Speaker 1: Hello everyone.
Speaker 2: This is Martin Willis.
Speaker 1: This is a recording I did with John Lear. I
did it the day after his seventieth birthday, that was
December fourth, twenty twelve. Then I posted the show on
the twenty third of December that year, and you'll see
my reference to the main calendar when everyone was saying
that the world was going to end on December twenty first,
twenty twelve. At the very end, in mid sentence, it ends,
and I can't find the rest of the recording, but
we were just about done. You can't find these recordings
even though I have them on YouTube, they will not
come up and searches me interviewing by audio only John Lear.
Speaker 2: I'm on Skype with John Lear. How you doing John?
Speaker 3: Real good? Martin? How are you doing great?
Speaker 2: And you're in Where are you in Las Vegas? You
know your father was the founder of the lyric jet company,
Beautiful Jets, a symbol of a status and I just wondered,
what gets you interested in going down the path of
ufology to begin with?
Speaker 4: Well, the first thing I remember is in nineteen forty seven,
we had a house in Palm Desert, which was just
down the road from Palm Spring, it was pretty desolate,
and somehow that book from I think Rupelt or somebody
wrote a book about UFOs, and I remember reading it
and being intensely interested in it. The next thing that
I remember is when I was in the cub Scouts.
We were this guy's house and I was laying on
a heel watching the sky, and I sized them and
go across the sky in three seconds. It was just
a light and left a thin trail that instantly disappeared.
So I looked around and said, did you guys see that?
And everybody kind of looked blankly at me, and nobody
had seen it. Then the next thing I remembered was
many years later, I was descending in a Leer jet
into Los Angeles International and I was over Banning Pass
in a decent thirty three thousand. I saw an object
go from left to right, from in back of me
to in front of me, and it looked exactly like
the M two f two, which is referred to as
flying bathtub or that plane that the the six million.
Speaker 3: Dollar Man crashed in if you remember back that far.
Speaker 2: Oh, I do remember that, yeah.
Speaker 4: And when I saw it, I thought it was the
M two F two. I even went to the trouble
to call the cheap pilot at Leer Jet when I
got on the ground and say, hey, you'll never guess
what I saw. Only years later that I realized how
ridiculous it was to think I saw an airplane like
that over the approach corridor of Los Angeles International. There's
no way they would be doing testing. They would be
way north up at Edward's Air Force Base.
Speaker 2: You have flown all kinds of jets, You've won all
kinds of awards. I believe as a pilot.
Speaker 4: I held at one time seventeen world records for speed
in the lear Jet. And also I hold a number
of certificates which the FAA issues you for various disciplines
like being a navigator, being an aircraft mechanic, being in
control tower operator, that kind.
Speaker 3: Of stuff I see.
Speaker 2: At one time. Did you actually fly for the CIA?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I flew for Continental Air Services in Southeast Asia.
They were under contract with the CIA to do the
same stuff as Air America was doing in Laos and Vietnam.
And I did that for about a year, and then
I flew various missions that were CIA sanctioned in the
Middle East and Africa.
Speaker 2: Now Lima Site twenty A. Richard Dody had claimed that
he was there at one time. Did you ever meet
him there?
Speaker 3: No, was he what rank was he?
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure at that time, but he claimed
that he was there at the Lima Site twenty A.
I just wondered if that was a place that you
flew into.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's where we got our daily breathing.
Speaker 4: We were overnight and then every morning we get in
the airplane and we'd fly about thirty to forty five
minutes north into this twenty alternant and we get our briefing.
The name of the actual name of the of the
building was Sky Sky, so you referred to it as
I'm going to Sky.
Speaker 2: And had had you ever met Richard Dody at a
later time he was involved in the Benowitz case.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I never met him. I heard lot about him.
Speaker 4: This is the first time I ever heard that he
had been in been at twenty alternate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a claim I believe that he had
made on some blog site or form.
Speaker 3: It'd be interesting to know in what capacity he was there.
Speaker 2: One of the things that I saw a documentary quite
a while ago was one with you talking about Bob
Lazar and I know that you had. I believed he
was involved in a real estate appraisal at your house
or something when you first met him.
Speaker 3: Is that right?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Bob Lazar had a friend called Jeane Huff, and
Jeane called me one day and he wanted a copy
of all my EUFO tapes. I had some the Billy
Myer tapes and some other tapes. And he offered me,
he said, I'm an appraiser, and if you'll give me
a copy of all your tapes, I'll do an appraisal
for your house. So when he came over to pick
up the tapes and start the appraisal, he brought with
him a guy to hold the end of the measuring tape,
and that guy.
Speaker 3: Was bibles Arren, and bibles Arre.
Speaker 4: At that time didn't believe in UFOs in any way,
shape or form. He told both Gene and me that
he had worked at Los Alamos, he had the highest
claims she could get, but he had never seen anything
of that nature or read anything of that nature.
Speaker 2: And then yet later on he claimed that he actually
started working at Groom Lake. And there was a situation
I heard in one of the shows where you mentioned
that on a Wednesday evening you went out and write
when he said there would be testing, you actually saw
a dome shaped disk or something.
Speaker 4: That was March twenty first, nineteen eighty nine. I was
over at his house and he said he was already
working up as four and he said, they're going to
test fly tomorrow.
Speaker 3: Do you want to go up and watch?
Speaker 4: And I said yeah, but how can we watch without
violating security? He said, well, there's a dirt road to
the northeast of the Groom Lake and it's we can
get pretty close without violating security. And they test at
nine o'clock, so if we get there about a quarter
to nine will be okay. So I said, now I'd
like to do that. So that was the March twenty second,
nineteen eighty nine. Me and Jean Huff and Bob drove
up there and we parked on the road about twelve
miles northeast of Groom Lake and started setting up the telescope.
And we saw in the distance this bright light. You
couldn't see any definition of shape because it was too
far away. So I started setting up the telescope and
just as it stopped motion and started going down or
going vertically down behind the mountain. I got the telescope
lined up and saw, in fact, it was a disc
and it was radiating a gold or yellowish.
Speaker 3: Kind of substance.
Speaker 4: And I watched it for a few seconds, and then
I pulled away to let Gene huffluck. And as I
pulled step away, I hooked my foot around one of
the tripods and moved the scope and he didn't get
to see it.
Speaker 2: Speaking of Bob Lazar, there is a lot of ufologists
who have done a lot of research, and there's a
lot of speculation that Bob Lazar was a fraud as
far as the whole story goes. And I know you
were good friends with him. I just wondered, what you
have you come to any different conclusion over the years.
Speaker 4: Yeah, my personal opinion is not a fraudy. When I
first met him, he didn't believe in UFOs. It took
us three or four months to get him interested enough
that he would apply for a job at the Groom
Lake to his friend, the father of the h bomb,
forget his name now. I was there when he made
the call and he got three interviews over the next
two months. The next thing I knew, he was sitting
at my desk on a December I think it was sixth,
nineteen eighty eight, and he says, I saw a disc
today and I said what, And he said, I saw
a dish today and I said, theirs are ours? He
said theirs? And I said, well, what are you doing here?
I said, why don't you find out what's going on?
Because they've obviously followed you. Why don't you find out
what's going on and then tell me? He said no,
he said, you know, the truth is, I've seen you
take so much crap over the past few months, and
so I'm coming forward to tell you that, yes, it's true,
that everything you said is true. So that was the
December sixth, and that was when he the first day
he went to Groom went to what to work up
at Groom Lake.
Speaker 2: A lot of people are you know, have looked into
his educational background and and it just doesn't come up
to snuff with the positions that he claimed to have had.
So I know there's still a lot of controversy about that.
Are you still in touch with Bob these days?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Bob lives in I think it's Bainbridge, Michigan, and I
think he's the third or fourth largest distributor of scientific
supplies to schools and universities. And because of the economy,
he's downsizing. Now he's moving into a smaller warehouse.
Speaker 2: Now you you actually knew him, or you you actually
spent a few days at his house?
Speaker 3: That is that correct?
Speaker 4: Yeah, A guy named Chris Lambright introduced me to Paul
and we became a good friends. I stated his house
two nights and listened to his stories, and he was
a really interesting guy.
Speaker 3: The unhappy thing about it was.
Speaker 4: Three weeks before he passed away, which was about I
think ten years ago, he called me here in Las
Vegas and said, John, I'd like to see it, and
I just I couldn't get the time.
Speaker 3: I was a.
Speaker 4: Flying cargo at the time and couldn't get the money
to take an.
Speaker 3: Airline there, and I wasn't able to go.
Speaker 4: But I've always regretted that because I always wondered what
he was going to tell me.
Speaker 2: Wow, there was some speculation that after you had left
that he was angry at something, And do you have
any idea what that might have been about?
Speaker 3: Angry at me?
Speaker 2: Not necessarily you, but to other people that he was
in touch with. He kind of isolated from that point
on changed his phone number things like that.
Speaker 4: Chris Lambright told me that he was angry because he
told me everything that he knew, and he thought that
I was going to take a direct to Congress and
get some resolution on this matter because he felt we
were very close to be taken over by the Grays
and he wanted help. But as it turns out, nothing
much happened, and he was he Paul Benolitz was ticked
off that I hadn't done anything about it.
Speaker 2: I see, mm hmm, well that's interesting now. There was
also a speculation the underground basis in Dulcie, New Mexico
was kind of something that was thrown at Benowitz to
kind of get his thoughts off of what was happening
really close to home.
Speaker 4: Well, they definitely, you know, Paul Benowitz was the first
one to come up with Dulcie, not them, and he
did so by the interviews with I'll have to remember.
Speaker 3: Her name in a second, was it Ann West? No.
Anne West lives in Henderson, Nevada.
Speaker 4: And she was the one that was in contact with
the security officer that had the videotape and black and
white photos from Dulcie. The lady that came to his
house and he did the abduction research on it, and
she had been taken to Dulcie. And I think that
was the first any of us that had heard about
Dulcie and Leo Sprinkle was there. They all got together
and they did it. And I actually have in my
files right next to me the original handwritten, handwritten notes
of the abduction of what's her name and all the
stuff that happened to her inside Dulcie. So I've heard
that Dodie and maybe Bildmore and stuff like that put
that into Benewitz's head. But if they did, then how
come he was the first one to come out with
all of this and actually get it on record with
the Leo Sprinko.
Speaker 2: That's right, I heard, You're right in the beginning he did.
He did have some time up in the northwest corner
of New Mexico saw something, and from what I understand,
it's possible that when he related it to people like Dody,
Dody kind of took it and went a little bit
further with it. That type of thing. I'm not really
sure of the facts. Another thing I wanted to ask
you about is the krill memo. Can you talk a
little bit about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: When I first got together, first really getting deep into
his UFO stuff, there was a guy that worked at
Noah's Air Force Base. He was a sergeant, and he
came to my door and wanted to know if he
could help, and he showed me some of the research
he had done, which included some of the stuff on Bentwaters.
We became a good friends and did a lot of research,
and he won to write an estimate of where he
thought we were as far as research on aliens at
that point, and so he wrote. He wrote this ten
or fifteen page, maybe it was less than that of
the situation. And I said, but we'll change the spelling
to k R I L L. And he said, okay, good,
And what about a first pamer initials? And I said,
I don't know, it's up to you. And he picked
oh out of the out of the thin air.
Speaker 3: But later Bill