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The year is nineteen seventeen, less 57 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:28.120 than two decades into the new century, and already the 58 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:30.840 Great War is occurring in the muddy fields of France. 59 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:34.639 Soon there will be the Spanish Influenza, which will kill 60 00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:39.039 many more millions, an inauspicious start to a new millennium, 61 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:42.360 to be sure. In one of Canada's largest cities, Toronto, 62 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:45.240 there has been a murder of cab driver is found 63 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:49.560 dead in West End, Toronto, stabbed multiple times. The cabby's 64 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:56.719 name is Carmine Lapello aka Tony Lapello aka Tony Ross, 65 00:03:56.759 --> 00:04:02.080 an Italian Canadian. Inquests occur, but the murderer is never found. 66 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:04.879 Now we take a leap forward to the year nineteen 67 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:07.680 sixty four, when a ten year old Joe Lapello is 68 00:04:07.719 --> 00:04:11.360 going through some cardboard boxes in his parents' basement. He 69 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:14.080 finds an old photo of a handsome young man. He 70 00:04:14.159 --> 00:04:15.879 takes the picture to his father and is told that 71 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:19.639 the picture is of Joe's great uncle, Carmine Lapello. Joe's 72 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:21.560 father was only seven years old at the time of 73 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:25.079 the murder. Become entwined in a story of a young 74 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:27.920 man's undying love for a woman, which would drive him 75 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:31.480 to participate in illegal alcohol smuggling during the Prohibition era. 76 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:35.959 Carmine was self employed taxi driver who became caught up 77 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:40.639 with notorious people in a small immigrant community of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, 78 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:45.399 known as the Ward. Circumstances were changed for the worse, 79 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:48.199 turning this young man from a secretive life of crime 80 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:51.600 to that of a police informant and eventually paying the 81 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:55.720 ultimate price. In the early morning hours of July twentieth, 82 00:04:55.800 --> 00:05:00.879 nineteen seventeen, Carmine would be found brutally murdered in the street. 83 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:04.879 Followed Joseph Lapello through his discovery of this mystery as 84 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:08.680 he unravels the unsolved murder of his great uncle, Carmine Lapello. 85 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:12.600 The book that we're featuring this evening is Murder Lost 86 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:15.920 to Time, the true story of one of Canada's oldest 87 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:20.959 unsolved murders, with my special guest author Joseph A. Lopello. 88 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:24.040 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 89 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:26.240 this interview. Joseph A. Lopello. 90 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:28.800 Thank you, Dan. 91 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:34.160 Hope, I didn't mispronounce your name. Well, thank you so 92 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:39.279 much for joining me. Now, as we just alluded to 93 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:43.000 in the introduction, this was spring of nineteen sixty four. 94 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:46.720 You were asked to clean up the basement at your home. 95 00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:52.000 You found a small shoebox. You were ten years old. 96 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:54.920 Tell us what you found in that shoe box and 97 00:05:55.079 --> 00:06:00.839 what this represented in terms of your investigation into your 98 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:02.279 uncle's murder. 99 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:06.000 Well, what I found in the shoe box was various 100 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:10.560 photographs of aunts and uncles, people I all recognized. You know, 101 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:12.639 I was ten years old. We used to visit every 102 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:15.480 Sunday or weekends over at their houses. But I found 103 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:18.319 this one picture. I knew the picture was a little 104 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:21.279 bit older of a young man, and I had never 105 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:25.600 seen him before. And like you said in the introduction, 106 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:28.879 I showed it to my father and he explained to 107 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:32.439 me who he was and what had happened to him. 108 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:37.040 And I found it very curious when I found out 109 00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:40.079 that he was murdered, that it had never been solved. 110 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:48.920 I found that particularly interesting, you know. And that's my 111 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:53.279 introduction into the case. Was at that age, ten years old, 112 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:56.879 and it was quite you know. I mean, I shouldn't 113 00:06:56.920 --> 00:06:58.959 even been looking. I was supposed to be cleaning up 114 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:02.879 the chef in the basement and cleaning up the basement, 115 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:05.759 and I had just my curiosity. I was opening boxes 116 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:08.720 and seeing what was in there, and his photograph was 117 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:11.079 in there with a bunch of other photographs. 118 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:15.920 M you right too, that you said it was Your 119 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:18.600 dad said it was a murder meant for someone else. 120 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:21.519 And I didn't really want to talk about this at all, 121 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:23.600 but your mother said Carmine was just in the wrong 122 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:27.360 place at the wrong time. Now you write about ten 123 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:32.160 years after finding this photo, you meet a person named 124 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:36.639 Joseph pill. Now you're supposed to go to a bar 125 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:38.480 with your friend, but you end up at a billiard's 126 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:44.399 room at Young and Dundas and you're there about thirty. Yeah, 127 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:49.319 so a man, How does Joseph pill come you to meet? 128 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:51.040 How do you to come to meet Joseph Pill? 129 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:54.759 Well, I came to meet him like I was in 130 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:58.040 the billiard hall with my friend. We had arrived downtown 131 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:00.439 a little bit early and to kill some time before 132 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:03.000 we went to a bar, he suggested we go to 133 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:05.079 a billiard room play a couple of games, which we 134 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:08.839 did do. And we had been there half an hour 135 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:11.879 forty five minutes and I could see the entrance of 136 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:15.199 the billiard hall from where the table we were playing on. 137 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:19.360 An elderly man came in. He was in his late seventies, 138 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:24.079 and I really didn't pay any attention to him. But slowly, 139 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:27.000 but surely, he had worked his way over to the 140 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:29.519 way to the table that my friend and I were 141 00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:34.960 playing on, and he was staring at me. And I 142 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:38.759 found this quite unusual. I didn't know this man. I 143 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:43.799 couldn't recall him from anywhere. And my friend and made 144 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:46.279 a remark, Jesus, Joe, you know, it looks like the 145 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:50.039 old guy likes you, And laughing at it and everything. 146 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:52.480 It was obvious he was staring at me, wanted to 147 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:54.840 speak to me. But you know, maybe he was a 148 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:59.279 little bit shy or intimidated, you know, twenty year old kid. 149 00:09:00.039 --> 00:09:02.279 Was I going to react to him saying something to me? 150 00:09:02.360 --> 00:09:05.720 So I said hello to him, and he introduced himself 151 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:08.399 as Joseph pill and that he was and he asked 152 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:12.000 me what my name was. He says, he's your name, Lapello. 153 00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:15.000 And I was shocked that he knew my name because 154 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:17.799 I didn't know him. I said, yes, it is, and 155 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:21.200 he says, I knew. He said my uncle, well it is. 156 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:25.639 In fact, Carmine was my great uncle, and he said 157 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:29.320 I knew him. I grew up with Weir school school 158 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.360 chums from a very early age, from about when they 159 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:35.279 were six years old or something, and they didn't live 160 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:37.440 too far away, and they went to the same school. 161 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.120 And he said that he was a taxi driver and 162 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:47.080 he was with my uncle the night that the murder happened. 163 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:49.399 He was on a taxi stand in Toronto. They had 164 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:53.399 both their cars parked. They're waiting for bears. And at 165 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:57.039 the time I didn't have any preliminary knowledge on the case. 166 00:09:57.399 --> 00:10:02.360 So I didn't know what question to ask him about 167 00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:06.519 my great uncle except maybe his personality what had happened. 168 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:11.279 And the recurring response I kept getting from Joseph Pill 169 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:14.240 was they never found out who did it. They never 170 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:16.759 found out they never caught the people that did it. 171 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:23.080 And Heed he seemed very upset about that, like very 172 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:26.440 personally upset about it. You know, he was close to 173 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:31.519 Carmine and everything. And I often got the feeling when 174 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:34.480 I look back at that meeting between him and I, 175 00:10:34.759 --> 00:10:38.039 that was the only person I ever spoke to who 176 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:42.039 was alive about the knowing my great uncle or anything 177 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:50.720 that he had carried some guilt about it, you know, 178 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:54.840 some remorse about maybe the way he behaved or did 179 00:10:55.360 --> 00:11:01.519 back then concerning the whole murder. So that was one 180 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:04.960 meeting I had with him, and I never saw him again. 181 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:08.559 I had went down to that billiard room because he 182 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:11.360 said he lived in the area downtown, he lived there 183 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:15.480 all his life, and that he comes into the billiard 184 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:19.080 room frequently. I didn't get a phone number or anything 185 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:21.279 from him. I just thought i'd see him again. I 186 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:26.480 never did. But he was an eyewitness to the events 187 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:30.399 that happened on a taxi stand that night. 188 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:37.240 You didn't know what the importance was, and you felt 189 00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:39.960 at that time, you write, that there was just something 190 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:42.399 more he wanted to say, and there was certainly, as 191 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:45.000 you just said, there was a certain amount of regret, 192 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:47.799 it seemed. But you didn't know anything about the case 193 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:51.159 really at that time, so you didn't have any reference 194 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:52.919 for what he was saying, in any contact for what 195 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:55.600 he was saying at that time. And of course you 196 00:11:55.679 --> 00:11:57.440 never got to speak to him again or see him. 197 00:11:57.879 --> 00:12:01.320 Your mother passes away in two thousand and five, so 198 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:06.120 you have to go through these through boxes of mementos. 199 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:09.000 What do you find in two thousand and. 200 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:13.519 Five, I find Carmine's picture again in the same shoe 201 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:17.039 in the same shoe box that I had founded it 202 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:20.960 in nineteen sixty four, when I was ten years old, 203 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:29.960 And again it just, you know, it rekindled some memories 204 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:32.480 of when I was ten years old, speaking to my 205 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:35.039 parents about it, when I was twenty years old and 206 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:40.240 I met Joseph Pill, and in between, you know, two 207 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:46.759 the time I met Joseph Pill was nineteen seventy four, 208 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:49.240 and in between two thousand and five, I mean, it 209 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:52.519 came to mind, the case came to mind a few times, 210 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:56.039 but I was, you know, preoccupied with my own life, 211 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:58.960 you know, and didn't really have any time to spend 212 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:04.360 on it, delving into the case and doing more research 213 00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:04.799 on it. 214 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:10.200 Right, you write that you didn't. You took another five 215 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:15.799 years after this, twenty ten. You were more ready to 216 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:20.240 delve into this mystery. Of course, you realize Joseph pill 217 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:23.639 would be dead by that time. How did you start 218 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:27.039 your investigation? Where did it start and. 219 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:29.759 What did you point? The first thing I did was 220 00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:34.679 I googled his name into my computer, Carmine's name, the victim, 221 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:40.159 and there was a website in Canada for murdered taxi drivers, 222 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:43.000 and sure enough, his name was the first one on 223 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:47.440 the list in nineteen seventeen. And it gave a brief 224 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:55.080 outline into the case, and it detailed the date it happened, 225 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:58.559 the time where the body was found and everything. But 226 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:04.000 at the end of the article it also said that 227 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:09.759 some guilt or blame for the murder was placed on 228 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:15.440 a man, a sailor in Britain who had lived in 229 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:18.440 Canada at the time. It didn't mention his name or 230 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:25.080 anything like that, but I just thought in nineteen twenty 231 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:29.519 three he was convicted of a murdering a taxi driver 232 00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:35.320 in London, England, and the newspaper here he was sentenced 233 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:38.159 to death, but his death sentence was later commuted by 234 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:42.440 an act of Parliament based on the flimsy evidence that 235 00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:46.960 convicted him, very shaky evidence, it was. I don't think 236 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.000 he was guilty at all, but the newspaper here picked 237 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:53.240 up on its Toronto Star. I think it sort of 238 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:57.360 laid the blame for my great uncle's murder on him, 239 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:00.759 you know. And then so I reached searched him as 240 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:04.080 as well as I could, and founder and I had 241 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:08.159 to eliminate him as a suspect. He just did not 242 00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:13.399 fit the profile of somebody that would that would be 243 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:15.720 involved in a heinous murder like this. 244 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:20.840 You found out that your uncle great uncle was owner 245 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:27.360 of two cars, one driven by another employee and another employee. 246 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:31.000 What did you find out about the registration for those cars? However, 247 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:35.240 before we talk about the actual what you find out 248 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:43.919 about Friday, July nineteenth, the day before all pardon me, yes, well, 249 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:50.159 July nineteenth, just before midnight, eleven thirty and with fellow 250 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.679 taxi driver Joseph phil sitting in Carmine's car, tell us 251 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:56.240 a little bit about just the what you found about 252 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:01.600 the ownership of these cars before we talk about July nineteenth, 253 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:05.279 eleven thirty at the taxi driver staff with Joseph Pilboms. 254 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:11.720 Okay, well, it had been said in the newspaper in 255 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:15.399 a few articles, that Carmine was the owner of these 256 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:19.399 two cars, but the cars were after registered in another 257 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:26.679 man's name, a man at Edgar Bridges, I think Edgar Bridges, 258 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:29.720 and the cars were registered in his name. What I 259 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:33.879 thought that very odd, like, why would Carmine be the 260 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:37.279 owner of two taxis and have them in somebody else's name? 261 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:40.600 At first it made no sense to me, but later 262 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:45.440 on I found out the reason for that, and it 263 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:49.000 became very questionable to me whether or not Carmine was 264 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:53.720 the real owner of these cars. Because one year prior 265 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:58.000 to supposedly going into the taxi business, well, the price 266 00:16:58.039 --> 00:17:00.919 of those two taxi cabs the time might have been 267 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:04.960 between twelve hundred and two thousand dollars. I knew Carmine's 268 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:09.680 parents fruit were immigrants, they were laborers. They didn't have 269 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:12.880 that type of money to be able to lend to 270 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:18.119 Carmine so he could buy these cars. So I began 271 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:20.200 to question, well, where did this money, where did he 272 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:22.720 get this money to buy these cars? And were they 273 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:28.319 even his cars? Were that I came to believe and 274 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:32.559 conclude that they were not his cars? He said he 275 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:36.599 was the owner. He had business cards written up with 276 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:41.880 the number of his taxi cabs in case anybody wanted 277 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:44.920 to call the dispatch to have him pick up a fare. 278 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:50.119 But I mean, the only assets in the taxi business 279 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:53.079 are the cars. Why would you put them in somebody 280 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:55.960 else's name. The only reason to do that is if 281 00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.079 you were up to something illegal with them, and in 282 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:04.160 the event you were caught, the real owner of the 283 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.359 car would be able to come to court and say, well, 284 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:11.440 you know, they're my cars, and they're my taxis and 285 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:13.400 he was just working for me and I had no 286 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:16.440 idea what he was doing. And then the court would 287 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:20.359 have to release those those cars back to the original 288 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:22.759 owner because they wouldn't be able to prove that he 289 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:26.279 had knowledge that they were being used for an illegal purpose. 290 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:30.279 That's the only thing I could conclude by that. But 291 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:34.960 I mean prior to nineteen sixteen, one year before that, 292 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:40.079 he was borrowing money from his estranged wife, Carmi, and 293 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:42.599 I don't think he had paid it back. So if 294 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:45.319 he was borrowing, and it was a very small amount 295 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:48.880 by today's standards, only fifty or one hundred dollars, but 296 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:50.559 back then that was a lot of money. If he 297 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:53.839 couldn't pay that back, where was he getting in the money, 298 00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:56.559 you know, a couple of thousand dollars to buy these 299 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:59.799 two cars and to go into business. It just didn't 300 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:02.079 make You were getting it up to me, Dan, you. 301 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:04.759 Know, yeah, you were getting a better clearer picture of 302 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:06.799 what was going on with your great uncle and the 303 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:13.240 business he was undertaking. Let's as you describe, describe for us, 304 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:18.880 walk us through that night eleven thirty July nineteenth, close 305 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:23.480 to midnight, nineteen seventeen, Joseph Pill is sitting in Carmine's 306 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:28.319 car at Toronto Street near King Edward Hotel. What was 307 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:34.559 today King Edward Hotel? Tell us about what Joseph Pill says, 308 00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:39.880 especially initially, about who he sees and what these people, 309 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:42.440 this man and woman do that night. 310 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:46.920 Okay, Well, the man and woman approached the taxi stand 311 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:51.759 from the east, walking along King Street, and right at 312 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:54.799 the corner of King and Toronto Street is a taxi stands. 313 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:56.640 As a matter of fact that there's still a taxi 314 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:01.920 stand there over one hundred years later. And as they approached, 315 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:05.240 the woman went to the driver's side of the car 316 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:09.279 where Carmine was sitting, because Joseph Pill and him was 317 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:14.400 sitting in Carmine's car and Joseph Pill's car was behind. 318 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:18.759 And the man who came with this woman went to 319 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:22.799 the back of the taxi cab and he was he 320 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:28.119 acted very very suspicious in so far as he didn't 321 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:31.640 do any of the talking to try and hire Carmine, 322 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:35.200 and he had he was wearing a cap which was 323 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:39.640 pulled over his uh, pulled over his face, and had 324 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:44.359 the collar of his jacket was pulled up to conceal 325 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:47.839 his identity. And he never spoke a word all the 326 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:50.759 time he was there. The woman did all the talking, 327 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:53.599 and she said, I want to go out to Hyde 328 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:57.319 Park in the green car with the white stripe. I 329 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:00.440 was out that way two or three days years ago, 330 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:04.160 and that's the car that took me out there. Well, 331 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:07.640 Carmine's car was green and it had a white stripe 332 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:11.880 on it. And Carmine said to her that you must 333 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:14.119 have been out with my driver, because you know, I 334 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:17.279 don't remember taking you. And at first Carmine did not 335 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:22.599 want to take them, and Joseph Pill didn't want to 336 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:28.880 take them either. For some reason, they were alarmed by 337 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:33.640 this couple. You know, they were very shabbily dressed. They 338 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:35.839 didn't look like they had the money for the taxi 339 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:39.680 fair and Carmine and Joseph Pill, the man i met 340 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:43.839 in the billiard room in downtown Toronto, argued about this 341 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:48.359 for fifteen or twenty minutes till finally Carmine said, oh, 342 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:51.599 that's fine, I'll take them. And at the precise moment 343 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:56.720 that he was loading them into his car, another driver 344 00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:59.880 pulled up to the stand and offered to take them 345 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.599 to their location, their destination out in the High Park 346 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:10.119 and or the High Park area, and the man who 347 00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:14.799 accompanied the woman who was asking for to hire a 348 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:18.640 taxi cab waved off the other driver and pointed to 349 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:23.519 Carmines car. Then they both got in and Carmine drove away, 350 00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:27.039 which it was very shortly after midnight. It could have been, 351 00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:29.920 you know, twelve fifteen or something like that. And that's 352 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:33.640 the last time Joseph Pill ever saw my great uncle alive. 353 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:40.279 Now you're right to the next day, around five fifteen am, 354 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:44.839 or so. This is July twentieth. A workman finds Carmine's 355 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:51.240 body on Salisbury Avenue, fifty yards north of Queen Street 356 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:55.440 area in the Humber Bay area on the western outskirts 357 00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:58.720 of Toronto. His car parked about twenty five feet from 358 00:22:58.759 --> 00:23:02.119 the body. He is stabbed fourteen times in the back, 359 00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:07.319 and police believe it's from a stiletto knife. When his 360 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:12.519 body's found, he's still warm, and so they estimate that 361 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:14.759 he was dead maybe only an hour and a half 362 00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:19.359 at that time. Witnesses heard two men arguing earlier that morning. 363 00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:24.000 They thought it was sounded Italian, and they had heard 364 00:23:24.039 --> 00:23:29.960 a scuffle and a car speed away around four or five, 365 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:36.079 around four am or so. Now, once you found that information, 366 00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:39.119 you write that this little photo you had of your 367 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:42.960 great uncle, you wouldn't need that on your computer anymore. 368 00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:48.680 This was you didn't need a reminder to deep dive 369 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:52.599 into this investigation and find out who killed your great uncle. 370 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:54.200 Isn't that true? 371 00:23:55.079 --> 00:24:02.119 Yes, it is the facts that you've laid out. Uh, 372 00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:06.880 maybe he'd conclude a couple of things that uh well, Uh, 373 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:09.200 the the witness you're talking about is a was a 374 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:14.200 man named George Rush senor. He lived at UH fifty eight, Salisbury, 375 00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:18.400 on the same street where the murder took place. He 376 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:21.039 had been called out at three am to get a 377 00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:24.400 car out of a ditch. He went out, got the 378 00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:26.400 car out of the ditch. He returned back to his 379 00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:30.960 home at four o'clock. At that time, approximately sixty yards 380 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:33.519 away from his house. It was very dark by the 381 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:36.440 way back then, there were no street lights or anything. 382 00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:40.680 He had seen the figures of two two people, one 383 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:43.680 man was quite a bit taller than the other one, 384 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:49.359 and he heard them arguing in a foreign language. He 385 00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:52.799 was asked at a corner's inquest if it was Italian. 386 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:56.640 While George Rush didn't speak Italian, he couldn't say for sure, 387 00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:00.680 he couldn't confirm it. But Carmine could only speak English 388 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:05.640 an Italian, and so we have to conclude that the 389 00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:10.319 argument was an Italian, which meant that the killer, the 390 00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:16.480 man he was fighting with, and the fight that Rush witnessed, 391 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:23.000 was with another Italian. But another observation George Rush made 392 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:25.359 was that one man was quite a bit taller than 393 00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:28.200 the other. Now, the man from the taxi stand who 394 00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:32.920 accompanied the woman who hired Carmine, was approximately five foot six. 395 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:39.400 The autopsy report puts Carmin's height at five foot seven. Well, 396 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:43.000 at sixty yards, a one inch difference in height wouldn't 397 00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:48.599 be that noticeable. So I started to ask myself, you know, 398 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:51.319 the man who was with the woman from the taxi stand, 399 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:55.000 he couldn't have committed the murder because there was an 400 00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:58.920 eye witness and a discrepancy in the height that was 401 00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:06.160