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Everybody, including his family, believed that. 54 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:23.599 Yet on August thirteenth, two thousand and eighteen, he murdered Shannan, 55 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:27.960 his pregnant wife and two young daughters, bearing Sheanan and 56 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:31.000 their unborn son in a shallow grave and dumping their 57 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:35.560 daughter's bodies in separal, separate oil tanks. As terrible as 58 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:38.840 his story is, it is also a warning because to 59 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:42.439 this day, living behind bars, Watts is still acting out 60 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:45.319 the character traits that made him kill in the first place. 61 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:49.680 In this the first and only psychological exploration of the 62 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:55.000 Watts family murders, psychotherapist Lena Derhally has pieced together the crime, 63 00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:57.919 the events leading to it, and most of all her 64 00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:01.800 beliefs about the why, including the fact that Chris Watts, 65 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:04.919 now a self described man of God, is not in 66 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:10.120 the least remorseible about killing his family. Using police discovery 67 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:13.120 and other sources, der Holley recreates the night of the 68 00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:18.199 murders and the investigation that followed. She explores the childhoods, 69 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:23.240 families of origin, meeting, and early relationships of Shannan and 70 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:27.519 Chris Watts. She also examines Watt's double life and duplicity 71 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:31.079 regarding his well publicized affair with a co worker who, 72 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:35.120 although she claimed their affair was casual, was searching online 73 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:38.160 for wedding dresses at the time of the murders. The 74 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:41.800 book includes an in depth look at community psychopaths, the 75 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:46.000 different subtypes of narcissism, how to prevent this type of violence, 76 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:50.439 and interviews with a neuroscientist, a criminal psychologist, and a 77 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:54.120 journalist in order to determine what in Watt's twisted makeup 78 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:57.720 allowed him to hide who he really is for so long. 79 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:04.000 Using her knowledge of attachment theory, immigo relationship theory, and 80 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:07.480 psycho pathology, Dear Holly draws a profile of the real 81 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:11.120 Chris Watts, and just as important, she warns readers that 82 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:15.920 he is still a danger today. The book we're featuring 83 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:18.920 this evening is My Daddy Is a Hero. How Chris 84 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:22.600 Watts went from family Man to Family Killer with my 85 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:27.639 special guest, psychotherapist and author Lena Dearhlly. Welcome to the program, 86 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:30.399 and thank you so much for this interview, Lina dear Holly. 87 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:32.240 Thank you so much. 88 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:32.480 Dan. 89 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:34.040 I'm happy to be with you today. 90 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:38.199 Thank you so much. I know myself and so many 91 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:41.800 other people are are We're looking forward to this interview 92 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:46.839 with you today. This is an incredible book. Let's start 93 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:51.240 right away with what was the objective for writing this book? 94 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:56.079 In the oh gosh, yeah, there were so many objectives actually, 95 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:59.399 especially now as I look back. You know, when you 96 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:03.519 write something like this, you completely submerge yourself in it, 97 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:05.800 and I don't think you can really speak clearly until 98 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:09.240 you have the hindsight. And I actually released the book 99 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:12.199 exactly a year ago now, so I've had a year 100 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:16.079 to kind of look back and really reflect on the 101 00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:22.160 several objectives. I think one was I hear sometimes that 102 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:25.199 people say motive doesn't matter and things like this, and 103 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:29.040 I work with a lot of people and especially women 104 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:34.240 that have suffered this type of narcissistic abuse, and not 105 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:36.519 a lot of people know how to label it or 106 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:40.160 know what to look for, and so one, you know, 107 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:42.480 I wanted this book to be an education I didn't 108 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:46.959 want to write some sensationalized crime story because you know, 109 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:50.040 the people I'm talking about, they're real people, and so 110 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:54.879 many people in this case have been so deeply affected, 111 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:58.040 including law enforcement. One of the head detectives on the 112 00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:01.519 case actually retired because of his PTSD from the case, 113 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:03.720 and so, you know, we really want to think that 114 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:07.560 these are real people, and so many people's lives were 115 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:11.920 destroyed because of Chris Watts's actions, and I think it's 116 00:07:11.959 --> 00:07:15.519 really important that people sort of know, you know, what 117 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:20.240 type of patterns there are to look for, and arguably, 118 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:22.040 you know, we'll probably talk about this at some point. 119 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:24.879 I don't really think Chris Wats displayed any warning signs, 120 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:28.040 which was sort of the second objective of the book, 121 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:32.199 because as someone you know who, I'm a psychotherapist, I 122 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:34.800 have worked with a lot of couples, I see a 123 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.480 lot of couple dynamics. I worked with personality disorders before, 124 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:44.279 and Chris Watts just really didn't fit this typical picture 125 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:46.600 of you know what we see when we see a 126 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:51.160 family annihilator of some of his features do, but mostly 127 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:55.600 he was this really passive, cive, deferential, low key guy 128 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:58.120 who was so easy going and go with the flow, 129 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:01.600 and he showed no signs of being controlling or anything 130 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:04.639 like that, and I think that was one of the 131 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:07.560 reasons people were so drawn to this case. Everybody was 132 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:10.879 just scratching their heads and puzzled about, well, how does 133 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:14.839 somebody who has the opposite signs of somebody who normally 134 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:18.199 would kill his wife or family, how did this happen? 135 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:21.639 And so those were sort of the main objectives of 136 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:26.079 helping people understand. And I learned so much writing this 137 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:29.920 book as well, so it helps me understand more, and 138 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:34.799 you know, to also give people an education and sort 139 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:38.399 of look at again the neuroscience. I really liked talking 140 00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:41.679 to the neuroscientist I interviewed for this book. I interviewed 141 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:45.039 a great criminal psychologist for this book. So I really 142 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:47.759 wanted to help people understand and I really wanted people 143 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:52.240 to learn. And then I think the third objective was 144 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:55.399 I wanted to go on the record as a mental 145 00:08:55.440 --> 00:09:01.000 health professional to defend shenand Watts. People watched the Netflix 146 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:05.559 documentary about this case, which is called American Murder. They 147 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:08.679 go into this aspect of the case that there was 148 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:11.799 a lot of victims blaming going on about Shenan sort 149 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:15.200 of you know, being the person. You know, there's some 150 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:19.039 narrative that she somehow pushed Chris to do this, and 151 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:23.360 I could not disagree with that more. And so I 152 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:27.840 wanted to go on the record as a professional defending 153 00:09:27.879 --> 00:09:30.120 her because she can't defend herself, and so it was 154 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:34.399 really important for me to do that for her. And 155 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:37.200 so those were my main objectives. 156 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:41.120 Now, what is it that you observe that drew you 157 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:46.120 into this case immediately and, as you say, obsessed you afterwards. 158 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:50.200 Yeah, you know, the first time I saw anything about 159 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:53.039 this case was this Chris Watts interview on his porch. 160 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:58.320 So after his wife and children are reported missing, he 161 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:01.679 agrees to do an interview television interview at the news 162 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:05.840 on his front porch, and the way he's talking about 163 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:11.159 his family and children is just so removed and so detached. 164 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:13.879 His eyes look really soulless. But at the same time, 165 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:17.039 you see this, you know, handsome, canned, muscular guy in 166 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:21.679 front of this large suburban home, and it just there's 167 00:10:21.720 --> 00:10:24.759 just this real incongruency about it, this you know, picture 168 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:29.240 of perfect idyllic life and then this man who on 169 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:33.559 the surface seems great, but you can tell that there's something, 170 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:37.600 you know, not right. And then as the story unfolded, 171 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:40.440 you know, nearly days after he did that interview, he 172 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:46.000 failed a polygraph test and ended up confessing his first confession. 173 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:49.399 He blamed his wife and said, you know, she killed 174 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:51.200 the kids, and then he killed her in a fit 175 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:54.919 of rage. But as forensic evidence came out and eventually 176 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:57.679 he signed off on a confession that he had killed 177 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:00.440 all three of them. But just the of you know, 178 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:03.919 burying his pregnant wife in the shallow grave face down, 179 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:07.559 which he in certain confessions has confessed that he did 180 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:10.399 it on purpose, the way he just kind of threw 181 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:15.080 her callously into that grave, and then putting his children 182 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:19.120 in oil tanks. I mean, this aspect just blows the 183 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:22.799 mind of everyone. How could a father put his baby 184 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.559 girl three and four years old in oil tanks? I mean, 185 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:30.240 just that horrific aspect. And again of this person who 186 00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:34.519 had no warning signs, no criminal record, no history of abuse, 187 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:38.720 no history of being controlling anything of that. For everybody 188 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:41.000 loved him is that, you know, I researched the book. 189 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:43.759 You could not find one person who had anything bad 190 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:47.000 to say about this man, and so I was, you know, 191 00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:50.279 obsessed with the same reason everybody else was. How does 192 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:55.440 this happen? How does somebody so seemingly normal and like 193 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:59.120 a nice guy do something that is the epitome of evil. 194 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:07.799 Certainly it's worth mentioning, obviously about August thirteenth, twenty eighteen, 195 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:10.960 and you write that Nicky Atkinson is a hero in 196 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:17.840 this story and does incredible pressures put on Chris Watts. 197 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:21.279 But as if we discuss this case further, I think 198 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:25.879 the audience will see and realize that without her, without 199 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:30.399 her actions, initially, there might have been more for Chris 200 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:32.480 watch Chris Watts to be able to do, to be 201 00:12:32.519 --> 00:12:35.399 able to cover his tracks. We'll talk about more about 202 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:40.720 that and a motivation for that, but let's talk about again. 203 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:46.720 You talk about the senselessness of this, and especially it's 204 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:51.360 profound in terms of his everybody saying what a great 205 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:54.440 guy was, and all of his actions and behavior, and 206 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:58.879 his wife's respect and love for him, and her posts 207 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:02.120 about their love and their and everybody's idea that this 208 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:08.200 was an idyllic relationship in the first place. Let's talk 209 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:13.679 about the relationship where he works at this petroleum company 210 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:20.159 and as an impetus for and a reason for these 211 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:21.679 murders to occur in the first place. 212 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:26.840 Yeah, So, you know, Shenan and Chris were together for 213 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.679 about eight years before he murdered the family, and they 214 00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:34.000 were married for six and you know, up until she 215 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:38.279 had traveled to North Carolina. So she took her daughters, 216 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:41.759 Bella and CC to North Carolina for the summer. They 217 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:46.200 spent about five weeks there visiting Chris's family and Shenan's family, 218 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:48.399 and Chris joined them for the last week of the 219 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:52.120 trip that he was by himself in North in Colorado 220 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:54.799 where they lived for five weeks, and he was working. 221 00:13:55.759 --> 00:13:58.919 And you know, right before Sanan and the girls left 222 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:02.639 for North Carolina, Chris had struck up a flirtation with 223 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:07.480 a coworker named Nicole Kessinger, so he met her. You know, 224 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:09.559 they had He was out in the field a lot, 225 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:11.840 but there were times once or twice a week where 226 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:13.639 they would have to go into the office and so 227 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:15.679 he would see her there kind of like a water 228 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:18.879 cooler thing. And I think they found each other attractive. 229 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:24.039 But what ended up happening was he was already texting 230 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:27.480 and flirting with Nicole Kessinger. Even he was on a 231 00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:30.879 business trip with Chanan for the supplements she promoted called 232 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:35.639 Thrive in San Diego right before she took the girls 233 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:39.799 to North Carolina, And even on that trip where he 234 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.679 was with Shanan on a weekend just the two of them, 235 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:47.240 he was already flirting with Nicole Kessinger. But when the 236 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:49.480 family left for five weeks, all of a sudden, he 237 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:52.200 had this opportunity to have this bachelor life, and he 238 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:54.840 was you know, he went full force into this affair 239 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.840 with Nicole Kessinger and basically spent you know, five days 240 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:02.360 a week with her for pretty much the entirety of 241 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:05.919 the time his family was gone. So if you look 242 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:08.240 at one of the you know, I always like to 243 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:10.759 say about this case, I call it the perfect storm 244 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:15.559 of multiple factors that came together. So, you know, this 245 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:21.440 affair seemed to be one of the driving forces behind 246 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:24.039 what he did. But you know, as we'll go into later, 247 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:27.759 what I like to tell people is that lots of 248 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:30.480 people have affairs. I deal with infidelity in my practice 249 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.039 all the time. Most people who have affairs do not 250 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:36.240 kill their family, So we know that the affair was 251 00:15:36.279 --> 00:15:39.639 not the reason why he killed his family. There had 252 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:43.559 to be something much deeper, much more wrong than just 253 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:47.279 an affair, but that was one of the catalysts that 254 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:50.240 put this idea in motion for him to premeditate the 255 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:51.279 killings of his family. 256 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:56.960 Now, unlike many times where there seems to be a 257 00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:02.279 pressure from this new affair or a denigration of say 258 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:07.440 the wife in sort of a competition between them, it 259 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:11.200 almost seems at least that there was almost the opposite 260 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:14.919 going on in terms of her speaking to Chris about 261 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:18.159 his family and his desire to leave that family. 262 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:24.799 Yeah. Yeah, about Nicole's how she approached it. I don't 263 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:29.919 think we'll ever really know the full story about what 264 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:34.759 Chris told Nicole Kssinger about his family. You know, he says, 265 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:36.720 you know that maybe he told her that he was 266 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:39.720 leaving them, but then he said that he knew that 267 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:42.039 she was married when he met her. You know, he 268 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:45.240 was wearing his wedding ring. And she says, you know 269 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.799 that on the record that she told him, like, go 270 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:50.759 fix things with your wife. I don't want to be 271 00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:54.039 I don't want to be the second fiddle. Like, you 272 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:57.120 need to figure that out first. But you know, there's 273 00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:00.840 also times where Nicole Kassinger would say things to him 274 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.759 like she wanted to give him his first son, and 275 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:05.880 Shannann was pregnant with the third child, and she was 276 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:09.799 actually pregnant with a boy. And so, you know, Chris 277 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:12.920 said in one of his confessions, and I looked at 278 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:16.039 multiple confessions that he's given, and he has changed the story. 279 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:20.440 He has said that when Nicole said that she wanted 280 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:22.400 to give him his first son, that was when the 281 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:25.680 idea of plotting these murders came into his head. So 282 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:31.480 you know, there, I'm not sure exactly what was said 283 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:34.519 behind the scenes, because there seems to be some conflicting, 284 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:38.160 contradictory things that both of them say about you know, 285 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:40.880 how much she knew about his marriage and whatnot. 286 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:47.440 For this seemingly perfect marriage and relationship. What was it? 287 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:51.839 What were the reasons he gave later for what was 288 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:55.279 it about Nikki that was different than his wife? What 289 00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:59.319 was different about this potential relationship that was different than 290 00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:00.920 this ideal one that he had? 291 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:04.480 Well, you know, when he I think it's important to 292 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:08.000 understand the dynamic of when he and Shnan first got 293 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:11.960 together because he in order to understand what was different 294 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.559 for him about Nicki. So when he met Shanan, she 295 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:18.200 wanted nothing to do with him. They were introduced over 296 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:21.519 Facebook by a mutual friend, and he kind of pursued 297 00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:23.480 her on Facebook, and she was in a really dark 298 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:26.720 place in her life. She was ill, she was coming 299 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.799 off of a divorce, and so she kind of turned 300 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:32.039 him down and said, you know, I'm not really ready 301 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:34.640 to meet anyone, but he kind of kept pushing, and 302 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:36.480 then she agreed to meet him, and they went on 303 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:39.799 a first date, and she still was kind of aloof 304 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:42.000 with him and not really thinking he was her type. 305 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:46.240 But he pursued, He pursued, he pursued, He really went 306 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.680 after her. And the dynamic of their relationship from day 307 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.440 one was that she was kind of more of the 308 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:55.480 assertive one, you know, kind of wearing the pants and 309 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:59.599 the relationship she was very much self admittedly OCD. She 310 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:03.839 really things in their order. She really liked control. Everything 311 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:06.319 was meticulous in her house. You know, she was very 312 00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:10.400 much a perfectionist and she did everything really well. And 313 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:13.519 Chris again had always had with everybody in his life. 314 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:18.200 It seeing this really quiet, laid back again, very deferential, 315 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:21.680 very submissive, and he made it seem like he was 316 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:24.440 okay with that dynamic that he kind of liked being 317 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:28.440 told what to do. That his role was kind of 318 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:32.160 again this really good guy who doted onto his girlfriend 319 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:35.279 who then became his wife. And so that was the 320 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:38.000 dynamic that they always had, but that was also the 321 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:41.359 dynamic that Chris sold to her. So if we look 322 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.599 at somebody she's pushing him away, and he's convincing her 323 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:48.000 to be with him. He's going above and beyond. In 324 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:50.279 the first few months of dating, he's driving her to 325 00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:53.359 Colonosk at the appointments, he is rearranging her pills in 326 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:56.519 their pill box. You know, things that are very, very 327 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:59.039 over the top when we're first meeting someone. So he's 328 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:04.200 really trying to sell her something here. And eventually she's like, well, 329 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:06.960 this is the opposite of my first marriage, and this 330 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.279 is how you know, I really like being treated like this. 331 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:13.000 I feel adored, I feel loved, and so of course 332 00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:14.960 she said, you know what, this is probably what I 333 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.359 need and a husband and a father. So the dynamic 334 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:20.519 was there from the beginning. But as many of us 335 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:23.279 who are married or have kids know that you get 336 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:26.240 married you have young kids, your life changes and a 337 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:29.359 lot of the time, little children have lots of needs, 338 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:32.480 and people are busy, you know, they're working, they're trying 339 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:34.759 to put food on the table, they're driving their kids 340 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:38.279 to school, and so their life became very they fell 341 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:42.559 into very much of a monotonous, typical, you know, lifestyle 342 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:46.200 of parents with young children. And again, when he met 343 00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:51.839 Nicki Nicole Kessinger, who he calls Nicki, she was you know, 344 00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:57.720 she's thirty, she's single. She you know, Chris said that 345 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:01.000 he felt that she respects did him in a way 346 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:04.240 that nobody else had ever respected him before. I think 347 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:07.319 he felt that she really was interested in what he 348 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:10.640 had to say, and I think he kind of felt 349 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:13.920 over the years, at least this is what he says, 350 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:16.599 is that, you know, I think he felt like he 351 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:19.680 didn't have as much control with Shanan or maybe didn't 352 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:23.359 feel respected by her, although he never articulated that to her, 353 00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:27.359 and so there was never a chance to repair this 354 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:30.880 dynamic if he was unhappy with that. But of course, 355 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.160 in the honeymoon phase of a relationship, when you're first 356 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:36.880 meeting somebody and he's first meeting Nicki Kessinger, you put 357 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:40.279 your best foot forward, and we're not always showing, you know, 358 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:43.400 the worst sides of ourselves as well. So he's sort 359 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.440 of looking at the projections fantasy of what he thinks, 360 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:48.680 Nicki is he doesn't really know her. You know, he's 361 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:50.960 been with Shanan for eight years, Nicki, he's known for 362 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:54.720 what a few weeks, and so he's romanticizing and projecting 363 00:21:54.759 --> 00:21:57.359 on her as well what I think he wants her 364 00:21:57.400 --> 00:21:59.799 to be. But ultimately, I think the big comparison for 365 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:04.200 him him was, oh, there's this person and I feel 366 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:06.839 respected and heard by them, and I haven't felt like 367 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:09.279 that with anyone in my life. And I believe you know, 368 00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:11.599 he did say that that she was the person he 369 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:13.079 felt respected him the most. 370 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:22.880 We haven't talked about this Leavey company and also Shenan's success, 371 00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:25.359 and also that her friends were all tied up, some 372 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:27.480 of her best friends were tied up, not tied up. 373 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:30.240 But we're also involved in this company and this Thrive 374 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:36.240 and also what Thrive meant to Chris Chris Watts, because 375 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:40.400 he wasn't always a healthy, fit person growing up, and 376 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:46.240 what did Thrive represent in terms of a supplement and 377 00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:48.559 a lifestyle for Chris. 378 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:51.640 Yeah, Bill Lavelle is a company. It's a multi level 379 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.279 marketing company that has a product called Thrive, which is 380 00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:59.880 you know, shake supplements. It's supposed to give you er. 381 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:04.920 There'sposed to feel natural, you know, healthy lifestyle, weight loss. 382 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:08.839 And Shanan actually she's always been you know, she had 383 00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:13.480 always been quite an entrepreneur, go get her, and like 384 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:16.200 a lot of mothers, she wanted to be home with 385 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:18.640 her children and also make money. So something like this 386 00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:21.559 appealed to her because she could work from home. And 387 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:24.440 so she actually, because she had her own health issues, 388 00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:27.960 she started, i believe, as a customer of this Thrive 389 00:23:28.759 --> 00:23:31.160 and she really liked it, and she started to promote it, 390 00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:34.960 and she she became, you know, quite successful with these 391 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:37.319 type of things. You know, you make money when you 392 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:39.559 get consultants to work under you and then you sell 393 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:41.640 the products and sort of the more people you have 394 00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:45.599 working under you, the more money you make. So she 395 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.680 was able to use that of her only career, so 396 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:51.000 she was able to quit the other jobs she had had. 397 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:52.680 She had worked you know, at a call center in 398 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:56.240 a children's hospital before, and had done some other dabbled 399 00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:59.799 and some other types of things. And while she was 400 00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:03.160 doing that, she also goot Chris to you know, use 401 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:06.880 the supplements, and part of selling this is using social media, 402 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:10.079 so she and Chris, you know, would be on social 403 00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:14.400 media promoting the products. And Chris was quite overweight, you know, 404 00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:17.079 they joked, his family joked that he was like a 405 00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:20.160 garbage disposal. He would eat everything, you know, love McDonald's 406 00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:25.599 kind of thing. And he started eating healthy and working 407 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:28.279 out and taking Thrive, and he dropped a lot of weight, 408 00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:32.519 and he started working out and running and weightlifting, and 409 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:36.839 he became you know, more muscular as he was tanned 410 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:40.400 and he was fit, and he was just I think overall, 411 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.640 way more attractive than he had been in the past. 412 00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:46.519 And so part of this, you know, was in it 413 00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:48.799 seems like a lot of it was when he started 414 00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:54.440 Thrive and in conjunction, but Thrive adopted this healthy lifestyle 415 00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:58.640 and in turn, you know, maybe maybe Nicki Kessinger would 416 00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:01.000 not have noticed him before when he was you know, 417 00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:04.680 sort of overtweight self, so that it's another interesting thing 418 00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:09.039 to look at. Well, all of a sudden he's attractive, 419 00:25:09.400 --> 00:25:12.279 you know, by a lot of people would say that, 420 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:15.799 I think, and not now, of course, after what he's done, 421 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:20.119 but before that, you know he may have been attracting 422 00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:23.759 attention from women before, and I think Nikki was the 423 00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:27.359 one who pursued him and made him feel sexually desirable, 424 00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:29.440 and I'm not sure he's ever had that before in 425 00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:32.039 his life. So there was felt to that attraction of 426 00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:35.319 this woman who finds him very sexually attractive, and I 427 00:25:35.319 --> 00:25:39.720 think he was very very much enthralled with somebody who 428 00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:43.799 felt like that about him. 429 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:48.160 Now you talk about the motivation for this, and there's 430 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:55.759 incredible discussion about the issue of psycho pathology, psychopathy, and 431 00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:00.279 also on narcissism, and then you discuss sub sets of 432 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:06.240 narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder. When people look at someone 433 00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:10.519 like Chris, it's easy to say he's a psychopath and 434 00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:15.480 very simplistic. Let's talk about the distinction between those psycho 435 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:19.640 pathology and this malignant narcissism. 436 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:27.000 Yeah, so psychopathology is sort of the study of mental illness, 437 00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:30.799 mental disease, and when we're looking at narcissism anyway, those 438 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:34.880 are considered technically by people in the mental health field 439 00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:40.200 are diagnostic manual is personality disorders are you know, narcissism, 440 00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:44.319 but they're not mood disorders. So mood disorders are depression 441 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:47.720 and post traumatic stress disorder and anxiety, and there's certain 442 00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:51.839 medications that people can take that can sometimes help those symptoms. 443 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:55.319 As a personality disorder, you can't take a medication for it. 444 00:26:55.319 --> 00:27:00.759 It's sort of fixed in your personality. And so the 445 00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:07.160 the malignant narcissism is it's very parallel to psychopathy, and 446 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.279 so there's lots of you know, debate in the field 447 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:18.680 about psychopathy versus sociopathy versus malignant narcissism, where there's also 448 00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:21.640 something called the dark triad, which is traits you know, 449 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:25.680 like masthew vellianism, but they all sort of share the 450 00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:28.839 same thing. And I think that's one of the things 451 00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:30.960 that's important to know is sort of when we're looking 452 00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:38.359 at malignant narcissism psychopathy, we're looking at narcissistic personality disorder 453 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.279 or the subtypes of narcissism, which I you know, discussed 454 00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:45.000 in the book. They're defining features are lack of empathy 455 00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.480 and remorse, and so you know, I think that's thing 456 00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.799 that you always want to look for. But malignant narcissism, 457 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:56.680 I think is when it's it's really dangerous narcissism, Like 458 00:27:56.759 --> 00:27:59.480 this is the real the worst type of the narcissist, 459 00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:04.200 very psychopathic. Again, they think of people like objects and 460 00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:07.160 they will just if they will discard you, they will 461 00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:12.160 do whatever it takes to just do whatever they want. 462 00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:15.559 Like there's just no regard for other human beings. There's 463 00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:19.559 a lot of impulsivity, there's a lot of recklessness or 464 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:23.359 you know, they break the law, which again Chris didn't 465 00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:25.680 do any of this, but there's always a first time, 466 00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:29.799 right for every criminal, and so there was always I 467 00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:32.440 think there was always that he was always capable of it. 468 00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:38.359 But again these perfect storm factors came out later in life, 469 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:40.559 which you know, he's I think he's about thirty five 470 00:28:40.599 --> 00:28:41.880 now and this happened two years ago. 471 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:51.599 Now let's talk about the influence basically of his family, Ronnie, 472 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:55.440 his father, and Cynthia's mother, and his sister Jamie, and 473 00:28:55.519 --> 00:28:58.400 also the relationship they had with Shannan. 474 00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:04.039 Yeah, that's the complicated stuff right there. So Ronnie and 475 00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:06.839 Chris were I would say Chris would think his his 476 00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:10.119 father was his hero. You know, we're talking about my book. 477 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:12.960 My daddy is a hero. There's a couple father you know, 478 00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:17.920 father child's relationships or the father is the hero. You know, 479 00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:20.839 which is kind of a theme in the book. And 480 00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:24.119 Ronnie was Chris's hero. They had a lot in common. 481 00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:27.400 They would go to racetracks together. Chris was a really 482 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:31.480 skilled mechanic. He was really into you know, race cars 483 00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:33.279 and things like that, so they would they would do 484 00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:36.920 that together. They were quite bonded. Ronnie would go to 485 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:39.000 Chris's Little league games and you know what was his 486 00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:43.640 big supporter was at every game, Cindy and Chris's sister, 487 00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:47.359 Jamie's about seven years older than he is, and you know, 488 00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:50.279 they had a more distant relationship with Chris. It wasn't 489 00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:55.240 a contentious relationship and childhood by any means, but they 490 00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:57.200 which you know, I get into the book as well 491 00:29:57.279 --> 00:29:59.759 as that they had said that, well, they never knew 492 00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:01.720 what he was feeling as a child. You know, he 493 00:30:01.799 --> 00:30:04.720 was really closed off and they were always asking him, 494 00:30:04.759 --> 00:30:07.079 how are you feeling. Nobody really kind of knew what 495 00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:10.519 he was thinking or feeling a lot and so I think, 496 00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:14.240 you know, Jamie was the older sister and doted on him, 497 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:18.039 and you know, his mother. I think because he was 498 00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:20.920 so passive as a child, I think again he sort 499 00:30:20.920 --> 00:30:23.759 of always lets you know, certain people in his life 500 00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:26.920 just kind of dictate things for him. Whether or not 501 00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:29.880 he liked that, I don't know, but I think that 502 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:32.960 was a dynamic that started probably with his mother and 503 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:36.720 sister that he was used to being in relationships with 504 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:39.200 people who kind of just told him what to do 505 00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:41.559 and he kind of just went along with it, or 506 00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:44.640 he was just more of a passive bystander in the relationship, 507 00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:48.160 and you know, nobody kind of really knew what was 508 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:52.519 really going on with him. So, as you know, sNaN 509 00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:55.759 was probably his first real girlfriend. I think you've had 510 00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:58.960 maybe like very more casual girlfriends before that, but this 511 00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:02.279 is the really serious one. And you know, he moved 512 00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:07.480 in with her, and right away Shannan clashed, especially with 513 00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:10.119 Cindy and Jamie, but she clashed with all three of them. 514 00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:14.319 And you know, as is in the discovery documents of 515 00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:16.519 the case and in my book and you can you know, 516 00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:20.319 find it everywhere on YouTube, that they met for the 517 00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:23.720 first time when Chanan had this really nice, big house 518 00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:26.279 and she had a cookout and they all came, and 519 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:28.839 I think Jamie and Cindy were very skeptical of her 520 00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:31.079 to begin with, How does this young woman have such 521 00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:34.200 nice things in this big house? And why do you 522 00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:37.359 need all that. You know, where Chris came from, I 523 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:41.519 guess more of a humble background. And Shanan's mother, Sandy, 524 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:46.279 also felt there was a cold vibe from them. And again, 525 00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:47.960 you know, well, I don't think we'll ever really know 526 00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:51.319 the truth behind some of these stories that have happened. 527 00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:54.519 Like there was the famous story about Shanan and Chris's 528 00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:58.359 engagement party where Sanan had given Jamie the invitations to 529 00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:03.599 be mailed and nobody showed up at the party except 530 00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:07.319 you know, immediate family, and Shenan believed that Jamie never 531 00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:11.000 sent those invitations. I believe Jamie says that she did. 532 00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:14.759 So again, you have all these different stories, but the 533 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:18.400 tensions were really high and everything came to a head, 534 00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:20.559 you know, when Shenan was in North Carolina the last 535 00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:24.319 summer of her life, when the famous incident nutgait happened, 536 00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:30.519 when her children had severe nut allergies, especially the youngest one, Ceci, 537 00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:36.279 and Chris's mother Cindy had allegedly put you know, something 538 00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:38.559 to do with nuts. There's been different stories. Again, did 539 00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:40.599 the ice cream have nuts or was there a bowl 540 00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:43.039 of nuts on the table. I've heard different versions of it, 541 00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:48.799 but Ultimately, Shanan felt that not only was she front 542 00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:53.759 of the girl, but she was also disregarding Shenan's you know, 543 00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:58.319 wanting to protect her children. And this is really sad. 544 00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:01.079 I think when I think back some of the texts 545 00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:04.799 Shanan had with Chris about that incident, where she's talking 546 00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:09.559 about protecting her children at whatever cost and protecting them 547 00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:13.079 from evil family, you know, and she's talking about his mother, 548 00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:15.759 and she has no idea this whole time that her 549 00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:18.400 husband is the one she really needs to protect herself from. 550 00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:20.559 I mean, she didn't need to protect herself from the 551 00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:26.240 whole family because it was a very toxic relationship. But 552 00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:30.359 it's just really, you know, I still can't get over it. 553 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:34.039 Like when I think about how Shenan had zero idea 554 00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:36.920 her husband was plotting her murderer, capable of this, and 555 00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:40.200 that also that he would murder her children. She never 556 00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:43.160 once thought that she would have to protect herself and 557 00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:47.920 her children from her husband. So it's that still kind 558 00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:49.759 of shakes me to my core to this day. 559 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:55.799 Absolutely, let's just take a second for the break for 560 00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:57.119 these messages. 561 00:33:57.480 --> 00:34:01.000 Lucky Land Casino asking people what's the weird you've gotten? 562 00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:04.400 Lucky Lucky in line at the Delhi I guess ah 563 00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:06.559 in my dentist's office more than once. 564 00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:08.199 Actually do I have to say? 565 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:08.639 Yes? 566 00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:11.599 You do in the car before my kid's PTA meeting? 567 00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:12.199 Really? 568 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:12.639 Yes? 569 00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:15.239 Excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 570 00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:16.480 I never win? 571 00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:18.400 And tell well, there you have it. You can get 572 00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:21.880 lucky anywhere playing at lucky Landsloughts dot com play for free. 573 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:22.519 Right now? 574 00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:25.000 Are you feeling lucky? We're just necessary hood? Where weren 575 00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:26.440 do my long eighteen plus terms conditions of plus? 576 00:34:26.599 --> 00:34:30.280 What's everybody else? Now? 577 00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:33.840 You talked about the idea that he could kill his 578 00:34:34.039 --> 00:34:37.320 own children. What you have in this book too, is 579 00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:42.519 some horrifying details and I'm not sure everybody's aware of 580 00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:49.079 in terms of the sheer horror of what he had done. Originally, 581 00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:53.559 you talk about that he confessed that, and this is 582 00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:56.360 where it comes from, and this account is from Chris Watts. 583 00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:01.679 Let's talk about what happened and when he talks about 584 00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:07.519 killing his children and then afterwards, believing they're dead, he 585 00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:12.679 goes to deal with and have this conversation and kill Shanan. 586 00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:17.800 What happens this while he's wrapping her up in a 587 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:19.119 bed sheet in the bedroom. 588 00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:23.920 Yeah, so when actually the investigators from the case, both 589 00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:27.400 from Colorado Bureau of Investigation and the Frederick Police Department 590 00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:31.480 in Colorado, had flown out to his prison and Wisconsin 591 00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:35.519 about you know, several months after he was sentenced to 592 00:35:35.719 --> 00:35:39.519 life in prison, and this was one of the confessions 593 00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:42.199 that was extracted from him, and this is the first 594 00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:46.760 time he had told people, you know, what really happened 595 00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:49.880 and according to him, And you know, some people also 596 00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:52.679 believe he's a very unreliable narrator, which I try to 597 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:55.719 put that in my book that when I'm talking about 598 00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:58.920 what's happening, this is what he's saying. But we also 599 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.280 have to keep in mind that he's unreliable narrator and 600 00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:05.840 he's lied and changed his story multiple times. But he, 601 00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:10.960 you know, said that he he strangled sNaN and I 602 00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:14.920 think it's debatable about there's some theories that he had 603 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:18.320 drugged her because he had admitted to previously giving her 604 00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:22.119 oxy codon to try to get her to miscarry the 605 00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:24.559 baby when they were in when he came out to 606 00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:29.599 North Carolina, and you know, people were people were a 607 00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:32.519 little confused about, Oh, it didn't seem like she fought back. 608 00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:35.880 I've talked to the survivors of domestic violence who have 609 00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:38.079 been choked, and some of them will say, you're in shock, 610 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:40.559 you can't fight back. So it's again, I don't think 611 00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:44.360 we really know if she she didn't fight back because 612 00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:47.199 she couldn't, if she was drugged, if what happened. But 613 00:36:48.679 --> 00:36:51.440 I think he waited for her and after they had had, 614 00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:54.519 you know, a contentious discussion about their marriage. I think 615 00:36:54.519 --> 00:36:56.280 he had waited for her to drift off to sleep 616 00:36:56.320 --> 00:36:58.079 and then he kind of climbed on top of her 617 00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:02.519 and strangled her. And you know, he when he knew 618 00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:05.320 she was dead, her body in a sheet, and Bella, 619 00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:08.559 who was the four year old, walked into the room 620 00:37:08.599 --> 00:37:11.880 and you know, said daddy was wrong with mommy, and 621 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:14.199 he said something, you know, like mommy doesn't feel good. 622 00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:20.880 And ultimately I guess CC woke up as well. And 623 00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:25.960 in another confession, he actually has said that he smothered 624 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:30.960 them in their beds with their pillows before Shanana got 625 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:33.280 home from a business trip, so she the night she 626 00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:35.599 was murdered, she had been away for the weekend. 627 00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:36.679 And. 628 00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:40.639 In one of his confessions he says he smothered them first, 629 00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:44.119 but I guess he didn't finish what he had started 630 00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:46.920 because he was surprised, you know, that they had woken up. 631 00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:49.880 And he says that he was angry that they were 632 00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:51.840 still alive. And he also said they looked like they 633 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:54.760 had been traumatized. I think maybe one of them may 634 00:37:54.760 --> 00:37:57.480 have had bruises under her eyes or something like that, 635 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:01.559 and so they were confused and disarray. And again, this 636 00:38:01.719 --> 00:38:05.079 is just one of several different stories he's told, so 637 00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:10.239 I'm just repeating them. But he did drag Shenan's body 638 00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:12.320 down the stairs in front of the girls, wrapped in 639 00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:15.480 a sheet because he couldn't carry her, she was too heavy, 640 00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:19.360 and you know, put them, put her in the car 641 00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:21.599 on the bed of the truck in the back, put 642 00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:24.920 the girls with their feet dangling over their dead mother, 643 00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:29.159 and drove forty five minutes oil field where he worked, 644 00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:33.400 where you know, he then proceeded to strangle his mother, 645 00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:38.159 Ceci with her favorite blanket, in front of Bella. And 646 00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:39.840 then I think, I believe you put her in the 647 00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:42.039 oil tank then and then he came back to Bella 648 00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:43.719 and she said, Daddy, are you going to do the 649 00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:46.159 same thing to me that you did to Ceci? And 650 00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:49.880 he says he doesn't remember what he said, and obviously 651 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:52.559 then he goes and does the same thing and then 652 00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:54.800 puts her body in the oil tank. But I mean, 653 00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:59.159 you look at again. I mean the time, the amount 654 00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:03.079 of time, the complete lack of mpem a mother and 655 00:39:03.800 --> 00:39:07.639 I have a daughter who was born three months before 656 00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:10.519 Bella was, So when I'm writing this book, I have 657 00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:14.159 I can picture what a girl Bella's age is. It's 658 00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:18.599 my own daughter, and there's just nothing in you know, 659 00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:21.800 I get my voice first cracking because it's just so upsetting. 660 00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:24.920 I'm still I'm so upset to this day. There's nothing 661 00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:27.480 on this earth that would make a parent who loves 662 00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:31.480 their child, who's begging for their life, and to subject 663 00:39:31.559 --> 00:39:35.440 them to what he subjected, that type of trauma, what 664 00:39:35.559 --> 00:39:37.920 he did to them, It's just, you know, it is 665 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:40.679 pure evil as far as I'm concerned. That is not 666 00:39:40.760 --> 00:39:46.400 a human thing to do. So it's it's still it's 667 00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:48.880 I can't even go back and read my own book. 668 00:39:48.920 --> 00:39:51.360 I cannot read that chapter. But you know, writing that 669 00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:54.760 chapter I had to disassociate from. It was hard to edit. 670 00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:58.920 It's just most incredibly one of the most incredibly disturbing things. 671 00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:01.880 I think most of us have ever heard from a father. 672 00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:07.559 Well, and not too. It gets worse because he digs 673 00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:10.079 a shallow grave to bury the mother, puts her in 674 00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:16.039 face down. She's fifteen weeks pregnant. I'm sorry, but what happens. 675 00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:19.480 I've never heard of this, and he sees how he 676 00:40:19.559 --> 00:40:20.519 sees what has happened. 677 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:25.199 Yeah, I guess. Then there's a decomposition process where you know, 678 00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:28.079 it's called cough and birth where the baby is. You know, 679 00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:33.800 she's basically given birth after being deceased. And so the 680 00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:37.840 baby was you know, I believe the baby was out 681 00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:40.920 as well. And yeah, and you know, this was the 682 00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:43.639 son he had allegedly always wanted. This says he had 683 00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:46.159 pushed for the third child. He really wanted the son. 684 00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:50.079 Shenanne was so excited to give him a boy. And 685 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:53.360 it was again he's like, I don't even care. He 686 00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:57.000 did not care that about his third child. He did 687 00:40:57.079 --> 00:40:59.880 not care he was having a son. Literally zero attachments 688 00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:03.119 his wife to any of his children. All he wanted 689 00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:06.320 was his new life that he had decided was the 690 00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:08.400 right thing for him, and he was willing to do 691 00:41:09.320 --> 00:41:10.840 anything to get what he wanted. 692 00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:18.840 It's fascinating too that this confession is horrible, but what 693 00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:22.119 he does to his own father that he considers a hero. 694 00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:25.599 He's taken. He's in the police station for questioning. There 695 00:41:25.639 --> 00:41:30.239 is detective bomb Hover, there is a CBI agent, Carleral 696 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:33.440 Bureau of Investigation. So these people are speaking with him 697 00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:39.199 and they're suspicious of him. Immediately his father goes to 698 00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:42.679 this questioning with him. He asked to see his father 699 00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:47.599 at some point in the questioning. They allow that it's 700 00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:52.920 one of the most horrifying parts of incredibly horror horrifying tale. 701 00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:58.559 What does he tell his father about his culpability in this. 702 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.480 Well, you know, one of the things that we have 703 00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:04.480 to look at too is that when they were trying 704 00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:09.079 to extract a confession from him, Tammy Lee was you know, 705 00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:15.400 giving and Graham Coder, the detectives were proposing different scenarios. 706 00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:17.199 You know, they just wanted him to confess with something. 707 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:20.159 They wanted to find the body as quickly because you know, 708 00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:23.559 the more you wait, the less evidence you have. And 709 00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:27.199 so one of the scenarios they had offered him was 710 00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:30.880 they said, did Shenan do something to the girls? Did 711 00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:33.920 she do something? You know, and then did you get angry? 712 00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:37.039 You know, sort of feeding him those lines, and so 713 00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:40.440 when he called, when he said he wanted to speak 714 00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:44.920 to his father, he said that he had seen he 715 00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:47.559 had told Schanan that he wanted to leave her, and 716 00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:51.199 she got so angry that she strangled the girls. He 717 00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:54.280 changed his story at first he said smothered and then 718 00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:57.119 the father asked why she was choking him or was 719 00:42:57.159 --> 00:43:02.039 she smothering him? And he said, oh, choking, so you know, 720 00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:04.920 and he even said he saw them blue in the face, 721 00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:06.920 but the baby monitors are black and white. They're not 722 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:08.679 in color, so I don't even know, you know, when 723 00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:11.280 I'm thinking about all these details, he told, I'm still like, 724 00:43:11.800 --> 00:43:13.559 how could you tell that they were blue from the 725 00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:18.440 baby monitor? Anyway, this is what he told his father, 726 00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:20.320 and by the time he got up there, the girls 727 00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:22.639 were dead and he strangled Shanan in a rage. And 728 00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:25.559 then he didn't know what to do with what he said, 729 00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:28.480 and that's why he put the bodies in the oil tanks, 730 00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:32.159 is that he didn't know what to do. So that 731 00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:40.199 also started a wave of again, you know, people believing 732 00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:42.880 that Sanan did it. And you know, Chris Wats has 733 00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:46.920 had his fans, you know, there's people who still believe 734 00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:49.800 in his innocence, no matter you know, what he's said 735 00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:53.480 or what he's confessed to, and you know, so it's 736 00:43:54.559 --> 00:43:58.400 it's pretty shocking just to think about. And I believe 737 00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:02.559 his his family even you know, there's different stories I've heard, 738 00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:05.239 but you know, I think there's a part of them 739 00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:08.280 that still believe he's innocent or still you know, are 740 00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:11.239 looking and again, you know, of course, I'm they're probably 741 00:44:11.239 --> 00:44:14.519 in such shock and denial, like this is not anything 742 00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:17.719 they ever expected to happen. But obviously they want to 743 00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:22.639 search for any possible answer to make it so that Chris, 744 00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:27.199 you know, doesn't have culpability in this and and that 745 00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:30.840 that you know, was started initially by this false story 746 00:44:31.719 --> 00:44:33.440 that he he brought to light. 747 00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:39.039 Absolutely, let's use as an opportunity to stop talk about 748 00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:42.480 our sponsor, which is fab fit Fun. Fab fifth Fun 749 00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:46.159 is the only subscription that delivers full size self care 750 00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:49.559 and wellness products right to your door. They have you 751 00:44:49.639 --> 00:44:52.400 covered for every season. 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Tell us why you think that it was 782 00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:56.239 that he agreed to a plea deal in this case. 783 00:46:56.280 --> 00:47:00.559 I think there were several reasons. Again, you know, looking 784 00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:05.119 at what I believe is his narcissism, and you know, 785 00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:09.480 I describe this subtype of what's called communal narcissism, which 786 00:47:09.639 --> 00:47:14.119 I believe it's the profile of Chris. To understand how 787 00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:18.320 these narcissistic people operate is they are constantly looking for 788 00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:23.400 something called narcissistic supply, which is attention, admiration, anything that 789 00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:26.360 makes them feel special. They're addicted to it. They'll do 790 00:47:26.440 --> 00:47:30.719 anything to get it. Someone who's a communal narcissist uses 791 00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:35.159 good deeds or the persona of being helpful and trustworthy 792 00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:39.559 to get that narcissistic supply. And so you know, people 793 00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:43.159 always think, well, if people are psychopaths or you know, narcissists, 794 00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:46.079 they don't care what other people think. But actually, narcissistic 795 00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:50.079 people very much care about what other people think about them. 796 00:47:50.119 --> 00:47:53.400 In fact, it's it's central to sort of the way 797 00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:58.079 they operate. They need other people to admire them, and 798 00:47:58.199 --> 00:48:02.639 Chris really need it that, you know, he really needed 799 00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:04.880 people to see him in a good light. And even 800 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:07.440 you know, after his wife is missing and he's texting 801 00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:09.960 with her friends, he's even saying things to them like, oh, 802 00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.000 I don't want you to think I'm a bad person. 803 00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:16.159 And so I also think that there's a part of 804 00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:18.960 the motivation and the crime of you know, people say, well, 805 00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:21.719 why didn't he get a divorce? I think there was 806 00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:25.320 multiple reasons why he didn't do that in his twisted mind. 807 00:48:25.920 --> 00:48:28.280 That's not a normal mind. So normal people don't think 808 00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:31.639 like that, which I think was interesting when I was 809 00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:36.719 studying psychopathy. You know, they'll say that psychopathic people, when 810 00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:39.519 they think about solutions to their problems, they think about 811 00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:43.519 antisocial solutions, so and that that would be murder, for example, 812 00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:47.639 whereas people who are not psychopathic, like Shenan for example, 813 00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:50.239 will think of pro social solutions to their problems, which 814 00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:53.519 is what she did when she started noticing trouble in 815 00:48:53.559 --> 00:48:56.679 her marriage a few weeks before she was killed. She 816 00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:58.559 was sending him self help books. She wanted to go 817 00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:00.760 to counseling. She was looking at her else she was saying, 818 00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:03.519 what can I change to make things better? But that's 819 00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:07.760 a pro social solution to a problem, and so you know, 820 00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:10.559 that's something to understand too. So in Chris's mind, he's 821 00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:13.960 thinking of these anti social solutions. But I also believe 822 00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:17.039 that what would it look like to Chris if he 823 00:49:17.239 --> 00:49:20.639 divorced his pregnant wife and left pregnant white, you know, 824 00:49:21.800 --> 00:49:23.960 his wife with three children, and it came out that 825 00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:27.760 he had a new woman like it would look it 826 00:49:27.800 --> 00:49:30.679 would make him look really bad. And I think he 827 00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:35.480 wanted to avoid that at all costs. And so again 828 00:49:35.599 --> 00:49:38.639 part of that motivation, I think he just wanted to 829 00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:40.639 be rid of them and just didn't want any baggage. 830 00:49:40.719 --> 00:49:43.920 But I also think, you know, he could also set 831 00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:46.960 himself up to look like the victim. You know, oh 832 00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:49.360 my wife. I think he wanted to make it appear 833 00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:51.559 like she left him, and that he didn't have enough 834 00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:54.199 time to set it up that way, but there were 835 00:49:54.199 --> 00:49:57.519 certain things he did and said that alluded to the 836 00:49:57.559 --> 00:49:59.639 fact that you know, oh we had a fight, and 837 00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:03.639 to like me, she took the kids and she left me. 838 00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:06.079 So then he could be this victim and that people 839 00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:08.360 could feel sorry for Chris. And so I think that 840 00:50:08.599 --> 00:50:13.559 was really really important to him that people saw him 841 00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:18.119 in a good light. And so I think the confession, 842 00:50:18.159 --> 00:50:21.440 the early confession, was one to he's still playing the 843 00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:24.760 role of the good boy that he always was, you know, 844 00:50:24.840 --> 00:50:28.800 that he's the people pleaser, he's doing the right thing. 845 00:50:29.320 --> 00:50:31.559 But also I believe he wanted to avoid a trial. 846 00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:34.000 I don't think he expected. I don't think any of 847 00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:37.079 us expected that we would get a public dump of 848 00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:41.519 the documents, which you know, became public records, and everything 849 00:50:41.559 --> 00:50:46.480 came out anyway, and the sentencing was televised, and the 850 00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:52.000 prosecutor he outlined exactly what had happened as well, and 851 00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:55.079 you know, he made look like a horrible person, even 852 00:50:55.119 --> 00:50:59.440 in you know, the short speech that he gave just 853 00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:02.760 just talking about the affair with Nicki. And while his 854 00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:05.400 wife is begging him to talk to her, he's researching 855 00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:10.000 jewelry and Victoria's secret for Nicki, and you know, just 856 00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:13.440 he's already totally forgotten about his life. So yeah, I 857 00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:18.039 believe that he wanted to avoid a trial. He wanted 858 00:51:18.039 --> 00:51:21.960 to avoid being dragged through the mind, and I also think, yeah, 859 00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:27.679 he wanted to just maintain the appearance that he saved 860 00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:29.480 everybody from the trouble of a trial. 861 00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:35.920 Sure, you spoke and consulted with Kim Gorgan's psychologist, and 862 00:51:35.960 --> 00:51:39.719 she talks about her concept of a failed psychopath. But 863 00:51:39.800 --> 00:51:44.039 can we talk about your idea that people might wonder 864 00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:49.239 why somebody seemingly so intelligent and organized to a great degree, 865 00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:53.920 and with this great evidence of a lot of premeditation 866 00:51:54.079 --> 00:51:58.320 into these murders, why somebody so smart could do something 867 00:51:58.360 --> 00:51:59.000 so stupid. 868 00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:03.519 Yeah, And I mean, I guess it's there's different types 869 00:52:03.559 --> 00:52:06.119 of smart and intelligence, right, So we know that Chris 870 00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:10.880 had zero emotional intelligence. We know that they did describe 871 00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:14.000 him as sort of a rain man type like in 872 00:52:14.079 --> 00:52:17.159 certain ways, he was a genius. He could recall facts. 873 00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:19.400 You know, his grandmother when he was a child would 874 00:52:19.400 --> 00:52:21.400 test him in all the state capitals while they would 875 00:52:21.400 --> 00:52:23.159 wait for his sister to come out of school, and 876 00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:26.119 he would get them all right. He was great with cars, 877 00:52:26.440 --> 00:52:30.159 you know, he had this memory that was incredible, so 878 00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:33.239 he had a certain amount of intelligence. But the other 879 00:52:33.320 --> 00:52:38.000 thing again with to me the failed psychopath, was just 880 00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:41.599 an aha moment when doctor Gordon said that to me. 881 00:52:42.800 --> 00:52:45.320 And I'll have to get back to that in a minute. 882 00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:50.199 But again, when somebody is really narcissistic, they do not 883 00:52:50.519 --> 00:52:53.800 think that any They think there's the smartest person in 884 00:52:53.840 --> 00:52:56.079 the world, and they think they can get away with anything. 885 00:52:56.159 --> 00:52:59.920 So Chris thinks he's really convincing. He actually believed that 886 00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:03.639 he could create this scenario and people would believe it. 887 00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:06.599 I think he really thought that he could convince people 888 00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:11.000 that Shenan took off to spite him, and so you know, 889 00:53:11.079 --> 00:53:13.320 he made all these mistakes. He didn't even think about 890 00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:18.440 the GPS tracking in his truck, which you know law 891 00:53:18.519 --> 00:53:21.800 enforcement was going to find. Obviously, he probably doesn't watch 892 00:53:21.800 --> 00:53:23.639 a lot of CSI or crime shows. When you have 893 00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:26.079 the husband is always suspect number one, no matter what. 894 00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:28.920 Like I really, his narcissism I think was so off 895 00:53:28.960 --> 00:53:34.039 the charts that he just he just was believed that 896 00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:37.400 he could convince people of anything, and that I think 897 00:53:37.559 --> 00:53:40.760 was his stupidity and his downfall was his narcissism. He 898 00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:44.719 doesn't understand the perspective of other people, he doesn't give 899 00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:46.000 other people enough credit. 900 00:53:49.880 --> 00:53:54.639 Now with that idea as well, is that the difference 901 00:53:54.679 --> 00:54:01.039 between this, again the failed psychopath. What exactly was his 902 00:54:01.559 --> 00:54:04.039 once he was in prison. We talked about it in 903 00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:08.440 the introduction. What was his attitude and about culpability and 904 00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:11.679 what was his response from his own family after they 905 00:54:11.719 --> 00:54:15.960 realized that, despite their support, that he really was most 906 00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:17.360 likely guilty completely. 907 00:54:18.199 --> 00:54:20.360 Yeah, and again I think his family goes back and 908 00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:22.039 forth about I don't know, I don't speak to them, 909 00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:25.519 I don't know them, but just again from you know, 910 00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:28.199 things I may have heard. I don't know what they 911 00:54:28.280 --> 00:54:32.280 think now. But he in prison has he has shown 912 00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:36.119 no real remorse. You know, everything is him feeling sorry 913 00:54:36.159 --> 00:54:40.079 for himself. It's all about you know, I hear he's still, 914 00:54:40.159 --> 00:54:41.880 you know, trying to think of ways to get out 915 00:54:41.880 --> 00:54:44.760 of prison, one of those things. You know, he's all 916 00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:46.679 of a sudden a reformed man of God, and he 917 00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:51.119 wants to get out and proselytize to people and help people, 918 00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:54.239 and you know, all of these things. But he's never 919 00:54:54.280 --> 00:54:59.000 really shed any real tears. He's never talked about how 920 00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:03.559 he misses his children or any qualities about them. I've 921 00:55:03.559 --> 00:55:06.079 done several interviews, and this is one of the things 922 00:55:06.079 --> 00:55:08.679 that I always share because it stuck out to me 923 00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:12.280 so much. Is when he was talking about his girls 924 00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:17.440 in the interrogations, when he when he knew they were dead, 925 00:55:17.639 --> 00:55:21.039 and he was conjuring up memories of them, and the 926 00:55:21.079 --> 00:55:23.159 only thing he could think of to say about them 927 00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:26.280 was like he missed them throwing chicken nuggets at him. 928 00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:30.760 I was like, wow, that's a really interesting, really cold, 929 00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:34.280 removed thing to say when your children are missing. And 930 00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:37.760 he almost said it with this disdain for them too. 931 00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:40.679 And he even goes on to say that he says 932 00:55:40.719 --> 00:55:44.880 sometimes they're bossies, like there, and he's about to say mother, 933 00:55:44.920 --> 00:55:48.960 and he stops himself. He actually realizes that he is 934 00:55:49.039 --> 00:55:51.199 the images he has at his own children or them 935 00:55:51.239 --> 00:55:54.320 pelting chicken nuggets of them were being bossy. This is 936 00:55:54.360 --> 00:55:57.079 what he thinks. He can't even say anything human about 937 00:55:57.079 --> 00:56:00.440 them when they're missing, Like there's nothing genuine he can 938 00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:05.000 say about them. And even now, you know, he's saying, oh, 939 00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:08.760 I'm looking out the window and I could have a 940 00:56:08.800 --> 00:56:11.039 one year old, a five year old, and you know 941 00:56:11.679 --> 00:56:15.360 how old they would be at the time, but he's like, 942 00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:18.119 but now it's just me, and that's him feeling sorry 943 00:56:18.159 --> 00:56:20.880 for himself. And that's all I've heard from him, is 944 00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:25.559 just constant pity for himself. And I you know, his 945 00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:29.320 his parents still, you know, tell them how much they 946 00:56:29.320 --> 00:56:31.360 love him and they stand by him. And I'm not 947 00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:34.480 here to put a judgment on on that. You know, 948 00:56:34.519 --> 00:56:38.719 other people have their different opinions on that, but that 949 00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:41.920 is I think an insight into how he's never really 950 00:56:41.960 --> 00:56:46.159 taken any culpability or accountability for anything. And I don't 951 00:56:46.159 --> 00:56:49.480 think his you know, his family has never really held 952 00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:52.360 an accountable either, So it kind of makes sense when 953 00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:53.239 you look at it that way. 954 00:56:55.440 --> 00:57:01.119 You mentioned Sherilyn Catle's book and the Confession, just to 955 00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:04.400 tell us briefly about how she was able to do 956 00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:06.800 this and who she is, and just tell us a 957 00:57:06.840 --> 00:57:07.840 little bit about this book. 958 00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:12.440 Yeah, that's the whole mess. You know, her book came 959 00:57:12.480 --> 00:57:15.840 out in October of twenty nineteen, and mine came out 960 00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:19.199 in the first week of December, and shortly after she 961 00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:23.519 published that, there was some scandal around plagiarism, which I 962 00:57:23.559 --> 00:57:26.880 had not known about, you know when my book was published. 963 00:57:26.920 --> 00:57:30.800 But she had plagiarized excerpts from another true crime author, 964 00:57:31.320 --> 00:57:35.440 so it wasn't plagiarism around Chris Watts, but it was 965 00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:38.000 just her own writing. So that book ended up being 966 00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:42.800 pulled off the shelves because because she literally plagiarized. The 967 00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:47.039 author's name is Anne Howard, I believe, and that information 968 00:57:47.159 --> 00:57:49.239 is all out there if anybody wants to, you know, Google. 969 00:57:50.119 --> 00:57:55.559 But she approached Chris apparently. I heard she has a 970 00:57:55.599 --> 00:57:57.840 second book coming up to you, like a follow up 971 00:57:57.880 --> 00:58:01.519 of this. But apparently she had approached Chris in prison 972 00:58:02.039 --> 00:58:04.559 as a as a you know, religious woman and telling 973 00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:07.880 him she wanted to write a story about his past 974 00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:11.039 to redemption, so making it out to be like this 975 00:58:11.199 --> 00:58:14.480 is going to be more of like a religious finding 976 00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:18.360 God book a redemption for him. And she went and 977 00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:20.960 met with him in person. She several times had driven there, 978 00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:24.800 and you know, she has described when he talks about 979 00:58:24.800 --> 00:58:27.119 the murders, his eyes going dark, Like I think she 980 00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:30.159 got some really dark, bad energy from him, And I think, 981 00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:34.760 you know, maybe as she sat with him and spoke 982 00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:37.760 with him, maybe she started to really dislike him. You know, 983 00:58:37.800 --> 00:58:41.480 that's the impression sort of that I get that she 984 00:58:41.559 --> 00:58:44.840 one hundred percent believed he's guilty, but he had written 985 00:58:44.840 --> 00:58:48.280 her letters and in person was the one who had 986 00:58:48.320 --> 00:58:50.679 you know, this was the first time he had confessed 987 00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:54.599 to certain things like giving Shenan the oxy to Miss Carrie. 988 00:58:54.840 --> 00:58:57.679 He had mentioned to SHERYLN. Catle, and some of her 989 00:58:57.760 --> 00:59:00.559 letters the Daily Mail published as an ex elusive so 990 00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:04.199 they're also out there on the internet. But you know, 991 00:59:04.280 --> 00:59:07.639 I think that particular letter in the Daily Mail that 992 00:59:07.719 --> 00:59:11.159 they had printed was one where he is like, after 993 00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:13.840 I buried them and put them in oil tanks, I 994 00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:16.119 drove away and I felt no remorse. All I could 995 00:59:16.159 --> 00:59:18.239 think about was had the dogs eaten? Yet? Like he 996 00:59:18.280 --> 00:59:23.480 would make those kind of comments. And you know, I 997 00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:27.159 don't think any of those actual letters have been disputed 998 00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:32.000 by anybody. I do believe that those letters, you know, 999 00:59:32.119 --> 00:59:36.119 are very much in his handwriting and very much a 1000 00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:39.559 reflection of who he is. But yeah, the entire thing 1001 00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:41.800 around that book, unfortunately, it is just a big mess. 1002 00:59:44.280 --> 00:59:47.199 You cite doctor Douglas Fields that you consulted with, a 1003 00:59:47.239 --> 00:59:51.320 neuroscientist and author of Why We Snap a rage Circuit 1004 00:59:51.320 --> 00:59:55.719 in the brain, regarding and snapping the concept of snapping. 1005 00:59:56.000 --> 00:59:59.960 Can you discuss what he feels, how this would really 1006 01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:03.440 or you feel this would relate to this case? Can 1007 01:00:03.480 --> 01:00:04.119 you discuss that? 1008 01:00:04.880 --> 01:00:07.159 Yeah, it was really important to me to also look 1009 01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:12.440 at neuroscience and snapping because everybody else, everybody wondered too, 1010 01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:14.800 is this a nice guy who snapped? So I thought, well, 1011 01:00:14.840 --> 01:00:17.079 what does it mean to snap? I mean, we know 1012 01:00:17.199 --> 01:00:19.519 there's a show about it, right, there's snapped. And when 1013 01:00:19.519 --> 01:00:22.559 we think of snapped, we think, in a second, somebody 1014 01:00:23.079 --> 01:00:25.599 goes into a rage and does something and regrets it. 1015 01:00:26.239 --> 01:00:29.760 But doctor Fields, you know, studies the brain, and in 1016 01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:34.119 his work he identified that in humans, and you know 1017 01:00:34.159 --> 01:00:37.800 in animals there are about nine circuits in the brain 1018 01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:43.519 that when stimulated or triggered, prompts us to go into 1019 01:00:44.039 --> 01:00:47.960 a violent rage. And so he identified what those nine 1020 01:00:47.960 --> 01:00:50.840 triggers are, and you know, some of them are pretty obvious. 1021 01:00:50.920 --> 01:00:53.760 One he calls he has like a sort of acronym 1022 01:00:53.800 --> 01:00:56.599 for it called life Morse and the L stands for 1023 01:00:56.840 --> 01:00:59.840 life or limb. And so that means, of course, when 1024 01:00:59.880 --> 01:01:02.719 you you're threatened, it's like self defense, right, the self 1025 01:01:02.719 --> 01:01:06.519 defense reasoning when you feel like you're going to be 1026 01:01:06.920 --> 01:01:10.440 threatened physically, like bodily harm or murder, you don't even 1027 01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:13.960 think about it, right, you go into a rage. But 1028 01:01:14.039 --> 01:01:16.719 there's other things too, And you know, one of the 1029 01:01:16.719 --> 01:01:19.360 things that I found really interesting from talking with him 1030 01:01:19.559 --> 01:01:23.119 was called the S trigger, which he says stands for stopped, 1031 01:01:23.920 --> 01:01:27.480 So when whenever anybody feels like they are impeded from 1032 01:01:27.519 --> 01:01:31.199 doing something, that can be stopped. So, you know, he 1033 01:01:31.719 --> 01:01:33.599 explained it to me, is like when you're in traffic 1034 01:01:33.679 --> 01:01:36.239 and road rage comes up, you feel like you're being 1035 01:01:36.280 --> 01:01:40.239 stopped from going somewhere. And this is because these these 1036 01:01:40.239 --> 01:01:42.880 pathways that we have in our brain, these neural pathways 1037 01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:47.039 are primitive. They're you know, they've evolutionary for us. They 1038 01:01:47.079 --> 01:01:51.280 they haven't fully adapted. And so even though the logic 1039 01:01:51.320 --> 01:01:53.960 in us knows like, oh, we're just being we're just 1040 01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:56.280 in traffic, it's okay, we're gonna get we're going to 1041 01:01:56.320 --> 01:01:58.960 get to where we're going to be, the primitive response 1042 01:01:59.039 --> 01:02:02.000 in the brain is like real threat. And so that's 1043 01:02:02.039 --> 01:02:05.639 why sometimes you have people who do really crazy things 1044 01:02:05.719 --> 01:02:08.719 with road rage. And one of the other things he 1045 01:02:08.800 --> 01:02:12.320 mentioned to me is that snapping is what he defines 1046 01:02:12.360 --> 01:02:17.920 as a break from reality, which again, it just it 1047 01:02:17.960 --> 01:02:20.920 doesn't mean that someone is not accountable for their actions, 1048 01:02:20.960 --> 01:02:23.480 and I really think it's important that he says that, 1049 01:02:23.559 --> 01:02:26.280 and I say that as well, that we are all 1050 01:02:26.320 --> 01:02:29.639 fully accountable for our actions. But what I did find 1051 01:02:29.679 --> 01:02:33.679 interesting was that he said this process of snapping can 1052 01:02:33.760 --> 01:02:36.639 go on for weeks or even months. And I had 1053 01:02:36.639 --> 01:02:39.519 read some other SBI profilers that talked about this as well, 1054 01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:43.320 that people think snapping is just an in an instant, 1055 01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:46.199 but this break from reality is like something that also 1056 01:02:46.280 --> 01:02:50.519 allows people for weeks or months to plot something like murder. Again, 1057 01:02:51.239 --> 01:02:53.480 when people are like, how is he so stupid, there's 1058 01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:57.039 also this response from him that's a real break from 1059 01:02:57.119 --> 01:03:00.280 reality where he's not seeing clearly. He just wants to 1060 01:03:00.360 --> 01:03:04.400 get what he wants. And doctor Field doesn't do anything 1061 01:03:04.400 --> 01:03:08.559 with personality disorders or anything like that, but he does 1062 01:03:08.639 --> 01:03:12.239 get letters from people in prison all the time who 1063 01:03:12.239 --> 01:03:14.239 are thanking him. They've read his book and thank you 1064 01:03:14.280 --> 01:03:17.800 for helping me understand. He thinks that with a lot 1065 01:03:17.840 --> 01:03:21.880 of people who snap, they end up having remorse for it, 1066 01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:25.320 and that's where I think, you know, I diverged by saying, well, 1067 01:03:25.320 --> 01:03:30.880 there's people who absolutely do not have remorse, and we 1068 01:03:30.920 --> 01:03:32.679 can see that, you know, with some of I'm sure 1069 01:03:32.679 --> 01:03:36.440 many of the criminals you've covered in your podcasts, in 1070 01:03:36.440 --> 01:03:39.840 your work. So we know that there's a spectrum of 1071 01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:42.639 good and evil, and all people fall somewhere, you know, 1072 01:03:42.719 --> 01:03:46.400 on that spectrum, and there are unfortunately a rare subset 1073 01:03:46.440 --> 01:03:49.280 of people who are who have absolutely no remorse, And 1074 01:03:49.360 --> 01:03:52.039 so I think it's possible for all of those things 1075 01:03:52.079 --> 01:03:55.039 to exist together, which again goes back to the perfect 1076 01:03:55.079 --> 01:03:57.360 storm of factors in my book is I think you 1077 01:03:57.440 --> 01:04:02.639 can be a psychopathic, narcissistic person be you know, have 1078 01:04:02.800 --> 01:04:05.639 that s trigger where he felt he was stopped from 1079 01:04:05.679 --> 01:04:09.159 getting the life he wanted and his anger was then 1080 01:04:09.239 --> 01:04:12.159 in turn projected on to his wife and children, who 1081 01:04:12.280 --> 01:04:15.519 he believed were the barrier for him to get what 1082 01:04:15.559 --> 01:04:17.760 he wanted. And then he turned to his anti social 1083 01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:21.400 solution and thought it was a good idea for him 1084 01:04:21.400 --> 01:04:22.440 to get what he wanted. 1085 01:04:24.559 --> 01:04:29.840 When he texted Nicki at pardon me, Nicki Kessinger that 1086 01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:34.800 his family was gone. Later, when he discussed the case 1087 01:04:34.880 --> 01:04:41.480 and his guilt with her, he acted like, will this 1088 01:04:41.519 --> 01:04:43.920 be a deal breaker? I did not use an exact words, 1089 01:04:44.679 --> 01:04:48.719 can you to discuss his seem to be oblivious about 1090 01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:50.679 that and his statement to her. 1091 01:04:51.119 --> 01:04:53.559 Yeah, I really think he felt like, Okay, got rid 1092 01:04:53.639 --> 01:04:57.760 of my family, you know, after he killed them. You know, 1093 01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:00.920 it's also in the book that he called the girls school. 1094 01:05:01.519 --> 01:05:04.360 It was the daycare as he told them that they 1095 01:05:04.360 --> 01:05:06.280 weren't going to be coming back anymore. This is hours 1096 01:05:06.320 --> 01:05:08.000 after he killed them. He calls the school and says, Oh, 1097 01:05:08.039 --> 01:05:10.119 they're not going to be coming back anymore. Then he 1098 01:05:10.199 --> 01:05:13.239 proceeds to call his real estate agent and says, oh, 1099 01:05:13.239 --> 01:05:15.159 we're putting the house on the market. Let's get it going. 1100 01:05:15.519 --> 01:05:18.519 So he's already like, I've killed the family. I'm done. 1101 01:05:18.800 --> 01:05:20.760 I'm ready to start my new life, putting the house 1102 01:05:20.760 --> 01:05:23.960 on the market, you know, on enrolling my children from school, 1103 01:05:24.639 --> 01:05:27.559 and then texting her and saying, like, my family's gone. 1104 01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:31.360 He responded to an email about fantasy football, saying he 1105 01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:35.199 was in like he was all ready to just go 1106 01:05:35.280 --> 01:05:37.079 forward with his life. And if he had gotten away 1107 01:05:37.079 --> 01:05:41.440 with this, you know, I believe that he he would 1108 01:05:41.480 --> 01:05:44.400 have never had any remorse about it. And Yeah, he 1109 01:05:44.559 --> 01:05:47.920 just expected that, you know, Nicky was going to be like, 1110 01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:50.199 oh okay. I think he just expected that everyone is 1111 01:05:50.199 --> 01:05:53.519 going to be like, Okay, they're gone. Now that's all wealth, 1112 01:05:53.639 --> 01:05:55.559 you know, and NICKI was going to be like, great, okay, 1113 01:05:55.599 --> 01:05:58.159 you don't have a family anymore, let's all. It was 1114 01:05:58.239 --> 01:06:01.599 just a very delusional, illusional state of mind. But again, 1115 01:06:01.679 --> 01:06:05.039 it's just a reflection of how again, these really narcissistic 1116 01:06:05.119 --> 01:06:08.239 people operate. They don't think like normal people. They actually 1117 01:06:08.320 --> 01:06:13.400 think that that's an acceptable response when your children are missing, 1118 01:06:13.960 --> 01:06:16.559 and they can't understand that other people are scratching their 1119 01:06:16.599 --> 01:06:20.239 heads saying, what's wrong with you? This is weird, This 1120 01:06:20.360 --> 01:06:22.480 is not how you respond when your family's missing. 1121 01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:24.360 Yeah. 1122 01:06:24.400 --> 01:06:27.239 And his response too that he said that one of 1123 01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:32.000 the reasons for killing hushan An was that she said, 1124 01:06:32.559 --> 01:06:35.320 you will never see your kids again if you leave. 1125 01:06:35.400 --> 01:06:39.079 So yeah, very interesting. 1126 01:06:39.960 --> 01:06:42.199 Yeah, and we don't know if she said that either. 1127 01:06:42.280 --> 01:06:44.880 You know, again, that's what he says. You know, a 1128 01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:48.360 lot of people have pointed out that, you know, he says, Oh, 1129 01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:50.280 I got angry when she said you'll never see your 1130 01:06:50.360 --> 01:06:52.840 kids again, So then you killed your children so you 1131 01:06:52.840 --> 01:06:54.719 would ensure that you would never see them again. 1132 01:06:54.760 --> 01:06:54.920 You know. 1133 01:06:54.960 --> 01:06:59.280 There's just that there's a lot of discrepancies to what 1134 01:06:59.400 --> 01:07:01.960 he's to what he said. And I don't think you know, 1135 01:07:02.000 --> 01:07:03.480 we're never going to know the full truth. 1136 01:07:05.400 --> 01:07:09.760 What's interesting too, is I mentioned it before earlier, was 1137 01:07:09.800 --> 01:07:14.719 the neighbor named Nate, and also Nicki Atkinson and their role. 1138 01:07:14.920 --> 01:07:18.199 But what's one of the most fascinating, I guess vivid 1139 01:07:18.239 --> 01:07:21.920 cinematic scenes in your book is Nate and some of 1140 01:07:21.920 --> 01:07:26.360 the friends initially tell us about Nate and his video 1141 01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:29.199 footage and the scene where he puts it on the 1142 01:07:29.239 --> 01:07:33.360 television set in front of Chris and some of Shanan's friends. 1143 01:07:34.199 --> 01:07:37.039 Yeah, this is crazy because you know when Nicki Atkins 1144 01:07:37.039 --> 01:07:40.199 been who's one of Shanan's best friends, within hours, she 1145 01:07:40.199 --> 01:07:42.599 had dropped Shanan at her home at two in the morning, 1146 01:07:42.679 --> 01:07:46.280 and literally by nine am, knew something was wrong, and 1147 01:07:46.320 --> 01:07:48.119 you know it called the police to do a wellness 1148 01:07:48.159 --> 01:07:52.440 check in the afternoon. And while the officer Kuonrod, who 1149 01:07:52.480 --> 01:07:54.920 was the one who responded to this scene, well he was, 1150 01:07:55.079 --> 01:07:58.519 you know, going around and looking Nate Trinistitch, their next 1151 01:07:58.559 --> 01:08:00.079 door neighbor, came by and he said, you know, I 1152 01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:02.320 have a security camera that feazes in front of their 1153 01:08:02.320 --> 01:08:04.079 house and I have some footage and you guys just 1154 01:08:04.199 --> 01:08:07.639 come over and watch it. And so Nate, you know, 1155 01:08:07.679 --> 01:08:09.320 they all go to Nate's house and he turns on 1156 01:08:09.320 --> 01:08:11.440 the footage on the TV and you can see Chris 1157 01:08:11.480 --> 01:08:14.480 standing next to it, his hands on his head, He's 1158 01:08:14.559 --> 01:08:16.800 rocking back and forth. This is the only time you 1159 01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:20.039 see real emotion from him. You know, he looks really scared. 1160 01:08:20.840 --> 01:08:22.479 And you know, I think in my book too, I 1161 01:08:22.520 --> 01:08:25.760 had I had cited a research study that showed that 1162 01:08:25.800 --> 01:08:29.520 psychopaths do feel fear. So there is some misconception that 1163 01:08:30.159 --> 01:08:33.479 psychopathic people don't feel anything, but they actually do feel 1164 01:08:34.239 --> 01:08:39.039 fear and anxiety. And so again that's you know, that's 1165 01:08:39.079 --> 01:08:43.439 when he shows emotion, is when he's he thinks he's 1166 01:08:43.439 --> 01:08:46.039 going to get caught because he knows that he loaded 1167 01:08:46.399 --> 01:08:49.800 Shenan's body into the truck and brought the girls out. 1168 01:08:50.680 --> 01:08:53.640 And you know, you can't see too much in that 1169 01:08:53.800 --> 01:08:56.359 video footage. You can see him walking back and forth, 1170 01:08:56.399 --> 01:08:59.079 but you can't really see what he's doing. And there 1171 01:08:59.119 --> 01:09:02.279 have been multiple video that have zeroed in and analyzed 1172 01:09:02.319 --> 01:09:05.880 that that security footage over and over again. And there's 1173 01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:07.720 some footage, you know where you can see like the 1174 01:09:07.760 --> 01:09:09.920 shadows of the girls and him kind of picking them 1175 01:09:09.960 --> 01:09:13.319 up and putting them in the truck, and the prosecution 1176 01:09:13.479 --> 01:09:17.199 has verified that that was the case, that that actually 1177 01:09:17.199 --> 01:09:22.520 did happen, and so so they kind of knew, you know, 1178 01:09:22.600 --> 01:09:24.760 you can kind of know that the girls were alive 1179 01:09:24.840 --> 01:09:27.479 at that point based on that. But yeah, I mean 1180 01:09:27.479 --> 01:09:32.520 it's really interesting that he's really worried he's going to 1181 01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:35.560 get caught and Nate Trinisitch, who doesn't know him, He 1182 01:09:35.600 --> 01:09:37.800 wasn't friends with Shanan and Chris, he was just their neighbor. 1183 01:09:37.880 --> 01:09:40.239 But as soon as Chris leaves, he turns there and 1184 01:09:40.239 --> 01:09:44.159 he's like, this isn't right. This guy's acting weird, and 1185 01:09:44.239 --> 01:09:47.119 he kind of knows. It's almost like everybody, even Shannan's 1186 01:09:47.159 --> 01:09:50.199 mother right away, even though they never would have pegged 1187 01:09:50.239 --> 01:09:53.319 him for it before. It's like this gut feeling that 1188 01:09:53.479 --> 01:09:57.319 everybody had about him, that something was just really really 1189 01:09:57.399 --> 01:10:01.399 wrong with his behavior. And yeah, that was a really 1190 01:10:01.439 --> 01:10:04.479 wild moment that security footage. 1191 01:10:05.439 --> 01:10:09.520 Let's talk about this again. It's amazing to me after 1192 01:10:09.600 --> 01:10:12.199 all of these years that this comes up so much, 1193 01:10:12.279 --> 01:10:16.920 this element that for many people, and I guess nonfiction 1194 01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:20.359 would say, wow, that's just a much tell us about 1195 01:10:20.359 --> 01:10:25.479 the supernatural experience that Sandy has witnessed by her husband. 1196 01:10:27.279 --> 01:10:30.399 Yeah, she had said on Doctor Philip. You know, I 1197 01:10:30.399 --> 01:10:34.119 have kind of researched all different interviews from different places, 1198 01:10:34.159 --> 01:10:38.359 and on Doctor phil she was woken up, you know, 1199 01:10:38.760 --> 01:10:41.119 in the middle of the night and she felt this 1200 01:10:41.239 --> 01:10:45.119 presence of some you know, Shanan, or she heard some 1201 01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:48.159 voice and she it was around four in the morning, 1202 01:10:48.159 --> 01:10:50.399 which could have been around the time Shanan was killed, 1203 01:10:51.199 --> 01:10:54.239 and at that moment she believed that something was wrong 1204 01:10:54.239 --> 01:10:56.600 with Shanana. She woke up her husband and her son, 1205 01:10:56.680 --> 01:10:58.840 Frankie Junior, and she was really worried and she said, 1206 01:10:58.840 --> 01:11:01.640 something's wrong with Shanana. They were kind of like, no, 1207 01:11:01.760 --> 01:11:04.399 it's there, right, you know, you're just having a bad dream. 1208 01:11:04.399 --> 01:11:06.520 It's fine, go back to sleep. But yeah, again, this 1209 01:11:07.479 --> 01:11:09.760 there's a real a sense of a real powerful mother 1210 01:11:09.960 --> 01:11:13.600 daughter connection where it was almost like she the mother 1211 01:11:13.760 --> 01:11:16.840 was experiencing what was happening to Shanan, and you know 1212 01:11:16.920 --> 01:11:18.720 it woke her up. And so I think that that 1213 01:11:18.960 --> 01:11:24.600 was a really another powerful There's so many powerful relationships, 1214 01:11:24.600 --> 01:11:29.159 you know, just thinking about uh, Sandy and Shanan in 1215 01:11:29.199 --> 01:11:33.239 that moment, and the love that Nikki had for her 1216 01:11:33.239 --> 01:11:36.239 friend Shanan, where you know, she didn't have to call 1217 01:11:36.319 --> 01:11:39.079 the police for a wellness check, but It's like she 1218 01:11:39.279 --> 01:11:42.039 just acted on her instincts and she went right away 1219 01:11:42.079 --> 01:11:43.680 for it. And you know, again we have a lot 1220 01:11:43.720 --> 01:11:46.439 of credit to her because without her, who knows how 1221 01:11:46.560 --> 01:11:48.840 you know how much Chris would have been able to 1222 01:11:48.960 --> 01:11:51.800 cover up his tracks. Without her, you know, we may 1223 01:11:51.840 --> 01:11:54.000 not have had Schanane's cell phone which he had hit 1224 01:11:54.079 --> 01:11:57.439 in the cushions, but somebody had found it, you know, 1225 01:11:57.479 --> 01:11:59.560 because he didn't have time to clean up his tracks, 1226 01:11:59.600 --> 01:12:03.159 they were able to find her. Everything was left at home, 1227 01:12:03.279 --> 01:12:06.119 her purse or medication, her phone, the car and the 1228 01:12:06.119 --> 01:12:08.760 car seats were there. So he really had no way 1229 01:12:08.800 --> 01:12:10.600 out at that point because he had no time to 1230 01:12:10.640 --> 01:12:14.239 disclose of anything. And again I credit that to Nikki, 1231 01:12:14.399 --> 01:12:15.359 Shenan's best friend. 1232 01:12:16.680 --> 01:12:16.880 Yeah. 1233 01:12:16.920 --> 01:12:20.640 Absolutely, It's interesting, very much like the Bernard or Homalco 1234 01:12:20.760 --> 01:12:25.199 case when the police do come and of course in 1235 01:12:25.359 --> 01:12:27.239 that case they didn't expect the police to be there 1236 01:12:27.279 --> 01:12:30.239 so soon. There's just like in this case, Chris is 1237 01:12:30.439 --> 01:12:35.520 washing his daughter's clothes, washer and dryer going when when 1238 01:12:35.560 --> 01:12:37.640 they do get to the to the to the home 1239 01:12:38.039 --> 01:12:42.000 and the police officer comes upstairs and what does he 1240 01:12:42.079 --> 01:12:47.640 notice about the beds, again making him immediately suspicious given 1241 01:12:47.800 --> 01:12:51.920 again this pressure where Chris didn't anticipate the police being 1242 01:12:51.920 --> 01:12:53.319 in the house that quick at all. 1243 01:12:54.640 --> 01:12:58.960 Yeah, the Masterbred, you know, had had its sheet stripped 1244 01:12:58.960 --> 01:13:01.159 and there they had found some of the one of 1245 01:13:01.199 --> 01:13:04.039 the sheets in the garbage can at the house, and 1246 01:13:04.359 --> 01:13:08.039 the other sheet was found at the burial site of 1247 01:13:08.079 --> 01:13:10.479 Shenan and they had found that with the drone and 1248 01:13:10.560 --> 01:13:14.239 so yeah, he didn't have time. I mean, it's very suspicious, 1249 01:13:14.359 --> 01:13:17.760 you know that they're going to find sheets with mascari 1250 01:13:17.840 --> 01:13:20.920 staines and things of that nature in the trash can. 1251 01:13:21.000 --> 01:13:24.279 So he was obviously trying to dispose of evidence, and 1252 01:13:24.319 --> 01:13:28.159 again he wasn't very smart. He had also disposed of 1253 01:13:28.279 --> 01:13:30.439 the book that she had self help books she had 1254 01:13:30.439 --> 01:13:34.239 sent him called Old Me Tight Seven Conversations for a 1255 01:13:34.239 --> 01:13:37.439 Lifetime of Love. And he hadn't even opened it out 1256 01:13:37.439 --> 01:13:39.560 of the Amazon box. He literally sort of or he 1257 01:13:39.560 --> 01:13:41.720 had opened the box or something, but the book was 1258 01:13:41.760 --> 01:13:44.079 still in the box and he had just thrown it 1259 01:13:44.800 --> 01:13:47.479 into the trash. And so when the investigators were going 1260 01:13:47.520 --> 01:13:51.760 through everything, they find the sheets in the trash, they 1261 01:13:51.800 --> 01:13:53.840 find the self help book. You know, it was like 1262 01:13:53.960 --> 01:13:59.720 everything was just so discarded by him. It was like done, done, done, 1263 01:14:00.199 --> 01:14:03.439 left behind so much evidence even you know it wasn't 1264 01:14:03.479 --> 01:14:07.239 all forensic evidence, but all of it together really painted 1265 01:14:07.279 --> 01:14:10.439 a picture of the disregard he had for his family. 1266 01:14:13.680 --> 01:14:17.680 Now, we mentioned now that he's in prison, and you 1267 01:14:17.760 --> 01:14:21.119 write that he finds God and believes about his mission 1268 01:14:21.399 --> 01:14:28.279 in life. But also he has fans, fans, fan mail letters. 1269 01:14:28.800 --> 01:14:33.159 So what is his position now about these murders once 1270 01:14:33.159 --> 01:14:35.600 he's in prison, and what does he again I just 1271 01:14:35.720 --> 01:14:37.520 mentioned what does he think his mission is now? 1272 01:14:39.039 --> 01:14:42.039 Yeah, in his mission, I think, well, it may have 1273 01:14:42.159 --> 01:14:45.520 changed by now, But last I heard, you know, he 1274 01:14:45.680 --> 01:14:48.920 is wanting to help people through the Bible. I heard 1275 01:14:49.079 --> 01:14:53.439 with another inmate they're potentially writing some something religious together. 1276 01:14:53.560 --> 01:14:56.800 You know, he's really again I think using it though 1277 01:14:56.800 --> 01:15:00.000 as an angle, Like I think again, for his entire 1278 01:15:00.239 --> 01:15:03.239 of his life, he's used this good boy, helpful image 1279 01:15:03.880 --> 01:15:06.960 and that's gotten him out of trouble. And I really 1280 01:15:07.000 --> 01:15:08.800 think that part of him thinks, like, oh, if I 1281 01:15:08.960 --> 01:15:12.000 just act really good, they're going to let me out. 1282 01:15:12.039 --> 01:15:15.720 But it's almost like he's totally ignorant of the fact 1283 01:15:15.840 --> 01:15:20.680 that he has sentences life sentences for killing three people, 1284 01:15:20.680 --> 01:15:23.640 an unborn child, tampering with human body, you know, with bodies. 1285 01:15:24.079 --> 01:15:28.439 There's so many charges against him that it's like hundreds 1286 01:15:28.479 --> 01:15:31.640 of years, you know, of like you don't just get 1287 01:15:31.680 --> 01:15:34.600 out on good behavior when you do those kinds of crimes. 1288 01:15:34.600 --> 01:15:38.319 But I really believe that he thinks, again his narcissism, 1289 01:15:39.359 --> 01:15:41.840 that he's going to convince everybody that he's this man 1290 01:15:41.880 --> 01:15:45.520 of God. And he does. He gets lots of letters, 1291 01:15:45.560 --> 01:15:48.439 He corresponds with women, some of them visit him in 1292 01:15:48.439 --> 01:15:53.239 prison and talks to him. You know, in the narcissism world, 1293 01:15:53.319 --> 01:15:56.399 we have a term called flying monkeys, which is the 1294 01:15:56.439 --> 01:15:59.279 people around the narcissists that sort of do their bidding 1295 01:15:59.279 --> 01:16:02.319 for them and pass on their messages. And you know 1296 01:16:02.359 --> 01:16:04.279 that could be the case here, is that he has 1297 01:16:04.319 --> 01:16:07.079 all these He does have some people around him where 1298 01:16:07.119 --> 01:16:09.840 he can where then they can talk to the press 1299 01:16:09.920 --> 01:16:13.199 or people magazine and you know, say whatever they want 1300 01:16:13.239 --> 01:16:16.560 to say, that he's a changed man or that, or 1301 01:16:16.720 --> 01:16:19.680 you know, just pass messages from him that he wants 1302 01:16:19.720 --> 01:16:23.039 the public to hear. I did hear. He was upset 1303 01:16:23.079 --> 01:16:26.039 about the Netflix documentary that came out because it painted 1304 01:16:26.079 --> 01:16:29.279 him in a bad light. Again. You know, it's funny 1305 01:16:29.319 --> 01:16:33.039 because I hired an attorney for this book, because you know, 1306 01:16:33.079 --> 01:16:37.920 I'm I'm a psychotherapist. There's ethics involved. I really wanted 1307 01:16:37.920 --> 01:16:41.840 to make sure that this book was ethical legally and 1308 01:16:41.960 --> 01:16:44.479 otherwise and professionally, and I just really wanted to do 1309 01:16:44.560 --> 01:16:47.319 my best with it. And you know, I say, really, 1310 01:16:47.359 --> 01:16:51.680 the only person that I really talk about in a 1311 01:16:51.720 --> 01:16:54.800 negative light of Chris Watts. And my attorney told me 1312 01:16:54.800 --> 01:16:58.960 a funny story that someone in prison who is a 1313 01:16:59.039 --> 01:17:01.960 murderer as well, had written him and was upset that 1314 01:17:02.000 --> 01:17:04.880 there was a book about him and he was, you know, 1315 01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:08.199 talking about libel and all this stuff. And my attorney 1316 01:17:08.199 --> 01:17:10.680 had written back to that prisoner and said, sorry, you 1317 01:17:10.760 --> 01:17:15.079 already ruined your reputation when you killed people. So you know, 1318 01:17:15.239 --> 01:17:20.720 the idea that like there's just nothing You've already done 1319 01:17:20.720 --> 01:17:23.880 this to your reputation, there's nothing you can do to 1320 01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:27.359 redeem yourself, you know, but these people will keep trying. 1321 01:17:27.439 --> 01:17:32.439 They really again, they can't see, they can't see what 1322 01:17:32.479 --> 01:17:34.600 the rest of us are seeing because they don't have empathy. 1323 01:17:34.640 --> 01:17:36.840 They can't put themselves in someone else's shoes. 1324 01:17:39.840 --> 01:17:43.520 You also talk about, I mean the phenomena of someone 1325 01:17:44.399 --> 01:17:49.039 Shnan and also other people the family people in the 1326 01:17:49.079 --> 01:17:52.960 family that didn't see that didn't see the con that 1327 01:17:53.039 --> 01:17:56.319 were duped. And so you talk about it's impossible to 1328 01:17:56.439 --> 01:17:58.680 void being to Why do you think that. Tell us 1329 01:17:58.920 --> 01:18:01.239 discuss that a little bit. Why do you don't think 1330 01:18:02.079 --> 01:18:05.159 it's well, you would think it's impossible to avoid being fooled. 1331 01:18:06.520 --> 01:18:08.880 Yeah, you know. I spoke to a journalist who wrote 1332 01:18:08.880 --> 01:18:10.960 a book called Duped, where she had been duped by 1333 01:18:10.960 --> 01:18:13.159 a con man. Her name's Abby Ellen, and she wrote 1334 01:18:13.159 --> 01:18:16.159 about her experience about it and the psychology of being duped. 1335 01:18:16.199 --> 01:18:18.479 And she's a friend of a friend, so I had 1336 01:18:18.479 --> 01:18:21.840 actually interviewed her for the book as well, and she's like, 1337 01:18:21.840 --> 01:18:25.000 you know, even the smartest people get duped because we 1338 01:18:25.039 --> 01:18:27.279 don't think we're going to be duped. But there's also 1339 01:18:27.399 --> 01:18:30.840 this human side of us that believe the best in people. 1340 01:18:30.880 --> 01:18:34.039 And I think else, if we're generally good people, a 1341 01:18:34.119 --> 01:18:36.239 lot of us have a bias that other people are 1342 01:18:36.279 --> 01:18:39.880 going to act in the same ways we do. And 1343 01:18:41.520 --> 01:18:43.399 I think a lot of us just believe the best 1344 01:18:43.439 --> 01:18:47.840 in people. But I think Chris was an exceptional con 1345 01:18:47.960 --> 01:18:52.239 man in the sense that I really don't believe anybody 1346 01:18:52.600 --> 01:18:55.560 that knew him or was involved with us. Anybody could 1347 01:18:55.600 --> 01:18:58.640 have ever predicted this. That's what a good con man 1348 01:18:58.840 --> 01:19:01.119 he was. And you know, in the book, I talk 1349 01:19:01.199 --> 01:19:05.199 about how psychopaths, and I even cite the experience of 1350 01:19:05.199 --> 01:19:09.079 a self described psychopath about how they spend a lifetime 1351 01:19:09.239 --> 01:19:11.880 crafting a mask that they portray to the world. And 1352 01:19:11.920 --> 01:19:16.039 I think Chris had spent a lifetime mimicking people and 1353 01:19:16.079 --> 01:19:20.439 creating this mask that he put on, and psychopaths can 1354 01:19:20.520 --> 01:19:25.560 create really convincing masks, and that's the scary part. But again, 1355 01:19:26.119 --> 01:19:27.880 he had you know, I don't even think he ever 1356 01:19:27.920 --> 01:19:30.800 really if he had raised his voice with people, it 1357 01:19:30.840 --> 01:19:34.039 had been on a very rare occasion. He had showed 1358 01:19:34.079 --> 01:19:39.159 no signs of violence or anything. Again, all his behavior 1359 01:19:39.199 --> 01:19:43.239 had just been you know, doting father and husband up 1360 01:19:43.319 --> 01:19:46.760 until he met Nikki Kessinger. Apparently, you know, even Shanan 1361 01:19:46.960 --> 01:19:49.840 was shocked. She felt that the carpet had been pulled 1362 01:19:49.880 --> 01:19:52.520 out from under her because she had, you know, in 1363 01:19:52.640 --> 01:19:55.079 private text messages to friends that we have never had 1364 01:19:55.119 --> 01:19:57.680 problems like this in our marriage. This is that of 1365 01:19:57.680 --> 01:20:01.159 the blue. I don't know what happened. So here she 1366 01:20:01.319 --> 01:20:03.600 is for you know, up until she left for the 1367 01:20:03.600 --> 01:20:07.199 summer vacation. She's thinking she has this great marriage. They're 1368 01:20:07.199 --> 01:20:10.399 physically affectionate, you know, they have, they have a good 1369 01:20:10.399 --> 01:20:14.840 sexual relationship, they're loving, they're playful, they have you know, 1370 01:20:15.319 --> 01:20:18.199 she's she thinks that she's got it all. And I 1371 01:20:18.560 --> 01:20:22.359 really believe she felt that way. And I think again, 1372 01:20:22.399 --> 01:20:24.479 one of the chilling moments that you know, I will 1373 01:20:24.479 --> 01:20:28.279 never be able to shake is we have the the 1374 01:20:28.319 --> 01:20:31.399 footage of the last moment, one of the last moments 1375 01:20:31.399 --> 01:20:34.520 of her life, when Nicki Atkinson drops her off at 1376 01:20:34.520 --> 01:20:36.439 her house at you know, around two in the morning, 1377 01:20:36.880 --> 01:20:40.079 and we have the security camerage, the doorbell camera footage 1378 01:20:40.079 --> 01:20:43.960 from her house, and you know, she's walking into her house, 1379 01:20:44.079 --> 01:20:46.840 and you know, we all know now that she is 1380 01:20:46.920 --> 01:20:50.359 walking into her death. And at that point, Chris is 1381 01:20:50.399 --> 01:20:54.119 probably already attempted at smothering the daughters. And she has 1382 01:20:54.159 --> 01:20:57.159 no idea what she's walking into. And that is and 1383 01:20:57.239 --> 01:21:01.119 nobody had an idea. If somebody had, she never would 1384 01:21:01.119 --> 01:21:03.520 have walked into that house. She never would have left 1385 01:21:03.560 --> 01:21:07.399 her children there. Nobody would have ever allowed this to happen. 1386 01:21:07.520 --> 01:21:11.880 And so again I think that just shows the how 1387 01:21:11.920 --> 01:21:16.960 he was really able to dupe and con people and again, 1388 01:21:17.000 --> 01:21:19.359 you know, it goes back to the failed psychopath thing 1389 01:21:19.720 --> 01:21:23.760 where doctor Gorgan's who told me about community psychopaths, which 1390 01:21:23.800 --> 01:21:26.600 is what she did her dissertation on. And you know, 1391 01:21:26.640 --> 01:21:30.399 she said to me, Lena, we only study the psychopaths 1392 01:21:30.439 --> 01:21:32.399 who are in jail, and we call them the failed 1393 01:21:32.399 --> 01:21:34.640 psychopaths because they're not very good at what they do. 1394 01:21:34.720 --> 01:21:36.039 And so that's why I said, you know, there's a 1395 01:21:37.399 --> 01:21:41.000 there's a first thing for every criminal. Chris's first time 1396 01:21:41.079 --> 01:21:43.479 was killing his family that we know of. Who knows, 1397 01:21:43.520 --> 01:21:45.560 you know, maybe there was other things we'll never know, 1398 01:21:46.479 --> 01:21:48.840 but you know, as far as we can tell, I 1399 01:21:48.880 --> 01:21:51.600 think the most likely scenario was this really was and 1400 01:21:51.640 --> 01:21:54.239 she probably didn't even really have a speeding ticket before. 1401 01:21:54.319 --> 01:22:00.359 You know, this is truly his first real crime. But 1402 01:22:00.439 --> 01:22:02.359 she says, you know, there's a whole world of psychopaths 1403 01:22:02.399 --> 01:22:04.279 but never get calls that are never in prison, and 1404 01:22:04.319 --> 01:22:07.720 those are the successful psychopaths. And so I think when 1405 01:22:07.760 --> 01:22:11.279 you put it like that, it's really easy to see 1406 01:22:11.399 --> 01:22:14.800 that he actually just failed at what he said. He 1407 01:22:14.920 --> 01:22:18.840 was probably a psychopath all along and he just eventually 1408 01:22:18.840 --> 01:22:21.119 failed at it, and that's why he's in prison now. 1409 01:22:24.319 --> 01:22:28.439 Tell us the reason for the book being called Daddy 1410 01:22:28.600 --> 01:22:33.199 Is a Hero? Tell us about this incident, Well, you 1411 01:22:33.239 --> 01:22:33.720 know there. 1412 01:22:33.640 --> 01:22:37.000 Was the title to this day is still the I 1413 01:22:37.039 --> 01:22:39.199 still struggle with that. I couldn't think of a title. 1414 01:22:40.560 --> 01:22:43.640 What we wanted to portray, which is me and my editor, 1415 01:22:43.680 --> 01:22:48.079 mostly was the idea again of the con man of 1416 01:22:48.079 --> 01:22:51.000 the you know, the other book about this case by 1417 01:22:51.039 --> 01:22:54.359 John Blaff called The Perfect Father, for example, So I 1418 01:22:54.399 --> 01:22:58.319 think that's the thing that sticks out for everybody about 1419 01:22:58.359 --> 01:23:02.560 this case and the obsession with it is again Bella, 1420 01:23:02.720 --> 01:23:05.159 his daughter. So a few months before he told the family, 1421 01:23:05.239 --> 01:23:07.359 she Shanan had taken a video of her where she 1422 01:23:07.439 --> 01:23:09.640 was singing this song called My Daddy as a Hero. 1423 01:23:10.600 --> 01:23:13.960 And every chapter in the book, for the most part, 1424 01:23:14.039 --> 01:23:17.239 especially the storytelling part of the book where you're going 1425 01:23:17.319 --> 01:23:20.920 through the events, so if it's in real time, every 1426 01:23:21.039 --> 01:23:24.319 chapter has a quote from somebody that's sort of about 1427 01:23:24.319 --> 01:23:29.159 the irony of Chris's double life, like what he portrayed 1428 01:23:29.199 --> 01:23:31.319 to the world versus who he really was. And so 1429 01:23:32.239 --> 01:23:34.079 you know, one of the chapters could be headings, could 1430 01:23:34.079 --> 01:23:36.000 be I couldn't have asked for a better man, which 1431 01:23:36.039 --> 01:23:37.880 is what Shnan said, you know, So they sort of 1432 01:23:37.920 --> 01:23:42.439 all have that a theme to it, about his psychopathy 1433 01:23:42.439 --> 01:23:45.920 and narcissism and how he was able to fool everybody. 1434 01:23:45.920 --> 01:23:49.520 And so I think my daddy as a hero was 1435 01:23:49.600 --> 01:23:52.399 the ultimate con in a way. But it also I 1436 01:23:52.439 --> 01:23:56.520 think it really you know, again goes through these were 1437 01:23:56.560 --> 01:23:59.600 real people. He killed his children, He killed his children 1438 01:24:00.039 --> 01:24:02.159 who called him a hero like this, I think it 1439 01:24:02.239 --> 01:24:07.239 really encompasses the truth severity of what he did and 1440 01:24:07.279 --> 01:24:11.479 that you know, how evil it was. And so I 1441 01:24:11.520 --> 01:24:15.520 wanted I wanted that to really be to come across. 1442 01:24:16.880 --> 01:24:18.720 And I mean it's chilling and it's jarring. And then 1443 01:24:18.760 --> 01:24:22.640 again there's other aspects. Again, Chris's father was his hero, 1444 01:24:22.840 --> 01:24:24.600 so you know, you could interpret it of you know, 1445 01:24:24.640 --> 01:24:29.920 there's different father heroes in this story. And it's sort 1446 01:24:29.960 --> 01:24:34.600 of all again about the the mirage of of what 1447 01:24:34.920 --> 01:24:37.600 of how scary it is that people can pretend to 1448 01:24:37.640 --> 01:24:41.159 be something they're not and fool everybody. 1449 01:24:42.039 --> 01:24:45.439 I know, this sounds almost like a cliche cliche about 1450 01:24:46.000 --> 01:24:49.159 you know, warning signs, something that might be seen so 1451 01:24:49.199 --> 01:24:52.439 that we might possibly prevent something like this in the future. 1452 01:24:53.239 --> 01:24:56.680 But were there warning signs? Were they subtle? What were 1453 01:24:56.680 --> 01:24:58.680 the warnings, if any? Were the yeah. 1454 01:24:58.720 --> 01:25:01.760 I mean the warning signs were not warning signs where 1455 01:25:01.760 --> 01:25:03.760 you would say, Okay, this person's going to kill me 1456 01:25:03.880 --> 01:25:08.439 warning signs, which again is like I said, there's absolutely 1457 01:25:08.520 --> 01:25:12.000 no way anybody would have predicted this or been able 1458 01:25:12.039 --> 01:25:15.880 to stop this. But again I wanted, I wanted to 1459 01:25:16.079 --> 01:25:18.119 make something good come out of this. Again, I did 1460 01:25:18.119 --> 01:25:20.920 not want this to be sensational. I wanted people to 1461 01:25:21.000 --> 01:25:26.880 maybe learn something. I really get very touched when I get, 1462 01:25:27.000 --> 01:25:29.279 you know, letters from people that said, thank you for 1463 01:25:29.319 --> 01:25:31.479 putting this information out there. This could have been me 1464 01:25:31.800 --> 01:25:34.119 I got out. I want other people to read this 1465 01:25:34.159 --> 01:25:37.199 book so they know because sometimes people are in these 1466 01:25:37.239 --> 01:25:40.640 relationships and there are more obvious signs that are there, 1467 01:25:41.560 --> 01:25:45.439 and you know, it's nice to hear that people could 1468 01:25:45.600 --> 01:25:48.560 use this book to identify those signs, and even if 1469 01:25:48.960 --> 01:25:51.680 they're not in danger of being murdered, maybe it will 1470 01:25:51.680 --> 01:25:55.159 make them look at their relationships or put up boundaries 1471 01:25:55.199 --> 01:25:58.520 where they need to put them up. But one of 1472 01:25:58.560 --> 01:26:01.319 the bigger signs I tell people, and again this doesn't 1473 01:26:01.319 --> 01:26:03.199 mean someone's going to This is not a sign in 1474 01:26:03.279 --> 01:26:08.000 someone who's going to murder you, But narcissistic and psychopathics 1475 01:26:08.039 --> 01:26:13.279 people have a pattern in relationships, which is referred to 1476 01:26:13.319 --> 01:26:17.920 as love bombing, devalue, and discard, and so actually you 1477 01:26:17.960 --> 01:26:20.239 can you know, I sort of illustrate how that happened 1478 01:26:20.279 --> 01:26:23.159 with Chris and Shaman. We're in the beginning. He loves 1479 01:26:23.199 --> 01:26:25.399 bombed her. It's in the beginning of this interview we 1480 01:26:25.439 --> 01:26:28.800 talked about him really pursuing her and going over the 1481 01:26:28.840 --> 01:26:35.359 top to win her over. So with narcissistic people, again, 1482 01:26:35.359 --> 01:26:37.279 they're really trying to win you over. They go really 1483 01:26:37.279 --> 01:26:39.640 over the top. They may not even know you well. 1484 01:26:39.680 --> 01:26:42.399 They may know you for two days and say I 1485 01:26:42.439 --> 01:26:43.760 want to send the rest of my life with you. 1486 01:26:44.439 --> 01:26:46.760 That doesn't mean that someone is a narcissist if they 1487 01:26:46.800 --> 01:26:49.000 do that, by the way, but that is that can 1488 01:26:49.039 --> 01:26:51.640 be a red flag if somebody doesn't really know you 1489 01:26:51.720 --> 01:26:54.399 well and they seem to have this agenda to really 1490 01:26:54.439 --> 01:26:58.000 win you over. So that's called love bombing. But when 1491 01:26:58.000 --> 01:27:01.439 you know you're kind of dealing with a person, you know, 1492 01:27:01.520 --> 01:27:04.319 someone with more of a personality disorder. Once they win 1493 01:27:04.359 --> 01:27:08.039 you over, they shift to something called devalue. And so 1494 01:27:08.319 --> 01:27:11.079 in Chris's case, which I think is more rare because 1495 01:27:11.119 --> 01:27:13.279 I think usually in these situations, at least in the 1496 01:27:13.279 --> 01:27:18.520 ones I've encountered personally and in my professional life. The 1497 01:27:18.560 --> 01:27:21.840 devalue face comes pretty quickly, and that's when they become 1498 01:27:22.039 --> 01:27:25.720 very a lot of the times emotionally abusive, although it 1499 01:27:25.760 --> 01:27:28.840 can also be other forms of abuse, and that can 1500 01:27:28.880 --> 01:27:32.560 be look like criticizing or you know, when you know 1501 01:27:32.640 --> 01:27:37.000 something's wrong, or mistreating you. So Chris began to devalue 1502 01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:40.920 Sheanan much later on when he met Nicki. In the 1503 01:27:40.960 --> 01:27:43.840 beginning the first few weeks, he was playing along with 1504 01:27:43.880 --> 01:27:46.239 Shanan while he was having an affair with Nicki. He's 1505 01:27:46.239 --> 01:27:48.640 still telling Shannan he loves her to the moon and back, 1506 01:27:48.720 --> 01:27:52.039 and you know, playing a game. But then when he 1507 01:27:52.119 --> 01:27:54.319 really decides he wants to be rid of his family, 1508 01:27:54.960 --> 01:27:57.239 this is when Shannan starts getting really upset because all 1509 01:27:57.239 --> 01:27:59.800 of a sudden, her husband turns on her. So after 1510 01:27:59.840 --> 01:28:02.000 being together eight years and having a third kid on 1511 01:28:02.039 --> 01:28:03.600 the way, all of a sudden, her husband doesn't want 1512 01:28:03.640 --> 01:28:07.279 the third baby, wants the separation, doesn't want to work 1513 01:28:07.359 --> 01:28:09.399 things out. And so I said, this is a real 1514 01:28:09.520 --> 01:28:13.399 red flag, like when you're with somebody and you have 1515 01:28:13.479 --> 01:28:16.039 children with them and they turn on you with no 1516 01:28:16.159 --> 01:28:20.079 explanation on the drop of the hat. There's something wrong there. 1517 01:28:20.520 --> 01:28:23.279 That's not a person who has real attachments or emotional 1518 01:28:23.319 --> 01:28:27.319 maturity or commitment or investment to you. That's not normal 1519 01:28:27.399 --> 01:28:31.479 for somebody to just flip like that. And so again 1520 01:28:31.520 --> 01:28:34.239 I don't think that was predictive of him going to 1521 01:28:34.319 --> 01:28:36.960 murder her, but I think it was a sign and 1522 01:28:37.000 --> 01:28:39.399 it was true that other things were going on. I mean, 1523 01:28:39.640 --> 01:28:42.760 he flipped because you know, he was having a fair 1524 01:28:42.760 --> 01:28:44.560 and he didn't want anything to do with her anymore. 1525 01:28:44.600 --> 01:28:48.640 But that's the thing with narcissistic people. When they don't 1526 01:28:48.680 --> 01:28:51.159 need you anymore, you're like garbage to them, and they 1527 01:28:51.199 --> 01:28:54.880 only keep people around that again fuel their narcissistic supply 1528 01:28:55.079 --> 01:28:57.319 or serve them in some way. So for Chris, his 1529 01:28:57.479 --> 01:29:01.319 family could have given him admiration, could have made him 1530 01:29:01.359 --> 01:29:03.920 look good to the outside world, like he needed them 1531 01:29:03.960 --> 01:29:07.079 for something, until he didn't. And that's when the discard 1532 01:29:07.119 --> 01:29:09.920 phase comes in. And that's basically like I said, with 1533 01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:13.439 Chris Walks, it was the ultimate discard. Discard we usually 1534 01:29:13.439 --> 01:29:16.479 refer to as like they leave you and then they 1535 01:29:16.479 --> 01:29:18.119 don't want anything to do with you again, or they 1536 01:29:18.159 --> 01:29:22.680 act like you never mattered. Literally discarded his family like garbage, 1537 01:29:22.720 --> 01:29:26.239 like I'm done with you. That's it. You're not human 1538 01:29:26.279 --> 01:29:28.600 to me. And so again that's when we're going really 1539 01:29:28.640 --> 01:29:32.680 to the malignant side of narcissism, the real severe side 1540 01:29:32.680 --> 01:29:38.520 of psychopathy, because the empathy is just pretty much non existent, zero, 1541 01:29:39.479 --> 01:29:42.840 it's so self focused on the gratification of his own 1542 01:29:42.920 --> 01:29:47.680 needs at the expense of everybody else. And so that's 1543 01:29:47.920 --> 01:29:48.920 what I would say about all of that. 1544 01:29:51.039 --> 01:29:53.720 Yeah, he certainly did dispose of these people. He certainly 1545 01:29:53.800 --> 01:29:58.359 discarded them, and in a spectacular, horrible fashion. I want 1546 01:29:58.359 --> 01:30:00.000 to thank you so much for coming on in time 1547 01:30:00.000 --> 01:30:02.239 talking about your book My Daddy's a Hero, How Chris 1548 01:30:02.279 --> 01:30:05.279 Wats went from family Man to Family Killer. You are 1549 01:30:05.359 --> 01:30:10.319 a clinical instructor in the Department of Psychology and Behavioral Science. 1550 01:30:10.359 --> 01:30:13.880 Is at the George Washington School of Medicine, mentoring medical students. 1551 01:30:14.319 --> 01:30:17.479 And tell us about your your co host of a 1552 01:30:17.520 --> 01:30:21.479 psychology podcast. Tell us about what that podcast is and 1553 01:30:21.560 --> 01:30:23.800 if there's a website for this or Facebook page for 1554 01:30:23.800 --> 01:30:24.279 this book. 1555 01:30:26.119 --> 01:30:29.479 Yeah, my god, life, I hate social media. One of 1556 01:30:29.560 --> 01:30:32.199 my close friends as a marketer, and she kind of 1557 01:30:32.840 --> 01:30:34.920 looks at my Facebook page every now and then, which 1558 01:30:34.960 --> 01:30:38.399 is Lena Durholly dot com. That's my website and there's 1559 01:30:38.439 --> 01:30:43.680 also a Facebook page Lina Durholly my podcast because of 1560 01:30:43.680 --> 01:30:48.159 the pandemic. We really my colleague Bob and I who 1561 01:30:48.199 --> 01:30:51.439 have done that together. We really haven't updated it much, 1562 01:30:51.600 --> 01:30:54.760 but you know, we sort of get together as couple therapists. 1563 01:30:54.760 --> 01:30:57.960 He's a male therapist, I'm a female therapist, and we 1564 01:30:58.000 --> 01:31:01.720 talk about all kinds of issues that our clients are experiencing. 1565 01:31:01.840 --> 01:31:04.119 And we do a lot of relational issues and couples 1566 01:31:04.199 --> 01:31:08.119 issues and anxiety, and we do have sessions with Bob 1567 01:31:08.159 --> 01:31:11.720 and Lina, but yeah, we just kinda we do that 1568 01:31:11.840 --> 01:31:15.039 as inspired when we think there's something out there we 1569 01:31:15.039 --> 01:31:16.800 could talk about that could help other people. 1570 01:31:18.520 --> 01:31:21.439 Fantastic, Thank you so much. My daddy is a hero. 1571 01:31:21.560 --> 01:31:24.640 How Chris wass Watts went from family man to family killer. 1572 01:31:24.800 --> 01:31:27.479 It has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much, Lena, 1573 01:31:27.560 --> 01:31:30.119 Dear Hollie, Thank you Dan. 1574 01:31:30.199 --> 01:31:32.800 It's been great speaking with you today. 1575 01:31:32.800 --> 01:31:33.439 Thank you. 1576 01:31:33.239 --> 01:31:34.279 Have you have a great evening. 1577 01:31:34.600 --> 01:31:37.920 Good night you cheer okay, bye bye, good night.