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Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the

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Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up

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where we left off with the Michael Thomas deposition with

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the OIG inspectors. Question, all right, so when did you

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see Epstein? This is where we're going to have to

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get into a little more detail. Thomas, sure, question, what

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did you see? Thomas? He was hanging by a sheet?

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Question so what was he hanging from Thomas's bed? Question

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from his bed? Thomas? Yes? Question did you see the picture? Mitchell?

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He needs a break? Question you want to take a break? Thomas, Yeah,

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I got another ten minutes here, I've got to go.

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Question all right Thomas. The hour and a half is

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up for the thing. Question so we have ten minutes Thomas, yeah, question,

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all right, ten minutes and then we'll take another little break.

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We're getting close, but so this can help us with

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this when we were talking about the sho you and

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just so can we get these maps out of there?

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Do you mind just initiate initialing and dating this? Thank

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you sir. All right, So here's some pictures I want

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to show you. Is this was Epstein on Eltier? Thomas? Yeah,

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see this is exactly what I'm saying, like this is

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down from M tier, but yeah, he's on el tier.

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Question Okay, where was his cell? Thomas? It would be

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back here? Question back on this side, Thomas. Yeah. Question

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all right? What am I looking at here? Are you

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able to tell Thomas? I couldn't tell you what tear

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it is? But it's just the hallway and that's the

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food cart. Question Okay, do you mind just initialing and

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dating that? Is this the door that you walked up

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to when you saw Thomas? If you say it is, okay?

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Question all right, so you can't even actually see that

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because it's crossed with this crime scene Thomas, Uh huh.

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Question do you have any reason to believe that wouldn't

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be the door that you went into where Epstein was discovered? Thomas,

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I have no reason to believe it. Question Okay, when

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you walked in, does this look like it was the

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same type of cell? Because all I'm going to ask

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is where he was hanging Thomas, he was hanging over

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here to the side. Question Okay, so is this a picture?

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Thomas cuts them off. Yeah, because if you put them

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together like the bunk, it's over to this side. Question

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all right, So is he hanging from something in there? Thomas? Yeah, hanging.

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It was tied up right here, and then it ripped

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it down and I put him on the ground. Question,

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so was this what he was tied to? Thomas? It

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wasn't just that little thing. It was more stringed and

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then that I ripped it down. Question all right, Thomas,

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maybe it's down there or something like that, like I

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see string and stuff right here. Question do you just

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mind like marking where it was, where the noose or

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whatever the rope was tied just for clarity what it

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was attached to? Thomas. It was attached to the bunk.

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It's attached to the bunk. Question is this it here though? Thomas? Yeah,

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it's attached to the bunk, to this general area right here.

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Question so just circle that general area Thomas, yeah. Question

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all right, you mind just initialing and dating that? All right? Thomas?

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Am I doing the same with this one? Question? No,

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Well you can if you want. I mean, you looked

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at it, and do you believe so? Did you take

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down this and somebody put it back up? Thomas? No.

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It was attached to them, and it wasn't just that

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singular piece. It might have more rope to it. Question

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All right, there was more rope to it. Thomas, yeah. Question,

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but this is what what was hanging? He was hanging.

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I don't know if that's a sheet or a shirt

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or whatever the case may be. But yeah, Thomas, he

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was hanging from over there. Question from this area? Thomas, yes.

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Question all right, you mind just initialing and dating that.

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So when you went in you found him, he was

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still hanging Thomas, yes. Question. And what did you do? Thomas?

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I ripped him down and I yelled for help and

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I started CPR. Question, So how did you rip him down? Thomas? Yeah,

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I just ripped the sheet down. Question. You ripped the

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sheet first, Thomas, Yeah. Question. And then did you like

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pick him up or did you throw him on the

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floor Thomas yeah? Or did he fall on the floor?

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Thomas kind of just like got him to the floor.

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I ripped it off like that, and then he dropped,

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of course, and then I laid him onto the ground. Question. Okay,

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so he dropped fall Thomas, Well, it wasn't as you

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could see. It's not that far if you can see

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by the thing like that. Where's the picture? Question right here?

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Can I have the picture back? Thomas? Oh the ground

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right there. Question? Sure, Thomas, Like, if you take he's

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maybe like plopped two he was maybe about an inch

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and a half or maybe an inch off the ground. Question.

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So Thomas like he was lower he gets cut off.

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So after you rip this thing, did he just fall first?

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Thomas just dropped down. Yeah. Question, he just dropped down Thomas,

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uh huh. Question, and then you moved him? So all right, Thomas,

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I didn't move him. Question. So you rip the sheet,

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he falls to the floor, and then you move him

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where you could start CPR. Thomas, Yeah, so I could

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lay him down and start CPR. Question all right. Do

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you remember if his like, if anything of his body

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hit anywhere? Thomas, I don't remember. Question when he fell Thomas, No,

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I don't remember his body hitting anywhere. Question. The reason

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why we're asking is, like with the autopsy, we've got

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to make sure of that. Thomas. Yeah. Yeah, just like

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a drop down. All right, So he dropped basically. Do

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you remember if he landed on his butt Thomas, Yeah,

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on his butt. Yeah, he landed on his butt here.

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Question he landed on his butt Thomas, yeah, question, but

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his head remained upright Thomas, Nah, I'm sure he gets

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cut off. I don't mean upright, like looking at you,

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but I mean like his body remained upright. Thomas. I

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would guess he was just limped over. I would say,

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just limped over. Question, okay, Thomas and I just he

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gets cut off and then you physically moved him Thomas

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to the floor. Yes, question all right. Do you remember if,

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like anything hit harder than another when you moved him? Thomas,

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I don't really, he gets cut off to the floor, Thomas.

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I don't remember other than that question. Yeah, no worries.

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All right, So he was still hanging. That was the

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position that you found him in. You ripped him off,

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he fell to the ground. You then moved him to

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the ground. What was he wearing at the time? Do

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you remember, Thomas pants? Question? Was he naked or anything

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like that? Or he still had his clothes on? Thomas,

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He wasn't naked. He wasn't naked. I'm going to say,

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I want to say he had a jumper on. He

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had his jumper how they it's not all the way

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up to the top right here, but it's like around

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the waist, So maybe he had pants on. I do

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remember he wasn't totally naked. Question okay, Thomas. And he

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wasn't in his boxer shorts or anything like that, but

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he was he had no shirt on. He didn't have

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a shirt on. Question, he didn't have a shirt on?

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All right? You said this was still around his neck

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when he fell off. Did that come away from his neck? Thomas? Yeah,

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he didn't have anything around his neck when he came up. Yeah.

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Question okay, And what was it that was around his neck?

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Question or answer? I mean, Thomas, it was either a

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sheet or a shirt. I don't know which one. It

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is a sheet or a shirt. I didn't really pay

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attention to it. Question. Now are the sheets and the

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shirts both orange? Thomas? Yes? Question okay, so it wasn't

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You weren't able to tell if it was Thomas cuts

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him off. I couldn't tell you if it was a

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sheet or a shirt. No, I didn't. Question, okay, Thomas.

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I didn't look to see what it was. Now, what

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did he look like? Thomas white male? I don't know.

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Question was he like completely purple? Thomas? No, absolutely not.

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He was just he looked like he'd been hanging, like

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he just hung himself. It wasn't like he was red

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or blue. Or his lips like a different color. It

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wasn't any of that stuff. Question, it looked like it

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happened just recently. Thomas. I mean, I'm not a doctor

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to tell you if I'm a doctor, I just he

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didn't look I don't say he looked any different. I mean,

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he just like he just hung himself. It wasn't no

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discoloration of anything like that. If that's what you're trying

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to get. And it's like like he just hung himself.

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Question all right, so you don't he didn't look at

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that much different than when he looked when he was alive. Thomas, Yeah,

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I didn't look question he looked pretty much the same Thomas. Yeah.

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Question okay. And you said, or did you notice anything

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unusual in his cell when you went in? Thomas No,

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I didn't. Question. No, And you said that you started

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CPR Thomas, yeah. Question what did you do? Thomas? I

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started chess compressions. Question just chest compressions. Thomas, Yeah, just

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chest compressions. Question any kind of like mouth to mouth

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Thomas No, I didn't do any mouth to mouth. I

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was doing chess compressions. It took maybe about it wasn't

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that long before they came with the thing, and they

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started doing all the other stuff. I can't remember the

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medic's name, the guy, I can't remember his name. Question

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all right, did he stay all kinds Was it all

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kinds of right there next to the bed? Thomas, Yeah,

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it was right there. Question did you have to move

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them out at all? Thomas? No, because they did. They

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was doing the AED and everything right there inside the cell.

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Question so right in the corner of that bunk, Thomas,

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it's not in the corner. It can stretch out like

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you know. He gets interrupted. No, No, I'm saying for you.

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When you're doing your chest compressions, Thomas. No, when I'm

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doing my chest compressions, he's laying out right here a

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few feet maybe all right here, but he's laying about

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right here like about this way. Question okay Thomas without

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the wall, of course. Question but so he was on

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the floor, Thomas, he was on the floor. Question while

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you were doing the CPR, you didn't really have to

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move them that much, Thomas, I did not. Question after

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you like move them from the hanging position to the

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ground to the floor chess compressions immediately Thomas, yes. Question

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all right, did you do anything else Thomas, Uh. Other

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than the chess compressions question Thomas No. Soon thereafter, there

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was a whole bunch of staff there. Question about how

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long were you doing the chess compressions for Thomas. Maybe

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a minute or so. I don't I can't really recall.

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Question you don't remember, Thomas, It seemed like the blink

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of an eye before everybody was around me. Question did

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he seem like he was dead at the time? Thomas, No,

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he didn't. Question he actually seemed like he was alive. Thomas.

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I don't really want to say dead or alive, but

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I was doing chess compressions. I mean, I'm not a doctor,

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so anything like that. But I just know I just

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keep going. I don't know if he was dead or

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anything at the time. Question did you notice if he

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had like did you check for a pulse or anything

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like that? Thomas, the doctor was there. I know I

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was doing chess compressions. I didn't stop to check for

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a pulse. I let the medical staff do that because

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it was somebody from medical doing that. Question So how

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did you know to do chess compressions if you didn't,

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he gets cut off. I mean, I don't know if

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somebody looked like they're not breathing or anything like that.

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He's not talking. I'm yelling out his name, he's not responding. Question,

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So did you check for breath? Thomas? Yeah, I did

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a check for breath. Question, So to doing chest compressions,

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you check for breath? Thomas, Yeah, I check for breath. Question?

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And how did you do that? Thomas? I just when

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I would go like this, I was telling Epstein, like yo, Epstein, Epstein,

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he wasn't breathing. So that's my interpretation of checking. I'm yelling,

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he's not breathing, he's not calling to me, he's not

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saying anything. Question, So I guess what I'm asking Thomas.

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Did I put my hand over and check for a breath? Question? Yeah? Yeah, Thomas. No,

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I did not question? So you didn't like he gets

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cut off? No, I was yelling for his name and

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everything to see if he was like doing like anything

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that in there. I'm like Epstein Epstein, I'm pushing his

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upper torso. Question. All right, So you didn't feel for

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a pulse or check for a breath, Thomas, No, I

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didn't do all that stuff. No question, all right? But

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you believed he wasn't breathing. Question, I don't know if

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he was breathing or not. I know he was just hanging,

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so I was just trying to get him to start. Question.

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So you saw him hanging and just your natural reaction

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then was to Thomas absolutely. Question, So you don't actually

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know if he was breathing. Thomas, I don't know. Question.

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You don't know if he was breathing, so you don't

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know if he was a live or not. Thomas. I

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don't know if he was a live or not. No question, Okay,

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So just all right, so you didn't actually check for anything.

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You just went right to chess compressions. Thomas. Yeah, went

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to chess compressions and yelling. I wasn't getting no response. Question, Okay,

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did you like hit him or anything first? Thomas, No question,

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like trying to wake him up? Thomas. I just kept

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yelling his name, and I'm shaking him and doing chess compressions.

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That should be enough to wake somebody up for somebody

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to hey, hey like that. I didn't he gets cut off.

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Didn't they teach you CPR though, Thomas, Yeah, that's part

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of the art. Question did they teach you that prior

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to doing CPR? You're supposed to, like, check the c

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if they're alive first, Thomas, to CPR, the standard model

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is check for airways and everything like that. But in

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the course of the moment, I didn't slow down and say,

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let me see, I check for responsiveness. And that's exactly

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what I did. When I'm yelling your name, that's checking

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for a response. Question, right, Thomas, I wasn't getting any response.

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Question Okay. No. The only reason I'm going more into

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detail is because you said you aren't sure if he

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was alive or not. Thomas, Uh huh, I understand question. No,

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I'm just trying to figure out if there's more questions

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I need to ask with regard to that, Thomas, No problem.

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At any time when you were doing chess, compressions or

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any of that, did he ever open his eyes or

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seemed to take a breath, Thomas, Not that I recall.

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I don't remember, really, question okay, all right. Didn't No

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Weell ever enter the cell to assist you, Thomas, I

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don't remember. I remember seeing her. I don't know if

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she was in the cell. There were so many people

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in that cell in such a short period of time,

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so I really don't remember if she was one of

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the people or not. I can only remember actually two

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faces at this present time. One is the medical person

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I can't remember his name, and the other one is question,

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how do you spell redacted? Thomas redacted? Question? Okay, who

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is that Thomas? Officer? Question just an officer that came

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in response Thomas mm hmm. All right, folks, we're gonna

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wrap up right here, and in the next episode dealing

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with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off.

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All the information that goes with this episode can be

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found in the description box.