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Speaker 1: These AI softwares are getting through you know, they're finding

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these bootlegged uploaded versions of these and I'm sure you

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could do the same, right, I mean we did it.

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We saw it with Napster, right, remember Napster in the nineties.

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How we I mean we all used it too. I mean,

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I don't know if we're supposed to admit it, but

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we all everyone thought it was this great. Wow.

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Speaker 2: You were listening to Carrie Lutz's Financial Survival Network, where

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you get valuable information you just can't find anywhere else

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to thrive in today's trying times. You need the Financial

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Survival Network now more than ever. Go to Financial Survivalnetwork

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dot com and get your free newsletter and gift. Financial

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Survival Network now more than ever.

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Speaker 3: And welcome you are listening to and watching the Financial

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Survival Network. I'm your host, Carrie Lutz. Well, AI is

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all the rage. I'm using it daily in my work.

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It hasn't reaped placed me on this podcast or on

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the YouTube channel, but who knows it might happen in

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the not too distant future. And that brings up a

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very important concern that you're going to hear about from

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my next guest, Kristen g Roberts, attorney, founder managing attorney

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of Trestle Law out in California. Chris, we have like

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an epidemic now of AI intellectual property theft, if you will,

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because it could take a book, you could feed it in.

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You could redo that book and it will bear absolutely

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no resemblance, superficially on the surface to the original work,

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and then you can go call it yours. I mean,

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what are we supposed to do here?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think that's a really great jumping off point,

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an intrigues interesting starting point, Kerry, because you know, with

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the example you gave of the book, right, you can

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do that. Now you could take make a book that's

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already written and go you individually and rewrite that book

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to be a completely different book, but carry a lot

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of the same themes. Like I'm allowed to write a

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book about a school of wizards. I'm allowed to write

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a book about, you know, a school of wizards where

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somebody goes to the school and they get an invitation. Now,

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whether or not that book is substantially similar enough to

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constitute trade or to constitute copyright infringement, that's the legal question.

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And that legal question still applies with AI and right

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now people are saying, well, you know, AI is training,

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is training the AI software on all of these copyrighted materials.

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So it's sucking everything up off the Internet and learning

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off of these, you know, resources that would otherwise be paid,

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and they're not compensating the people who own the copyright.

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And that right there is the crux right now in

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the legal world. Is that training of AI fa use

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is it? Is it a defensible use of copyrighted materials

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or is it infringement? Do they have to pay? And

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right now there are some cases that are moving through

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the court system trying to answer that question because we

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don't have an answer for it.

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Speaker 3: You know, like makes me think, you know, I don't

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know how many great legal minds they really are out

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there now, But I think of like Clarence Darrow, what

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would be what would his take be an AI? And

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I guess we could ask chat GPT what it thinks

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his take would be?

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, and you know what's you could do that?

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But I also think it's interesting because a lot of

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these sort of older attorney profiles, you know, famous lawyers

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that you would say, what would they think? What would

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they do? I don't even know if they could fathom

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where we are right now when it comes to the

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AI technology or how it would be applied, because there

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is sort of two fast to it. There's the business

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side of things, where you know, we champion in the

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United States innovation in business and technology, and right now

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the AI companies have been going to Congress saying this

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is a matter of national security because if we are

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not able to train our AI platforms, we are going

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to get outpaced buy companies like China, our companies that

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are coming out of countries like China, you know, and

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other sort of competitor uh, you know, AI platforms. So

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they're saying this is this is real national security stuff.

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This isn't just you know, concerns about intellectual property. I

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think it's an interesting argument. I'm not sure if I

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if I buy it, but you know, it's interesting that

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they're going there right now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, like when businesses want stuff out of government, they

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always call it a spot Nick moment, you know, and

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that was not a Sputnik moment.

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Speaker 4: I've used all of them.

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Speaker 3: I've used Rock, I've used Chat, I've used a Claude,

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and I've used deep Seek and I don't even bother

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with deep seek anymore because it just occurred to me.

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It's a front end, it's a query manager for other ais.

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It's not really there. That's why they're able to cut

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down the size of it. But it does raise interesting questions,

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like it's kind of like if you read every if

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you had it within your capability to read every single

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book that was ever written, which obviously we as humans don't,

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then you could do whatever you wanted with that information,

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rewrite it or whatever. But the fact that a machine

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can actually do it the whole sum total of human

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knowledge as we know it, which there's always things that

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aren't going to be there, that's really the issue. You

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know that the machines can do it so much better

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than us, and so much faster and completely so uh yeah,

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I think in theory it's a matter of national security,

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but in reality it's a matter of societal security because

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it's going to start replacing broad swaths of workers in

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the economy, and you know, you won't get any brownie

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points for originality anymore, you know, Kristin, it's like, hey,

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just get the job done.

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Speaker 4: We don't care how you do it.

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Speaker 1: And I also think it has to come it comes

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down to money as well, because you know, if you could,

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in your example, you know, if you could theoretically read

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every book that was ever written, that would be fine.

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You know, you could read every book, but you got

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to pay to read every book, right, You can't just

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go to the internet and find so these these AI

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softwares are getting through, you know, they're finding these bootlegged

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uploaded versions of these and I'm sure you could do

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the same, right, I mean, we did it. We saw

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it with Napster, right, remember Napster in the nineties. How

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I mean, we all used it too. I Mean, I

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don't know if we're supposed to admit it, but we

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all everyone thought it was this great, Wow, we can

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peer to peer share. Why not? Who cares? That sounds amazing?

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And then it turned out to be copyright infringement, right,

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But that law needed to be explored before. So there

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was a there was at least a couple years of

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just unfettered sharing. And I sort of like in what's

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happening right now in this sort of explosion of AI

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technology to that where it's like, Okay, it's getting access

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to all of this stuff that is otherwise needing to

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be paid for typically, and people are getting very upset

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because they're like, well, hey, wait a second, if you

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want to train your AI software on my book, on

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my movie, you need to pay for that in order

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for your you know, license it from us in order

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to train it. And that makes sense to me. I

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think that there does need to be some kind of

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compulsory licensing like we have in music, So if you

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play a song on the radio, there's an automatic license

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that gets you know, applied, and I think the same

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thing can be said about AI. I think the rub

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is going to be when it comes to the licensing

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structure or the ability to license. We already have heard

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metas sort of higher ups coming out in deposition recently

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saying well, we tried to reach out to the publishers,

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but the problem is that the publishers don't own the

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copyrights to a lot of these books. So it's not

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like in music, where the publishing houses have the rights

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to license out even though they don't own the underlying work,

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but they're given the exclusive right to license right so

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right now the publishing houses for books, That's not how

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it's worked in print. Print you go to the copyright

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owner and you ask them and they're like it just

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took us too long to track down everyone we couldn't like,

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So it wasn't they were like it was. They basically

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said it was too hard in a deposition, So we

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just decided not to do it. And I just think

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it's funny because you know there are going to be

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we need these sort of step by step this is

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how it needs to happen. But in order to do that,

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we kind of need a functioning Congress because that needs

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to be an Act of Congress in order to pass

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that kind of legislation. So I don't see that happening

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anytime soon. So we're really relying on the courts to

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make decisions about every case that comes past them. Because

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they're deciding these cases very narrowly. They're not willing to

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make a broad, sweeping statement saying this is how it's

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going to be when it comes.

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Speaker 3: To AI dangerous because.

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Speaker 4: They don't really understand it.

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Speaker 3: Let's face it, courts are the most conservative, reactionary in

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a lot of ways institution in our society, and that's

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the way they were designed to be. The way that

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they've grasped technology and use it in most courts, Yeah,

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they've gotten better, but still ineffect.

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Speaker 1: I actually think that's why it's smart that they're going

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very narrow and they're only deciding it on a case

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by case because if you don't understand something very from

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a very broad perspective, and I mean Congress, we can

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say the same thing about Congress quite honestly, like they

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don't understand that, you know, they were asking questions. I

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remember a long time ago they were interviewing Mark Zuckerberg

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for something and they said, well, can you tell us

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what an algorithm is? And he was like, you know,

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it was like how does it? How does it work?

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Speaker 4: You know, it's like do I keep work?

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Speaker 1: We're reay to be here for a while.

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Speaker 4: And then it's like rolling his eyes, right yeah, and.

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Speaker 1: He's going, oh god, we're here. We're at this, Like

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we can't even get into the the salient points of

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what we're talking about here because they don't even understand

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the basics of how it works right or right And

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the workings isn't always what even matters. It's the outcome

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that we're looking for, right, Like how do you use it?

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Stop trying to understand the like inner workings of it

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and figure out what's the effect, what's the outcome and

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what are you trying to do with it that that's,

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in my opinion, that should be the goal when you're

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applying technology, because do you remember when the Internet first started,

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the World Wide Web, and everyone was everyone would be interviewed.

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It was like Sally Jesse Raphael on her show, and

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you know, all the talk shows were like what is

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the world Wide Web? And they were like trying to

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explain that how the internet worked. And you should have

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just told them like, okay, this is what the Internet's

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going to be able to do. That you could have

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gotten more buy it in a lot faster.

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Speaker 3: So I'm going to ask chat ept now how the

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court should deal with the AI companies and the issue

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of copyright infringement and fair comment.

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Speaker 4: And all that fair use. Rather thank you all right,

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and let's see what it says here, real time, great question.

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Speaker 3: This issue is right at the heart of the current legal,

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creative and technological debate.

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Speaker 4: Let's break it down.

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Speaker 3: Well, now, of course it couldn't just give me a

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one sentence answer here.

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Speaker 1: Well you could about you needed to ask it to

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give you a one sentence answer.

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Speaker 4: Well, I could say just yeah, I can say, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, don't give me any analysis. Just give me the

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answer out to the chase.

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Speaker 4: Give me the answer in fifty words or less. Yeah. So,

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I mean, yeah, you got to know the prompting.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know it was going to give me everything

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it was going to give me here, transparency and disclosure,

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invest in licensing agreements, respect opt out systems, says everything

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they don't want to do years in, Promote public domain

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and open source.

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Speaker 4: Okay, you can agree on that. Yeah, watermark AI generated content. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So I think you know, because I'm seeing I think

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a lot of it is going to come down to

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it's going to it's going to common chunks. We're never

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going to see this sweeping legislation where it all gets

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packaged really nicely and it's dealt with on It's again,

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we're seeing it in the sports already. It's going to

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play out on a case by case basis. We've already

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had one case come down. It was the Thompson Reuter's

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case and it was against the Ross Ross AI Intelligence,

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which was the the legal research. So of course it

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started with legal research, right like the law, but west

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law is sort of the pre you know, premier research

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tool that lawyers use. I use it in my law firm,

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and they have called case headings. Yeah, and the case

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heading sort of you know, explains.

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Speaker 4: That litigated, that was litigated with.

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Speaker 1: It that was litigated. It just came down. Yeah, so

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that and that that that decision just came down in

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favor of Thompson Reuters basically saying is saying that use

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ross using the case notes the head notes in West

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Law that were that were free and open to the public,

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like you can go look those up now without needing

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a you know, but those were written by people and

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they said, yeah, that's an infringement of the copyright. It's

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not fair use. You can't just use those to train

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your AI. But they only applied it in that like

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very narrow case. So but we're starting to see it unfold,

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and I think, you know, we're going to see it

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unfold with other things as well. It's going to be writings,

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it's going to be music, it's going to it's all

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going to kind of come on its own. So we're

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going to see this, We're going to see technology continue

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to explode because in five years we're going to have

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I mean, AI is going to be far beyond what

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it is right now. And the law is still going

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to be playing catch up twenty years in.

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Speaker 4: My year, in a year, it will be.

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Speaker 3: You know, interesting thing about that, the case notes, the squibs,

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the I can't even remember right now what it was

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so long ago, since I was in law school. But

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we were always warned by the professor, don't trust the

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case notes because they're often wrong because they're written by people.

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I'll bet that those case notes are being written by

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AI now. And honestly, AI doesn't need the case note.

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It just needs the case It can create its own notes.

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So they were kind of cheating and actually lessening their

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final product by just scanning the case notes. You need

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the case because you know the case notes are inadequate.

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But shepherdizing that was it like the link between the

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case notes and the shepherdizing it and all that.

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Speaker 4: You don't need any of that anymore. Really it helps.

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Speaker 3: You should never just take AI's word for a case

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of finding or whatever. But it's easy enough to just

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click click the link, and you're reading the case and

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you know whether it's right or wrong. But it is

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like kind of a fascinating I guess we're geeks. We're

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kind of fascinated by nerds. But here it gave a

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one line solution. Here the middle ground. AI companies want

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to innovate, artists and creators want protection. The public wants

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access and progress without as infringement. It's kind of reasonable.

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The ideal solution is a system like how music royalties work.

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Speaker 1: Look at what I said, like I think I.

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Speaker 3: Think it read your paper honestly and plagiarized you. Probably

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creators are compensated. AI systems can still learn and court

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step in only when someone crosses the line.

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Speaker 4: We may even see the creation of.

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Speaker 3: A collective rights management body for AI training secret to

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b M I or ask.

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Speaker 1: Music publishing those are music publishing.

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Speaker 4: How all your paper here? Man?

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Speaker 1: I just exactly see good. But that's but that's really

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that's really the smart thing to do, because we already

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have a system that works that we can model in music. Right,

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we already have that system. It's not it's not reinventing

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the Yeah, but.

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Speaker 4: What about China.

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Speaker 3: They're not going to want to pay anything because they

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steal ip for lunch for breakfast.

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Speaker 1: They do that anyway, Right, We're still where we fight

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that on a daily basis regardless, And so you.

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Speaker 3: Know, maybe there's a way here where they just don't

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get it unless they subscribe.

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Speaker 1: That's above my pay grade.

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Speaker 3: Carrie.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how they would how we block them

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from accessing certain internet site, you know, but maybe there

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are you know, blocks or firewalls, or there has to

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be more site, you know. I'll leave that to the

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what cybersecurity professionals to figure out for us.

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Speaker 3: All right, well, I think we got the issue. I'll

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put this in the show notes. Kristen, where do we

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find you? Where's the best site?

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Speaker 1: Fign me on my website trussel Law dot com, t

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R E S, T L E l a W dot com.

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And I'm also on all social media champ you know, outlets, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, LinkedIn.

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You can find me everywhere.

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Speaker 3: All right, excellent, Well, we'll have a link to your

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site in the show notes of this interview on Financial

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Survival Network dot com.

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Speaker 4: Will be careful not to scrape any of your data.

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Speaker 3: And you've got a question for Kristain myself email kl

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atcarrieluts dot com.

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Speaker 4: And while you're.

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Speaker 3: At the site, if you just sign up for our

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free newsletter, like over seventy thousand, I think we're plus

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seventy five thousand subscribers at signed up. We'd appreciate it.

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It really helps with the algorithms because we have a

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daily war with the YouTube algorithm, you know, suppressing our content,

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suppressing me, and it luckily hasn't mattered much to me,

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but I would like to defeat it by any means possible.

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Christin pleasure, talk to you again soon.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Carrie, bye bye.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to Carrie Letz's Financial Survival Network, your

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solution to today's trying times. For the latest, go to

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Financial Survivalnetwork dot com. Financial Survival Network now more than ever,