WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:03.480 Oh hi, it's the librarian with the green hair and 2 00:00:03.480 --> 00:00:07.120 the knuckle tattoos. Ali Ward. Welcome to a special and 3 00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:10.480 a very chill episode of Ologies. First things first, we're 4 00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:13.640 going to be talking about some unpleasant sounds, but we 5 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:18.640 will not be providing audio examples of those unpleasant sounds. 6 00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:22.480 This is the trigger free zone, folks. This episode is 7 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:25.879 all about how unpleasant those sounds are to some people 8 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:29.519 who will definitely be listening. I'm sure you can imagine them. 9 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:34.520 We're also doing limited little sound drops and asides because again, 10 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:36.280 a lot of folks are going to be forwarding this 11 00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:40.079 episode to their loved ones who are noise sensitive, and 12 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:42.880 that just feels like a real dick move to put 13 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:45.320 too much extra stuff in there. Also, if I'm being 14 00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:48.079 completely honest with you, I'm feeling very tired and very 15 00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:50.799 lazy this week, so that's perfect for me. Now, this 16 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:53.799 ologist what a gem, introduced to me by another gem, 17 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:57.320 Helen Zaltzman of the podcast The Illusionist, who you remember 18 00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:01.000 as our guest from the Etymology episode. Helen hooked us up. 19 00:01:01.159 --> 00:01:04.079 I've wanted to chat with this expert since the last year, 20 00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:08.159 but pneumonia bested me. Things were delayed, but finally here 21 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:10.920 we are. So this guest is not only a researcher 22 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:14.239 in this field, but also a clinical psychologist who got 23 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:18.040 their bachelors in psychology and a doctorate in clinical psychology 24 00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:22.239 and a doctoral research fellowship a little place called Oxford. 25 00:01:22.519 --> 00:01:25.040 And they have been an absolute leader and a champion 26 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:28.480 in the field of musophonia and in therapies for it. 27 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:32.120 And they wrote the book Sounds Like Mesophonia, How to 28 00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:36.560 Stop Small Noises from Causing Extreme Reactions. Now the back 29 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:39.879 cover of this book it reads like an oasis for 30 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:44.640 musophonic folks. It starts. Are you often infuriated by ticking clocks, 31 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:48.760 noisy eating, loud breathing, or any other small sounds? Do 32 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:51.159 you wish you could sometimes put the world on mute. 33 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:55.040 Sounds Like Misophonia is the first dedicated guide to help 34 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:58.000 you make sense of the condition and design a treatment 35 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:01.000 plan that works for You'll get into all of that 36 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:03.159 in just a minute, but first, thank you so much 37 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:06.239 to patrons at patreon dot com slash ologies for supporting 38 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:08.800 the show, which you can do for as little as 39 00:02:08.840 --> 00:02:11.360 a dollar a month, and we may read your questions 40 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:13.879 in the episode. Thank you to everyone out there in 41 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:16.560 Ologies merch fromologies meerch dot com. I don't know if 42 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:18.560 I ever announced this, but we have some field Guide 43 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:22.039 shirts that I absolutely love and I wear mine out 44 00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:24.280 and about and I hope that no one asks why 45 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:26.080 my name is on my shirt. I just think it's 46 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:29.000 quite stylin. So those are up at ologiesmerch dot com. 47 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:31.680 Also thanks to everyone who has ever left to review 48 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:33.759 for us, because I do read them all. And thank you, 49 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:36.360 especially this week to high school science teacher Gabby Roxs, 50 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:38.759 who said these episodes capture all the best things about science, 51 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:42.439 the curiosity, the humor, the people it's ever presents. Sometimes 52 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:44.400 it's easy to take those things for granted. Thank you 53 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:46.960 Allianologies for making sure we don't. Thank you all for 54 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:51.520 being here. I love this job. Okay, first thing, musicphonology. Now, 55 00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:54.560 the term misophonia was coined in two thousand and one, 56 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:57.680 relatively recently, since this has probably existed for like tens 57 00:02:57.719 --> 00:02:59.840 of thousands of years. And in this episode we'll go 58 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:02.000 for what it feels like to have it, how many 59 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:05.960 people experience it, the most common sounds that trigger it, 60 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:09.479 what your brain thinks is happening, why certain people are 61 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:13.080 situations may be worse than others, how to be helpful 62 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:18.840 to people with misophonia, headphones, earplugs, exposure therapies, cognitive behavioral therapy, 63 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:24.400 experimenting on oneself, age and misophonia, and where zombies fit 64 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:30.520 into it. With clinical psychologist, researcher, author, and mesophonologist doctor 65 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:42.360 Jane Gregory. 66 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:53.599 I'm Jane Gregory, and I use shee her pronouns. 67 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:57.360 And can you define for people who have never heard 68 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:01.919 the term? What exactly misophone or misphonia? Is it pronounced 69 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:03.120 differently in different countries. 70 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:07.360 There's no like shared agreement on how it should be pronounced. 71 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:11.159 I used to say misophonia, but then I came up 72 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:15.240 with the wordplay, It's not you, it's mesophonia, and so 73 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:18.800 now I pronounce it a little bit more musophonia just 74 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:19.879 for the sake of the joke. 75 00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:23.519 Nice, Can you define it for someone who's unfamiliar? 76 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:30.639 Musophonia is a decreased tolerance to specific sounds and often 77 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:34.360 brings up an intense sort of emotional or physiological or 78 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:37.439 even behavioral reaction. So it could be like aggression or 79 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:40.600 sort of shouting at someone. And the reason I say 80 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:44.480 specific sounds is because it's not just a general intolerance 81 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:47.879 of sound overall, it's sort of like your brain is 82 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:50.920 attached to specific sounds being a problem. And for some 83 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:55.040 people that can be one sound that one person makes 84 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:58.199 and that's the only sound that causes problems. For other people, 85 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.240 it could be one sound, but whoever makes it, it 86 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:03.759 causes a problem. And for some people it's a bit 87 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:06.040 more general. It could be lots of different sounds. And 88 00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:09.639 that's different from the sort of overstimulation that you see 89 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:13.000 maybe in ADHD or autism, where people react to lots 90 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.399 of different sounds, or if there are too many sounds 91 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:19.399 that becomes a problem, whereas this is about specific sounds 92 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:22.360 that the brain kind of latches onto and can't ignore 93 00:05:22.439 --> 00:05:24.399 and then ends up causing this kind of vit or 94 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:25.319 flight sort of reaction. 95 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:29.480 And can you give me a rundown of some of 96 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:32.240 the most common ones. My husband has ADHD, and I 97 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:37.360 didn't know until probably ten years into knowing him how 98 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:41.639 much he hates the sound of forks on teeth and 99 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:45.560 forks on a plate. No, I've had so many meals 100 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:49.040 with this man, I had no idea. 101 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:52.360 I am relating very hard to your husband right now. 102 00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:56.439 That sound drives me crazy, and especially on the teeth 103 00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:01.600 it's like it's like I can feel their fork on 104 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:06.480 my teeth. It's like it makes me so uncomfortable. And 105 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:09.720 then that squeaking sound of cutlery on plates as well, 106 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:12.560 it's just really really jarring. And that's a good example 107 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:16.079 of a sound where the acoustic properties of the sound 108 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:21.240 really contribute to that impact that it has on people. 109 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:24.360 So that's similar to like nails on a chalkboard, or 110 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:28.399 sirens or alarms, sounds that the brain isn't supposed to ignore. 111 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:31.120 That means that our brain is not supposed to ignore them, 112 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:36.279 whereas with misophonia, it's often sounds that other people they 113 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:39.279 might find a little bit annoying, but they can tune 114 00:06:39.319 --> 00:06:41.199 them out if they need to, So it could be 115 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:43.199 sounds like eating is the most common one. 116 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:47.160 Hilariously, as if to demonstrate just how wired our brains 117 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:50.360 are to pick up certain sounds, an ambulance wailed past 118 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:51.399 her Brooklyn sublet. 119 00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:54.560 The term is isophonia often gets talked about as if 120 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:57.560 it is rage in response to chewing sounds, but it 121 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:01.240 could be any sounds related to eating. Is sort of slurping, 122 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:03.879 that sort of sound that people make when they're like 123 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:08.199 sucking their teeth, like, I don't know how has to explain, 124 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:10.519 and I'm not going to make the sound because people 125 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:13.399 will who are listening who have is soophonia will hate 126 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:15.480 me for it. So yeah, they're sort of the eating 127 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:17.600 category of sounds. And then there's more like nose and 128 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:21.240 throat kind of category of sounds that's like repetitive sniffing, coughing, 129 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:24.040 clearing your throat, that kind of thing. And then there's 130 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:27.160 a more general environmental category, and that could be sounds 131 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:30.439 still made by people. It could be like cracking your 132 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:34.240 knuckles or something, or sounds that are made by things 133 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:37.639 that people do, like being on mobile phones, being on 134 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:40.720 speaker phone, or the tapping on notifications from mobile phones. 135 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:43.519 Or it can just be sounds in the environment, like 136 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:46.240 an appliance kind of sound, especially if it's a really 137 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:50.600 repetitive sound, and that would include things like rustling packets. 138 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:54.959 And I'm going to stop there, but I feel like 139 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:59.360 there's just the iconic sound of a lars end in 140 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:04.199 a quiet theater. Oh my goodness, that is that's one 141 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:08.199 of those very accepted you can't do that, that's very annoying. 142 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:12.600 But a lot of these sounds and sonic triggers are 143 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:14.839 really personal to people, right, and I imagine a lot 144 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:18.600 of people sort of suffer in silence trying to contain 145 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:22.040 their feelings about it. We all know that nails on 146 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:25.839 a talkboard is a no go and the las end 147 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:26.879 at play. 148 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:31.279 One of my favorite notes from the copy editor for 149 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:34.679 my book was it was just a little side comment 150 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:37.399 that she'd added in response to a comment from one 151 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:39.000 of my editors, and she said, no, no, no, I 152 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:43.120 agree with Jane. Pasta should be eaten quietly, and so 153 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:46.720 if it's loud, you would wanted to capitate them, of course, 154 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:51.200 And it was in a section where I was talking 155 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:54.440 specifically about how in the zombie apocalypse we will be 156 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:57.720 the ones to survive because we will be tuned into 157 00:08:57.720 --> 00:09:02.240 these sounds that the zombies mate. It needs the context 158 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:05.639 to understand the comment, but it was my favorite. If 159 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:08.879 someone's eating pasta too loudly, you would wanted to capitate them. 160 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:12.919 Misophonia. It's serious business, people, especially if you happen to 161 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:17.799 be an undead corpse leading linguini or brains loudly, specifically 162 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:19.960 if they're infected with the zombie virus, it makes sense. 163 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.799 So gloopy, it's very wet. 164 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:24.840 Yeah, and there's no way they could eat that quietly. 165 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:28.519 No, And you know, we did an episode on disgust, 166 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:34.000 and I'm wondering how many of these sounds are alarm 167 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:37.639 and how many of them just signal watch out, something 168 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:39.279 might infect you with something. 169 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:43.200 Speaking of zombies, Yes, that's a really great point. And 170 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:45.559 so there are a lot of sounds where there is 171 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:48.840 an inherent disgust element to it. So, particularly that category 172 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:51.639 of nose and throat sounds, it makes sense that for 173 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:54.279 human survival we would have some of the group would 174 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:57.840 be tuned into those sounds. And we've just experienced or 175 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:00.759 our experiencing a global pandemic and one the first signs 176 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:02.279 that we were told to listen out for was a 177 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:04.759 repetitive cough. And I was like, I've got this. I 178 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:08.759 have been tuning into repetitive coughing my entire life. I 179 00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:11.360 will not tune that sound out. And so if you 180 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:14.519 think about for group survival, that makes sense that some 181 00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:18.279 of the group would be more tuned into those potential threats. 182 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:22.600 It's not an immediate danger, and particularly with contamination, where 183 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:26.519 the threat isn't immediate, the contamination comes later. And that's 184 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:28.919 one of the reasons sort of theoretically why disgust doesn't 185 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:32.679 really respond very well to exposure therapy because we're supposed 186 00:10:32.759 --> 00:10:36.720 to stay tuned in for longer, because the contamination doesn't 187 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:41.360 happen immediately with things like eating sounds, and especially like 188 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:45.279 open mouth, like rude, what we would consider rude eating well, 189 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:47.360 I would consider rude eating sounds, And of course there 190 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:50.279 are lots of cultural differences in terms of what's considered 191 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:52.759 rude or not. So if someone's eating with their mouth open, 192 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:55.360 then they're more likely to be having spit flying out 193 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:57.840 of their mouth, which then could contain pathogens. But I 194 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:02.120 think it's more likely to be a social contamination, so 195 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:04.679 you are not following the rules that we've all agreed 196 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:06.879 that we eat with our mouth closed. But I think 197 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:09.200 there's something really interesting about the idea of manners, because 198 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:12.039 I used to think that I was just really uptight 199 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:15.840 about manners. And you know, it was a big thing 200 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:18.000 in my family that you ate with your mouth closed, 201 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:21.879 and it was a time for like sharing and talking, 202 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:25.159 and it was sort of like a really respectful space, 203 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:27.200 and so if someone was eating loudly, it was really 204 00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:30.360 obvious to me. And I've been told to eat quietly 205 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:31.679 in my whole life, So it made sense that I 206 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:34.399 would react more when people didn't do that. But then 207 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:36.440 I thought about it more and I realized that when 208 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:39.279 there are other things where it's a similar crime, so 209 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:41.720 to speak, Like if someone's got their feet on the 210 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:46.360 seat on public transport, I think that's as rude as 211 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:50.120 eating loudly on public transport. But my reaction to eating 212 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:54.039 loudly is really intense and immediate and anger, Whereas with 213 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:55.759 someone with their feet on the seats, I'm like, oh, 214 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:58.440 come on, like that's annoying, but I can kind of 215 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:00.720 ignore it, Like even went directly affects me. So like 216 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:04.120 today it was a full subway and someone had their 217 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:06.399 they were turned sideways with their feet on the seats, 218 00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:09.000 so they were taking up two seats, and I was like, Ah, 219 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:11.720 that's annoying, but I can deal with it. If that 220 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:14.679 person had been eating a bag of chips, I would 221 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:21.559 have been enraged. So realized that while the context does matter, 222 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:25.159 actually I think my interpretation of how bad the behavior 223 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:27.679 is was influenced by how bad it made me feel. 224 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:30.720 If I feel really bad, then you must be doing 225 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:32.080 something really wrong. 226 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:35.360 Right, And that is what your brain is saying when 227 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:38.919 you have misophonia. If you do, so, who does and 228 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:44.000 what percentage of people have misophonia? In your research, have 229 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:47.360 you been able to figure out what the demographics are 230 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:49.559 or how many people struggle with this. 231 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:53.399 In our research, which is UK based, we did a 232 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:57.120 general population sample and it was representative and we found 233 00:12:57.159 --> 00:13:01.279 that eighteen percent of people fit the category of these 234 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:04.000 sounds cause a big problem for me, and if I 235 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:06.039 couldn't get away from these sounds, it would cause a 236 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:09.559 really strong reaction. It recently got to fined that we 237 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:11.759 should consider it a disorder because there are some people 238 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:14.320 who suffer so badly from it that they would need 239 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:18.000 therapy or accommodations or some kind of support. So we 240 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:21.279 should be considering it a disorder where it's causing distress 241 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:23.399 and impairment on a sort of day to day basis, 242 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:25.759 and that eighteen percent there's no way that eighteen percent 243 00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:29.440 of the population is severely affected by this every day. 244 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:33.080 So these would be people who would if they were 245 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:34.759 stuck in a room with it, it would cause a 246 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:36.919 really strong reaction. But on a day to day basis, 247 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:38.799 maybe they manage their lives in a way that it 248 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:41.840 doesn't affect them too badly, and then there's we think 249 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:46.240 a much smaller percentage who say yes, it causes a 250 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:48.080 significant effect day to day. 251 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:52.039 So while Jane notes research showing that eighty five percent 252 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:55.159 of people in the UK are grossed out or bothered 253 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:58.840 by the sound of loud chewing, roughly eighteen percent of 254 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:02.679 people surveyed are bothered by particular sounds it even lower 255 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:06.039 volumes enough to be severely affected daily, And then a 256 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:09.440 smaller percentage, perhaps five percent, according to some US studies, 257 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:12.039 are thought to be on the scale of having a disorder, 258 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:16.039 and miss aphonia isn't widely understood by the general population 259 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:18.639 or even by many people who have it, which you 260 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:20.879 might be listening to this being like there's a name 261 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:21.320 for it. 262 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:23.120 That's me. 263 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:25.919 Like for me, I didn't talk about it for a 264 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:29.360 really long time because I thought I was just being 265 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:32.200 uptight or a bit of a bitch, and so I 266 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:34.960 didn't say anything. I would just remove myself from the 267 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:38.039 situation or discreetly like put my fingers in my ears, 268 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:39.720 and I didn't want other people to know that I 269 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:42.159 was affected by these sounds. And I think that's true 270 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:43.960 for a lot of people. And that's another thing that 271 00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:46.159 came out of our research is that msphonia isn't just 272 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:49.519 the reaction to the sounds, but it also includes how 273 00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:52.559 you feel about yourself because of the way you react 274 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:55.159 to sounds, so feeling like you're a bad person, or 275 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:57.799 like you must be sort of an angry person inside 276 00:14:57.799 --> 00:15:00.200 because this anger comes to the surface so quick. 277 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:02.759 Like you have auditory bitch disorder. 278 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:04.679 Yeah, exactly. 279 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:07.919 So a lot of people get down on themselves because of. 280 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:12.000 It, Yeah, absolutely, And therefore don't talk about it, don't 281 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.399 ask people to change anything because they feel like, this 282 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:16.799 is my problem. And then there's people who are sort 283 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:19.200 of at the opposite end, where they say, this is 284 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:22.039 a you problem. You need to stop making this sound 285 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:25.320 to make me more comfortable. And I think there's probably 286 00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:27.200 a comfortable middle ground in there somewhere. 287 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:32.120 Well, what about when you've started to accept that this 288 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:36.200 is something that you were experiencing or struggling with, how 289 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:39.360 did you take your research in that direction? At what 290 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:41.279 point were you able to make a job out of 291 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:45.000 something that probably mystified you for a long time. 292 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:50.480 That's an excellent question, because I became interested once I 293 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:53.200 heard that it had a name that got me. I 294 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:57.120 was like, Okay, great, I'm not just crazy, like I 295 00:15:57.159 --> 00:15:59.120 sort of just sort of started to follow some of 296 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:01.360 the support groups and just learn a bit more about 297 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:04.399 missophonia in general. And then I joined some of the 298 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:06.799 support groups and saw how much some people were suffering 299 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:10.200 and realized, like my immense privilege that I had that 300 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.159 I was able to live and make choices in my 301 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:15.360 life about how I lived. That meant that I didn't 302 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.600 have to encounter the sounds as much as other people. 303 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:22.679 So like I could choose where I lived, I could 304 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:25.320 work in jobs where it was okay to put earplugs 305 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:26.919 in to do my job. And there are lots of 306 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:30.720 people who didn't have that option or who people around 307 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.480 them weren't respectful. So my husband knew that if he 308 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:36.120 was going to eat a packet of chips, he would 309 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:38.200 go into the other room because he knows that I 310 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:39.879 don't want to listen to it. But there are lots 311 00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:43.279 of people out there who don't have that sort of 312 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:46.679 respect from other people around them, and therefore are having 313 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.360 to face it more regularly and loaded with a lot 314 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:53.639 more emotion, because it's not just this sound is a problem, 315 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:57.000 but you are doing this to me knowing that it 316 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.000 upsets me. So I started to think about it more 317 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.679 from a psychological perspective than just the sort of auditory 318 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:07.440 features of it. And at the time, I was working 319 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:10.160 as a clinical psychologist in a highly specialized service for 320 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:13.319 obsessive compulsive disorder, and I started to think, I wonder 321 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:16.440 if there are some similarities there, particularly in terms of 322 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:20.680 trying to neutralize things. So in obsessive compulsive disorder, people 323 00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:23.799 who get violent images, for example, they might then try 324 00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:27.240 and do something to neutralize that image. And I realized 325 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:30.240 that I'd done a version of that, which if I 326 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.839 was sitting opposite someone making a horrible eating noise, I 327 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:36.759 would get an image of myself like leaping across the 328 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:39.079 table and stabbing them with their own fork. Like that 329 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:43.559 was just one that's stuck in my head. And noticing that, 330 00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:46.880 my instinct was I have to like suppress that image 331 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:49.799 in some way or I might do it Like what's 332 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:51.680 wrong with me that I'm thinking that, and therefore I 333 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:53.880 might act on it, which is really really similar to 334 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:56.640 what people with OCD experience. And so I started thinking 335 00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:58.799 about it from that kind of perspective, and we now 336 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:02.720 know from research that it's a really distinct disorder. It's 337 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:07.759 not directly related to OCD, but there are some similarities 338 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:11.200 in terms of those mechanisms of what we try to 339 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:14.599 do to compensate for our reactions. 340 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:16.960 But at the time, as a side quest to her 341 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:20.599 regular job at that OCD clinic, Jane partnered with another 342 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:25.559 researcher on a questionnaire to capture the complexities of mistophonia. 343 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:28.720 And this is called the S five and it includes 344 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:32.319 twenty five statements to gauge a person's reactions to various 345 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:35.079 sounds and the emotional effect that it has on them. 346 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.920 Statements you'd rate would be things like if I cannot 347 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:43.839 avoid certain sounds, I feel helpless, or my job opportunities 348 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:47.359 are limited because of my reaction to certain noises. So 349 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:50.759 this S five has explained on her website, sounds like 350 00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:55.400 mistaphonia dot Com is the world's first valid and reliable 351 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:59.200 questionnaire to capture that complexity of the experience, which is 352 00:18:59.240 --> 00:18:59.799 so exciting. 353 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:01.880 And at this stage I wasn't getting paid to do 354 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:04.000 any of this, and I was applying for research clients 355 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:06.200 and not getting any of them because no one cared 356 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:11.200 about this weird phenomenon. But once we'd published the questionnaire 357 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:14.640 got a bit more traction then I got a research 358 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:18.000 fellowship to Oxford, which is kind of amazing that I 359 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:22.279 went from rejection after rejection after rejection to Oxford University, 360 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:24.880 like the top universities of the world. It was very, 361 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:26.440 very validating for me. 362 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:31.640 Jane had mentioned comorbidities and I wondered what role generalized 363 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:36.200 anxiety or OCD or ADHD or autism or other neurodivergence 364 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:40.799 may play in misophonia. And many neurodivergent folks report differences 365 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:45.240 in auditory processing, which can manifest Sometimes there's difficulties figuring 366 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.200 out the direction that a sound is coming from, or 367 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:51.839 understanding language when there's a lot of background noise. My 368 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:55.599 house has these subtitles on everything we watch. I get it. 369 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:59.519 And also it might be hard to follow long spoken directions, 370 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:03.359 so they might prefer quieter rooms or lowered volumes, or 371 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.680 just clearer speech. And auditory processing disorder is more common 372 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:11.759 in neurodivergent people. But what about misophonia rates in those groups? 373 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:13.880 A lot of us want to know. 374 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:18.039 There is some evidence that it is more common in 375 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:23.720 people with neurodevelopmental conditions, specifically ADHD and autism to that 376 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.559 have been looked at, and there's a study that was 377 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:31.400 published recently from mattiam at the University of Sussex who 378 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:36.359 theorized that sensory sensitivity so a just sort of general 379 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:41.200 over responsivity to sensory information or noticing sensory things that 380 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.160 other people don't notice, that that could be the common thread. 381 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:47.079 Then you're more likely to develop miceophonia, and people with 382 00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:52.880 autism and ADHD both are more likely to be generally 383 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:57.039 sensitive and therefore would be more likely to develop misophonia. 384 00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:00.240 But you can also experience misophonia in the absence of 385 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.519 either of those and so it's not a direct link. 386 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:07.599 But people with ADHD or assistic people are more likely 387 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:11.359 to develop miceophonia, but people with mesophonia aren't more likely 388 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.119 to have autism or ADHD, that is more likely to 389 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:18.920 be generally sensitive to sensory stuff. We've got some unpublished 390 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:21.039 data on that as well that one of the master's 391 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:24.759 students I was working with has looked at and sort 392 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:29.119 of loosely found something similar that the association between missophonia 393 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:34.279 and autism, it disappears once you account for general sensory sensitivity. 394 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:37.839 Do you find that people's scores on that questionnaire go 395 00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:42.359 up or down over time, or would you say that 396 00:21:42.519 --> 00:21:46.119 your response to things has changed gotten more sensitive since 397 00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:50.519 you've been studying it, or does it fluctuate with stressors 398 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:53.720 in your life or is it pretty pretty baseline. 399 00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:59.680 It definitely fluctuates depending on mood and fatigue and stress 400 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:02.839 and things like that, and that could be over a 401 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:07.119