WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:05.799 Meaning a light man like this man letting butterfly flapping 2 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:07.960 his wing big down in a forest. Man, it gonna 3 00:00:07.960 --> 00:00:11.080 cause the tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. Man, 4 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:12.919 nobody seen it. Nobody else. 5 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:17.679 See. 6 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:20.920 You don't need to know many like you followed another 7 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:25.160 story and you got back in fact, that man got 8 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:26.239 black to name on the panel. 9 00:00:26.359 --> 00:00:36.799 Man, man, you don't don't matter many All right, Doctor 10 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:38.640 Ed Dutton, Welcome back to the Jay Burden Show. How 11 00:00:38.679 --> 00:00:39.159 are you doing. 12 00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:41.000 Hello, good to see you again. I'm going to see you. 13 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:45.320 Again, definitely glad to have you back on. So, in 14 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:49.079 the time since we spoke last, you've released a new 15 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:52.039 book on a subject I am personally very interested in, 16 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:55.840 that is Quakers. So where we get into the meat 17 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:59.039 of it. What interested you about the subject? 18 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:04.319 Well, what sparked it was there was a particular organization 19 00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:08.560 called something like the Center for Countering Digital Hate. And 20 00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:12.400 who's funding this organization? Well, a lot of your right 21 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:15.599 aid friends, a lot of your very online right wing. 22 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:19.239 Friends, are likely to say, uh, it's the Jews, the Jews, 23 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:22.359 it's this, it's this, It's this knee jerk reaction that 24 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:25.079 you get if you end up due to due to 25 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:27.480 the Internet and due to the perization of society and a. 26 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:30.359 Right wing echo chamber. And yeah, there's a degree to 27 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:34.000 which that's true. But there's also other groups that are 28 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:41.000 funding it, such as Roundtree and what are they Well, 29 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:45.319 they are a Quaker company that makes chocolate and sweets 30 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:47.480 and things like that. And there are other groups that 31 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:51.079 were funding it as well, and these were also Quaker groups. 32 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:55.640 And actually the influence that the Quakers kind of fly 33 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:58.640 under the radar when it comes to people that are 34 00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:00.640 into conspiracy theories and they want to look at this 35 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:04.680 idea there's a conspiracy of rich, influential people that are 36 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:08.840 funding the left and trying to destroy Western civilization and whatever. 37 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:11.479 And they always talk about Jewish interests. Of course, your 38 00:02:11.479 --> 00:02:13.879 friend has heard of the Rothschilds, of course, but has 39 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:17.919 he heard of Barclay's Bank, Has he heard of Gurney's Bank? 40 00:02:18.439 --> 00:02:21.800 Has he heard of Lloyd's Bank? And all of these 41 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:26.879 organizations are Quaker, and in particular, Cadbury and Rowntree do 42 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:30.159 a great deal to fund left wing, left wing stuff 43 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:34.000 and they are Quaker. And so I thought, why is 44 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:36.960 it that this group just because they come across as 45 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:39.360 pat they talk about being pacifist, and they talk about 46 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:41.680 and all all this kind of thing. Nobody really bothers 47 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:46.240 about them, but they should because their influence on basically 48 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:50.080 subversion that there isn't There isn't a left wing campaign 49 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:53.319 in the last three hundred years really that hasn't had 50 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:57.360 Quakers behind it. And all they really do is left 51 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:00.639 wing campaigns. If you compare them to Jewish people, there 52 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:03.960 are many Jews that have contributed to right wing kind 53 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:09.479 of ideas. Benjamin Dosraally, the arch imperialist was Jewish, or 54 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:12.360 Hernstein and Murray, Well, they look at race differences and 55 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:15.280 so forth. Well, Hernstein was Jewish. And there are many 56 00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:18.120 Jews that have won Nobel Prizes for science and so 57 00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:20.639 forth and have contributed a great deal to Western civilization. 58 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.879 But with the Quakers, all you really have is left 59 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:27.039 wing subversion. So why is nobody focusing on them? So 60 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:28.560 that's kind of what inspired. 61 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:31.759 Well And I mean to that point, I believe even 62 00:03:32.039 --> 00:03:37.080 relatively large charities like oxfam as as far as I understand, 63 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:40.879 some Quaker roots to it. And in the US, this 64 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:44.080 history is equally as long. I mean, you have sort 65 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.520 of conical you know, elements to this, like for instance, 66 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:49.759 The whole reason that my ethnic group got brought to 67 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:52.960 America is because they needed someone to fight the Indians 68 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:56.280 because the Quakers wouldn't do. But you have much more 69 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:59.639 serious instances like even the even the New England Puritans 70 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:03.199 couldn't stand these people. They kept kicking them out because 71 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:04.719 they were impossible to be around. 72 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:07.039 This is a very good point. So let's take what 73 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:09.479 Let's take one point after the other. So what ethnic 74 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:10.840 group are you talking about? By the way that it's 75 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:11.560 your group. 76 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:16.279 You call us a Scott's Irish. Here we're border What. 77 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:19.279 Was what was going on during the period when Benjamin 78 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:22.839 Franklin was living in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania was founded by Penn. 79 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:26.199 Penn was a Quaker convert from a very wealthy father. 80 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:30.959 He in he had his Charles, the King, Charles second, 81 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:34.480 the restored King, owed all this money to Penn's father 82 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:37.319 within Penn's father, and so this was this very wealthy 83 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:39.879 man goes down into Pennsylvania and what is now Delaware 84 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:43.160 and he founds this this Quaker colony, and then we 85 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:45.160 are under Quaker rules. I think there was the death 86 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:47.920 penalty for murder, but otherwise it was extraordinarily liberal and 87 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:50.839 so forth. And constitutionally pacifist. And then you get into 88 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:53.879 a situation where England, of which America is a part, 89 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:57.759 is what the states are apart, is at war, whether 90 00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:00.040 I think it was at the French uh and and 91 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:03.079 the thease of Americans ally with the French and start 92 00:05:03.160 --> 00:05:07.360 invading Pennsylvania and killing people in killing the Scots Irish. 93 00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:10.600 In fact, the Scott's Irish planters and the Scot's Irish 94 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:13.920 planters flee to the capital of Pennsylvania and beg those 95 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:15.600 who are running Pensylvania help, and they say, no, we 96 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:17.279 can't do that. No, we're pacifist, we can't do that, 97 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:19.879 and so and so and so. In the end you 98 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:22.120 end up in a situation where Benjamin Franklin helps to 99 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:24.600 bring about a sort of private army, and in the 100 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:27.120 end those that were in charge of Pennsylvania resign and 101 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:30.639 go into just being religious and not being involved in 102 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:34.000 politics because they won't stand up, they won't fight against 103 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:37.279 even those that are invading and killing people within the 104 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:42.079 Quaker state that was Pennsylvania. It's extraordinary. And then the 105 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:45.160 other case you look at is that the other Puritan colonists. Yeah, 106 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:48.920 you've got a colony and that colony is having to 107 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:51.920 fight outside as it's having to fight Native Americans and 108 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:55.839 so forth and so and they're killing them, and so 109 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:58.639 of course you need law and order, and so what 110 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:00.319 do they say? What does this woman I think her 111 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.439 name was maryder what does she what does she argue? 112 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.040 She argues in favor of this kind of antiinomianism where 113 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:08.800 basically there's no law in order, there's no law, there's 114 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:11.680 no laws, there's nothing that unites us together. There's nothing 115 00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:15.319 that holds us together. There's no positive and negative ethnocentrism. 116 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:20.399 There's just God inspires me with my ideas. And that's right, 117 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:24.000 because God inspires me with them. I have what's called 118 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:27.079 the inner light. God is in me, and I will 119 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:29.800 do what I like. Now I'm not, of course, these 120 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:32.480 were people of their time. It's very brutal. They hanged 121 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:34.920 very dire in the end, in the end. But but 122 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:38.480 but she was so in chaos within a community that 123 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:40.879 needs to hold together against the enemy at the gate 124 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:42.839 that is killing it. Now, whether you think that it's 125 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:45.560 morally right or wrong, they're taking Native American land as 126 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:48.800 a different issue. But assuming that you side with the colonists, 127 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:51.639 they've got to defend themselves. This is chaos. They threw 128 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:54.759 her out, they made her leave. She went back to England. 129 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:56.839 They made it quite clear to her that she was 130 00:06:56.879 --> 00:06:58.920 exiled and she was not to come back to the colony. 131 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:02.360 And she comes back just just so she can be 132 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:05.920 a martyr, just so she can be executed, I would argue. 133 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:08.519 But by the way, there's good. There's good research indicates 134 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:11.279 that martyrdom is a kind of maladaptive form of narcissism. 135 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.399 And I strongly suspect that what you get with a 136 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:15.920 lot of these people, you get a lot of people 137 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:18.879 on the left anyway, is they are relatively high in narcissism. 138 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:21.800 They deal with their negative feelings or whatever by telling 139 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:24.839 themselves that they are superior to everybody else, and in particular, 140 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:27.199 they are more moral than everybody else. They are more 141 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:30.199 as it were, godly sometimes than everybody else, to the 142 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:33.480 extent that that that need for narcissistics apply can literally 143 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:36.480 be fulfilled by by martyrdom. I mean, there's worse than that. 144 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:41.519 There's the the universal uh, the what's it called now, 145 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:45.279 the the Universal Friend. 146 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:48.319 This was a universal friend, Yes, this was. 147 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:53.240 This was in Rhode Island. So they preempted. Everything on 148 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:57.079 the modern wote left. Everything you can think of is preempted, 149 00:07:57.240 --> 00:08:01.959 is precursored by Quakers, even transfer exuality. And what you 150 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:06.120 have with Public Universal Friend was this woman that has 151 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:07.920 a bit of a breakdown, essentially, that has a bit 152 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:10.480 of a mental breakdown, and she comes back from this 153 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:15.279 declaring that she's neither male nor female. She's she's not anything. 154 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:20.040 She is she is Public Universal Friend. And she would 155 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:23.639 get incredibly angry, the same way that trans women get 156 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:26.839 angry if you address them by as men or by 157 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:29.519 the wrong pronoun. She would get incredibly angry she was 158 00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:32.120 addressed as a female or addressed by her original name, 159 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:34.759 it was her dead name, and she would demand that 160 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:36.639 she'd be addressed as what she was, which was public 161 00:08:36.759 --> 00:08:40.399 Universal Friend. Fascinatingly, in the Wikipedia article about her, they 162 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:43.840 don't use the pronoun she. They use the pronoun friend, 163 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:47.720 which which which, which just tells you the extent to 164 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:50.840 which the Quakers were this ideal, like, what is this 165 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:53.200 idea of the inner light? This is this is the 166 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:57.879 fundamental idea in Quakerism that God is God, isn't something 167 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:02.159 outside us that can guide us or whatever God is 168 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:05.000 in us, and so there's a sense in which it's 169 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:09.000 almost pantheism, that there's a sense in which or gnosticism, 170 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:12.919 there's a sense in which we are God, and therefore 171 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:15.120 what we do is what God wants us to do 172 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:18.399 because it is God's will, because we are God. The 173 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:21.519 only way you can define your own sex and say 174 00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:23.639 I am male, I am female because I say I 175 00:09:23.720 --> 00:09:27.879 am is if you believe that there is really no 176 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:32.679 true objective reality, and that we are all little I 177 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:35.879 am the reality, You are your reality. We are all 178 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:39.720 little sparks of divine light in a world of darkness, 179 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:42.799 where we are I am that I am, I define 180 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:47.600 what I am. And that idea, that woke idea is 181 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:52.080 there is germinating already in the public universal friend, and 182 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:54.240 not just in the public universal friends, but in other 183 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:59.120 other people within Quakerism as well, This whole idea, even 184 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:01.679 that the idea that they are sinless, we can talk 185 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:07.759 about that. And is there in Quakerism that you are God? 186 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:12.480 Well, there's one thing you mentioned briefly when speaking about 187 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:16.240 Pennsylvania that I want to bring up, because this is 188 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:20.000 an abiding character of the Quaker, which is their attitude 189 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:23.840 towards crime and punishment from a very early early stage 190 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:28.320 opposing the death penalty, of course, but also our concept 191 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:33.320 of reformatory prisons in itself is deeply tied to Quakerism. 192 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:35.919 It's sort of an interesting aside, if you have anything 193 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:36.480 to add. 194 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:39.279 Uh, yeah, well, it's it's just it's just one of 195 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:43.039 it's just one of many examples of whatever it is. 196 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:46.440 I would suggest, I would I put it. I'd take 197 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:49.039 a sort of a much broader view, what almost like 198 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:52.919 an evolutionary view. What is going on with Quakerism. You 199 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:55.200 have this particular period of time in the wake of 200 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:59.519 the Civil War or during the Civil War, where it's 201 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:02.720 a very time to be alive. It's extremely cold, things 202 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:07.639 are getting much colder. The population is getting too high 203 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:09.799 for the amount of the agricultural land that you can 204 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:11.159 deal with, which is one of the reasons why you 205 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:13.759 have all these people fleeing to the United States and 206 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:18.559 the colonies and so on. You have the Civil War itself, 207 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:21.720 and then the interregnum, the Republic, which turns everything on 208 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:25.240 its head, the abolition of bishops, all kinds of stuff. 209 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:28.120 It's a crazy world. It's an unstable world. It's a 210 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:30.879 frightening world. I don't think it's any coincidence that you 211 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:33.759 get the witch craze at exactly that time as well. 212 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:37.559 And also when people are high in mortality saliens, and 213 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:41.279 when people are uncertain, and when there's political uncertainty, people 214 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:46.200 become much much more religious and much much more religiously fervent, 215 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:48.919 and you get these kinds of religious experiences, and you 216 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:52.919 get people going through phases of very intense religious fervor, 217 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:56.639 and that's what you see with Quakerism. And so you 218 00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:59.159 just have this man that's an educated man, the shoemaker 219 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:03.399 called Jorge Box, who's incredibly charismatic and inspiring and so on, 220 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:06.279 I'm sure, and the law and orders breaking down because 221 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:08.399 normally you had to have a license to preach and 222 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:10.639 things like that, but it can't really be enforced because 223 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:13.720 it's just chaos. So he's able to go around preaching 224 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:19.480 in the countryside, and he takes everything, every tradition, everything 225 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:23.000 that holds society together, every example as it were, of 226 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:29.120 positive ethnocentrism, everything that's uniting, and attacks it and now 227 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:32.440 in favor of essentially equality. That's what he goes on 228 00:12:32.519 --> 00:12:35.799 on about equality, which is of course damaging to the 229 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:38.159 group as a whole because it's the group that's high 230 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:41.120 in positive and negative ethnocentrism, according to concluding models, which 231 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:44.879 tends to dominate other groups. But it emerges at that 232 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:47.799 time of chaos where you have to find a niche. 233 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:50.200 You have to find a niche where you can basically 234 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:53.279 pass on your genes. And so what is your niche? 235 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:55.559 If you're in the middle, you're in the middle, you're 236 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:58.080 middling sort, you're up against it. You've got to find 237 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.399 a way of getting ahead of getting a bit more well. Obviously, 238 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:03.879 as we see now, what you can do is virtue 239 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:07.399 signal or purity signal. You fear a fair fight, so 240 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:10.480 you virtue signal or you purity signal, and thus you 241 00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:14.240 covertly play for status. And that's the essence of Quakerism. 242 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:18.720 It's that you virtue signal about equality and harb avoidance 243 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:21.200 in a society which does value those things. Because we 244 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:25.960 are pack animals, we value equality, individual interests to quality, harboroids, 245 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:29.200 but also group or into things. But you such as 246 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:33.279 the medisa, authority, tradition, sanctity, whatever. But you focus on 247 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:36.240 those things and you covertly play for status, and you 248 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:38.840 cloak yourself in this idea that oh I'm just so kind, 249 00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:43.679 I'm so wonderful, I'm a pacifist, I'm nonviolent. And this 250 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.639 of course allows you manipulatively to get past the immune 251 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:51.840 system of everybody else and thus attain slightly more status, 252 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:55.320 slightly more resources. And this is what they do. And 253 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.039 I think that if you look at the psychology of 254 00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:00.320 the kind of people that are attracted at times of 255 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:04.200 crisis to these new religious movements, they're very high in Euroticism. 256 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:07.679 They tend to be very mentally unstable, and they need 257 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:12.559 something that makes absolute sense, and they feel bad about themselves, 258 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:14.879 so they need a way of feeling superior to others. 259 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:17.120 And one way they can feel superior to others, and 260 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:20.399 Quakerism offers this is by feeling that they are morally 261 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:24.480 superior to others, by telling themselves they are morally perfect. 262 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:28.440 God indeed is in them. They are God in a sense. 263 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:33.320 How much more perfect can you feel? And that's what 264 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:36.200 Quacarism allows them to do. So it would have attracted 265 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:38.080 in the first instance. I think these people that were 266 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:41.679 quite mentally unstable and thus quite therefore kind of developed 267 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:45.000 to kind of narcissism, essentially, a kind of grandiose narcissism, 268 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:50.600 uh and and but it worked as an evolutionary niche 269 00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:53.440 because yes, some of them would be persecuted and whatever, 270 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:55.559 and there would be problems and George Fox spent time 271 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:59.399 in prison and so on. But broadly it allowed an 272 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:02.000 evolutionary space to be created where they could kind of 273 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:05.759 play for status via their virtue signaling and people and 274 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:10.399 people let by the more anti social aspects of that signaling, 275 00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:14.440 like how like how now we overlook the far left 276 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:17.639 gluing themselves to roads and and things like this. We 277 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:20.480 kind of let them get away with it because they 278 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.840 appeal to this idea. Well, look, we're peaceful, We're such peaceful, 279 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:28.600 kind weak people, but they're not really. And that's I 280 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:31.519 think the space that they they carved out. And then 281 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:35.080 they marry in and until I think was it the 282 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:37.480 eighteen sixties, they had to marry in or they would 283 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:40.559 be thrown out of their community. So they marry other 284 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:43.159 people like them, and so you end up almost with 285 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:47.720 a proto sub ethnic group among the among the English 286 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:52.759 genetically English people of the UK of Britain, America, under 287 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:53.639 a few other places. 288 00:15:55.080 --> 00:16:01.320 Well to that point, both this pattern of effectively social 289 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:04.759 virtue signaling and also radical egalitarianism. When you see that 290 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.720 in the current Quaker order of worship, you can put 291 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:11.960 quotes around order of worship because basically what they do 292 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:14.879 is they have these large rooms, the benches facing in 293 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.519 and the order of worship is silence until someone is 294 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:22.519 led by the light to speak out. And in effect, 295 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:26.240 what that is is a it is a public place 296 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:30.879 for social progressives to signal their values. I mean quite literally, 297 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.200 as someone who's been to these services, you will hear 298 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:38.080 yesterday's NPR special repeated almost blow for blow, and everyone, 299 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:40.919 of course, you know, congratulates themselves about how brave they 300 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:43.080 are to be talking about at the time I went 301 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:46.080 kids in cages. And of course, you know, if you're 302 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:48.000 a cynically minded fellow, you might say, well, was that 303 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.000 the light or was that you know, National Public broadcast. 304 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:54.279 There's something so dishonest about it because in normal churches, 305 00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:57.440 I mean the way he would condemn hierarchy, George Fox, 306 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:00.279 he'd talk about churches as steeple houses. He does that 307 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:04.319 priests were completely unnecessary. They'd refuse to engage in any 308 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:07.559 acts that indicated hierarchy. They wouldn't doff their hats to 309 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:09.960 social superiors. Which is a big thing in those days. 310 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:14.000 They wouldn't use the formal version of you as existed 311 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:17.279 in those days. They'd only use the informal. They wouldn't 312 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:19.559 even use the months of the year because they argued 313 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:23.039 these were pagan I think, you know, it was so 314 00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:27.240 extreme things like this. Of course they wouldn't drink. But 315 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:31.559 it's actually a de facto hierarchy. It's just it's dishonest, 316 00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:33.880 because of course there's a hierarchy. What happens is the 317 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.440 more dominant people in the group inevitably will be the 318 00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:39.359 ones that get up and say things and in these 319 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:43.759 silent meetings, and inevitably, inevitably and and so there's a 320 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:47.599 de facto hierarchy. There are facto people in charge. If 321 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:50.039 you were to do what's called a network analysis and anthropology, 322 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:51.799 you'd soon find out who was in charge of every 323 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:55.279 single one of these Quaker meeting these friends, friends meeting houses. 324 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:58.759 So it's it's just it's dishonest, and it's wrapping yourself 325 00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:04.440 up in the in the cloak of equality and avoiding 326 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:07.319 offense and harm, avoidance on whatever, whereas in reality there's 327 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:09.440 an obvious hierarchy to it. But I mean, yeah, I 328 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:11.559 was first that came aware of. It was actually the 329 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:14.759 first wedding I went to. I I was twelve years 330 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:19.079 old and my friend my dad had a colleague. I 331 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:21.720 don't know if the colleague. The colleague was of Indian extraction, 332 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:24.759 and his wife was Norwegian that spoke very good English, 333 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:26.319 and they're both living in the UK, and they had 334 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:30.559 a Quaker wedding and then and they said, rather than 335 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.839 bring us gifts, please bring us something that everybody can share, 336 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:36.839 which I suppose is nice and fair enough, but there's 337 00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:39.240 something a bit kind of virtue signaling esque about this, 338 00:18:39.319 --> 00:18:42.000 isn't there. And so then we go to the wedding 339 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:43.759 and it was to just sit there and make their 340 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:47.839 vows in silence, and occasionally one man and it was 341 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:53.519 one man, a very clearly socially dominant, quite tall, muscular 342 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:57.319 man in his early sixties, we get up and say something, Oh, 343 00:18:57.359 --> 00:18:59.519 I just think love is so amazing, and it's amazing 344 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:02.279 this gift God has given us or whatever. And then 345 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:05.440 the mother of the bride, who was also I assume 346 00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:07.640 was also a Quaker, because she'd made very little effort 347 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:10.559 with her appearance considering it was a daughter's wedding, and 348 00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:13.039 who was Norwegian. But then just get up and go 349 00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:14.680 hold hold, hold, hold the hold of holder, hold the 350 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:17.599 hold of hold, translating it for the Norwegian guests. And 351 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:20.960 this would go on throughout the hour. And then they 352 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:24.119 were married, and I thought to myself, hang on a minute, 353 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:26.519 this idea that we're all equal and sitting in silence. No, 354 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:29.039 it's a very specific kind of guy. I actually thought 355 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:31.880 to myself, Oh, he must be the vicar, because I 356 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:34.359 didn't know anything about Quaker asm I was twelve years old. 357 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:36.400 He must be the vicar. But for some ready sits 358 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:38.759 at the bath. Yes. 359 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.519 So, friend of mine, Johann Kurz wrote a book Leaving 360 00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:48.000 a Legacy, which is primarily about tracking how families pass 361 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:51.599 on wealth through generations. Right, so obviously he looks at, 362 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:55.599 you know, the English nobility, and then as an American example, 363 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:59.279 he tracks the sort of wasp aristocracy. But he makes 364 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:03.759 a very int resting comparison between the you know, the 365 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:08.480 sort of blue bloods of New England and what elite 366 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:13.000 there was in Quaker country. And what he basically said 367 00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:15.680 is that you do not see the same sort of 368 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:19.680 signals of wealth. You don't see as many of these 369 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:24.880 grand estates you don't see fortunes past. Generationally, that does 370 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:27.319 happen in those areas, but it tends to have occurred 371 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:29.960 much later. Right, So for instance, you have you know, 372 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:32.920 famous families like the Vanderbilts and others, but that was 373 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:37.000 primarily a late nineteenth early twentieth century feature, whereas that 374 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:40.359 had been happening from the beginning of places like Massachusetts. 375 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:46.119 And he particularly talks about the Quaker ideas of sort 376 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:49.319 of patrimony in secession, that they had very firm beliefs 377 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:54.359 about distributing everything equally and well, much like Haiti, it 378 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:56.039 didn't go particularly well. 379 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:56.480 Right. 380 00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:01.920 Wealth tended to dissipate because instead of being concentrated enough 381 00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:06.480 to be useful, it was split out among everyone's descendants. 382 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:09.759 And I think that again, if we're talking about that 383 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:12.880 theme of radical equality, it's interesting to see how that 384 00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:16.440 affects something even down to how do rich people act. 385 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:21.759 Yes, that's that's very interesting. So it implies that enforced 386 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:27.319 equality will ultimately cause problems for you, and it's not 387 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:32.160 it's not inherently a good thing. Now it from their perspective, 388 00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:34.680 it is inherently a good thing because it allows them 389 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:37.599 to virtue signal and it allows them to covertly gain 390 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:40.519 status or to covit or to use that COVID means 391 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:42.920 to gain narcissistic supply, which they might see as a 392 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:45.160 good in itself, and to feel better than other people. 393 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:49.160 But in terms of the practicalities of running a society, 394 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:53.960 it is clearly not a good thing. The Quakers would 395 00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:56.119 have opposed and did a posse. They refuse to fight 396 00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:59.359 their pacifists, so they go on about the terrors of 397 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:01.960 the far right. Now they fund the far left. They've 398 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:05.079 literally fund the extreme left, that group like in the UK, 399 00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:08.480 groups like Hope Not Hate and whatever. These Quaker organizations 400 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:11.200 are funding them. But if the Quakers had there, if 401 00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:14.200