WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:09.240 Hi, I'm your host, doctor Lori, and welcome to Universally Unique. 2 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:13.800 Exploring the neurodiverse world of the extraordinary. This podcast foster's 3 00:00:13.880 --> 00:00:20.079 curiosity and understanding about neurodiversity while empowering individuals with tools 4 00:00:20.120 --> 00:00:24.800 for acceptance and inclusion in classrooms, the workplace, and communities. 5 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:29.640 Featuring shared stories of neurodiverse life experiences, it sheds light 6 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:34.240 on navigating a world not designed for diversity. Universally Unique 7 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:44.359 starts now. Hi, this is doctor Lori. Welcome to Universally Unique. 8 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:48.320 My guest today is doctor Stephen Pearl, and before we 9 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:52.079 hear his story of neurodiversity, we are going to take 10 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:58.320 three box breaths. I will count for us. We'll breathe 11 00:00:58.359 --> 00:01:01.719 in for four, hold for four, breathe out for four, 12 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:06.040 hold for four, and then do the next breath. So 13 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:17.319 breathe in two three four, hold two three four, breathe 14 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:28.439 out two three four, hold two three four. Breathe in 15 00:01:29.400 --> 00:01:39.640 two three four, hold two three four, breathe out two 16 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:52.200 three four, hold two three four, breathe in two three four, 17 00:01:53.079 --> 00:02:03.280 hold two three four, breathe out two three four, hold 18 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:11.560 two three four aside to let it out, all right, 19 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:15.439 So doctor Pearl. Thank you for joining me today. Is 20 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:16.800 it okay if I call you Steven? 21 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:19.000 Absolutely okay. 22 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:24.120 So if you would sort of tell us your journey 23 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:29.319 that you've been on with learning more about your own neurodiversity. 24 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:34.000 I know this has been a long learning process. It's 25 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:35.039 been going on for a while. 26 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:42.319 So actually I have this vivid recollection at age six, 27 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:46.479 I guess in first grade. I know where I was seated. 28 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:49.919 I can see the whole room with my dad reading 29 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:53.560 a book, and I don't remember what the book said, 30 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:56.639 but I'll make it up. It's my typical made up 31 00:02:56.800 --> 00:02:59.719 part of the story is that it said I'm reading 32 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:05.400 the Big Red Dog. And my father looks at me 33 00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:08.039 with like, you know, sort of astonishment and says what 34 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:11.759 And I said the Big Red Dog? And he asked 35 00:03:11.800 --> 00:03:14.039 me again and I said the Big Red Dog. And 36 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:17.159 then he points to where the word red would be 37 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:21.360 and there's no red, and he says, where do you 38 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:26.680 see red? And I start crying because it was their daddy. 39 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:31.360 I know that they wanted to hold me back a year, 40 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:35.159 but my dad was trained as an educator and one 41 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:38.319 of his classmates was the school principal, so he got 42 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:45.439 him to push me along and my dad changed jobs 43 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:48.879 a lot, so this was in a suburb of Buffalo, 44 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:56.120 then moved to Toronto, moved back to another Buffalo suburb, 45 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:00.680 and then the second half of fifth grade we moved 46 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:04.800 to Wellesley, mass And for people who do not know, 47 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:08.400 Wellesley is a rather well to do suburb of Boston, 48 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:11.560 my dad had declared bankruptcy, so I'm not a child 49 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:14.719 of wealth, and that's how we ended up. I don't know, 50 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:20.240 that's how we ended up in Wellesley from bankruptcy and 51 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:24.439 nice recovery. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well and you know, 52 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:30.800 Wellesley was for me just a watershed from everything, you know, 53 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:33.680 like every part of life in so many different ways. 54 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:38.000 And prior to Wellesley, I would say that the only 55 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:41.319 thing I excel that in school was science. Everything else 56 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:46.160 I did okay. But in my fifth grade teacher was 57 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:48.519 somebody who wouldn't let you phone it in. You know. 58 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:50.920 She was what we used to describe as a battle axe. 59 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:55.079 One of my classmates had her mom had her for 60 00:04:55.160 --> 00:05:00.399 fifth grade also, yeah, and so she really push me 61 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:03.959 on math. By sixth grade, I did self paced math. 62 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:06.720 I did the entire math book by myself before I 63 00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:09.360 had joined the rest of the class for something a 64 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:12.639 different book. But in seventh grade I went through a 65 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:15.800 whole battery of tests with an educational psychologist which was 66 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.519 based on the recommendations from my fifth and sixth grade teacher. 67 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:22.959 So in middle school and they put me in eighth 68 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:25.519 grade instead of taking social studies, I had a special 69 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:29.639 ed class. And if this was today, it would never 70 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:32.680 happen because I read and did math above my grade level. 71 00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:36.279 But what my fifth and sixth grade grade teachers identified 72 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:40.839 was that my verbal skills were dramatically outstripping anything that 73 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:45.600 I did writing, and so I had a special ed class. 74 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:49.600 It was an experimental program from HW. So you know, 75 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:52.360 I often say to people, I probably have the longest 76 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:55.279 diagnosis of learning disabilities of anyone they'll meet, because that 77 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:56.759 was done in nineteen seventy. 78 00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:01.399 Wow, And it was very specifzific one in the area 79 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:05.160 of writing, because you're reading and your math were above 80 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:05.759 grade level. 81 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:08.759 Well it was it was all sort of learning disabilities, 82 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:10.600 you know at that point in time that they just. 83 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:13.800 Jumbled it all together. But in this current day and age, 84 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:17.439 they would identify it as a learning disability in the 85 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:21.480 area of writing or what they would describe as dysgraphia. 86 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:28.079 Yeah, well, no reading, and there was hearing and also 87 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:34.079 fine motor control. Oh okay, I remember the sort of 88 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:36.600 class activity that, in hindsight I say was the one 89 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:40.199 that deal would find motor control was using a very flat, 90 00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:46.279 brightly colored mosaics what my kids in school when they 91 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:49.680 were in elementary school, the teachers called math manipulatives, okay, 92 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:53.240 And we would make these huge mosaics on you know, 93 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:56.399 a six foot diameter table. So if you push a 94 00:06:56.399 --> 00:07:01.279 little bit hard because they're mostly triangles or yeah, what's 95 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:04.519 what's the shape when it's two triangles on top, you know, 96 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.680 one on top of the other, and and and you 97 00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:09.720 would move, you know, if you screwed it up while 98 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:11.680 you had all these other people who worked on it also, 99 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:14.360 so you had to fit and fit it all together again. 100 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:16.920 And there are also activities they did that were specific 101 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:22.279 to hearing. Mm hmm, although I you know, there's a 102 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:24.600 lot of what I think they identified at hearing was 103 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:28.680 just the difference of having a Buffalo accent, the Toronto 104 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:33.279 accent to Wellesley you know, Massachusetts accent. But you know, 105 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:35.639 my wife would say, I still have hearing difficulties, but 106 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:36.279 that's I. 107 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:40.079 Think Yeah, that's that's what our wife say, right, right exactly. 108 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:43.000 I don't think he it's not so much that he's 109 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:44.480 not hearing, it's that he's. 110 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:48.319 Not listening, right, And you know, and and and I'd 111 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:51.519 say from my own standpoint, you know, I realized that 112 00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:56.199 I don't have very linear thinking. So throughout high school 113 00:07:56.240 --> 00:07:58.120 when I had to write papers, my mother would type 114 00:07:58.120 --> 00:08:00.040 them for me, and i'd write them out longhand and 115 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:02.720 it'd be the kind of thing that, you know, I'd 116 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:04.839 get two or three pages into it, and then I 117 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:07.639 would write a whole new paragraph that I put a 118 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:09.839 big carrot down the side, write a letter A, and 119 00:08:09.879 --> 00:08:12.519 then go back and write a little A. And she 120 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:17.759 would insert that in there. And I know the thing 121 00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:21.000 that fixed that and made me from someone who didn't write, 122 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:23.879 I mean, he took a class in college and creative writing. 123 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:27.120 What took me from a non writer to a writer 124 00:08:27.319 --> 00:08:31.360 was a computer because the nonlinear thinking was irrelevant. I 125 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:34.159 stream of consciousness, put it all there and then jumble 126 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:38.320 it back around afterwards. It's also a computer screen seemed 127 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:40.480 to work better with the way I can read. 128 00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:46.600 Yeah, I think for many students, folks have figured out 129 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:50.480 that giving them a keyboard and a computer changed everything. 130 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:54.440 And then for some other students that actually is not 131 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:56.720 the right way to go, and looking at everybody from 132 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:01.120 an individual perspective is really really critical. Some kids do 133 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:05.759 better if you if you actually dictate, you know, into 134 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:09.000 some kind of you know, program that that'll accept the 135 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:12.080 audio part and then go back and figure out I 136 00:09:12.279 --> 00:09:14.320 just talked at it, and now let me figure out 137 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:15.360 how to rearrange it. 138 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:20.639 And and the audio is an interesting thing because when 139 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:24.559 I was in chiropractic college, and you know, an enormous 140 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:29.240 volume of material to read, and I would tape record 141 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:33.080 my classes, and so I was. I was in school 142 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:34.840 in Texas from seventy nine to eighty three, and I 143 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:39.200 bought this very early tape cassette tape player that would 144 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:43.279 play back things at a faster speed. I can listen faster, 145 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.080 but it didn't make the pitch go high. It you know, 146 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:50.440 chopped out little pieces and squished it together. 147 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:53.320 Oh so it didn't sound like Mini Mouse. 148 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:57.200 Right exactly, which you know, if you do this with 149 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:00.519 YouTube or any different reels, you can go and change 150 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:03.080 the playback speed and it doesn't make it sound like 151 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:08.919 like Minni. And Mickey was oh, snoopy. I thought, I 152 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:12.120 thought I had, I thought a mouse on it. 153 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:15.320 I needed that tape recorder when I was taking a 154 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:18.679 gross anatomy because I very faithfully and religiously taped every 155 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:21.799 single lecture but never listened to them again because they 156 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:24.399 took two hours and I did like, I couldn't figure 157 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:27.440 out how to where the time was. I didn't do 158 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:31.080 well in that class. But that's that's somewhat I am 159 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:33.639 now a special educator and not what I had originally 160 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:36.279 started out to be that needed to pass gross anatomy. 161 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:41.440 But so I think, though you're your nonlinear thinking, though 162 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:44.679 has taken you in a variety of different directions, and 163 00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:47.799 it has opened you up to a variety of different 164 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:50.600 I don't know if I want to call them subsets 165 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:56.480 or different aspects of your chiro chiropractic career. Would that 166 00:10:56.519 --> 00:10:57.120 be correct? 167 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.600 Well, you know, I practiced the New York from eighty 168 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:05.320 three till ninety one, and in the last couple of years, 169 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:08.960 I sort of, you know, I started reading actually a 170 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:12.679 lot more scientific literature and the things that I was 171 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:17.799 seeing with patients. I started asking the question, let's you know, 172 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:22.639 investigate this from a you know, a research standpoint, and 173 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:26.120 I started jumbling in my head about doing that, and 174 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:28.960 then the opportunity came along when the University of Bridgeport 175 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:32.120 started their chiropractic program in nineteen ninety one, and I 176 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:35.759 sold my practice and was the first faculty member hired then. 177 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:39.120 And then during during the time period that I was 178 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:43.080 at you b the nonlinearity comes into the fact that 179 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:50.120 my original research was all biomechanics related, and then I 180 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:52.559 don't know, I'd have a conversation with someone and we'd 181 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:54.960 think up an idea, and then we'd go that way, 182 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:57.000 and then I'd have a conversation with somebody else and 183 00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:01.519 we'd go this way. And so I have a pretty 184 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:06.039 diverse set of published papers. And the weirdest one is 185 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:10.039 that my right now most cited paper is about AI. 186 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:13.960 Oh, okay, fairly recent. 187 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:19.279 Two years ago, and it's my previously most cited paper 188 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:21.960 was one I did with some colleagues on factors affecting 189 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:26.759 Masters athletes, and that one, you know, was was way 190 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:30.759 up there and in less than and that was thirty 191 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:34.919 years ago, and this AI one in two years is 192 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:37.240 blown past that. For a number of citations, I mean 193 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:39.480 every day I get some notification almost every day, I 194 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:41.679 get a notification that was cited by another journal. 195 00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:47.279 So give me a little bit of a give me 196 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:51.200 the abstract on this on this AI paper, is it 197 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:54.480 focusing on how you would use AI and your practice 198 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:58.159 or what is it? 199 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:03.120 Was? It was really about can AI write scholarly papers? 200 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:03.799 Oh? 201 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:08.279 Okay? And we you know, we discussed that issue and 202 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:12.200 discuss the issue, you know, which is pretty old tech 203 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:14.360 at this point in time, about how to determine whether 204 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:18.200 something was written by AI. But I guess it's foundational 205 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:20.080 to a lot of people that we were the first 206 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:22.360 ones asking this question. And then what we also did 207 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:26.080 was we had an AI I think it was chech 208 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:30.759 Gpt write the paper and then see could we identify, 209 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:33.200 you know, because we had already written it, but then 210 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:36.039 see if it wrote the paper and could we identify 211 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:38.000 or did it come up with something similar to what 212 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:38.399 we did. 213 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:43.759 So well, that's interesting and I think currently within education, 214 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:47.120 I know, my husband came back yesterday and said something 215 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:50.360 about kids are handing in work that was completely done 216 00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:56.639 by AI. They don't even have enough I don't know, desire, knowledge, 217 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:00.120 understanding or whatever that you should at least try to 218 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:03.720 make it sound like a yours. But I think that's, 219 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:07.639 you know, becoming a really big issue. It's it's an 220 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:10.519 awful out Like the Internet, in my opinion is it's 221 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:14.480 incredibly useful in so many ways and also incredibly detrimental. 222 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:21.320 Yeah, yeah, I agree. Well, you know that's so. I 223 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:25.320 think it's fifteen years ago or so. I was teaching 224 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:30.960 a ergonomics class that you be, and fully half of 225 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:38.279 my class took their research project, which was to redesign 226 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:41.159 something in an ergonomic way. They had to do four 227 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:44.799 different things. They took them from the web, and the 228 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:47.480 dumbest part, I mean, if you're gonna cheat, be a 229 00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:50.879 little bit smart about this. Most of them took it 230 00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:54.440 from a website I shared with them to give them 231 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:55.679 examples of how to do it. 232 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:00.759 You would think that I graduate students would be a 233 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:02.039 little more savvy than that. 234 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:06.200 Yeah, but I actually just recently read an interesting implementation 235 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:12.480 in AI and education, which was to tell the students 236 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:20.039 to have an AI write the assignment and then verify 237 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:21.960 what the AI said. 238 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:25.440 No, that's it. I like that idea because then it 239 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:29.240 helps them see It was useful in one way, but 240 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:32.919 it also created some other problems over here or when 241 00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:35.519 the teacher gets basically the same paper like from five 242 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:38.879 different students. You know, then you start to go, oh, 243 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:41.480 you either all worked on this together or you all 244 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:44.519 talk to the same AI person and they wrote it 245 00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:44.879 for you. 246 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:47.480 Well, I think part of it is getting them to 247 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:52.799 figure out that the AI is hallucinating or that it's 248 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:57.759 not using we'll say, well verified sources to begin with. 249 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.960 It might not be hallucinating, but it's it's chosen sources 250 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:05.200 that it shouldn't trust. And in fact, that idea of 251 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:09.399 looking at sources that shouldn't trust is what actually prompted 252 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:13.039 the whole idea about the paper we wrote because I 253 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:15.679 I asked AI a question that I knew the answer to, 254 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:20.480 posted it to a Facebook group for chiropractors and the 255 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:22.679 answer I came up with was inconsistent with what the 256 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:26.120 best scientific evidence is at this point in time. And 257 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:31.399 one of the editors of British uh British medical journal 258 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:34.720 Sports Medicine was in the group and said, hey, we 259 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:37.240 should write a paper about AI. That's how that happened. 260 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:41.360 Yeah, well it's I mean, it's like the more advanced 261 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:44.600 version of Wikipedia when students were using that as they're 262 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:48.679 like your primary source. Now that that might that might 263 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.759 be a place to gather some information and move on, right, 264 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:56.200 you find some find some buzzwords, and and move on. 265 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:00.840 So tell me a little bit more about your educational 266 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:04.680 experiences or maybe just life in general. Is there anyone 267 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:07.519 who you would say was kind of your champion, your 268 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:13.079 cheerleader while you were working through some of the process 269 00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:16.119 that you went through to figure out how you operate best. 270 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:20.440 In the world. Me, it was, and you know, literally 271 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:24.839 after after that middle school class, and I should say 272 00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:28.400 in that class, you know, well say I'm pretty high functioning. 273 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:31.400 There were people in that class in eighth grade and 274 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:35.079 in ninth grade who were incapable of actually reading, and 275 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:38.519 you had to have a certain minimum IQ score to 276 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:40.200 get into this, so that you know that that was 277 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:43.000 their their check to make sure this was not an 278 00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:46.880 intelligence issue. After that, you know, I don't think any 279 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:50.440 of that information transferred to because I didn't go to 280 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:54.200 high school in Wellesley. We moved to Northern Jersey. I 281 00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:56.720 don't know whether that went with my records or whether 282 00:17:56.759 --> 00:18:02.160 they cared at all. I mean, I remember my freshman 283 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:09.519 year in math, the the teacher gave me a B 284 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:13.200 in the first quarter even though I scored one hundred 285 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:16.160 on every test because you didn't do the homework. I 286 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:20.000 didn't do any of the homework ever, and I mean 287 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:24.200 it was just too easy. And she, for whatever reason 288 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:27.519 left after the first quarter, and the guy who replaced 289 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:29.880 her was like, you get a hundred, I don't care 290 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:35.279 whether you do the homework or not. Palm. That was 291 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:36.720 me having to deal with it myself. 292 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:40.279 Yeah, that's a that's a common teacher thing where they 293 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:43.960 just really insist that homework is so valuable and it 294 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:46.720 is depending on what kids to do, but sometimes you 295 00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:49.799 ask them to do stuff that has no value, and 296 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:51.960 then you get caught in that cycle of if you 297 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:55.240 don't bring your homework in, I'm lowering your grade even 298 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:56.720 though you understand the material. 299 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:00.599 And then harder homework, well that would be true too, 300 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:05.720 And so you know, through high school, you know, it 301 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:09.599 was I'm going to skate. To a large degree, it 302 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:11.960 was all a non issue for me from that point on. 303 00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:15.279 You know, it was an issue, but I just worked 304 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:19.039 my way around it. And so you know, nobody helped 305 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:21.279 me doing any of it at any point in time. 306 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:25.680 So you know, I think maybe perhaps a couple of 307 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:28.400 things happened as you moved from Massachusetts to New Jersey. 308 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:32.000 Sometimes school districts don't want to know that you were 309 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:35.640 getting special education services because they need to pay for those, 310 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:38.480 although you were kind of on the cusp of that 311 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:44.240 legal action. And other times I think records get lost 312 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:48.559 or don't get passed along as efficiently as they need to. 313 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:51.880 And then maybe even by the time somebody figured out that, 314 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:55.480 you know, your paperwork showed up six months later, it 315 00:19:55.519 --> 00:20:01.640 became on it was unnecessary, you know. I guess there's 316 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:04.519 a piece of me though that's a little bit saddened 317 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.559 by the fact that there wasn't anybody who was sort 318 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.559 of cheering you on or champion you in any way. 319 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:14.599 Was there anyone as you got further along in your 320 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:20.400 education or was college and chiropractic school somewhat similar in 321 00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:23.119 that regard is that you just figured stuff out for yourself. 322 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:25.480 I just figured that stuff out for myself. I mean, 323 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:30.039 you know, I went to I went from high school 324 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:35.559 to Rental or Polytechnic Institute, and I'll say at RPI 325 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:40.519 did not do that well, did actually pretty poorly, And 326 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:43.279 it sort of was the easier the class, the worst 327 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:47.880 the grade, and then a whole bunch of different things 328 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:51.279 happened in my last semester. When my grades came, I 329 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:54.599 was really thinking I was going to do. The best 330 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:58.079 i'd done that year was a three to five and 331 00:20:58.119 --> 00:21:04.799 I got a zero point nine. I mean, I had 332 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:06.920 a ninety eight average going into one final. I got 333 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:08.559 a D in that class. I had a ninety two 334 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:10.920 average going into a final of another course. I got 335 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:14.519 a D. In that course. I was doing a self 336 00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.960 pace research project, and I thought I did not you know, 337 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:20.519 you know, students don't know what the hell's going on 338 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:23.319 in academia. And I thought, well, I'm working really hard. 339 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:25.680 I'm working with my advisor, but we didn't produce anything yet, 340 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:27.279 so I got it incomplete. I thought I was going 341 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:29.000 to get an A because of what I was doing. 342 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:34.559 And I have to say that that was one of 343 00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:37.240 the best semesters in college I ever had. And not 344 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:40.039 that I was, you know, on drugs all the time 345 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:43.000 and having fun. It's not to say it wasn't either, 346 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:47.799 but I'd learned more in that semester through the semester, 347 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:50.119 during the semester than I learned in any other semester 348 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:52.240 ever in college. I think until I got into grad 349 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:55.160 school and the other thing was. From a personal standpoint, 350 00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:58.160 it taught me that failure isn't the worst thing in life. 351 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:00.279 You know. In the end, my parents still of me, 352 00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:05.480 life still went on. I had already transferred to Sunni Buffalo, 353 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:09.039 so the you know, the grades were irrelevant. I'd already 354 00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:12.640 gotten into suiting Buffalo. And but in Buffalo, I thought, 355 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:14.599 you know, the change, change the major and change of 356 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:17.240 things would change things. And in fact, once again, if 357 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.440 the class was easy, I did poor in the class. 358 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.640 And I didn't really fix myself from a standpoint of 359 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:26.079 as how do I study and how do I do that? 360 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:29.480 Until I got into Chiropractic College, and you know, and 361 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:32.359 and there I finally felt like a fish in water. 362 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:35.839 From an educational standpoint, well, I. 363 00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:39.400 Would suspect too. By the time you get to a 364 00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:44.640 graduate degree, you've narrowed the focus down to something that 365 00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:48.759 you know that you're very interested in. Yeah, And I 366 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:51.680 mean the good news bad news about undergraduate programs is 367 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:54.720 they ask you to take a variety of courses because 368 00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:56.920 sometimes you don't really know what you're going to do, 369 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.319 or they're thinking that we're creating well rounded citizen sense, 370 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:03.240 which we may or may not be doing. So then 371 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:07.119 you know, here you are and you know English literature 372 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:10.680 or whatever, and you don't necessarily like it, but you 373 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:13.480 really like you know, I don't know a math class 374 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:16.960 or a science class or a psychology class, but you 375 00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:19.200 have to take you know, you have to sort of 376 00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:23.680 things off the whole buffet and not order just the 377 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:27.519 stuff you want off the menu, which I think is 378 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:30.519 is good and bad. You know. I think it helps 379 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.000 students figure out maybe where they want to be or 380 00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:36.079 what they want to do, especially if they have no idea. 381 00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:39.920 And other times I think we're wasting people's time because 382 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:42.000 they already know where they're going and we should probably 383 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:42.559 just get there. 384 00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:45.319 Yeah, and then and then I'd say, you know, when 385 00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:49.960 I was practicing, I did a lot of volunteer work, 386 00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:54.519 both in my profession and profession related but not in 387 00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:57.039 the profession. I was involved in track and field in 388 00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:01.279 New York, and I was involved in say professional organizations 389 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:04.799 within sports medicine, and both of those were like tremendously demanding, 390 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:09.279 lots of things that go on. And my wife is 391 00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:11.920 a list writer. The list don't work for me because 392 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:13.559 I don't get everything off the list, and then I 393 00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:16.559 have to rewrite the list. And I got the I 394 00:24:16.599 --> 00:24:21.920 got a very early software that handled up keeping checklists 395 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:25.720 of things and and that worked for my brain. And 396 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:29.240 you know, and then from that one, I got a 397 00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:34.880 Palm Pilot and then you know, work my way to 398 00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:37.079 you know, I still use one piece of software called 399 00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:41.480 Omnifocus to manage tasks. But you know, my colleagues in 400 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:44.440 both of those organizations were always amazed by you know, 401 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:46.279