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Speaker 1: Hey, Michael Steel podcast listeners. Michael Steele here with another

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quick take from the Michael Steel Podcast. Check out What's

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going on right now. One of the things that I

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picked up in this book very early on, because I

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look for for things like this as a telltale sign

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about the individual that otherwise would may not be noticed

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in other narratives. And it was really right in the

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prologue where you you talked about being, you know, a

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little bit of a reformer, you wanted to change the way,

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and I identify with that as the former chairman of

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a party that could use some reforms, you know, I

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I identify with that narrative and that that desire to

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look at what is and see to you again to

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what you're saying, the hopeful side, the possibilities of what

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can be in terms of how even in the diplomatic space,

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we can improve upon these relationships in a way that

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inure to the benefit certainly of the US, but also

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to our allies and our opponents. How how have you

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found how did you find reforming the process of diplomacy

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in your work, particularly doing your two tours at Ukraine

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and having to deal with Russia, for example, stimulating frustrating successful.

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Speaker 2: What I'm not sure we've actually entered the period of reform.

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I would agree with that, So, I mean, there have

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been changes, changes on the margins, but I think that

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you're right, the State Department needs to reform because we

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are essentially still a service, you know, from the nineteen fifties,

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which was you know, a white boys club. Neither of

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us did in and you know, the makeup of the

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families was different, and I think, you know, a lot

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of personnel things need to be changed. But I think

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we also need to take a look at what are

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the challenges that we face in twenty twenty two, in

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twenty thirty two, and what are the tools that we

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have to address those challenges. And I think we need

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to do a real deep dive into some of these issues.

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Some of it you know, structural and personnel and all

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of that stuff, and that's hard enough, but I think

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some of the other things are you know, what of

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the old tools I mean I think of you know,

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the Cold War radios like VOA and America and Radio

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for Europe. I think those are still really good tools

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because in some ways, ironically they can sometimes be more

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more reliable, uh than what comes over on social media

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because those networks can be taken down pretty quick. But

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we also need to do the new stuff and we

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are trying to, but it also comes with you know,

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state department. It's government, lots of layers of approval, and

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it's hard to be nimble. And in this environment where

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you've got you know there there aren't deadlines anymore. There's

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just a constant news environment. So we need to be

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out there as nimble as everybody else. So that's just

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one area that we need to take a hard look

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at and we need to resource. And I think what

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we need to do is not only not only because

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we want to tell the American story to audiences overseas,

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because that is so vitally important and we need to

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do a better better job of it, but we also

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need to tell the story of what we do to

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the American people because I don't think people understand what

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diplomats do because it's kind of quiet profession, all things

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going well. You never hear about us, and that's sort

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of how it should be. But it's hard to build

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up support, you know, in the American public in Congress,

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and why would they vote for additional resources if there's

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you know, not the same kind of support as if

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you know part of the helicopter is being built in

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every every state of the Union. So I think we

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need to do a better job of telling our story

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and getting support among the American people, because what we

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do is we are the front lines so that hopefully

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we never have to use our military. If we're successful,

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we would never have to use the military. And I

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think we need to explain how we how we help

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companies get contracts overseas, creating jobs in America, profits in America,

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how we how we bolster American security working with of

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our colleagues and d O D and other security agencies,

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and how we keep you know, our political alliances and

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partnerships going so that the world is more free, which

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makes us more free.

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Speaker 1: So in the in the in a little bit of

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time we have left before I let you scoot onto

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other more important things. Uh, let's let's talk about where

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we are right now with Ukraine. You have a unique

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experience with Ukraine. How are you how do you make

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sense of current events in Ukraine? What do you see

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the stakes are for Ukraine and for Europe and for

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the US at this point, h and did you have

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some sense, some prediction that yeah, this is where we're

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going to end up if A, B and C don't

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come together.

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Speaker 2: I knew and actually write about this in the book.

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I knew that Plutin was going to test us again

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because we did not sufficiently deter him in two thousand

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and eight and Georgia twenty fourteen. In Ukraine, I didn't

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anticipate that it would be twenty twenty two in Ukraine.

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I thought that the war that he kept on going

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for the last eight years in Ukraine's East and the

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Dambas was going to be enough for him. But I

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was wrong. But I'm not surprised that he is testing

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the West, and now in retrospect, I'm not surprised that

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he is going after Ukraine because, as you know, his

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original goal was all of Ukraine, and my own view

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is it probably still is his goal. You know that

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he will try to get whatever he can now and

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regroup and go for it again if we let him,

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which is why Ukraine must prevail in this battle. So

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the stakes for Ukraine, you know, it's their country, it's

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their families, it's their freedom, really really clear, and they

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are fighting so hard and they've got Zelenski, you know,

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the Winston Churchill.

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Speaker 1: The man is amazing, amazing, he is amazing.

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Speaker 2: But he reflects to Ukrainian people. I mean, you can

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see it in their military, in the Territorial Defense forces,

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and you know, every grandma who's putting together a Molotov cocktail,

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it's amazing. And so they know what they're fighting for.

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And Putin has told us, he told us on the

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eve of the war that he's going to keep on

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going because there are other countries he has an eye

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on that, you know, it is easier to stop. It

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is better to stop Putin in Ukraine than to let

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him keep on going. And I would say that his

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stakes are even higher than that because the international rules

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based order does not work for Putin. He cannot compete

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in the world that was constructed after World War two.

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Cliances and everything else, he can't. And so what he's

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trying to do is create a world where might makes right.

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And so you know, if he gets away with it,

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just as he did before, he'll keep on going. And

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others other dictators are watching because that works for them too.

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It doesn't work for us. We need a world that

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you know, is secure, and therefore prosperous and free. I'm

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not saying that the rules based order that we've had

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since World War Two doesn't require some adjustments. Everything does

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after a you know, seventy plus years, and I think,

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you know, this is this is the moment. You know,

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we're going to look at this as a pre February

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twenty fourth world and a post of February twenty fourth world.

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How do we meet this challenge, not just in Ukraine

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but overall so that people like Putin don't write the

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rules for how we in America live our lives.

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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, thanks so much for listening today. Please go

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to Apple Podcasts and give us a five star review. Okay,

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give us two five star reviews. I love it or

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it catch us on stitch your iHeart, tune in or

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wherever you get that podcast thing on. You know how

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that goes? Peace out?

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Speaker 3: What was it like to cover President Donald Trump? Hi?

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I'm Deborah J. Saunders, former White House correspondent for the

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Las Vegas Review Journal. I was not one of the

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stars you'd see in the front two rows of the

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briefing room. I was in the back of the room

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or standing in the aisles before I got a seat.

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It was not fake news, it was my life. I

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get up in the morning and see what the most

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powerful men in the world wrote on Twitter overnight, are

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blurted out during a call in to a morning news show,

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then try to make sense of it all. I should

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give a warning. There is adult language, although not necessarily

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from the most of adults covering the Trump White House

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feels much better in the rear view mirror. Missus trailing

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Trump Notes from the Back of the Briefing Room, premiering

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June fourteenth on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you

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listen to podcasts.