WEBVTT 1 00:00:32.439 --> 00:00:35.240 Welcome to mid Rats with sal from Commander Salamander an 2 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:38.600 Eagle one from Eagle Speak at Seer Shore your home 3 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:41.960 for a discussion of national security issues and all things maritime. 4 00:00:43.479 --> 00:00:46.159 And welcome board everybody. Thank you for joining us for 5 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:49.479 another edition of mid Rats. And if you are with 6 00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:51.799 us live, I'd like to go ahead and extend the 7 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:54.640 altar call for you. If you can find the chat room, 8 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:57.439 go ahead and homp on in with the rest of 9 00:00:57.479 --> 00:00:59.640 the usual suspects. What we like to do is we 10 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:02.560 mon hear the chat room during the course of the show. 11 00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:05.920 If you have some observations about the conversation you wanted 12 00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:08.159 to share, or if there even questions you would like 13 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:10.840 for us to direct to our guests, that is the 14 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:13.719 perfect place to do it. And if you've got to 15 00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:15.519 run off and take care of some business and want 16 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:17.519 to catch up on what you missed, if you don't 17 00:01:17.640 --> 00:01:21.640 already going over to iTunes or speaker or wherever those 18 00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:24.519 aggregators are that you get your podcasts, find us and 19 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:26.640 go ahead and subscribe. That way, we'll be ready for 20 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.239 you when your schedule allows. And on today's topic, I'll 21 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:32.319 tell you what it's like we were talking about in 22 00:01:32.359 --> 00:01:35.760 the pre show. It is quite timely, especially for Americans. 23 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:38.319 When you look at the origin story of the United 24 00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:41.200 States and where we started, what kicked off our revolution, 25 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:43.879 It was multi calls all but one of the core 26 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:50.280 reasons involved maritime trade protectionisms, taxes, the whole nine yards. 27 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:52.480 And when you look at the history of the conflicts 28 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:55.079 that we've had, most of are declared and many of 29 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:57.319 our undeclared wars, and depending on how you to find it, 30 00:01:57.359 --> 00:01:59.879 including one that's going on right now, we're fought about 31 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:03.040 out or can be traced too. The safety of our 32 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:07.879 maritime commerce, sea lines of communications, and general unfettered access 33 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.199 to the open seas. And if you don't know history, 34 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:13.439 just grab a map, grab a globe, pull up Google Earth. 35 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:15.000 What you want if we want to do when you 36 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:17.479 look at the United States, zoomed out a bit, We've 37 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:20.120 got oceans to the east and west of US, and 38 00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:24.319 these oceans are between our allies, our markets, and also 39 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:27.599 our global competitors on the world stage. And today we're 40 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:30.159 going to address that topic with a real wide net 41 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:34.319 with our returning guest, Ross Kennedy. Ross is a logistics 42 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:37.400 and trade expert who's worked at the intersection of global trade, 43 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:40.800 supply chains, and national security for two decades in support 44 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:45.240 of US national interest and private sector clients. Ross, welcome 45 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:46.000 back to INTERTS. 46 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:49.360 Well, I appreciate it, sal If you'll bear with me here, 47 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:53.240 I'm this seance to summon the ghost of Alfred Thayer 48 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:56.520 Mayhan so that I really can be sure I'm on 49 00:02:56.599 --> 00:02:57.680 point with those topics. 50 00:02:57.800 --> 00:02:59.919 Well, Dan, we'll try not to dig too much into 51 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:02.560 of the nineteenth century or even earlier. We're going to 52 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:06.360 stick to the topics today because there's plenty of stuff 53 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.280 that we can we can hit on, because it's with 54 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:12.879 the new administration, there's always opportunity, there's always change, there's 55 00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:16.719 always different personalities. We haven't even been two months in 56 00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:19.919 the new administration, and we've seen a lot of naval 57 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:24.080 and maritime issues continually to get mentioned from the President 58 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:27.280 on down. And just wanted to ask you, based upon 59 00:03:27.719 --> 00:03:30.280 once we knew the results of the election in November, 60 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:33.639 kind of what you were expecting to see from the 61 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:37.199 new administration and really the global conversation on these topics, 62 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:40.319 what has kind of surprised you the most and what 63 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:43.199 are some topics that you're still waiting to break above 64 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:45.840 the background noise? Once more and more people come into 65 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:47.039 a position in the administration. 66 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:50.240 All those are good questions, broadly speaking, based on the 67 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.199 work that I was involved in that I knew it 68 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:56.639 would be informing administration policy on a range of issues, 69 00:03:56.680 --> 00:04:01.000 but you know, either all of them directly or very 70 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:05.000 adjacent to trade more economic warfare type of concepts, as 71 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:08.639 well as immigration. The thing that we didn't have as 72 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:13.479 much discussion around was really specifically the issues of maritime 73 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:16.639 commerce that I've been involved in for the last twenty years. 74 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:20.759 And the speed and the roundedness, sort of the all 75 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:24.839 encompassing nature of what we have seen really shows I 76 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:28.720 think that there is a functional understanding within in the 77 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:30.920 inner circle, certainly which I'm not a part of, but 78 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:34.879 that in the last four years that this administration team 79 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:37.879 has been listening and they have been studying the issues, 80 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:40.600 they have gotten sharp on the fact that ninety percent 81 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:43.480 of everything manufactured in the world moves on water. That 82 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:47.600 the eroded edge or margin of air that the US 83 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:51.800 had throughout packs Americana, on maritime commerce, on shipbuilding, on 84 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:55.000 our navy, everything that touches the water, they do seem 85 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:58.240 to understand at a very important level that none of 86 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:00.920 it matters if we can't manufact things, and none of 87 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:03.839 it matters if we can't protect the things that we manufacture, 88 00:05:03.879 --> 00:05:05.959 and then we ship to and from the four corners 89 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:09.439 of the globe. And I am astonished in a very 90 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:13.519 positive way at the emphasis and the focus that the 91 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:17.720 administration has shown subsequent to the November election, not only 92 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:20.720 on trade. I think we expected that tariffs, we expected 93 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:23.800 a rebuilding of steel and aluminum. We expected all of that, 94 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:27.000 reasonably so given the tone and tenor of the first administration. 95 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:30.279 But the emphasis and the focus on shipbuilding does show 96 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:34.199 that they have been listening. When Heritage Foundation, you know, 97 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:37.040 in the Maritime working group there that's led by Brent Sadler. 98 00:05:37.959 --> 00:05:39.360 You know, I'm not going to name everybody that was 99 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:42.120 involved in that, but I was John Conrad who really 100 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:44.839 kind of in my view, stands heads and shoulders above 101 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:47.639 everybody else in terms of his grasp of the all 102 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:49.920 of the domains of this at some level. And you 103 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:53.120 had others in there as well who really understood all 104 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:55.040 the domains of the issue. And then I thought, well, 105 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:56.959 maybe this will be the extent of it. You know, 106 00:05:57.199 --> 00:05:59.759 we'll get some reporting out, we'll be able to influence 107 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:01.600 a little bit. We'll nibble at the margins, but we're 108 00:06:01.639 --> 00:06:03.959 going to run into, you know, the various lobbies. We're 109 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:05.639 going to run into NAVSI, We're going to run into 110 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:08.040 the Coastguard, We're going to run into the foreign flag 111 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:11.519 ocean carriers. And surprising to me at least is the 112 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:15.199 extent to which the Trump administration has come in, you know, 113 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:18.399 barrels blazing on a whole range of these issues, not 114 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:21.720 just ship building, not just ports and terminals, and you 115 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:25.800 know the cybern you know, infrastructure threats from putting Chinese 116 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:29.360 components into our ports. It's been everything, and it's it's 117 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:33.319 a little unnerving. I guess that that we're throwing all 118 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:36.120 of this, you know, into the pot at once to 119 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:37.720 see what we can make boil out of it. But 120 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:40.120 at the same time it it kind of has to 121 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:41.959 be that way. And you know, for those of us 122 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:43.959 who have been waiting, you know, in my case twenty 123 00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:45.879 years and in the case of a lot of others, 124 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:50.079 much longer to see real focus, directed action on this 125 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:52.319 or at least on the issues. At some level. I 126 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:54.519 content building the plane as we fly it and and 127 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:58.399 failing forward a little bit to figure out where where 128 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:01.759 the gaps are that we can address and imediately. It 129 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:04.000 is certainly one approach. It's frightened a lot of people. 130 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:07.199 It doesn't frighten me, but it is perhaps the only 131 00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:11.240 course of action we could have taken is to view 132 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:14.360 and interpret all of these as interrelated, sort of tidally 133 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:17.800 locked issues, and that we can't just prioritize rack and 134 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:20.759 stack and begin chipping away from the top. We have 135 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:23.959 to really begin addressing all of it at once and rapidly. 136 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:31.079 So that has been the most unexpected. Perhaps we could 137 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:33.839 have known a little bit when you know, we were 138 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:36.680 looking at the islwu strike on the East coast and 139 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:38.800 on the Gulf coast with the long shoreman, and you know, 140 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:41.319 President elect Trump at the time the first time around, 141 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:44.199 you know, intervened at some level and then certainly intervened 142 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:47.040 when when waiting period or the cooling off period was 143 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:49.879 coming in and gave full throated support to the longshoreman 144 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:52.399 and really took aim at the foreign flag carriers, which 145 00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:55.439 was really the first indicator that he had chosen a 146 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:59.519 side in this issue of you know, the legacy protectionist 147 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:01.319 ways and which we've gone about a lot of things. 148 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:05.759 Wece the mostly foreign owned ocean carriers and terminals and 149 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:08.480 infrastructure that they operate in the US. He was siding 150 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:13.279 with the Americans, but it wasn't a typical pro union approach. 151 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:15.639 It was a I'm getting your guys back here because 152 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:17.439 I'm betting on America. But we still got a lot 153 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:20.600 to work on type of approach. And I think that 154 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:22.800 that was the savvy and the smart play to build 155 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:25.519 some political capital there on the American side, but then 156 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:28.160 to come back with you know, the USTR Section three 157 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:30.399 oh one recommendations that we saw, you know, back in 158 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:33.039 the later part of February into early March, about you know, 159 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:36.399 tolling ships in fleets that are manufactured in China or 160 00:08:36.440 --> 00:08:39.080 have a large preponderance of their fleets manufactured in China. 161 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:42.320 Is it worrisome, sure, you know to some people. But 162 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:44.240 to those of us that have been in this fight 163 00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:47.399 for a long time, we would rather gamble on being 164 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:51.039 able to figure it out along the way than doing 165 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:53.440 nothing at all. So that's a long way of saying 166 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:58.639 I am surprised in a pleasant way and extremely motivated 167 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.480 to whatever part I and anybody else I know to 168 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:03.080 be on the side of the angels here can play 169 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:04.399 in all of this, you know, I think it's full 170 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:05.399 steam ahead for everyone. 171 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:09.000 Sometime ago we had a guest to propose or was 172 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:13.600 proposing it essentially a cabinet level maritime directors what do 173 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.919 you ever call it? Maritimes are to coordinate all these 174 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:19.639 all these activities. I think that would be required to 175 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:21.759 get us back where we want to be. Now, what 176 00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:24.320 they've done in this administration is take part of the 177 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:27.919 National Security Council and converted into an offices ship building. 178 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:30.159 What do you know about what the office ship building? 179 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:32.159 And are they going to be able to coordinate or 180 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:34.360 are they even in the business to coordinate all the 181 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:37.919 things that you just talked about. It's a pretty complex process. 182 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:42.879 I think domiciling it in any one office And again 183 00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:44.759 I'm not speaking with the voice of anybody here. This 184 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:47.039 is just me sitting in my office chair talking to 185 00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:49.840 you guys. Certainly my personal views informed this, which for 186 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:52.159 reasons obvious, I have to be very clear about. My 187 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:57.200 personal view is that you would see a hybrid approach 188 00:09:57.320 --> 00:09:59.799 rather than domiciling it in one. We really have three 189 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.720 main when you roll it all up, three main stakeholders 190 00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:07.360 in particularly shipbuilding, but the larger maritime infrastructure economy at 191 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:11.399 SC very much speaks for one of the largest stakeholders, 192 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:13.320 at least in terms of budget and in terms of 193 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:15.759 amount of political capital expended on the hill in the 194 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:19.039 executive branch. And that's that's military shipbuilding. Now I would 195 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:23.279 roll coast guard and primarily law enforcement single purpose platforms 196 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.240 into that as well. But being able to project force 197 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:28.480 at sea ensure the safety of the global commons and 198 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:31.799 our literal and outer shelf waters, that's one domain. It's 199 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.440 I think fair or as good an educated guests as 200 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:36.960 any if you've got to do it fast to have 201 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:39.200 NSC have its hands on that. But I don't think 202 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:41.080 they are the only stakeholder. And I think we missed 203 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.120 the boat a little bit. I'm about to run out 204 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:45.639 of maritime analogies, so bear with me. But I think 205 00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:48.000 we miss that if we just focus on what we've 206 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:50.039 always focused on, which we know it's not working. We 207 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:53.480 know NAVC and PEO ships are to put it, as 208 00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:56.759 you know, an an ineffective, insane asylum inside of a 209 00:10:56.799 --> 00:10:59.720 walled garden is probably even being charitable. There's a lot 210 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:03.080 of that needs to happen there. But that's institutional reform 211 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:06.320 that is addressing things that have built up over forty 212 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:08.159 and fifty years as we've seen the rise of the 213 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:12.320 primes and revolving doors and decreased understanding of what it 214 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:14.279 actually takes to build a ship. So it's not all 215 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:17.799 navci's fault, but how they respond to the current political 216 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:20.399 environment and to the current needs of our countries. Certainly 217 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:22.360 they have a role in that, but I think NSC 218 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:25.279 is a pretty good arbitrator for speaking for the military 219 00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:27.960 side and the law enforcement side. You also have MARAD. 220 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:29.960 You know, the fact that we don't have any people 221 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:32.279 that would fall, you know, in an active duty type 222 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:34.879 of career that would fall under the jurisdiction of MARAD. 223 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.480 So we don't have any merchant marine, active or retired 224 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:39.720 that are in key functions of power right now. But 225 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:43.360 that is the voice of the commercial shipbuilding industry, that 226 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:45.879 is the voice of our auxiliaries, that is the voice 227 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:50.080 of the US Flag's ability to project force and support 228 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:53.039 the projection of force into the world. When you look 229 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:57.240 at any sort of great power conflict, the essentialness of maritime, 230 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:00.759 the ability to mobilize and move a massive amount of 231 00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:04.919 tonnage of cargo and fuel and essential supplies into a theater. 232 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:08.399 We've really degraded that, whether it's land, air, or sea 233 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:10.840 or space forces on Army fights on its stomach and 234 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:13.559 military fights on its stomach and its ability to provision 235 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:17.519 and protect its baggage train. And that's Marid's responsibility, along 236 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:19.840 with a lot of other functions, and they don't to 237 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:22.679 my view, they don't have enough of a seat at 238 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:25.120 the table. But then you look downstream of all of 239 00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:28.120 that again, if we keep the ninety percent rule, it's 240 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:29.919 less for the United States because we're not a net 241 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:32.399 export economy. If we keep that ninety percent rule, of 242 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:34.639 everything that's made in the world moves on water. All 243 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:36.960 the things that we need to build ships, the vast 244 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:39.919 majority of them are imported from overseas. That's certainly true 245 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:43.279 when we look at critical components and systems and semiconductors 246 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:45.080 and all these other things that we need to build 247 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:49.399 missiles and controllab modules for the bridge and all this 248 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:51.480 other stuff that those are all made in the modern 249 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:54.000 day and age with machines that we don't build ourselves 250 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.759 from minerals we don't either have or will take a 251 00:12:56.759 --> 00:12:58.879 long time to exploit what we have available in the 252 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:01.559 US and the North America. All of that comes on water, 253 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:05.519 and then you talk about our entire economy of hard goods. 254 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:07.960 We're a net importer and a net consumer. And so 255 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:11.960 the commercial sector, meaning the private sector importers and exporters, 256 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:13.559 need to have a seat at the table too, and 257 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:17.840 that's probably best represented by you know, someone or someone's 258 00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:19.919 out of the Department of Commerce. So you have these 259 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:22.919 three stakeholders that are sitting at the table, only one 260 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:25.360 of which really has a voice and that has primacy 261 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:28.279 on this issue. And you have a relatively small maritime 262 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.519 team that you know is in the NSC that is 263 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:37.279 predominantly legacy navy or that is predominantly of the older 264 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:44.120 school shipbuilding model that has consistently eroded in capability, you know, 265 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:47.200 for the last generation or two. And so should they 266 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:49.360 have a voice at the table ten percent? There's not 267 00:13:49.399 --> 00:13:52.120 a doubt in my mind. But there's no mechanism that 268 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:58.320 I've seen yet that that resolves the competing or cooperative 269 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:02.720 needs and capabilities of these domains to have somebody that 270 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.519 can adjudicate them. And you know something I've spoken with, 271 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:08.240 you know, John Conrad and others on the NSC about 272 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:11.240 and others that are definitely informing and advising. Is that 273 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:14.120 I think the best way to perhaps go about this 274 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:17.080 is not to make it some large scale interagency effort. 275 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:19.600 It's not to you know, get eighty chiefs at the 276 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:21.879 table with no Indians to be able to do the work. 277 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:24.200 My gut here is that you get two experts out 278 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:26.639 of MARID, you get two experts from NSC, and you 279 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:29.720 get two experts out of Commerce that each really have 280 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:33.399 a narrow, tight focus on the regulations and authorities and 281 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:36.080 needs of the stakeholders of those different entities. That put 282 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:38.519 six at the table. You do then have a ship 283 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:41.080 building ZAR or a maritime ZAR where the one thing 284 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:43.840 they focus on is the big picture. Who acts as 285 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:46.320 as a seventh and as an advisor and a voice 286 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:49.600 of the president directly the way zars do into that process. 287 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:52.840 And then whatever comes out of that deliberative process, you know, 288 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:54.720 the sausage can be made there. It can be ugly, 289 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:57.840 you know, it's everybody turns their phones off and you 290 00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:00.559 know they're you know, doing the work wherever that you 291 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:02.399 know that they can get red and tooth and claw 292 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:04.279 in there and resolve this because we need to do 293 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:08.399 that healthy debate, violently, healthy debate is absolutely a part 294 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:11.559 of this because we don't have the luxury of time 295 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:14.279 to do this forever and be extremely cautious and deliberate, 296 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:16.080 So we just got to get ourselves into a room 297 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:19.159 and wreck this out. But that committee of seven then 298 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:24.279 pushing up to somebody who has that sober mindset of 299 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:25.960 let's look at the numbers, now, let's look at the 300 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:28.679 facts and figures and capabilities and resources. That could be 301 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:31.279 an entity like OMB that might have the ability to 302 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.519 do that, or some of the other offices or economically 303 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:38.360 focused groups of advisors that the President necessarily leans on, 304 00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:41.320 that whoever that may be, could adjudicate what comes out 305 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:43.720 of that Committee of seven, and from that, I think 306 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:46.960 you get a more well rounded, balanced set of perspectives 307 00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:50.399 and policies that can then be rapidly implemented down and 308 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:54.000 out through the interagency by whatever means are appropriate. Allowing 309 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.879 a relatively small of the job, more narrowly focused group 310 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:01.639 to kind of encompass the needs and wants and trying 311 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:03.279 to speak for all of these stakeholders. I think it's 312 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:05.559 just too big, too big of an ask with the 313 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:08.480 world as it is, within the amount of work that 314 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:10.279 has to be done because and then one of the 315 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:12.759 reasons I suggested bringing in like an ANEC like the 316 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:16.440 National Economic Council or OMB to be able to adjudicate 317 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:18.320 a lot of this is because a huge amount of 318 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:21.559 this work is going to involve foreign partners potentially coming 319 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.600 in Koreans or Japanese doing joint venture shipyards. We know 320 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:27.799 CMA has announced that they're looking at doing something similar 321 00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:30.879 as well, investing into shipbuilding and infrastructure here. So we 322 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:34.919 have to have that sort of diplomatic and economic perspective 323 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:36.919 to help governing guideline. A lot of this it's going 324 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:39.039 to take subsidies, it's going to take taxes, it's going 325 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:43.279 to take being able to pull from the USTRS China 326 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:46.720 ship Port too, the funds that we build from additional tariffs. 327 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:48.840 You know, someone has to be able to speak for 328 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:50.639 that and say, Okay, here's the pot of money and 329 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:53.120 here's how much we're going to allocate to the efforts 330 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:57.120 that these committees of competing in cooperative entities have pushed 331 00:16:57.200 --> 00:16:59.240 up to us. So that's my hope is that we 332 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:02.240 see something that's more in alignment with that as it evolves. 333 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:04.480 And my hope is that we do continue to as 334 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:06.079 painful as it may be fail forward. 335 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:09.519 You mentioned forty to fifty years to get here, and 336 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:13.000 this is something, like you said, it didn't happen overnight, 337 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:17.000 and it's not something that's going to, unfortunately be fixed overnight. 338 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:19.279 As there's a lot of talk about not just in 339 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:24.799 the shipbuilding arena, but the economy in general, reshoring, reindustrialization. 340 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:28.200 But after forty or fifty years, and you covered on 341 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:30.640 some of those points, you just can't flip a switch 342 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:31.720 and have it take place. 343 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:33.079 You need to have. 344 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:36.519 Interior lines of communication with supply chains. You need the 345 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:40.200 companies all along the supply chain that are also have 346 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:43.200 had the business long enough that they've been able to 347 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:47.599 be continuing businesses. I'm old enough to remember, especially in 348 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:50.319 places like San Diego at the end of the Cold War, 349 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:53.839 the amount of companies to just shut their doors because 350 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:56.200 there if you don't get orders for a year, you 351 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:59.440 can't stay in business. And so we've let it atrophy 352 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:04.480 and on the vine for so long that you need 353 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:08.519 to have from your raw materials a look at. And 354 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:10.720 I like how you mentioned a department of commerce, but 355 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:13.480 this really is I hate to use this overuse phrase 356 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:15.279 all the time, but it does need to be a 357 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.920 whole of government because when you look at a lot 358 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:22.359 of the resources and raw materials that do have available 359 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:28.079 in the US is everything from the regulations and involving 360 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:34.359 environmental impact statements to local zoning issues. That we've gone 361 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:38.160 for so long without having to access these things throughout 362 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:41.200 the economy that there needs to be a long term 363 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:44.880 structure in place that survives this administration and going on 364 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:50.119 the institutions and the practices that got us here over 365 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:53.359 forty years, Is that the same type of infrastructure that 366 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:56.440 can get us back to where we'd want to be there? 367 00:18:56.839 --> 00:18:59.720 Does there need to be a look at breaking things 368 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:02.960 down to parade rest and building something that could push 369 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:03.880 in a better direction. 370 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:07.720 I think the existing infrastructure that we have necessarily plays 371 00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:11.160 a role, particularly some of the more be circumspect and 372 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:14.559 speaking particularly maybe about business practices or whatever, if only 373 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:16.720 because I don't feel like getting my phone or email 374 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:21.160 flooded with with you know, angry responses. But we do 375 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:24.279 have yards in the US that have some level of 376 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:27.599 integrated infrastructure. Hostile USA and Mobile is a great example, 377 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:29.920 where they have their own steel and aluminum forging and 378 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:32.920 working capabilities there. Not every shipyard has something like that. 379 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:34.880 We've got coast guard ships being built in the yard 380 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:38.480 that you know is mostly sand, gravel and mud let 381 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:41.279 alone having a steel mill attached to it. But when 382 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:44.759 we look at the whole of the capabilities, we need 383 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:46.839 to be very honest with ourselves about what each yard 384 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:51.200 is capable of and allowing them to rise to the 385 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:55.799 excellence they are currently capable of, and resourcing and supporting 386 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:58.799 them and keeping them aligned. But what I would envision, 387 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:02.200 what I would hope, is that we see green field 388 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:09.640 models emerge from new types of primes or disruptive clusters 389 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:16.720 of existing ones, or people that have adjacent domain knowledge 390 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:21.920 that are more of a maritime innovation cluster within an 391 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:25.759 area's You know, the Golf is really an obvious place 392 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:29.039 because of its access to deep water ports, because of 393 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:32.160 the very cheap energy of that is produced immediately offshore 394 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:34.400 and then refined right there. You know, your your biggest 395 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:37.359 inputs for shipbuilding, if you're not going fully robotic, are 396 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:39.759 going to be manpower and energy, And the Golf has 397 00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:43.519 a history culture of shipbuilding. It would be very easy, 398 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:45.680 relative to a lot of the other challenges I think, 399 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:49.440 to invest into and reinforce and expand that doing a 400 00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:53.440 like a maritime innovation SEZ, like a special economic zone 401 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:57.279