how uh that kind

542
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:52,920
of slow transition, uh to the the rifle, uh becoming

543
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:59,639
the the infantrymen's stock in trade. I guess it. We're

544
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,599
I mean one of the The British always made a

545
00:52:02,639 --> 00:52:05,000
big deal. You got to retain the bayonet. I mean

546
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:09,360
bayonets are useful, you know to this day. And uh,

547
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,119
I know the Marines in the army brought back the

548
00:52:12,159 --> 00:52:15,079
Bayonet after a Brief Hiatus and uh a goose have

549
00:52:15,199 --> 00:52:17,480
Hasfard's book The Short Time is one of the chapters

550
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,360
called the Spirit of the Bayonet. But it that's that's

551
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,039
that's the legacy of what we're talking about, is uh,

552
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,519
you know, you got uh the imageryment has to be

553
00:52:27,679 --> 00:52:32,400
he's got to be trained and capable of killing with

554
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,000
cold steel, and he's also got to understand the spiritual

555
00:52:35,039 --> 00:52:39,679
significance of that. You know. I find that profound, you know,

556
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,280
And I'm not at base a military hound or something.

557
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,199
I just I just I think it's significant. But yeah, no,

558
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,840
that's Uh. I hope this was informative, and uh, if

559
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,599
not in lightning, I don't promise it light but I

560
00:52:53,599 --> 00:52:56,480
hope I I hope I convey information in a way

561
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:58,039
that is useful.

562
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: All right, good intro, and uh, you know, I guess

563
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,400
we'll probably pick this up back after you get off

564
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:09,039
the road. Everybody go to Thomas the Substack. It's real

565
00:53:09,119 --> 00:53:12,760
Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com and you

566
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:17,159
can connect to him from anywhere into all other places

567
00:53:17,199 --> 00:53:24,239
from there. That's his center of operations. So yeah, begins

568
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:28,320
that is that where it happens.

569
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,599
Speaker 2: That's that's where it originates at least line. Yeah, no,

570
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,760
thank you man. I'll only be gone, uh, I'll only

571
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:35,800
be gone like four or five days, so it won't

572
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,159
be like a marathon trip like the last, like a

573
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,920
Thomas tour. But no, I really appreciate it, man, and

574
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,559
I'll yeah, I'm moving forward to this series as it

575
00:53:44,599 --> 00:53:44,760
gets

576
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 1: Under week absolutely all right, thank you, talk soon a

577
00:53:48,360 --> 00:54:25,400
couple of days