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<v Speaker 1>What's up everyone, and welcome back to the program. In

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<v Speaker 1>this episode, we're going to head back out to Moscow

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<v Speaker 1>and we're going to pick up where we left off

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<v Speaker 1>with the IgG transcript hearing, and once again we have

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<v Speaker 1>Leah Larkin doing the answering and the questions are being

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<v Speaker 1>asked by Ann Taylor. Question, all right, let's talk about

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<v Speaker 1>this case. Were you brought on to help us.

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<v Speaker 2>In this case? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, I was brought on to help you interpret and

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<v Speaker 1>understand what was done in terms of the genetic genealogy

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<v Speaker 1>for this case. Question what did you look at to

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<v Speaker 1>do that? Answer? Well, it's been a bit of a

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<v Speaker 1>struggle getting all of the material I would like to

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<v Speaker 1>look at. So I have seen basically photos of a

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<v Speaker 1>giant kind of posters scroll of a family tree that

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<v Speaker 1>I believe the FBI built at ancestry dot com. I've

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<v Speaker 1>seen pictures of whiteboard in which they have which they

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<v Speaker 1>sort of like hand wrote on the whiteboard a descendant tree,

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<v Speaker 1>so basically looking at some ancestors and mapping out the

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<v Speaker 1>descendant lines leading to certain DNA matches. I've seen communication

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<v Speaker 1>between In some cases, I can see who the recipients are.

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<v Speaker 1>In some I can't, but I've seen a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>email communications about the case. Do you want me to

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<v Speaker 1>go on question No, In the course of your work,

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<v Speaker 1>you try to help us understand what happened here. Did

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<v Speaker 1>you learn that first Authrum worked on the case and

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<v Speaker 1>then the FBI took it over.

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<v Speaker 2>Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, so, Authorum, I believe they were contracted, based on

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<v Speaker 1>the invoice I've seen, they were contracted to do the

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<v Speaker 1>lab work, so to actually generate an SMP profile, upload

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<v Speaker 1>it to gd match pro and family Tree DNA presumably

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<v Speaker 1>through the approved portals, and then I believe they were

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<v Speaker 1>contracted to do the genetic genealogy. But they were told

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<v Speaker 1>to stop work. I believe on December tenth, and I've

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<v Speaker 1>seen the preliminary report. They wrote question, all right, have

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<v Speaker 1>you had a chance to look at what happened after

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<v Speaker 1>December tenth?

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<v Speaker 2>Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>So after December tenth there were some email communications between

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<v Speaker 1>The one I think was the most interesting to me

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<v Speaker 1>had the names redacted and it contained screenshots. So, just

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<v Speaker 1>to backtrack a little bit, the Authoram report reported two

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<v Speaker 1>main DNA matches, one of them shared seventy point seven

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<v Speaker 1>sent the morgans of DNA. The court reporter I'm sorry,

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<v Speaker 1>seven point seventy. The witness seventy point seven sent the morgans,

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<v Speaker 1>do you know how to spell that? Ce NTI m

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<v Speaker 1>r GA N and we just abbreviated CM the other

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<v Speaker 1>I think it was sixty and Authoram's report specifically said

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<v Speaker 1>those are low matches. Authoram figured out how those people

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<v Speaker 1>were related to one another. I believe they were third

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<v Speaker 1>cousins to one another, and based on how much DNA

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<v Speaker 1>they shared with the crime scene profile, they thought that

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<v Speaker 1>the individual who contributed the crime scene profile was descended

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<v Speaker 1>from the second great grandparent of those two matches, a

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<v Speaker 1>man name redacted and his wife redacted. I believe their name,

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<v Speaker 1>and they were born in the redacted. Question when Authroam

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<v Speaker 1>quit work, were they following a family tree that they

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<v Speaker 1>could have led to come to Brian Colberger answer, yes, so,

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<v Speaker 1>based on my initial review of what they did, the

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<v Speaker 1>crime scene profile was most likely descended from redacted and redacted,

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<v Speaker 1>or perhaps one of their siblings. It's hard to tell

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<v Speaker 1>with DNA because it's not not all third cousins share

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<v Speaker 1>exactly the same amount of DNA. Some share more, some

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<v Speaker 1>share less. It's just kind of a statistics game.

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<v Speaker 2>You play.

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<v Speaker 1>The couple had redacted children, and so there as conceivably

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<v Speaker 1>could have been hundreds of descendants of this couple. I

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<v Speaker 1>haven't seen the full tree. I've just seen that there

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<v Speaker 1>redacted children. Authorm chose one of those children and had

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<v Speaker 1>tracked down I believe grandchildren, and there were four brothers.

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<v Speaker 1>They recommended testing one of the brothers to get more

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<v Speaker 1>DNA to get a closer handle on where their crime

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<v Speaker 1>scene profile might fit into the family question. So, when

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<v Speaker 1>Authrum stops there and the FBI takes over, you told

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<v Speaker 1>us you saw something from ancestry dot com. Would you

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<v Speaker 1>have expected to see any other kind of file with

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<v Speaker 1>that file?

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<v Speaker 2>Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>So this was basically like a giant poster sized printout

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<v Speaker 1>of information from that family tree. A family tree, when

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<v Speaker 1>you build one at ancestry, is stored in a specific

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<v Speaker 1>kind of data format, or more precisely, you can download

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<v Speaker 1>the file in a specific type of data format called

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<v Speaker 1>a getcom and it's a universal file format for genealogy trees.

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<v Speaker 1>So you could take a getcom file and you could

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<v Speaker 1>open it up in a standalone software on your laptop.

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<v Speaker 1>You could upload it to a different genealogy company. I

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<v Speaker 1>have jetcom file for every single client case that I do.

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<v Speaker 1>When I'm finished with an adoptee case, I basically give

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<v Speaker 1>my client the getcom file, so they have a record

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<v Speaker 1>of all the work that I did, and I would

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<v Speaker 1>have expected the FBI to have that as well, but

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<v Speaker 1>they did not turn that over. Question you didn't see

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<v Speaker 1>one of those? Answer? I did not see one of those,

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<v Speaker 1>No question, knowing that Authrum finished their work on December tenth,

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<v Speaker 1>and then the FBI took over, and we've heard that

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<v Speaker 1>by decemb nineteenth, nine days later, they made an identification.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that significant to you?

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<v Speaker 2>Answer? Yeah? Question?

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<v Speaker 1>Why answer? Because Othrom's matches were, as in their own

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<v Speaker 1>words and their report, those matches were low. They were

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<v Speaker 1>recommending testing these four redacted brothers to get more information.

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<v Speaker 1>If you went out and you approached those men, and

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<v Speaker 1>even if one of them said yes, you can test

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<v Speaker 1>my DNA, the testing itself would have taken some time,

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<v Speaker 1>getting a kit to a person, getting the spit, sending

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<v Speaker 1>it into the lab, having it analyzed, and it wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>have led to the crime scene profile because it was

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<v Speaker 1>the wrong family branch. So going from low matches to

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<v Speaker 1>an ID or at least a tip whatever they were

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<v Speaker 1>calling it within nine days, That right there told me

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<v Speaker 1>they had gone into a database they were not supposed

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<v Speaker 1>to be in question. Were there other ways that you

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<v Speaker 1>were able to confirm your beliefs?

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<v Speaker 2>Question?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, answer? What was that answer? So one of them

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<v Speaker 1>in one of those email communications, I believe this is

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<v Speaker 1>the one that had both the and recipient redacted. There

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<v Speaker 1>were screenshots from ged match, and I believe it said

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<v Speaker 1>so there were screenshots, how do I pull this in

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<v Speaker 1>ged match? Gd match has a very open system. So

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<v Speaker 1>if you were in gdgd match and I am in

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<v Speaker 1>ged match, and let's say where we were cousins, I

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<v Speaker 1>could go in and look at my kit and I

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<v Speaker 1>would see you in my match list, but I could

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<v Speaker 1>also go into your kit and see me in your

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<v Speaker 1>match list. Ged match is just a super open database

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<v Speaker 1>in that way. Any kit the system has is that

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<v Speaker 1>as public you can search the matches. The one exception, however,

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<v Speaker 1>is that if there are forensic kits in the database

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<v Speaker 1>and I am a layperson and I'm looking at a

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<v Speaker 1>layperson kit, I can't see the forensic kits. They're invisible

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<v Speaker 1>to me. But there is an email communication that has

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<v Speaker 1>a match list from the perspective of somebody who only

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<v Speaker 1>used the initials SC. I have no idea what this

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<v Speaker 1>person's real name is in the database, they are called SC.

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<v Speaker 1>This screenshot is taken from the perspective of AS and

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<v Speaker 1>there is no match to the forensic profile from SE's perspective.

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<v Speaker 1>That tells me that the forensic profile was uploaded through

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<v Speaker 1>the regular ged match portal and not the gd match

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<v Speaker 1>Pro forensic portal because it should not have been visible

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<v Speaker 1>to SC. And the email says this one's ours. And

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<v Speaker 1>the other thing is that ged match will also tell

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<v Speaker 1>you how many days a kit has been in their system,

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<v Speaker 1>and for that kit, for that match to the SC,

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<v Speaker 1>it had been in the database for one day, but

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<v Speaker 1>AUTHORAM had uploaded it. I'm not sure exactly when, but

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<v Speaker 1>I would say six to seven to eight days prior,

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<v Speaker 1>so it should not have said the kit was only

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<v Speaker 1>one day old.

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<v Speaker 2>Question.

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<v Speaker 1>So, based on that email and what you saw, it

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<v Speaker 1>confirmed your belief that the FBI used a non allowed

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<v Speaker 1>answer right, So that one. There was several lines of evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>That was one of them that stood out to me

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<v Speaker 1>early on that they had uploaded through the layperson portal

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<v Speaker 1>of ged match so that they could see all the

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<v Speaker 1>people that were opted out.

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<v Speaker 2>There were a couple of other matches.

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<v Speaker 1>One of them was actually two hundred and fifty center Morgans,

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<v Speaker 1>which is something we got excited about in genealogy, and

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<v Speaker 1>one of them I think was closer to seventy that

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<v Speaker 1>were not in the authoram report. If AUTHORM had seen

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<v Speaker 1>the one who shared two hundred and fifty cent a Morgans,

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<v Speaker 1>that would have been in their report. Like their genealogists

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<v Speaker 1>are good, they know what they're doing, they would not

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<v Speaker 1>have ignored a two hundred and fifty cent a Morgan match.

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<v Speaker 1>And based on those other two matches, at that point,

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<v Speaker 1>I was pretty sure they had gone into my heritage database.

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<v Speaker 1>Question while you were reviewing this information so you could

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<v Speaker 1>learn and try and figure out what happened here, did

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<v Speaker 1>you have any ability to call anybody from the FBI

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<v Speaker 1>and say, hey, what's going on?

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<v Speaker 2>Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know who did the genealogy work at the FBI.

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<v Speaker 1>Question why is that answer it's not in the information

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<v Speaker 1>we received. Question is that part that was redacted?

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<v Speaker 2>Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if it was redacted or if we

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<v Speaker 1>just never got it. So there was one email that

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<v Speaker 1>was redacted, A dacted sender and our adacted recipient. Presumably

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<v Speaker 1>those were the people doing the genealogy work. But other

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<v Speaker 1>than that, I have no idea who did the genealogy

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<v Speaker 1>work at the FBI question and there are other ways,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the FBI went where they were not supposed

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<v Speaker 1>to go. Answer. There was one piece of information in

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<v Speaker 1>the discovery material that I did review. I believe we

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<v Speaker 1>asked them to turn over the match list and they

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<v Speaker 1>were like, oh, we can't turn over the whole match

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<v Speaker 1>list because it was twenty thousand people. And that actually,

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<v Speaker 1>right there was a big tip off because if they

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<v Speaker 1>had only used gd match Pro and only use Family

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<v Speaker 1>Tree DNA, I think at most they could have gotten

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<v Speaker 1>to about ten thousand. So that right there tipped me

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<v Speaker 1>off that there were in a database that they should

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<v Speaker 1>not have been able to be in question during the

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<v Speaker 1>course of our work to try and understand what happened here,

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<v Speaker 1>did you assist us with reviewing documentation and teaching us

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<v Speaker 1>what else should have been there that we needed to

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<v Speaker 1>ask for? Answer what specifically question well about the databases

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<v Speaker 1>they went into and the match list and answer right. So,

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<v Speaker 1>we've talked about what you see in a match list.

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<v Speaker 1>We've talked about the fact that you can download the

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<v Speaker 1>match list at family Tree DNA. There is just a

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<v Speaker 1>click button to download it and you'll get a CSV

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<v Speaker 1>file which you can open in a word processor or

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<v Speaker 1>you can open in a spreadsheet program. At ged match,

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<v Speaker 1>you can also get the whole match list, so you

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<v Speaker 1>would have gotten that. I tend to do that for

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<v Speaker 1>my clients, just so if I'm not online, I can

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<v Speaker 1>still work through their materials and I can report that

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<v Speaker 1>back to them. Question and did you testify an emotion

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<v Speaker 1>to compel hearing to try to get this information so

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<v Speaker 1>we could tell and confirm that you believed about the

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<v Speaker 1>FBI going into a non allowed database. Answer yes, question

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<v Speaker 1>and do you know if sometime after that we received

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<v Speaker 1>confirmation that they did answer. We did finally get a

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<v Speaker 1>letter from the FBI in which so we specifically asked

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<v Speaker 1>to know which of the matches were in which of

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<v Speaker 1>the databases, and they did not tell us that, but

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<v Speaker 1>they did give us a list of the databases they

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<v Speaker 1>had uploaded to, and it included family Tree, DNA, ged

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<v Speaker 1>match Pro, and there are the two databases they're allowed

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<v Speaker 1>to use, but it also listed gd match, not ged

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<v Speaker 1>match Pro, but gd match they're not allowed to go

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<v Speaker 1>into the regular gd match portal. And then finally they

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<v Speaker 1>admitted they had uploaded to my heritage. Miss Taylor, your honor,

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<v Speaker 1>I am at D twenty six, and I could pass

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<v Speaker 1>this copy to the court, I would ask that it'd

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<v Speaker 1>be shown to the witness first, the court, what's the

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<v Speaker 1>red number on it, Miss Taylor, your honor? The red

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<v Speaker 1>number is nine to nine to nine the court notice

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<v Speaker 1>of an in camera submission, Miss Taylor. Yes, Court, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>go ahead, Miss Taylor. Doctor Larkin, will you thumb through that.

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<v Speaker 1>It's towards the back answer?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay? Question do you recognize that? Answer? Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>The second to last page, it says, below are the

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<v Speaker 1>genealogy services utilized by the FBI. Question and what does

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<v Speaker 1>it tell you? Answer? It says family tree, DNA, ged match,

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<v Speaker 1>pro ged match, and my heritage.

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<v Speaker 2>Question.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Miss Taylor, Was your honor like the copy

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<v Speaker 1>they have there? I think it's part of the record

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<v Speaker 1>you submitted, So I have a copy, Miss Taylor. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you. Give me just one more minute to check

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<v Speaker 1>with my team. I do have another question the court,

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<v Speaker 1>all right, go ahead, Miss Taylor. Question what is Prometheus?

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<v Speaker 1>Prometheus is a third party site. So it's not part

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<v Speaker 1>of ancestry, not part of my heritage. Actually my heritage

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<v Speaker 1>owns it. It's a site where you can take the

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<v Speaker 1>SNP profile that you get from any of the companies

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<v Speaker 1>and upload it to the site and it will produce

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<v Speaker 1>It will basically look for medically informative SNPs in your

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<v Speaker 1>profile that will do reports on them. I think it's like,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, it's like a nominal fee, like twelve

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<v Speaker 1>dollars or something, and it will do a report of

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<v Speaker 1>all of the SNPs that you have in your profile.

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<v Speaker 1>Question if you had my SNP you could do that

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<v Speaker 1>and find out answer, Yes, I could do it on

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<v Speaker 1>if somebody has done a genealogy test.

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<v Speaker 2>For twelve dollars, I can.

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<v Speaker 1>Put it into the Prometheus system and get trade reports

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<v Speaker 1>and health reports.

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<v Speaker 2>Question.

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<v Speaker 1>How extensive is that information that you could get? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>It's pretty comprehensive. I mean you will get reams and

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<v Speaker 1>reams of reports. I should say that some how do

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<v Speaker 1>I put this? There are lots of traits that are

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<v Speaker 1>controlled by multiple genes, and so if a trade is

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<v Speaker 1>controlled by multiple genes, I can't say for certain, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to get Alzheimer's. No, you're not going to

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<v Speaker 1>get Alzheimer's. It's more of a risk factor. But you

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<v Speaker 1>can look at the multiple reports and see if they're,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, giving you an increased risk of Alzheimer's or

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<v Speaker 1>whatever other traits are in the system, if you have

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<v Speaker 1>an increased risk of breast cancer, prostate cancer, or anything

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<v Speaker 1>else out there. Question for twelve dollars. Answer yes, question,

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you. That's all my questions. Hold on a minute,

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<v Speaker 1>the prosecutor might have one for you. All Right, we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to wrap up right here, and in the next

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<v Speaker 1>episode we'll finish this bad boy off. If you'd like

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<v Speaker 1>to contact me, you can do that at Bobby Kopuchi

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<v Speaker 1>at proton mail dot com. That's b O B B

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<v Speaker 1>Y c A p U C C I at proton

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<v Speaker 1>mail dot com. Or if you prefer, you can find

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<v Speaker 1>me on x at B O B B Y on

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<v Speaker 1>your score C A p U C C I. All

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<v Speaker 1>of the links that go with this episode can be

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<v Speaker 1>found in the description box.