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Speaker 1: Hello everyone.

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Speaker 2: This is Martin Willis.

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Speaker 1: This is a recording I did with John Lear. I

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did it the day after his seventieth birthday, that was

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December fourth, twenty twelve. Then I posted the show on

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the twenty third of December that year, and you'll see

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my reference to the main calendar when everyone was saying

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that the world was going to end on December twenty first,

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twenty twelve. At the very end, in mid sentence, it ends,

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and I can't find the rest of the recording, but

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we were just about done. You can't find these recordings

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even though I have them on YouTube, they will not

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come up and searches me interviewing by audio only John Lear.

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Speaker 2: I'm on Skype with John Lear. How you doing John?

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Speaker 3: Real good? Martin? How are you doing great?

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Speaker 2: And you're in Where are you in Las Vegas? You

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know your father was the founder of the lyric jet company,

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Beautiful Jets, a symbol of a status and I just wondered,

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what gets you interested in going down the path of

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ufology to begin with?

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Speaker 4: Well, the first thing I remember is in nineteen forty seven,

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we had a house in Palm Desert, which was just

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down the road from Palm Spring, it was pretty desolate,

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and somehow that book from I think Rupelt or somebody

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wrote a book about UFOs, and I remember reading it

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and being intensely interested in it. The next thing that

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I remember is when I was in the cub Scouts.

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We were this guy's house and I was laying on

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a heel watching the sky, and I sized them and

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go across the sky in three seconds. It was just

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a light and left a thin trail that instantly disappeared.

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So I looked around and said, did you guys see that?

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And everybody kind of looked blankly at me, and nobody

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had seen it. Then the next thing I remembered was

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many years later, I was descending in a Leer jet

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into Los Angeles International and I was over Banning Pass

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in a decent thirty three thousand. I saw an object

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go from left to right, from in back of me

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to in front of me, and it looked exactly like

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the M two f two, which is referred to as

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flying bathtub or that plane that the the six million.

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Speaker 3: Dollar Man crashed in if you remember back that far.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I do remember that, yeah.

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Speaker 4: And when I saw it, I thought it was the

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M two F two. I even went to the trouble

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to call the cheap pilot at Leer Jet when I

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got on the ground and say, hey, you'll never guess

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what I saw. Only years later that I realized how

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ridiculous it was to think I saw an airplane like

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that over the approach corridor of Los Angeles International. There's

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no way they would be doing testing. They would be

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way north up at Edward's Air Force Base.

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Speaker 2: You have flown all kinds of jets, You've won all

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kinds of awards. I believe as a pilot.

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Speaker 4: I held at one time seventeen world records for speed

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in the lear Jet. And also I hold a number

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of certificates which the FAA issues you for various disciplines

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like being a navigator, being an aircraft mechanic, being in

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control tower operator, that kind.

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Speaker 3: Of stuff I see.

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Speaker 2: At one time. Did you actually fly for the CIA?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I flew for Continental Air Services in Southeast Asia.

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They were under contract with the CIA to do the

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same stuff as Air America was doing in Laos and Vietnam.

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And I did that for about a year, and then

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I flew various missions that were CIA sanctioned in the

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Middle East and Africa.

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Speaker 2: Now Lima Site twenty A. Richard Dody had claimed that

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he was there at one time. Did you ever meet

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him there?

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Speaker 3: No, was he what rank was he?

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Speaker 2: I'm not really sure at that time, but he claimed

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that he was there at the Lima Site twenty A.

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I just wondered if that was a place that you

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flew into.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's where we got our daily breathing.

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Speaker 4: We were overnight and then every morning we get in

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the airplane and we'd fly about thirty to forty five

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minutes north into this twenty alternant and we get our briefing.

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The name of the actual name of the of the

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building was Sky Sky, so you referred to it as

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I'm going to Sky.

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Speaker 2: And had had you ever met Richard Dody at a

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later time he was involved in the Benowitz case.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I never met him. I heard lot about him.

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Speaker 4: This is the first time I ever heard that he

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had been in been at twenty alternate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a claim I believe that he had

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made on some blog site or form.

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Speaker 3: It'd be interesting to know in what capacity he was there.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that I saw a documentary quite

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a while ago was one with you talking about Bob

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Lazar and I know that you had. I believed he

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was involved in a real estate appraisal at your house

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or something when you first met him.

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Speaker 3: Is that right?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Bob Lazar had a friend called Jeane Huff, and

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Jeane called me one day and he wanted a copy

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of all my EUFO tapes. I had some the Billy

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Myer tapes and some other tapes. And he offered me,

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he said, I'm an appraiser, and if you'll give me

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a copy of all your tapes, I'll do an appraisal

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for your house. So when he came over to pick

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up the tapes and start the appraisal, he brought with

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him a guy to hold the end of the measuring tape,

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and that guy.

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Speaker 3: Was bibles Arren, and bibles Arre.

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Speaker 4: At that time didn't believe in UFOs in any way,

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shape or form. He told both Gene and me that

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he had worked at Los Alamos, he had the highest

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claims she could get, but he had never seen anything

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of that nature or read anything of that nature.

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Speaker 2: And then yet later on he claimed that he actually

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started working at Groom Lake. And there was a situation

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I heard in one of the shows where you mentioned

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that on a Wednesday evening you went out and write

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when he said there would be testing, you actually saw

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a dome shaped disk or something.

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Speaker 4: That was March twenty first, nineteen eighty nine. I was

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over at his house and he said he was already

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working up as four and he said, they're going to

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test fly tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: Do you want to go up and watch?

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Speaker 4: And I said yeah, but how can we watch without

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violating security? He said, well, there's a dirt road to

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the northeast of the Groom Lake and it's we can

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get pretty close without violating security. And they test at

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nine o'clock, so if we get there about a quarter

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to nine will be okay. So I said, now I'd

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like to do that. So that was the March twenty second,

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nineteen eighty nine. Me and Jean Huff and Bob drove

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up there and we parked on the road about twelve

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miles northeast of Groom Lake and started setting up the telescope.

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And we saw in the distance this bright light. You

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couldn't see any definition of shape because it was too

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far away. So I started setting up the telescope and

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just as it stopped motion and started going down or

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going vertically down behind the mountain. I got the telescope

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lined up and saw, in fact, it was a disc

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and it was radiating a gold or yellowish.

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Speaker 3: Kind of substance.

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Speaker 4: And I watched it for a few seconds, and then

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I pulled away to let Gene huffluck. And as I

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pulled step away, I hooked my foot around one of

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the tripods and moved the scope and he didn't get

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to see it.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of Bob Lazar, there is a lot of ufologists

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who have done a lot of research, and there's a

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lot of speculation that Bob Lazar was a fraud as

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far as the whole story goes. And I know you

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were good friends with him. I just wondered, what you

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have you come to any different conclusion over the years.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, my personal opinion is not a fraudy. When I

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first met him, he didn't believe in UFOs. It took

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us three or four months to get him interested enough

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that he would apply for a job at the Groom

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Lake to his friend, the father of the h bomb,

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forget his name now. I was there when he made

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the call and he got three interviews over the next

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two months. The next thing I knew, he was sitting

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at my desk on a December I think it was sixth,

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nineteen eighty eight, and he says, I saw a disc

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today and I said what, And he said, I saw

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a dish today and I said, theirs are ours? He

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said theirs? And I said, well, what are you doing here?

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I said, why don't you find out what's going on?

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Because they've obviously followed you. Why don't you find out

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what's going on and then tell me? He said no,

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he said, you know, the truth is, I've seen you

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take so much crap over the past few months, and

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so I'm coming forward to tell you that, yes, it's true,

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that everything you said is true. So that was the

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December sixth, and that was when he the first day

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he went to Groom went to what to work up

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at Groom Lake.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people are you know, have looked into

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his educational background and and it just doesn't come up

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to snuff with the positions that he claimed to have had.

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So I know there's still a lot of controversy about that.

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Are you still in touch with Bob these days?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Bob lives in I think it's Bainbridge, Michigan, and I

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think he's the third or fourth largest distributor of scientific

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supplies to schools and universities. And because of the economy,

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he's downsizing. Now he's moving into a smaller warehouse.

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Speaker 2: Now you you actually knew him, or you you actually

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spent a few days at his house?

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Speaker 3: That is that correct?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, A guy named Chris Lambright introduced me to Paul

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and we became a good friends. I stated his house

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two nights and listened to his stories, and he was

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a really interesting guy.

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Speaker 3: The unhappy thing about it was.

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Speaker 4: Three weeks before he passed away, which was about I

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think ten years ago, he called me here in Las

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Vegas and said, John, I'd like to see it, and

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I just I couldn't get the time.

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Speaker 3: I was a.

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Speaker 4: Flying cargo at the time and couldn't get the money

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to take an.

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Speaker 3: Airline there, and I wasn't able to go.

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Speaker 4: But I've always regretted that because I always wondered what

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he was going to tell me.

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Speaker 2: Wow, there was some speculation that after you had left

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that he was angry at something, And do you have

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any idea what that might have been about?

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Speaker 3: Angry at me?

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Speaker 2: Not necessarily you, but to other people that he was

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in touch with. He kind of isolated from that point

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on changed his phone number things like that.

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Speaker 4: Chris Lambright told me that he was angry because he

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told me everything that he knew, and he thought that

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I was going to take a direct to Congress and

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get some resolution on this matter because he felt we

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were very close to be taken over by the Grays

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and he wanted help. But as it turns out, nothing

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much happened, and he was he Paul Benolitz was ticked

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off that I hadn't done anything about it.

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Speaker 2: I see, mm hmm, well that's interesting now. There was

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also a speculation the underground basis in Dulcie, New Mexico

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was kind of something that was thrown at Benowitz to

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kind of get his thoughts off of what was happening

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really close to home.

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Speaker 4: Well, they definitely, you know, Paul Benowitz was the first

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one to come up with Dulcie, not them, and he

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did so by the interviews with I'll have to remember.

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Speaker 3: Her name in a second, was it Ann West? No.

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Anne West lives in Henderson, Nevada.

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Speaker 4: And she was the one that was in contact with

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the security officer that had the videotape and black and

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white photos from Dulcie. The lady that came to his

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house and he did the abduction research on it, and

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she had been taken to Dulcie. And I think that

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was the first any of us that had heard about

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Dulcie and Leo Sprinkle was there. They all got together

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and they did it. And I actually have in my

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files right next to me the original handwritten, handwritten notes

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of the abduction of what's her name and all the

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stuff that happened to her inside Dulcie. So I've heard

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that Dodie and maybe Bildmore and stuff like that put

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that into Benewitz's head. But if they did, then how

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come he was the first one to come out with

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all of this and actually get it on record with

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the Leo Sprinko.

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Speaker 2: That's right, I heard, You're right in the beginning he did.

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He did have some time up in the northwest corner

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of New Mexico saw something, and from what I understand,

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it's possible that when he related it to people like Dody,

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Dody kind of took it and went a little bit

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further with it. That type of thing. I'm not really

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sure of the facts. Another thing I wanted to ask

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you about is the krill memo. Can you talk a

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little bit about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: When I first got together, first really getting deep into

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his UFO stuff, there was a guy that worked at

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Noah's Air Force Base. He was a sergeant, and he

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came to my door and wanted to know if he

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could help, and he showed me some of the research

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he had done, which included some of the stuff on Bentwaters.

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We became a good friends and did a lot of research,

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and he won to write an estimate of where he

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thought we were as far as research on aliens at

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that point, and so he wrote. He wrote this ten

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or fifteen page, maybe it was less than that of

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the situation. And I said, but we'll change the spelling

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to k R I L L. And he said, okay, good,

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And what about a first pamer initials? And I said,

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I don't know, it's up to you. And he picked

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oh out of the out of the thin air.

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Speaker 3: But later Bill