WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:07.599 Welcome, Welcome, welcome. You're listening to Jay's analysis, and we 2 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:12.199 are going live. Gonna let the audience trickle in here 3 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:15.640 a little bit, see if we can build up a 4 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:22.480 little bit of watch your viewership listenership. Excuse me before 5 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:31.719 we actually get going with the debate, before I send him, No, 6 00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:35.039 we're not late. I'm just I'm on the road, so 7 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:36.920 I'm at a bit of a disadvantage. I don't have 8 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:45.560 my library with me, and I'm not really familiar with 9 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:50.679 mister fun doctor Feeld. Actually he we have mutual friends. 10 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:54.600 I've been friends with some guys for about a decade 11 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:58.560 that set this up, and I'm glad to do this 12 00:00:58.719 --> 00:01:01.119 because it's been so long since I've done it, real 13 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:06.239 debate with a trained person and these kinds of ideas. 14 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:11.840 You know, we get the internet philosophers, but we don't 15 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:19.319 often get trained academic types. So I'm going to send 16 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:23.480 him the link now, and I'm gonna be going from 17 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:26.400 memory here. I've got some of my articles pulled up 18 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:28.519 because I'm on the road, but I didn't want to 19 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:32.200 say no to this debate, and if need be, we 20 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:38.319 may down the road have successive debates that deal with 21 00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:41.480 you know, maybe questions that get raised in this debate. Right, So, 22 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:43.239 since I'm on the road, I don't have my sumo 23 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:46.599 with me, I don't have the Sumo countries and TLAs, 24 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:50.879 I don't have my thmistic commentaries. I'm going to be 25 00:01:50.920 --> 00:01:53.640 going from memory. And but again, it's not that hard 26 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.159 to know what Thomas's doctrin of divine simplicity is. It's 27 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:01.439 pretty clearly stated multiple times in Volume one of the 28 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:04.599 sum and in Volume one of the Super Countridge and 29 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:09.319 Tea Lace. So I've sent him the link, so he 30 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:12.960 should be coming in pretty soon, and I imagine it 31 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:18.800 will be a pretty pretty laid back debate. Doctor fine Gold, 32 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:27.000 How are you good? How are you? Mister Dyer? You jay? Okay? 33 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:29.919 That's cool. Thanks for doing the debate, man, how are you? 34 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:31.400 I'm doing all right. 35 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:32.879 Thank you for having me on. It's an honor. 36 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:37.879 Yeah. I appreciate justin putting it together. I know he 37 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:39.840 was kind of looking for somebody to do a debate 38 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:42.159 for a while, and I think you would be a 39 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:47.479 perfect category or a perfect person for this category. You 40 00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:49.039 you want to tell us a little bit about yourself 41 00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:51.400 and your research, and that you I think you did 42 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:54.080 your dissertation on Thomas right, sure, yeah. 43 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:59.080 So my dissertation, which I defined it last November, was 44 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:02.599 on divine impass ability in aquitness, so specifically trying to 45 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:06.439 deal with the problem of how to reconcile standard to 46 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:13.120 missing doctrines like pure actuality and divine simplicity with the 47 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:16.039 dependence of the love of the love around the beloved, 48 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:20.560 which seems to imply passibility. And are you still there? 49 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:23.280 Because yeah, you know, you might want to cut your 50 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:26.280 camera off because it's good, it'll use a lot of bandwidth, 51 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:28.199 and we might want to audio. 52 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:30.919 Let's see if I can figure out how to do that. 53 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:35.080 There we go, Yeah, yeah, that'll probably be a little smoother. 54 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:38.840 Now sounds good. And I want to add two to 55 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:41.879 the audience that we will will be taking we are 56 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:45.520 you cool taking questions? Of course? Okay, so people in 57 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.080 the audience, if you want to do super chat questions, 58 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:51.159 will take those. As usual, I always split the super 59 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:54.479 chats with the guests, so doctor fine Gold will get 60 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:56.639 half of the super chat questions that you guys ask, 61 00:03:57.039 --> 00:03:59.280 So come up with some good ones. As we discuss here, 62 00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:02.919 I'm thinking maybe we could do a pretty free flowing 63 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:06.199 conversation style doesn't have to be formal debate, mainly because 64 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:08.840 I'm not at my library, so I'm on the road 65 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:10.759 and I'm kind of going from memory. You have the 66 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:14.680 home court advantage all sort of. I just have my laptops. 67 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:18.680 But okay, well that's fine, so I'll do you How 68 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:21.680 do we want to start this off? Do you want to? Uh, 69 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:25.120 let me ask you? Are you are you very familiar 70 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:27.600 with Eastern theology or like the Eastern. 71 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:30.040 Now I can't claim a lot of familiarity. I have 72 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.000 a couple of paragraphs on Pollens and my dissertation, but 73 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:36.639 that's about it. So if you want to, maybe it 74 00:04:36.680 --> 00:04:38.399 would be good to do something like this where you 75 00:04:38.439 --> 00:04:42.240 give the basic polem my position, which I take it 76 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:46.959 you'll be defending. I'll give the basic elevator pitch for aquitness, 77 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:48.279 and then we can start probing. 78 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:53.680 Sure, so I'll start off by saying that the Palamite 79 00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:58.720 position actually isn't the the position just of San Palamas. 80 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:02.040 In fact, it's a doctrine that I would say pretty 81 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:05.040 clearly as taught in Saint Bezols letter two thirty four, 82 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:08.480 where he exp makes the distinction between the essence and energy, 83 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.480 or the essence and the operations of God. If we 84 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:17.000 look at Saint John Damascus's Orthodox Faith in multiple times 85 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:20.079 throughout the work he makes the distinction between the essence 86 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:22.800 and energy of God. Of course, in book one he 87 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:26.120 will say that the energy of God is one, and 88 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:27.600 then he goes on to say that the energy of 89 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.680 God is also multiple. For us, that's a one in 90 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:33.120 the many questions where we don't actually see a dialectic, 91 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:36.240 but in fact the energies of God are or actions 92 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:39.759 of God are multiple. And later on on the Orthodox 93 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:44.720 Faith he even clarifies this in a more intense way 94 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:47.800 when he talks about the energies in Christ and the Incarnation, 95 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:54.639 specifically the relationship between the two natural wills and operations 96 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:58.120 or energies in the two natures. This, of course is 97 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:03.279 because the six that Conical Council dealt extensively with debating 98 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:06.560 the Mono Thelites on the question of Christ and the 99 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:10.720 Incarnation having two wills and two energy's property to the 100 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:13.759 proper to those natures. So I would argue, as Saint 101 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:17.439 Gregory Palamas does against Barlam, and as Saint Gregor sat 102 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:23.000 Maximus the Confessor did against against Paris the Mono Thelite, 103 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:28.639 that the nature grace question and the question of the 104 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:32.680 essence and energies distinction in the incarnation is even clearer 105 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:35.519 when we understand that there's no dialectics. So there's no 106 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:38.759 dialectics in the relationship between nature and grace. There's no 107 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:43.720 dialectics between the relationship of Christ's human nature and energy 108 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:46.959 participating in the divine nature and energy. So, in other words, 109 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:50.279 the uncreated energies of God. It's not just a question 110 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:54.759 of God's relationship to creation, but it's also solidified dogmatically 111 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:58.920 and theologically in the sixth Ecumenical Council when it deals 112 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:02.480 with this specific question. If you read the debate between 113 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:05.920 Saint Maximus and Puris, you'll see that Maximus relies throughout 114 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:10.360 in that one hundred and fifty page treatise on this 115 00:07:10.439 --> 00:07:14.120 being a real distinction. This real distinction allows for God 116 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:17.279 to remain transcend it in his essence and yet come 117 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:20.519 down to us and allow us to participate in his 118 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:24.399 uncreated glory and life. Jesus says in John seventeen that 119 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:27.079 he came to give us the same glory that he 120 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:29.800 shares with the Father from all eternity. That glory that 121 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:33.000 light is not created, is in fact uncreated, and it's 122 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:36.319 not something that just is postponed to an intellectual vision 123 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:39.319 in the afterlife to be a tipic vision. And in fact, 124 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:42.279 it is something that's participated in here and now, and 125 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:45.240 we know that by the fact of the incarnation. In fact, 126 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:48.120 when the Fathers at the six Ecumenical Council and at 127 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:51.199 the fifth by the way, talk about the incarnation, they 128 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:54.800 speak of the humanity of Christ as being deified via 129 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:59.120 the incarnation. Again, this process is done by the uncreated 130 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:04.240 energies which proceed from the divine nature, certainly, although they're 131 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:06.319 not the exact same as the divine nature. In our view, 132 00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:09.439 that is the that is the means by which the 133 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:13.920 humanity of Christ participates in the divine life. That's explicitly 134 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:17.279 stated quoting from Saint Gregor Nissa and Saint Gregor of 135 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:20.639 Nazianzus and the theological orations at the fifth and sixth Council. 136 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.199 So it's repeated, it's reaffirmed. We also have statements at 137 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:28.279 the Council of Ephesus citing Saint Cyril of Alexandria Gisnastoria, 138 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:32.039 so that the bread and wine in a similar way, 139 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:35.759 participate in these divine energies. There are multiple references to 140 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:38.919 these same ideas in the Liturgies of the East, all 141 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:42.320 which talk about the operations of God. The baptismal right, 142 00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:45.000 for example, talks about calling down the energies of God 143 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:48.080 into the baptismal font. And again it's all just based 144 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:53.279 on our crystological understanding, which we see as again dogmatically 145 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:56.559 stating in the sixth and fifth Council, that the energies 146 00:08:56.600 --> 00:09:01.320 deify the humanity. So that model of deification of Christ's 147 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:05.639 humanity is the model for the individual believer, the individual 148 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.559 baptized Christian, as they participate in God through the Church, 149 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:13.320 through the sacraments, and that that participation is a real participation, 150 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:18.000 but it's a participation in the uncreated glory, an uncreated light, 151 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:21.960 uncreated grace of God, not a created grace. So I 152 00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:27.120 would contrast this with what's later dogmatized, so not just 153 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:32.320 theoretically or philosophically speculated upon an aquinas in terms of 154 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:36.000 how there might be a relationship between this absolutely simple 155 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:41.240 essence and created beings, or this absolutely simple essence and 156 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:46.519 the one person of the Trinity somehow becoming incarnate. Rather, 157 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:50.200 it is the question of the Roman dogmas, and the 158 00:09:50.279 --> 00:09:53.799 Roman dogmas do eventually state. And I think I'm vindicating 159 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:56.759 this by this, not just in my reading of what's 160 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:00.320 that the Roman Council's, particularly like Tranth or Vatican One, 161 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:05.240 where dogmatic divide simplicity has stated pretty clearly, you also 162 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:07.639 have the outworkings of this in terms of created grace. 163 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:10.679 You know, Trent has, if I recall, going from memory, 164 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:15.720 a condemnation of different speculations about what kind of grace 165 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:18.759 and justification is actually given in baptism, and one of 166 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:22.000 the things that's condemned is the idea that it's not 167 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:26.480 created grace. So, in other words, the grace that is 168 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:30.639 stamped upon our soul, the sanctifying grace, is a created effect. 169 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:32.919 And of course this is again in that sort of 170 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:36.480 riscituentan causal format of God the cause, and then we 171 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:40.360 receive the effects of that cause. But the effects that 172 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:43.480 we receive are in fact created. And I would argue 173 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:47.320 that the reason that Rome has this issue is precisely 174 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:53.000 because eventually in the dogma, the uncreated created or excuse me, 175 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:56.399 the uncreated grace, as his energy to sanctioned doctrine was 176 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:01.440 eventually lost, so it was perfectly fine in terms of 177 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:04.679 up into the sixth seventh eighth Council, if you count 178 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:08.120 the eighth r eighth that is where it was stated explicitly. 179 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:10.759 But it eventually, i would say, after the rise of 180 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:15.799 Frankish dominance, Charlemagne, the Carolinians, you eventually have this dogma 181 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:19.039 kind of being lost and forgotten. In Roman Catholic theology 182 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:23.919 pretty much settles into a pretty ossified, solidified doctrine of 183 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:28.720 what divine simplicity is. So there are a lot of errors. 184 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:31.120 I'm going to close up here with this opening statement. 185 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:33.960 I think that's the main the main point we would 186 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:35.840 say that there's a lot of errors that kind of 187 00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:39.279 flow out of this that you can tease out. And 188 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:43.840 so my first clarification is that I'm not debating whether 189 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:47.960 Thomas had good intentions. I'm not debating whether Thomas in 190 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:52.200 other places in the Suma said things correctly. I'm not 191 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:55.720 here to debate Agustin's intentions or and some's intentions, but 192 00:11:55.799 --> 00:11:59.279 rather just specifically whether or not the things that are stated, 193 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:02.279 say in book one of Syma Theologica and in book 194 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:06.399 one of the Semlicuntries and Telaes about what divine simplicity 195 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:09.799 is if that actually makes sense with and comports with 196 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:13.600 what is stated elsewhere about how there is a real 197 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:16.519 distinction of persons, because to us it doesn't seem that 198 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:20.720 there could be a real distinction of persons if distinction 199 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.759 implies composition or division. In fact, that's a direct borrowing 200 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:28.919 from Plutonis, as Plutonis who first said will, following other 201 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:34.879 Greek philosophers before him, that all consideration of distinction implies 202 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:38.039 division or composition. And for us we see that as 203 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:41.799 many times refuted, particularly in the christological heresies, but also 204 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:46.120 in the triological triantological formations of the early Church. So 205 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:49.600 for us, all of these questions are linked the doctrine 206 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:52.799 of God how he relates to creation, also the doctrine 207 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:57.080 of Christology, the doctrine of the sacraments, and the doctrine 208 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:01.879 of eschatology, or all intimately connect an ecclesiology in terms 209 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:04.200 of how we view the essence introducedinction and whether we 210 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:07.519 believe that it's possible or not. So when it comes 211 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:11.840 to Aquinas's conclusions, I'll say that for my later critique, 212 00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:14.840 given the fact that, for example, I don't see how 213 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.080 creation can be a free action of God if we 214 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:21.440 accept his doctrine of device simplicity, and the idea that 215 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:25.480 all the actions of God are absolutely isomorphically identical to 216 00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:28.039 the essence of God. I don't see how we can 217 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:31.200 say that there's a real incarnation if God is an 218 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:34.559 absolutely simple essence, or for example, how we would avoid 219 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:38.519 patropascianism if God is an absolutely simple essence. In other words, 220 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:42.639 that one hypostasis of the trinity couldn't enter into a 221 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:45.759 motive being that the others do not. So, for example, 222 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:48.679 the Father is not crucified, the Father does not become incarnate, 223 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:52.159 it's only the Son. But if God is an absolutely 224 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:57.279 simple essence in which the distinctions implied composition of division, 225 00:13:57.639 --> 00:14:00.360 becomes difficult to see how there is a real nation, 226 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:04.840 how God's actions within time and space are real actions 227 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:08.519 signifying the divine power for as For example, it's common 228 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:11.480 amount to the early Fathers to speak of Christ's human 229 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:14.759 nature being evident when he cries or when he eats, 230 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:18.200 But we see the Fathers also making a strong argument 231 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.240 for the divine power operat in Christ or through Christ. 232 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:25.360 When he walks on water, when he does miracles, when 233 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:27.720 he raises the dead, those are actions proper to the 234 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:31.679 divine nature, and they are real powers entering into time 235 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.919 and space from the divine nature itself. Now we don't 236 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:37.720 believe the divine nature interers into time and space, but 237 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.320 in fact that is possible for the uncreated to enter 238 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:43.799 into time and space because of our belief in the 239 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:47.919 essence introduced sanction. And I'll close with I would say 240 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:50.840 our strongest case in that regard is the fact that 241 00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:54.720 for us, the theophanies of the Old Testament up until 242 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:56.720 Augustine in book three of On the Trinity is when 243 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:02.519 it's first question. The Eastern Fathers never questioned the belief 244 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:06.559 that it is not created holograms or angels that are present, 245 00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:08.840 for example in Exodus three in the Burning Bush, or 246 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.000 in Exodus twenty three where God says I will put 247 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:13.639 my name in my Angel, the Angel of the Lord. 248 00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:17.480 It is consistently believed that these theophanies are the pre 249 00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:23.360 incarnate presence of Christ himself. Tomism and Augustinian debates and 250 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:26.639 discussions and on the Trinity and questioning of this led 251 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:29.960 to the possibility that or led to the conclusion that 252 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.639 it's difficult to see how an absolutely simple Trinitarian essence 253 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.279 could manifest within time and space. Therefore, we have to 254 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:40.720 accept that these are just angelic created forms. We don't 255 00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:42.879 believe that their Angela created forms, and neither do the 256 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:45.720 church fathers who argue that these are these are this 257 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:48.440 is the Logos manifesting within time and space. How is 258 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.360 that possible? It's possible because of the essence energy distinction. 259 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:55.159 So I will close with that and as my opening 260 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:57.159 statement and let you let you speak. 261 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:01.480 All right, Well, there's I had a bit there obviously, 262 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:06.000 so maybe leaving something out, but it sounds as though 263 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:10.200 we've got maybe five or six areas. You're powered right, 264 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.039 So you've got I don't I don't know if you 265 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:13.919 talked about this one explicitly, but you've got the distinction 266 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:17.679 of attributes within God. You're going to have the problem 267 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:20.559 of God's actions of respect to the world. You've got 268 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:22.720 the problem of the trinity. You've got the problem of 269 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:27.480 the hypostatic union and the communication of idioms. And you 270 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:30.559 have the problem of nature and grace and what it 271 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:33.320 means to say that we share in God's life. And 272 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.840 I'm not all these are the same problem. So we 273 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:39.919 should probably take those piece by piece, and I'll try 274 00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:45.000 to get to that in a minute. Since you did 275 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:47.480 a little thing saying what you were clarifying is what 276 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:49.360 you're trying to do and what you're not trying to do, 277 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:51.559 I'll do a little bit of the same. So I'm 278 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:55.399 not a theologian by trade, and my job. The thing 279 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:58.720 what I'm trying to do here isn't primarily to make 280 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:01.840 sense of council document so are the fathers. What I'm 281 00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:04.640 trying to do is to make sense of the coherence 282 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:08.359 of Aquanus's doctrine of divine simplicity as best as I 283 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:11.480 understand it, and I've messed around with the Trinity some 284 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:14.000 I'm not an expert on the aquinus A theory of 285 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:16.359 the hypostatic union, so what I'll be saying about that 286 00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:18.799 will be mostly guesswork, So I'm just throwing that out 287 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:20.079 as Covey ads here. 288 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:22.160 But yeah, and what. 289 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:25.119 You said about impuning motivations, I thoroughly agree with that. 290 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:28.319 I think we're both here to try to safeguard God's 291 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:35.599 transcendence and try unity as best as we can. So 292 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:40.160 let me start my elevator pitch, which I'll try to 293 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:44.519 keep fairly short, just by explaining why somebody like Aquinas 294 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:48.440 would find the doction of divine simplicity appealing, and then 295 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:51.440 we can go over how in the context of that 296 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.119 doctrine you try to make sense of the other things 297 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:54.400 that you talked about. Does that sound good? 298 00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:55.960 Sure? Okay? 299 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:02.960 So the basic reason for affirming divine simplicity it comes 300 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:08.119 from affirming the philosophical and obviously a theological a doction 301 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:10.640 of the first cause. What does it mean to say 302 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:16.559 that there is a being who is absolutely first? What 303 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:18.440 does it mean to say that there is a being which, 304 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:22.559 unlike any being that we know of, it does not 305 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:27.119 need a further explanation behind itself. So all Aquinas is 306 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:30.319 famous proofs for God's existence, and this goes for Aristotle 307 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:38.559 as well. Are going to argue from our experience in 308 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:43.119 the created world of things which are a certain way 309 00:18:43.160 --> 00:18:47.519 that didn't have to be, and arguing from that to 310 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:51.200 a cause which you might say, not to use aquitas 311 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:55.720 own terms, but something which is the sufficient reason of 312 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:57.759 its own being that way. 313 00:18:57.880 --> 00:18:58.279 Right, So the. 314 00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:01.119 Argument for emotion. We see things that change, we see 315 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:05.039 things that move. What does that mean? That means we 316 00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:10.160 see something which was in potency becomes actualized and we 317 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:12.440 want to figure out what on earth did it do 318 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:16.400 that what's responsible for it's going from potency into act 319 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:20.319 And you can say there was something else that actualized that. 320 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:21.680 That's fine, but then you've got to ask the same 321 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:25.119 question about it. Does it have an actualized potency? If so, 322 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:27.039 what made that one actualize? And so you're going to 323 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:30.759 keep on chasing that ball until you come up with 324 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:34.720 something which has no potency but just it is pure actuality. Right, 325 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:38.440 So that's the famous domestic doctrine of Actus Purus. Sure, 326 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:42.960 I'm sure you're well familiar with and thinks that it's 327 00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:46.039 once you grant the pure act doctrine, in other words, 328 00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:51.640 that there is nothing there's nothing in God whose reality 329 00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:55.000 has to be explained by something outside of itself. There's 330 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:59.160 nothing in God that could have been otherwise that was 331 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:02.640 made to be the way is by something that wasn't itself. 332 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.319 Once you grant that, Aquanus thinks that it's a short 333 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:11.599 step to the doction of absolute simplicity. Because for Aquitas, 334 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:16.960 whenever you have parts, where you're going to have is 335 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:20.480 some sort of potency act relationship. Right, So when you 336 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:23.839 have talking there are different kinds of parts. I'm not 337 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:27.519 sure how familiar you are with Aquinas's myriology with the 338 00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:30.759 study of parts and holes. Right, So the most obvious 339 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:33.079 kind of parts is going to be integral parts. 340 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:33.279 Right. 341 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:34.839 So like the bricks that make up a house. 342 00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:35.480 Right. 343 00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:37.240 So in the case of the bricks that make up 344 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:42.039 a house, you've got actual, actually some mutual dependence relations going, right, 345 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:45.720 because the house wouldn't be a house unless it was 346 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:50.440 built up out of these parts. Right, So there's dependence there. 347 00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:54.640 But likewise, these bricks only actually count as what they 348 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:57.119 are in the parts of the house because of their 349 00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:00.559 dependence on the whole. Right, yourselves are humans because they're 350 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.759 part of your human body. And so with regular integral 351 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:07.960 or quantitative parts as they're sometimes called, you're not going 352 00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:10.799 you don't want to predicate those of God, because then 353 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:14.599 you'd be introducing potency into what by definition can't have it. 354 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:16.759 If it did have it, then you'd have to ask 355 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:19.119 what actualized the potency, and you want to have reached 356 00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:23.079 the actual first cause yet, So that's for integral parts. 357 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:27.240 Usually what people are worried about, when at least people 358 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:30.359 who grant that God's immaterial, what they're worried about when 359 00:21:31.480 --> 00:21:35.400 they object to divine simplicity isn't integral parts. It's usually 360 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:39.119 going to be accidents, right, either the kind of accident 361 00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:41.920 which ionus would call extraneous accidents, which in us would 362 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.119 be things like color and shape and size and all 363 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:48.880 that stuff, or proper accidents, which for us would be 364 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:51.240 things like the powers of our soul, things which we 365 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:55.160 can't help about having given our nature. So why can't 366 00:21:55.200 --> 00:22:00.720 there be a multiplicity in God of those aquitness is 367 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:05.079 basic answer here. It's going to be, well, anytime that 368 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:08.759 you have a So there's a couple of different lines 369 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:09.200 of argument. 370 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:09.759 Here's why. 371 00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:15.759 Anytime that you have a subject and a feature of 372 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:19.680 that subject, and so there's me, and there's my color 373 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:26.200 that feature that accident makes the subject be in a 374 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:29.319 certain way. In other words, me. It's just as a 375 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:31.119 human being, I can be all sorts of different colors. 376 00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:34.839 I've got potency. And what the accident does is it 377 00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:39.279 actualizes that potency in a certain way, makes me be actually. 378 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:40.079 Tan or whatever. 379 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:43.759 And that would imply that what it does imply that 380 00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:49.200 what's being actualized is of itself potential. And so we 381 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:54.480 don't want to predicate accidents of certainly of tenness or 382 00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:56.880 color of God, because among other things, he doesn't. 383 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:57.119 Have a body. 384 00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:00.440 We don't want to predicate accidents of Wiz the more 385 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:04.400 justice of God either, because again, that would be to 386 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:07.759 imply that what God is the subject of which you're 387 00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:14.240 predicating these accidents lacked that actuality. And so the stimistic 388 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:16.960 claims that when we say that God is wise, I'm 389 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:21.559 not saying that there's an extra metaphysical reality which I'm 390 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:25.319 plugging into the metaphysical reality, which is God. I'm rather 391 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:28.519 saying that the metaphysical reality, which is God, I can 392 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:32.200 capture a facet of that if you like, by my 393 00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:38.279 word wise. And so that's one line of argument, and 394 00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:40.400 that argument would be that if you were to say 395 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:43.680 that God have an accident distinct from himself, then that 396 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:46.440 would mean that this accident was actualizing God, unless that 397 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:48.839 God was in potesy, unless that God could not be 398 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:52.400 really the first cause, and that's wouldn't be God. The 399 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:56.079 other line of argument would be, I call it the 400 00:23:56.359 --> 00:23:59.039 limiting line of argument. And so the idea would be this, 401 00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:01.079 once you gr and we'd have to do a couple 402 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:04.480 more steps to show this, but once you grant that 403 00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:08.559 God is the fullness of existence. 404 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:09.720 Right, So if you grant. 405 00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:12.680 The octus purus claim, and you also grant the EEPs 406 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:14.440 from esse claim, and I can defend that if you like. 407 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:19.440 Then you're saying that God is this pure fullness of 408 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:23.279 existence of its itself, and to saying that the pure 409 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:29.559 fullness of existence itself is something limited, which would be 410 00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:32.200 the case if I were to say that this pure 411 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.880 fullness of existence itself had this little do a hickey 412 00:24:35.960 --> 00:24:38.599 attached to it called wisdom, which was different from it 413 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:41.559 and different from these other attributes, then I would be saying, 414 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.599 then the infinite and the pure and the what is 415 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:52.319 pair se through itself is something limited and participated. And 416 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:53.480 Aquanas thinks. 417 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:54.359 That that's. 418 00:24:55.759 --> 00:25:00.119 Also in flat contradiction to the claim that God is 419 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:03.200 the first cause in which all other things participate, but 420 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:06.240 who himself participates in nothing. So I take it those 421 00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:12.079 are the two main lines of arguments against positing accidents 422 00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:16.279 really distinct from God in hearing in him. Now we 423 00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:17.680 would have to do a little bit of work to 424 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:22.240 pair what you're calling energies with accidents one more thing, 425 00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:25.799 and then we can get into the trying to poke 426 00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:31.200 at the difficulties in each other's positions. So there's you 427 00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:34.559 talked about operations in particular, the word and urgeia obviously 428 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:37.319 comes from the Greek word, which is most commonly used 429 00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:40.279 for operation. Rislotl uses it that way, although he also 430 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:43.119 uses it sometimes to talk about form if I'm not mistaken. 431 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:50.039 And so there's this question of whether these arguments against 432 00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:55.240 divine accidents would also apply to arguments sorry would also 433 00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:59.000 apply to divine actions. Aquinas seems to think that they do. 434 00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:02.759 So he claps actions as a kind of accident, and 435 00:26:02.839 --> 00:26:07.480 so he wants to rule out all actions from God 436 00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:10.240 for the same reason. Then he rules out accident distinct 437 00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:13.119 accidents like justice and wisdom and mercy and stuff like that. 438 00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:15.599 It's not clear to me, So I'm. 439 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:17.799 A bit of a heterodox Stonis. I'm putting my cards 440 00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:20.440 on the table here. It's not clear to me the 441 00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:25.119 actions and formal accidents should actually be considered on the 442 00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:27.880 same plane. I think you can make a principled case 443 00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:34.119 for allowing a real distinction of God's creature directed actions 444 00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:37.799 from himself in a way which you can't make a 445 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:42.160 good argument for real distinction of his attributes from himself. 446 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:44.160 And we can get into my crazy theories for why 447 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:50.480 that's the case later. Okay, So that's my basic argument 448 00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:53.519 for a Quintus's position, as I understand it, should I 449 00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:59.200 try to go through the various theological points that you're 450 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:00.640 bringing up, or do you want to speak to what 451 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:01.160 I just said. 452 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:06.640 Well, one thing I would say too in response is, 453 00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:10.400 at first, we do affirm that God is simple, every 454 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:16.559 Orthodox doctrine, every Eastern father and all the fathers Western 455 00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:20.519 fathers as well. Right, consider, we all agree on simplicity. 456 00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:22.000 So it's not really a question of do we teach 457 00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:24.960 divine suplicity, but what in fact do we mean by that? 458 00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:29.519 For us? You know, one of the key theological treatises 459 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:34.240 is on the Orthodox Faith, and of course Quita specifically 460 00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:39.440 deals with in his treatise on Divine Simplicity. He specifically 461 00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:43.759 deals with questions from John of Damascus right specifically on 462 00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:47.440 the essence synergy distinction. So sometimes in Orthodox theology, yes, 463 00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:51.200 operations inner gay that's actually used in the New Testament 464 00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:54.640 multiple times of divine activity, so it signifies the divine 465 00:27:54.680 --> 00:27:58.799 activity within time and space. But there's another important aspect 466 00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:01.480 that I should add to here that for Orthodox this 467 00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:04.960 actually solves a lot of the disputes between the East 468 00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:08.880 and the West over the filioque and trinitarian questions, which 469 00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:10.400 I'm not trying to get into that, but it is 470 00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:13.160 important to Germane to our discussion because we don't believe 471 00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:17.400 that that, you know, it's necessarily the case that there's 472 00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:25.319 only actions of God towards creation or eternity. Now, in 473 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:28.400 a sense, yes there could be. I mean, there are 474 00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:30.519 those two things. But I want I'm trying to say 475 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:33.680 is that we believe in a level of energetic manifestation. 476 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:36.839 So for example, when many of the church fathers talk 477 00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:41.880 about the Spirit being manifested eternally from the Sun, that 478 00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:45.279 is that our doctrine signal, which is laid out at 479 00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:48.759 the Council of Black Herne as eternal manifestation. We see 480 00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:53.519 that as different from hypostatic origin of the spirit. So 481 00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:55.680 the reason I say that is because it's not just 482 00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:58.920 the Spirit eternally manifesting the sun and the Spirit resting 483 00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:02.880 in the sun, as Gregor Palomas and Saint John Damascus say. 484 00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:06.319 It's John Adamascus who makes this distinction between eternal manifestation 485 00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:09.559 and hypostatic origin. This is why Saint John doesn't teach 486 00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:11.680 the philioquay, and in fact he rejects. He says that 487 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:17.200 there's no, there's no co cause or co producer of 488 00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:20.279 the Spirit other than the Father. The Son does eternally 489 00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:24.359 manifest the Spirit, and not just that the Son and 490 00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:27.720 the entire trinity manifests. In other words, all the trinitarian 491 00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:30.559 operations are from the Father through his Son and the Spirit, 492 00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:34.799 and this applies to eternal manifestation as well. So, for example, 493 00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:40.119 some attributes of God are appropriate to all eternity. God's 494 00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:43.880 love has eternally manifested for all eternity in that trinitarian way. 495 00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:49.680 God's God's goodness has eternally manifested that way. But some 496 00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:53.279 actions of God, as you said, are proper appropriate to 497 00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:56.799 time and space, to history. Saint Gregor Palamas and Saint 498 00:29:56.799 --> 00:30:00.359 Maximus make this distinction. They talk about how God's us as, 499 00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:02.920 for example, in relationship to Sodom and Gomor, that was 500 00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:06.200 something that occurred within time and space and passed away. 501 00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:09.480 Some of God's actions occur within time and space and 502 00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:12.680 continue on into eternity, for example, the creation of the church, 503 00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:15.400 setting up in the church, and so forth, the incarnation 504 00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:18.440 of Christ. These begin in time and space and they 505 00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:21.240 continue on into eternity. So not all actions of God 506 00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:26.160 are necessarily just related to the intertrinitarian life of God 507 00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:29.319 at intra or God at extra there's also for us 508 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:33.720 a very important other level of energetic manifestation, which is 509 00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:38.119 a helpful distinction and actually explains what is it oftentimes 510 00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:42.160 confused in Rumman Catholic teaching on the philioquay. So I 511 00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:44.519 just wanted to add that caveat, and also the second 512 00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:48.079 caveat that we don't actually accept act as purists. So 513 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:52.119 you began your opening statement by saying, well, if we 514 00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:55.960 accept the first cause argument and the actress purist position, 515 00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:58.839 then it does logically lead to these other things. And 516 00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:01.880 I would say, you're right, does We would agree with that. However, 517 00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:05.079 we just simply don't accept that starting point. And this 518 00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:07.519 is the thing that I think most Thomas don't question 519 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:09.960 is what if we just question that starting point? What 520 00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:13.839 if we just reject which starting point, the Plutonian and 521 00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:18.119 the Originistic doctrine, the Greek doctrine, the Hellenic doctrine of 522 00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:20.960 what simplicity is. For example, Botonis and in the Ideods 523 00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:25.240 he says God is an absolutely simple intellectual essence. God 524 00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:25.799 is So. 525 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:27.400 Sorry, hold on, because that's not the starting point. The 526 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:29.880 starting point is just the notion of God is first cause? 527 00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:30.799 Is that what you're attacking. 528 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:37.039 Well, what I'm saying is that you can reason back 529 00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:40.000 through to talking about a first cause. It doesn't matter 530 00:31:40.039 --> 00:31:42.720 whether you want. When we're talking about divine simplicity, the 531 00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:46.559 starting point is that that cause has to be absolutely simple. 532 00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:49.720 Yeah, that's not the starting point. The starting point is 533 00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:51.119 that there has to be a first cause, and we 534 00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:55.359 prove from or we try from the notion. 535 00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:59.240 Okay, but we have, but we have a completely different 536 00:31:59.319 --> 00:32:02.519 order theologia. We don't do that kind of a reasoning 537 00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:05.680 back to the first cause. That's an Aristotelian doctrine. Now, 538 00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:08.559 church fathers talk about a first cause, but we don't 539 00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:12.640 talk about reasoning back to the first cause. In order 540 00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:15.599 to get to a definition of God as simple and 541 00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:18.759 then lay later by SuperNature, we tackle on the person's 542 00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:21.920 orthodoxiology is completely reversed. It's the other way around. We 543 00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:25.680 start with revelation from God and Christ, and that's how 544 00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:29.720 we don't know naturally about God being a first cause 545 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:34.039 and then later God having three persons. It begins with 546 00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:36.799 a personal revelation of I am that I am. This 547 00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:40.599 is why Saint Gregory Palamas says to Barlem God doesn't 548 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:43.559 say I am existent being, I am the super essence. 549 00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:46.839 He says I am he. For example, when Saint Basil 550 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:51.200 argues against Eunomius, and he specifically argues on the question 551 00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:54.559 of what the one is till on, he argues that 552 00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:58.000 it is a personal plane, it is about hypostasis. It 553 00:32:58.039 --> 00:33:00.559 is I am he. It is not I am essence, 554 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:03.200 I am super being, I am whatever. It's I am he. 555 00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:06.119 So even I know that you want to say, I'm 556 00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:09.519 not starting with super essence, I'm starting with first reasoning 557 00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:14.359 back to first cause, and then predicating about analogically about 558 00:33:14.359 --> 00:33:16.440 what this essence is. What I'm saying to you is 559 00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:18.839 that we just reject that whole process, the hope, the 560 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:21.880 whole hold on. So there could be two things here. 561 00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:24.200 So maybe you're saying that you just don't think that 562 00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:27.200 any proofs for Gaza distance work. Is that what you're planning. 563 00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:31.200 No, we believe in the transcendental argument as most compatible 564 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:34.240 with orthodox theology. Saint John Damascus makes a transcendental argument. 565 00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:38.200 But yes, I do believe the classical arguments don't work 566 00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:41.880 very well. Precisely before this, well, we got precisely because 567 00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:44.359 of what, because of this issue that we're talking about. 568 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:46.839 You mean they don't work because they get you in 569 00:33:46.839 --> 00:33:47.759 no place you don't want to be. 570 00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:51.599 No, I mean I argue with atheists all the time 571 00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:55.759 and refute them quite quite the frequently because of the 572 00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:57.960 transcendental argument. So it doesn't leave me to a place. 573 00:33:58.119 --> 00:33:59.839 No. I don't mean they like you don't want to 574 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:01.559 I don't want there to be a guy. What I 575 00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:04.559 meant is you don't like the five ways, for example, 576 00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:06.240 because they would imply divine simplicity. 577 00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:09.880 Is that what you're saying, they are bad arguments based 578 00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:14.519 on classical foundationals epistemology and orthodox anthropology doesn't make sense 579 00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:16.599 with classical foundationalistemology. 580 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:20.079 Okay, So I think I would like for this discussion 581 00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:22.280 to be fruitful. I think we should do maybe two things. 582 00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:24.280 Maybe this is a rabbit hole, so tell me if 583 00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:27.199 you don't want to do this. But so on the 584 00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:29.920 one hand, I think it would be good to probe 585 00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:33.760 this five ways issue a bit because I agree with 586 00:34:33.800 --> 00:34:37.320 you that if we if we think that those are bunk, 587 00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:41.599 then your arguments for divine simplicity are going to be 588 00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:44.800 take short of their foundation. But here's this other thing. 589 00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:47.320 So it's right. 590 00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:50.559 So let me grant you for a minute that they're 591 00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:53.119 a starting point as a Christian should be a revelation 592 00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:58.000 rather than natural reason, start from God speaking in the 593 00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:03.760 burning bush, rather than what we can know by the revelation, 594 00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:08.679 which is written in the world around us. Very Saint Paul, right, 595 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:12.960 granting that, surely you would still want to maintain that 596 00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:16.960 whatever the God of revelation is, it's not caused, and 597 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:19.519 it's the sort of thing whose explanation you don't have 598 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:20.360 to seek. 599 00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:23.239 Right, sure, I mean Eastern fathers will will say at 600 00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:26.039 times God is first cause. Saint JOHNA. Mascus says that 601 00:35:26.199 --> 00:35:26.719 I'm sure. 602 00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:30.480 And so what I'm trying to do, and what I 603 00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:34.639 think divine simplicity does is it's a logical consequence of 604 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:39.480 a coherent claim that God is the first cause. And 605 00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:41.880 so if you don't think that it follows from the 606 00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:44.039 claim that God is the first cause, I would be 607 00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:47.800 interested to see where where you think that argument comes apart. 608 00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:50.760 I can restate, why does the first cause have to 609 00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:51.880 be absolutely simple? 610 00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:56.519 Why can't there be compositive first cause? I mean, there's 611 00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:58.559 no In other words, I have to accept a whole 612 00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:02.119 bunch of other life philosophical. 613 00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:04.440 Of course, And I'm trying to figure out which of 614 00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:08.360 those premises you're attacking. So the premising question would be 615 00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:12.880 whenever you have two things that are right. So when 616 00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:16.039 I have an attribute, but let's just can we go 617 00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:18.000 with that as an example of composition. 618 00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:22.280 Okay, but I go ahead? 619 00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:26.280 Okay, Right, So when I have an attribute, right again, 620 00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:33.039 that's going to mean that the subject, according to the 621 00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:37.960 framework I'm using, the subject has been actualized by this 622 00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:42.159 distinct reality is inhering in it. And so it seems 623 00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:47.000 as though if you're going to grant that the composition 624 00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:49.760 of subject and accident can be analyzed into a relation 625 00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:53.239 to potency and act, and you want to maintain that 626 00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:58.039 God is not does not have potency, then you're going 627 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:01.960 to have to grant a god you can accident. Now 628 00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:03.639 there are more prevacies there. 629 00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:07.119 So go ahead, but we don't maintain that again, you 630 00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.360 don't maintain which part we don't believe that God is 631 00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:10.599 pure act with no potential. 632 00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:15.719 Okay, So let's rewind then, So it seems as the 633 00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:19.599 when I look around at ordinary things, right, and I 634 00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:22.800 see that I'm staring at the coffee mug on my desk, 635 00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:27.039 I see that it is the certain shape, and I 636 00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:30.360 can ask why, right, And that's a good question to ask. 637 00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:34.199 It doesn't explain itself. It didn't have that shape and 638 00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:36.320 that color just because of the nature of the matter 639 00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:37.119 that makes it up. 640 00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:39.159 Right, So I need to. 641 00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:42.519 Seek outside of the cup for the reason why the 642 00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:45.880 cup is and why it is this way. And it's 643 00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:47.840 precisely because the cup didn't have. 644 00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:49.760 To be this way. Yeah, I mean, I understand. 645 00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:52.320 So in other words, whenever you have you have is 646 00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:56.000 which didn't have to be this way, and whenever you've 647 00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.920 got something which is this way but didn't have to 648 00:37:57.920 --> 00:37:59.800 be this way, you need to ask why. 649 00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:01.239 Okay. 650 00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:03.360 So I'm saying that if you say that God has potency, 651 00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:10.039 it's actualized, then you need to explain why that happened. 652 00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:12.760 Sure. Well, the person I would say is that if 653 00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:16.719 I adopt the tonistic doctrine of what simplicity is, and 654 00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:20.199 if identify God's actions with his essence, then it's very 655 00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:22.800 difficult to see. And I would say, you can't argue 656 00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:25.679 that creation is actually a free action of God. Now, 657 00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:33.360 all historic orthodoxyology hold on because create the act of 658 00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:37.920 creating the world. I know, I know this objection quite well. 659 00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:40.519 More to this objection, which I bet you don't know, 660 00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:43.599 which is that it's not just a matter of whether 661 00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:47.840 or not the action of creating was constrained by God's essence, 662 00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:51.079 because they're identified. There's also a question of the divine exemplars. 663 00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:56.119 This is because it's multiple times in the Suma identifies 664 00:38:56.159 --> 00:39:00.800 the exemplars, the ideas behind the created things with the essence. Now, 665 00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:04.840 if creation is based on the exemplars, then creation it's 666 00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:08.000 hard to see how it's not also just as unchanging 667 00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:11.960 and eternal as the exemplars upon which they're based. And 668 00:39:12.119 --> 00:39:15.400 this is why worthodoxynology. That's why Saint Maximus and Gregory, 669 00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:18.599 they don't identify the ideas or the logo with the 670 00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:20.679 essence of God. They are the things around the God, 671 00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:24.400 around God. This is why Dionysius the Areopagite, who Aquinas 672 00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:28.000 cites multiple times that makes the distinction between essence and energy. 673 00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:30.280 This is why Dionysius says that you can never get 674 00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:33.920 to God's essence, and you can't even via negativa reason 675 00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:37.000 about God's essence. It's not just a question of unifical 676 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:42.440 or analogical. Analogical analogical Another questions which we should say 677 00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:45.880 for a little bit, but theological doesn't work either because 678 00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:48.920 of the doctrine of divind's implicity as stated by Quinus. 679 00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:53.360 Yeah, okay, so first thing, like, I would like to 680 00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:55.480 keep the ARGUMENTI I just gave separate from that. 681 00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:55.719 Right. 682 00:39:55.760 --> 00:39:57.679 So there's there's two things that both of us need 683 00:39:57.719 --> 00:39:59.519 to do in this debate, right. So one of them 684 00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:02.800 is make the case for why our position has to be, 685 00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:04.440 why we think it has to be the way it is, 686 00:40:04.840 --> 00:40:07.119 and the other one is to defend against objections to it. 687 00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:07.920 Right. 688 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:12.119 So when I'm giving you the potency act argument, right, 689 00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:13.840 that's why I think it has to be the case. 690 00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:15.760 And then I need to defend against objections like and 691 00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:17.119 then how do you make sense of freedom? 692 00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:18.880 Right? So likewise, but. 693 00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:25.960 Energy essence, right, you're saying you need to One of 694 00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:27.719 the reasons why you believe in the energy is essence 695 00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:30.519 distinction is because you think it's necessary to say a 696 00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:31.360 guard divine freedom. 697 00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:32.320 And then you have. 698 00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:36.679 As an objection. Right, So let's let's just keep these 699 00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:37.719 two different things separate. 700 00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:40.559 I believe it because it's revealed, and I also believe 701 00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:43.760 my view of what God is in terms of simplicity 702 00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:46.960 because it's revealed. I don't begin by looking at the 703 00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:49.719 composition of created things like coffee cups and try to 704 00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:51.960 reason back and say, well, there must have been a 705 00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:55.679 first simple cause that's not like a composite coffee cup. 706 00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:58.599 In fact, I don't have to go that route. And 707 00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:01.079 when you look at the early Church Fathers, when you 708 00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:03.760 look at the way Scripture talks about these things, it's 709 00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:06.760 a revealed doctrine, both of the persons and of what 710 00:41:06.920 --> 00:41:09.159 God's nature is, which we don't know what it is, 711 00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:11.880 of course, So no, we don't begin. As Paul says 712 00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:14.679 in Act seventeen, the divine ussia is not like any 713 00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:16.440 created thing. What he's arguing with you. 714 00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:18.760 Don't need to argue with me about that. That's actually 715 00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:21.320 kind of both of our points. So anyway, keep going. 716 00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:24.639 But but a Thomas also wants his cake and to 717 00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:27.400 eat it too, because he also says that this absolutely 718 00:41:27.400 --> 00:41:32.119 simple divine essence does that there is an analogical similarity 719 00:41:32.199 --> 00:41:36.679 between what's in this essence, the divine exemplars and the 720 00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:39.760 created forms, and the creative forms are nothing like an 721 00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:43.039 absolutely simple essence. So there's a divide where there's not 722 00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:46.199 a bridge between this absolutely simple essence because there's no 723 00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:50.440 uncreated grace, there's no bridge between the absolutely simple uncreated 724 00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:53.760 and the created, and they share no similarity. Then there's 725 00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:57.920 no basis for the analogia analogia innthis or the participation 726 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:00.760 in God in terms of redemption. It's all created grace, 727 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:05.199 it's all it's all bridged off by by Thomas's doctrine 728 00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:08.239 of simplicity. Now I recognize again that he wants there 729 00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:11.239 to be distinctions of persons. He wants there to be 730 00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:13.880 God acting within time and space in terms of the 731 00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:17.679 incarnation the logos somehow entering into a mode of being 732 00:42:17.719 --> 00:42:20.079 that the Father and the Spirit do not. But our 733 00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:23.519 contention is that in the system as a whole, with 734 00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:27.480 all Thomas's claims and presuppositions, it doesn't work. It's contradictory. 735 00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:30.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, let's let's keep So we've got 736 00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:33.079 three issues on the table as of this moment. Right. 737 00:42:33.079 --> 00:42:35.960 So we've got, on the one hand, my question, which 738 00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:38.920 you haven't answered yet, which is, how is it why 739 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:42.440 is it that a compositive potency in act wouldn't need 740 00:42:42.440 --> 00:42:45.920 an explanation? You have the second question, which is you've 741 00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:48.360 addressed to me which I haven't answered yet, which is 742 00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:50.559 how it would be possible for an absolutely simple God 743 00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:53.599 to be free. And then there's the third question, which 744 00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:56.800 isn't a pistological question, which is if we don't if 745 00:42:56.800 --> 00:43:01.960 we grant that the divine essence is transcendent, what what 746 00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:05.719 are our predicates lashing onto? Right? And that's the problem 747 00:43:05.719 --> 00:43:09.000 with analogy. And so those are I think three separate issues. 748 00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:09.960 We should probably go over. 749 00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:12.039 Them one by one. Okay, So the first one is 750 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:14.199 I've already answered it, and I said, first of all, 751 00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:17.480 we don't accept that God is pure act with no potentiality. 752 00:43:19.079 --> 00:43:21.599 That's not an answer though, right, because the way you 753 00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:25.000 need to explain to me is why is it? 754 00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:30.039 So you're it is an answer because in Christian theology, 755 00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:33.559 God is not explained in that way. He's revealed a 756 00:43:33.559 --> 00:43:35.719 certain way. So what my answer to you is that 757 00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:39.039 we don't have an answer to to acquine us to 758 00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:44.199 Aristotle's dilemma of accidents and substance, because that's not how 759 00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:47.039 we look at and view God. We don't use that system. 760 00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:50.800 It wasn't used for the first thousand years. So I 761 00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:53.079 don't have to answer that question because it's not applicable 762 00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:56.320 to how we know who God is. We know who 763 00:43:56.400 --> 00:44:02.800 God is through revelation and through participating in that field life. Well, 764 00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:03.760 we're all on board with. 765 00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:10.320 Saying that revelation is true, right, but the question is right. 766 00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:14.159 So I would challenge you to find examples in the 767 00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:17.360 scripture of saying that God is in potency to attributes 768 00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:20.400 or stuff like that. 769 00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:24.159 You keep asking me, what where can I have as 770 00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:26.440 I do at least you keep asking me to use 771 00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:30.960 Arisitilian terminology and classifications and categories, and I just told 772 00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:32.719 you that we don't, and they're not in scripture, and 773 00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:34.239 they're not in the in the first thousand years of 774 00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:37.039 the church farm generally speaking. 775 00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:39.360 The thing that you had said first was that you're 776 00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:43.840 fine with saying that God has potency least. 777 00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:46.760 I was trying to speak to your terminology, for example, 778 00:44:46.840 --> 00:44:49.400 in Bradshaw's essays in his book, where he says that 779 00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:52.840 if we follow through what's saying that God has no potentiality, 780 00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:55.639 it's difficult to see how there's a free act of creation. 781 00:44:56.320 --> 00:44:59.760 But I'm moving the step back further and I'm saying 782 00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:04.159 we reject your doctrine of what simplicity is because it's 783 00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:05.920 direct from origin and. 784 00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:10.039 I'm not interested in arguments from authority or where claims 785 00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:10.519 came from. 786 00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:16.800 What I'm trying to for a thousand years, right matters. 787 00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:19.119 Of course, it matters where they came from. If you're 788 00:45:19.159 --> 00:45:22.760 if you're just rehashing Platinus, then that's a problem and 789 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:24.800 a point does that? No? 790 00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:27.480 No, I mean, look what we're trying to do, or 791 00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:29.039 at least here's what I'm trying to do. Right, So 792 00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:32.360 we've got we've got a revelation. We know by revelation 793 00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:34.960 a couple of things. We know more than a couple. 794 00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:37.519 We know that there is one God, and that he 795 00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:40.719 is the first cause of all things, that he's three persons, 796 00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:42.920 and that the second person became man and died. 797 00:45:42.920 --> 00:45:43.880 For our sense, I mean. 798 00:45:47.360 --> 00:45:50.559 Matters if something is directly contained in revelation. But like 799 00:45:51.079 --> 00:45:55.960 what where like these distinctions came from. I'm not sure why. 800 00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:59.599 That's germane right, So to say that Platinus originated this 801 00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:02.760 way understanding what it means to be the first one cool. 802 00:46:03.880 --> 00:46:09.000 So, soology it does matter. It does matter because it's 803 00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:11.079 the doctrine of the Heretics and the doctrine of the 804 00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:13.599 Greeks that the early councils rejected. So every time the 805 00:46:13.639 --> 00:46:19.079 Christological controversies happen. They argue against guys who were influenced 806 00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:21.480 by Greek thought. This actually comes up in the writings 807 00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:23.480 of the Fathers and in the Councils. They say, you've 808 00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:26.559 been influenced by the Hellenic ideas of what simplicity is. 809 00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:30.360 So if Plotinus talks about simplicity in a certain way 810 00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:34.000 and in which it identifies all the names or attributes 811 00:46:34.039 --> 00:46:36.800 of the one with the essence of the one, and 812 00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:39.679 then when you know Meius says the exact same thing. 813 00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:41.800 In Saint Gregor Nissa writes an a hit or page 814 00:46:41.800 --> 00:46:45.519 book against Eunomius and makes this very argument, saying, Hey, Youunomius, 815 00:46:45.559 --> 00:46:49.119 you got your argument from Plotinus. I would say that 816 00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:52.599 I can just simply repeat that same argument against you, 817 00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:56.679 because a Quitas rehashes the same argument from Eunomius and 818 00:46:56.719 --> 00:47:00.239 from Plotinus. So absolutely tell. 819 00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:04.079 Me, though, is that somebody who, by dint of using 820 00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:07.079 reason alone, with no help from revelation says some true 821 00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:11.320 things and some false things. No, that's not You who 822 00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:14.119 have the revelation should discard the baby with the bathwater. 823 00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:18.320 That's what I'm hearing. Like what I say, know, most. 824 00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:22.159 Of these, most of these were fine with heedagogy. So 825 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:24.039 you're making a strong man. I didn't say that we 826 00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:27.440 have to throw out all philosophy or anything a question. 827 00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:30.960 If it's the case, the fact that Platinus said something 828 00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:32.440 means that it's wrong. 829 00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:36.880 That's the origin of this proposition. Okay, do you do 830 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:42.000 you understand big bid? Do you understand dialectics? Right? So, 831 00:47:42.039 --> 00:47:44.920 when the early church fathers are arguing against somebody like Celsus, 832 00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:48.000 or whether they're arguing against Arius, or whether they're arguing 833 00:47:48.039 --> 00:47:52.639 against Eunomius, they often talked about how these heretics employed dialectics. 834 00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:56.840 And so, for example, it's Platonis who pioneered this, right, 835 00:47:56.920 --> 00:47:59.599 it doesn't matter whether it's Platinus who said it or 836 00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:02.840 whether it's Nestorius who said it. The same heresy is 837 00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:05.719 being restated. Who cares who said it if it's wrong 838 00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:08.079 in principle, So I'll grant you that, yes, it doesn't 839 00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:10.639 matter ultimately who said it. But I'm saying that when 840 00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:13.159 the Church fathers argue against these things, they absolutely are 841 00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:16.400 concerned with the origin or the wellspring of where these 842 00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:19.199 errors come from. And I'm telling you that we reject 843 00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:22.599 the Greek philosophical origin of how we understand what simplicity 844 00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:25.599 is and we actually just go to what's revealed. That's 845 00:48:25.599 --> 00:48:28.079 what the Church fathers do. That that's why they reject 846 00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:32.119 Hellenic dialectics every time there's a council, and particularly the 847 00:48:32.119 --> 00:48:32.639 sixth count. 848 00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:35.519 My only point is, I'm not going to accept it 849 00:48:35.599 --> 00:48:39.480 as a valid accounter argument that you say that this 850 00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:43.280 principle or whatever was articulated by Platinus, and Platinus tell 851 00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:45.920 some heretical views, therefore they must not hold this principle. 852 00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:49.880 That's the argument. The argument is, your doctor of simplicity 853 00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:53.559 is the same as Platinass, and it's heretical man. 854 00:48:53.400 --> 00:48:55.599 And it's certainly not the same as Platonis is because 855 00:48:55.639 --> 00:48:59.559 I hold the trinity right, the emination. 856 00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:04.840 Of new from the already I already had one when 857 00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:07.519 I said that, the question wasn't whether Thomas also said 858 00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:11.639 correct things elsewhere, but whether the doctrine simplicity itself wasn't 859 00:49:11.639 --> 00:49:14.440 the exact same as what Platina said. And when Platina 860 00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:17.639 says that all the acts and names and operations of 861 00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:20.199 God or the One are exactly the same as the essence, 862 00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:22.639 that's the same as what Aquina says. And so when 863 00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:25.199 This is why Origin was led to say that the 864 00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:28.599 son is a different subsistence or a different kind of 865 00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:33.559 created subsistence, different from the Father, because he identified the 866 00:49:33.639 --> 00:49:36.119 hypostasis of the father with the essence. This is why 867 00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:41.159 you Nomius identified the father with unoriginate and with absolutely 868 00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:41.880 simple essence. 869 00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:44.119 In other words, you're saying that you think that the 870 00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:48.559 platinum doctrine Platita thinks that the one is completely simple. Okay, fine, 871 00:49:48.679 --> 00:49:51.920 and that this one means can only be one hypostasis 872 00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:53.960 in itself. It can't be three that have the nature 873 00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:55.239 of the one. If you could even speak of the 874 00:49:55.280 --> 00:49:57.599 nature of the one, that you probably can't. For him, 875 00:49:58.159 --> 00:50:00.800 and Thomas wants to hold that that same doctrine of 876 00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:05.719 divine simplicity, you say, but with but also persons, correct? 877 00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:09.559 Is that right? Yes, it's the same philosophical Greek idea 878 00:50:09.559 --> 00:50:12.679 of what simplicity is, and then also the idea of 879 00:50:12.760 --> 00:50:15.480 let's also tack on persons. Let's use the Greeks and 880 00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:17.920 so far as they were good at talking about simplicity 881 00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:21.199 and the monad, and let's tack on three hypostasies. And 882 00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:24.360 the argument is that given what's said in Greek and 883 00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:27.000 Hellenic thought generally that I'm talking about here about what 884 00:50:27.079 --> 00:50:30.639 simplicity is. It doesn't there's no place for real distinctions 885 00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:33.159 in the persons. This is why it leads to modalism. 886 00:50:33.559 --> 00:50:34.360 This is why. 887 00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:38.760 Do you want to get to Aquinas's trinitarian theory then, 888 00:50:38.760 --> 00:50:40.440 because that would be our next step. I'm still going 889 00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:42.519 to say, I'm like, I would like to go back 890 00:50:42.519 --> 00:50:47.280 to the problem of whether or not you're willing to 891 00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:49.719 say that God has potency, So I'm going to take 892 00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:51.119 that as just bracketed for the moment. Do you want 893 00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:52.239 to go to trinity instead? 894 00:50:53.079 --> 00:50:56.039 I mean, if you listen to what I say, right, 895 00:50:56.079 --> 00:50:59.199 So when I said yes, if you want to use 896 00:50:59.239 --> 00:51:03.360 your language and say does God have potency, then I 897 00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:06.559 would say in the sense of him not having to create, 898 00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:08.880 but yet he chose to create. That is. 899 00:51:11.079 --> 00:51:13.239 So, well, this is just a verbal that part is 900 00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:16.360 just a verbal distinction, right. So Aquinas constantly uses this 901 00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:20.159 distinction between active and passive potency, and the only kind 902 00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:22.760 of which he's going to deny of God as passive potency, 903 00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:24.840 which is the kind of has. 904 00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:27.239 Let's just we can cut past all this and just 905 00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:29.719 make it very clear that that Aquinas says that all 906 00:51:29.719 --> 00:51:32.880 the distinctions and the attributes of God are notional. They're 907 00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:36.119 not real that they're just conceptual distinctions that we make. 908 00:51:36.679 --> 00:51:39.039 And so God's love is the exact same as the 909 00:51:39.159 --> 00:51:41.599 essence is the exact same as the Foregnoledge is exact 910 00:51:41.639 --> 00:51:47.599 same as the act of creating. That's ultimately foolish. I 911 00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:49.079 agree with the first part of the claim. 912 00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:52.559 Right, So he does say that God's essence is the 913 00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:54.760 same as his active loving himself, which is the same 914 00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:56.599 as his active knowing himself. It is the same as 915 00:51:56.599 --> 00:51:58.960 his active existence, which is the same as the act 916 00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:02.159 by which He makes all things that it's. 917 00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:04.119 Also the attributes that are the same as the essence 918 00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:04.440 of God. 919 00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:12.639 Sure, so then you were talking about we're trying we're 920 00:52:12.639 --> 00:52:16.119 talking about acting passive power. Right, So obviously right, God 921 00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:20.119 can make things that he hasn't made. But for a 922 00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:23.679 quintas that doesn't imply that God is. What we need 923 00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:26.679 to avoid is saying that God is receiving something or 924 00:52:26.760 --> 00:52:31.079 being actualized by something which he did not have to 925 00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:34.039 receive or be actualized by. Right, Does that Does that 926 00:52:34.039 --> 00:52:36.039 make sense? Raison, What we're trying to do is exclude 927 00:52:37.519 --> 00:52:40.880 receptivity or passivity from the divine nature? 928 00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:44.719 Right? 929 00:52:45.199 --> 00:52:46.639 Is that a goal that you're okay with? Or do 930 00:52:46.719 --> 00:52:47.800 I need to defend that one? 931 00:52:48.119 --> 00:52:50.800 I don't think that that any Orthodox person would say 932 00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:54.280 that God's that God needed anything in his nature or 933 00:52:54.280 --> 00:52:55.079 anything like that. 934 00:52:55.079 --> 00:52:58.480 That that that's when I say that God doesn't have potency. 935 00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:01.199 That's just what I mean. Right, So the cup is 936 00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:03.760 in potency to this shape or that shape by virtue, 937 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:07.679 but it's matter, and so it's being actualized by that, 938 00:53:07.719 --> 00:53:10.119 and so the cups needed some sort of shape. 939 00:53:10.239 --> 00:53:10.760 That's what we. 940 00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:14.199 Deny when we deny that God has potency and Aristotelian terms, 941 00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:15.760 if you want, if you if you like the word 942 00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:20.440 need better or open slot or whatever, that's fine, same idea. Okay, 943 00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:23.199 So are we okay? Can we then agree that God 944 00:53:23.239 --> 00:53:23.559 doesn't have. 945 00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:27.440 Potent as far as I can tell, yes, that makes sense. Okay. 946 00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:33.000 So that's all that we're trying to maintain when we 947 00:53:33.039 --> 00:53:37.679 hold that God is entirely simple. We don't want anything 948 00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:40.719 in God which would fill a slot. 949 00:53:41.440 --> 00:53:44.440 That's really that's not all. 950 00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:48.719 That that's our reason for holding it. Okay. So if 951 00:53:48.760 --> 00:53:50.440 you can show what you need to do, and this 952 00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:52.159 is what I tried to do, in my own DISSERTATIONE. Right, 953 00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:54.400 So I'm arguing with you, but I'm actually at least 954 00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:56.440 half on your side. So we get to that part 955 00:53:56.440 --> 00:53:59.920 in a minute. But what you would need to do 956 00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:06.199 is to explain why the kind of multiplicity that you 957 00:54:06.239 --> 00:54:11.679 want doesn't involve actualizing or filling a need or an 958 00:54:11.679 --> 00:54:14.519 open slot or whatever in the divinity. 959 00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:16.599 Yeah, I would, just because that makes sense, I would 960 00:54:16.639 --> 00:54:22.320 throw out of all these categories, big part I would 961 00:54:22.360 --> 00:54:23.320 throw out. 962 00:54:27.119 --> 00:54:32.880 Well, surely though, you're going to agree now, No, you can. 963 00:54:32.920 --> 00:54:35.039 What you can what you can do is you can 964 00:54:35.079 --> 00:54:38.880 tell me that these things right, So give me an 965 00:54:38.920 --> 00:54:42.840 example of multiplicity, say the divine persons. You can say us, well, agree, 966 00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:46.960 of course, but this multiplicity does not involve an actualization 967 00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:48.599 of the divine essence, and so we can allow it. 968 00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:49.960 Right. 969 00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:52.559 But what you need to do is for every case 970 00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:55.920 of an energy that you describe, you need to explain 971 00:54:55.960 --> 00:55:00.559 to the temist why this doesn't count as right, Why this, 972 00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:03.119 why you don't need these categories right, why they don't apply. 973 00:55:03.880 --> 00:55:06.320 I think the onness is on you. 974 00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:08.880 No, it's not, because, first of all, there is a 975 00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:13.760 thousand years of the Church using categories and explanations in 976 00:55:13.880 --> 00:55:17.480 terms that are not Tomistic and are not Aristotelian. So 977 00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:20.440 we already have like the use of this. So it's 978 00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:23.039 the onus is not on me, but actually on in this. 979 00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:25.920 Of course, you know, it was very controversial when when 980 00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:30.880 Tomism began to adopt the restilianism. Uh so, And ultimately, yes, 981 00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:32.880 it's not you know so much about this or that 982 00:55:32.920 --> 00:55:38.519 specific term, but it's about the the almost scientistic approach 983 00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:42.360 to dissecting God in this way and not looking at 984 00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:46.719 how the revelation of what hoopostasis is in the New 985 00:55:46.760 --> 00:55:49.760 Testament or what innergaia is as opposed to fusis in 986 00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:50.519 the New Testament. 987 00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:54.079 Right, I don't know what you mean by scientistic right, 988 00:55:54.079 --> 00:55:56.760 what we've gotten as the data of revelation, right, we've. 989 00:55:56.559 --> 00:56:00.280 Got it's not data. It's it's not natural revelation as 990 00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:03.559 a science. Theology is not the queen of science. That's 991 00:56:03.599 --> 00:56:08.760 what I mean by scientistic. Right. It's about it's about understanding, 992 00:56:08.840 --> 00:56:15.599 yes it is, but that means that understanding comes through 993 00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:18.440 the direct experience of God, not through the intellect. 994 00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:21.840 Well, okay, so if you want to say that the 995 00:56:21.880 --> 00:56:25.239 only proper knowledge of God is by mystical vision and 996 00:56:25.280 --> 00:56:27.079 then we're just wasting our time talking about him. 997 00:56:27.280 --> 00:56:31.880 Right, that's probably true. I believe in an analogia that's 998 00:56:31.960 --> 00:56:35.239 applicable to the energies. Right, so the logoi to read, 999 00:56:35.239 --> 00:56:38.280 say Maximus, the doctrine of the logoi, which he identifies 1000 00:56:38.320 --> 00:56:43.159 as divine ideas. Uh, they're uncreated energies, they're not the 1001 00:56:43.280 --> 00:56:46.039 essence of God. And so again what you notice is 1002 00:56:46.039 --> 00:56:50.079 that what distinguishes the Orthodox position consistently across the board. 1003 00:56:50.079 --> 00:56:51.800 That's why I started out talking about how we have 1004 00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:55.039 a different anthropology, we have a different triology, we have 1005 00:56:55.079 --> 00:56:58.679 a different doctrine of Christology, and a different eschatology and 1006 00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:00.880 a different ecclesiology. Is cause of the U S and 1007 00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:03.559 S energy distinction and all these different points. So it's 1008 00:57:03.559 --> 00:57:05.800 a whole system. It's it's holistic in our U. 1009 00:57:06.639 --> 00:57:08.840 I understand that. But so let me just try to 1010 00:57:08.880 --> 00:57:10.960 plug it in. Since your we're back to energy, let's 1011 00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:15.960 just try to plug in that term energy into the 1012 00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:19.039 question I was asking you. All Right, so what if 1013 00:57:19.039 --> 00:57:21.159 Thomas is going to be worried about when he hears 1014 00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:27.079 you're talking about divine energies. Is the question of whether 1015 00:57:27.199 --> 00:57:31.280 these energies would be such as to actualize the divinessence. 1016 00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:33.480 I assume correct me if I'm wrong. I think you 1017 00:57:33.480 --> 00:57:36.079 would want to say that, in fact, they don't actualize 1018 00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:40.079 the divine essence, and that they're not received by or 1019 00:57:41.199 --> 00:57:45.320 that they're not principles of God's existence or God's nature 1020 00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:47.320 at all. What I'm trying to tell you that you 1021 00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:50.119 have anything God? Is that fair statement? 1022 00:57:50.960 --> 00:57:53.000 Yeah? But what I've been trying to convey is that 1023 00:57:53.039 --> 00:57:55.639 you have to reject homism. Right, this whole system is 1024 00:57:55.639 --> 00:57:58.559 a problem. So because you are trying to force me 1025 00:57:58.639 --> 00:58:01.480 into the risk of to you categor worries, I'm trying to. 1026 00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:05.239 Tell you an It's just this is not like Aristotle. 1027 00:58:05.920 --> 00:58:09.840 Say that and not right, and that's something is necessary 1028 00:58:09.880 --> 00:58:11.679 or contingent. This is not Aristotle. 1029 00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:14.880 This is just about you were talking about in potentia 1030 00:58:14.920 --> 00:58:16.440 and actuality and active through. 1031 00:58:17.360 --> 00:58:20.920 It just means can be. It's what can be. That's 1032 00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:24.960 all it is. I know that's not Aristotle's copyright. 1033 00:58:26.199 --> 00:58:28.559 I know what contingency means. What I'm telling you is 1034 00:58:28.599 --> 00:58:31.000 that you are a Tomas and these categories that you're 1035 00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:34.239 talking about did come from Aristotle, and they were introduced 1036 00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:38.760 by Uh. You know Thomas and his his teacher Albert Magnus, 1037 00:58:38.800 --> 00:58:41.159 they were not the norm for the first thousand years 1038 00:58:41.159 --> 00:58:43.480 of the church. Now why weren't they the norm? Precisely 1039 00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:46.679 because of the questions. 1040 00:58:47.199 --> 00:58:51.000 And we're not trying to have an argument about terms here, 1041 00:58:51.719 --> 00:58:53.000 You're you're saying the. 1042 00:58:53.119 --> 00:58:58.079 Part we are because because we reject your doctrine of simplicity. Doctrine, 1043 00:58:58.199 --> 00:59:02.639 don't can you not see that, Helen doc simplicity can 1044 00:59:02.679 --> 00:59:03.280 be questioned. 1045 00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:07.280 Of course you can be questioned, but I'm saying that 1046 00:59:07.320 --> 00:59:09.960 this doctrine of simplicity arrest like you can be questioned, 1047 00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:15.639 I don't think that it can be successfully debunked. But okay, 1048 00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:17.000 well reason. 1049 00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:19.559 So there's a whole there's a whole, eight hundred page 1050 00:59:19.599 --> 00:59:22.760 book that debunks it, written by Saint Grego. There are 1051 00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:27.440 lots of books that try to that's another the Doctor 1052 00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:30.440 of the Church and he and he shows that Eunomianism 1053 00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:33.039 is modalism based on it's his doctrine simplicity. It's the 1054 00:59:33.039 --> 00:59:35.519 exact same doctor simplicity. 1055 00:59:36.039 --> 00:59:39.159 Hold on, we're not here to just trade claims. You're 1056 00:59:39.199 --> 00:59:41.119 wrong or you're wrong, right. We're here to try to 1057 00:59:41.119 --> 00:59:43.760 evaluate arguments as best as we can, right, And so 1058 00:59:44.679 --> 00:59:46.280 the argument that. 1059 00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:50.599 That Aquinas's doctrine simplicity is exact same as eunomius doctrine simplicity, 1060 00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:56.480 and although the conclusions are different, Eunomius is refuted in 1061 00:59:56.519 --> 00:59:59.159 eight hundred pages by Saint Gregoranissa and the whole argument 1062 00:59:59.239 --> 01:00:02.199 is based on essence, energy distinction, as well as other things. 1063 01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:05.840 Okay, so let me latch onto that. Then how are 1064 01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:11.159 you defining the divine simplicity doctrine, which you say Aquinas 1065 01:00:11.159 --> 01:00:12.079 shares with Eunomias. 1066 01:00:13.639 --> 01:00:17.039 Well, I can look at the suma under the questions 1067 01:00:17.199 --> 01:00:20.320 like question three the simplicity of God, where it's stated 1068 01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:23.320 very clearly in those what eight questions? I think he says, 1069 01:00:23.639 --> 01:00:28.800 is God composite? Is the simple? Is God's existence exact 1070 01:00:28.840 --> 01:00:31.000 same as his essence? Yes? It is? Is there any 1071 01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:33.719 accidents in God? No? Are the attributes the same as 1072 01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:34.400 the essence of God? 1073 01:00:34.480 --> 01:00:34.639 Yes? 1074 01:00:34.679 --> 01:00:37.960 Are they just logical distinctions? Yes? So forth and so on. 1075 01:00:38.320 --> 01:00:39.960 I mean, there's not a whole lot of debate. I 1076 01:00:39.960 --> 01:00:43.719 wouldn't think about what Thomas says divine. 1077 01:00:43.480 --> 01:00:46.599 And so you're holding the Eunomius holds likewise that God 1078 01:00:46.679 --> 01:00:48.440 is identical to anything that can be said of him, 1079 01:00:48.440 --> 01:00:49.719 and therefore there can't be a trinity. 1080 01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:54.079 The only difference, the only difference between Aquinas and Eunomius 1081 01:00:54.719 --> 01:00:57.400 is that Aquinas wants there to be a via negativa 1082 01:00:57.760 --> 01:01:04.239 and Eunomius didn't. Ah, you can you can fall on 1083 01:01:04.280 --> 01:01:06.119 two sides of this coin. You can fall on the 1084 01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:08.440 on the side of the coin with the quietness where 1085 01:01:08.440 --> 01:01:09.519 you want both things to. 1086 01:01:09.440 --> 01:01:12.559 Be true, or you can follow on both things are white, 1087 01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:16.320 the trinity of persons and unity of nature? That what 1088 01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:19.079 well were the three of the two things are a 1089 01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:20.960 trinity of persons and simplicity of nature? 1090 01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:24.239 What two things? 1091 01:01:25.599 --> 01:01:28.360 That's the whole both things at once? What two things? 1092 01:01:28.480 --> 01:01:31.079 Simplicity of nature, persons. 1093 01:01:31.719 --> 01:01:37.199 And the via negativa where we can predicate analogically of God. 1094 01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:40.119 I'm not sure that the via negativa issue is what's 1095 01:01:40.119 --> 01:01:40.840 at stake here. 1096 01:01:40.679 --> 01:01:45.039 So let me this is why. It's the exact same 1097 01:01:45.079 --> 01:01:48.159 debate that Saint Gregory had with Barleum. Barleam says that 1098 01:01:48.199 --> 01:01:51.760 when we predicate of God, we predicate of him substantially 1099 01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:55.239 but analogically, and Saint Gregory responds by saying, if God 1100 01:01:55.360 --> 01:01:57.960 is an absolutely simple essence, and you only know creative effects. 1101 01:01:58.000 --> 01:02:00.400 You don't actually know God. You don't actually know God 1102 01:02:00.440 --> 01:02:03.800 because you never know whether you're experiencing what attribute, because 1103 01:02:03.800 --> 01:02:06.840 all the attributes are divine essence A right, I mean, 1104 01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:09.400 you're experiencing love. How do you know you're experiencing love 1105 01:02:09.440 --> 01:02:11.679 or justice or pere knowledge or what? You never know 1106 01:02:11.719 --> 01:02:13.480 because they're all the same as a divine essence. And 1107 01:02:13.519 --> 01:02:15.199 you don't ever participate in God. 1108 01:02:14.840 --> 01:02:18.440 And I'm happy to get into a problem of analogical predication, 1109 01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:21.320 but I'm not sure that's the same problem. Can we 1110 01:02:21.320 --> 01:02:29.079 see trinity for just a sec Okay, so let me 1111 01:02:29.119 --> 01:02:31.480 just try it. Maybe this will or maybe this won't 1112 01:02:31.519 --> 01:02:34.840 be germane to the to your point, but let me 1113 01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:37.639 try to give Aquitance's defense. Right, So this is now 1114 01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:40.519 the other side of the coins, not arguing force position. 1115 01:02:40.559 --> 01:02:43.800 It's repelling objections, explaining why he thinks that his doctrine 1116 01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:46.519 of simplicity is compatible with the trinity of persons, right, 1117 01:02:46.519 --> 01:02:48.000 because it seems to me that you're just saying that 1118 01:02:48.079 --> 01:02:50.000 straight up. It's just a case of trying to have 1119 01:02:50.079 --> 01:02:52.920 your cake and eat it too, right, right, correct? Yeah, 1120 01:02:53.599 --> 01:02:59.880 so Aquitances claim he holds divine simplicity to this extent. 1121 01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:05.800 He doesn't want there to be anything in God which 1122 01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:11.360 actualizes or is a principle of God's existence. Now, the 1123 01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:13.639 reason why he thinks this is compatible with there being 1124 01:03:13.719 --> 01:03:18.760 three subsistent relations in the divinity is because of how 1125 01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:23.360 he understands the nature of relation in particular. Right, so 1126 01:03:23.599 --> 01:03:26.360 he does more arsitilian framework. 1127 01:03:26.440 --> 01:03:26.880 Bear with me. 1128 01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:33.760 So in his framework, every anything, all ten of the 1129 01:03:33.800 --> 01:03:37.239 categories are going to have two sides to them. Right, 1130 01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:40.840 There's going to be the essay side, and there's going 1131 01:03:40.880 --> 01:03:43.280 to be the form of the Razio side. 1132 01:03:44.320 --> 01:03:45.480 Right, So you have. 1133 01:03:47.000 --> 01:03:50.920 Dog nature and a substantial form, and you have the 1134 01:03:51.159 --> 01:03:53.599 essay which is proper to it, which is subsistent essay. 1135 01:03:53.880 --> 01:03:54.960 And then you have. 1136 01:03:56.760 --> 01:03:59.639 Quantity his form. And then there's the essay which is 1137 01:03:59.639 --> 01:04:04.400 proper to which is n s or inherence, and the 1138 01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:08.280 same for quality. And in the case of these two, 1139 01:04:09.320 --> 01:04:14.000 there's a double sort of inherence. According to Aquinas, So 1140 01:04:15.079 --> 01:04:20.440 quantity and here's. 1141 01:04:18.440 --> 01:04:19.440 This cup is big. 1142 01:04:19.519 --> 01:04:22.800 Let's say quantity and here's a subject, both in the 1143 01:04:22.840 --> 01:04:25.679 sense that it draws its existence from that subject. 1144 01:04:25.760 --> 01:04:26.199 Right, it doesn't. 1145 01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:28.599 Quantity doesn't just hang out on its own, and it's 1146 01:04:28.599 --> 01:04:31.679 always the quantity of something. And here's in that sense, 1147 01:04:32.320 --> 01:04:34.440 and here is in a further sense, which is that 1148 01:04:34.559 --> 01:04:38.280 it posits that content, that formal content in the subject 1149 01:04:38.320 --> 01:04:45.480 and makes that cup b three ounces whatever. Right, So 1150 01:04:45.519 --> 01:04:49.920 it serves now as a principle of that cup's being, 1151 01:04:50.000 --> 01:04:53.320 makes that could be in a certain way. Okay, And 1152 01:04:53.400 --> 01:04:55.360 same for quality. So all the things that we normally 1153 01:04:55.400 --> 01:04:59.440 think of as attributes, whereas accidents have this double inherence 1154 01:04:59.480 --> 01:05:02.840 that they exists in the subject, draw their existence from it, 1155 01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:04.400 and they make it be in a certain way. So 1156 01:05:04.400 --> 01:05:09.159 Aquitans is going to deny that there can be any 1157 01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:13.480 anything predicated of God, anything really distinct from God in 1158 01:05:13.519 --> 01:05:16.840 hearing in him, after the fashion of quantity or quality. 1159 01:05:17.360 --> 01:05:19.599 And the reason is because quantity or equality and here 1160 01:05:19.679 --> 01:05:23.840 is in that second way. And thus would if really 1161 01:05:23.840 --> 01:05:28.719 distinct from God, add something to God's being? Relation is 1162 01:05:28.800 --> 01:05:31.360 different according to Aquinas, because it doesn't do that. And 1163 01:05:31.599 --> 01:05:33.400 here's only in the first way. 1164 01:05:33.480 --> 01:05:34.119 Still got an. 1165 01:05:34.119 --> 01:05:42.800 Essay one creatures, but it doesn't make its subject. It 1166 01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:45.599 doesn't it doesn't add any new content to the subject. 1167 01:05:45.960 --> 01:05:46.079 Right. 1168 01:05:46.119 --> 01:05:48.320 So, and you've got these two cups that are equal 1169 01:05:48.360 --> 01:05:53.000 in size to each other the size right, that's in 1170 01:05:53.000 --> 01:05:57.079 the category of quantity, posits content in the subject, actualizes 1171 01:05:57.079 --> 01:06:03.440 it and modifies it. And based on the fact that 1172 01:06:03.480 --> 01:06:05.360 it's got this thing which is modifying it, it's got 1173 01:06:05.360 --> 01:06:09.079 this other feature, which is the relation of equality, which 1174 01:06:09.079 --> 01:06:13.159 doesn't add anything to the cup at all, doesn't make it, 1175 01:06:13.199 --> 01:06:16.320 doesn't modify, it doesn't actualize, it doesn't limit it nothing. 1176 01:06:17.800 --> 01:06:22.719 So it's it's Rozzio guerna Quinas is pure towardness, purely 1177 01:06:22.760 --> 01:06:26.400 towards something else. So that's just among creatures. Transposing this 1178 01:06:26.480 --> 01:06:29.199 to God, he's going to say, okay, So, like everything 1179 01:06:29.199 --> 01:06:31.800 else in God, our arguments for divine simplicity are right. 1180 01:06:33.559 --> 01:06:36.360 The essay sign of this accident is not going to 1181 01:06:36.360 --> 01:06:40.679 be in essay. It's not going to be inherence. It's 1182 01:06:40.800 --> 01:06:45.519 just going to be the solf same divine essay. But 1183 01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:50.280 I can still talk about it's Rozzio, it's content being 1184 01:06:50.440 --> 01:07:01.599 distinct from from other relations in God, because these relations, right, 1185 01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:04.400 they're towards this is not towards the essence. They're not 1186 01:07:04.400 --> 01:07:06.480 positive something in the essence, they're not modifying, and they're 1187 01:07:06.639 --> 01:07:10.320 strictly looking outward. And so I can say that God, 1188 01:07:10.719 --> 01:07:14.920 when kind nature is two because of the Father or 1189 01:07:15.079 --> 01:07:20.320 from in the case of the Son, without actualizing, modifying, limiting, 1190 01:07:20.519 --> 01:07:23.360 or what have you, of the divine nature. And so 1191 01:07:23.480 --> 01:07:28.480 for aquittness, it's entirely principled to hold divine simplicity in 1192 01:07:28.519 --> 01:07:31.199 the sense which I just stated, namely, there can be 1193 01:07:31.239 --> 01:07:34.880 nothing in God which limits him or actualizes him, and 1194 01:07:35.119 --> 01:07:39.239 at the same time to hold three subsistent relations in 1195 01:07:39.280 --> 01:07:42.280 that divine nature. And so it's not ad hoc. It's 1196 01:07:42.280 --> 01:07:44.480 not just we're going to tack it on. It has 1197 01:07:44.519 --> 01:07:46.559 to do with what it means to talk about relations 1198 01:07:46.559 --> 01:07:47.239 in the first place. 1199 01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:50.480 Yeah, I'm familiar with what he says, and the problem 1200 01:07:50.599 --> 01:07:53.760 is that it doesn't work. So, for one, the basic 1201 01:07:53.800 --> 01:07:55.639 way to repute this is just to talk about the 1202 01:07:55.639 --> 01:08:00.599 fact that this distinction is spoken of as relations of opposition. 1203 01:08:00.719 --> 01:08:03.679 And yes, Aquinas does at times try to say that 1204 01:08:03.719 --> 01:08:06.280 the Father is still the arcade of the Trinity, But 1205 01:08:06.400 --> 01:08:09.280 what he doesn't understand is that for the Eastern position, 1206 01:08:09.400 --> 01:08:14.000 which has already declined this dogmat Yeah, can you hear me? 1207 01:08:14.440 --> 01:08:16.439 Hang on, I think I want to just say that again. 1208 01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:20.760 Yeah, what I was trying to say is that this 1209 01:08:20.880 --> 01:08:24.239 is already defined an Orthodox theology, we already had a 1210 01:08:24.279 --> 01:08:28.199 way to understand the relations within the Trinity, precisely because 1211 01:08:28.199 --> 01:08:31.520 we didn't have the absolute divine simplicity doctrine. So we 1212 01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:34.840 already had an Eastern tradition that dealt with these issues, 1213 01:08:35.560 --> 01:08:38.760 particularly in Saint Maximus Confessor, Saint Photius and so forth, 1214 01:08:38.800 --> 01:08:42.079 who really fleshed this out on multiple levels. And that's 1215 01:08:42.119 --> 01:08:45.279 because we don't have the absolute divind simplicity problem that 1216 01:08:45.319 --> 01:08:48.119 we needed to even use relations of opposition. This does 1217 01:08:48.159 --> 01:08:50.960 not come into play until Augustine and then later on 1218 01:08:51.079 --> 01:08:53.800 picked up by Anselm an Aquinas. So the problems with 1219 01:08:53.880 --> 01:08:56.720 this idea and the way that you formulated it is 1220 01:08:56.760 --> 01:08:58.640 that I understand that Aquinas doesn't want it to be 1221 01:08:58.680 --> 01:09:01.439 just tacked on. He wants it to really be, you know, 1222 01:09:01.560 --> 01:09:05.159 three hypostases. But the problem is that when you get 1223 01:09:05.239 --> 01:09:09.720 to this question of identifying the persons with the essence, 1224 01:09:09.760 --> 01:09:13.439 which Aquinas is very dogmatic about, he says specifically that 1225 01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:17.760 na curious person. This goes contrary to the fact that 1226 01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:20.920 Saint John Damascus in on the Orthodox Faith, says very 1227 01:09:20.920 --> 01:09:24.479 clearly that the identification of nature in person is the 1228 01:09:24.560 --> 01:09:27.359 root of all heresies and that's because sat John Damascus 1229 01:09:27.479 --> 01:09:31.319 understood that all the dialectical heretics would use this as 1230 01:09:31.359 --> 01:09:36.399 this kind of dialectical relationship between thing and other one. 1231 01:09:36.439 --> 01:09:41.359 In many simplicity and differentiation, they always set up a 1232 01:09:41.399 --> 01:09:46.079 dialectical tension, and so relations of opposition are ironically or 1233 01:09:46.119 --> 01:09:51.119 the Augustinian shield is a way to define the person's dialectically. 1234 01:09:51.479 --> 01:09:54.920 The problem is that it doesn't work. For one, the 1235 01:09:54.960 --> 01:09:58.399 spirit is subordinating in this relationship because he doesn't have 1236 01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:01.319 a property that the other you have. And in fact, 1237 01:10:01.319 --> 01:10:03.800 in Roman Catholic dogma it's actually stated more than once 1238 01:10:04.319 --> 01:10:06.640 that the father and the son are together a co 1239 01:10:06.840 --> 01:10:09.640 cause of the spirit. So the father and the son 1240 01:10:09.640 --> 01:10:12.680 is sharing property that the spirit doesn't have. All of 1241 01:10:12.680 --> 01:10:15.439 this in order to maintain this system of how to 1242 01:10:15.479 --> 01:10:19.399 differentiate between persons and an absolutely simple essence again, just 1243 01:10:19.479 --> 01:10:23.039 toss out the absolutely simple essence doctrine of a quitas 1244 01:10:23.319 --> 01:10:26.159 except the Eastern doctrine, and you don't have this problem. 1245 01:10:26.520 --> 01:10:29.560 The persons are differentiated because the father is the archae 1246 01:10:29.800 --> 01:10:34.479 You unriginate the cause of the persons. The aspiration is 1247 01:10:34.600 --> 01:10:38.039 unique to the spirit, generation is unique to the son, 1248 01:10:38.760 --> 01:10:41.479 and you don't need this relation of oppositions doctrine, which 1249 01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:46.600 is a dialectical philosophical speculation approach and actually doesn't really 1250 01:10:46.600 --> 01:10:50.119 distinguish a person because in fact, every one of the 1251 01:10:50.159 --> 01:10:53.800 persons shares this relation of being not the other. Right, 1252 01:10:54.399 --> 01:10:57.119 each of the persons is not the son, is not 1253 01:10:57.159 --> 01:10:59.119 the spirit is not the spirit is not the father, 1254 01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:02.880 et cetera. So not being the other two, uh, and 1255 01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:06.079 the spirit not having a property of producing a person 1256 01:11:06.680 --> 01:11:10.600 imbalances the trinity. So the spirit ends up being subordinated. 1257 01:11:10.600 --> 01:11:13.439 And this is the chief reason why the East has 1258 01:11:13.439 --> 01:11:15.239 a problem with the Philly. Okay, So what you're talking 1259 01:11:15.279 --> 01:11:18.760 about in a way to distinguish the persons that doesn't 1260 01:11:18.760 --> 01:11:22.800 do damage to divine simplicity. Not only does it not work, 1261 01:11:22.880 --> 01:11:25.319 it's actually the root of the Philly. Okay. The Philioka 1262 01:11:25.359 --> 01:11:28.279 was introduced precisely because of this question and these issues, 1263 01:11:28.880 --> 01:11:31.439 and it just simply doesn't work, all right. 1264 01:11:31.840 --> 01:11:36.079 So first off, so I'm just going to reiterate my 1265 01:11:36.119 --> 01:11:37.600 point about it appeals to authority. 1266 01:11:37.720 --> 01:11:42.199 So you're you're in a Roman Catholic church, no, I know, 1267 01:11:43.640 --> 01:11:45.399 appeals to authority and name Catholic. 1268 01:11:45.880 --> 01:11:48.039 I would have appreciated if you like. Later emailed me 1269 01:11:48.159 --> 01:11:52.319 the quotation you're thinking of, which one, the one about 1270 01:11:52.359 --> 01:11:56.760 the root of all heresies? That sounds fun. It's an 1271 01:11:56.800 --> 01:11:59.680 on the Orthodox faith. It's famous where you're talking about 1272 01:11:59.680 --> 01:12:05.560 Crystal the Yeah. But secondly, apart from all that, So 1273 01:12:05.640 --> 01:12:08.800 first off, so you want to go down the subordination 1274 01:12:08.840 --> 01:12:11.680 to something, it's not clear. 1275 01:12:11.439 --> 01:12:20.079 To me a what you gain by or how. 1276 01:12:20.119 --> 01:12:22.520 This problem is more your problem for me than it 1277 01:12:22.600 --> 01:12:26.760 is for anybody, including for yourself, because if you're going 1278 01:12:26.800 --> 01:12:31.479 to say that subordinationism just means that one person is 1279 01:12:31.520 --> 01:12:33.279 going to be subordinate to another in as much as 1280 01:12:33.279 --> 01:12:35.239 it is from another, then. 1281 01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:40.680 Feeling, then you've got a problem. So I said, the 1282 01:12:40.760 --> 01:12:44.000 Roman doctrine of the father and the son together sharing 1283 01:12:44.039 --> 01:12:46.399 the property of being the co calls of the spirit 1284 01:12:46.479 --> 01:12:49.199 subordinates the spirit because the father and the shunt sons 1285 01:12:49.239 --> 01:12:52.359 share a property that the Spirit does not. So in 1286 01:12:52.439 --> 01:12:55.000 class if you read John Damascus or any Eastern Fathers 1287 01:12:55.119 --> 01:12:58.680 or what's normative, even in some Catholic theology, they will 1288 01:12:58.720 --> 01:13:01.279 make the claim that whatever we say something about God 1289 01:13:01.359 --> 01:13:04.319 to Trinity, it's either applicable to the persons or to 1290 01:13:04.359 --> 01:13:06.880 the essence. Right, So we're making a statement, either about 1291 01:13:06.880 --> 01:13:09.720 the unity of God or about the persons. There's no 1292 01:13:09.960 --> 01:13:13.399 there's no property that two persons share that the others 1293 01:13:13.520 --> 01:13:18.920 that another person doesn't have. And infhilioquism is it's defined 1294 01:13:19.039 --> 01:13:22.000 in Florence and the Roman dogmas. You have the father 1295 01:13:22.119 --> 01:13:25.680 and the son as the co cause of the hypostasis 1296 01:13:25.720 --> 01:13:28.880 of the spirit. It's not just the eternal manifestation, which 1297 01:13:28.920 --> 01:13:32.000 is what we believe about the son sharing in the 1298 01:13:32.039 --> 01:13:34.720 eternal manifestation of the spirit, the spirit rests in him. 1299 01:13:35.079 --> 01:13:36.680 But in fact, in the Roman Catholic dogma, there's I 1300 01:13:36.680 --> 01:13:38.800 don't think there's any question that it's the father and 1301 01:13:38.840 --> 01:13:41.840 the son who are the hypostatic cause of the spirit. 1302 01:13:42.239 --> 01:13:45.199 So the subordination comes by the fact that the father 1303 01:13:45.239 --> 01:13:47.520 and the son share a property that the spirit does not. 1304 01:13:48.880 --> 01:13:53.600 Okay, So it's true that Aquitus will say this too much, 1305 01:13:54.199 --> 01:13:59.359 that there's four relations in God. There's going to be 1306 01:13:59.439 --> 01:14:04.960 the relation of paternity, affiliation, of spiration, and of procession. 1307 01:14:06.880 --> 01:14:09.119 And he holds up of those four and maybe this 1308 01:14:09.199 --> 01:14:12.680 is the esthetic. Uh, it's a pleasure that you're having 1309 01:14:12.680 --> 01:14:18.159 with us. Only three of those are I forget what 1310 01:14:18.159 --> 01:14:20.439 the technical term is, but only three of those correspond 1311 01:14:20.479 --> 01:14:22.960 to a person. The reason is because the fourth, namely spiration, 1312 01:14:24.119 --> 01:14:26.600 is not held in opposition. 1313 01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:27.239 It's not. 1314 01:14:28.960 --> 01:14:33.640 Well, it's held in common by two persons, and so 1315 01:14:33.720 --> 01:14:37.359 it doesn't serve to identify one person as as opposed 1316 01:14:37.439 --> 01:14:37.920 to another. 1317 01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:44.000 Well, he uses relations of opposition and he tries to 1318 01:14:44.119 --> 01:14:48.640 use affiliation, spiration, et cetera. So so there's there's both 1319 01:14:48.640 --> 01:14:51.000 our president of Quinas and it's only in the more 1320 01:14:51.079 --> 01:14:54.560 radical philioquiz that really that relations of opposition even entered 1321 01:14:54.600 --> 01:14:56.399 as a way to do it, but it doesn't work. 1322 01:14:56.640 --> 01:14:59.119 But there is a section where he talks about relations 1323 01:14:59.119 --> 01:14:59.720 of opposition. 1324 01:15:00.159 --> 01:15:02.439 Oh yeah, no, no, the relations of opposition essentral. So quin 1325 01:15:02.479 --> 01:15:05.760 it's the theory, right. My point was just sure you 1326 01:15:05.840 --> 01:15:10.119 have this aesthetic ugliness if you like that. Of the 1327 01:15:10.159 --> 01:15:13.720 four relations with the two pairs, right, So, fraternity, affiliation, 1328 01:15:13.840 --> 01:15:18.760 and procession to spiration, only three of those pick out 1329 01:15:18.800 --> 01:15:21.640 a person. And the reason is because the fourth spiration 1330 01:15:21.960 --> 01:15:25.000 is shared in common by two of itself. I'm not 1331 01:15:25.039 --> 01:15:27.960 sure why that's why that's a problem. 1332 01:15:28.039 --> 01:15:30.399 If you want to does the father and the son 1333 01:15:30.600 --> 01:15:33.319 share a property that the spirit does not? In anything 1334 01:15:33.359 --> 01:15:35.520 that you say about God is applicable either to the 1335 01:15:35.560 --> 01:15:36.800 persons or to the nature. 1336 01:15:37.439 --> 01:15:41.079 Okay, So by your theory, don't the son and the 1337 01:15:41.079 --> 01:15:43.319 spirit both share a property which the Father does not. 1338 01:15:45.359 --> 01:15:51.600 No being from, No, because because the way that they're 1339 01:15:51.600 --> 01:15:53.920 defined is not merely being from the way they're defined 1340 01:15:54.000 --> 01:16:01.920 is hypostatic origin. Generation defines the son, spiration defines the spirit, 1341 01:16:02.000 --> 01:16:03.359 and the Father is the sole cause. 1342 01:16:04.880 --> 01:16:11.560 Okay, and so okay, But so it seems so you see, 1343 01:16:12.359 --> 01:16:14.640 I'm trying to forguret where to start here. So it 1344 01:16:14.680 --> 01:16:16.640 seems as though I could say in reply, right, so 1345 01:16:16.800 --> 01:16:19.159 what you've got there is they've got they both share 1346 01:16:19.159 --> 01:16:22.039 this property of being from, and one of them is 1347 01:16:22.119 --> 01:16:26.640 from in this way, which is being generated sonship, and 1348 01:16:26.680 --> 01:16:28.840 one of them is being from in this way, which 1349 01:16:28.920 --> 01:16:33.039 is being spiratd or proceeding or whatever. But it seems 1350 01:16:33.079 --> 01:16:34.920 as though I can say the exact same thing with 1351 01:16:35.000 --> 01:16:37.399 regards to spiration, right, because I can say that the 1352 01:16:37.399 --> 01:16:41.520 son aspirates the spirit as from the Father, and I 1353 01:16:41.560 --> 01:16:44.960 can say that the Father inspireates the spirit, not as from. 1354 01:16:45.239 --> 01:16:48.399 And so although sure there's a verbal similarity at the 1355 01:16:48.479 --> 01:16:53.239 level of abstraction, the reality is there's no like actual, 1356 01:16:53.560 --> 01:16:57.560 real relation which father and son both have, which the 1357 01:16:57.600 --> 01:16:58.359 spirit doesn't. 1358 01:17:00.159 --> 01:17:02.920 But in the Roman dogma they're defined as a co cause. 1359 01:17:03.199 --> 01:17:04.399 Father and son are. 1360 01:17:04.479 --> 01:17:09.960 Hypostatically no person is caused by any other. 1361 01:17:10.880 --> 01:17:13.640 Of course, they are cause. 1362 01:17:14.479 --> 01:17:16.119 The cause means to receive it being. I don't think 1363 01:17:16.159 --> 01:17:18.439 you want to say that. 1364 01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:22.359 This is typical Orthodox and Church father terminology. The father 1365 01:17:22.479 --> 01:17:26.439 is the sole cause. Even a quantus uses this terminology. 1366 01:17:27.760 --> 01:17:30.560 So again, it just depends on what you mean by cause. 1367 01:17:30.640 --> 01:17:30.720 Right. 1368 01:17:30.720 --> 01:17:34.119 It's if by cause you mean something which makes something else, 1369 01:17:34.399 --> 01:17:37.159 obviously not normally when. 1370 01:17:37.560 --> 01:17:40.520 It's in your own dogmas that the father and the 1371 01:17:40.520 --> 01:17:43.720 son are the co cause of the spirits hypostasis. 1372 01:17:46.159 --> 01:17:49.840 Yeah, if you want to send me footnotes, you want 1373 01:17:49.840 --> 01:17:58.840 me to read the dogma to you the footnote. But 1374 01:17:59.319 --> 01:18:01.199 when I'm trying to do right now is just the 1375 01:18:01.279 --> 01:18:04.039 sentiquent position as I understand it, And to my knowledge, 1376 01:18:04.159 --> 01:18:07.000 he's never going to say that the father causes the son. 1377 01:18:07.000 --> 01:18:09.000 He's going to say that the father generates the son, 1378 01:18:09.359 --> 01:18:11.279 is going to say that the son has the divine 1379 01:18:11.359 --> 01:18:15.439 nature as from the father. He's a very precise, and 1380 01:18:15.600 --> 01:18:16.000 I think. 1381 01:18:18.079 --> 01:18:20.279 The term cause is used. They don't mean it in 1382 01:18:20.319 --> 01:18:24.159 the sense of creating. It's just a it's just termin it's. 1383 01:18:24.119 --> 01:18:28.039 Used as synonymous for XS from WY. That's fine. 1384 01:18:29.119 --> 01:18:32.159 Well, that's how it's used patristically, so they're not saying 1385 01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:38.479 and many church fathers use this terminology. Again, it's in Florence. Uh, 1386 01:18:39.319 --> 01:18:42.119 the father and the son are a co cause I'm 1387 01:18:42.119 --> 01:18:46.000 looking for the other. I think it's lateran it talks 1388 01:18:46.039 --> 01:18:48.399 about I'll give you the Denzinger here in a second. 1389 01:18:48.439 --> 01:18:51.760 But but again, the point is that that in the 1390 01:18:52.000 --> 01:18:56.079 you have a balanced position in the East where you 1391 01:18:56.159 --> 01:19:00.520 don't have attributes of properties that that two have. And 1392 01:19:00.600 --> 01:19:05.319 saying from from a source is not an attribute because 1393 01:19:05.319 --> 01:19:07.960 it's it's not a positive relation. It's a negative relation. 1394 01:19:08.079 --> 01:19:11.319 That doesn't that doesn't express anything that's part of that 1395 01:19:11.359 --> 01:19:15.800 relation of opposition. We don't we don't do relations of opposition. 1396 01:19:15.920 --> 01:19:19.159 We do hypostatic origin as the way to understand the trinity. 1397 01:19:19.800 --> 01:19:23.439 And since the Father alone is the sole cause or 1398 01:19:23.520 --> 01:19:27.399 arcade of the trinity, he's the unoriginate one. The only 1399 01:19:27.479 --> 01:19:31.319 way to distinguish the person's is by hypostatic origins, by 1400 01:19:31.359 --> 01:19:33.800 the fact that the son is generated and the spirit 1401 01:19:33.880 --> 01:19:34.840 eternally proceeds. 1402 01:19:35.439 --> 01:19:37.439 So how do you distinguish what it means to be 1403 01:19:37.479 --> 01:19:39.199 generated and what it means to be proceeded. 1404 01:19:39.640 --> 01:19:42.119 I will tell you what every single Eastern father says 1405 01:19:42.119 --> 01:19:44.000 to that very question, which is that we don't know 1406 01:19:44.079 --> 01:19:44.960 what those words mean. 1407 01:19:46.600 --> 01:19:54.560 Okay, But what Acquinance is trying to do is to 1408 01:19:54.600 --> 01:19:58.479 give a principled reason for why these two should not 1409 01:19:58.520 --> 01:20:03.199 collapse into each other. Right, And it seems as if 1410 01:20:03.199 --> 01:20:07.880 that's something valuable today. Just to go back to the 1411 01:20:07.880 --> 01:20:10.600 subordination as something again, it's just not clear to me. 1412 01:20:15.079 --> 01:20:19.239 It's not clear to me why by saying that the 1413 01:20:19.319 --> 01:20:23.399 father is strictly two, by saying that the son is 1414 01:20:23.439 --> 01:20:27.800 both from end to and saying that the spirit is 1415 01:20:27.800 --> 01:20:31.319 strictly from It's not clear to me why I am 1416 01:20:31.399 --> 01:20:35.279 saying that one of these is like better or nobler 1417 01:20:35.359 --> 01:20:38.680 or higher than the other. Right, Because and Iquanas does 1418 01:20:38.680 --> 01:20:42.880 discuss this objection, and his point is simply that when 1419 01:20:42.880 --> 01:20:46.840 you're talking about nobility, if the nobility comes strictly from 1420 01:20:46.960 --> 01:20:49.560 the difine essence, that's something absolute and that's shared equally 1421 01:20:49.600 --> 01:20:54.520 by all. To speak of from and to or from 1422 01:20:54.600 --> 01:20:57.479 end too, is not to speak in the language of 1423 01:20:58.079 --> 01:21:01.159 better or worse, more primary or secondary. 1424 01:21:03.000 --> 01:21:06.439 The idea of subordination doesn't have to do necessarily. We're 1425 01:21:06.479 --> 01:21:11.840 just defining what is less and more noble. What do 1426 01:21:11.880 --> 01:21:14.920 you mean by subordin? What is it that you see 1427 01:21:14.960 --> 01:21:17.760 as the problem with what you're calling subordination? And what 1428 01:21:17.960 --> 01:21:23.720 and how do you define it? That again, in our tridology, 1429 01:21:23.840 --> 01:21:27.439 which I again would argue is from the Eastern fathers 1430 01:21:27.439 --> 01:21:31.800 and councils and not just like my speculation, our triology 1431 01:21:31.880 --> 01:21:37.119 doesn't argue that that we can say anything about God 1432 01:21:37.159 --> 01:21:41.039 that isn't applicable to hypostasis or to God considered as 1433 01:21:41.560 --> 01:21:45.079 unity right to one God. So if we say wisdom, 1434 01:21:45.399 --> 01:21:48.439 wisdom is a property or attribute that is applicable to 1435 01:21:48.520 --> 01:21:51.479 all the persons. Right, So it's not like the Father 1436 01:21:51.600 --> 01:21:53.800 alone has wisdom and the spirit doesn't. Right, So that's 1437 01:21:53.800 --> 01:21:57.920 a that's a statement about God considered as God. It's 1438 01:21:57.960 --> 01:22:01.560 applicable to all the persons because because wisdom is a 1439 01:22:03.039 --> 01:22:06.479 wisdom is a natural attribute. It's a property or an 1440 01:22:06.479 --> 01:22:10.079 attribute applicable to nature. So likewise, when we say that 1441 01:22:10.319 --> 01:22:12.720 we consider the will of God, does God have three 1442 01:22:12.760 --> 01:22:15.039 wills or one will? God has one will? Because will 1443 01:22:15.119 --> 01:22:17.880 is a property of nature and not a property of hypostasis, 1444 01:22:18.199 --> 01:22:20.920 and for us, this is applicable to anything that's said 1445 01:22:20.960 --> 01:22:23.359 about God. So when we even when we talk about 1446 01:22:23.399 --> 01:22:27.279 trinitarian relations, when we talk about how we distinguish the persons, 1447 01:22:27.319 --> 01:22:30.000 we distinguish them by their origin, by the fact that 1448 01:22:30.039 --> 01:22:32.840 the Father alone is the fact that you have a 1449 01:22:32.920 --> 01:22:36.439 problem with the Father soul ark or cause, I think 1450 01:22:36.520 --> 01:22:40.560 shows a lack of understanding of what the Eastern fathers 1451 01:22:40.600 --> 01:22:42.560 say when they define the Father as the cause. 1452 01:22:42.880 --> 01:22:47.359 So for us, what you mean by a cause is 1453 01:22:47.439 --> 01:22:50.439 just I think what I meant by what I meant, 1454 01:22:52.399 --> 01:22:54.680 we're just talking about the relations of origin. 1455 01:22:55.319 --> 01:22:57.760 That's fine, okay, okay, But but for us, it's not 1456 01:22:57.920 --> 01:23:00.760 just a question of speculating about the trinity. For us, 1457 01:23:00.760 --> 01:23:03.119 this is how we know God. God is known first 1458 01:23:03.119 --> 01:23:06.720 and foremost, as Paul says, one Father. So God reveals 1459 01:23:06.760 --> 01:23:09.960 himself to us hypostatically or personally. We don't start with 1460 01:23:10.079 --> 01:23:13.760 reasoning back and coming up when they first cause simple essence. 1461 01:23:13.760 --> 01:23:15.840 We start with the fact that God says, I am 1462 01:23:15.920 --> 01:23:22.760 heat God is personal. We start our order theology is 1463 01:23:22.800 --> 01:23:25.319 different or order theology right. We start with the Father 1464 01:23:25.880 --> 01:23:29.920 and the Father as the sole cause or arka A. R. H. 1465 01:23:30.119 --> 01:23:33.760 In the Greek as Basil uses, it is the cause 1466 01:23:33.920 --> 01:23:36.880 of the son in terms of generation, and he's the 1467 01:23:36.920 --> 01:23:40.520 cause of the spirit eternally in terms of spiration. And 1468 01:23:40.600 --> 01:23:44.239 so that alone is the way that we distinguish the person. 1469 01:23:44.319 --> 01:23:46.640 There's no other way. So anytime we make a statement 1470 01:23:46.680 --> 01:23:49.319 about God, when we say how do we know who 1471 01:23:49.359 --> 01:23:52.279 the spirit is? We say, he proceeds eternally from the 1472 01:23:52.279 --> 01:23:55.239 Father through the son. And when we say who is 1473 01:23:55.239 --> 01:23:57.880 the son, he's the one. He is eternally generated from 1474 01:23:57.880 --> 01:24:01.359 the Father and eternally manifest us the spirit. Right, So 1475 01:24:01.439 --> 01:24:04.119 those are the ways that we distinguished And anything said 1476 01:24:04.119 --> 01:24:08.439 about God and our trinitarian theology causes imbalance. If we 1477 01:24:08.520 --> 01:24:12.479 attribute a property, a positive property to two persons, that 1478 01:24:12.600 --> 01:24:15.960 one of them doesn't have the spirit therefore lacks and 1479 01:24:16.039 --> 01:24:19.439 the ability to produce a person, and this and and 1480 01:24:19.760 --> 01:24:22.439 in other words, the Father and the Son have this 1481 01:24:22.439 --> 01:24:26.039 this melded kind of co cause here to use the 1482 01:24:26.439 --> 01:24:29.000 terminology of Florence, and I think the latter and council. Again, 1483 01:24:29.239 --> 01:24:31.520 I'm going for a memory here, but it is a 1484 01:24:31.600 --> 01:24:34.159 It is a father and the Son together signify a 1485 01:24:34.199 --> 01:24:39.760 single principle of the spirit. To use the terminology. Yes. 1486 01:24:40.199 --> 01:24:42.479 The reason I'm having trouble with this argument is that 1487 01:24:42.520 --> 01:24:46.079 it's just not clear to me what what is so 1488 01:24:46.239 --> 01:24:49.319 dire about the saying that this. 1489 01:24:49.279 --> 01:24:52.680 Is because nothing that's said of God it doesn't produce. 1490 01:24:52.760 --> 01:24:58.000 And when you say things about or a new person 1491 01:24:58.039 --> 01:24:58.640 the others too. 1492 01:24:59.199 --> 01:25:03.279 The other two are because you're you're happy with saying. 1493 01:25:02.359 --> 01:25:05.840 You can actually you can. You can see the subordination 1494 01:25:05.920 --> 01:25:07.359 of the spirit of the Roman Church over the last 1495 01:25:07.359 --> 01:25:12.039 several hundred years. The Spirit is not given his proper role. Uh. 1496 01:25:12.079 --> 01:25:14.319 And this is why you think that you know, I mean, 1497 01:25:14.319 --> 01:25:15.600 this is I'm not trying to get off on a trail, 1498 01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:17.640 but the Roman Church thinks that you need the payments to, 1499 01:25:17.720 --> 01:25:20.399 you know, settle all issues. Because the idea of Pentecosts 1500 01:25:20.479 --> 01:25:25.319 actually guiding the Spirit guiding the actual churches is is suppressed. 1501 01:25:25.479 --> 01:25:27.159 It leads to the idea of why we need a 1502 01:25:27.199 --> 01:25:30.600 pope because you don't understand the meaning of Pentecost and 1503 01:25:30.600 --> 01:25:33.279 the reality of the spirit. The Spirit is just as divine. 1504 01:25:33.600 --> 01:25:36.239 He's not lacked, he's not lacking in the ability. 1505 01:25:36.479 --> 01:25:38.359 You don't need to convince me that the Holy Spirit 1506 01:25:38.439 --> 01:25:42.039 is divine. All. I'm all I'm doing is I would 1507 01:25:42.039 --> 01:25:46.600 want to deny firmly that being toward another person as 1508 01:25:46.880 --> 01:25:50.079 towards rather than from, is somehow essential to being a 1509 01:25:50.119 --> 01:25:50.680 divine person. 1510 01:25:50.760 --> 01:25:52.439 I don't think he doesn't produce. 1511 01:25:53.439 --> 01:25:56.840 I do think that following down the filioqui trail is 1512 01:25:56.880 --> 01:25:58.560 a bit of a rabbit hole at the moment. 1513 01:25:58.800 --> 01:26:03.640 Right, So related Philly is a result of absolutely. 1514 01:26:03.600 --> 01:26:07.000 I understand that. So you're saying that it's a this 1515 01:26:07.079 --> 01:26:12.840 clinching argument against divine simplicity, that divine simplicity entails the bunk, 1516 01:26:13.199 --> 01:26:15.159 and that it's not going to work for me, because 1517 01:26:15.159 --> 01:26:17.960 I don't think the is bunk unless it seems perfectly 1518 01:26:18.039 --> 01:26:20.199 legit to hold divine simplicity. So, if you want to 1519 01:26:20.279 --> 01:26:22.960 argue against h the argument that I was giving. 1520 01:26:22.760 --> 01:26:25.279 Before, the father and the son are a co cause 1521 01:26:25.399 --> 01:26:29.920 or a co principle together the spirit, the spirit does 1522 01:26:29.960 --> 01:26:34.560 not have this property of producing a person. Yeah, that 1523 01:26:34.720 --> 01:26:37.399 is subordination. So he's lacking in a property that the 1524 01:26:37.439 --> 01:26:38.199 other two share. 1525 01:26:39.640 --> 01:26:41.039 Yeah, but I mean you could say the same thing 1526 01:26:41.039 --> 01:26:45.319 about the right. So I don't see why that's any 1527 01:26:45.359 --> 01:26:51.439 more problem classic because the father is that doesn't mean 1528 01:26:51.439 --> 01:26:53.119 that the father is like better. 1529 01:26:54.119 --> 01:26:56.000 No, you're not you're not getting the point that for 1530 01:26:56.079 --> 01:26:58.520 the first thousand years it was normative to say that 1531 01:26:58.640 --> 01:27:01.399 anything that we say about God's applicable to either the 1532 01:27:01.439 --> 01:27:04.640 persons all all of them, or to the nature, or 1533 01:27:04.680 --> 01:27:07.000 to the hy or or to them individually. So there 1534 01:27:07.000 --> 01:27:10.119 can't be something that to share that one doesn't that 1535 01:27:10.359 --> 01:27:15.359 produces the imbalance. There's only one cause. 1536 01:27:15.159 --> 01:27:18.640 Of seeing the connection between those two claims. There's also 1537 01:27:20.279 --> 01:27:22.479 everything which is predicated. 1538 01:27:22.000 --> 01:27:24.880 Only one ark in the trinity, and it is the Father, 1539 01:27:25.199 --> 01:27:27.720 and the Son does not share in his ark, in 1540 01:27:27.800 --> 01:27:32.399 his hypostatic property. Billyoquism makes the son share in what 1541 01:27:32.560 --> 01:27:35.640 makes the Father distinct, namely being the unoriginal cause of 1542 01:27:35.680 --> 01:27:36.399 the of the Godhead. 1543 01:27:38.079 --> 01:27:40.279 Yes, I mean, you're not gonna like this, right, but 1544 01:27:41.079 --> 01:27:44.520 the stimistic answer to that part of the problem is 1545 01:27:44.560 --> 01:27:48.800 going to be what makes the Father be the Father, right, 1546 01:27:49.039 --> 01:27:52.680 is the generating of the Son in the act of knowledge, 1547 01:27:52.680 --> 01:27:56.239 which is this diadic thing. And then what makes the 1548 01:27:56.239 --> 01:27:58.920 Holy Spirit be the Holy Spirit is the fact that 1549 01:27:58.960 --> 01:28:01.920 it results from the love of the two right. 1550 01:28:01.960 --> 01:28:05.000 So again this is why you use the same argument 1551 01:28:05.039 --> 01:28:08.039 that the Arians used, that that the Holy Spirit is 1552 01:28:08.039 --> 01:28:10.319 a product of the will of the Father and the son. 1553 01:28:11.159 --> 01:28:13.239 This is also the exact same argument. 1554 01:28:13.880 --> 01:28:17.119 I'm aware that you don't like the psychological analogy, but again, 1555 01:28:17.680 --> 01:28:18.279 can we keep the. 1556 01:28:18.520 --> 01:28:23.479 No because because this is important because listen, Sat Gregory 1557 01:28:23.520 --> 01:28:27.239 Poms uses the psychological analogy, but he applies it to 1558 01:28:27.319 --> 01:28:30.920 eternal manifestation, and when he critiques the Filioc way, he says, 1559 01:28:30.960 --> 01:28:36.520 the Romans are confused because they mistake mission for hyposthetic origin, 1560 01:28:36.600 --> 01:28:40.760 and they also mistake eternal manifestation for hyposthetic origin. So 1561 01:28:40.800 --> 01:28:42.640 that's why I began the talk when I mentioned Saint 1562 01:28:42.680 --> 01:28:46.119 John Demascus talking about eternal manifestation of the spirit. It's 1563 01:28:46.199 --> 01:28:48.960 not hyposthetic origin. It's it's John of the Mascus who 1564 01:28:49.000 --> 01:28:53.399 makes that point in that distinction. And what's not hypothetic origin? Mhm, 1565 01:28:53.960 --> 01:28:57.479 what's a lot hyposthetic origin? What we were just talking 1566 01:28:57.479 --> 01:29:00.960 about with the Holy Spirit? Uh, the psycle logical analogy 1567 01:29:01.000 --> 01:29:04.279 that you used, right, this is from Augustine and it's 1568 01:29:04.279 --> 01:29:06.159 in you're saying. 1569 01:29:05.960 --> 01:29:08.279 That it's not the hypostatic origin. That's a claim. I 1570 01:29:08.359 --> 01:29:08.760 deny it. 1571 01:29:08.880 --> 01:29:13.079 What's your argument because it doesn't work because the son 1572 01:29:13.199 --> 01:29:16.279 takes on a property of the son, takes on the 1573 01:29:16.399 --> 01:29:18.760 very thing that defines the father which is to be 1574 01:29:18.920 --> 01:29:19.760 the sole archade. 1575 01:29:20.439 --> 01:29:23.239 No, what defines the fathers to be, according to Kunas 1576 01:29:23.640 --> 01:29:29.319 is to be right, to not be from what definess 1577 01:29:29.319 --> 01:29:32.039 of opposition. And I said earlier that doesn't work because 1578 01:29:32.079 --> 01:29:37.119 the other two are not from which you admitted. I 1579 01:29:37.159 --> 01:29:44.439 can go over the text again, let's see, But okay, 1580 01:29:45.600 --> 01:29:47.960 we've got we can keep on going and feel the 1581 01:29:47.960 --> 01:29:48.960 oquay trail if you like. 1582 01:29:49.840 --> 01:29:51.319 Let let's put it this way. Let's put it this way. 1583 01:29:51.359 --> 01:29:53.359 If you read on the Orthodox Faith, which of course 1584 01:29:53.359 --> 01:29:57.399 Aquinas you know, references many many times, you will find 1585 01:29:57.479 --> 01:30:00.960 that everything that I'm saying and claiming is one hundred 1586 01:30:00.960 --> 01:30:03.760 percent in line with what sam JOHNA. Mascus is arguing. 1587 01:30:03.880 --> 01:30:05.720 And my point is just to say that. 1588 01:30:05.640 --> 01:30:08.159 There may not be that's not really not concerned. 1589 01:30:08.159 --> 01:30:11.319 But okay, I'm telling you to read it because you'll 1590 01:30:11.319 --> 01:30:15.279 find my arguments are all from that and other Orthodox writers. 1591 01:30:15.399 --> 01:30:18.159 So I'm not making arguments that are like out of 1592 01:30:18.159 --> 01:30:22.960 my head. They're actually from maybe somebody that you would 1593 01:30:23.000 --> 01:30:28.279 find worth reading useful right for the sake of future dialogue. 1594 01:30:28.279 --> 01:30:30.720 I'm saying, if you read that, you'll see all my 1595 01:30:30.840 --> 01:30:33.840 arguments are there would happily. 1596 01:30:34.039 --> 01:30:36.479 I think the opportunity to read Saint John and the. 1597 01:30:36.479 --> 01:30:42.239 Roman Church affirms that, right, So that affirms what he's 1598 01:30:42.279 --> 01:30:44.000 a doctor of the church in aquas. 1599 01:30:44.159 --> 01:30:48.520 Yeah, the doctor of the church is not to affirm 1600 01:30:48.560 --> 01:30:50.720 everything that they that they say it's true, of course, but. 1601 01:30:50.760 --> 01:30:53.399 I'm saying that true because he said it. I'm saying 1602 01:30:53.439 --> 01:30:56.039 that the arguments are there and for future reference, you 1603 01:30:56.079 --> 01:30:58.520 would if you want to understand where I'm getting all this, 1604 01:30:58.600 --> 01:30:59.159 it's from there. 1605 01:30:59.319 --> 01:31:03.800 Sure well, no, I appreciate that. But again, so just 1606 01:31:03.840 --> 01:31:06.960 to recap what got us there, right, So, you're saying 1607 01:31:08.840 --> 01:31:13.279 that divine simplicity is irreconcilable with the Trinity, because the 1608 01:31:13.279 --> 01:31:15.880 only way that's uh that you can reconcile it with 1609 01:31:15.880 --> 01:31:20.560 the Trinity is by subordinationism. I'm not convinced we can 1610 01:31:20.600 --> 01:31:22.399 have we can keep on having that argument if you 1611 01:31:22.439 --> 01:31:23.520 think that's the lynchpin. 1612 01:31:24.239 --> 01:31:26.960 But you understand what I'm saying though. What the problem 1613 01:31:27.079 --> 01:31:29.319 is that you don't understand our position in terms of 1614 01:31:29.399 --> 01:31:33.399 hypostatic origins. Is the only way to explain who God is. 1615 01:31:33.439 --> 01:31:35.439 I mean, even the idea of the Father being the 1616 01:31:36.079 --> 01:31:38.479 cause is foreign to you, and it's common in the 1617 01:31:38.479 --> 01:31:39.319 Eastern fathers. 1618 01:31:39.880 --> 01:31:42.840 Uh So I was inexplicable, right, because I asked you 1619 01:31:42.920 --> 01:31:47.319 what procession means as distinct from filiation, and you said 1620 01:31:47.319 --> 01:31:48.880 that that's in principle unanswerable. 1621 01:31:49.600 --> 01:31:51.520 And that's the answer of all the Eastern Fathers, and 1622 01:31:51.520 --> 01:31:53.840 even Augustine says that we don't even know exactly what 1623 01:31:53.880 --> 01:31:54.600 these words mean. 1624 01:31:55.319 --> 01:31:57.680 We have to exactly what these words mean. But I'm 1625 01:31:57.680 --> 01:32:00.920 asking you to give me some way in which, in 1626 01:32:00.920 --> 01:32:03.720 an imperfect we can distinguish these things. 1627 01:32:04.319 --> 01:32:07.680 I mean, we don't know how to define it. We 1628 01:32:07.720 --> 01:32:09.720 don't know how to procession, We don't know how to 1629 01:32:09.760 --> 01:32:12.840 find eternal generation and why these two things are different. 1630 01:32:12.880 --> 01:32:15.399 But they are. And if you read the next several 1631 01:32:15.520 --> 01:32:18.560 hundred centuries after Augustine of debate on this very question, 1632 01:32:18.800 --> 01:32:21.720 what you come to find out is that the way 1633 01:32:21.920 --> 01:32:24.560 that we distinguish the person's is different from the way 1634 01:32:24.680 --> 01:32:26.439 Rome tries to do it. Rome tries to do it 1635 01:32:26.439 --> 01:32:30.600 within a context of also accepting absolutely divide simplicity. We don't. 1636 01:32:31.079 --> 01:32:35.079 And because we don't, we have the Father defined by 1637 01:32:35.239 --> 01:32:37.920 his role as archae or soul, origin or cause of 1638 01:32:37.920 --> 01:32:42.199 the Godhead. That means that that for him to retain 1639 01:32:42.359 --> 01:32:46.399 his his hypostasis. He doesn't share that property of being 1640 01:32:46.399 --> 01:32:49.640 the cause with anyone else. So that's why the son 1641 01:32:49.800 --> 01:32:53.000 can't take on. Listen, that's why the son can't take 1642 01:32:53.039 --> 01:32:56.880 on what is his defining hypostatic term. 1643 01:32:57.479 --> 01:33:00.239 I understand that and the issues that we're taking two 1644 01:33:00.239 --> 01:33:04.159 different things as being the defining note of the father. 1645 01:33:04.279 --> 01:33:04.399 Right. 1646 01:33:04.399 --> 01:33:07.840 So I'm looking right now at Dave Potentia uh nine 1647 01:33:07.800 --> 01:33:12.319 to nine, which is on whether there are only three 1648 01:33:12.359 --> 01:33:13.520 persons of God? 1649 01:33:17.359 --> 01:33:30.479 Hello? Hello, what looks like we lost Hell being not born? 1650 01:33:31.439 --> 01:33:33.199 Are you there in my computers? 1651 01:33:33.199 --> 01:33:40.000 Having I'm looking right now at the Potensia nine nine, 1652 01:33:40.000 --> 01:33:42.720 which I think is aquinance, is the fullest explanation of 1653 01:33:42.760 --> 01:33:46.560 how he thinks the of the three persons are distinguished 1654 01:33:46.600 --> 01:33:47.039 from each other. 1655 01:33:47.720 --> 01:33:48.520 I could be wrong. 1656 01:33:48.319 --> 01:33:52.039 About that, but so what he takes is the defining 1657 01:33:52.119 --> 01:33:55.720 attribute of the father is not being cause of the others, 1658 01:33:55.720 --> 01:33:57.520 which is what you are taking that right, So I 1659 01:33:57.560 --> 01:34:00.479 grant you right. If you're gonna say that the person, 1660 01:34:02.720 --> 01:34:04.760 then the father and the and the son would collapse 1661 01:34:04.800 --> 01:34:06.760 into each other on the fil right. 1662 01:34:08.119 --> 01:34:11.199 The son which defines the father. 1663 01:34:11.840 --> 01:34:16.960 Rather, what defines the father is being, which in other words, 1664 01:34:17.000 --> 01:34:19.960 means to not be born, right, so to not be 1665 01:34:20.039 --> 01:34:24.520 from a cause. And that's not true if either father 1666 01:34:24.800 --> 01:34:27.600 or son. And so it seems as that problem that 1667 01:34:27.640 --> 01:34:30.399 you were just worried about, Uh, just depends on what 1668 01:34:30.439 --> 01:34:31.640 you choose as the. 1669 01:34:33.119 --> 01:34:36.640 No. I I recognize that Aquinas has a place for 1670 01:34:36.640 --> 01:34:40.000 for forgiving the father that role. That's not what the 1671 01:34:40.000 --> 01:34:43.399 contention is. The contention is that when when we see 1672 01:34:43.439 --> 01:34:48.000 that as the father's only define main defining property, that the. 1673 01:34:47.880 --> 01:34:54.560 Son or being the cause of another, that. 1674 01:34:54.439 --> 01:34:58.479 He is unriginate and the soul. Hey, godhead, this is 1675 01:34:58.560 --> 01:35:01.159 again the classical terminal to who the father is. And 1676 01:35:01.279 --> 01:35:04.239 Basil and Greg renounci Azus and Gregoranissa and in the 1677 01:35:04.279 --> 01:35:09.960 councils uh that that can't be something that the that 1678 01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:13.000 the son shares in. Okay, and the son shares in 1679 01:35:13.039 --> 01:35:16.680 that if he becomes also the cause of the spirit, there's. 1680 01:35:16.479 --> 01:35:22.079 No you take the defining attribute of the father, right, 1681 01:35:22.079 --> 01:35:25.039 So if you take the defining attribute of the father 1682 01:35:25.119 --> 01:35:29.600 as being the cause of a person more cause, I 1683 01:35:29.600 --> 01:35:35.600 mean like the originating toward and yeah, then there would 1684 01:35:35.600 --> 01:35:38.119 be two fathers and that's what you're trying to avoid. 1685 01:35:38.880 --> 01:35:41.840 But if you simply take the father to be that 1686 01:35:41.880 --> 01:35:45.319 which is, which does not proceed, which is not from another, 1687 01:35:45.439 --> 01:35:46.960 then there's only one, and I'm not sure what the 1688 01:35:47.000 --> 01:35:47.479 problem is. 1689 01:35:48.840 --> 01:35:51.000 That's just another way of saying that he is the 1690 01:35:51.000 --> 01:35:57.239 sole cause of the Godhead. He's not from another. Okay, 1691 01:35:57.720 --> 01:35:59.640 the other two are from another. Right, So this is 1692 01:35:59.640 --> 01:36:02.680 really of opposition. And again I'm trying to tell you 1693 01:36:02.720 --> 01:36:05.600 that that doesn't work as a negative definition of who 1694 01:36:05.640 --> 01:36:09.600 these people are. Who excuse me, hypostasies are from these persons. 1695 01:36:09.680 --> 01:36:17.720 Yes, yeah, again, I'm not sure what I lose by 1696 01:36:17.760 --> 01:36:20.800 saying that he is that which is by taking the 1697 01:36:20.840 --> 01:36:24.640 Father as that which is who gives and does not receive, 1698 01:36:25.279 --> 01:36:28.159 taking the Son and he who gives and receives, and 1699 01:36:28.199 --> 01:36:32.000 taking the Holy Spirit as he who receives. Right, like 1700 01:36:32.199 --> 01:36:35.960 that seems to distinguish all three quite nicely. You can 1701 01:36:36.000 --> 01:36:39.359 say like that receiving is common to son and spirit. 1702 01:36:39.560 --> 01:36:41.560 You can say if you like that giving is common 1703 01:36:41.600 --> 01:36:44.039 to father and son. But these are different kinds of giving, 1704 01:36:44.079 --> 01:36:46.000 in their different kinds of receivings, just like you said. 1705 01:36:46.039 --> 01:36:49.760 Right, So Aquanas talks about sometimes the Roman categorich we'll 1706 01:36:49.760 --> 01:36:52.119 talk about the Father is the principal source of the 1707 01:36:52.119 --> 01:36:56.079 Godhead and then the son as a secondary source when 1708 01:36:56.119 --> 01:36:58.960 we talk about the spiration, and what we say is 1709 01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:03.720 that that's impossible because number one, the son can't participate 1710 01:37:03.800 --> 01:37:08.199 in the father's hypostasis, and number two, it gives two 1711 01:37:08.279 --> 01:37:11.159 persons a positive property that the spirit doesn't have. 1712 01:37:13.920 --> 01:37:17.039 So I get what you're saying. What I'm just going 1713 01:37:17.079 --> 01:37:21.359 to argue what I was saying, which is I don't 1714 01:37:21.399 --> 01:37:23.600 think I'm well, let me say it a different way. 1715 01:37:23.720 --> 01:37:27.199 I don't think I'm giving any of the persons a 1716 01:37:27.279 --> 01:37:30.199 real positive property something which exists. 1717 01:37:30.640 --> 01:37:33.680 Uh, the Father and the son produced the spirit. 1718 01:37:34.520 --> 01:37:37.640 Yes, right, this is the common medication. 1719 01:37:38.079 --> 01:37:40.439 That's a real positive property that the spirit doesn't have. 1720 01:37:43.399 --> 01:37:46.760 So maybe this is getting into the problems of divine 1721 01:37:46.760 --> 01:37:50.960 predication or just the problems of predication in general. So 1722 01:37:50.960 --> 01:37:52.520 what a client is going to claim is that not 1723 01:37:52.640 --> 01:37:55.560 all of your just the fact that you can use 1724 01:37:55.600 --> 01:37:58.840 the same word for something, it doesn't mean that there 1725 01:37:58.960 --> 01:38:03.199 is in both cases the same reality corresponding isomorphically to 1726 01:38:03.239 --> 01:38:03.640 your word. 1727 01:38:03.960 --> 01:38:04.079 Right. 1728 01:38:04.119 --> 01:38:06.520 So quint is this going to say that there's two 1729 01:38:07.640 --> 01:38:11.279 relations in the father, one to the son and one 1730 01:38:11.319 --> 01:38:13.359 to the spirit, right, because I would mean that the 1731 01:38:13.359 --> 01:38:18.279 Father was too subsistently. What you've got in the case 1732 01:38:18.319 --> 01:38:22.960 of the Father is one relation which is not from 1733 01:38:23.359 --> 01:38:27.039 and toward period, and what you've got in the Son 1734 01:38:27.560 --> 01:38:33.079 is a relation of from and toward right received giving, 1735 01:38:33.960 --> 01:38:35.520 and the way you've got in the Holy Spirit is 1736 01:38:35.520 --> 01:38:39.359 a relation of reception. There's no real thing which is shared, 1737 01:38:41.960 --> 01:38:46.239 although I can speak of the Son and spirit received. 1738 01:38:47.560 --> 01:38:49.520 Think the Father and the Father and the Son really 1739 01:38:49.520 --> 01:38:50.159 produces spirit. 1740 01:38:51.199 --> 01:38:53.079 Do you say that the Son and the Holy Spirit 1741 01:38:53.119 --> 01:38:53.960 really receive the Father. 1742 01:38:55.720 --> 01:38:57.960 We don't use any of this, gobly Gi because we 1743 01:38:58.000 --> 01:39:00.920 don't believe tonism, but I'm we have, but we have 1744 01:39:01.039 --> 01:39:02.079 a way of distinguishing. 1745 01:39:02.520 --> 01:39:04.680 I'm just saying that receiving is as much of a 1746 01:39:04.720 --> 01:39:10.880 positive predicate as giving, and whether or not you have. 1747 01:39:09.560 --> 01:39:14.960 That because you affirm hypostatic origin supposedly Roman Caviolts do 1748 01:39:15.560 --> 01:39:18.680 supposedly does. And for the Spirit it is said to 1749 01:39:18.720 --> 01:39:21.560 be from the Father and the Son as a single principle. 1750 01:39:21.920 --> 01:39:25.079 There's no single principle in God that two persons shared 1751 01:39:25.119 --> 01:39:27.479 that the other one doesn't. It's a very simple argument. 1752 01:39:27.920 --> 01:39:29.239 Yeah, no, and I agree with that. 1753 01:39:29.439 --> 01:39:29.600 Right. 1754 01:39:29.640 --> 01:39:35.079 I'm saying that there is no metaphysical reality which father 1755 01:39:35.239 --> 01:39:39.039 has and which father and son both are. 1756 01:39:39.560 --> 01:39:43.439 Yes, there is. Your councils say together they constitute a 1757 01:39:43.479 --> 01:39:46.239 single principle of the spiration of the spirit in terms 1758 01:39:46.239 --> 01:39:48.039 of this hyposthetic origin. So that. 1759 01:39:49.960 --> 01:39:53.039 No, because we won't say that the there isn't no 1760 01:39:53.239 --> 01:39:56.239 act of causing. Right, there's relations of tor and there's 1761 01:39:56.319 --> 01:39:58.920 relations of from the standards missing model in this right 1762 01:39:59.039 --> 01:39:59.680 is that you have. 1763 01:40:00.840 --> 01:40:03.600 Well, you can throw out the word cause and you 1764 01:40:03.640 --> 01:40:06.479 can just say he's the principal source. The father and 1765 01:40:06.520 --> 01:40:09.199 the son in the Roman Catholic dogmas are said to 1766 01:40:09.199 --> 01:40:12.439 together a single source of the hypostasis of the spirit. 1767 01:40:17.119 --> 01:40:20.960 I'm okay with that. That is directly what you said, 1768 01:40:21.800 --> 01:40:27.319 a what's it, right, A property like whiteness or greenness 1769 01:40:27.399 --> 01:40:31.680 or relation or whatever, which is real in both father 1770 01:40:31.760 --> 01:40:37.399 and son. Again, just as you would not want to say, 1771 01:40:37.640 --> 01:40:41.600 that's simply the fact that both son and spirit are 1772 01:40:41.920 --> 01:40:46.239 from or are or proceed let's say, from the father. 1773 01:40:46.279 --> 01:40:48.239 You're willing to say that, right, that both father and 1774 01:40:48.239 --> 01:40:49.239 son proceed from the Father. 1775 01:40:49.920 --> 01:40:55.239 No, absolutely not, because proceed is In the Greek the 1776 01:40:55.239 --> 01:40:59.239 eperusis is a specific term that defines who the spirit is, 1777 01:40:59.760 --> 01:41:03.479 and generation is specific to who the son is. Okay, 1778 01:41:03.680 --> 01:41:08.359 is the word we don't. We don't use these common 1779 01:41:08.399 --> 01:41:10.840 attributes of well, both are from another, right, we don't 1780 01:41:10.840 --> 01:41:12.079 do relations of opposition. 1781 01:41:14.560 --> 01:41:17.920 Look, that's fine. I mean if you want to say 1782 01:41:18.000 --> 01:41:23.640 that this you're talking about cause, right, So you're using 1783 01:41:23.720 --> 01:41:27.600 this word cause. Yes, father causes the quote unquote. 1784 01:41:27.359 --> 01:41:29.800 The fathers and their councils use this term of the father. 1785 01:41:30.319 --> 01:41:30.520 You know. 1786 01:41:30.880 --> 01:41:33.760 That's fine. But but you're going with that, right. Is 1787 01:41:33.760 --> 01:41:34.520 there a correlative? 1788 01:41:35.079 --> 01:41:37.239 By the way, they don't. They don't use the Ariscitilian 1789 01:41:37.319 --> 01:41:41.119 tomistic view of this. That's fine. 1790 01:41:42.279 --> 01:41:44.600 Are you going to grant that there is a correlative 1791 01:41:44.600 --> 01:41:45.920 to cause which is being caused? 1792 01:41:48.520 --> 01:41:55.279 Oh? Yeah, okay, correlative? Is it is true to say, listen, 1793 01:41:55.439 --> 01:41:58.199 it is true to say that the son and the 1794 01:41:58.239 --> 01:42:01.920 spirit are from another. That's true. True, that's fine. All 1795 01:42:01.920 --> 01:42:05.800 we're saying is that that that is not what defines 1796 01:42:06.039 --> 01:42:10.239 the persons. And lets us know the distinctions of the hypostats, all. 1797 01:42:10.159 --> 01:42:14.359 Right, but simply being to another is not what defines 1798 01:42:14.600 --> 01:42:22.680 the persons in domistic theology, either another and not from But. 1799 01:42:22.800 --> 01:42:26.039 You again understand that it's not supposed to be too. 1800 01:42:26.600 --> 01:42:31.239 But the whole dogma interjects a new principle into the trinity, 1801 01:42:31.800 --> 01:42:35.239 of the Father and the Son together constituting a single 1802 01:42:35.319 --> 01:42:39.000 hyposthetic source of the spirit. So you have a new 1803 01:42:39.039 --> 01:42:42.880 principle of a diad introduced into the trinity, and there 1804 01:42:42.920 --> 01:42:45.800 is no diet. It's always whatever is true is true 1805 01:42:45.800 --> 01:42:49.079 of the persons or of God as a whole. That's 1806 01:42:49.720 --> 01:42:53.239 straight up classic orthodox trinitarianism. I'm saying orthodox in the 1807 01:42:53.239 --> 01:42:53.840 general sense. 1808 01:42:55.560 --> 01:43:01.279 Yeah, I don't. I'm trying to think of a way 1809 01:43:01.319 --> 01:43:02.960 to save us without just repeating myself again. 1810 01:43:04.079 --> 01:43:09.760 You're admitting hyposthetic properties and causes or origins we calls 1811 01:43:10.640 --> 01:43:16.279 that's standard timistic trinitarian theology. Mm hmm. And the origin 1812 01:43:16.520 --> 01:43:19.479 of the spirit is from a father and son as 1813 01:43:19.560 --> 01:43:21.279 one principle. Correct. 1814 01:43:26.760 --> 01:43:29.000 My knowledge of the coin is is Strinitarian theology is 1815 01:43:29.039 --> 01:43:32.359 not sufficient to allow me to say yes to the 1816 01:43:32.520 --> 01:43:33.159 as from. 1817 01:43:34.119 --> 01:43:38.960 It's may be to check. He does say that the 1818 01:43:39.000 --> 01:43:41.000 barbercal but I don't have the sumo on hand. So 1819 01:43:41.840 --> 01:43:43.720 but anyway, I don't think we're gonna. 1820 01:43:44.119 --> 01:43:46.520 I would be really hesitant to say that. 1821 01:43:47.800 --> 01:43:50.439 I would be surprised. That's the dogmatical to the teaching. 1822 01:43:51.479 --> 01:43:54.560 But I would be surprised if he thinks of father 1823 01:43:54.720 --> 01:43:57.359 and son as together doing. 1824 01:43:57.760 --> 01:43:59.920 One what's it? 1825 01:44:00.199 --> 01:44:06.680 H again, but there is no action which is coming 1826 01:44:06.720 --> 01:44:10.159 out of either one of them, right, Uh? In this theology, 1827 01:44:10.279 --> 01:44:14.079 there's just relations of to and from. So again there's 1828 01:44:14.079 --> 01:44:17.439 there's no like source of so that you're you're talking 1829 01:44:17.439 --> 01:44:19.000 about a diad being. 1830 01:44:18.880 --> 01:44:24.760 Like a again the reason that producing a third thing. 1831 01:44:25.079 --> 01:44:26.439 And I just think that's the wrong way to think 1832 01:44:26.439 --> 01:44:26.840 about this. 1833 01:44:27.239 --> 01:44:29.199 Now, it's not the wrong way, it's the right way 1834 01:44:29.239 --> 01:44:31.920 because that's how the Eastern Fathers all categorize it, and 1835 01:44:31.960 --> 01:44:34.239 that's how it's used not just in the councils, but 1836 01:44:34.279 --> 01:44:35.880 also when it comes to Christology. 1837 01:44:36.119 --> 01:44:37.600 I'm saying that that's the wrong way to understand what 1838 01:44:37.600 --> 01:44:38.439 a quite is saying. 1839 01:44:40.920 --> 01:44:47.079 Ah anyway, yeah, so do we want to maybe move to? 1840 01:44:48.399 --> 01:44:51.000 So what's that? Do we want to move on? I mean, 1841 01:44:51.039 --> 01:44:53.399 we're just going to keep going, I think, in circles 1842 01:44:53.439 --> 01:44:56.720 about this because you know, so. 1843 01:44:58.960 --> 01:45:01.960 Maybe even Re Saint John Damascene is going to convince 1844 01:45:02.000 --> 01:45:06.079 me that the filioquay is so bad that it's this 1845 01:45:06.439 --> 01:45:12.319 tremendous roadblock to to any divine simplicity theory. But at 1846 01:45:12.319 --> 01:45:15.800 the moment it seems to me that being able to like, 1847 01:45:15.880 --> 01:45:20.199 I'm not feeling the problem of saying that both father 1848 01:45:20.359 --> 01:45:22.680 and son can be said to spire it because again 1849 01:45:22.720 --> 01:45:24.880 this does not name a real relation, according to Aquinas, 1850 01:45:26.840 --> 01:45:31.039 and so like maybe I should, I would only be 1851 01:45:31.159 --> 01:45:33.399 moved by it at the moment. If to spire eight 1852 01:45:34.439 --> 01:45:37.640 were said to be a real relation defining a person 1853 01:45:37.920 --> 01:45:39.279 for Aquinas, that would be inconsistent. 1854 01:45:39.319 --> 01:45:40.239 Aquinas does not hold that. 1855 01:45:40.640 --> 01:45:43.800 But okay, so let me just let's backtle from this, 1856 01:45:43.800 --> 01:45:47.399 can I can I ask you another question about the energies. Okay, 1857 01:45:48.079 --> 01:45:55.359 So the central the central problem, like I was saying earlier, 1858 01:45:55.399 --> 01:45:58.239 thought a Toomas is going to have with talking about 1859 01:45:58.359 --> 01:46:02.720 energies is if energy are in some way going to 1860 01:46:02.800 --> 01:46:08.359 be positing something in the subject. Right, It's the regular 1861 01:46:08.439 --> 01:46:11.720 accidents like wisdom injustice. Right, So when I say that 1862 01:46:11.800 --> 01:46:14.800 I have these right, they are from me, right, they 1863 01:46:14.800 --> 01:46:18.520 exist in me, but they also posit something in me 1864 01:46:18.520 --> 01:46:19.840 if they make me be a certain way. 1865 01:46:20.520 --> 01:46:20.680 Right. 1866 01:46:20.720 --> 01:46:23.079 So if we were to take energies in that sense, 1867 01:46:23.439 --> 01:46:26.079 the Thomas is going to be very worried, right, because 1868 01:46:26.079 --> 01:46:29.079 it's going to seem as though you're filling a slot 1869 01:46:29.279 --> 01:46:31.640 or an opening or something in God that the divine 1870 01:46:31.720 --> 01:46:35.880 nature of itself doesn't have. Now, I presume that's not 1871 01:46:36.039 --> 01:46:40.760 what you're saying, right, do you want to characterize how 1872 01:46:40.840 --> 01:46:44.159 your understanding of energy as avoids that? How is predicating 1873 01:46:44.600 --> 01:46:47.960 wisdom as an energy of God different from predicating wisdom 1874 01:46:48.000 --> 01:46:48.920 as an accident of me? 1875 01:46:51.720 --> 01:46:54.640 Because we don't identify This is the point I was 1876 01:46:54.640 --> 01:46:58.680 making earlier about analogical predication. We don't identify the predicates 1877 01:46:58.800 --> 01:47:01.600 with the divine essence, would then makes them meaningless. We 1878 01:47:01.720 --> 01:47:04.520 say that the predicates are analogical to the energies, which 1879 01:47:04.520 --> 01:47:10.760 are not the divine essence. That was an answer your question, 1880 01:47:10.840 --> 01:47:13.640 because what you're talking about with you is actually an 1881 01:47:13.720 --> 01:47:15.760 argument that Nissa uses when he says that how do 1882 01:47:15.800 --> 01:47:19.800 we understand the difference between act or energy, h and 1883 01:47:19.920 --> 01:47:22.039 will and nature in person? He says, well, let's look 1884 01:47:22.079 --> 01:47:25.119 at a human person. Right, There's there's an action that's 1885 01:47:25.119 --> 01:47:27.840 distinct from the person. The person builds a house that's 1886 01:47:27.840 --> 01:47:30.479 an effect of the work that he did. We might 1887 01:47:30.560 --> 01:47:33.840 learn something about that person, but we don't perceive his 1888 01:47:34.039 --> 01:47:37.600 nature or directly know his hypostasis. By looking at the 1889 01:47:37.600 --> 01:47:39.199 house that he built, we might learn a few things 1890 01:47:39.239 --> 01:47:42.359 about him when we when we interact with that person directly, 1891 01:47:42.680 --> 01:47:45.319 we interact with his hypostasis, which is makes what makes 1892 01:47:45.359 --> 01:47:48.119 him distinct. And we understand that perhaps we share a 1893 01:47:48.159 --> 01:47:51.840 common nature between me and so you have you, mister 1894 01:47:51.920 --> 01:47:54.640 duarct Fingeld, have a human nature that I share. But 1895 01:47:54.720 --> 01:47:59.159 I'm the hypostasis Jay, You're the hypostasis, uh duc Feingel. 1896 01:47:59.479 --> 01:48:03.840 So doesn't now. So the Eastern Fathers make these analogies 1897 01:48:04.079 --> 01:48:05.800 right to who God is, and they say that in 1898 01:48:05.840 --> 01:48:08.800 the same way that a man creates a building, and 1899 01:48:08.800 --> 01:48:11.239 we might learn about him and his wisdom and his 1900 01:48:11.359 --> 01:48:14.640 works that are proper to human nature through creating a house. 1901 01:48:14.720 --> 01:48:18.039 In the same way, there's an analogy to God creating 1902 01:48:18.039 --> 01:48:20.600 the world, and his energy and act of creating the 1903 01:48:20.600 --> 01:48:22.399 world is distinct from who he is in his essence. 1904 01:48:22.600 --> 01:48:24.359 Because if we said that the act of creating the 1905 01:48:24.399 --> 01:48:25.880 world was the same as the divine us, since we 1906 01:48:25.880 --> 01:48:28.079 would be led to all kinds of absurdities, such as 1907 01:48:28.119 --> 01:48:30.279 that the creation of the world is exactly the same 1908 01:48:30.279 --> 01:48:34.359 as the conflagration, because both are divine actions. So what 1909 01:48:34.399 --> 01:48:37.600 we say is that the energies of God are the 1910 01:48:37.600 --> 01:48:41.359 things around him. This is the way Thatsius, the Areopagus, 1911 01:48:41.359 --> 01:48:45.000 the Saint Basils sat Gregory, Saint this as they all 1912 01:48:45.119 --> 01:48:48.840 say that. It's the way to understand this is to 1913 01:48:48.920 --> 01:48:52.079 look at when Moses goes up on the mountain, and 1914 01:48:52.239 --> 01:48:55.560 we're told in Exodus that Moses saw God face to face. 1915 01:48:55.720 --> 01:48:57.560 But no man can see God face to face and live. 1916 01:48:57.640 --> 01:49:00.600 So how is this possible? What's possible because that the Theophanes, 1917 01:49:00.840 --> 01:49:03.560 the manifestations of God, the energies of God within history 1918 01:49:03.600 --> 01:49:06.439 that operate can at times even be made visible if 1919 01:49:06.439 --> 01:49:08.039 God so chooses to Right. 1920 01:49:08.079 --> 01:49:10.640 So I mean all of that you're describing, it's completely 1921 01:49:10.800 --> 01:49:12.960 compatible with what it Quita says about the vine simplicity. 1922 01:49:13.039 --> 01:49:13.920 Right, No, it's not at all. 1923 01:49:14.279 --> 01:49:17.279 Sure it is because it absolutely maintains. 1924 01:49:17.159 --> 01:49:19.239 That the apes are not real in your doctrine. 1925 01:49:20.000 --> 01:49:21.119 I don't know what you mean by that. 1926 01:49:22.079 --> 01:49:24.399 So you don't believe that, you don't believe that, you 1927 01:49:24.439 --> 01:49:28.560 don't believe that God's goodness was manifest distinct from the 1928 01:49:28.680 --> 01:49:30.960 essence of God. Mostes didn't see the essence of God. 1929 01:49:31.239 --> 01:49:33.600 Manifestations of God's goodness are distinct from the essence of God. 1930 01:49:34.039 --> 01:49:37.840 Right, So look only because you believe they're created effects 1931 01:49:37.880 --> 01:49:39.960 though you don't believe that it's actually the goodness of God. 1932 01:49:40.039 --> 01:49:42.479 You believe that it's a created hologram or effective God. 1933 01:49:42.560 --> 01:49:45.399 This is why RAS intends to not believe that the 1934 01:49:45.479 --> 01:49:48.840 Angel of the Lord it was the preincarnate logos, because 1935 01:49:48.840 --> 01:49:51.079 that's that's impossible and absolute divine simplicity. 1936 01:49:51.479 --> 01:49:53.840 It seems to me that you're trying to hold two 1937 01:49:53.960 --> 01:49:56.960 incompatible things. So let me try to parse this out. 1938 01:49:57.119 --> 01:49:59.680 I'm telling you to argue, is revealed right that the 1939 01:50:00.399 --> 01:50:04.359 are the logos pre incarnate hold on person become can 1940 01:50:04.439 --> 01:50:06.399 become manifest within time and space. 1941 01:50:07.720 --> 01:50:10.000 Yes, I know that the person become manifest and time 1942 01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:10.359 and space. 1943 01:50:10.640 --> 01:50:14.319 But you don't believe that, sure, I know you don't. 1944 01:50:15.439 --> 01:50:16.920 You don't believe that the ansl of the Lord was 1945 01:50:16.960 --> 01:50:19.760 the logos. The Roman Catholic doctrine is that those are 1946 01:50:19.840 --> 01:50:26.960 created holograms and not Christ himself. That's why you believe 1947 01:50:27.000 --> 01:50:28.920 that the light of Mount Table has created light. 1948 01:50:31.479 --> 01:50:35.159 Well, let's rewind a little bit, okay, so and we 1949 01:50:35.239 --> 01:50:36.680 can talk about how to make I've. 1950 01:50:36.600 --> 01:50:40.640 Never met a Catholics that the Theophanies were real or 1951 01:50:40.720 --> 01:50:43.800 that the light of Matthew seventeen the transfiguration was uncreated 1952 01:50:43.880 --> 01:50:46.640 like every Roman Catholic I've ever met. But but you've said, 1953 01:50:46.720 --> 01:50:48.039 like I've ever read. 1954 01:50:49.399 --> 01:50:51.640 That I was saying. Finus agrees with one hundred percent 1955 01:50:52.239 --> 01:50:55.399 is what you said at the beginning, which is that 1956 01:50:57.920 --> 01:51:02.760 these things which you are calling energies are not attributes 1957 01:51:02.800 --> 01:51:07.119 of God in the sense of things that modify him 1958 01:51:07.239 --> 01:51:09.239 or exist in him to sink from his essence, but 1959 01:51:09.399 --> 01:51:12.720 rather there are things that show up in his works. 1960 01:51:13.239 --> 01:51:16.399 Saint Basil and Saint Gregorissa use the analogy of the 1961 01:51:16.520 --> 01:51:21.840 sun and its heat and its h right, So the sun, 1962 01:51:21.920 --> 01:51:25.479 the heat and its rays can be genuinely distinguished, but 1963 01:51:25.520 --> 01:51:27.439 they're not exactly the same. We don't believe that the 1964 01:51:27.520 --> 01:51:30.399 fore knowledge of God is exactly the same as the 1965 01:51:30.479 --> 01:51:32.000 wisdom of God, or the love of God, or the 1966 01:51:32.159 --> 01:51:34.960 justice of God. Like the equating the foregn knowledge of 1967 01:51:35.000 --> 01:51:36.800 God with the justice of God makes no sense. 1968 01:51:38.119 --> 01:51:41.279 Okay, so this is I want to get into that 1969 01:51:41.399 --> 01:51:45.199 argument in a minute, okay, and quick question, so I 1970 01:51:45.319 --> 01:51:47.520 know how to pace myself or what's left? How much 1971 01:51:47.560 --> 01:51:49.560 time do we have left on this? 1972 01:51:51.279 --> 01:51:53.439 I probably need to go pretty soon. We can set 1973 01:51:53.520 --> 01:51:56.399 up like a part two though, if you want but 1974 01:51:57.239 --> 01:51:59.199 you've been going for how long have we been going? 1975 01:52:00.079 --> 01:52:02.359 Then our hour and fifty minutes? 1976 01:52:02.359 --> 01:52:05.199 I think, okay, so let's say two hours and then 1977 01:52:05.239 --> 01:52:08.319 maybe we can pick up at a part two if 1978 01:52:08.359 --> 01:52:08.880 you want to do it. 1979 01:52:09.279 --> 01:52:12.720 Sure sounds good. Yeah, so I think which I was 1980 01:52:13.279 --> 01:52:16.159 trying to get out with the energy thing. Right, So 1981 01:52:16.399 --> 01:52:19.279 what a Coitas wants to deny, which I would want 1982 01:52:19.319 --> 01:52:21.439 to deny with them, is that that's something you picked 1983 01:52:21.640 --> 01:52:23.000 justice in four and knowledge. So let's go with that, 1984 01:52:23.399 --> 01:52:25.600 all right, I would want he would want to deny 1985 01:52:27.359 --> 01:52:34.279 that these things manifested in the world. Right, So let's 1986 01:52:34.319 --> 01:52:39.479 say the justice of the nation of sinners, or the 1987 01:52:39.800 --> 01:52:43.199 justice or the fore knowledge manifested in prophecy or whatever. 1988 01:52:44.079 --> 01:52:45.720 He would want to deny that these. 1989 01:52:47.680 --> 01:52:51.880 Manifestations are attributes existing in God in the way in 1990 01:52:51.920 --> 01:52:57.520 which I described quantities and qualities as existing in their subjects. Right, 1991 01:52:57.600 --> 01:52:59.439 does that make sense? In other words, they don't pose it. 1992 01:53:00.279 --> 01:53:03.199 What you just described, what Aquitans is holding with divine 1993 01:53:03.199 --> 01:53:04.560 simplicity is the same. 1994 01:53:04.680 --> 01:53:05.479 In this respect. 1995 01:53:05.880 --> 01:53:08.600 Neither of you seems to me want to say that 1996 01:53:08.720 --> 01:53:12.800 there is something in God distinct from the essence, which 1997 01:53:12.840 --> 01:53:15.359 is nonetheless makes God be a certain way. 1998 01:53:18.119 --> 01:53:22.439 Can we agree about that? As far as I understand 1999 01:53:22.479 --> 01:53:23.600 your meaning, I'm not sure. 2000 01:53:24.079 --> 01:53:26.680 There's no so in my soul, there's a little do 2001 01:53:26.840 --> 01:53:30.680 hickey if you like. The virtue of justice, which I 2002 01:53:30.800 --> 01:53:34.479 wasn't born with, it doesn't come with my soul, Please God, 2003 01:53:34.520 --> 01:53:36.159 I've acquired a little bit of it over the course 2004 01:53:36.159 --> 01:53:39.439 of the last thirty years, and it makes me be 2005 01:53:39.560 --> 01:53:43.199 in a certain way. And it's distinct from me. Right. 2006 01:53:43.359 --> 01:53:47.760 That's not what you mean by energies, right. What you 2007 01:53:47.880 --> 01:53:50.119 mean by energy in my case would be something like 2008 01:53:50.560 --> 01:53:53.239 I do something just right, and that shows you. 2009 01:53:55.800 --> 01:53:57.640 Most of the time, for example, what you. 2010 01:53:57.680 --> 01:53:59.760 Actually see is my just action. Am I getting that right? 2011 01:54:00.159 --> 01:54:02.680 Correct? For example, in the New Testament, when inner gaia 2012 01:54:02.840 --> 01:54:05.319 is used, it's it's for example, when Paul talks about 2013 01:54:05.319 --> 01:54:07.680 the operations of the spirit, right, So the energy of 2014 01:54:07.720 --> 01:54:09.960 the spirit is when he's talking about like the gifts 2015 01:54:10.000 --> 01:54:13.319 of the spirit. So when the spirit grants prophecy, when 2016 01:54:13.359 --> 01:54:16.439 he grants mercy to different gifts to the saints, the 2017 01:54:16.560 --> 01:54:19.399 charismatic gifts. I don't mean charismaticism, you know what I mean. 2018 01:54:20.439 --> 01:54:23.000 The word that's used there is inner gaya, which just 2019 01:54:23.079 --> 01:54:27.840 signifies divine operations or actions. Yeah, and sometimes yes, we 2020 01:54:27.920 --> 01:54:30.800 would say that if you're talking about the attributes the 2021 01:54:30.880 --> 01:54:33.279 love of God, we believe that is an energy, and 2022 01:54:33.439 --> 01:54:35.880 we even believe that the knowledge that we have that 2023 01:54:36.000 --> 01:54:40.039 God's essence is one is also an energetic truth that 2024 01:54:40.119 --> 01:54:42.920 we learned through vind revelation. Yeah. 2025 01:54:43.039 --> 01:54:45.800 So I if I'm trying to make sense of what 2026 01:54:45.880 --> 01:54:48.680 you're saying and transporting it into my categories, I think 2027 01:54:48.720 --> 01:54:50.319 I kind of sent to a lot of it. But 2028 01:54:50.399 --> 01:54:52.439 it's going to sound like this, So tell me if 2029 01:54:52.439 --> 01:54:57.319 you've got problems with this translation. So it seems as 2030 01:54:57.399 --> 01:55:00.720 though you want to say that the energy can refer 2031 01:55:00.800 --> 01:55:04.039 to when I speak of the energy of God's justice 2032 01:55:04.239 --> 01:55:07.199 or of his unity or whatever. What you mean is 2033 01:55:07.800 --> 01:55:10.399 not that there is an attribute distinct from the divine 2034 01:55:10.520 --> 01:55:14.640 essence which adheres in the divine essence, but rather one 2035 01:55:14.720 --> 01:55:17.079 of two things. And maybe you think that you said 2036 01:55:17.119 --> 01:55:18.600 the same thing. They don't sound the same to me. 2037 01:55:19.039 --> 01:55:19.199 Oh. 2038 01:55:19.520 --> 01:55:23.319 Thing one would be there's a work done in creation 2039 01:55:24.079 --> 01:55:27.920 which manifests that which I am calling God's justice right, 2040 01:55:27.960 --> 01:55:29.720 So that would be like the punishment of this sinner, 2041 01:55:31.359 --> 01:55:36.560 And the other one would be the content which I 2042 01:55:36.680 --> 01:55:38.600 am predicating of God. Right, So when I say it right, 2043 01:55:38.640 --> 01:55:41.840 so you've got thing one, that's this thing which happened 2044 01:55:41.920 --> 01:55:45.479 right here, the ciner got punished. And then there's thing too, 2045 01:55:45.600 --> 01:55:48.399 which is as a result of seeing this, I predicate 2046 01:55:49.920 --> 01:55:54.800 this concept that I have of justice of God. And 2047 01:55:54.880 --> 01:55:56.800 I don't want to say that this concept that I 2048 01:55:56.880 --> 01:56:00.439 have of justice is like a concept of God, but 2049 01:56:00.520 --> 01:56:02.279 I do want to say that I can predicate it 2050 01:56:02.319 --> 01:56:04.239 of Him. And so because you want to, on the 2051 01:56:04.319 --> 01:56:07.359 one hand, deny that what I've got in my mind 2052 01:56:07.439 --> 01:56:10.439 of justice equals God, but on the other hand, you 2053 01:56:10.560 --> 01:56:14.199 want to affirm that it gets to God somehow. You 2054 01:56:14.279 --> 01:56:15.720 call this an energy, and this is an energy in 2055 01:56:15.760 --> 01:56:19.279 a different sense from the actual work of damning the center. 2056 01:56:19.600 --> 01:56:20.720 Is that all sound fair? 2057 01:56:20.800 --> 01:56:26.119 So far? Well? I laid out three distinctions at the beginning, 2058 01:56:26.159 --> 01:56:28.720 where I was talking about the energies of God as 2059 01:56:28.800 --> 01:56:32.880 relating to eternal manifestation, the energies of God relating to creation, 2060 01:56:33.720 --> 01:56:36.600 and then some energies that let's just. 2061 01:56:36.600 --> 01:56:39.520 Stick with the things like justice and fore knowledge for 2062 01:56:39.560 --> 01:56:39.920 the moment. 2063 01:56:40.239 --> 01:56:43.039 Well, there's a sense in which I mean, you could 2064 01:56:43.039 --> 01:56:45.720 say God is even and that's where I wanted this 2065 01:56:45.800 --> 01:56:47.159 double distinction to show up. 2066 01:56:50.039 --> 01:56:54.720 Okay, well you get trinitarian stuff and leaving aside hypostatic 2067 01:56:54.840 --> 01:56:55.680 union stuff. 2068 01:56:55.399 --> 01:56:58.279 And all that. Well, but I want to stress for 2069 01:56:58.439 --> 01:57:00.399 us all these things are related, because you're not going 2070 01:57:00.479 --> 01:57:03.479 to have the essence energy distinction without the proper doctrine 2071 01:57:03.600 --> 01:57:07.159 of the Father as the ark and the right order theologiate. 2072 01:57:07.319 --> 01:57:11.000 So it's not like these things operate in in and 2073 01:57:11.840 --> 01:57:14.359 discreete from the other other doctrines. They all hang or 2074 01:57:14.399 --> 01:57:16.840 fall together. I'll bear that in mind. 2075 01:57:17.560 --> 01:57:20.600 And so tell me if I'm if my lumping things, 2076 01:57:20.920 --> 01:57:25.119 or if I if I'm saying something which would be 2077 01:57:25.159 --> 01:57:30.279 corrected by bringing in some of the other sides. So 2078 01:57:31.760 --> 01:57:33.000 what Acquittance would want to say? 2079 01:57:33.199 --> 01:57:33.319 Right? 2080 01:57:33.399 --> 01:57:36.960 So, in this case of understanding seeing God's justice and 2081 01:57:37.039 --> 01:57:40.000 predicating it of him, right, we'll you'll deny that there 2082 01:57:40.079 --> 01:57:44.479 is a what sit which is up there in God, 2083 01:57:44.640 --> 01:57:48.000 which is distinct from God's essence to which I am 2084 01:57:48.079 --> 01:57:51.079 referring when I say that God is just. What he 2085 01:57:51.119 --> 01:57:56.000 would affirm is that there are three things involved. There 2086 01:57:56.079 --> 01:57:59.319 is the action which is just, There is my concept 2087 01:57:59.399 --> 01:58:04.560 of justice, and there's the divine essence, which bears some 2088 01:58:04.680 --> 01:58:07.279 sort of resemblance to my concept. 2089 01:58:07.760 --> 01:58:10.119 Yeah, but it doesn't. And that's the whole point. Because 2090 01:58:10.319 --> 01:58:13.840 the things you had are particular, and they're discrete, and 2091 01:58:13.880 --> 01:58:16.119 they're related to things in time and space and history 2092 01:58:16.560 --> 01:58:20.479 and the absolutely simple essence which is supposedly identical to 2093 01:58:20.600 --> 01:58:24.039 divine justice, God's justice. There's no way to know that 2094 01:58:24.119 --> 01:58:26.880 that's what you're experiencing or bridging that gap, because all 2095 01:58:26.920 --> 01:58:29.399 you know is all you know is creative effects. Right. 2096 01:58:29.640 --> 01:58:31.720 So, but I mean so, but that's true of this 2097 01:58:31.840 --> 01:58:32.640 isn't just true of God? 2098 01:58:32.720 --> 01:58:32.800 Right? 2099 01:58:32.880 --> 01:58:35.560 So we know all things through their operations, right, I 2100 01:58:35.600 --> 01:58:39.159 don't have any direct access to you, right, to you 2101 01:58:40.560 --> 01:58:41.920 the operation of talking. 2102 01:58:41.840 --> 01:58:45.079 Right, that's how you and I know each other. But 2103 01:58:45.640 --> 01:58:49.319 it's not just created effects. In terms of knowing God, 2104 01:58:49.600 --> 01:58:52.199 and in terms of knowing God, it's beyond creative effects. 2105 01:58:52.239 --> 01:58:54.880 That was what was true generally for the Old Testament period, 2106 01:58:55.079 --> 01:58:58.840 signs and symbols. Now we see Christ face to face, 2107 01:58:58.920 --> 01:59:03.279 as Paul says and said, dudes, three, that's right. No, 2108 01:59:03.439 --> 01:59:05.359 you believe in the beatific vision. You don't believe we 2109 01:59:05.439 --> 01:59:06.479 see Christ face to face. 2110 01:59:09.159 --> 01:59:11.079 I believe that what it means to say that I 2111 01:59:11.159 --> 01:59:13.119 see Christ face to face now is different from what 2112 01:59:13.199 --> 01:59:14.720 it means to see Christ face to face in the 2113 01:59:14.760 --> 01:59:16.159 beertopic vision, if that's what you mean. 2114 01:59:16.479 --> 01:59:18.399 Right, because now it's only creative effects. 2115 01:59:20.920 --> 01:59:25.760 Yeah, so we're mixing issues again. I think one of 2116 01:59:25.800 --> 01:59:29.000 the things I know that is the justice my life, 2117 01:59:29.000 --> 01:59:30.680 and I know that this is big for Palamas and 2118 01:59:30.920 --> 01:59:31.319 the original. 2119 01:59:31.439 --> 01:59:33.680 How do you know that it's the justice of God 2120 01:59:34.239 --> 01:59:37.640 and not the foregnoledge or love of God that you're experiencing. 2121 01:59:39.600 --> 01:59:42.079 So Colonus would say, depending on what you mean by that, 2122 01:59:42.199 --> 01:59:43.279 that's uh. 2123 01:59:43.920 --> 01:59:46.199 Well, I think it matters whether I'm under God's justice. 2124 01:59:46.520 --> 01:59:54.199 Like, hold on, if you're talking about right, so I 2125 01:59:54.279 --> 01:59:56.920 can say this action right, So let's say that this 2126 01:59:57.079 --> 02:00:02.039 action here seems to exemplify uh, God's or or whatever. Right, 2127 02:00:02.119 --> 02:00:05.840 So the center gets failed like twenty times and gets 2128 02:00:05.920 --> 02:00:09.720 this huge insects of grace and conversion. Okay, what is 2129 02:00:09.800 --> 02:00:12.479 it that allows me to say that the name mercy 2130 02:00:12.560 --> 02:00:16.039 is most applicable to this situation? It would be because 2131 02:00:16.079 --> 02:00:18.760 what I see of this situation most maps of my 2132 02:00:18.840 --> 02:00:20.399 creaturely concept of mercy. 2133 02:00:21.359 --> 02:00:24.680 But to say that your creaturely concepts are analogous right 2134 02:00:25.000 --> 02:00:28.039 to something that is completely unlike the things that you 2135 02:00:28.199 --> 02:00:30.720 think you have. Like in other words, the divine justice 2136 02:00:30.800 --> 02:00:31.960 is not like human justice. 2137 02:00:32.079 --> 02:00:36.199 Right, of course I'm going to object to completely unlike 2138 02:00:36.359 --> 02:00:36.720 of course. 2139 02:00:36.880 --> 02:00:40.600 But so so it's analogous. It's an analogy. But the 2140 02:00:40.680 --> 02:00:42.800 thing that you that you're making an analogy to is 2141 02:00:42.880 --> 02:00:48.079 absolutely simple, that's right, and all and all the predicates 2142 02:00:48.119 --> 02:00:52.000 are actually identified. So how do you know that you're 2143 02:00:52.039 --> 02:00:55.760 actually experiencing one or the other because they're not really distinct. 2144 02:00:55.840 --> 02:00:58.159 Right, So it depends on what you mean by what 2145 02:00:58.319 --> 02:01:02.359 you're experiencing. Right, if you're saying that I'm experiencing God, right, 2146 02:01:02.439 --> 02:01:05.159 so if you're asking which part of God I'm experiencing it, 2147 02:01:05.319 --> 02:01:08.039 I'm saying that is experiencing any part of God, because 2148 02:01:08.079 --> 02:01:10.680 God doesn't have parts. But if you're asking why am 2149 02:01:10.720 --> 02:01:13.920 I applying this name to this manifestation, it's because this 2150 02:01:14.199 --> 02:01:19.239 manifestation captures more of this concept that I have than 2151 02:01:19.319 --> 02:01:22.000 of that concept. Yeah, I don't see a problem. 2152 02:01:21.800 --> 02:01:24.520 That bridge between the concept and the thing. There's no 2153 02:01:24.600 --> 02:01:27.439 bridge between the concept and the absolutely simple essence. You 2154 02:01:27.560 --> 02:01:30.840 never know that actual thing. You only know creative effects, 2155 02:01:31.119 --> 02:01:34.199 and you don't know I never You don't know if 2156 02:01:34.239 --> 02:01:36.880 your creative effects match up to this thing. How can they? 2157 02:01:40.079 --> 02:01:42.600 So this is why Palamas calls it atheism. 2158 02:01:43.319 --> 02:01:50.159 Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I'm not going to say repeat 2159 02:01:50.199 --> 02:01:52.039 what you said right before that last thing. 2160 02:01:53.760 --> 02:01:57.479 All that you experience in your life or the created 2161 02:01:57.560 --> 02:02:01.640 effects of this this super monad essence, you never experience 2162 02:02:02.119 --> 02:02:08.279 a direct example of God himself or God's justice within 2163 02:02:08.359 --> 02:02:11.359 time and space. You only experience creative effects of God. 2164 02:02:11.840 --> 02:02:13.760 And so when you talk about the love of God, 2165 02:02:14.000 --> 02:02:16.159 or the fore knowledge of God or the mercy of God, 2166 02:02:16.479 --> 02:02:19.319 you're not actually talking about something that you know that 2167 02:02:19.399 --> 02:02:23.880 you've experienced. You're only talking about a creaturely analogue that 2168 02:02:24.239 --> 02:02:27.159 that you hope matches up to this absolutely simple essence, 2169 02:02:27.520 --> 02:02:30.920 wherein all of the attributes are the exact same, So 2170 02:02:31.600 --> 02:02:32.399 it's meaningless. 2171 02:02:32.960 --> 02:02:35.159 The problem is the word I think that we're using 2172 02:02:35.840 --> 02:02:39.239 talk about in two different senses. Right, So there. 2173 02:02:40.760 --> 02:02:43.439 Doesn't work if absolutely divind simplicity is true, that's the 2174 02:02:43.479 --> 02:02:48.319 crux of the argument, because all of the things that 2175 02:02:48.359 --> 02:02:51.359 you're talking about are not like an absolutely simple essence. 2176 02:02:53.279 --> 02:02:56.279 One creaturely effect is just you're just interpreting a creaturely 2177 02:02:56.319 --> 02:03:03.199 effect compared to some other creaturely effect. Yeah, so figure 2178 02:03:03.199 --> 02:03:04.079 out where to start hearing again. 2179 02:03:04.119 --> 02:03:09.159 All right, So look, I just disagree with your claim, 2180 02:03:09.279 --> 02:03:10.880 and then we'll see if I can give a principle 2181 02:03:10.880 --> 02:03:12.800 of reason for disagree with it. I just disagree with 2182 02:03:12.880 --> 02:03:19.079 the claim that if X is limited and why is 2183 02:03:19.159 --> 02:03:23.279 infinite and per se rather than participate participated that it 2184 02:03:23.359 --> 02:03:26.600 follows that X is that there is no similarity whatsoever 2185 02:03:26.680 --> 02:03:27.840 between X and all you. 2186 02:03:28.159 --> 02:03:30.479 All you know is creative effects, and you never know 2187 02:03:30.600 --> 02:03:32.720 that thing itself, so you have no reference for it. 2188 02:03:34.079 --> 02:03:38.520 Yeah, when I say, let's let's try to give concrete examples, right. 2189 02:03:39.239 --> 02:03:40.920 That is the analogy andthis right. 2190 02:03:41.399 --> 02:03:44.800 Mm hmm, I'm not quite sure how you think these words, 2191 02:03:44.840 --> 02:03:46.520 So let me just try to give concrete examples, and 2192 02:03:46.600 --> 02:03:47.640 let's see where we part way. 2193 02:03:48.159 --> 02:03:51.319 The analogy andthis and aquitas analogae of being, right, is 2194 02:03:51.359 --> 02:03:54.159 that there's a we can look at the world, we 2195 02:03:54.239 --> 02:03:57.239 can see being. We can predicate that God is the 2196 02:03:57.399 --> 02:04:00.399 super being. But of course he doesn't have being in 2197 02:04:00.479 --> 02:04:03.039 the exact same way as everything else has being, because 2198 02:04:03.399 --> 02:04:06.239 the being in this world is composite. It's caused. The 2199 02:04:06.359 --> 02:04:09.600 being that God has is the super being that's uncaused 2200 02:04:10.119 --> 02:04:15.039 and not composite. Right, So there's there's an assumption of analogy, right, 2201 02:04:15.159 --> 02:04:19.640 and we're not using unibical predication. We're using analogy, right. 2202 02:04:19.720 --> 02:04:21.199 I Mean the idea is that's supposed to be the 2203 02:04:21.239 --> 02:04:25.399 same thing signified, but different mode of signification. And that's 2204 02:04:25.439 --> 02:04:26.520 your classic line. 2205 02:04:28.399 --> 02:04:28.520 Right. 2206 02:04:28.560 --> 02:04:30.119 So let me just try to give an example. 2207 02:04:30.640 --> 02:04:34.000 So when I say that you. 2208 02:04:34.680 --> 02:04:39.000 Are loving or whatever, right, so I don't have access 2209 02:04:40.479 --> 02:04:43.640 to the habit of love which is in your soul, 2210 02:04:45.000 --> 02:04:49.479 but I do have access to the actions by which 2211 02:04:49.720 --> 02:04:52.520 you work for the good of others, right, and so 2212 02:04:52.640 --> 02:04:57.119 on the basis of your doing these actions, I creditate 2213 02:04:57.479 --> 02:05:01.039 love of you. Where love means that in you by 2214 02:05:01.159 --> 02:05:03.319 virtue of which you will the good for others, and 2215 02:05:03.399 --> 02:05:04.399 you see you seek their good. 2216 02:05:05.039 --> 02:05:05.159 Right. 2217 02:05:06.279 --> 02:05:10.279 So and in us this that by which you will 2218 02:05:10.520 --> 02:05:13.479 and you seek work for the good of others, is 2219 02:05:13.560 --> 02:05:16.000 this extra little habit which is added on to your soul, 2220 02:05:16.039 --> 02:05:17.880 and which is different from the habit of wisdom, as 2221 02:05:17.960 --> 02:05:19.720 evidenced by the fact that you can have one without 2222 02:05:19.720 --> 02:05:20.000 the other. 2223 02:05:21.479 --> 02:05:23.079 We just don't use these categories. 2224 02:05:24.000 --> 02:05:28.680 I'm just trying to explain what, okay, And so when 2225 02:05:28.720 --> 02:05:31.760 I talk about God's having love, it would be the 2226 02:05:31.840 --> 02:05:34.600 same same sort of deal in this respect. And I 2227 02:05:34.640 --> 02:05:37.680 don't have access to God's love. I don't see inside 2228 02:05:37.760 --> 02:05:40.319 his essence. What I have access to, just like you said, 2229 02:05:40.399 --> 02:05:44.119 is are these manifestations I see God becoming man and 2230 02:05:44.199 --> 02:05:44.680 dying on the. 2231 02:05:44.680 --> 02:05:45.239 Cross for us. 2232 02:05:47.760 --> 02:05:51.800 I'm not quite done yet. And because of this right, 2233 02:05:51.960 --> 02:05:55.000 so I say when I say that God is has love, 2234 02:05:55.319 --> 02:05:57.479 is love, what I mean is that there is in 2235 02:05:57.640 --> 02:06:01.960 God that by which he does this act, which is 2236 02:06:02.119 --> 02:06:04.600 seeking the good, of seeking the good of others. It's 2237 02:06:04.720 --> 02:06:08.199 just that in this case, that by which he does 2238 02:06:08.279 --> 02:06:12.840 this operation is not an extra little what's it which 2239 02:06:12.920 --> 02:06:13.720 is added on to him? 2240 02:06:13.720 --> 02:06:14.439 It's just him. 2241 02:06:15.840 --> 02:06:19.359 And I can't fathom that. But that's what I means. 2242 02:06:19.479 --> 02:06:23.920 That's why I predicate the same word of me and 2243 02:06:24.359 --> 02:06:28.359 of you and of God. Yeah, analogic categories, that's fine, 2244 02:06:28.359 --> 02:06:31.680 But I understrying to make sense of what what we're saying, like, 2245 02:06:32.159 --> 02:06:35.199 why we think that it makes sense to apply the term, 2246 02:06:35.800 --> 02:06:38.199 uh loving, let's say to God. 2247 02:06:38.600 --> 02:06:43.159 But you're only looking at created analogs and none of 2248 02:06:43.199 --> 02:06:45.520 those things are the thing itself. So you don't actually 2249 02:06:45.560 --> 02:06:48.479 know that God has loved? Do I know that you 2250 02:06:48.560 --> 02:06:52.880 have love? Yeah? But but knowing that I have love, 2251 02:06:52.960 --> 02:06:55.399 doesn't mean that you know Godhill, because how do I 2252 02:06:55.760 --> 02:06:56.960 another creative effect? 2253 02:06:57.520 --> 02:06:59.000 How do I know that you have love. 2254 02:07:00.600 --> 02:07:03.279 Because you have a personal interaction with me and you're 2255 02:07:03.319 --> 02:07:04.039 in your doctrine. 2256 02:07:04.039 --> 02:07:08.319 It's not, Well, what do I have to have a 2257 02:07:08.359 --> 02:07:10.359 personal interaction with you to know that you have love? 2258 02:07:12.239 --> 02:07:15.319 Well, you might hear secondhand from somebody, But the point 2259 02:07:15.399 --> 02:07:19.399 is that that we're not we're talking about God himself. 2260 02:07:19.560 --> 02:07:21.560 Right. Well, no, but I'm saying that both of these 2261 02:07:21.640 --> 02:07:24.520 things right, So it can be right soon case of 2262 02:07:24.600 --> 02:07:26.520 you and me. Right, it can be the case that 2263 02:07:26.560 --> 02:07:28.920 I see you doing something good to another, or I 2264 02:07:28.960 --> 02:07:30.640 can see you doing something good to me, like taking 2265 02:07:30.680 --> 02:07:32.800 these two hours out of your day to talk to me. Right, 2266 02:07:34.159 --> 02:07:36.880 And both of these give me right allow me to 2267 02:07:36.920 --> 02:07:40.800 predicate with you something which I don't directly see. But 2268 02:07:40.880 --> 02:07:44.119 how do you know that that is God showing love 2269 02:07:44.199 --> 02:07:48.880 to you as opposed to somebody else? No, if God 2270 02:07:49.000 --> 02:07:51.760 is an absolutely simple essence, you don't know what. You 2271 02:07:51.840 --> 02:07:53.760 don't know that you're actually experiencing any of these things. 2272 02:07:53.800 --> 02:07:56.840 You can only do analogical predication because of the effect 2273 02:07:57.199 --> 02:07:59.680 and the thing which I am seeing, which who don't know. 2274 02:08:00.039 --> 02:08:03.239 You don't know that that created effect is an action 2275 02:08:03.399 --> 02:08:05.399 of love, because you don't know God himself. 2276 02:08:06.600 --> 02:08:10.319 But I think you're getting the sequence of questions backwards, right, 2277 02:08:10.359 --> 02:08:13.279 So what I mean by love just is right that 2278 02:08:13.560 --> 02:08:15.159 by which you do this kind. 2279 02:08:15.039 --> 02:08:17.960 Of operation, you don't know that God is doing that. 2280 02:08:18.840 --> 02:08:22.000 I don't I mean, I don't know that this operation 2281 02:08:22.119 --> 02:08:23.720 that I see in front of me is an active love. 2282 02:08:24.199 --> 02:08:25.960 Is that what you're saying, You don't know that God 2283 02:08:26.159 --> 02:08:28.880 is doing that act of love because God is outside 2284 02:08:28.920 --> 02:08:32.079 of time and space and absolutely simple according to this doctrine. 2285 02:08:32.279 --> 02:08:36.880 So what you're saying, it could be for all I know, 2286 02:08:36.920 --> 02:08:37.840 it could be somebody else. 2287 02:08:38.319 --> 02:08:41.560 Maybe maybe God is exacting justice on you. You don't know, 2288 02:08:44.920 --> 02:08:52.279 because atributes are the exact same as the essence, and 2289 02:08:52.359 --> 02:08:55.000 all the attributes are synonymous with one another. You never 2290 02:08:55.199 --> 02:08:57.960 know God or what you're actually experiencing within history is 2291 02:08:58.039 --> 02:08:58.479 from God. 2292 02:09:00.199 --> 02:09:02.239 I don't see how that follows at all. Right, So 2293 02:09:02.359 --> 02:09:04.920 it seems as though it's perfectly possible for one and 2294 02:09:05.039 --> 02:09:07.960 the same form that I just on the level of creatures. 2295 02:09:08.000 --> 02:09:10.119 Forget God for the moment, just on the level of creature, 2296 02:09:10.159 --> 02:09:12.119 it's perfectly possible for one and the same, but the 2297 02:09:12.239 --> 02:09:15.960 reasoning creatures hold on. It's perfectly possible for one in 2298 02:09:16.000 --> 02:09:19.159 the same form to be responsible for different operations, unless 2299 02:09:19.199 --> 02:09:22.319 for different manifestations, and to give does that work for God? 2300 02:09:22.800 --> 02:09:25.239 You can't. You can't reason that up to God like 2301 02:09:25.359 --> 02:09:27.479 Thomas want to do. I'm telling you what I'm trying 2302 02:09:27.560 --> 02:09:29.840 to argue is that the analogia doesn't work in your 2303 02:09:29.920 --> 02:09:33.600 view because God is absolutely simple. If you believe in 2304 02:09:33.640 --> 02:09:37.079 the essen synergy distinction, it would work. No, no, but 2305 02:09:39.000 --> 02:09:44.680 you're gonna have to repeat but the divine essence. Therefore, 2306 02:09:44.800 --> 02:09:47.359 within time and space, you don't actually experience God's love 2307 02:09:47.479 --> 02:09:49.560 or God's mercy. You don't know what you're experiencing if 2308 02:09:49.560 --> 02:09:52.079 you're experiencing God at all, because all you experience in 2309 02:09:52.159 --> 02:09:57.840 creative effects. There's no analogue between what's in your mind 2310 02:09:58.079 --> 02:10:00.359 and the absolutely simple essence Word. All the acts, tributes 2311 02:10:00.399 --> 02:10:03.159 are melded into one giant monead. I don't know. 2312 02:10:04.359 --> 02:10:05.960 Bear with me for a second. Tell me which part 2313 02:10:06.000 --> 02:10:11.000 of this picture you're being bothered by. Okay, so I 2314 02:10:11.159 --> 02:10:15.880 see this. Let's say I'm Adam. Okay, and let's say 2315 02:10:15.880 --> 02:10:18.840 I know whether let's say, by revelation whatever that God 2316 02:10:19.079 --> 02:10:22.039 just made this place, and he gave me all this 2317 02:10:22.199 --> 02:10:24.800 stuff up to and including this helpmate who's pretty awesome. 2318 02:10:25.399 --> 02:10:26.720 Uh, for my good. 2319 02:10:27.840 --> 02:10:32.960 That's definitionally an act of love, right, I'm how you 2320 02:10:33.079 --> 02:10:35.199 know that God did that out of love. Let's say 2321 02:10:35.199 --> 02:10:35.760 God said that. 2322 02:10:37.720 --> 02:10:40.439 Well, now you're relying on that, which is what we 2323 02:10:40.439 --> 02:10:42.760 would agree. Yeah, you should rely on revelation. You can't 2324 02:10:42.800 --> 02:10:44.199 rely on all these creative effects. 2325 02:10:45.079 --> 02:10:48.800 Okay, let me see if I can restate it. So 2326 02:10:50.119 --> 02:10:52.319 to say that something is an act of love, right, 2327 02:10:52.319 --> 02:10:55.920 it means that it is done conscious right, It's not 2328 02:10:56.079 --> 02:10:58.199 done randomly, It's done. 2329 02:10:58.239 --> 02:11:00.640 Deliberately for the good of another. 2330 02:11:03.359 --> 02:11:07.199 Yeah, okay, And so what you're asking is, how is 2331 02:11:07.239 --> 02:11:10.600 it that I can tell that this act that is 2332 02:11:10.840 --> 02:11:13.199 the creation of the world around me is an act 2333 02:11:13.239 --> 02:11:15.680 which was deliberate and which was done for my good. 2334 02:11:19.399 --> 02:11:20.720 I mean, I don't know how many times I can 2335 02:11:20.760 --> 02:11:23.319 restate the argument. It's because it's a very simple argue. 2336 02:11:23.319 --> 02:11:24.600 I'm not trying to do anything. 2337 02:11:24.800 --> 02:11:26.319 Are you denying that? I just want to guess right now. 2338 02:11:26.479 --> 02:11:29.920 No, I believe that God created the world in love, absolutely, 2339 02:11:30.000 --> 02:11:34.079 But that's because there's a direct bridge between God in 2340 02:11:34.159 --> 02:11:34.720 the world. 2341 02:11:35.000 --> 02:11:37.399 That I was asking, though, Right, So I'm just saying 2342 02:11:37.560 --> 02:11:40.560 this thing out here. Maybe this is the trouble. 2343 02:11:40.760 --> 02:11:40.880 Right. 2344 02:11:40.920 --> 02:11:44.640 So you're saying that you can only know whether something 2345 02:11:45.359 --> 02:11:48.920 counts as an act of love if I have some 2346 02:11:49.000 --> 02:11:52.520 sort of direct, independent access to the source from which 2347 02:11:52.560 --> 02:11:56.039 it sprang. And I'm saying that works exactly the opposite way, 2348 02:11:56.399 --> 02:12:00.439 and that I assume that I infer you like that 2349 02:12:00.600 --> 02:12:03.520 there is a source from which it sprang if I 2350 02:12:03.720 --> 02:12:05.239 see the operation. 2351 02:12:06.039 --> 02:12:06.159 Right. 2352 02:12:06.239 --> 02:12:08.319 So, I don't have any direct access to your love, 2353 02:12:08.399 --> 02:12:10.640 and I never will. All that I have access to 2354 02:12:11.039 --> 02:12:14.039 is your operations of love. And I know that whenever 2355 02:12:14.079 --> 02:12:16.840 there is an operation, there is corresponding to it something 2356 02:12:16.960 --> 02:12:19.760 by virtue of which this operation happened. And that's something 2357 02:12:19.880 --> 02:12:23.079 I call the happen of love. And it's exactly I mean, God, 2358 02:12:23.119 --> 02:12:25.359 It's just that in the case of God, that habit 2359 02:12:25.439 --> 02:12:25.720 isn't a. 2360 02:12:25.760 --> 02:12:30.000 Happen You're just stating the position. You're not addressing the point, 2361 02:12:30.079 --> 02:12:33.479 which is that the God that you're talking about is 2362 02:12:34.000 --> 02:12:38.600 absolutely simple and all the action identified. Right. 2363 02:12:38.680 --> 02:12:41.039 But what I'm trying to say is to call this 2364 02:12:41.199 --> 02:12:44.000 act an act of love, I don't need to already 2365 02:12:44.159 --> 02:12:46.479 know what it sprang from the direction of inference goes 2366 02:12:46.520 --> 02:12:49.239 the other way. It seems as though you're saying, in 2367 02:12:49.479 --> 02:12:51.239 order you know that this is an act of love, 2368 02:12:51.720 --> 02:12:56.000 I have to first I have access to that from which. 2369 02:12:57.000 --> 02:13:00.239 You're reasoning up from creatures, and you're saying creaturely loves us, 2370 02:13:00.319 --> 02:13:03.760 that there's some ultimately divine love, and I'm saying that 2371 02:13:03.880 --> 02:13:07.560 that doesn't work, because, for one, what you say God 2372 02:13:07.720 --> 02:13:10.479 is in terms of absolute divine simplicity bears no resemblance 2373 02:13:10.560 --> 02:13:12.399 to the creaturely love that you're trying to make it 2374 02:13:12.439 --> 02:13:13.039 analogous to. 2375 02:13:14.640 --> 02:13:17.920 And that's just what I fail to see, because it 2376 02:13:18.000 --> 02:13:21.119 seems like the reason all the actions your idea for 2377 02:13:21.239 --> 02:13:24.880 me God good for me, because all of the attributes 2378 02:13:24.920 --> 02:13:27.920 are identified with the divine essence and the distinctions are 2379 02:13:27.960 --> 02:13:28.920 only creaturely. 2380 02:13:29.520 --> 02:13:31.720 So if the distinctions are only creaturely, you never know 2381 02:13:32.239 --> 02:13:35.039 if the creaturely idea in your head actually matches up 2382 02:13:35.119 --> 02:13:38.079 to the absolutely simple essence that it's supposed to mirror. 2383 02:13:40.319 --> 02:13:42.479 Let's see, there's another way I can do this. It 2384 02:13:42.560 --> 02:13:46.560 seems to me that you're what you're presupposing here is 2385 02:13:46.680 --> 02:13:52.119 that in order for a predication of a term to 2386 02:13:53.159 --> 02:13:58.800 be truly predicated of a subject, the term has to 2387 02:13:58.920 --> 02:14:03.319 be some morphic in content with some discrete reality in 2388 02:14:03.399 --> 02:14:03.880 the subject. 2389 02:14:04.119 --> 02:14:04.439 All right. 2390 02:14:04.439 --> 02:14:06.720 So in other words, in order for me to say 2391 02:14:07.920 --> 02:14:12.560 that you are just, there has to be something in 2392 02:14:12.720 --> 02:14:17.479 you which is has just something real, something distinct from 2393 02:14:17.479 --> 02:14:19.119 all the other the rest of the parts of you, 2394 02:14:20.760 --> 02:14:23.760 which has just what I mean by the word justice 2395 02:14:24.239 --> 02:14:26.079 and nothing else. Are you committed to that. 2396 02:14:30.720 --> 02:14:34.840 I'm kind of getting a little flustered here, not because 2397 02:14:35.279 --> 02:14:37.279 I just I think we're going around and around in circles. 2398 02:14:37.319 --> 02:14:41.359 Because you're just restating what analogical predication is, and I'm 2399 02:14:42.560 --> 02:14:45.600 asking you to explain how you can really predicate a 2400 02:14:45.720 --> 02:14:48.920 god if all of the attributes of God and the 2401 02:14:49.039 --> 02:14:52.560 names of God are absolutely identical to the divine essence and. 2402 02:14:52.600 --> 02:14:54.920 You and I'm doing my best to explain that, but 2403 02:14:54.920 --> 02:14:55.399 I'm just trying to. 2404 02:14:55.399 --> 02:14:58.520 Make sure that you're just restating what analogical predication is, 2405 02:14:58.600 --> 02:14:59.319 and I know what it is. 2406 02:14:59.720 --> 02:15:02.720 So I'm just asking you to agree with me or 2407 02:15:02.760 --> 02:15:04.239 disagree as I go, so I know where I need 2408 02:15:04.319 --> 02:15:08.520 to need to set up my my battle lines. Are 2409 02:15:09.079 --> 02:15:12.560 you committed to saying that the in order for true 2410 02:15:12.560 --> 02:15:17.039 predication to happen. The formal content of my the termine 2411 02:15:17.039 --> 02:15:21.880 predicating has to be exactly co extensive with a real thing, 2412 02:15:24.000 --> 02:15:24.520 the subject. 2413 02:15:25.159 --> 02:15:27.399 We don't believe in unibical predication. 2414 02:15:27.960 --> 02:15:31.720 Okay, So if that's the case, why can't it be 2415 02:15:32.399 --> 02:15:37.079 that two of my terms should have a formal content 2416 02:15:37.199 --> 02:15:43.439 which is less then, uh than they're referent to which 2417 02:15:43.439 --> 02:15:44.279 I'm applying. 2418 02:15:44.039 --> 02:15:47.520 Them, Because the reference, namely God in this case, is 2419 02:15:47.800 --> 02:15:51.159 completely different because he's absolutely simple, and all of the 2420 02:15:51.239 --> 02:15:52.840 predicates are this are identical. 2421 02:15:56.319 --> 02:15:59.199 Here we are going in circles. Okay, let's see if 2422 02:15:59.239 --> 02:15:59.960 I can try this another one. 2423 02:16:01.199 --> 02:16:04.199 And by the way, it doesn't work either to say 2424 02:16:04.319 --> 02:16:07.039 let's start with creaturely love and then reason up because 2425 02:16:07.079 --> 02:16:09.319 we all know what love is. No, we don't. In fact, 2426 02:16:09.359 --> 02:16:12.760 I would again that's a classical foundationalist assumption from this 2427 02:16:12.920 --> 02:16:15.880 kind of epistemology that we would reject. You don't have 2428 02:16:16.039 --> 02:16:20.399 a clear idea of something like self evident maxims or 2429 02:16:20.439 --> 02:16:22.479 something like this that you can then reason up to 2430 02:16:22.600 --> 02:16:25.520 build up to God. In fact, if there's no way 2431 02:16:25.560 --> 02:16:30.159 to understand those maxims or those foundations epistemologically or logically 2432 02:16:30.279 --> 02:16:33.040 or whatever without presupposing God's existence. 2433 02:16:34.399 --> 02:16:37.559 Well, that's a whole other argument. Do you want to 2434 02:16:37.600 --> 02:16:39.959 keep on going with analogy for a better or should 2435 02:16:39.959 --> 02:16:40.719 we just I'm. 2436 02:16:40.559 --> 02:16:44.239 Gonna have to go. Let's take some super so people 2437 02:16:44.280 --> 02:16:46.639 who are listening, if you want to take if you 2438 02:16:46.680 --> 02:16:49.639 want to ask questions, I'm sure this will take a 2439 02:16:49.680 --> 02:16:54.319 few minutes, but you can ask your super chat questions. Now. 2440 02:16:54.399 --> 02:16:59.440 We already have a couple here, one from Gilaimos Russius 2441 02:16:59.479 --> 02:17:03.520 for five dollar. He says, the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, 2442 02:17:03.559 --> 02:17:09.159 the Holygos uncreated, not three uncreated, but one uncreated Athenationian creed. Actually, 2443 02:17:09.440 --> 02:17:12.840 even Rome admits that the Athenaian creed was not composed 2444 02:17:12.879 --> 02:17:16.360 by Athenatius. It's a later forgery, and the Orthodox Church 2445 02:17:16.399 --> 02:17:19.040 does not accept the Athnician creed. But yes, we agreed 2446 02:17:19.079 --> 02:17:23.040 that all three of the persons are uncreated. Gillie Mus 2447 02:17:23.200 --> 02:17:27.239 Russius again for five dollars. When the peraclet cometh, whom 2448 02:17:27.239 --> 02:17:28.879 I will send to you from the Father, the spirit 2449 02:17:28.920 --> 02:17:32.799 of truth, who proceeds from the Father, right proceeds from 2450 02:17:32.840 --> 02:17:35.440 the Father, is a statement of our in our view, 2451 02:17:35.559 --> 02:17:39.120 hypostetic origin, and the Father is the sole archae is 2452 02:17:39.200 --> 02:17:41.600 the only source of the Spirit. Jesus says he will 2453 02:17:41.639 --> 02:17:44.559 send the Spirit into time and history. All Orthodox writers 2454 02:17:44.639 --> 02:17:48.120 believe in the mission of the Spirit being sent by Jesus. 2455 02:17:48.319 --> 02:17:50.920 This is why began the debate making the distinction between 2456 02:17:51.520 --> 02:17:54.319 economia or the mission of the Spirit within history, the 2457 02:17:54.399 --> 02:17:58.680 eternal manifestation of the Spirit, which applies the Augustinian psychological 2458 02:17:58.760 --> 02:18:03.200 analogy in Saint Gregor. Almost the Sun eternally manifest the Spirit. 2459 02:18:04.719 --> 02:18:08.159 But then in terms of hypostatic origins, the Father alone 2460 02:18:08.280 --> 02:18:11.600 is the arka soul and cause of the persons in 2461 02:18:11.680 --> 02:18:16.639 our view? Are there any more super chats? If not, 2462 02:18:16.840 --> 02:18:20.760 I think we will call it to a close, give 2463 02:18:20.799 --> 02:18:23.920 them a few minutes. Yeah, man, this was This was 2464 02:18:24.000 --> 02:18:28.319 pretty intense, pretty heated, pretty pretty deep stuff. I appreciate 2465 02:18:29.079 --> 02:18:31.719 doing it, and if we get a few more, appreciate 2466 02:18:31.760 --> 02:18:34.440 the opportunity. Yeah, if we get a few more super chats, 2467 02:18:34.440 --> 02:18:36.840 I'll split the money with you. But I go not 2468 02:18:36.959 --> 02:18:39.479 ending about that. Well, I always do that with guests. 2469 02:18:40.680 --> 02:18:43.159 Any of you, theo nerds out there, won't ask questions, 2470 02:18:44.399 --> 02:18:48.680 send us some money. What we do we do? Two hours? 2471 02:18:49.760 --> 02:18:52.959 A little bit of her Okay, all right, well, I'm 2472 02:18:52.959 --> 02:18:55.000 not seeing any more super chats. So I guess we'll 2473 02:18:55.040 --> 02:18:57.799 call it a close, and thank you doctor fine Gold, 2474 02:18:58.760 --> 02:19:02.840 very eloquent, very good at explicating his positions, good defender 2475 02:19:02.920 --> 02:19:07.200 of Tomism. We will think about this spatimistic heresies, but 2476 02:19:08.360 --> 02:19:10.840 let's do on this for a while and uh we'll 2477 02:19:10.879 --> 02:19:12.280 come back with maybe a part two. 2478 02:19:13.079 --> 02:19:15.280 All right, well, thank you, all right, God bless you. 2479 02:19:15.680 --> 02:19:17.280 Thank you Jack too. Man