1
00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:05,519
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pee Kenyanas show. Thomas,

2
00:00:05,599 --> 00:00:08,519
we got a new series that you wanted to start here.

3
00:00:09,919 --> 00:00:12,000
You mentioned it, and I was like, we need to

4
00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:17,160
jump all over it, especially since you mentioned the Oppenheimer

5
00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,039
movie that's out and that this would be, uh, this

6
00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,399
would be a good supplement or side by side to it.

7
00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,679
So tell everybody a little bit about what's your what's

8
00:00:27,679 --> 00:00:28,120
you're thinking.

9
00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,920
Speaker 2: I want to discuss the German atomic bomb, but like

10
00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,079
everything about it, like if such a program existed, you know,

11
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,159
conceptually what you know, what what was the cattos for it?

12
00:00:43,719 --> 00:00:46,240
You know what what was the state of of science

13
00:00:46,439 --> 00:00:51,240
at the time. And also in in kind of more

14
00:00:52,359 --> 00:00:55,320
apocal terms, you know, I want to talk about nuclear

15
00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,799
weapons generally, or atomic weapons in that era. You know,

16
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,880
people people I misunderstanding about about about the bomb and

17
00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:11,439
about nuclear weapons generally. They uh, people like Thomas Schilling

18
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,480
and like Herman Khan. They made the point that nuclear

19
00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,159
weapons are like any other weapons, they're just far far

20
00:01:17,359 --> 00:01:24,040
more muscle bound. The uh, the ability to impose you know,

21
00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,319
devastating attrition in an instant the system, you know, marks

22
00:01:27,359 --> 00:01:34,159
them apart, as does you know, very like strategic variables

23
00:01:34,159 --> 00:01:39,159
relating to their destructive power and creates peculiar paradigms. I mean,

24
00:01:39,159 --> 00:01:43,319
oh that is true, okay, but they don't have they

25
00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,560
don't have great utility in any kind of like general

26
00:01:46,719 --> 00:01:53,120
applied sense, and there's there's actually very few paradigms where

27
00:01:53,159 --> 00:01:57,319
they really are are a game changer or that they

28
00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,599
really advance, you know, the the themiliar rangers of the state,

29
00:02:01,719 --> 00:02:05,200
you know, instantaneously, you know, like it there's this kind

30
00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,159
of like there's this kind of like mythical belief and

31
00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,520
super weapons just I mean, it's like an ongoing thing

32
00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,120
that it just seems to have people assign a kind

33
00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,000
of mystique, you know, to wartech and I guess like

34
00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:18,520
nuclear weapons could be viewed it's kind of like the

35
00:02:18,599 --> 00:02:20,879
zenus of that. So I mean there's just that, But

36
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:29,439
beyond that, there's deliberately cultivated narratives around around the issue. Historically,

37
00:02:29,479 --> 00:02:32,800
like the development of the first atomic bomb. A lot

38
00:02:32,879 --> 00:02:36,240
of this has to do with anti fascism, you know,

39
00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,240
like ideologically anti fascism. A lot of this has to

40
00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,199
do with rationalizations for you know, America's development of the

41
00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:49,280
bomb and attempt to defend its monopoly on such capabilities,

42
00:02:50,039 --> 00:02:53,319
you know, the there so there's this idea that was

43
00:02:53,719 --> 00:02:59,120
presented by the War Department in the aftermath of you know,

44
00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:04,840
the the nuclear assault in Japan that well, we developed

45
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,479
this thing because you know, the Third Reich was was

46
00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,479
feverously developing an atomic capability, and you know that would

47
00:03:11,479 --> 00:03:14,000
have that would have that would have changed everything, you know,

48
00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,800
and and this this evil tyrannical regime set benting world domination.

49
00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,479
Could I hold hold the planet hostage with atomic weapons?

50
00:03:20,719 --> 00:03:23,400
That's and that's preprocess for a lot of reasons, but

51
00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,479
it does beg the question as to was was the

52
00:03:28,479 --> 00:03:31,960
German Reich developing an atomic bomb actively? Uh? That's a

53
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,159
complicated question for a lot of reasons, not the least

54
00:03:36,199 --> 00:03:43,240
of which not not uh not, the least of which

55
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,120
not for reasons, not the least of which is the

56
00:03:45,159 --> 00:03:51,159
fact that Oppenheimer was not the quote father of the

57
00:03:51,199 --> 00:03:54,039
atomic bomb. Now there was Einstein. A man named Otto

58
00:03:54,159 --> 00:03:58,400
Hahn was and this didn't used to be controversial. Okay,

59
00:04:00,599 --> 00:04:06,159
Who is Ato Haanohan was born in eighteen seventy nine.

60
00:04:07,159 --> 00:04:11,840
He died when he was quite elderly, in July nineteen

61
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,680
sixty eight. Han is the father of nuclear chemistry and

62
00:04:15,719 --> 00:04:23,639
specifically nuclear fission. Okay, Hahn and his assistant, a lady

63
00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:33,800
named let's say Miitner, they discovered the radioactive isotopes of radium, thorium,

64
00:04:35,079 --> 00:04:39,639
protecting them, and most importantly, uranium. In the second episode,

65
00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,000
I'm no physics guy, but I do know something as

66
00:04:43,079 --> 00:04:45,160
much as a layman can kind of understand these things.

67
00:04:45,319 --> 00:04:47,639
We'll get into why uranium is so important and like

68
00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,319
what uranium actually is. I'm gonna like bore everybody to death,

69
00:04:50,759 --> 00:04:55,560
but it's important to understand and applied capacities. You know,

70
00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:05,920
how atomic research developed into a a a discreetly military endeavor. Okay,

71
00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:13,759
but Han also through his experience, through his experiments, which

72
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:20,120
were myriad, he discovered the phenomena what's called atomic recoil

73
00:05:20,519 --> 00:05:27,360
in nuclear nuclear isomerism and UH he pioneered UH a

74
00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:32,319
lot of the techniques that ultimately gave rise to carbon dating. Okay,

75
00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,199
So the guy was a The guy was a was

76
00:05:36,199 --> 00:05:41,720
was was an intellectual giant. But quite literally everybody subsequent,

77
00:05:41,959 --> 00:05:49,600
every every researcher engaged in nuclear science and specifically UH

78
00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,439
weapons based nuclear research. There they were literally they were

79
00:05:54,439 --> 00:06:00,120
literally borrowing from Han's research Okay, that's indisputable. And like

80
00:06:00,199 --> 00:06:03,360
I said, at in the epoch he was credited as such,

81
00:06:04,759 --> 00:06:07,199
it's this idea that you know, like, oh, that the

82
00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,480
Germans were just like these crazy fools and they didn't

83
00:06:09,519 --> 00:06:11,959
understand physics or something or I mean, that's as nine

84
00:06:11,959 --> 00:06:14,639
to be unbelief. Also like this idea that like, oh,

85
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,879
like you know, because of anti Semitism, you know, the

86
00:06:18,439 --> 00:06:21,160
Germans didn't have a coterie of of top signific minds

87
00:06:21,199 --> 00:06:23,680
like that, that's preposterous. Like not only is that preposterous,

88
00:06:23,879 --> 00:06:28,160
but quite literally, you know, the technology that facilitated the

89
00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,480
development of nuclear weapons was literally invented by the Germans. Okay,

90
00:06:33,439 --> 00:06:41,519
now for background too, Han he received in ninety forty

91
00:06:41,519 --> 00:06:45,519
four the Nobel Prize for Chemistry. And and just we'll

92
00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,240
get into this again in a second and third episodes.

93
00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:49,560
I think we I think it should probably be a

94
00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:55,120
three part series. But the but but just nuclear fission

95
00:06:55,319 --> 00:06:57,879
was that wasn't is the basis for nuclear reactors as

96
00:06:57,879 --> 00:07:01,040
well as nuclear weapons. Okay, it makes all those things

97
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:08,800
pot not just possible, but concealable. Okay. Interestingly, interestingly, during

98
00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:14,079
World War One, because uh Hans a little bit older,

99
00:07:14,199 --> 00:07:17,000
he served with love Landvan Regiment, which you know in

100
00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,319
the Kaisers in the kaiser Reich was like a reserve regiment,

101
00:07:21,519 --> 00:07:24,079
generally consistent, like it was kind of like the Home

102
00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,000
Guard or like what the British is called the Territorial Army.

103
00:07:27,639 --> 00:07:34,000
But uh, he actually was mobilized and deployed and uh

104
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,399
he was Uh he was attached to a chemical weapons unit,

105
00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,399
chemical warfare unit headed by Fritz Hobert on the Western Front,

106
00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,240
Eastern Front, and Italian Front. He was in heavy action

107
00:07:46,319 --> 00:07:49,639
and yet he was awarded the Iron Crossed second Class.

108
00:07:51,199 --> 00:07:53,879
So I mean, he why do I raise this specifically?

109
00:07:53,959 --> 00:07:56,000
It's not just because it's it's not just because it's

110
00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:01,879
interesting trivia, but it to I am, I'm trying to

111
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,759
demonstrate the aspect of Hans' character. Hans was not averse

112
00:08:05,839 --> 00:08:13,879
to the you know, applying science in in in military endeavors, okay,

113
00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,959
in including the somewhat horrible endeavor of chemical warfare. All right,

114
00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,639
This becomes an issue later on as to what Hans's

115
00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:31,199
view was of, you know, applying nuclear fission to to

116
00:08:31,279 --> 00:08:34,840
weapons development. Okay. And plus it's just interesting background and

117
00:08:34,879 --> 00:08:41,120
there's I I I believe this is very much I

118
00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:44,480
believe there's very much a natural progression conceptually, okay, from

119
00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:50,360
chemical warfare to nuclear warfare, and I that it's arguable,

120
00:08:50,399 --> 00:08:52,159
but I think it's important. And I think people people

121
00:08:52,279 --> 00:08:57,759
understand people who understand institutional thinking and the men who

122
00:08:57,759 --> 00:09:00,559
populated was institutions and the way they kind of paradigms

123
00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,000
that they play with, as it were. I think that

124
00:09:03,159 --> 00:09:07,480
it's somewhat inarguable. But this kind of thing was very

125
00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:11,240
much on on on the minds of of uh of

126
00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:17,960
European physicists. Okay, the concrete engineering of what became the

127
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,159
atomic bomb wasn't and we'll get into why that was.

128
00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,279
But uh, it's like I said, there's this like mythology,

129
00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,080
there's this punative mythology that it's that both somehow simultaneously.

130
00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,080
The Germans were idiots who had no idea how to

131
00:09:34,279 --> 00:09:37,360
apply uh, what was called the new physics to war

132
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,039
fighting and the engineering of weapons. But in the other hand,

133
00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,879
they were like these maniacs hell bent on and developing

134
00:09:42,879 --> 00:09:45,759
an atomic bomb, and you know, only the only only these,

135
00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:48,559
like only the only these, like you know, genius askenasm

136
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,919
like you know, we're able to save the day. And

137
00:09:50,919 --> 00:09:53,840
of course, like Einstein is the father of nuclear physics,

138
00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,080
and and Oppenheimer is the fire of the atomic bomb.

139
00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,840
That's total nonsense, okay, And that's not a partisan take

140
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,440
and arguable for those I'm sure are gonna send me

141
00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,919
hate messages about it. That's just not true. It's like, well,

142
00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:13,759
I can you know, I can source all of these claims.

143
00:10:13,799 --> 00:10:20,759
The let's jump to the end of the war, because

144
00:10:20,799 --> 00:10:24,519
I think Irving's book The Virus House as well as

145
00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,840
which is a source I rely on tremendously. It's the

146
00:10:29,879 --> 00:10:32,039
best book in the German talkic bomb. There's also a

147
00:10:32,039 --> 00:10:38,879
book by not By It's about It's about Edmund Teller,

148
00:10:40,799 --> 00:10:45,080
And the narrative kind of begins on the date that

149
00:10:45,159 --> 00:10:50,840
the of the Hiroshima attack, because that's really people don't

150
00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,440
realizing the degree to or some Mahatant project truly was

151
00:10:53,600 --> 00:11:00,320
secret and at uh the attack that shocked the world.

152
00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,200
It's rather amazing the degree to which the Manhattan Project

153
00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,720
was able to maintain operational security. But I say let's

154
00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,480
start there for a few reasons, as will become evident.

155
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,039
It's the point at which the world was quite literally

156
00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,360
introduced to the atomic bomb, including a coterie of German

157
00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:26,559
scientists who had been taken prisoner by six and squirrelled

158
00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,440
off to the United Kingdom. So August sixth ninety forty five,

159
00:11:31,919 --> 00:11:35,399
the BBC Home Service they broadcast the first news that

160
00:11:35,759 --> 00:11:40,960
an atomic bomb had been dropped in Hiroshima. The boat

161
00:11:41,039 --> 00:11:44,279
announced that the bomb in question contained as much explosive

162
00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,879
power as two thousand of the rif ten Ton bombs.

163
00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,279
President Truman had declared that the Germans had worked feverishly

164
00:11:53,399 --> 00:11:55,799
to find a way to use atomic energy but had failed.

165
00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:03,639
Now at a premise it's called farm Hall. This is

166
00:12:03,639 --> 00:12:15,120
a country house near Huntington in UH. The in in England,

167
00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:20,960
a coterie of German physicists were being held prisoner there

168
00:12:21,639 --> 00:12:28,759
incident what was called Operation Epsilon. Operating Epsilon was the

169
00:12:28,799 --> 00:12:35,399
code name for this endeavor that took place in May

170
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:41,519
one in June thirtieth, nineteen forty five, whereby the Allies

171
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:47,480
identified ten German scientists who were believed of worked on

172
00:12:47,519 --> 00:12:51,320
the German atomic bomb program. And UH these men were

173
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,360
they were captured, and they were again they were squirrelled

174
00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,399
away to UH to England and detained. And this in

175
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,960
this kind of mansion house near Cambridge called farm Hall. Okay,

176
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,919
the proximity to the university is not an accident either,

177
00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,600
because it was it was a weird kind of incarceration

178
00:13:11,759 --> 00:13:15,159
that these guys endured, because on the one hand, it

179
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,480
was very punitive. On the other hand, you know, if

180
00:13:17,759 --> 00:13:20,480
they if you wanted these men to speak, you know,

181
00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,080
London wanted these men to speak to the you know,

182
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,960
their own academics about the you know, about the bomb

183
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:28,440
and things and if you're and if you're just you know,

184
00:13:28,519 --> 00:13:31,320
kind of like treating people like for for them to live,

185
00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,120
you know, like like you know, like abject and squalor

186
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:40,000
or whatever, or you know, or abject prisoners in the

187
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,320
traditional sense that wouldn't have happened. So, I mean, it's

188
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:44,759
it kind of reminds me of the early days of

189
00:13:44,799 --> 00:13:50,960
like spears attention Okay, although obviously he ultimately endured true horrors,

190
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,559
as we got into in an earlier series. But the uh,

191
00:13:55,519 --> 00:13:58,320
the goal nominally, and I think this is basically true.

192
00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:03,000
What what m I six and the US War Department

193
00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:06,519
both claimed independently was that the goal was to determine

194
00:14:06,519 --> 00:14:08,840
how close the German roy had come of the development

195
00:14:08,879 --> 00:14:15,360
of a viable atomic bomb. First among the detainees with

196
00:14:15,399 --> 00:14:24,240
Ata Han okay it uh. And this was attested to

197
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:30,320
not just by not not just by his fellow attainees,

198
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:36,159
but but by his interrogators and and and the you know,

199
00:14:36,159 --> 00:14:39,080
in the m I six men who were guarding him

200
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,559
and debriefing him. There there was concern that Han would

201
00:14:41,559 --> 00:14:44,879
commit suicide because he was so beside himself that this

202
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,000
bomb had been created, and he blamed himself. You know,

203
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,120
it's not uh like you know that this was this

204
00:14:53,279 --> 00:14:56,039
is very poignant, okay, and I don't. This is on

205
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:57,919
my mind, like as I watched the open Hiram movie

206
00:14:57,919 --> 00:15:00,279
the other day, Like this idea that like Oppenheimer's single

207
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,919
like single humanly created the atomic bomb and lived with

208
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,320
this terrible guilt, that's ridiculous, Like that's not you know,

209
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,159
it's it's it's as if they like extrapolated like Hans's

210
00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,840
life and mind and memories and you know, transposed it

211
00:15:13,879 --> 00:15:16,759
out to this kind of character of Oppenheimer, who has

212
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,360
has some relation to the historical man was become kind

213
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,120
of like this, you know, it's almost like mythical figure.

214
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:27,799
But the uh A major thh Writtener. He was the

215
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:33,159
British officer in charge at farm Hall. He he he,

216
00:15:33,159 --> 00:15:34,919
he asked for Han, and he brought to his office

217
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,600
immediately to make sure that his he was stable of mind,

218
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,360
and also just wanted to speak to him about, you know,

219
00:15:41,559 --> 00:15:46,120
what had just happened. According to Rittner, Han was horrified

220
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,919
and again he felt personally responsible for the that's one

221
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:56,759
hundred thousands of people, he told written er Han, Han

222
00:15:56,799 --> 00:16:01,080
told Writtener, And apparently according to in the and witnesses

223
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,840
not just written her himself, Rittner developed something of a

224
00:16:05,919 --> 00:16:12,679
rapport okay during his time there, and uh Han had

225
00:16:12,759 --> 00:16:18,960
told Writtener, you know, on on multiple occasions that he

226
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,639
he'd had forebodings about the potentialities of of his discovery

227
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:28,360
of of nuclear fission, but he never thought that, you know,

228
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,200
a weapon would be rapidly engineered and deployed with that

229
00:16:33,279 --> 00:16:36,200
kind of destructive power, like not because it was impossible.

230
00:16:36,279 --> 00:16:42,799
But we'll get into what what you know, he thought

231
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,159
would give a wo would would give the scientific community

232
00:16:46,159 --> 00:16:50,919
pause and other things. Now, who are the other detainees

233
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:55,720
of farm Hall. There were doctor Eric Baggi or Bog,

234
00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:01,480
doctor Kurt Diener, a professor named Walter Garreluck, odo Han,

235
00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:08,000
of course, Paul Hartek, the famous Werner Heisenberg, a man

236
00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:14,720
named Horst Coursing, a professor named Max von Lau, another

237
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,960
professor named Carl Frederick von Weisker, and the doctor Carl Wurtz.

238
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:27,680
Now the the the premises at Farmer Hall were bugged. Okay,

239
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,920
everywhere was from you know, the kind of common recreation

240
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,720
area to the private court of the men. And this

241
00:17:35,839 --> 00:17:40,680
wasn't just this wasn't just incidental. One of the key

242
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:48,680
purposes of detaining the German atomic scientists was the eavesdrop

243
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,440
on the conversations between that, you know, the men themselves.

244
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:58,839
Now as the what the myrophones picked up as the

245
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:04,960
as the news was was h relaid, was that Heisenberg.

246
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,720
Heisenberg disputed the possibility that the Americans even had a

247
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,640
bomb and dropped it, Like he didn't dispute that Hiroshimos destroyed.

248
00:18:13,519 --> 00:18:18,599
But uh he he. He believed it was some kind

249
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,519
of conventional like some kind of muscle bound conventional weapon

250
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,240
or series of firebomb raids like had been conducted over Tokyo.

251
00:18:25,279 --> 00:18:27,799
Over one hundred thousand people died in twenty four hours.

252
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,200
Like he thought this was He thought this was propaganda, Okay,

253
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,160
not because it would be impossible to create a bomb,

254
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,920
but he you know, the scientific community was it was

255
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,960
a peculiar thing. And the even even you know, even

256
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:50,039
on the EVA hostilities, the number of men who truly understood,

257
00:18:50,079 --> 00:18:54,240
you know, the new physics and were insinuated into, you know,

258
00:18:54,279 --> 00:18:58,519
the applied research of these things, it was incredibly small fraternity, Okay,

259
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,319
And men like that then kind of looked at themselves,

260
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,119
with the exception of a certain coterie they ended up

261
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,799
in America, they looked at themselves as being part of

262
00:19:08,799 --> 00:19:15,440
a community that kind of transcended politics. Okay. Heisenberg he

263
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:22,119
was personally, uh friendly with a doctor Goudsmith, who was

264
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,640
the head of the American Intelligence Mission, which had debriefed

265
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:31,599
when he was initially taken prisoner, and gout Schmidt, uh

266
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,240
was a fellow physicist, and they Heisenberg Gousmit knew of

267
00:19:35,279 --> 00:19:38,440
each other, and uh, Heisenberger developed like a pretty good

268
00:19:38,519 --> 00:19:45,039
rapport with him, and uh he'd asked gods Goutschmidt whether, uh,

269
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:50,720
whether atomic weapons research was something that the Allies were

270
00:19:51,759 --> 00:19:55,079
endeavoring to uh, you know, take on or if I

271
00:19:55,319 --> 00:19:59,599
or if there was any you know, background of such

272
00:19:59,599 --> 00:20:03,359
apply experiments, you know, the end goal of uh of

273
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,839
weaponizing atomic energy. And Goutsman assured him that was not

274
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,440
the case. And I Goutsmant I guarantee had no idea

275
00:20:10,519 --> 00:20:14,079
about the mainhadan project. He was speaking totally honestly. Okay,

276
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,599
so maybe it was naivete some people might say in

277
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,480
the part of Heisenberg thinking like that, you know, the

278
00:20:19,599 --> 00:20:22,799
kind of the kind of the kind of fraternity of

279
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,440
pure science would mean that you know, no one would know,

280
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,640
no colleague would a lie to another, and such an

281
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:34,960
important and like literally earthshaking matter. But that again it

282
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,920
was different times, it was different. You know, it was uh,

283
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,240
these guys weren't ordinary academics or scientists, you know, they

284
00:20:41,319 --> 00:20:44,559
they were like the elite of the elite of the elite.

285
00:20:44,759 --> 00:20:47,400
And also again like Goutsmith I believe was telling the truth,

286
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,279
like he didn't know about the Manhaddan project, you know.

287
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,359
And plus two, I mean, like the it shocked everybody,

288
00:20:54,599 --> 00:20:56,559
was like the war in Europe was done, Like Japan

289
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,680
was utterly destroyed and couldn't even defend itself. You know,

290
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,759
that's why was like that, like there's there's this lame

291
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,359
like defense, like oh, Japan had to be invaded because

292
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,960
they were just crazy and like a million Americans would

293
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,519
have died like that, that's ridiculous. The bomb was deployed.

294
00:21:12,799 --> 00:21:14,880
These things developed their own momentum. The bomb was gonna

295
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,720
be deployed somewhere. It had been developed to destroy Europe,

296
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,079
which is totally insane if you think about that, you know,

297
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,960
like genociding your own race with with nuclear weapons. But

298
00:21:23,039 --> 00:21:26,920
it but aside from that, it's I don't think the

299
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:33,200
Soviets would have stopped, you know, and they you know,

300
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,920
they they were, they were, they were actively the Soviets

301
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,119
had had gone to war against Japan in the final days,

302
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,000
you know, like who's to say, who's to say they

303
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:47,440
would have abided, you know, Truman's demands had UH had

304
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,440
the bombs plural not been deployed. But in any event,

305
00:21:51,519 --> 00:21:55,240
that's the rapidity to which too, that's something they keep

306
00:21:55,279 --> 00:21:58,920
in mind, like the kind of the core concepts of

307
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:06,960
UH weaponizing nuclear energy. This is really only six years old, okay,

308
00:22:07,759 --> 00:22:11,519
So I believe there was something of this idea that

309
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,720
America could just rapidly, you know, kind of develop a

310
00:22:17,759 --> 00:22:21,279
competency in the new physics, you know, and and within

311
00:22:21,319 --> 00:22:27,359
basically half a decade, you know, develop a weaponized capability

312
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,240
like it seemed unlikely. You know, it's it was extraordinary

313
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:36,759
and putting oneself in the shoes of Heisenberg, I mean,

314
00:22:36,759 --> 00:22:39,519
think about the disorientation of of what he had just

315
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,400
endured and and kind of like what of the German

316
00:22:42,599 --> 00:22:51,000
like experience generally like in you know, ninety six. And

317
00:22:51,119 --> 00:23:01,319
finally too, the uh, the Americans in the British came

318
00:23:01,519 --> 00:23:05,160
who you know, in operational terms, they worked fairly closely

319
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,119
in the immediate aftermath of the German defeat for for

320
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,559
practical reason that those are political ones. The UH. The

321
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:23,000
last German uranium pile laboratory to be seized, that was

322
00:23:23,039 --> 00:23:26,599
the library staffed by Issacar and verts. It was actually

323
00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:34,799
located in the French occupation zone. And UH, the US Army,

324
00:23:35,599 --> 00:23:39,839
with the sentence of the British at all costs, aimed

325
00:23:39,839 --> 00:23:43,519
to prevent radio active material and the research data from

326
00:23:43,519 --> 00:23:46,960
this pile laborate uranian pile laboratory from falling into French hands.

327
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,799
Like they they were singularly fixated on this, okay, and

328
00:23:51,839 --> 00:23:56,440
the Germans knew this, and that's and that's how UH

329
00:23:56,519 --> 00:23:58,359
and that's why Wicker and Verts ended up in the

330
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,759
hands of of the British and not the first. But

331
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,519
the reasoning too, in Heisenberg's mind was like, okay, like

332
00:24:03,559 --> 00:24:07,279
if you, if you guys have the bomb, like why

333
00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:09,759
why why you fixated on you know, grabbing all the

334
00:24:09,839 --> 00:24:12,880
uranium you can and preventing it from falling into you know,

335
00:24:13,599 --> 00:24:16,920
rival hands or whatever like it just but again too nobody,

336
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,839
nobody knew about the Manhattan Project other than those involved,

337
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:29,000
and you know, the uh, the the the five stars

338
00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:39,160
around Truman himself, but uh. Overall the feelings of the Germans,

339
00:24:40,039 --> 00:24:44,839
Irving characterized it as a sense of recrimination. They were

340
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,200
shocked by the fanaticism of people who are not under

341
00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:53,160
direct like physical threat, who just developed, like rapidly develop

342
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,119
an atomic bomb at uh. Like in their mind, it's

343
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,920
like the kind of fanaticism that had been like a

344
00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:03,319
sterically attreated to them in the Japanese by the New Dealers.

345
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,440
You know, it's like you guys, haven't you guys have

346
00:25:05,519 --> 00:25:08,359
you guys have an ocean between the people you claim

347
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,480
your enemy and you're like feverishly developing atomic bombs like

348
00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:16,640
that's there's something frankly insane about that. It.

349
00:25:16,839 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: Uh, well, let me ask Han, could they could they

350
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,440
really have been shocked?

351
00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:27,519
Speaker 3: I mean it, how would Han and Eisenberg? How how

352
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,200
up would they have been on new deal? What the

353
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:32,519
new Deal was bringing in?

354
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:38,599
Speaker 1: What what was basically going to happen where Yeah, of

355
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,119
course this group of people once once uh control of

356
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,160
the bomb, they're megal and moniacal.

357
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,559
Speaker 2: Because these guys are scientists, not politicians. And again too

358
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,279
it we're speaking of things that happened eighty years ago

359
00:25:54,319 --> 00:25:59,079
and that we take for granted like it didn't you know,

360
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,720
and and and also I believe they thought that you know,

361
00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:05,880
the degree to which the degree to I mean, listen

362
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,519
to listen to the Hitler's December eleventh, ninety forty one speech.

363
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:15,240
You know, it's some people were people were somewhat flabberg

364
00:26:15,319 --> 00:26:18,519
acid that America was literally talking about making total war

365
00:26:18,599 --> 00:26:22,480
on Europe for frankly ambiguous reasons, you know what I mean.

366
00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:26,480
Then people didn't even there's a question as to whether

367
00:26:28,759 --> 00:26:31,519
you know, an atomic bomb would even work as intended.

368
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,160
You know, there's a fact, there's a fact that we

369
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:40,839
addressed at the beginning of you know what, military utility

370
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,039
doesn't really have outside of very narrow kind of strategic paradigms,

371
00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:46,279
other than the fact that you can like kill a

372
00:26:46,279 --> 00:26:51,799
whole lot of people immediately, you know, and America had,

373
00:26:52,559 --> 00:26:55,160
Germany was in ruins, the Red Army was in Berlin.

374
00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,680
The Japanese, uh, Japan's literally a pile of rubble that

375
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,839
was getting bombed the Stone Age every day. Like deploying

376
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,200
uh like, like launching a nuclear attack on like a

377
00:27:08,279 --> 00:27:13,440
ruined country under those conditions, that's somewhat shocking, you know.

378
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,920
I mean, even even if one understands the character of

379
00:27:19,319 --> 00:27:21,400
the men in control of the enterprise. So yeah, I

380
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,359
don't think I don't I don't think he was like feigning,

381
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:28,119
putting on errors or something. And uh, like I said, too,

382
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,359
these are the guys who actually made this possible. It

383
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,599
wasn't Oppenheimer, it wasn't Einstein, you know, it wasn't in

384
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,759
Rico Fermi. You know, it was these guys, you know,

385
00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:39,960
And it's I mean, there's something you know. Yeah, it's

386
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:45,880
a trope that scientists are naive, but it's also kind

387
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,279
of true. It was certainly true here. I mean, like

388
00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:51,039
I said, who are these guys faking it to? Like

389
00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:56,039
they you know, they had, they weren't. Uh and like

390
00:27:56,079 --> 00:27:58,000
none of these none of these guys were national socialist.

391
00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,960
It's not like they were going out like it's not

392
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,519
like they were playing a gearing and saying like I

393
00:28:01,519 --> 00:28:04,000
got to protect the historical record and you know, wrong

394
00:28:04,039 --> 00:28:06,400
foot my enemies like that didn't even feature in the equation,

395
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,200
you know, like Heisenberg was a national socialist. Hahn actually

396
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,400
like was at odds at the regime not to do

397
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,519
something liberal, but he just he just didn't like national

398
00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:18,519
socialism and he didn't you know, he was he wasn't

399
00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:20,799
a guy who was willing to unlike von Braun and

400
00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:24,160
it was, you know, willing to go along and be pragmatic.

401
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,079
You know, these guys were, you know, but von Braun

402
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,839
was a was a was basically like a you know,

403
00:28:30,839 --> 00:28:35,160
a mechanical engineer and like an aviation prodigy, you know,

404
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,480
like he wasn't. That's a different Like the theoretical physics

405
00:28:38,519 --> 00:28:41,200
is a weird thing, and it's like it's it's it's

406
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,720
it's very it's it's like both concrete and abstract, and

407
00:28:44,759 --> 00:28:47,880
it tends to it tends to with it tends to

408
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,279
with a track kind of you know, dreamy hyper intellectual

409
00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:55,559
personalities and stuff. So no, I don't I don't think

410
00:28:55,559 --> 00:29:03,720
there's anything fake about it. But the uh Han Hanna

411
00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:09,960
described and people and and independent witnesses a tested to this,

412
00:29:10,079 --> 00:29:15,079
like people had been with him when he was first uh,

413
00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:17,799
when he had his first breakthroughs in his you know,

414
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:25,960
fish and research. When Han first learned the potentiality or

415
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,359
the implications. Rather, it wasn't clear what the concrete potential

416
00:29:29,559 --> 00:29:35,920
was of uranum uranium fishing discovery. He said that, considering

417
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:41,279
that war was obviously imminent, he contemplated uh, seizing as

418
00:29:41,359 --> 00:29:45,680
much uranium as possible, the majority of which in Europe

419
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,240
was in Belgium, and literally throwing it into throwing it

420
00:29:48,279 --> 00:29:54,319
into the sea, or otherwise hiding it to ward off

421
00:29:54,319 --> 00:30:00,359
some kind of catastrophe, you know, resulting from a one

422
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:05,599
of the combat and states attempting to weaponize it. And

423
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,319
then he realized that's not practicable, and also, uh, you know,

424
00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:13,599
I get, but I mean, I you know, that's that's

425
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,519
that's that's that's the core, because the core of your question,

426
00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:19,400
like Han had those kinds of thoughts because that in

427
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,279
his mind, that's what any remotely kind of like morally,

428
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,079
anybody was remotely normal, normal like moral constitution would have

429
00:30:26,119 --> 00:30:28,839
those kinds of thoughts like he wouldn't just like, you know,

430
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,599
there's something wrong here with the Americans and British. It's

431
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,920
like putting up huge factories and like feverishly like you know,

432
00:30:35,559 --> 00:30:39,680
producing pure uranium like without without question because like you know,

433
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,599
and it's like why like was was was the Red

434
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,960
Army storming across America? Was like no, I mean was

435
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,960
with a JIP and he's threatening America Like no, I mean,

436
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,200
like there's something there's something unseemly about it, you know,

437
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,319
and like it's not I I I totally understand what

438
00:30:55,319 --> 00:30:57,799
he's getting at or what's getting at. And I'm not

439
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,480
at all some peacenick. In fact, like it's scale on

440
00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:03,119
these questions. I think I'm pretty callous, Okay, at least

441
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:16,960
That's what I'm told. The interestingly coursing what he stated

442
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,480
in the course of this conversation with his fellow detainees

443
00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:24,559
after the broadcast that you know, Hiroshima had been destroyed.

444
00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:28,240
What he said and what he what he and what

445
00:31:28,319 --> 00:31:37,279
he reiterated later was that the level of cooperation, you know,

446
00:31:38,839 --> 00:31:44,440
under military auspices obviously that facilitated the Manhattan Project, that

447
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,920
would have been impossible in Germany. You know, he made

448
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,359
the point. He's like, he's like, you know, if the

449
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,160
men in the room, he's like, some of us didn't

450
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,319
wouldn't have wanted to do it on principle. But uh

451
00:31:58,519 --> 00:32:00,559
he's like, even if we had, you know, there would

452
00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:03,200
have there would have been different ideas on how to

453
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,279
proceed with this, and there would have been different ideas

454
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:11,200
on you know, managing outcomes potentially you know, and like

455
00:32:11,359 --> 00:32:14,359
and trying to like build in you know, safeguards into

456
00:32:14,359 --> 00:32:17,759
the into the structure itself, or you know, there would

457
00:32:17,759 --> 00:32:19,680
have been there would have been resentments from you know,

458
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,799
taking orders from party men, you know. And that's your point. Yeah,

459
00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:26,480
that's the subtext of what he said. Of what Coursing

460
00:32:26,519 --> 00:32:29,000
said is that these men who worked on that man

461
00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:31,519
Handing project they were they were like absolute fanatics, like

462
00:32:31,599 --> 00:32:34,279
they were you know, they they were they were frankly crazy.

463
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,559
And that uh yeah, that that goes without saying, especially

464
00:32:39,559 --> 00:32:45,079
if you consider the confessional background and motives and things

465
00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:51,640
of these men in America. I mean, but it the uh, now,

466
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:59,880
what what was the background here of just gonna introduce

467
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:04,759
the background of what if any understanding of the weapons

468
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:12,599
potential of Hans experiments existed. On April twenty ninth, nineteen

469
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:17,680
thirty nine, this was, uh, this was kind of when

470
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,519
the world became aware of the potential of some kind

471
00:33:21,599 --> 00:33:28,400
of potential potentially you know, game changing of the new physics.

472
00:33:31,359 --> 00:33:39,240
Hans experiments and widely publicized obviously throughout Europe. And there's

473
00:33:39,279 --> 00:33:48,039
a French professor named Frederick jeelo or Jeloit. He was

474
00:33:48,079 --> 00:33:55,440
the son in law of Madame Curry. He reproduced Hans

475
00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:03,319
experiments meticulously and he and his team they were confirmed,

476
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:08,400
uh like like it it was confirmed that like Han

477
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:10,679
was you know what what what he what he had

478
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:17,559
stated to have proven as regards, among other things, the

479
00:34:17,599 --> 00:34:20,320
existence in neutrons during the press of uranium fision and

480
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,639
their situation like that that it was it was signed

481
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:27,880
off on is yes, this is legitimate. Not a letter

482
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,320
to Nature magazine, which in those days was was like

483
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,320
a leading kind of like it was a combination that

484
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,320
kind of like pop science stuff but also like major

485
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,280
scientific discoveries that's where they would be featured in which

486
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,400
it metally sounds weird today about it. I mean, that's

487
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:47,480
the way things work. You know. It's this French team

488
00:34:47,599 --> 00:34:54,880
led by Joeloid. Their letter was titled quote Liberation of

489
00:34:54,960 --> 00:35:03,320
Neutrons and the nuclear explosion of uranium and uh essentially

490
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:04,840
that was sort of like the first kind of like

491
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:10,119
public declaration of uh, you know, nuclear fish and having

492
00:35:10,199 --> 00:35:16,559
like tremendous weapons potential. But I emphasized potential. You know,

493
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:22,079
there was nothing there. There's nothing demonishably proven here. But uh,

494
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:31,440
the uh what this led to was in the next

495
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,679
few days and UH Gottingen, which is a renowned university town,

496
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,199
or at least it was then in Germany at uh

497
00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:45,519
the Physics Colloquium. Uh, a guy named wil Helm hanld Hanley,

498
00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:50,000
who was Ah, he didn't know Han, but he was

499
00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:51,880
like a protege of him, because, like, you know, he

500
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,719
was an up and coming physicist, you know, everybody you know,

501
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,119
he was kind of the he was kind of like

502
00:35:57,159 --> 00:36:01,039
the grand old man everybody looked to. He read a

503
00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:07,800
short paper on, uh, what do you call the uranium

504
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,719
burning engine? I mean we was talking about a nuclear reactor, okay,

505
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,519
and that like little paper by this guy. The trajectory

506
00:36:17,519 --> 00:36:22,239
of German atomic research was basically going towards nuclear reactors.

507
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,400
You know, the idea of like or like a uranium

508
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,800
burning engine, okay, you know, like an endless energy source,

509
00:36:29,159 --> 00:36:32,159
and that frankly that would have solved what became Germany's

510
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,119
quagmire militarily in part more so than an atomic bomb would.

511
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:46,440
And that's a really interesting counterfactual. But that and amidst

512
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,880
all of this kind of excitement, you know, it's got

513
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:57,039
to be said, despite the impression people have, I mean

514
00:36:57,079 --> 00:36:59,920
not just court historians, even people who you know are

515
00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:03,039
are more kind of critical and they're thinking about historical topics.

516
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,199
There's this idea that the so that that that the

517
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,079
German Reich was some kind was almost some kind of

518
00:37:07,119 --> 00:37:09,920
like rightest mirror of the Soviet Union. It's not true

519
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:15,039
at all. You know, like the National Socialist Party it was,

520
00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:19,000
it was it was literally elected Hitler himself by the

521
00:37:19,079 --> 00:37:24,719
Enabling Act and by various referendums. He had tremendous power.

522
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,039
But even that wasn't really unprecedented, you know, like the

523
00:37:27,079 --> 00:37:30,559
Reich president had had literally like extra constitutional authority as

524
00:37:30,559 --> 00:37:34,320
he saw fit. But you know, the German state and

525
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:41,320
the National Socialist Party were discreete entities and it it

526
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,000
there were there were, there was tension there, like structurally,

527
00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:47,960
you know, and there was even beyond that, even uh,

528
00:37:48,199 --> 00:37:52,239
it wasn't it wasn't. It wasn't simply because there's plenty

529
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,719
of professors who weren't National Socialists, even the guys who

530
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,239
were basically sympathetic, like they didn't want the government messing

531
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,599
in their affairs, you know, like these were not just

532
00:37:59,679 --> 00:38:05,360
guys who you know owed their oh their careers and prestige,

533
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,320
you know, something the Berlin government had done for them,

534
00:38:08,679 --> 00:38:10,280
you know. And they also they didn't want to be

535
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,400
ordered to work with other people, you know, like they

536
00:38:12,519 --> 00:38:14,599
that they didn't feel comfortable with or didn't you know,

537
00:38:14,639 --> 00:38:17,679
respect or whatever. It was like very provincial, kind of

538
00:38:17,679 --> 00:38:20,000
like very ego driven, but also just very you know.

539
00:38:20,159 --> 00:38:22,079
I mean that that's the nature of academ you know,

540
00:38:22,119 --> 00:38:26,000
and that's that's especially you know, especially the especially the

541
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,320
hard sciences and especially what was then called the New physics,

542
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,639
which was literally like the cutting edge of of a

543
00:38:34,039 --> 00:38:37,239
scientific endeavor, you know. So I mean it's some it

544
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,440
was like trying to herd cats, you know. This this

545
00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:43,119
idea that you know, this is this idea that the

546
00:38:43,159 --> 00:38:46,639
Reich was like just some party state is nonsense, has

547
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,320
this idea that like Germans like you know, some Prussian

548
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,159
some Prussian officer types just like snapped his fingers and

549
00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:53,800
then like the crowd saw like, you know, do what

550
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:59,000
they're told. Like that's that's nonsense too. Like it was uh,

551
00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:04,599
you know, it's it's uh, it's it was. It was, uh,

552
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:11,400
it was. It was highly chaotic, you know this Uh.

553
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:20,760
The subsequent conference that was a that that was arranged

554
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,000
based on all these based on all these you know

555
00:39:24,119 --> 00:39:31,199
kind of findings, and confirmed them, confirmed them, and and

556
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:38,079
confirmed the research. It ultimately was uh held in secrecy

557
00:39:38,639 --> 00:39:46,679
at uh at in in Berlin at a building on

558
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:58,199
uh Winter then Linden the U, and this was when

559
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:03,840
the War Department U got very interested in what was

560
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:13,320
going on the UH the War Office as well as

561
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:18,320
Reich ministries attached to it actually or or just kind

562
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,480
of like practically because they were in the same orbit

563
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,800
or had overlapping series of authority. In a very short

564
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,920
space of time. In nineteen thirty nine, had begun their

565
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:37,519
own uranium research program. It was low key. It was

566
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:43,599
basically uh, you know, corralling data that had already been produced,

567
00:40:44,679 --> 00:40:48,159
you know, in France and in the German Reich, you know,

568
00:40:48,159 --> 00:40:50,480
and kind of running a comparative analysis and trying and

569
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,039
again like duplicating some of these experiments to make sure

570
00:40:53,039 --> 00:40:57,000
that you know, this was in fact the results were

571
00:40:57,039 --> 00:41:07,760
what they purported to be. And this led to UH.

572
00:41:08,119 --> 00:41:12,360
This led to a Hamburg professor, Hamburg professor named Paul

573
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,960
Hartzek and his assistant, a guy named doctor Wilhelm Groth.

574
00:41:19,159 --> 00:41:24,639
They'd written a letter to the War Office just before UH,

575
00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:28,480
just before the Berlin conference and about ten days after

576
00:41:28,519 --> 00:41:31,239
the publication of the of the of the Paris of

577
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,440
the French physicist letter Nature magazine. And this letter was

578
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:40,960
cited again and again and again by American new dealer

579
00:41:41,079 --> 00:41:44,159
media as well as like oss types all in Sundry.

580
00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:46,760
The letter stated, quote, and this is the letter of

581
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,760
the War Office, okay, by these by this Hamburg professor.

582
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,440
It said, quote, we take the liberty of calling your

583
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,440
attention to the newest development in nuclear physics, which, in

584
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,679
our opinion, will probably make it pass to produce an

585
00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:04,920
explosive many orders of magnitude more powerful than the conventional ones.

586
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,400
That wasn't really a groundbreaking statement. I mean, yeah, people

587
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,880
speculated that that was true, and UH, Obviously, what was

588
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,639
right into this statement was that, uh, this is some

589
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,440
sort of a this is some sort of like uh

590
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,840
you know, low key almost kind of hidden communication between

591
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:31,000
German Scientific academ and the War Office saying like, look

592
00:42:31,199 --> 00:42:34,320
like this is not only possible, this is you know, essential.

593
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,800
We've got to beat the allies the punch and you know,

594
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,000
pursue this course of research. Essentially, like take this letter

595
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,480
of the Fear and the Arments Ministry and like let's

596
00:42:43,519 --> 00:42:45,639
make it happen. There's no evidence that that's what this

597
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,760
letter indicated, Okay, And frankly, like if that's what it was, like,

598
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,800
why wouldn't open a letter be written, you know, like

599
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,679
it's not really other things are done. But you know

600
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,320
so I think some of what is argued around these

601
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:06,840
these these surviving kind of statements my sort of say

602
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:08,840
surviving I mean, you know, like a literal letter forum.

603
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:13,360
I think some of is in bad faith. The uh

604
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:23,880
you know, and again the uh something uh. The letter

605
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,079
concluded with quote the country that makes first use of

606
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,159
unsurpassable advantage over the others. I believe what he meant

607
00:43:32,159 --> 00:43:36,000
by it is just nuclear fission generally. And again, the

608
00:43:36,039 --> 00:43:40,519
trajectory of this kind of research was towards nuclear reactors, okay,

609
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:46,480
or a uranium burning engine. I believe that's what they

610
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,880
were getting at, and which is true, okay. I mean,

611
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:54,199
any anybody who found a way to you know, utilize

612
00:43:56,119 --> 00:44:01,280
atomic energy for uh an inductil military purpose like yeah,

613
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:06,480
obviously like first use compares confers a massive advantage. But

614
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,840
I don't read it as being like again, some kind

615
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,719
of secret agreement, you know, to pursue atomic weapons research

616
00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:18,920
in concert. And I don't read that final sentences a

617
00:44:19,039 --> 00:44:21,440
statement to the effect of, you know, we have got

618
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,639
to develop and deploy atomic bombs as soon as possible.

619
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,280
That's not in context, That's not what it means. And

620
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:32,760
I'm not playing lawyer ball at all. And frankly too,

621
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:37,199
it's a bit outside the scope. But the course of

622
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,079
German scientific research, not just relating to the new physics,

623
00:44:40,119 --> 00:44:44,320
but even in conventional engineering and other things, it makes

624
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,239
sense that a nuclear reactor would kind of be the

625
00:44:48,599 --> 00:44:51,480
would kind of be the holy grail of German research,

626
00:44:51,519 --> 00:44:53,760
if that makes any sense, you know, And again that

627
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,320
would have alleviated not just emergent exigencies in the Second

628
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:03,880
World War, but you know, problems that had compromised Germany's

629
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:08,880
operational effectiveness and its ability to survive protracted wars as generally, Okay,

630
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,599
I mean in the preceding you know, millennia or what

631
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:20,480
have you, But that the reaction in London was especially

632
00:45:20,599 --> 00:45:23,519
kind of severe to the French physicist letter, you know,

633
00:45:23,559 --> 00:45:31,760
the Nature magazine letter. The British press when they you know,

634
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,480
just like as they did subsequently when in sei wating

635
00:45:35,519 --> 00:45:38,920
mister Churchill into office, they undertook us like full court

636
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:45,000
press full of lowered accounts of a new quote superbomb

637
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,119
based on uranium fishing and that was being developed in Germany.

638
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,480
You know, like they just presented this as a foremon conclusion,

639
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:58,079
as a fact. You know. The four days after the

640
00:45:58,159 --> 00:46:06,320
letter appeared, both the British Treasury and the Foreign Office

641
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:13,039
were approached uh by Sir Henry Tizzard. He was chairman

642
00:46:13,079 --> 00:46:16,280
of this commit chairman of the Committee on the Scientific

643
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,119
Survey of Air Defense, which had outsized power, as did

644
00:46:20,199 --> 00:46:24,039
pretty much every everything related to the Air Ministry. I

645
00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:28,840
think we talked about that in our tertial series. He

646
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:33,159
said that in uncertain terms Britain should take preemptive action

647
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:38,159
to deny large sources of uranium to the Germans. And

648
00:46:38,199 --> 00:46:41,519
as I stated, the largest stockpile of uranium in Europe

649
00:46:41,599 --> 00:46:48,119
was in Belgium, and the the sizeable industry for extracting

650
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:53,320
urate for extracting radium from uranium from uranium oars imported

651
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,199
from the Belgian congo as well. So like get in Belgium,

652
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,159
you didn't just have you know, like the raw stores

653
00:46:58,159 --> 00:47:01,039
of uranium. It was like the infrastruct sure to you know,

654
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:08,519
process it in basic ways to make it utah. So

655
00:47:08,679 --> 00:47:15,159
essentially with Tizzard was suggesting or demanding perhaps was uh,

656
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:21,239
you know that Britain find a way to you know,

657
00:47:21,679 --> 00:47:28,119
wage war on the continent and capture whatever uranium Belgium had,

658
00:47:29,079 --> 00:47:33,639
you know, with hostility, which operationally obviously there was that

659
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,599
was not going to happen. But the fact that this

660
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,920
was well within their contemplation, and I don't think this

661
00:47:40,039 --> 00:47:42,079
was just propaganda. In the case of the UK, I

662
00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:46,360
think they probably actually believed this. I mean, obviously their

663
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,760
conceptual horizon was totally corrupted by this kind of hysterical

664
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,599
idea of you know, Germany as our enemy, but within

665
00:47:52,679 --> 00:47:56,639
the bound irrationality of that that paradigm, I think they

666
00:47:56,639 --> 00:48:02,199
actually did believe that, uh, a fishion bomb was was

667
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,559
was at that moment possible. And that's kind of a

668
00:48:06,559 --> 00:48:09,880
fascinating uh that that's kind of a there's a that's

669
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,320
that's that's like it's like Frederic foresight stuff but in

670
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,360
real life. And I think that's kind of fascinating. And

671
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:18,320
there's many many intrigues, uh really you know, like espionage

672
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:23,199
and stuff and and what have you that like around that.

673
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:34,039
But I uh, I'm a I'm gonna stop here and uh,

674
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,119
second episode, Uh, I think we'll have to go a

675
00:48:37,159 --> 00:48:40,239
little bit longer, and I want to get into the

676
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,480
uh I want to get into with the actual Virus House,

677
00:48:44,079 --> 00:48:46,559
which is the title of the book, which was the

678
00:48:46,599 --> 00:48:52,480
dedicated research facility for the German atomic bomb, such that

679
00:48:52,519 --> 00:48:54,280
it could be said to have existed as a dedicated,

680
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,679
dedicated program. And then in the third episode we'll deal

681
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:02,840
with uh kind of like the aftermath and uh things

682
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,920
of that nature. That sounds good.

683
00:49:06,119 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 1: Are you going to address the popular conception that the

684
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:17,679
Fear was adamant about getting a bomb and that the

685
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:19,639
scientists were working against him.

686
00:49:21,079 --> 00:49:23,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's basically like Heisenberg said and

687
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,559
some of his colleagues said, when when he said that,

688
00:49:27,679 --> 00:49:29,679
you know, we didn't really want to develop a bomb.

689
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,719
He was talking in terms of like personal conscience, not

690
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,159
like the hell with Hitler unless sabotage the war efforts.

691
00:49:36,519 --> 00:49:38,800
It was that if you know, if they'd been ordered

692
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,599
in it in a formal capacity, or if the or

693
00:49:41,599 --> 00:49:44,880
if the or if the atomic program had been like

694
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,960
the rocket program and underdirect military authority, you know that

695
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,280
they would have resisted that because you know, the unpredictability

696
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,000
of outcomes and just kind of like the in their mind,

697
00:49:56,039 --> 00:49:58,800
like the naked immorality of of just unleashing that much

698
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:03,960
power U when not you know, necessary for you know,

699
00:50:05,119 --> 00:50:08,679
in a matter of existential survival. I think that's uh,

700
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,440
I mean, that's the way to understand it. But people

701
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,519
want people want to rehabilitate Heisenberg, and I mean they should, like,

702
00:50:14,559 --> 00:50:16,760
no German needs to be rehabilitated, but in their mind

703
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,360
they want to think of Heisenberg and and Hans, you know,

704
00:50:20,559 --> 00:50:23,239
good guys. So they like exaggerate the degree to which

705
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:29,440
you know, these men had some kind of ideological objection

706
00:50:29,559 --> 00:50:35,039
to finishism. But yeah, we'll get into that. We'll start

707
00:50:35,079 --> 00:50:37,599
with just like a brief understanding of what uranium is

708
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,480
very much a layman. Okay, So I mean, like I,

709
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:43,360
I'm not suggesting, I'm not being panantic like I when

710
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:44,840
I started reading about this topic, like I had to

711
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,119
read up on uranium. So I will take like ten

712
00:50:47,119 --> 00:50:50,840
million minutes next episode and like learn about our friend uranium,

713
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:55,599
and then we'll get into you know, uh, we'll get

714
00:50:55,599 --> 00:50:59,719
into the uh the views of the of the warm

715
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:04,000
and is re you know, contra the New Dealer War Department,

716
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,480
you know, and and the kind of lack of a

717
00:51:08,519 --> 00:51:14,599
convergence respectively of uh of a common understanding of uh

718
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:19,559
the military potential of atomic weapons. And you know, like

719
00:51:19,599 --> 00:51:22,800
I said, I I want to get into like the

720
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:27,559
motivations of why America developed a bomb and uh, you

721
00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:31,440
know that's a complicated topic. But yeah, we'll try to

722
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,280
wrap it up in three episodes.

723
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 3: All right, do plugs and we'll end this.

724
00:51:37,559 --> 00:51:41,039
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh. You can still find me on Twitter, which

725
00:51:41,039 --> 00:51:44,000
I guess that was X or whatever like formerly burb

726
00:51:44,079 --> 00:51:49,000
app capital R E A L underscore number seven hm

727
00:51:49,079 --> 00:51:52,400
A S seven seven seven. You can always find me

728
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:56,599
on substack, which is my primary platform. It's real R

729
00:51:56,639 --> 00:52:00,880
e A E L Underscore Thomas seven seven dot subsec

730
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,639
dot com. You know, it's find me on my website

731
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:08,719
number seven H seven seven seven dot com. I'm a

732
00:52:10,119 --> 00:52:15,360
I'm preparing season two of the Mind Phaser podcast and

733
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,000
as well as uh I'm going to Utah in a

734
00:52:18,079 --> 00:52:20,719
couple of weeks to film the first dedicated episode of

735
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,360
Thomas TV on the channel. My YouTube channel is Thomas

736
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:31,239
TV number seven him as TV. So exciting things are afoot.

737
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,679
In addition, h to like this, you know, Pete and

738
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,079
Keith Woods and other fellows are nice enough to host

739
00:52:38,119 --> 00:52:40,480
me and you know, like be looking out for that

740
00:52:40,519 --> 00:52:43,960
stuff too. But yeah, that's all I got.

741
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 3: Thank you until the next time.

742
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:48,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you man.

743
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecana Show,

744
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:58,039
Part two on what I'm calling the German Bomb series

745
00:52:58,199 --> 00:53:01,800
little mini series with Thomas. How are you doing, Thomas

746
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,639
and where are we going today?

747
00:53:05,199 --> 00:53:11,599
Speaker 2: I wanted to continue kind of with you know, the

748
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:14,760
background of you know what the state of what was

749
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,920
called the new physics was in the lead up to

750
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,840
the Second World War, especially because as we touched on

751
00:53:24,119 --> 00:53:26,159
were than touchdown as we as we got into but

752
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:32,360
not completely last time. There's this idea very much reinforced

753
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,599
by the Oppenheimer's film, which in some ways I thought

754
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:38,880
was a good film. In other ways I thought it

755
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:40,519
was not a good film at all. I mean, well,

756
00:53:40,559 --> 00:53:44,679
we can get into that maybe when it's more apropos.

757
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:50,400
But there's this narrative that there was this kind of

758
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,840
mad race. There's two one or two narratives. It's either

759
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,840
that there was this race by all major powers to

760
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:02,360
weaponize atomic energy and feverishly you know, at Cambridge versus

761
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,960
of Chicago, versus Berlin, you know, presumably somewhere in the

762
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,679
Soviet Union. You know, this was all going on, and

763
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:12,039
you know this, this desperate race was proverbially speaking, was

764
00:54:12,079 --> 00:54:15,119
one you know, by the Manhattan Project team. That's not

765
00:54:15,119 --> 00:54:19,920
true at all, Nothing like that was afoot. The other,

766
00:54:20,639 --> 00:54:24,920
the other, the other kind of narrative is that, you know,

767
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,320
the Einstein Memo was born of some kind of secret

768
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:33,199
knowledge Einstein presumably had, or that he had gleaned, you know,

769
00:54:33,599 --> 00:54:37,039
from the kind of German fraternity, as it were, of

770
00:54:37,039 --> 00:54:40,800
of you know, researchers in the new physics that you know,

771
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:46,119
Heisenberg presumably was, you know, had come to in the

772
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:51,079
knowledge presumably, you know, borrowing from Fermi's concrete experiments, that

773
00:54:51,599 --> 00:54:54,199
you know, uranium could be weaponized into a into a

774
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:59,079
super bomb. So Einstein desperately, you know, contacted you know,

775
00:54:59,119 --> 00:55:01,039
people he knew and and then close to the New

776
00:55:01,079 --> 00:55:03,760
Deal regime. You know they you know, including people he

777
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:05,639
talked about in another series, you know, on the Board

778
00:55:05,639 --> 00:55:08,679
of Jewish Deputies, the American Jewish Committee. They put him

779
00:55:08,679 --> 00:55:11,920
in touch with Sacks. You know, Uh Einstein, I said

780
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:14,280
Rolys wall street Man, who then said, oh my god,

781
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,639
you know this is you know, there's like like some

782
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,519
corny movie plot, like you know that this evil Nazi

783
00:55:19,559 --> 00:55:24,119
regime is you know, months away from from this super weapon.

784
00:55:24,159 --> 00:55:26,719
You know, we've we've got to alert mister Roosevelt immediately.

785
00:55:27,559 --> 00:55:30,519
Like that. That's ridiculous. I mean, aside from the aside

786
00:55:30,559 --> 00:55:34,119
many like value judgments they were in about the combatant regimes,

787
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:36,679
like this was not underway at all, like we talked

788
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:42,400
about last time, literally on the Evil War in ninety

789
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,719
thirty nine, the best minds in Germany. First of all,

790
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,119
there was no there was no organization here, like the

791
00:55:48,159 --> 00:55:53,400
War Office, which itself was kind of a hodgepodge of

792
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:57,079
of academics, you know, like bureaucratic administrators, you know, like

793
00:55:57,159 --> 00:56:00,960
party men, like guys, you know, like military men, at

794
00:56:01,039 --> 00:56:03,920
least in a liaison capacity, you know, who had some

795
00:56:04,199 --> 00:56:07,880
idea that you know, what's there that you know that

796
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:12,119
there's a you know that there's some kind of applied

797
00:56:12,199 --> 00:56:16,360
potential you know, to atomic physics. But the direction they

798
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,800
were going was what we consider to be, you know,

799
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:24,159
conceptualizing what am I to a crude nuclear reactor. Okay,

800
00:56:24,639 --> 00:56:29,880
that did change somewhat as time went on, but there

801
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:34,320
was never not only was there never uh a Third

802
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:38,760
Reich version of the Manhattan Project underway, but that wasn't

803
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:42,440
even within anybody's contemplation, and nor nor was the kind

804
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:45,880
of organization in place to do that, you know. I mean,

805
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,320
anybody will tell you when you're talking about academics, especially

806
00:56:50,519 --> 00:56:52,639
men a top of their field and in some kind

807
00:56:52,679 --> 00:56:57,440
of experimental science, trying to organize these people in a

808
00:56:57,519 --> 00:57:02,719
dedicated capacity is like hurrying cats number one number two.

809
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,320
You know. The Third Reich was really, uh, the Third

810
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:10,119
Reich unlike the Soviet Union and frankly unlike the New

811
00:57:10,159 --> 00:57:13,320
Dealer United States. It was uh, it was just kind

812
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:17,239
of like competing off in hostile like fiefdoms of authority,

813
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:21,199
and these factions who really didn't like each other, who

814
00:57:21,199 --> 00:57:24,320
were kind of only bound by like faith in the fure.

815
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,320
You know, like it's just kind of like messianic personage.

816
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:32,320
I don't mean that in crude terms. They're on overly

817
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:35,440
praising terms. It's just the reality. Okay. So like people

818
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:37,079
have this kind of mistaken idea, you know, like we

819
00:57:37,159 --> 00:57:39,079
talked about before the Third Reich is kind of like

820
00:57:39,079 --> 00:57:42,239
this like fascistoid like version of the Soviet Union, where

821
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:44,880
like from the top down just everything was you know,

822
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:49,119
corralled into the service of the state and its military needs.

823
00:57:49,159 --> 00:57:51,000
Like that wasn't the case at all, and that that's

824
00:57:51,039 --> 00:57:53,960
one of the things that you know, the catalyst for

825
00:57:54,039 --> 00:57:57,280
Gerbal was total wascond be known as the as the

826
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:00,599
Total warst speech. The catalyst for that was he was

827
00:58:00,599 --> 00:58:03,760
making the case like basically like begging a lot of

828
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,280
some of the patrons of the party, like, look like,

829
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:09,159
put us out your differences, that we have to mobilize completely,

830
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,159
you know, if we're going to survive. And by that point,

831
00:58:12,199 --> 00:58:14,280
I mean the die was cast, you know, so it

832
00:58:15,239 --> 00:58:20,400
but be that as it may. I'll also say, finally,

833
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:22,719
and then we'll get into the meat of this there's

834
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:27,000
this idea in America, and I think, I mean even

835
00:58:27,039 --> 00:58:32,320
among historians with a critical eye, and even with some

836
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,039
people who have military knowledge, I think the direct experience

837
00:58:35,199 --> 00:58:42,559
or based on their theoretical you know, endeavors, there's this

838
00:58:42,599 --> 00:58:45,280
idea that nuclear weapons there's kind of like this trump card,

839
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,679
you know, or that you know, like Thomas Schelling said,

840
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:51,360
and in the conducts he said it was correct that

841
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,920
they're just like any other weapons, except owing to command

842
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:59,320
and control nuances, you know, in the computerization and decision

843
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:04,800
making a key junctures, and the destructive power of them.

844
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,719
You know, they they're just capable of implementing far far

845
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:15,199
more attrition, far far quicker than you know, conventional weapons.

846
00:59:15,559 --> 00:59:17,480
And that is the correct way to think about them

847
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:22,280
in conditions of bipolarity as regards to the political map

848
00:59:24,039 --> 00:59:26,760
in general, parody in terms of strategic forces, and being

849
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:32,159
in a military situation such as the world of nineteen

850
00:59:32,239 --> 00:59:34,719
thirty nine or even of nineteen forty three forty four,

851
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,679
it's not clear how an atomic bomb would have helped Germany.

852
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:44,239
I mean, Germany could have annihilated the UK, and I mean, yeah,

853
00:59:44,239 --> 00:59:48,119
that would have helped. I mean in terms of obviously

854
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,239
it could no longer be utilized as you know, US

855
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:55,239
Army Air Corps and Royal Air Forces on singable aircraft

856
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:59,440
carrier from which to you know, strategically bomb Germany with

857
01:00:00,159 --> 01:00:03,239
and conventional loads. But you know, the path of victory

858
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:05,760
in World War Two for Germany is the conquest of

859
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,039
the Soviet Union. You know, Moscow has to fall in

860
01:00:08,159 --> 01:00:14,599
ninety forty one, and thereby, you know, Germany becomes a superpower.

861
01:00:15,199 --> 01:00:18,440
You know, it captures the Central Asian world island. If

862
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:23,440
you want to use mckinder's language, okay, just you know,

863
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:29,559
atomic bombing Moscow and killing you know, ten million Russians. Well,

864
01:00:29,599 --> 01:00:31,679
I mean the third right killed ten million Russians. I

865
01:00:31,679 --> 01:00:34,239
mean that did that win the war? You know, like

866
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:38,800
I I think it was uh Ac mcdeinahjadd It was

867
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:40,880
an interesting guy at least more I mean, he was

868
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:46,440
at least the most interesting Iranian ahead of state since Komani.

869
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,679
You know, he made the point when kind of Ntnya,

870
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:52,800
who was at his most kind of historyonic. You know,

871
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,039
it is freaking that everybody's developing a bomb. You know,

872
01:00:55,079 --> 01:00:58,400
all Israel's enemies are developing the bomb. You know, it's like,

873
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:03,039
did the did nuclear weapons helped the Soviet Union? You know,

874
01:01:03,039 --> 01:01:06,000
like when the Soviet Union went down not with a bang,

875
01:01:06,239 --> 01:01:10,239
with a whimper. I think it had uh. I think

876
01:01:10,239 --> 01:01:16,320
it had something like twelve thousand warheads you know that

877
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,920
could be married uh launch vehicles and deployed you know,

878
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:24,599
as like strategically you know, like intercontinentally you know, or

879
01:01:24,639 --> 01:01:27,920
at least like within theater, you know, over intermediate distance.

880
01:01:28,199 --> 01:01:30,039
I mean it's that there's like this idea like nuclear

881
01:01:30,119 --> 01:01:33,639
weapons just you know, you like own you own your enemy,

882
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,559
like in and for verbial or actual terms, you just

883
01:01:36,639 --> 01:01:38,880
own the battle space like that. That that that doesn't

884
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:43,119
make any sense, you know, in the case of America obviously,

885
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,599
I mean America just had to devastate Germany and Japan,

886
01:01:47,159 --> 01:01:49,599
you know, and it could and then and then America

887
01:01:49,599 --> 01:01:51,800
gets the planet, you know, but I mean no nobody

888
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:57,760
else was in that situation, you know, ironically, in a

889
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:02,360
totally counterfactual scenario there like a nuclear armed Japan like

890
01:02:02,559 --> 01:02:06,519
that actually, like Japan could have extorted a lot of

891
01:02:06,559 --> 01:02:11,440
concessions if they had nuclear atomic bombs or something comparable.

892
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:15,480
I've thought about that and not I think not incidentally,

893
01:02:15,519 --> 01:02:19,239
that's why they were so fixated on a biological weapons program,

894
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:22,000
you know, and like the father of modern bio warfare

895
01:02:22,119 --> 01:02:27,360
is shiro Ishi. And he got poached immediately by US

896
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:32,920
occupation forces and delivered the the War Department, soon to

897
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,320
be the Defense Department. They ended up actually teaching at

898
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:38,280
Berkeley of all places, you know, as as like in

899
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:40,440
this kind of role of civilian roles like this in

900
01:02:40,519 --> 01:02:44,559
old age is like this unassuming like biologists. But he

901
01:02:44,559 --> 01:02:47,800
he was a he was a he was he was

902
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:51,880
a war master of bioweapons. Okay, that's something of a tangent.

903
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:57,119
But another event. All these things are important. They're not

904
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:06,400
They're not just speculative, you know, uh, sort of counterfactuals

905
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:10,400
that are fun to play with as we uh. I

906
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:15,400
think we finished last time with the letter the letter

907
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:20,320
by the French physicists to Nature magazine, you know, was

908
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:24,079
discussed the potential of of of you know, some kind

909
01:03:24,199 --> 01:03:29,039
some kind of military application of of uranium, you know,

910
01:03:29,119 --> 01:03:37,119
and reactions from uranium if you know, the the isotope

911
01:03:37,559 --> 01:03:42,239
needed could be you know, cultivated. Okay, and this this

912
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:44,800
really this caused it say it caused a stir in

913
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:48,599
the scientific community would be a gross understatement. But the

914
01:03:48,719 --> 01:03:55,320
response essentially by the Germans was, uh, a guy named

915
01:03:55,559 --> 01:03:58,679
Abraham Isau. He was chairman of the quote Reich Bureau

916
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,360
of Standards. What translates the right grous the right grou

917
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:06,760
of standards in education, specifically the physical sciences. Was it's,

918
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,199
you know, a domain of authority and kind of keeping

919
01:04:10,519 --> 01:04:14,840
you know, such that the universities could be corralled into

920
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:20,519
a directly military role. It was, you know this this

921
01:04:20,679 --> 01:04:24,000
was this was kind of like this, this is kind

922
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:28,119
of like the party's way of uh of, uh of

923
01:04:28,199 --> 01:04:30,280
not just keeping tabs on these things, but trying but

924
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:32,639
you know, if we're trying to direct such potential as

925
01:04:32,639 --> 01:04:35,519
it he emerged in a constructive capacity. But of course,

926
01:04:35,639 --> 01:04:39,559
again we're talking about you know, literally cutting edge theoretical

927
01:04:39,559 --> 01:04:42,079
physics here. Like you can't pick and choose like who

928
01:04:42,079 --> 01:04:44,079
you want to stay aff these things. You need people

929
01:04:44,119 --> 01:04:47,320
actually understand the damn thing in question. You need and

930
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:50,199
beyond the people are competent. It's like he wasn't any

931
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,920
kind of like national socialist or party man, but he

932
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:59,480
was basically patriotic. He uh, he'd been, uh, he've been

933
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:03,920
a leading a already on high frequency electronics. He'd been

934
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:07,199
an academic physicist for most of his career, but he

935
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:10,199
was politically active. Again, he wasn't he wasn't any kind

936
01:05:10,199 --> 01:05:13,119
of like party loyalist, but he had followed kind of

937
01:05:13,119 --> 01:05:16,039
the sentence of nationalism in Germany and he was like

938
01:05:16,079 --> 01:05:18,360
definitely behind it, you at least in like a but

939
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:21,760
but frankly, I mean like patriarch Germany's generally were you know,

940
01:05:22,519 --> 01:05:27,599
but he uh, he was excited at you know, kind

941
01:05:27,599 --> 01:05:30,159
of nuclear physics being brought within his you know, kind

942
01:05:30,199 --> 01:05:33,639
of a number of authority tron lay that way, and

943
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:37,199
he convened a conference I think we mentioned the GENA conference,

944
01:05:38,679 --> 01:05:42,360
which was directly convened in response, you know, to the

945
01:05:42,599 --> 01:05:49,079
UH announcement by the by the French researchers UH on

946
01:05:50,599 --> 01:05:56,280
their applied UH experiments on a short lasted course was

947
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:59,320
you know, ada Han Hahn was unable to attend because

948
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:05,960
he was engaged otherwise in Sweden. Professor a guy named

949
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:13,679
Professor Joseph Mattok from Vienna UH was uh was was

950
01:06:13,719 --> 01:06:19,239
deputized in favor of his you know, regular assistant Lisa Meitner,

951
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:21,079
who is also in Sweden, you know, with the man

952
01:06:21,159 --> 01:06:23,480
himself to like to speak for him, mber like sit

953
01:06:23,559 --> 01:06:28,880
in for him. The conference took place in you know,

954
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:32,639
relative se Recey April twenty ninth, nineteen thirty nine, at

955
01:06:32,639 --> 01:06:37,960
the Ministry of Education building. As we talked about the

956
01:06:38,159 --> 01:06:43,920
UH doctor uh doctor doms who's the head of the

957
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:51,480
Ministry's research department, he vocally attagged Hahn in absentia for publishing,

958
01:06:51,519 --> 01:06:54,480
you know, his vital discovery. What he perceived is like

959
01:06:54,519 --> 01:06:57,480
his vital discovery, you know, to the scientific to the

960
01:06:57,519 --> 01:07:01,559
wider sign offic community. And that's not the way science works, okay,

961
01:07:01,599 --> 01:07:04,280
unless you're I mean, if head had just been two

962
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:09,480
years later, you know, and had Germany been UH actively

963
01:07:09,519 --> 01:07:12,000
at war, I think that case could be made. But

964
01:07:12,079 --> 01:07:16,440
even then, again, this was not the main Hadant project. Nobody,

965
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:26,480
nobody had, nobody among this coterie of new physicists in UH,

966
01:07:26,599 --> 01:07:31,280
in Germany or Austria, you know, had an idea that

967
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:34,239
you know, this is a military technology. I mean beyond

968
01:07:34,239 --> 01:07:40,320
the fact that excuse me, I'm sorry, beyond the fact

969
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:44,199
that you know any kind of any kind of apply

970
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:47,519
technology where you're talking about a truly renewable energy source

971
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:54,039
that theoretically, at least you know is is essentially inexhaustible.

972
01:07:54,639 --> 01:07:57,199
I mean, yeah, obviously the military implications of that, just say,

973
01:07:57,239 --> 01:08:00,159
the military implications and everything else. But that's but that

974
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:03,039
was that that that would have been like saying you

975
01:08:03,079 --> 01:08:05,760
know that you know that would that would have been

976
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:07,840
like saying that, you know, aviation something should have been

977
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:11,920
kept secret, you know, as it was under as you know,

978
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:14,599
as as trials underway in America to you know, perfect

979
01:08:14,639 --> 01:08:19,880
the truly viable aircraft, but American elsewhere. But the uh

980
01:08:20,199 --> 01:08:23,119
but uh, Matt talk took up. Uh he went to

981
01:08:23,159 --> 01:08:26,560
bed very much on Hans's behalf, and he uh he

982
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:29,840
basically cowed the committee into silence. You know things, we're

983
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:33,239
not We're not a military, this is not a military.

984
01:08:33,239 --> 01:08:36,760
This is not neither a party nor a military you

985
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:38,720
know conference, you know, we're not We're not under your

986
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:41,439
authority or anybody else's. You know, basically like, how dare

987
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:44,119
you insult the man who's you know, basically changed the

988
01:08:44,119 --> 01:08:47,800
world by his research and discoveries. And that honestly set

989
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:51,359
the tenor man like not not just in the Genda conference,

990
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:57,039
but moving onward again like it something like it described

991
01:08:57,079 --> 01:08:59,319
never could have happened in the Soviet Union, Like no

992
01:08:59,319 --> 01:09:03,119
matter what no matter what the technology under discussion was,

993
01:09:03,119 --> 01:09:08,279
even if it was a purely speculative technology at that

994
01:09:08,399 --> 01:09:10,760
at that juncture, you know, so it's there is there

995
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:14,279
is more of a you know, I say this is important,

996
01:09:14,319 --> 01:09:18,079
not just because I've got you know, peculiar fixations as

997
01:09:18,079 --> 01:09:21,640
a as a researcher, but you know, it's it's it's

998
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:28,079
important to you know, developing a a properly characteristic view

999
01:09:28,119 --> 01:09:31,640
of the German Reich and and its internal situation. You know,

1000
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:33,880
this is not a place where scientists or cowed by

1001
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:36,039
the party or by the regime. You know, there certainly

1002
01:09:36,079 --> 01:09:39,000
were as always representative official doom. We try to throw

1003
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:41,000
their weight around, but they were not in the driver's

1004
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:45,479
se here at all for a lot of reasons. The

1005
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:51,680
uh basically the long story short, in addition to a

1006
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:57,359
lot of theoretical postulates unrelated directly, you know, to the

1007
01:09:57,399 --> 01:09:59,880
subject at hand, which I'm no understanding of because I'm

1008
01:09:59,920 --> 01:10:03,159
not physicists at all. I'm not even like an educated

1009
01:10:03,239 --> 01:10:09,640
leaman in physics. Okay, and first admit that, but to uh,

1010
01:10:10,319 --> 01:10:12,760
they kind of highlight of the event if you want

1011
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:17,239
to look at those terms. To Gottingen professors, uh, got injuiced,

1012
01:10:17,239 --> 01:10:21,359
and it got even Honley. They they they outlined once again,

1013
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:23,800
I mean not them once again, but they'd outlined again

1014
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:28,039
as was on the mind of every man present, you know, ah,

1015
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:32,399
the practicability of of of a quote uranium burner. Okay,

1016
01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:35,359
I mean this was again, this was such that there

1017
01:10:35,359 --> 01:10:39,079
could be said to be uh a sort of priority

1018
01:10:39,119 --> 01:10:42,640
afforded any conceptual model. I mean this, this was it okay,

1019
01:10:43,079 --> 01:10:49,319
And again that that obviously has tremendous military application. But

1020
01:10:49,359 --> 01:10:52,880
it but not in the way that was being bandied

1021
01:10:52,920 --> 01:11:00,560
by you know, uh people, uh, people like Einstein later on,

1022
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:07,279
and and also by some uh some uh some people,

1023
01:11:07,319 --> 01:11:11,720
particularly in m I six and uh later on oss

1024
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:14,199
in the case the former I it's interesting and we'll

1025
01:11:14,199 --> 01:11:20,520
get into that the uh, the I don't want to

1026
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:22,399
jump people ahead. We'll get into the kind of the

1027
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:25,279
take from London or the view from London and the

1028
01:11:25,279 --> 01:11:29,239
potentiality of an atomic bomb. But and in the event,

1029
01:11:31,239 --> 01:11:36,880
the h there's been a general band placed uh on

1030
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:45,560
the export of uranium compounds from Germany, and uh the

1031
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:56,359
right Ministry of Economics was uh they were adjusting, uh well,

1032
01:11:56,399 --> 01:11:58,800
they they were They're trying to determine like there was

1033
01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:04,479
a recently capture minds in Czechoslovakia. I cannot pronounce uh

1034
01:12:05,319 --> 01:12:09,640
yakima jakumal if anybody on deck, like in the comments,

1035
01:12:10,039 --> 01:12:13,680
I'm sorry if I'm butchering that, I first admit I

1036
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:20,880
I'm terrible with these pronunciations. But Central Europe is uh

1037
01:12:21,359 --> 01:12:26,399
is rich in in uh in uranium war, okay, like

1038
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:33,640
natural uranium war. The uh this this hadn't been mined yet,

1039
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:37,640
but it, you know, had been accessed in some basic capacity.

1040
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:41,439
But you know, uh who basically who is going to

1041
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:44,720
get get it first? Like hadn't been decided? You know,

1042
01:12:45,039 --> 01:12:48,079
was it just gonna be spirreled away and given to

1043
01:12:48,159 --> 01:12:50,560
the you know, given to the O k W to

1044
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:53,479
basically sit on so nobody else could have it? You know?

1045
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:56,960
Was it was it gonna be given to you know

1046
01:12:57,039 --> 01:13:01,079
this uh to what what? What would was basically gonna

1047
01:13:01,079 --> 01:13:03,359
be given it? Like you know the the Burgening kind

1048
01:13:03,399 --> 01:13:07,680
of committee, that uh Burgning kind of quorum that attended

1049
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:10,319
the conference at Jenna, Like what what would become of it?

1050
01:13:12,239 --> 01:13:15,840
But it uh what they had allowed was a uranium

1051
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:19,199
sample had had been dispatched to Gotha gen for special

1052
01:13:19,239 --> 01:13:28,520
analysis and the special analyst, uh who was uh dispatched

1053
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:34,039
you know to essentially to to report his findings. Was

1054
01:13:34,039 --> 01:13:37,279
was was a guy from the War Office? Okay, and

1055
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:40,279
what was not known to the attendees of the GENA

1056
01:13:40,359 --> 01:13:44,960
conference and was not probably known to really anybody the

1057
01:13:45,079 --> 01:13:46,960
right chancery. I'm sure that there was some line of

1058
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:52,319
communication there and Hitler himself, I speculate, and again this

1059
01:13:52,399 --> 01:13:55,680
is pure speculation, probably knew just because he was so

1060
01:13:55,840 --> 01:14:00,319
hands on in terms of UH weapons development and things

1061
01:14:00,319 --> 01:14:06,399
like that. The War Office had begun its own uranium

1062
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:12,760
research program. But again, you know, it's if they were

1063
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:15,079
developing a bomb, and if this was like the Raizon

1064
01:14:15,199 --> 01:14:20,920
deetra Avid, you know, like why why why why why

1065
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:23,479
why were they appealing to civilians at all? You know,

1066
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:26,760
I mean it because that would presume the knowledge that

1067
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:30,399
that would presume not just the the conceptual basis for

1068
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:34,079
such a program, but the knowledge in order to implement it,

1069
01:14:34,119 --> 01:14:36,000
as well as the political will. And it's just not

1070
01:14:36,319 --> 01:14:42,800
you know, it depics. What develops here is I think

1071
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:49,560
an dis futal picture of you know, basically everybody, uh,

1072
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:55,399
everybody within the party administration who had understanding, you know,

1073
01:14:55,399 --> 01:14:58,920
who's realistic about you know, the fact that you know,

1074
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:01,600
inevitably like a war is going to emerge between you know,

1075
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:05,079
the Third Reich and the Soviet Union. Anybody in the

1076
01:15:05,079 --> 01:15:07,960
scientemic community you know, who was at all engaged you

1077
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:10,479
know with the reality in national politics at the time,

1078
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:16,039
and anybody who uh you know had uh had been

1079
01:15:16,079 --> 01:15:19,359
paying attention, you know to to the new physics with

1080
01:15:19,399 --> 01:15:21,520
any with any sort of understanding of it beyond that

1081
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:23,560
of a layman, like understood that there was some kind

1082
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:26,720
of like great applied potential for this, but that might

1083
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:29,319
not be emergent for twenty years. You know, it might

1084
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:33,720
you know, it might never be fully realized. But again

1085
01:15:33,760 --> 01:15:36,359
too like it wasn't clear what that was, and such

1086
01:15:36,399 --> 01:15:38,640
that there was any kind of like agreement in these

1087
01:15:38,720 --> 01:15:43,000
like very kind of crude conceptual terms. In Germany it

1088
01:15:43,079 --> 01:15:45,359
was as you know, it was basically as like this

1089
01:15:45,399 --> 01:15:47,560
is an energy source. That's one who changed the world,

1090
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:49,319
you know, it was not like this is this is

1091
01:15:49,359 --> 01:16:00,159
how we built super bombs, you know. And interestingly, but uh,

1092
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:07,760
such that the United Kingdom had a view of this.

1093
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:17,960
After the chairman of a Belgian mining concern he uh

1094
01:16:18,359 --> 01:16:23,239
he got wind of the situation in Czechoslovakia with respect

1095
01:16:23,279 --> 01:16:33,039
to uranium. A a guy named m Edgar c Ga.

1096
01:16:35,079 --> 01:16:37,479
He was president of the Belgian Mining consider and a

1097
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:41,119
union miniere. Okay, I think that's how you pronounced it.

1098
01:16:43,159 --> 01:16:47,560
He contacted, uh, a guy named Tizard who was chairman

1099
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:49,840
of the Committee and the Scientific Survey of Air Defense

1100
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:56,079
in London, Okay. And when he did, uh, the outcome

1101
01:16:56,079 --> 01:16:59,199
of their meeting was basically, Tizard he was unwilling to

1102
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:02,680
he was willing to provide the funds or the authority

1103
01:17:03,359 --> 01:17:09,319
for Sindiire or Cindiata to to purchase all available uranium stocks,

1104
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:13,640
which there were several thousand tons in Belgium and far

1105
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:17,960
more available in the open market that it had been

1106
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:23,640
extricated from Czechoslovakia or extracted you know, before the before

1107
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:28,359
the before the country fell apart and uh, you know

1108
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:34,239
what have you when and became came under the dominion

1109
01:17:34,319 --> 01:17:39,840
of the Reich. But you know it, Uh, the fact was,

1110
01:17:40,239 --> 01:17:45,520
I mean it this was not it was the UK

1111
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:50,399
was very much by this point, this was May of

1112
01:17:50,439 --> 01:17:53,199
nineteen thirty nine, you know, they were shifting to a

1113
01:17:53,279 --> 01:17:55,560
war footing, you know, I mean, it can't be argued

1114
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:58,079
that this was you know, oh, you know, the climate

1115
01:17:58,079 --> 01:18:03,159
of appeasement was ruling and nobody you know realized you know,

1116
01:18:03,239 --> 01:18:05,399
the danger that lay ahead. If you want to take

1117
01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:08,159
that kind of court historian's view, I mean that that

1118
01:18:08,319 --> 01:18:15,079
they can't be argued. Okay, the the uh what Tizard

1119
01:18:15,199 --> 01:18:21,840
did say is that, uh, if some kind of mass

1120
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:27,319
of UH uranium reserves or at least that which was

1121
01:18:27,319 --> 01:18:30,279
then available in the open market, if the bulk of

1122
01:18:30,279 --> 01:18:33,319
that ED should fall into enemy hands, he said that

1123
01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:37,960
maybe something that you know, that that could be catastrophic

1124
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:40,680
and strategic terms. But I mean it wasn't it wasn't

1125
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:42,880
clear what they was. You know. It's like it was

1126
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:45,840
basically that, you know, we hear that, you know, the

1127
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:48,159
crowds want it, so we don't want you know, because

1128
01:18:48,159 --> 01:18:50,359
they wanted We want them to not have it, you know,

1129
01:18:50,399 --> 01:18:52,560
but we don't want it either because it may be nothing.

1130
01:18:53,359 --> 01:19:00,479
You know. The uh, the Admiral basically just are like

1131
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:03,800
took this to the annualty which you know in in

1132
01:19:04,199 --> 01:19:07,479
the UK. Then as I assume now even I always

1133
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:10,960
said always had outsized clout in terms of like war

1134
01:19:11,039 --> 01:19:19,000
and peace questions, they said that, you know, they said that, uh,

1135
01:19:20,359 --> 01:19:21,760
you know, not only to went out of the funds

1136
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:26,159
they gamble with on this like literally but they said

1137
01:19:26,159 --> 01:19:29,880
the possibility of developing a quote explosive of unprecedented power

1138
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:33,399
from uranium was so remote as to be negligible. So

1139
01:19:33,479 --> 01:19:35,479
again this was like science fiction. Okay, it kind of

1140
01:19:35,479 --> 01:19:38,600
reminds me of if you keep up with I don't

1141
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:41,359
know if anybody does, but I and maybe they've moved

1142
01:19:41,399 --> 01:19:44,680
on from this kind of fixation. But like some years back,

1143
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:47,600
you know, if you picked up parameters, you know, like

1144
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:50,479
the USM ME War College magazine or read these uh

1145
01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:52,680
speaking of the bridge, right, some of these like Royal

1146
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:55,600
Navy publications they was talking about like rail guns and

1147
01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:58,560
these kind of like super guns that we're gonna that

1148
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:02,720
were were primarily gonna be based on you know, Uh,

1149
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:04,760
there's basically gonna be like there's some kind of new

1150
01:20:04,840 --> 01:20:07,960
like quasi surface warfare platform that's just going to like

1151
01:20:08,039 --> 01:20:10,800
change everything. You know. It was a lot of uh,

1152
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:13,720
I mean that is now like I mean now it's

1153
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:16,840
more you know, guys kind of trying to rationalize already

1154
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:20,560
bloated budgets and stuff. But there's there's always there's always

1155
01:20:20,600 --> 01:20:23,319
there's always uh, there's always generals and admirables, as well

1156
01:20:23,319 --> 01:20:26,960
as civilian analysts and intelligence men, you know, like like

1157
01:20:27,079 --> 01:20:29,560
sounding alarm bells about about some future you know, like

1158
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:32,399
super weapon. You know, this was not like this was

1159
01:20:32,399 --> 01:20:36,760
not something new, Okay, yeah, I mean they the twentieth

1160
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:41,760
century is remarkable in terms of the punctuated the punctuated

1161
01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:45,720
equilibrium as so to speak of you know, scientific advancement

1162
01:20:45,760 --> 01:20:49,159
by by leaps and bounds. But this this idea that

1163
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:52,039
you know, there was there was a firm understanding of

1164
01:20:52,079 --> 01:20:56,960
the potential of uranium that and that you know this

1165
01:20:57,159 --> 01:21:01,439
somehow would you know as we make you know, Germany

1166
01:21:02,239 --> 01:21:04,920
it's strategic situation as it was in thirty nine, you know,

1167
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:10,520
the master of the world. Like that's that's ridiculous. G. P.

1168
01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:15,439
Thompson had an interesting take. Uh he was, he was.

1169
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:19,560
He was a leading British physicist, perhaps perhaps the leading

1170
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:25,000
physicist who was close to uh you know, the like

1171
01:21:25,119 --> 01:21:29,279
not just the War Party as it were, but to uh,

1172
01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:34,680
you know, military circles and uh both intelligence and the admiralty.

1173
01:21:36,479 --> 01:21:40,239
He said, uh, you know, it's highly he said, he said,

1174
01:21:40,279 --> 01:21:46,479
the Germans are probably more afraid of US developing some

1175
01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:50,399
uranian based technology. You know is is than than we

1176
01:21:50,439 --> 01:21:55,560
are of them. And uh he suggested, he suggested a

1177
01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:59,119
dis info campaign indicating that the British had in fact

1178
01:21:59,159 --> 01:22:03,760
tested uranium bombs of unprecedented force, you know, so potent

1179
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:09,279
that the authorities in you know stopped uh stopped testing

1180
01:22:09,319 --> 01:22:13,680
of them for fear of of compromising the uh compromising

1181
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:22,640
the uh the program completely, you know it. Uh. Churchill

1182
01:22:23,119 --> 01:22:30,399
himself he said that, and he talked of am I

1183
01:22:30,399 --> 01:22:32,279
do like church was like something of a technology. I mean,

1184
01:22:32,279 --> 01:22:34,359
on the one hand, he's like pans a lighte, which

1185
01:22:34,359 --> 01:22:38,439
he was and he and he he he he was

1186
01:22:38,479 --> 01:22:41,439
a disaster as a as as a commander in chief,

1187
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:43,920
but he did have like a fetish for like wartech,

1188
01:22:44,239 --> 01:22:47,079
you know, I albeit not in an informed way, but

1189
01:22:47,279 --> 01:22:50,119
his view was the same. He said that, like any

1190
01:22:50,119 --> 01:22:53,000
any German, talk of a quote superbomb is pure bluff,

1191
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:57,119
you know. Uh. He's like, you know this is ridiculous,

1192
01:22:57,159 --> 01:22:59,760
Like nothing like this. There's there's no indicators, there's no

1193
01:22:59,840 --> 01:23:01,399
kind of reindicators that something like this is going to

1194
01:23:01,439 --> 01:23:05,760
be deployed, you know. And he said, even if it was,

1195
01:23:06,159 --> 01:23:11,319
you know, the the uh you know that both the

1196
01:23:11,319 --> 01:23:14,319
Admiralty and the Air Ministry as well as the army.

1197
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:17,840
You know, their their view is that, you know, even

1198
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:22,039
if such an application have been cultivated, it would you know,

1199
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:24,439
anything that would lead to results on a large scale

1200
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:27,199
would not be emergent for years, you know. And this

1201
01:23:27,359 --> 01:23:29,640
was Churchill talking. You know, this is like arts Wormont

1202
01:23:29,720 --> 01:23:32,920
or ChIL you know. So, I mean it's uh the

1203
01:23:33,079 --> 01:23:35,960
uh he asked a question.

1204
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, could that the line of, you know, we've

1205
01:23:42,960 --> 01:23:51,079
been testing these plutonium based weapons and it's remarkable what

1206
01:23:51,239 --> 01:23:53,319
the kind of power they have. Could that be a

1207
01:23:53,319 --> 01:23:57,239
way of propagandizing and saying, we know what these things

1208
01:23:57,279 --> 01:24:02,319
can do, we can't allow the enemy to have them.

1209
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:05,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that that's where I think that. I

1210
01:24:05,159 --> 01:24:08,479
think that I think the people who were agitating for

1211
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:11,319
that disinvo campaign, I think that was the subtext of

1212
01:24:11,359 --> 01:24:15,560
it too. You know, it wasn't just to you know,

1213
01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:20,000
kind of like bluff the Germans, because frankly, the UK

1214
01:24:20,159 --> 01:24:23,319
did not really have the forces and being to to

1215
01:24:23,439 --> 01:24:27,279
bluff in other ways other than Ledgard Maine. But yeah,

1216
01:24:27,319 --> 01:24:29,840
also I think it could have it could have served yeah,

1217
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:31,760
exactly what you said. It could have served as you know,

1218
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:36,079
an ongoing pretext as well, you know, like these kinds

1219
01:24:36,119 --> 01:24:38,399
of things are being developed in and enemy hands. Oh

1220
01:24:38,439 --> 01:24:40,560
my god, like basically became you know, kind of like

1221
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:44,079
the the Lbit. It was, it was, it was, it

1222
01:24:44,119 --> 01:24:46,560
was top secret. But what became, you know, like the

1223
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:50,920
the New Dealer rationale for the Manhattan Project. But it's

1224
01:24:51,039 --> 01:24:52,880
but again, I mean the reason it didn't is because

1225
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:55,920
it's seeming, it like, just so outlandish. And again, these weren't.

1226
01:24:56,199 --> 01:24:58,359
These weren't a bunch of you know, these weren't a

1227
01:24:58,359 --> 01:25:00,520
bunch of World War One generals. I go, and I

1228
01:25:00,520 --> 01:25:02,800
don't know about this. You know, this this this high

1229
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:05,439
fluting science like you know, these were like these were

1230
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:07,600
guys at the top of the field, you know in

1231
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:10,359
the UK, you know, in the nineteen thirties. I mean

1232
01:25:10,359 --> 01:25:13,760
to say that like they they didn't you know, have

1233
01:25:14,159 --> 01:25:21,039
an indigenous you know, uh, academic community that was very

1234
01:25:21,119 --> 01:25:25,199
much on the cusp of new physics research. I mean

1235
01:25:25,199 --> 01:25:27,279
that it is preposterous. It just didn't seem it just

1236
01:25:27,319 --> 01:25:30,640
it just wasn't. It wasn't what people were thinking. Okay,

1237
01:25:30,760 --> 01:25:33,720
And I mean, yeah, okay, anytime you're talking about anytime

1238
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:37,600
you're talking about anytime you're talking about a rare element. Okay,

1239
01:25:38,119 --> 01:25:40,479
obviously like explosives, whthing comes to mind, this is like

1240
01:25:40,479 --> 01:25:45,680
the nature of it. But that wasn't This was not

1241
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:48,079
something that was just a universe. Like the way it's

1242
01:25:48,079 --> 01:25:50,119
presented is that there's just something that was like universally

1243
01:25:50,159 --> 01:25:53,159
understood to be like you know, the potential of a

1244
01:25:54,239 --> 01:25:57,880
you know, of a of uranium, and it was only

1245
01:25:57,920 --> 01:26:02,000
a matter of time before you know, the the correct

1246
01:26:02,039 --> 01:26:05,760
formula as it were, was calculated in order to like

1247
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:10,720
bring it into reality, you know, And that's uh, you know,

1248
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:15,479
all we can the closest we can get to literally

1249
01:26:15,479 --> 01:26:20,239
peeking inside the minds of people in the epoch is

1250
01:26:20,520 --> 01:26:25,039
you know there you know, their their declarations, either their

1251
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:27,319
either you know there were there there's you know there

1252
01:26:27,560 --> 01:26:32,079
either their private diaries and their correspondences or you know,

1253
01:26:32,159 --> 01:26:37,119
their their public declarations or their statements. The presence of witnesses,

1254
01:26:37,159 --> 01:26:42,239
and there's not any there's not any indication that you know,

1255
01:26:42,319 --> 01:26:46,079
anybody within the scientific or military community in Europe as

1256
01:26:46,079 --> 01:26:50,960
of nineteen thirty nine, you know, had this in within

1257
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:54,960
their contemplation. And again part of this was part of

1258
01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:58,079
this was uh, you know, part of this was a

1259
01:26:58,079 --> 01:27:02,079
conceptual bias because again, like it if you're if you're

1260
01:27:03,159 --> 01:27:08,239
if you're a Felt marshal in the Wehrmacht, or you know,

1261
01:27:08,279 --> 01:27:11,479
if you're a British admiral of the Royal Navy, Like

1262
01:27:11,520 --> 01:27:14,920
why what what's what's an atomic bomb gonna do for you? You know,

1263
01:27:14,960 --> 01:27:17,600
like what like honestly, like how how is that gonna solve?

1264
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:21,960
You know, the the exigencies that you're charged with resolving?

1265
01:27:22,239 --> 01:27:26,199
You know, I mean it's Germany, Germany becomes a superpower

1266
01:27:26,239 --> 01:27:32,439
and and and and resolves. Uh, it's uh and and

1267
01:27:32,560 --> 01:27:36,319
resolves like the long emergency. It's it's faced with if

1268
01:27:36,319 --> 01:27:38,439
it if it, if it can drop atomic bombs on people.

1269
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:41,079
I mean, it's not you know again it it's there's

1270
01:27:41,119 --> 01:27:47,920
a very there's very there's a very peculiar strategic configuration

1271
01:27:48,720 --> 01:27:52,640
where where nuclear weapons have real utility and that basically

1272
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:58,000
never emerges. And you know it certainly it certainly wasn't

1273
01:27:58,039 --> 01:28:01,279
emergent in the case of Germany in nineteen thirty nine,

1274
01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:05,359
you know, And people can argue that point. I ate want,

1275
01:28:05,439 --> 01:28:08,279
but I don't I get to come across a convincing

1276
01:28:08,439 --> 01:28:15,159
case otherwise, even in even in uh, even in the

1277
01:28:15,159 --> 01:28:27,560
abstract and more concrete terms relying on UH. Relying on

1278
01:28:27,600 --> 01:28:34,600
the direct UH advice and claims of a professor F. A.

1279
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:43,319
Lindemann and later Lord Cherwell. Churchill wrote to the Secretary

1280
01:28:43,359 --> 01:28:47,680
of State for UH for Air Defense, for air and

1281
01:28:47,720 --> 01:28:54,520
Air Defense saying that you know, any suggestion of of UH,

1282
01:28:54,960 --> 01:29:01,279
of quoting Nazi super weapons were without foundation. He said,

1283
01:29:01,439 --> 01:29:05,000
only UH, you know, as is expert, namely Lindham and

1284
01:29:05,199 --> 01:29:09,319
had told him, UH, only a minor constituent of uranium

1285
01:29:09,319 --> 01:29:12,319
was effective, which which which you know was took which

1286
01:29:12,399 --> 01:29:16,439
took quote many years to extract. You know, the chain

1287
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:20,399
process can take place only I've concentrated in a large mass.

1288
01:29:20,880 --> 01:29:25,159
You know, the as soon as the energy develops, you know, uh,

1289
01:29:25,399 --> 01:29:28,640
it's you know likely that you know, it would acquire

1290
01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:31,800
a mild detonation instead of a chain reaction which presumably

1291
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:34,159
you know, would would would would incerate you know, like

1292
01:29:34,199 --> 01:29:36,520
the uranium core that was needed in the first place.

1293
01:29:36,600 --> 01:29:39,840
And you know or you know, based on this based

1294
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:42,800
on the nature of these things and you know, unknown variables.

1295
01:29:43,199 --> 01:29:46,520
You know, if an adequate mass were cultivated, you know,

1296
01:29:47,159 --> 01:29:49,159
the chain reaction could ensue that you know, it was

1297
01:29:49,239 --> 01:29:52,520
just massively destructive, you know, and uh in ways we

1298
01:29:52,520 --> 01:29:55,880
can't even conceptualize, you know, all the basic uh not

1299
01:29:55,880 --> 01:29:58,000
that bassic in terms of uninformed because this was a

1300
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:01,079
new science, but all the kind of all all the

1301
01:30:01,159 --> 01:30:04,159
kind of you know, usual objections of the time to

1302
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:08,399
you know, why you know we don't this is you know,

1303
01:30:08,399 --> 01:30:10,000
we don't want to We don't want to tickle the

1304
01:30:10,039 --> 01:30:14,079
dragon's tail as it were, you know. And this was

1305
01:30:14,199 --> 01:30:17,359
Churchill himself, like relying on his experts, you know. And

1306
01:30:17,399 --> 01:30:21,479
it's again like what if anything he had he had

1307
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:25,760
an incentive to you know, confabulate you know, some kind

1308
01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:29,079
of threat where there wasn't one, not not diminish a

1309
01:30:29,119 --> 01:30:32,680
threat where you know where it was. I mean obviously

1310
01:30:33,680 --> 01:30:43,439
it's but that uh and just uh for those who

1311
01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:45,880
don't know a lot about this, and I mean I'm

1312
01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:49,760
one of them, so I'm not being pedantic, Like what

1313
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:54,960
is uranium and why uranium? Again, uranium is what was

1314
01:30:55,000 --> 01:31:02,239
available central Europe is uh one of the uh natural

1315
01:31:03,159 --> 01:31:08,399
you know deposits of uranium that can be uh harvested

1316
01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:14,399
and or extracted mind and you know utilized in weapons development. Obviously,

1317
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:18,800
uranium is a chemical element. Uh, what is a chemical element.

1318
01:31:18,880 --> 01:31:21,560
It's an irreducible substance that cannot be broken down into

1319
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:26,600
other substances. It's symbols you. It's atomic number is ninety

1320
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:31,840
two UH. In solid form, it's a silvery gray metal.

1321
01:31:33,840 --> 01:31:38,359
It UH. Uranium atoms ninety two protons and ninety two electrons,

1322
01:31:39,239 --> 01:31:44,279
of which six are valanced electrons. UH. Uranium radioactively decays

1323
01:31:44,359 --> 01:31:49,199
by emitting alpha radiation. And the halflight of this is

1324
01:31:50,520 --> 01:31:53,319
it's between something like two hundred thousand and like four

1325
01:31:53,359 --> 01:31:57,159
point five billion years sort of isotopes, so like uranium

1326
01:31:57,279 --> 01:32:00,600
like this is this was like revolutionary medium like date

1327
01:32:00,640 --> 01:32:03,039
the Earth like quite literally I did not know that

1328
01:32:03,119 --> 01:32:08,520
until recently. But the most common isotopes in natural uranium

1329
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:14,680
is uranium two thirty eight and uranium two thirty five. Okay,

1330
01:32:15,359 --> 01:32:19,439
and uranium incidentally is the highest atomic weight of the

1331
01:32:19,439 --> 01:32:25,960
primordially occurring element primordially occurring elements. Now why uranium two

1332
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:33,520
thirty five urinum two thirty five is uh, it's uh.

1333
01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:40,640
It's in every in every every thousand parts about in

1334
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:44,159
every thousand parts of natural uranium, there's about seven parts

1335
01:32:44,199 --> 01:32:46,800
called lighter isotope, which is the mass number two thirty

1336
01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:51,520
five the chemical properties are the same obviously, but the

1337
01:32:51,520 --> 01:32:58,079
physical properties differ. Uranium thre thirty five. Essentially, it's gotta

1338
01:32:58,119 --> 01:33:05,520
be the uh, the atomic structure of it's got to

1339
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:09,079
be manipulated in a way so that, in very crude terms,

1340
01:33:10,319 --> 01:33:14,680
it does not absorb, uh, what it is being bombarded with,

1341
01:33:15,000 --> 01:33:20,119
you know, like the the reaction has to actually be cultivated. Okay,

1342
01:33:20,399 --> 01:33:22,880
and this can only be achieved with the uranium twe

1343
01:33:22,880 --> 01:33:33,359
thirty five isotope. Okay. The uh. Such that Professor Esau

1344
01:33:33,520 --> 01:33:36,479
had any idea the urnium two thirty five was like

1345
01:33:36,760 --> 01:33:40,840
something was like special that it, you know, it was

1346
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:46,560
distinguishable in terms of its potential for you know, applied

1347
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:54,840
applied utility, you know, like military or otherwise. He if

1348
01:33:54,840 --> 01:33:57,359
he knew, if he had a deeper understanding than his

1349
01:33:57,399 --> 01:34:01,000
colleagues of why, he didn't disclose that, but he did

1350
01:34:01,039 --> 01:34:03,880
say that at once, we should secure all of the

1351
01:34:03,920 --> 01:34:07,079
able uranium stocks in Germany and we should cultivate uranium

1352
01:34:07,119 --> 01:34:10,960
two thirty five where we find it. He said that

1353
01:34:11,000 --> 01:34:14,680
it joints research group over his administration, but representing you know,

1354
01:34:14,760 --> 01:34:21,119
like all interested factions you know, party, state, military, you know. Uh,

1355
01:34:21,199 --> 01:34:23,680
And this was you know, people kind of like shrug

1356
01:34:23,760 --> 01:34:26,159
this off, like well, that's other asyl like trying to

1357
01:34:26,840 --> 01:34:31,039
you know, insinuate himself into some kind of you know,

1358
01:34:31,720 --> 01:34:34,880
hancho role, I mean, which within with under under the

1359
01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:36,960
under the German Reich, especially you know in the pre

1360
01:34:37,039 --> 01:34:40,960
war years that was not uncommon, but or they kind

1361
01:34:40,960 --> 01:34:44,239
of viewed him as just you know, another scientists kind

1362
01:34:44,279 --> 01:34:48,359
of you know, being hysterical. And for most of the

1363
01:34:48,399 --> 01:34:51,000
people present at the at the GENA conference and these

1364
01:34:51,039 --> 01:34:55,920
subsequent sin of meetings of this coterie that had you know,

1365
01:34:56,560 --> 01:34:59,439
that was involved in the uh you know, or that

1366
01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:02,800
there that was know within this kind of core of

1367
01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:07,560
people from the Department of Educational Standards as well as

1368
01:35:07,600 --> 01:35:10,479
the War Office. You know that nobody had heard about

1369
01:35:10,680 --> 01:35:14,479
uranium or uranium research until until the war broke out.

1370
01:35:14,600 --> 01:35:21,880
You know, as it happened. When the war did break out,

1371
01:35:22,720 --> 01:35:25,960
there was ah, you know, there was the there was

1372
01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:29,039
there was the there was the nominally civilian research team

1373
01:35:29,399 --> 01:35:32,920
that we just mentioned that the War Office had kind

1374
01:35:32,960 --> 01:35:35,600
of secretly you know organized and like I said, like

1375
01:35:35,680 --> 01:35:37,600
I I believe there's a direct line from them to

1376
01:35:37,640 --> 01:35:39,840
the chance for Adolf Hitler, although I can't prove that.

1377
01:35:40,600 --> 01:35:44,600
But uh, there were actually two teams in total working

1378
01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:47,600
on relatedly small scale uranium research like on the day

1379
01:35:47,640 --> 01:35:52,760
World War two broke out. Okay, at doctor Kurt Diebner,

1380
01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:55,840
who's the who's the here the armies expert on nuclear

1381
01:35:55,840 --> 01:36:06,560
physics of these uh? The uh the the the Deepners

1382
01:36:06,640 --> 01:36:12,760
was sam honestly dismantled the very day after Brendan, France

1383
01:36:12,760 --> 01:36:17,199
declared one in Germany PROSESL somehow to hear an interview

1384
01:36:17,239 --> 01:36:23,800
with General Becker, who's the chief of Army Ordnance. He

1385
01:36:23,840 --> 01:36:29,479
obtained a promise of full War Office support and full

1386
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:34,760
and exclusive support for his uh, for his you know,

1387
01:36:34,800 --> 01:36:38,119
for his team's research endeavors that the expensed that Deepeners. Now,

1388
01:36:38,520 --> 01:36:40,520
some people will speculate it's kind of like the dog

1389
01:36:40,600 --> 01:36:43,920
that didn't bark in evidentiary terms, like, well, how do

1390
01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:46,439
you pull this off? Especially considering he was a civilian

1391
01:36:46,479 --> 01:36:49,840
and Deepner was insinuated into the army establishment. He must

1392
01:36:49,880 --> 01:36:52,640
have he must have promised some kind of results. I

1393
01:36:52,640 --> 01:36:54,319
don't think that. I don't I don't see that as

1394
01:36:54,319 --> 01:36:59,239
possible because I mean, you know, Becker, among other things,

1395
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:01,720
you know, he get to that position without under having

1396
01:37:01,720 --> 01:37:05,640
a basic understanding of of of of you know, of

1397
01:37:05,720 --> 01:37:07,640
chemistry at least, you know, I mean it was You're

1398
01:37:07,640 --> 01:37:13,159
not talking about some man in the street as relates

1399
01:37:13,199 --> 01:37:16,840
to applied science, you know, even something that was then

1400
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:24,439
as kind of theoretically uh abstract or you know, unknown,

1401
01:37:24,920 --> 01:37:31,119
as as as atomic physics. But I I don't, you know,

1402
01:37:31,279 --> 01:37:33,119
I don't. I don't see what Ese could have produced

1403
01:37:33,159 --> 01:37:36,039
either in order to kind of like in consider or

1404
01:37:36,039 --> 01:37:41,680
in consideration of that guarantee that supposedly would have been

1405
01:37:41,680 --> 01:37:48,560
made that Deebner couldn't have. I speculated just comes down

1406
01:37:48,680 --> 01:37:51,239
to Becker having more confidence in one man over the other.

1407
01:37:51,359 --> 01:37:53,960
But again, who knows. I think all of this is

1408
01:37:54,039 --> 01:37:56,640
kind of much ado about nothing, because the point I

1409
01:37:56,640 --> 01:37:59,079
think the key takeaway is that this was not viewed

1410
01:37:59,079 --> 01:38:01,680
as a priority, you know, not that it was uh

1411
01:38:02,399 --> 01:38:05,760
you know, I I think probably improved terms. Becker didn't

1412
01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:09,079
really give a shit, you know. I mean he Germany

1413
01:38:09,119 --> 01:38:12,640
was now at war with Britain and France, you know,

1414
01:38:12,680 --> 01:38:14,960
and his priority was, you know, doing what he had

1415
01:38:15,000 --> 01:38:17,720
to win that war. You know, like what one agghead

1416
01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:20,079
is bringing to the table versus another one. Well, he

1417
01:38:20,159 --> 01:38:22,760
makes the better argument. He gets the you know, he

1418
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:25,560
gets the he gets the shudder, you know. I mean

1419
01:38:25,560 --> 01:38:28,079
that's these things so often are. And like I said,

1420
01:38:28,119 --> 01:38:30,840
I mean the speculation is basically people filling in the

1421
01:38:30,880 --> 01:38:34,159
gaps with what they want to to substantiate a narrative

1422
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:38,560
that's you know, not this not uh substantiated by the record,

1423
01:38:38,760 --> 01:38:45,000
you know. I mean, so that's species. Anyway, what Becker

1424
01:38:45,039 --> 01:38:48,359
did agree to, what Esau did come away with, aside

1425
01:38:48,359 --> 01:38:50,239
from like a promise of you know, kind of funding

1426
01:38:50,279 --> 01:38:56,720
and support, uh was an official voucher certifying the military

1427
01:38:56,760 --> 01:38:59,279
importance of the project for the war efforts. But I mean,

1428
01:38:59,319 --> 01:39:01,439
like all kinds of all kinds of things we're kind

1429
01:39:01,439 --> 01:39:04,680
of given that proverbial stand, especially later on and kind

1430
01:39:04,680 --> 01:39:06,640
of more liberally by the s s believe or not,

1431
01:39:06,760 --> 01:39:09,800
I mean anything and against the sas basically whatever you've

1432
01:39:09,800 --> 01:39:12,159
givens him or like any kind of signific merit, you know,

1433
01:39:12,479 --> 01:39:15,279
whether it was you know, like uh, you know if

1434
01:39:15,359 --> 01:39:18,319
id you know, transforming like you know, corny to jet

1435
01:39:18,359 --> 01:39:20,079
fu wooler and I mean silly, but you know what

1436
01:39:20,159 --> 01:39:23,039
I mean, like it, I don't like the fact that

1437
01:39:23,680 --> 01:39:26,520
the fact that I was able to the that he

1438
01:39:26,560 --> 01:39:31,039
was able to get you know, like the Chief Army ordinance,

1439
01:39:31,920 --> 01:39:34,680
you know, to to sign off on his research. I

1440
01:39:34,680 --> 01:39:36,960
mean that basically means he was competent then like whatever

1441
01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:39,560
he came up with, like probably would you know, be utile,

1442
01:39:39,880 --> 01:39:41,439
and whether it was or not, you know, like whatever

1443
01:39:41,479 --> 01:39:43,000
he came up with belong to the army, you know,

1444
01:39:43,119 --> 01:39:46,520
not not to not to not to any you know,

1445
01:39:46,600 --> 01:39:54,840
private sector or university patron. So that's oh, that's that's

1446
01:39:54,920 --> 01:39:58,720
kind of the foundation of uh, that's kind of the

1447
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:01,720
foundation of you know, like leading into the war, like

1448
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:08,199
what what the state of uh, you know, atomic research was.

1449
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:12,439
Of course, ultimately like during the war the title uh,

1450
01:40:12,560 --> 01:40:15,159
mister Irvings book the Virus House, I mean that was

1451
01:40:15,199 --> 01:40:22,560
the heavy water facility that was dedicated to you know,

1452
01:40:26,039 --> 01:40:29,239
that was dedicated to you know, cultivating uranium two thirty five.

1453
01:40:31,920 --> 01:40:35,479
So I mean there's something there. Yeah, and uh, I

1454
01:40:35,520 --> 01:40:37,439
hope not boring everybody to death. I'll try to wrap

1455
01:40:37,439 --> 01:40:41,399
this up in the next episode, but it but yeah,

1456
01:40:41,439 --> 01:40:42,840
that's I don't want to I don't want to get

1457
01:40:42,840 --> 01:40:44,479
into that now because then we'd be talking for the

1458
01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:51,159
next hour. But yeah, that's uh, that's uh, basically the

1459
01:40:51,159 --> 01:40:53,960
the foundation and you know, like I said, I think

1460
01:40:53,960 --> 01:40:56,039
it's the reason why I wanted to cover this now

1461
01:40:56,199 --> 01:40:57,800
was I think it's timely gonna ground to the ab

1462
01:40:57,840 --> 01:40:59,640
and Iron movie, which in a lot of ways is

1463
01:40:59,680 --> 01:41:01,680
not a bad film. I suppose you were Hollywood, and

1464
01:41:01,800 --> 01:41:04,520
like some people, I believe chrits reh Nolan was kind

1465
01:41:04,520 --> 01:41:08,359
of surreptigially signaling the political things. I mean, that's a

1466
01:41:08,439 --> 01:41:12,760
subject for another stream. But I thought it was timely.

1467
01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:13,000
Speaker 3: Man.

1468
01:41:13,039 --> 01:41:16,640
Speaker 2: I hope people are. I mean, it's it's essential understanding

1469
01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:19,880
the total picture of the conflict. So I hope people

1470
01:41:19,880 --> 01:41:25,119
are getting something out of it. The Feedbackcine's good so far.

1471
01:41:25,920 --> 01:41:26,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the.

1472
01:41:29,039 --> 01:41:31,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the very first time we ever talked,

1473
01:41:31,520 --> 01:41:36,199
we talked about the spelling and changing narratives, and you.

1474
01:41:36,159 --> 01:41:39,319
Speaker 3: Know, the narrative of this is.

1475
01:41:41,039 --> 01:41:46,560
Speaker 1: Wrong. The narrative that people believe of the German bomb

1476
01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:51,119
program is wrong. So I don't see how anybody can

1477
01:41:52,439 --> 01:41:54,840
if one of the goals, if one of the goals

1478
01:41:54,960 --> 01:42:01,279
is to open people's eyes to World War two and

1479
01:42:01,359 --> 01:42:04,720
exactly what it was, I think there's no more important

1480
01:42:05,079 --> 01:42:12,479
there's no more important, uh subject, than a potential you

1481
01:42:12,479 --> 01:42:16,399
know bomb that you know, they oh, he would.

1482
01:42:16,199 --> 01:42:21,399
Speaker 2: Have just dropped everywhere. No, I mean and and people too,

1483
01:42:21,439 --> 01:42:23,439
like I said, the important you know, I spent a

1484
01:42:23,439 --> 01:42:27,479
lot of time with game theory and like formal logic.

1485
01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:30,319
I mean it's like my background like educationally, but also

1486
01:42:30,359 --> 01:42:35,680
it uh, you know, the Cold War was so I

1487
01:42:35,680 --> 01:42:38,560
mean nuclear weapon Like the Cold War can only understood

1488
01:42:39,000 --> 01:42:41,880
within the context of the nuclear paradigm, you know, like

1489
01:42:41,960 --> 01:42:45,600
it was just it literally defined every aspect of it,

1490
01:42:45,720 --> 01:42:50,600
like military, political, philosophical, Like people can't get their minds

1491
01:42:50,640 --> 01:42:53,359
around really the idea that you know, in a different

1492
01:42:53,359 --> 01:42:58,960
strategic paradigm, let alone one in the twentieth century that

1493
01:42:59,119 --> 01:43:02,159
you know, nuclear weapons could have not been you know,

1494
01:43:02,199 --> 01:43:04,680
the kind of trump card the or like the key

1495
01:43:04,760 --> 01:43:08,840
to victory that oviated you know, all like lesser killing

1496
01:43:08,880 --> 01:43:11,760
technologies you know, and like I cannonize that enough. It's

1497
01:43:11,760 --> 01:43:15,319
like again like even people, I'm not any people have

1498
01:43:15,399 --> 01:43:18,199
got their own conceptual prejudices one or the other about

1499
01:43:18,199 --> 01:43:20,159
the Third Reich, Like it's not put that out of

1500
01:43:20,159 --> 01:43:24,720
your mind totally. Think it's really strategic terms about irrationality

1501
01:43:24,840 --> 01:43:27,319
of what Berlin had to accomplish in order to realize

1502
01:43:27,319 --> 01:43:29,279
it's war aims. And win the war. Like again, how

1503
01:43:29,279 --> 01:43:32,239
would an atomic bomb facilitate that? I mean, on the

1504
01:43:32,239 --> 01:43:36,239
one hand, like, yeah, it's better always to have like

1505
01:43:36,279 --> 01:43:41,159
potential firepower on hand. That's devastating, But it's not okay,

1506
01:43:41,279 --> 01:43:47,000
I mean, it's it's you know, it's not. Uh, it's

1507
01:43:47,039 --> 01:43:50,479
it's not like like the utility of these weapons is

1508
01:43:50,520 --> 01:43:55,560
not there's not a spectrum, a wide spectrum utility to them,

1509
01:43:55,880 --> 01:44:00,520
you know it. And I think people forget that, you know,

1510
01:44:00,560 --> 01:44:04,680
even people who are basically informed about things and you know,

1511
01:44:04,760 --> 01:44:09,600
conceptually literate. But yeah, all right, I'm rambling. Man. I won't,

1512
01:44:09,680 --> 01:44:12,880
I won't. I won't keep you any longer. But thanks

1513
01:44:12,920 --> 01:44:15,239
so much for hosting me. Man, I owe you a

1514
01:44:15,279 --> 01:44:18,880
lot with friends, and I appreciate being able to cover

1515
01:44:18,920 --> 01:44:22,239
these things. But I really really appreciate the chance to

1516
01:44:22,359 --> 01:44:24,920
appear on your program. Like believe that.

1517
01:44:25,359 --> 01:44:27,359
Speaker 3: I'm very always You're always welcome.

1518
01:44:27,359 --> 01:44:29,359
Speaker 1: All you have to do is contact me with the subject.

1519
01:44:29,359 --> 01:44:30,439
Speaker 3: Then you know, we'll do it.

1520
01:44:30,479 --> 01:44:33,399
Speaker 1: But before we do that, hit up some plugs and

1521
01:44:33,560 --> 01:44:34,800
uh we'll get out of here.

1522
01:44:35,159 --> 01:44:40,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, legit. I'm always on substack and in September, I'll

1523
01:44:40,520 --> 01:44:43,880
be dropping season two of the podcast in the interim.

1524
01:44:44,159 --> 01:44:46,720
I'll keep dropping like one off content that you can

1525
01:44:46,800 --> 01:44:50,039
listen to, like the Nego Cloud interview and other stuff.

1526
01:44:50,640 --> 01:44:55,279
I promise. But in September, season two will drop, and

1527
01:44:55,520 --> 01:44:59,319
when it does, all all all other content, all other

1528
01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:05,600
podcas As content will be free. It's real Thomas seven

1529
01:45:05,680 --> 01:45:09,560
seven seven dot subsect dot com. Uh. You can find

1530
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:13,479
me on the app formally known as Twitter. It's real

1531
01:45:14,159 --> 01:45:18,319
R capital R E A L underscore number seven h

1532
01:45:18,359 --> 01:45:23,640
O M A S seven seven seven. I'm on Telegram.

1533
01:45:23,760 --> 01:45:26,640
It's at Thomas Graham number seven h O M A

1534
01:45:26,680 --> 01:45:32,520
S seven seven seven Graham. Or no, it's Thomas. Yeah, no,

1535
01:45:32,680 --> 01:45:35,479
it's that's right. That's right. I'm not going c isle.

1536
01:45:35,520 --> 01:45:41,640
I'm just tired. And that's uh. The YouTube channel, there's

1537
01:45:41,680 --> 01:45:45,279
nothing there yet except a couple one off things, you know,

1538
01:45:45,359 --> 01:45:47,880
like an intro and you know, some stuff that I've

1539
01:45:47,880 --> 01:45:52,359
recorded with friends, like my dear friend Carrie. On my

1540
01:45:52,479 --> 01:45:59,880
YouTube channel, it's Thomas t V. That's uh. When I

1541
01:45:59,920 --> 01:46:01,319
go to Utah in a couple of weeks, it's to

1542
01:46:01,359 --> 01:46:04,760
begin shooting dedicated content for Thomas TV. So I'm excited

1543
01:46:04,760 --> 01:46:08,359
about that. You know, we're doing a lot more with

1544
01:46:08,439 --> 01:46:12,319
the brand, not just like sexing up the production values,

1545
01:46:12,880 --> 01:46:16,000
which I owe to my dear friend Rake and his team,

1546
01:46:16,119 --> 01:46:17,720
like literally, like I could not do any of this

1547
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:19,479
stuff without them. They're the guys who do all like

1548
01:46:19,479 --> 01:46:22,239
the editing and stuff and make things like presentable, like

1549
01:46:22,359 --> 01:46:25,279
legit I'd be if it was just me, Like i'd

1550
01:46:25,319 --> 01:46:27,600
be like some like a hobo, like looking like he

1551
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:30,520
was on Public Access and like nineteen eighty or something like,

1552
01:46:30,920 --> 01:46:33,479
I'd be like something from like yeah, it'd be like

1553
01:46:33,520 --> 01:46:36,680
something from like Public Access and like some alternate dimension

1554
01:46:36,760 --> 01:46:42,439
of shit. But uh, some keep that in mind that

1555
01:46:42,800 --> 01:46:48,000
they're the guys who really are owed props for anything

1556
01:46:48,039 --> 01:46:51,720
I'd do in this regard. But yeah, that's about where

1557
01:46:51,720 --> 01:46:54,960
we're at. I uh, I'm hoping to be able to

1558
01:46:55,039 --> 01:47:03,840
drop steel Storm three my early spring Nuremberg by summer,

1559
01:47:04,159 --> 01:47:05,840
and that's all I got for right.

1560
01:47:05,760 --> 01:47:10,479
Speaker 3: Now until part three. Thank you, Thomas, Yeah, thank you for.

1561
01:47:12,119 --> 01:47:14,880
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanana Show.

1562
01:47:15,960 --> 01:47:19,119
I'm here with Thomas. How are you doing, Thomas, I'm

1563
01:47:19,119 --> 01:47:19,880
doing very well.

1564
01:47:20,039 --> 01:47:23,760
Speaker 2: Thanks for hosting me again. I hope, I hope people

1565
01:47:23,800 --> 01:47:26,600
have been getting something out of this series. You know.

1566
01:47:26,680 --> 01:47:32,039
I'm I'm a I'm a historical writer, and I know

1567
01:47:32,119 --> 01:47:37,039
something about political theory, in the law and in formal logic,

1568
01:47:37,079 --> 01:47:40,479
but I'm not I'm not a scientist at all. I'm

1569
01:47:40,520 --> 01:47:43,000
not even like a layman who you know is is

1570
01:47:43,159 --> 01:47:46,239
just highly competent in science or something. So I I

1571
01:47:46,239 --> 01:47:48,560
hope I'm not embarrassing myself in the way I explain

1572
01:47:48,640 --> 01:47:52,000
some of these things. But I've gotten feedback. Like a

1573
01:47:52,039 --> 01:47:54,760
friend of ours who's a German dude who also has

1574
01:47:54,760 --> 01:47:56,800
a degree in physics, like told me that, like He's like, yeah,

1575
01:47:56,800 --> 01:47:58,520
if I'm proud of you for like not totally fucking

1576
01:47:58,520 --> 01:48:03,119
this up. That made me feel kind of good. Like

1577
01:48:03,640 --> 01:48:06,039
our German friends as well as like our physicist friends

1578
01:48:06,159 --> 01:48:11,359
generally don't pull any punches in that regard. So but today,

1579
01:48:12,000 --> 01:48:13,760
I mean, there's just a lot here. Okay, I mean,

1580
01:48:14,720 --> 01:48:19,600
but I think we'll maybe go one more episode just

1581
01:48:19,680 --> 01:48:22,800
as a you know, after this one. It's kind of

1582
01:48:22,800 --> 01:48:28,399
a bookend, and maybe field questions. But I'll explain what

1583
01:48:28,479 --> 01:48:33,920
I mean with the statement I'm about to issue forth

1584
01:48:35,359 --> 01:48:37,520
as we get into the meat of today's episode. But

1585
01:48:38,239 --> 01:48:41,439
you know, the German the German atomic bomb program such

1586
01:48:41,479 --> 01:48:43,439
that it such that there could even be said to

1587
01:48:43,520 --> 01:48:47,359
be one that existed. It was basically strangling Utero when

1588
01:48:47,399 --> 01:48:49,520
when the Vermacht was like stopping his tracks at the

1589
01:48:49,600 --> 01:48:52,199
gates of Moscow. Okay, I'll get into what I mean

1590
01:48:52,239 --> 01:48:59,359
by that as we move along. Okay, if nothing else,

1591
01:48:59,439 --> 01:49:03,800
you know, military exigencies and and and the long emergency

1592
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:06,760
of of a of a long war, a prolonged war

1593
01:49:06,920 --> 01:49:11,840
which Germany cannot afford to wage, may rendered any any

1594
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:16,600
kind of German version of Manhattan Project, you know, not feasible,

1595
01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:21,560
even if it was strategically sound as regards you know,

1596
01:49:21,720 --> 01:49:25,239
its impetus, you know what, it would it even resolve

1597
01:49:26,199 --> 01:49:32,319
Germany's military quagmire emergent military quagmire. But there's a lot

1598
01:49:32,720 --> 01:49:37,039
in between, you know, nineteen thirty nine and December nineteen

1599
01:49:37,039 --> 01:49:42,239
forty one. They still needs to be addressed. And the

1600
01:49:42,279 --> 01:49:47,039
person at Heisenberg features very prominently here. Okay, for those

1601
01:49:47,079 --> 01:49:50,760
who know, Heisenberg was not an experimental physicist. He was

1602
01:49:50,760 --> 01:49:54,520
a very much a theoretical physicist and frankly something of

1603
01:49:54,560 --> 01:50:00,359
a philosopher with theological interests. You know, he was not

1604
01:50:01,840 --> 01:50:04,560
he was not really the counterpart to Oppenheimer or something

1605
01:50:05,000 --> 01:50:06,239
you know, and I say that like in the most

1606
01:50:06,239 --> 01:50:08,800
praising terms. I think a guy like both Gang Smith

1607
01:50:08,920 --> 01:50:12,880
is kind of very much a descendant, the spiritual descendant

1608
01:50:13,640 --> 01:50:17,680
of Heisenberg. So the fact that Heisenberg came to be

1609
01:50:18,399 --> 01:50:23,800
you know what kind of helm the virus house research

1610
01:50:24,199 --> 01:50:27,439
and all attendant projects. I mean that tells you something too,

1611
01:50:27,640 --> 01:50:31,039
you know. I mean it's some and I'll expand upon

1612
01:50:31,119 --> 01:50:38,199
that with discrete facts and testimony, but that's something you

1613
01:50:38,399 --> 01:50:40,199
need to keep in mind. You know. It's just there's

1614
01:50:40,239 --> 01:50:45,720
a lot of connecting the peribial dots and the absence

1615
01:50:46,039 --> 01:50:50,960
of direct testimony or concrete evidence to point to in

1616
01:50:51,079 --> 01:50:54,039
order to you know, paint a picture of what this

1617
01:50:55,159 --> 01:50:58,560
of what this endeavor was, and you know what gave

1618
01:50:58,680 --> 01:51:04,399
rise to it and how it was not what was claimed,

1619
01:51:04,720 --> 01:51:06,920
but you know to what degree? To what? To what

1620
01:51:07,000 --> 01:51:10,680
degree it was? Uh, the people who claimed the German

1621
01:51:10,760 --> 01:51:13,960
atomic bond program was was was well underway and a

1622
01:51:14,000 --> 01:51:19,039
dedicated capacity. The degree to which that was propaganda deliberately

1623
01:51:19,079 --> 01:51:26,239
cultivated by interested parties contra. You know, people actually believing

1624
01:51:26,279 --> 01:51:28,079
this was the case owing to the not just the

1625
01:51:28,119 --> 01:51:30,760
fog of war, but you know, the kind of opaque

1626
01:51:30,840 --> 01:51:33,439
nature of of what was then you know, the new science,

1627
01:51:34,239 --> 01:51:36,920
you know, and and everything else. It's hard to say.

1628
01:51:37,119 --> 01:51:38,880
I think it depends on who we were talking about,

1629
01:51:39,239 --> 01:51:42,319
but we'll get into that too, particularly the views of

1630
01:51:42,359 --> 01:51:47,960
people like Stimson versus you know, those in you know,

1631
01:51:48,239 --> 01:51:50,079
I mean Stimpson was an outlier in the New Deal

1632
01:51:50,119 --> 01:51:52,680
administration anyway, but you know, he the view of him

1633
01:51:52,800 --> 01:52:00,439
versus you know people, uh who who people in the

1634
01:52:00,439 --> 01:52:06,520
administration who are most receptive to Einstein and Sax's claim.

1635
01:52:06,720 --> 01:52:08,640
I mean, there's a there was a there's a difference

1636
01:52:08,680 --> 01:52:15,000
in inconceptual horizon there. But I want to get into

1637
01:52:16,880 --> 01:52:20,119
we left off last time with the April twenty ninth,

1638
01:52:21,399 --> 01:52:24,119
I mean thirty nine conference, and as as we as

1639
01:52:24,119 --> 01:52:29,119
we got into, uh the focus of that discussion really

1640
01:52:29,319 --> 01:52:33,479
was the feasibility of a of a quote uranium engine,

1641
01:52:33,640 --> 01:52:38,600
you know, like we said such that these such such

1642
01:52:38,600 --> 01:52:44,439
that these discussions among this coterie that the War Office

1643
01:52:44,479 --> 01:52:48,760
had corralled had had it had a focus, and later

1644
01:52:48,880 --> 01:52:55,039
like such that there such that their experimental activities, you know,

1645
01:52:55,119 --> 01:52:59,439
had a discrete focus. It It was it was really

1646
01:52:59,479 --> 01:53:03,319
towards well we conceptually what we'd consider a nuclear reactor

1647
01:53:03,840 --> 01:53:09,560
and that becomes relevant, that becomes independently relevant as a

1648
01:53:09,560 --> 01:53:13,399
as time went on. We really relating to the weaponization

1649
01:53:13,520 --> 01:53:17,760
of of of of uranium two thirty five as we'll see,

1650
01:53:17,960 --> 01:53:26,239
but a few days prior, a guy named Neils Borr,

1651
01:53:27,279 --> 01:53:29,680
who was a Dane, but he was in some way

1652
01:53:29,760 --> 01:53:32,479
he had like an outsized impact on German physics, okay,

1653
01:53:32,520 --> 01:53:34,600
and he was very much like a mentor of Heisenberg

1654
01:53:34,600 --> 01:53:41,239
among other among other luminaries. He and uh a guy

1655
01:53:41,319 --> 01:53:44,600
named J. E. Wheeler, they published the American Physical Review,

1656
01:53:45,319 --> 01:53:47,600
which was read pretty much by everybody in the Western

1657
01:53:47,640 --> 01:53:51,319
world who's it all involved in physics even throughout the war,

1658
01:53:51,640 --> 01:53:58,880
you know, this endured it uh it uh it reiterated

1659
01:53:59,159 --> 01:54:02,680
the idea that uranium two thirty five had weapons potential.

1660
01:54:03,479 --> 01:54:07,920
You know, so this was even independent of any New

1661
01:54:07,920 --> 01:54:12,960
Deal propaganda, independent of any you know kind of anxieties

1662
01:54:13,239 --> 01:54:17,520
uh well founded or not within the British intelligence establishment,

1663
01:54:18,319 --> 01:54:20,800
like there were just like worldwide, there were people who

1664
01:54:20,800 --> 01:54:24,439
were arguably you know, like explendidly disinterested in the political

1665
01:54:24,479 --> 01:54:28,600
climate and the burgaining you know, battle lines who were

1666
01:54:28,640 --> 01:54:30,720
playing with this idea. You know, it was at least

1667
01:54:30,720 --> 01:54:35,439
on their radar. Okay, So the climate, the intellectual climate

1668
01:54:35,479 --> 01:54:38,840
into which everybody was sort of thrust who was taking

1669
01:54:38,840 --> 01:54:46,359
on a role in experimental physics and in any combatant

1670
01:54:46,399 --> 01:54:49,239
nation actual or potential you know, there was there was

1671
01:54:49,439 --> 01:54:52,159
there was this kind of subtext of you know, military

1672
01:54:52,159 --> 01:54:56,000
potentially a direct military potential here. Okay, So I mean

1673
01:54:56,079 --> 01:54:59,199
to be fair, like that's got to uh, that's got

1674
01:54:59,199 --> 01:55:04,359
to be accounted for Ada Han, who you know, who

1675
01:55:04,560 --> 01:55:08,199
was an experimental physicist and who did have trumendous clout,

1676
01:55:08,600 --> 01:55:11,399
uh just just just across the board, like not just

1677
01:55:11,520 --> 01:55:17,439
but it's particularly within the uh, within the committee in

1678
01:55:17,640 --> 01:55:21,960
uh Berlin. Uh. He said that any project essentially, you know,

1679
01:55:22,039 --> 01:55:28,920
try and cultivate uranium two thirty five, it it'd be

1680
01:55:29,000 --> 01:55:33,079
it'd be astronomically expensive anyway to present you know, just

1681
01:55:33,119 --> 01:55:44,840
insoluble difficulties. Professor Bagey, who was uh a pre eminent

1682
01:55:44,920 --> 01:55:47,119
researcher and he was kind of the top researcher who

1683
01:55:47,119 --> 01:55:49,439
was attached to Heisenberg in a direct capacity, like he

1684
01:55:49,520 --> 01:55:53,279
was literally his protege. He said, well, let's call it

1685
01:55:53,359 --> 01:55:57,680
Heisenberg himself. And you know, if if this is possible

1686
01:55:57,760 --> 01:56:00,399
or if this is just you know, a pipe dream,

1687
01:56:00,439 --> 01:56:02,840
not even the development of a bomb. Isn't that It's

1688
01:56:02,880 --> 01:56:06,119
not that's not the question on the table, just you know, uh,

1689
01:56:06,840 --> 01:56:10,640
the uh the you know, the but the the extraction

1690
01:56:10,800 --> 01:56:15,359
of light uranium isotope in appreciable quantities, you know, like

1691
01:56:15,399 --> 01:56:19,119
he if if this is possible and if it's feasible,

1692
01:56:19,680 --> 01:56:23,359
you know, uh within you know our present means you know,

1693
01:56:23,439 --> 01:56:26,560
he'd be the man who could uh who could you know,

1694
01:56:26,600 --> 01:56:33,520
sort of shed light on this. Now, heisenbergola universally respected.

1695
01:56:33,960 --> 01:56:37,880
Like again, there was a basic element of disdain for

1696
01:56:37,960 --> 01:56:46,399
theoretical physics among uh many of these experimental physicists, and

1697
01:56:46,439 --> 01:56:50,199
that very much that that verific of a parent when

1698
01:56:50,199 --> 01:56:54,640
Heisenberg kind of joined this, join this this this this

1699
01:56:54,720 --> 01:56:56,920
quorum not a qual I mean, it was anything but

1700
01:56:56,960 --> 01:57:02,119
a quorum as a coterie, you know. In that Uh,

1701
01:57:02,520 --> 01:57:05,399
there was a lot of there's there's a lot of

1702
01:57:06,079 --> 01:57:08,600
there's a lot of contrarianism for his own sake, uh,

1703
01:57:08,840 --> 01:57:11,319
kind of thrown up in these discussions, which I think

1704
01:57:11,399 --> 01:57:13,760
David Irving in his book makes that point. And he

1705
01:57:13,800 --> 01:57:16,039
had opportunity to you know, speak to some of the

1706
01:57:16,079 --> 01:57:19,520
men who actually were in attendance at these meetings, at

1707
01:57:19,600 --> 01:57:25,279
least in like a more than oblique capacity. The UH,

1708
01:57:25,720 --> 01:57:28,399
well was finally agreed upon, was basically that if there

1709
01:57:28,439 --> 01:57:33,199
was any if there was if there's any slight the

1710
01:57:33,439 --> 01:57:37,960
official statement what was decided, like the minutes of of

1711
01:57:38,680 --> 01:57:41,000
these kinds of like the collected minutes of these these

1712
01:57:41,039 --> 01:57:45,319
debates discussions was UH what Professor Geiger said, if there

1713
01:57:45,359 --> 01:57:47,399
was any if there was even the slightest chance of

1714
01:57:47,479 --> 01:57:51,600
liberating energy from the atomic nucleus, it was, you know,

1715
01:57:51,800 --> 01:57:53,600
in any of these experiments, that it had to be

1716
01:57:53,640 --> 01:57:59,319
followed up. Okay, the UH it was recommended that General Becker,

1717
01:57:59,680 --> 01:58:04,840
you know, the the Ornaments Department chief, UH, that that

1718
01:58:05,000 --> 01:58:09,640
dedicated to quote Nuclear Physics Research Group. The organized under

1719
01:58:09,680 --> 01:58:14,479
these auspices, and you know, like we talked about last time,

1720
01:58:14,760 --> 01:58:20,399
like ESA had an amicable relationship already with Becker and

1721
01:58:20,600 --> 01:58:22,640
UH so so it was it was it was. It

1722
01:58:22,680 --> 01:58:26,920
was made so for security reasons, and this too, I

1723
01:58:26,920 --> 01:58:32,479
think clouded perception of the Allies, at least in those

1724
01:58:32,520 --> 01:58:38,760
who were within military intelligence. For security reasons. The project

1725
01:58:38,920 --> 01:58:46,319
UH the language employed UH in documents relating to it,

1726
01:58:46,319 --> 01:58:51,000
it was all characterized as as research for the creation

1727
01:58:51,079 --> 01:58:56,520
of potential fuel sources for rocket propulsion. Okay, Like the

1728
01:58:56,560 --> 01:59:01,159
actual Reich rocket program was, it became, it came into

1729
01:59:01,159 --> 01:59:04,159
the auspices of of the s S eventually, you know.

1730
01:59:04,199 --> 01:59:06,640
That's why von Braun like actually was in was in

1731
01:59:07,239 --> 01:59:09,159
was in uniform in the s S, you know, like

1732
01:59:09,199 --> 01:59:13,479
he was, you know, you like, it was formally incorporated

1733
01:59:13,520 --> 01:59:19,239
into the organization and in a very top down way.

1734
01:59:21,720 --> 01:59:24,720
You know, the rocket program is an example of how

1735
01:59:25,279 --> 01:59:27,600
of everything that you know, the that that that the

1736
01:59:27,680 --> 01:59:32,359
virus house program wasn't you know. And I also believe

1737
01:59:33,840 --> 01:59:41,960
owing to the intrinsically uh military language of uh you know,

1738
01:59:42,039 --> 01:59:45,920
this kind of deliberate mischaracterization of the program as a

1739
01:59:46,000 --> 01:59:49,319
rocket program, I think that may have convinced people who

1740
01:59:49,399 --> 01:59:52,279
came across kind of scraps and and statements out of

1741
01:59:52,319 --> 01:59:54,800
the ear, you know, who were spying on the Third Reich.

1742
01:59:55,439 --> 01:59:59,720
I I think they just made they they axiomatically determined, like,

1743
02:00:00,079 --> 02:00:02,760
you know, well, this is this is a direct this

1744
02:00:02,840 --> 02:00:07,239
is a this is a direct military endeavor, you know,

1745
02:00:09,399 --> 02:00:15,119
and uh that that's not unreasonable, It's not unreasonable conclusion

1746
02:00:15,159 --> 02:00:18,800
to draw, especially if one understood how the German General

1747
02:00:18,840 --> 02:00:21,000
staff system work and kind of what the interplay was

1748
02:00:21,079 --> 02:00:25,279
between you know, technological research within what was nominally the

1749
02:00:25,279 --> 02:00:29,960
private sector, and you know, it's it's the ability of uh,

1750
02:00:30,279 --> 02:00:35,159
the military to capitalize on on these on these developments,

1751
02:00:35,760 --> 02:00:39,039
you know. But it's I think that's uh, I think

1752
02:00:39,039 --> 02:00:42,399
that's interesting. And it's also, uh it goes too like

1753
02:00:42,399 --> 02:00:45,560
we're priorities were you know, like kind of the people,

1754
02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:47,800
uh people in the Wehrmacht kind of like they viewed

1755
02:00:47,840 --> 02:00:51,239
as like the zenith kind of of of of vartech,

1756
02:00:52,600 --> 02:00:55,600
you know, was uh what was aerospace stuff. You know,

1757
02:00:55,640 --> 02:00:58,199
it's like with with with with rocketry obviously kind of

1758
02:00:58,199 --> 02:01:03,800
being the the absolute diseenth of of that. But the

1759
02:01:04,000 --> 02:01:13,039
uh it uh. What also happened was on a on

1760
02:01:13,039 --> 02:01:19,119
on September sixteenth, for the the Kurt Diebner, who he

1761
02:01:19,159 --> 02:01:23,920
talked about last time. He was appointed to lead at

1762
02:01:24,000 --> 02:01:27,159
least nominally in the Nuclear Physics Research Group under Ordnance

1763
02:01:27,199 --> 02:01:35,680
Department auspices. Doctor Bagge, who began keeping a diary for

1764
02:01:35,720 --> 02:01:37,119
the first time in his life, because I mean, I

1765
02:01:37,199 --> 02:01:40,640
think he realized, I'm sure he realized that whatever the

1766
02:01:40,680 --> 02:01:44,479
outcome of these endeavors, it was something you know, he

1767
02:01:44,560 --> 02:01:48,239
was participating in scientific history. You know as he was

1768
02:01:48,279 --> 02:01:53,920
being made. But on the UH he notes that on

1769
02:01:53,960 --> 02:02:00,319
September sixteenth, nineteen thirty nine, Diebner summoned him personally UH

1770
02:02:00,880 --> 02:02:04,960
to report the Army Ordnance Department. He writes, participating the

1771
02:02:05,279 --> 02:02:09,039
quote conference about an important matter, then returned to Leipzig.

1772
02:02:11,479 --> 02:02:15,800
This was the last from this point on the reason

1773
02:02:15,840 --> 02:02:21,680
why he uses that UH, that deliberately minimalist language. Any

1774
02:02:21,720 --> 02:02:24,880
reference to the possibilities of uranium for any any of

1775
02:02:25,000 --> 02:02:31,720
any application, reactors, UH, super bombs, anything was considered was

1776
02:02:31,720 --> 02:02:35,000
classified as a state secret, okay, And all all references

1777
02:02:35,000 --> 02:02:38,680
the possibilities of uranium and energy derived from uranium was

1778
02:02:38,680 --> 02:02:43,880
was actively suppressed, okay the first instance. And again this

1779
02:02:43,960 --> 02:02:49,720
goes to show you the kind of frosty relationship between

1780
02:02:50,199 --> 02:02:52,600
the private sector and the army in this regard, you know,

1781
02:02:52,880 --> 02:02:57,079
kind of splendidly contrary the situation is existed between the

1782
02:02:57,119 --> 02:03:03,720
aviation industry and UH, the military establishment, which was positively incestuous.

1783
02:03:04,800 --> 02:03:09,000
A Semens research chemist, you know, a Semen research physicists.

1784
02:03:09,000 --> 02:03:13,000
You know. Semens was a huge conglomerate, you know, like

1785
02:03:13,079 --> 02:03:17,119
they uh, they're basically insinuated everything on the cutting edge

1786
02:03:17,119 --> 02:03:21,319
of of UH of applied sciences, you know, as related

1787
02:03:21,359 --> 02:03:26,479
to industry and everything else. The UH he submitted in

1788
02:03:26,479 --> 02:03:31,279
an article UH to the main like German news agency.

1789
02:03:32,880 --> 02:03:37,399
It contained a detailed description of UH, you know, like

1790
02:03:37,439 --> 02:03:39,960
a kind of like the atomic science of the day,

1791
02:03:40,199 --> 02:03:42,840
you know, and it's it's supposed, you know, like marvelous

1792
02:03:42,880 --> 02:03:49,199
potential for purposes civilian and military. And it refers specifically

1793
02:03:49,199 --> 02:03:54,079
of the power contained in the uranium nucleus. And it said, quote,

1794
02:03:54,680 --> 02:03:57,720
it potentially contained enough to blast the ruins of a

1795
02:03:57,720 --> 02:04:00,840
giant city up into the stratosphere. What terrific powers of

1796
02:04:00,880 --> 02:04:03,359
annihilation and erfs were have It could fight an enemy

1797
02:04:03,359 --> 02:04:08,600
with bombs like these end quote. And the writer called

1798
02:04:08,960 --> 02:04:13,359
UH and knowing certain terms or increased experiments UH with

1799
02:04:13,479 --> 02:04:20,680
masses of uranium, which again the Reich had access to

1800
02:04:20,680 --> 02:04:27,159
in Czechoslovakia. There were uranium reserves in Portugal too, and

1801
02:04:28,119 --> 02:04:31,119
later on late late, very late in the war, even

1802
02:04:32,600 --> 02:04:36,800
the British work convinced that this played into some of

1803
02:04:36,800 --> 02:04:38,680
the kind of you know, the reasons why like in

1804
02:04:38,720 --> 02:04:43,720
their view, UH, the fear sort of treated UH Franco

1805
02:04:43,760 --> 02:04:46,840
with kid gloves. The majority of these the majority of

1806
02:04:46,880 --> 02:04:51,479
these resources were in Portugal. But obviously you know it

1807
02:04:51,479 --> 02:04:55,680
it uh that that the key to the uh to

1808
02:04:55,800 --> 02:04:58,680
the peninsula was Ibran peninsula, Spain. But that's something of

1809
02:04:58,680 --> 02:05:06,840
a tangent. But the uh, the this this, this article

1810
02:05:06,880 --> 02:05:10,239
was totally suppressed, and UH the author was warned like

1811
02:05:10,600 --> 02:05:17,199
nothing of this nature can appear in print. When uh

1812
02:05:17,680 --> 02:05:23,079
there was a papers on general atomic research were allowed,

1813
02:05:24,159 --> 02:05:30,119
including uh directly related to you know, experience involving uranium

1814
02:05:31,439 --> 02:05:36,680
and uh including the light isotope, but uh, no direct

1815
02:05:36,720 --> 02:05:39,960
mention of their context was to be made, and certainly

1816
02:05:40,000 --> 02:05:44,000
not any even speculative suggestion about you know, their employment

1817
02:05:44,079 --> 02:05:47,479
and weapons programs. Now we can look at that in

1818
02:05:47,520 --> 02:05:49,760
a number of ways, you know, like it's like we

1819
02:05:49,840 --> 02:05:57,119
talked about before, and I think you raised when you're

1820
02:05:57,119 --> 02:06:01,079
looking ahead. I mean, the Germans were actively at war

1821
02:06:01,119 --> 02:06:03,239
by this point. This was the you know, the two

1822
02:06:03,239 --> 02:06:07,439
weeks prior the United Kingdom in France and declared law

1823
02:06:07,520 --> 02:06:12,600
in Germany. But even at even at nominal peace, you know,

1824
02:06:12,640 --> 02:06:17,720
in a strategic landscape such that Germany was situated. You know,

1825
02:06:17,760 --> 02:06:21,039
the way, you've got to be careful with what you

1826
02:06:21,079 --> 02:06:25,399
introduced into the stream of information. You gotta be careful

1827
02:06:25,600 --> 02:06:31,760
about the disinformation you insinuate, and probably it was in

1828
02:06:31,800 --> 02:06:36,159
the minds of plenty of people that the last thing

1829
02:06:36,239 --> 02:06:40,479
that the right and needed was uh, you know, the

1830
02:06:40,520 --> 02:06:42,960
new dealers in the British being able to seize upon

1831
02:06:43,079 --> 02:06:46,560
statements by top scientists that Germany is working on super weapons.

1832
02:06:47,239 --> 02:06:51,000
You know, Hitler especially was very consent of this, like

1833
02:06:51,039 --> 02:06:56,800
so is Gerbels and that uh that there's there's there's

1834
02:06:56,800 --> 02:07:02,800
a very interesting give and take around both men's respective

1835
02:07:02,880 --> 02:07:07,239
ideas on the role of you know, media at war

1836
02:07:07,680 --> 02:07:11,800
and as a political apparatus. But my point is that

1837
02:07:11,880 --> 02:07:14,039
it's not it's not just like prema fashion evidence that

1838
02:07:14,119 --> 02:07:18,640
oh Berlin demanded this be suppressed. They obviously were, you know,

1839
02:07:19,159 --> 02:07:21,800
this was their goal was to you know, do exactly

1840
02:07:21,840 --> 02:07:26,680
that what was suggested in the article by the Siemens physicists.

1841
02:07:26,720 --> 02:07:29,039
You know, it's quite a bit more nuanced because I've

1842
02:07:29,199 --> 02:07:36,319
run across we're a very basic treatments of that anecdote

1843
02:07:36,600 --> 02:07:46,760
that you know, profit precisely that sine conclusion the uh. Now,

1844
02:07:48,640 --> 02:07:55,680
one of the problems faced whatever the state of applied

1845
02:07:55,720 --> 02:08:00,000
research utilizing uranium two thirty five by the German scientists

1846
02:08:00,199 --> 02:08:08,119
was you know, whether whether as a dedicated weapons program

1847
02:08:08,239 --> 02:08:12,960
or just as you know, I'm trying to identify what

1848
02:08:13,199 --> 02:08:21,520
potentiality existed utilizing these you know, these these this element

1849
02:08:21,680 --> 02:08:24,279
specifically uranium thre thirty five is an energy source like whatever,

1850
02:08:24,319 --> 02:08:30,000
whatever the whatever the ultimate goal was, there was a

1851
02:08:31,000 --> 02:08:34,199
there there's a problem with, uh, there's a problem with

1852
02:08:34,239 --> 02:08:40,600
isolating uranium two thirty five and cultivating it. Okay, and uh,

1853
02:08:41,359 --> 02:08:45,000
this is such was the you know they're from there

1854
02:08:45,199 --> 02:08:50,319
from whence emerges the concern about you know, it just

1855
02:08:50,359 --> 02:08:53,720
being a cost prohibitive affair, which makes it, you know,

1856
02:08:53,800 --> 02:09:03,479
functionally useless, particularly as a a military a military endeavor.

1857
02:09:05,439 --> 02:09:14,800
The UH September nine, the second Conference of the Nuclear

1858
02:09:14,840 --> 02:09:19,840
Physicists at the Ordnance Department was held. The subject of

1859
02:09:19,880 --> 02:09:25,479
that conference was specifically means of extracting energy from the

1860
02:09:25,560 --> 02:09:31,359
uranium nucleus, either in either controlled amounts you know, as

1861
02:09:31,399 --> 02:09:37,880
would facilitate a reactor or uranium furnace, or or in

1862
02:09:37,920 --> 02:09:46,960
the uncontrolled chain reaction reactive violence of an explosion. Okay,

1863
02:09:47,760 --> 02:09:54,199
the first, the first accounlisting the first would would involve

1864
02:09:54,279 --> 02:09:57,159
mixing the uranium with some substance caple of literally slowing

1865
02:09:57,199 --> 02:10:00,760
down the high energy fast neutron is admitted during the

1866
02:10:00,760 --> 02:10:07,600
fission process without absorbing them. For technical reasons I don't

1867
02:10:07,680 --> 02:10:11,960
quite understand. Neutrons of a certain energy band are particularly

1868
02:10:12,000 --> 02:10:18,039
prone to capture by uranium. So for them not to

1869
02:10:18,079 --> 02:10:24,399
be lost, uh, they these these these fishing neutrons had

1870
02:10:24,399 --> 02:10:27,680
to be had to be rapidly slowed down by some

1871
02:10:27,760 --> 02:10:31,399
kind of breaking substance or in science scientific language like

1872
02:10:31,479 --> 02:10:43,520
moderating elements or moderator. Okay, the uh The second uh

1873
02:10:43,920 --> 02:10:48,720
them possibility was that if if, if, if, that's gonna

1874
02:10:48,720 --> 02:10:51,279
be made to utilize this as an explosive, you know,

1875
02:10:51,399 --> 02:10:56,399
if a super bomb was in fact possible. You know.

1876
02:10:56,520 --> 02:11:00,880
The uh it was the rare I hope that was

1877
02:11:00,920 --> 02:11:03,960
needed to fish in with thermal neutrons. Okay, so how

1878
02:11:03,960 --> 02:11:05,800
do you how do you how do you get the

1879
02:11:06,000 --> 02:11:07,600
how do you get the uranium two three, five that

1880
02:11:07,640 --> 02:11:15,600
you need? You know? In the case of the first question,

1881
02:11:17,439 --> 02:11:22,039
a professor Harvik he discussed the design of the uranium

1882
02:11:22,079 --> 02:11:27,279
reactor to solve both problems. Okay. He had a colleague

1883
02:11:27,359 --> 02:11:29,760
named doctor Hans Seuss, not doctor Seuss, the guy who

1884
02:11:29,800 --> 02:11:31,199
wrote like the cat in the head, Like this guy

1885
02:11:31,279 --> 02:11:33,319
is like an actual like doctor named Seuss like take

1886
02:11:33,319 --> 02:11:35,840
from that way you will. I know, some dick is

1887
02:11:35,840 --> 02:11:38,680
gonna mention starability, sneeches or something like. It's not about that,

1888
02:11:41,159 --> 02:11:46,119
Sue said, proposed that heavy water was uh, it was

1889
02:11:46,119 --> 02:11:51,399
was to be used in the in the UH as

1890
02:11:51,479 --> 02:11:56,439
as as as as the moderating element. Okay, what is

1891
02:11:56,479 --> 02:12:01,119
heavy water. It's a form of water. Obviously, we whose

1892
02:12:01,199 --> 02:12:06,199
hydrogen atoms are all dueterium, also known as heavy hydrogen,

1893
02:12:07,039 --> 02:12:09,760
rather than the common hydrogen isotope that makes it most

1894
02:12:09,760 --> 02:12:14,439
of the hydrogen and normal water. The presence of heavy

1895
02:12:14,600 --> 02:12:18,720
of heavier hydrogen, the heavier hydrogen isotope, it gives the

1896
02:12:18,720 --> 02:12:23,279
water different nuclear properties, and the increase in mass alters

1897
02:12:23,319 --> 02:12:27,359
the uh the physical and chemical properties as relates to

1898
02:12:27,399 --> 02:12:36,319
normal water. Okay. Now, so as this research went on,

1899
02:12:36,359 --> 02:12:39,520
in other words, you know, kind of like the challenges

1900
02:12:39,640 --> 02:12:41,399
like stacked up and up and up, and as I'm

1901
02:12:41,399 --> 02:12:47,960
sure you've gleaned, basically, uh, what became clear according to

1902
02:12:47,960 --> 02:12:50,920
the path the course of German research, and America was

1903
02:12:50,960 --> 02:12:55,880
able to avoid this entirely owing to plutonium. And we'll

1904
02:12:55,880 --> 02:12:58,319
get into that briefly if there's time or if people

1905
02:12:58,359 --> 02:13:01,359
are interested. But basically, like when it came clear of

1906
02:13:01,399 --> 02:13:04,199
the second conference, what was being floated is that, well,

1907
02:13:04,239 --> 02:13:06,000
it's not a question of do we build a bomb

1908
02:13:06,039 --> 02:13:07,960
or do we build a reactor or not not even

1909
02:13:08,000 --> 02:13:10,399
dew we but like what what's the potential here? Is

1910
02:13:10,439 --> 02:13:12,079
that if you want, if you want to do anything

1911
02:13:12,359 --> 02:13:15,840
like the latter, you you have to develop the former anyway, Okay,

1912
02:13:16,000 --> 02:13:18,239
something this is just becoming like who's going to pay

1913
02:13:18,239 --> 02:13:21,880
for all this when this may not even be possible

1914
02:13:21,960 --> 02:13:26,399
and we may not even have access to the uranium

1915
02:13:26,880 --> 02:13:32,520
uranium pile reserves that we need in order to accomplish it.

1916
02:13:34,760 --> 02:13:47,920
The Heisenberg Enter Heisenberg he was commissioned specifically to investigate

1917
02:13:47,960 --> 02:13:51,560
theoretically whether a chain reaction in uranium was possible given

1918
02:13:51,600 --> 02:13:58,000
the known UH properties of of of neutron fusion and

1919
02:13:58,119 --> 02:14:08,239
uranium fission and the characteristics there. And over time, this

1920
02:14:08,279 --> 02:14:11,119
is pre nineteen forty one. After ninety forty one, things changed.

1921
02:14:11,239 --> 02:14:16,000
Reasons we'll get into that kind of became the focus

1922
02:14:16,000 --> 02:14:17,399
of such that they're gonna be said to be like

1923
02:14:17,439 --> 02:14:24,720
a dedicated focus towards a uh A directly military application. Okay.

1924
02:14:24,800 --> 02:14:28,600
I think this is when discussions corral discreetly around the

1925
02:14:28,600 --> 02:14:34,079
potential of an atomic bomb, okay, within German physics quarters

1926
02:14:34,079 --> 02:14:38,159
generally and specifically within this Ordnance department coterie of great

1927
02:14:38,159 --> 02:14:44,960
physics minds. Okay. And partly yeah, obviously because partly like

1928
02:14:45,000 --> 02:14:47,760
that's something that you know, the Wehrmacht needed to know

1929
02:14:47,840 --> 02:14:50,600
about if this was possible, you know, owing to the

1930
02:14:50,640 --> 02:14:53,800
fact that Germany was now at war. But also I mean,

1931
02:14:53,960 --> 02:14:59,319
if that's possible, if you know, basically like it's you know,

1932
02:14:59,399 --> 02:15:05,920
if if there's potential for you know, energy release at all,

1933
02:15:06,199 --> 02:15:08,520
you know, like the most kind of the most kind

1934
02:15:08,560 --> 02:15:12,600
of concrete way you know, to understand that in experimental

1935
02:15:12,680 --> 02:15:14,880
terms is to determine if you know, like an explosive

1936
02:15:14,960 --> 02:15:18,960
chain reaction can be cultivated. Okay. I think that must

1937
02:15:19,000 --> 02:15:22,159
be accounted for and based upon Heisenberg's own notes, like

1938
02:15:22,159 --> 02:15:24,600
I'm talking about like his personal like opinion work product

1939
02:15:24,600 --> 02:15:28,000
that was you know, not for anybody else's eyes. This

1940
02:15:28,119 --> 02:15:33,399
seems to be the case because he never once talks

1941
02:15:33,439 --> 02:15:35,439
about you know, I mean, first of all, there was

1942
02:15:35,479 --> 02:15:39,520
his reactions when he was in captivity to the you know,

1943
02:15:39,560 --> 02:15:42,520
to the hero seem in Nagasaki texts, but also like

1944
02:15:42,560 --> 02:15:44,800
in his own I say, opinion work products. It wasn't

1945
02:15:44,800 --> 02:15:47,239
a proper diary. You know, he never wants to write,

1946
02:15:47,279 --> 02:15:49,039
you know, some of the effect of you know, like

1947
02:15:49,560 --> 02:15:52,600
this we're we're working towards development of a bomb. I mean,

1948
02:15:52,600 --> 02:15:54,920
he writes a lot and he and he raised issues,

1949
02:15:55,039 --> 02:16:01,119
uh with with colleagues about you know, the reality of

1950
02:16:01,119 --> 02:16:05,600
of of this research for various you know, in various capacities.

1951
02:16:05,640 --> 02:16:10,199
But number once does want to get the idea that

1952
02:16:10,520 --> 02:16:13,279
you know, he saw himself as insinuated into some sort

1953
02:16:13,319 --> 02:16:20,600
of like German Manhattan project. The uh around the same time, uh,

1954
02:16:21,119 --> 02:16:25,840
the War Office somewhat abruptly, uh, they took over the

1955
02:16:25,840 --> 02:16:28,600
they took over the building on the camps of the

1956
02:16:28,640 --> 02:16:34,440
Kaiservillehelm Institute of Physics. Okay, because it had it had

1957
02:16:34,440 --> 02:16:39,799
the best equipment for for for applied atomic research, probably

1958
02:16:40,680 --> 02:16:46,399
probably in Europe, definitely within Germany. All uh, all scientists

1959
02:16:46,440 --> 02:16:52,840
participating in you know, the uh, the War Office project,

1960
02:16:53,280 --> 02:16:56,799
uh were they they were they were asked to transfer

1961
02:16:56,840 --> 02:17:00,000
this one central institute, you know, so that like they

1962
02:17:00,000 --> 02:17:03,799
basically like all hands to be on deck under one roof.

1963
02:17:05,799 --> 02:17:08,600
This is this is absolutely necessary, Okay, especially we're talking

1964
02:17:08,600 --> 02:17:15,719
about this kind of advanced research. The problem is these

1965
02:17:15,760 --> 02:17:19,600
men all had uh you know, these weren't military men

1966
02:17:19,680 --> 02:17:23,280
to a man, they were ah, you know, civilian researchers.

1967
02:17:24,000 --> 02:17:28,520
They had egos. Uh. They they were all, you know,

1968
02:17:28,719 --> 02:17:31,159
kind of the kingfish of the pond. They were situated

1969
02:17:31,200 --> 02:17:34,479
at in their respective institutions. But it's also you know,

1970
02:17:34,559 --> 02:17:35,959
some of these guys were young, but a lot of

1971
02:17:35,959 --> 02:17:38,840
them weren't. You know, It's like they people become very

1972
02:17:38,840 --> 02:17:41,959
attached their research, particularly men I'd have to imagine a

1973
02:17:42,040 --> 02:17:44,879
brilliant intellect. You know, they didn't want to They didn't

1974
02:17:44,879 --> 02:17:46,680
want to be part of a team. I mean, who

1975
02:17:46,680 --> 02:17:51,280
the hell does you know, like in that capacity. So

1976
02:17:51,600 --> 02:17:57,360
uh most almost most of them, uh like almost all

1977
02:17:57,360 --> 02:18:01,479
of them objected, and many of them just declined. They

1978
02:18:01,600 --> 02:18:04,120
just declined, what amount of do a direct order? Okay?

1979
02:18:04,159 --> 02:18:07,079
But it's like the cachet that these men had was,

1980
02:18:07,200 --> 02:18:11,040
you know, you cannot you can't, you can't replace nuclear physicists, okay.

1981
02:18:11,120 --> 02:18:17,879
And like it's the uh who was corralled there uh

1982
02:18:18,079 --> 02:18:22,079
at the Berlin Dalum Uh the kinds of Vellam institute

1983
02:18:23,319 --> 02:18:32,719
like Weisiker, Vitz, Bob Borman, Fisher and Heisenberg was often present.

1984
02:18:34,280 --> 02:18:37,399
So I mean there was like a core uh, there

1985
02:18:37,399 --> 02:18:39,040
there was, there was there there was a core like

1986
02:18:39,120 --> 02:18:45,920
working group that did exactly what was what was directed.

1987
02:18:46,639 --> 02:18:51,840
But it indicated a real you know, it indicated a

1988
02:18:51,879 --> 02:18:56,360
real lack of of concrete focus and kind of top

1989
02:18:56,399 --> 02:19:05,319
down discipline towards a directed goal, you know. And that's uh,

1990
02:19:05,760 --> 02:19:10,760
that's I think that's more symptomatic than causitive. I mean

1991
02:19:10,760 --> 02:19:14,639
it's not you know, it's it's not it's That's important

1992
02:19:14,639 --> 02:19:17,920
to understand too, is that, you know, when we're not

1993
02:19:17,959 --> 02:19:22,280
talking about you know, a true German atomic bomb project,

1994
02:19:22,360 --> 02:19:29,920
but that was sabotaged by outside egos and eccentricities. It's uh.

1995
02:19:30,440 --> 02:19:32,840
And I want the second key takeaway too, is that

1996
02:19:33,559 --> 02:19:35,520
there's this there's this idea that you know, there was

1997
02:19:35,559 --> 02:19:38,239
some like brain drain in Germany because like you know,

1998
02:19:38,280 --> 02:19:41,079
all the brilliant physicists were Jewish like and got chased out.

1999
02:19:41,120 --> 02:19:44,440
That's not true at all. Heisenberg probably was like the

2000
02:19:44,520 --> 02:19:47,840
leading physics mind like on this planet, you know, and uh,

2001
02:19:48,040 --> 02:19:51,319
you know Weisigerwitz, Bob is Borman. I mean, all these

2002
02:19:51,319 --> 02:19:55,360
guys like they were boggy dee neer like they they're

2003
02:19:55,360 --> 02:19:59,120
at the top of their game. And frankly, you know,

2004
02:19:59,360 --> 02:20:02,959
they weren't. None of these guys were like party men

2005
02:20:03,440 --> 02:20:06,959
and were dedicated national socialists, but they weren't about to

2006
02:20:07,000 --> 02:20:10,440
reject their father land. Whige frankly had done tremendous things

2007
02:20:10,479 --> 02:20:14,000
for them in terms of facilitating their research in all

2008
02:20:14,079 --> 02:20:19,479
kinds of ways, and you know, providing them with you know,

2009
02:20:19,559 --> 02:20:24,719
not just the material means, but the kind of social

2010
02:20:24,799 --> 02:20:28,959
capital and and and structural resources to you know, to

2011
02:20:29,040 --> 02:20:35,280
practice there there you know, there their uh, their experiments

2012
02:20:35,319 --> 02:20:37,559
and everything else. Or or in Heisenberger's case, you know,

2013
02:20:37,639 --> 02:20:42,559
like there was really probably in uh probably in France

2014
02:20:42,600 --> 02:20:45,319
and probably in in in like the Nordic countries. I mean,

2015
02:20:45,360 --> 02:20:47,479
he would have been like a luminary, but it you know,

2016
02:20:47,559 --> 02:20:53,399
he I mean Germany was Germany was uh what was

2017
02:20:53,399 --> 02:20:55,559
was was was was the center man, it was the

2018
02:20:56,879 --> 02:21:02,600
it was the actual pivot of h of scientific research

2019
02:21:02,639 --> 02:21:07,360
and endeavor in Europe. That can't be denied, you know,

2020
02:21:07,399 --> 02:21:13,280
and like the that's also uh, there was a disadvantage

2021
02:21:13,319 --> 02:21:20,879
here because uh Maut talk uh but his uh one

2022
02:21:20,959 --> 02:21:23,319
one of the you know, one of the one of

2023
02:21:23,319 --> 02:21:26,680
the researchers. He said I know in certain terms that

2024
02:21:28,319 --> 02:21:31,319
you know, he was delighted to be assigned this project

2025
02:21:31,399 --> 02:21:35,479
because you know, he could continue with atomic research and

2026
02:21:35,520 --> 02:21:38,120
his young colleagues, who we thought had great potential. He said,

2027
02:21:38,159 --> 02:21:40,440
we could protect them from getting called up to the draft.

2028
02:21:40,840 --> 02:21:42,959
You know, we could continue our scientific research in a

2029
02:21:43,000 --> 02:21:45,200
matter which we were accustomed like whether other people had

2030
02:21:45,200 --> 02:21:48,399
to tighten their belts, you know, other other young guys,

2031
02:21:48,600 --> 02:21:53,280
you know, who had a bright future and whatever career field.

2032
02:21:53,559 --> 02:21:56,639
You know, we're having to go fight, you know, for

2033
02:21:56,680 --> 02:21:59,799
the fatherland. You know. He's like, we were basically unmolested,

2034
02:22:00,399 --> 02:22:03,440
you know, So, I mean that's that's totally different, totally

2035
02:22:03,479 --> 02:22:07,159
of an idea or sensibility. That was the case with

2036
02:22:07,200 --> 02:22:10,639
the Manhattan product scientists and in the UK man like

2037
02:22:11,559 --> 02:22:15,600
there was uh the uh you know, there was like

2038
02:22:15,639 --> 02:22:19,200
we talked about, you know, Churchill had very uh he

2039
02:22:19,520 --> 02:22:21,200
in his in the and his sponsors. I mean they

2040
02:22:21,280 --> 02:22:25,399
re effectively you know, kind of kind of drown out

2041
02:22:25,639 --> 02:22:28,319
dissident voices as respect to the war effort, you know,

2042
02:22:28,440 --> 02:22:32,399
and it had becomes something of a career killer, and

2043
02:22:32,520 --> 02:22:36,079
especially in university life, which frankly, you know, was there

2044
02:22:36,159 --> 02:22:40,639
was a lot of Jewish influence there. You know, these

2045
02:22:40,680 --> 02:22:43,680
these uh, these guys in the UK or the counterparts

2046
02:22:44,200 --> 02:22:47,600
you know, to the UH to the Virus House UH

2047
02:22:47,840 --> 02:22:51,120
team as well as the Manhattan Project team. You know,

2048
02:22:51,159 --> 02:22:53,799
they they were very much, uh, they were very much

2049
02:22:53,799 --> 02:22:58,360
working in a dedicated capacity after nineteen forty one to

2050
02:22:58,479 --> 02:23:01,440
weaponize atomic energy to be turned against Germany. And they

2051
02:23:01,440 --> 02:23:03,879
had no qualms with this at all, you know. I

2052
02:23:03,879 --> 02:23:06,520
mean it wasn't even a question of qualms with the Germans.

2053
02:23:06,639 --> 02:23:08,440
This wasn't even on the radar, you know. I mean,

2054
02:23:08,440 --> 02:23:12,120
I can't eemhacize that enough. And if this was in

2055
02:23:12,120 --> 02:23:16,079
the military's mind, which I don't think it could have been,

2056
02:23:16,159 --> 02:23:19,399
because I mean they that the men who could conceptualize

2057
02:23:19,440 --> 02:23:24,000
these things, we're all you know in in academ i.

2058
02:23:24,399 --> 02:23:25,559
You know, if you if you're if the men who

2059
02:23:25,559 --> 02:23:31,399
can actually perform the experiments as required to facilitate the

2060
02:23:31,440 --> 02:23:34,520
engineering of such devices as will be coveted by the

2061
02:23:34,600 --> 02:23:36,559
arn't forces. I mean, if you can't, you can't make

2062
02:23:36,600 --> 02:23:42,040
them do that. I mean you're you're pissing into the wind. Uh. No,

2063
02:23:44,120 --> 02:23:50,319
what changed in nineteen forty one the Germans. Everything changed

2064
02:23:50,360 --> 02:23:55,280
in December, but before that, in July nineteen forty one.

2065
02:23:57,959 --> 02:24:02,280
The Ministry of Aircraft Production, which has something of an

2066
02:24:02,319 --> 02:24:07,159
outsized role in the UH. In what we can think

2067
02:24:07,200 --> 02:24:09,680
of is kind of like the Churchill Defense Establishment or

2068
02:24:09,760 --> 02:24:13,600
like you know, arms establishment, I mean for obvious reasons,

2069
02:24:13,760 --> 02:24:17,559
you know, I mean and UH, I mean the UK

2070
02:24:17,719 --> 02:24:20,280
realized early on and it hit a transition to UH,

2071
02:24:21,399 --> 02:24:24,559
a major make transition to a major air power. Otherwise,

2072
02:24:24,879 --> 02:24:26,559
you know, like the Royal Navy would only be as

2073
02:24:26,600 --> 02:24:30,319
dominant as a as A as the Royal Air Force

2074
02:24:30,479 --> 02:24:35,040
could be to defendant. So they so they so the

2075
02:24:35,079 --> 02:24:38,600
air mindustry and all of its attendant kind of appendages

2076
02:24:38,920 --> 02:24:46,000
UH developed a lot of clout. There was a special

2077
02:24:46,040 --> 02:24:53,840
committee appointed UH to research UH the UH the potential

2078
02:24:53,959 --> 02:25:00,959
of atomic energy. Okay, it can alluted that and effective

2079
02:25:01,040 --> 02:25:08,399
uranium bomb and again uranium out until UH, until American

2080
02:25:08,840 --> 02:25:11,440
research became kind of known to the world, like after

2081
02:25:11,920 --> 02:25:17,399
forty five in a complete capacity. Everybody's you know, uranium

2082
02:25:17,520 --> 02:25:20,360
was what everybody thought of when they thought of weapons potential.

2083
02:25:21,959 --> 02:25:29,559
The UH. This UH, the Aircraft Production Committee's report was

2084
02:25:29,600 --> 02:25:32,719
that about twenty five pounds of uranium two thirty five

2085
02:25:36,360 --> 02:25:39,120
the yield could be equivalent to about each inndred tons

2086
02:25:39,120 --> 02:25:44,719
of TNT and UH the committee. The committee's conclusion was

2087
02:25:44,719 --> 02:25:52,479
that Germany, having a taken steps to cultivate heavy water,

2088
02:25:55,079 --> 02:25:59,120
coupled with uh, you know, their uh, their increase in

2089
02:25:59,799 --> 02:26:03,840
my ding of uranium war within uh you know, they

2090
02:26:04,000 --> 02:26:10,000
newly that they newly gained access to in what was Czechoslovakia,

2091
02:26:12,760 --> 02:26:17,719
that it's obvious that you know, uh, even you know

2092
02:26:17,760 --> 02:26:20,200
they they're the state of Germany is and that they're

2093
02:26:20,200 --> 02:26:22,520
not they're not looking to utilize this for peaceful purposes.

2094
02:26:22,760 --> 02:26:25,760
You know. The only immediate benefit to the German Reich

2095
02:26:26,079 --> 02:26:31,159
of finding ways to release the energy contained there in

2096
02:26:31,639 --> 02:26:35,920
would be you know, in a weaponized capacity. I think

2097
02:26:35,959 --> 02:26:38,680
by this point, I think the British probably believed this.

2098
02:26:39,520 --> 02:26:41,040
I mean, who the hell knows. I mean, like we

2099
02:26:41,159 --> 02:26:49,399
talked about these guys were zealous anyway, but considering that,

2100
02:26:53,120 --> 02:26:58,120
you know, uh, there was far less known. I mean,

2101
02:26:58,159 --> 02:26:59,959
bring that some top signed is, but there's far less

2102
02:27:00,079 --> 02:27:02,280
known there than it was known in America, you know,

2103
02:27:02,479 --> 02:27:10,000
about what the kind of real world application of these

2104
02:27:10,040 --> 02:27:13,959
things would look like. I think that they probably believe,

2105
02:27:14,159 --> 02:27:16,639
like you know, anything, that the Germans were willing to

2106
02:27:16,680 --> 02:27:22,920
dedicate this kind of effort too, is UH is going

2107
02:27:23,000 --> 02:27:27,399
to be explicitly military and probably you know, some kind

2108
02:27:27,440 --> 02:27:33,719
of massive force multiplier that's misguided for a lot of reasons,

2109
02:27:34,159 --> 02:27:38,719
not ethically, if actually, but in a fog of war

2110
02:27:38,799 --> 02:27:43,959
kind of scenario with the state of science at the time,

2111
02:27:44,520 --> 02:27:49,040
that was UH, you know, available even to an expert.

2112
02:27:49,840 --> 02:27:53,399
I I I think they probably believed what they conveyed

2113
02:27:54,440 --> 02:28:01,559
the Churchill the UH. They further said that the material

2114
02:28:02,440 --> 02:28:06,879
for an atomic weapon UH at the earliest, at the

2115
02:28:06,959 --> 02:28:09,120
very earliest, could be available to Britain by the end

2116
02:28:09,120 --> 02:28:12,399
of nineteen forty three, you know. But that also, you know,

2117
02:28:12,399 --> 02:28:14,200
begs the question as to like, what would we do

2118
02:28:14,280 --> 02:28:21,479
with it and would it even work? But the UH

2119
02:28:21,959 --> 02:28:24,760
this of course led the British to UH try and

2120
02:28:24,760 --> 02:28:28,120
see if they could find out about the Uranian research

2121
02:28:28,159 --> 02:28:35,440
program through their contexts in Norway, the UH the primary

2122
02:28:35,479 --> 02:28:40,639
German heavy water facility was at Razuken, Norway. If I'm

2123
02:28:40,680 --> 02:28:46,440
butchering that, forgive me Juken, I think r j U

2124
02:28:46,520 --> 02:28:53,559
k A N. The problem is, as I think the

2125
02:28:53,600 --> 02:28:56,440
subscribers know, because we got into it in our Churchill episodes,

2126
02:28:57,120 --> 02:28:59,920
the Norwegians are not a particularly warm feelings about the British,

2127
02:29:00,000 --> 02:29:02,520
particularly when the British had intended to assault and invade

2128
02:29:02,559 --> 02:29:11,760
and occupy Norway preemptively. So throughout the summer nine forty one,

2129
02:29:13,239 --> 02:29:20,840
as UH intelligence came in from UH Trondheim to London,

2130
02:29:22,239 --> 02:29:26,600
you know from their intelligence operatives that uh, you know,

2131
02:29:26,760 --> 02:29:30,600
heavy water production that Rajukan you know, was steadily increasing.

2132
02:29:33,079 --> 02:29:42,399
The uh. The UH, the priority of UH, the priority

2133
02:29:42,440 --> 02:29:45,159
of the Prime Minister, you know, as well as everybody

2134
02:29:45,159 --> 02:29:49,200
in the intelligence into military establishment was to uh you know,

2135
02:29:49,239 --> 02:29:55,639
bring the Norwegian UH intelligence service on board and uh,

2136
02:29:55,719 --> 02:29:58,520
you know, essentially get somebody to you know, kind of

2137
02:29:58,520 --> 02:30:04,360
penetrate there was Jukan facility, or or at least uh,

2138
02:30:05,120 --> 02:30:09,559
you know, develop a a way of conveying information back

2139
02:30:09,600 --> 02:30:12,799
to London that might be usable in terms of how

2140
02:30:13,000 --> 02:30:16,959
you know, the facility could be could be compromised and

2141
02:30:17,079 --> 02:30:23,520
uh derailed from its purpose. They UH Norwegian essentially told

2142
02:30:23,559 --> 02:30:27,440
him to go to hell, you know, they they UH.

2143
02:30:28,280 --> 02:30:31,959
The official response from UH there was a guy named Welsh.

2144
02:30:32,000 --> 02:30:37,280
He was a lieutenant commander in UH British in u

2145
02:30:37,520 --> 02:30:41,479
in in UH in the British Army went on to

2146
02:30:41,520 --> 02:30:44,280
serve in the intelligence service. He'd married a Norwegian woman

2147
02:30:45,479 --> 02:30:48,079
and he was chief the Norwegian section of UH the

2148
02:30:48,120 --> 02:30:55,040
intelligence service. He UH he contacted UH when he when

2149
02:30:55,040 --> 02:30:59,440
he contacted his counterparts in Norwegian intelligence, apparently they literally

2150
02:30:59,440 --> 02:31:03,159
said to him a telegram, blood is thicker than heavy water,

2151
02:31:03,399 --> 02:31:05,559
you know, like basically go fund yourself, you know, like

2152
02:31:05,639 --> 02:31:07,840
we're not. We're not. We do. We want to be

2153
02:31:07,879 --> 02:31:10,479
thrilled that they that that, you know, the the bare

2154
02:31:10,479 --> 02:31:12,079
amount is here and we don't know what the hell

2155
02:31:12,120 --> 02:31:16,600
they're doing, you know, at this facility, but you know,

2156
02:31:16,639 --> 02:31:18,719
we're not. We're not gonna help you in Piggy Churchill

2157
02:31:18,719 --> 02:31:21,159
will find other ways to attack our country, you know.

2158
02:31:21,200 --> 02:31:28,040
And I think that's really interesting, especially considering how in UH,

2159
02:31:28,799 --> 02:31:32,159
particularly in in in English history books and like Quizzling

2160
02:31:32,239 --> 02:31:34,840
is held out it's just this like it's just this buffoon,

2161
02:31:34,920 --> 02:31:36,639
when in reality he was a great man. But also

2162
02:31:36,719 --> 02:31:43,360
they it's pretended that like Norway was a either fully

2163
02:31:43,399 --> 02:31:45,639
on board with the Allies with this like victim state,

2164
02:31:45,760 --> 02:31:47,879
you know, like a lot like you know, there was

2165
02:31:47,920 --> 02:31:51,799
a about five sweet five and ten thousand Norwegians like

2166
02:31:51,879 --> 02:31:55,479
joining vafen SS and for a populationized in Norway. That's substantial.

2167
02:31:55,959 --> 02:31:59,120
Like Nude Hampson, it was kind of like the National

2168
02:31:59,120 --> 02:32:01,239
Scribe in Norway. You know, he literally wrote a eulogy

2169
02:32:01,239 --> 02:32:03,120
to add off Hitler like they I mean there Rwegians

2170
02:32:03,200 --> 02:32:06,879
are great people, but I and it's just an interesting

2171
02:32:07,000 --> 02:32:11,520
kind of wrinkle that you know, they refuse to participate

2172
02:32:12,639 --> 02:32:16,600
in kind of these UH, these designs of of London,

2173
02:32:18,559 --> 02:32:22,319
even at the height of the of the of the

2174
02:32:22,360 --> 02:32:29,120
early phase of the war. At the UH same time

2175
02:32:31,799 --> 02:32:36,079
the UH, the British approached, at least as we know

2176
02:32:36,159 --> 02:32:40,760
from the record, the British approached the senior British scientific

2177
02:32:40,799 --> 02:32:49,280
representative and UH in the in in in the air

2178
02:32:49,319 --> 02:32:55,200
Mistry Committee. He wrote, he wrote to the chairman of UH,

2179
02:32:55,879 --> 02:32:59,520
Roosevelt's Scientific Advisory Committee, like when he was in Washington,

2180
02:32:59,639 --> 02:33:04,959
I believe like if I read that right, you know,

2181
02:33:05,000 --> 02:33:07,440
basically like you know, kind of feeling out, you know,

2182
02:33:07,520 --> 02:33:10,319
the the Yanks about you know, what the state of

2183
02:33:10,319 --> 02:33:14,000
their research was. And of course like they nobody else

2184
02:33:14,000 --> 02:33:16,319
had the Manhattan Project, you know, like knew anything. Like

2185
02:33:16,319 --> 02:33:19,159
even if they had, I it's I mean, it's debatable

2186
02:33:19,159 --> 02:33:21,079
if they would have just closed that or not. But

2187
02:33:22,879 --> 02:33:26,920
you know, there was a it was a security was

2188
02:33:27,000 --> 02:33:30,719
very very tight, to say the least. But he voted

2189
02:33:30,719 --> 02:33:33,159
the question, you know, this is it proves possible to

2190
02:33:33,239 --> 02:33:36,280
manufacture a uranium bomb, you know, should in fact be used?

2191
02:33:36,920 --> 02:33:40,920
You know, like should we should should it should? You

2192
02:33:40,920 --> 02:33:44,760
know one of our respective general staffs are both like

2193
02:33:44,920 --> 02:33:47,479
are they willing and should they sanction the total destruction

2194
02:33:47,559 --> 02:33:52,360
of Berlin and the entire you know, or or like

2195
02:33:52,440 --> 02:33:55,120
the entire country in Germany, you know, with with a

2196
02:33:55,159 --> 02:33:58,520
weapons such as this, you know, And it's uh, that's

2197
02:33:58,559 --> 02:34:03,079
really the only the kind of the kind of lame

2198
02:34:03,440 --> 02:34:09,239
indirect reply was from Stimson, who in Stimpson, like I

2199
02:34:09,360 --> 02:34:13,200
mentioned earlier tonight, but also like in the past I've

2200
02:34:13,200 --> 02:34:15,840
mentioned that Stimpson was a you know, an outlier in

2201
02:34:15,879 --> 02:34:18,639
the new New Dealer regime. But you know, he said

2202
02:34:18,719 --> 02:34:23,000
years after the fact that you know, in ninety three

2203
02:34:23,840 --> 02:34:29,520
we believed, based on you know, intelligence derived that we

2204
02:34:29,559 --> 02:34:32,559
consider reliable, that you know, the Germans were far ahead

2205
02:34:32,600 --> 02:34:37,879
of us and weaponized atomic research. I think Stimpson probably

2206
02:34:37,879 --> 02:34:41,479
believed that. But it's interesting I raised the issue of

2207
02:34:43,120 --> 02:34:48,200
the UK scientific representative like not only raising this moral quagmire,

2208
02:34:48,280 --> 02:34:52,440
but you know, kind of putting it to paper literally

2209
02:34:52,479 --> 02:34:55,719
in the documentary record. That's the only that's the only

2210
02:34:55,799 --> 02:35:01,639
such moral qualm I've ever heard from a British source

2211
02:35:01,719 --> 02:35:07,360
about about the about the atomic bomb from you know,

2212
02:35:07,360 --> 02:35:09,680
from the era before it was it even you know,

2213
02:35:09,760 --> 02:35:18,600
had been devised into existence. Bomber Harris, uh spoke very

2214
02:35:18,639 --> 02:35:24,000
candidly and intelligently and the morality of strategic bombing you

2215
02:35:24,000 --> 02:35:26,840
know later on, but that not of the out of

2216
02:35:26,840 --> 02:35:33,399
the nuclear question. But it's uh, I think the stuff's

2217
02:35:33,479 --> 02:35:37,239
useful to kind of it paints a picture of what

2218
02:35:37,319 --> 02:35:41,639
was in the minds of the relevant players, you know,

2219
02:35:41,799 --> 02:35:47,799
like I said by them, I in reality, America was

2220
02:35:47,799 --> 02:35:51,959
far ahead of everybody in terms of you know, applied

2221
02:35:52,440 --> 02:35:59,239
atomic weapons research. Plutonium was first synthesized, synthetically produced, and

2222
02:35:59,360 --> 02:36:06,680
isolated in late nineteen forty by deuteron bombardment of uranium

2223
02:36:06,760 --> 02:36:11,959
two thirty eight in a cyclotron at Unity of California, Berkeley, Okay,

2224
02:36:12,200 --> 02:36:19,000
and the ultimately plutonium plutonium proved to be a game changer.

2225
02:36:19,440 --> 02:36:22,760
The Nagasaki bomb was a was a plutonium bomb, okay.

2226
02:36:23,319 --> 02:36:30,000
But even like, aside from that, just uh at separating

2227
02:36:30,120 --> 02:36:33,079
uh plutonium from a chain you're acting uranium pile and

2228
02:36:33,079 --> 02:36:37,040
then using that as an atomic explosive. Just the fact

2229
02:36:37,040 --> 02:36:41,959
that possibility had been recognized, that meant that you know,

2230
02:36:42,040 --> 02:36:45,840
from you know, basically from inception of the Manhattan Project

2231
02:36:45,920 --> 02:36:48,319
was like on the path like developing an atomic bomb,

2232
02:36:48,360 --> 02:36:52,879
like in concrete terms, which is pretty remarkable. I mean

2233
02:36:52,920 --> 02:36:54,959
in all kinds of ways, I mean, like good and bad.

2234
02:36:55,879 --> 02:37:06,840
But the the uh, yeah, I was gonna say, Oh,

2235
02:37:06,959 --> 02:37:16,799
the UH summer of nineteen forty one in Germany, the UH,

2236
02:37:16,959 --> 02:37:20,600
the Army of Research Department had formally contracted Norwegian Hydro

2237
02:37:20,920 --> 02:37:23,479
for a supply of fifteen hundred kilograms of heavy water

2238
02:37:23,920 --> 02:37:31,319
between October and the end of the year or but

2239
02:37:31,479 --> 02:37:33,159
from October nineteen end of the year only three to

2240
02:37:33,200 --> 02:37:38,959
sixty one kilgrams have been delivered. It was slow going.

2241
02:37:39,000 --> 02:37:43,639
In other words, like if if this was in a

2242
02:37:45,680 --> 02:37:48,719
like even if even the process which was outlined at

2243
02:37:48,760 --> 02:37:52,000
the second Berlin Conference, which essentially amount of, do you know,

2244
02:37:52,040 --> 02:37:56,200
the creation of a reactor and subsequently you know, the

2245
02:37:56,280 --> 02:38:01,920
utilization of that reactor and the heavy water cooling to uh,

2246
02:38:02,399 --> 02:38:06,879
you know, to cultivate uranium two thirty five, Like even

2247
02:38:06,920 --> 02:38:09,280
if that, even if that was the objective and it

2248
02:38:09,319 --> 02:38:13,639
was on track. Arguably in terms of you know, both

2249
02:38:13,680 --> 02:38:17,520
intent and capability. This seems far too slow a process

2250
02:38:17,639 --> 02:38:22,799
to make any kind of difference on the battlefeel. We'll

2251
02:38:22,799 --> 02:38:25,959
get into exactly what I mean in a minute. But

2252
02:38:26,000 --> 02:38:29,280
what's important is that once, once, this, once this heavy

2253
02:38:29,319 --> 02:38:34,639
water cultivation got underway, Heisenberg attested. He said it was

2254
02:38:34,920 --> 02:38:37,360
from September forty one. He's like, we saw an open

2255
02:38:37,360 --> 02:38:40,200
a road ahead of us leading to an atomic bomb. Okay,

2256
02:38:40,200 --> 02:38:41,959
It's like, this is when I became convinced it was

2257
02:38:42,000 --> 02:38:47,680
at least possible. And that's when, uh, you know, just

2258
02:38:47,799 --> 02:38:52,120
kind of a what was what was gleaned from you know,

2259
02:38:52,520 --> 02:38:56,959
just these processes that were actively underway. Things came into

2260
02:38:57,120 --> 02:39:00,479
focus and a kind of conceptual capacity. Ethemics like, I'm

2261
02:39:00,479 --> 02:39:02,319
not a scientist, so I take these guys words for

2262
02:39:02,399 --> 02:39:05,479
it in their testimony when they suggest that this is

2263
02:39:07,319 --> 02:39:10,159
this is a you know, a real process. Whatever the

2264
02:39:10,280 --> 02:39:16,559
endeavor is, Neil's borr uh, and this is important. The

2265
02:39:16,680 --> 02:39:19,639
end of October ninety forty one, heis Montreil the Denmark

2266
02:39:19,680 --> 02:39:21,959
to seek out Neils Borr, who was one of the

2267
02:39:21,959 --> 02:39:24,879
pre eminent physics minds on this planet, and heisen he

2268
02:39:24,920 --> 02:39:28,120
was something of a mentor tot Heisenberg. Heisenberg asked him

2269
02:39:28,600 --> 02:39:32,920
in at Boor's home, he said, you know, and I

2270
02:39:33,040 --> 02:39:35,639
was Heisenberg wasn't being loose lipped and telling him like

2271
02:39:35,680 --> 02:39:41,040
what he was working on. He asked for just you know,

2272
02:39:41,239 --> 02:39:44,719
basically like, you know, what, what do you think of

2273
02:39:44,760 --> 02:39:47,639
the like is there a moral obligation and not cultivate,

2274
02:39:47,959 --> 02:39:51,159
you know, a weapon from atomic energy? Like basically, like,

2275
02:39:51,200 --> 02:39:53,920
what's the moral implications of working on an atomic bomb

2276
02:39:53,920 --> 02:39:58,879
in wartime if such a thing were possible? You know?

2277
02:40:02,120 --> 02:40:05,000
Orr said that you know it, you know, well, you

2278
02:40:05,000 --> 02:40:10,200
know the responsibility once fatherland versus you know, his duty

2279
02:40:10,239 --> 02:40:12,680
to you know, the scientific community as well as you know,

2280
02:40:12,760 --> 02:40:15,120
like human progress, all these things only need to be weighed.

2281
02:40:18,719 --> 02:40:22,559
Borr afterwards came away believing that this was like Heisenberg's

2282
02:40:22,600 --> 02:40:24,920
kind of like it was either Heisenberg sort of like

2283
02:40:24,959 --> 02:40:28,120
thinly veiled confession, or it was him trying to convey

2284
02:40:28,159 --> 02:40:30,079
to him and sort of like a culted language that

2285
02:40:30,120 --> 02:40:36,079
he was building an atomic bomb quite literally, and he

2286
02:40:36,079 --> 02:40:39,000
he see He later said Bored that he was deeply

2287
02:40:39,040 --> 02:40:45,520
shocked this. I believe Borr basically told all of his

2288
02:40:45,600 --> 02:40:51,719
intimates within kind of the small fraternity of European physicists

2289
02:40:51,760 --> 02:40:54,479
that you know, Heisenberg came to see me, and the

2290
02:40:54,520 --> 02:40:57,440
Reich is building a bomb, okay. And I think that's

2291
02:40:57,479 --> 02:40:59,479
when the kind of myth of the German atomic bomb

2292
02:40:59,520 --> 02:41:02,520
program really kind of took off in earnest, not in

2293
02:41:02,559 --> 02:41:05,319
a propaganic capacity. I think people actually believe this, and

2294
02:41:05,360 --> 02:41:09,840
I think Bora actually believed this too. But even if

2295
02:41:09,840 --> 02:41:11,440
that were true, and I'm gonna wrap up here in

2296
02:41:11,440 --> 02:41:19,319
a moment, but as fall became winter in nineteen forty one,

2297
02:41:19,559 --> 02:41:22,360
the Wehrmacht was stopped dead its tracks at the gates

2298
02:41:22,399 --> 02:41:27,159
of Moscow, you know, and as we talked about many

2299
02:41:27,239 --> 02:41:31,639
times in our series, you know, the right the Soviet

2300
02:41:31,719 --> 02:41:36,000
Union had to fall in December, you know, the the

2301
02:41:36,159 --> 02:41:40,520
entire German state, it's national economics, everything about it was

2302
02:41:44,200 --> 02:41:49,479
configured towards quote short wars with long respites, you know.

2303
02:41:49,520 --> 02:41:51,760
Like That's why I always emphasized that the Third Reich

2304
02:41:51,879 --> 02:41:54,479
was not some like mirror the Soviet Union. It was

2305
02:41:54,520 --> 02:41:57,319
not mobilized for war from the top down. It did

2306
02:41:57,319 --> 02:42:00,639
not even have a wartime mobilization scheme on play you

2307
02:42:00,639 --> 02:42:05,159
know until Lany forty three. You know, this was uh

2308
02:42:05,959 --> 02:42:11,159
the fact that, uh, the assault on Moscow failed. I mean,

2309
02:42:11,159 --> 02:42:13,479
this was a disaster, like ultimately this cost the war.

2310
02:42:14,159 --> 02:42:22,520
But immediately, uh, in December forty one, Hitler issued the

2311
02:42:22,600 --> 02:42:24,879
edicts that the need to the German national economy or

2312
02:42:24,920 --> 02:42:29,719
to give way to the necessities the arment's economy, and

2313
02:42:29,760 --> 02:42:36,479
that meant that, you know, uh, Fritz Toad on December third,

2314
02:42:36,639 --> 02:42:38,719
and for those who don't know, Fritz Toad was the

2315
02:42:39,959 --> 02:42:43,639
Albert Spear succeeded Fritz Toad as Armaments and Munitions Minister

2316
02:42:43,719 --> 02:42:49,680
after Toad was killed. Toads informed Hitler that the economy

2317
02:42:49,760 --> 02:42:52,680
was literally at the breaking point, and from then on,

2318
02:42:52,799 --> 02:42:57,319
any expansion in one sector to meet military necessities had

2319
02:42:57,360 --> 02:43:01,760
to be balanced by you know, reduction in another. You know,

2320
02:43:02,079 --> 02:43:10,040
Hitler drafted a decree essentially with like Toast's uh input

2321
02:43:10,239 --> 02:43:15,239
as to a you know what what this would entail,

2322
02:43:15,600 --> 02:43:17,879
you know, and essentially like shedding all like non essential

2323
02:43:17,920 --> 02:43:23,239
projects from like any firms or institutions like engaged in

2324
02:43:23,280 --> 02:43:27,440
applied research of a non military nature. Like essentially like

2325
02:43:27,520 --> 02:43:37,399
that was over. You know, it's uh. Professor Schumann, one

2326
02:43:37,399 --> 02:43:44,440
of the Genda conference attendees, he drafted an open letter

2327
02:43:44,600 --> 02:43:48,079
to all institutes working in the arene In project and

2328
02:43:48,120 --> 02:43:50,040
he said, he said to no one certain terms that

2329
02:43:50,479 --> 02:43:52,760
the quote, the work and the project undertaken by the

2330
02:43:52,760 --> 02:43:55,200
research group is making demands which can be justified in

2331
02:43:55,239 --> 02:43:57,840
the current recruiting and raw materials crisis only if there's

2332
02:43:57,840 --> 02:43:59,600
a certainty of getting some benefit from it in the

2333
02:43:59,600 --> 02:44:04,520
near few. Sure, you know, and that uh and that

2334
02:44:04,719 --> 02:44:09,840
uh and that that was that man, it's we can

2335
02:44:11,399 --> 02:44:13,719
there's more to the story of the virus house. As

2336
02:44:13,760 --> 02:44:19,399
the war went on, and particularly as you know the

2337
02:44:19,520 --> 02:44:22,479
tide truly turned, I mean and seek was no longer

2338
02:44:22,520 --> 02:44:28,120
a possibility after December forty one, but after Stalingrad, you know,

2339
02:44:28,159 --> 02:44:30,760
it can there's obviously like an opening a new questions

2340
02:44:30,840 --> 02:44:35,280
like why did the Iranian project continue? But that oh

2341
02:44:35,440 --> 02:44:41,319
do uh? That oh do I that old kind of

2342
02:44:41,360 --> 02:44:45,440
the nature of of modern modern bureaucracy, particularly in a

2343
02:44:45,479 --> 02:44:48,680
state of total war, you know, like these things that

2344
02:44:48,719 --> 02:44:51,159
are earmarked for funding of a way even an emergency

2345
02:44:51,280 --> 02:44:56,399
was kind of continuing to go on, you know, were

2346
02:44:56,440 --> 02:44:59,920
there were there's some people too, like within Dutch just

2347
02:45:00,040 --> 02:45:03,520
the research group, but within the military establishment, who had

2348
02:45:03,600 --> 02:45:06,760
who did understand the implications of this uranium research and

2349
02:45:06,840 --> 02:45:09,239
did think that there was potential for a real viable

2350
02:45:09,360 --> 02:45:12,440
device to be cultivated from it, you know, in a

2351
02:45:12,440 --> 02:45:14,840
way that could like help Germany. Yeah, I think there were.

2352
02:45:17,840 --> 02:45:21,040
David Ermi certainly seemed to think there were. We get

2353
02:45:21,040 --> 02:45:23,760
into some of that next episode, and I promise, I

2354
02:45:23,799 --> 02:45:27,040
I'll wrap it up. But there's just a lot here, man,

2355
02:45:27,200 --> 02:45:29,840
you know, and like, uh, I think, uh, I think

2356
02:45:29,840 --> 02:45:34,079
the entire story needs to be told. But yeah, that's

2357
02:45:34,120 --> 02:45:36,239
a I'm getting uncomfortable with form, like sitting for this

2358
02:45:36,399 --> 02:45:39,719
hour rightly, and I don't want to bore people at death.

2359
02:45:39,760 --> 02:45:42,399
But yeah, well we'll take this up in for a

2360
02:45:42,440 --> 02:45:45,479
part four and I'll I'll wrap it up then, I promise.

2361
02:45:46,159 --> 02:45:48,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think it's boring. I think people are

2362
02:45:48,200 --> 02:45:51,120
getting a lot out of this, So yeah, we'll do

2363
02:45:51,440 --> 02:45:52,399
we'll do wrap it up.

2364
02:45:52,360 --> 02:45:54,920
Speaker 2: With part.

2365
02:45:55,319 --> 02:45:59,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, but do plugs real quick and we'll get it.

2366
02:45:59,440 --> 02:45:59,959
We'll get out of it.

2367
02:46:00,040 --> 02:46:05,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. You can find me on Twitter still or

2368
02:46:06,040 --> 02:46:10,399
X rather. I hate all like porny that scenes like

2369
02:46:10,399 --> 02:46:11,799
I don't like, I don't like I was like I

2370
02:46:11,840 --> 02:46:13,920
was on my phone like on the fucking train. It

2371
02:46:14,040 --> 02:46:15,319
was like some chick next to me and like you

2372
02:46:15,319 --> 02:46:17,000
only over the abs gonna be X. It's like, man,

2373
02:46:17,000 --> 02:46:20,200
I don't that just looks fucking I just don't like it.

2374
02:46:20,239 --> 02:46:25,479
But it's a real capital R E A L underscore

2375
02:46:25,680 --> 02:46:30,399
number seven h one e S seven seven seven on

2376
02:46:30,399 --> 02:46:34,680
on bird app or x app or whatever. The whole

2377
02:46:34,680 --> 02:46:37,040
of my podcast and some of my like longer form

2378
02:46:37,079 --> 02:46:41,120
stuff is on substack. That's the prime primary place to

2379
02:46:41,200 --> 02:46:44,479
hit me up. And it's a real Thomas seven seven

2380
02:46:44,559 --> 02:46:47,840
seven dot substick dot com. You can find my website

2381
02:46:47,879 --> 02:46:51,440
which is still under construction, but there's stuff there. It's uh,

2382
02:46:51,760 --> 02:46:54,520
just Thomas seven seven seven dot com number seven H

2383
02:46:54,559 --> 02:46:58,280
one E S seven seven seven dot com. My YouTube

2384
02:46:58,319 --> 02:47:00,879
channel is Thomas TV. I'm leaving for Utah on a

2385
02:47:00,879 --> 02:47:03,799
few days. Issue dedicated content for it, which I'm excited about.

2386
02:47:04,520 --> 02:47:06,959
As time goes on, we're gonna do more with that.

2387
02:47:07,159 --> 02:47:09,319
But I got a lot going on right now. I'll

2388
02:47:09,319 --> 02:47:12,520
be dropping more long form like books like in the spring.

2389
02:47:14,440 --> 02:47:17,319
You know, Season two of the pod is coming up

2390
02:47:17,360 --> 02:47:21,159
in September. Yeah, all kinds of stuff.

2391
02:47:21,200 --> 02:47:22,799
Speaker 3: Man, I appreciate it.

2392
02:47:22,879 --> 02:47:24,639
Speaker 1: Safe travels until the next time,