Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
where we left off with the Michael Thomas deposition with
the OIG inspectors. Question, all right, so when did you
see Epstein? This is where we're going to have to
get into a little more detail. Thomas, sure, question, what
did you see? Thomas? He was hanging by a sheet?
Question so what was he hanging from Thomas's bed? Question
from his bed? Thomas? Yes? Question did you see the picture? Mitchell?
He needs a break? Question you want to take a break? Thomas, Yeah,
I got another ten minutes here, I've got to go.
Question all right Thomas. The hour and a half is
up for the thing. Question so we have ten minutes Thomas, yeah, question,
all right, ten minutes and then we'll take another little break.
We're getting close, but so this can help us with
this when we were talking about the sho you and
just so can we get these maps out of there?
Do you mind just initiate initialing and dating this? Thank
you sir. All right, So here's some pictures I want
to show you. Is this was Epstein on Eltier? Thomas? Yeah,
see this is exactly what I'm saying, like this is
down from M tier, but yeah, he's on el tier.
Question Okay, where was his cell? Thomas? It would be
back here? Question back on this side, Thomas. Yeah. Question
all right? What am I looking at here? Are you
able to tell Thomas? I couldn't tell you what tear
it is? But it's just the hallway and that's the
food cart. Question Okay, do you mind just initialing and
dating that? Is this the door that you walked up
to when you saw Thomas? If you say it is, okay?
Question all right, so you can't even actually see that
because it's crossed with this crime scene Thomas, Uh huh.
Question do you have any reason to believe that wouldn't
be the door that you went into where Epstein was discovered? Thomas,
I have no reason to believe it. Question Okay, when
you walked in, does this look like it was the
same type of cell? Because all I'm going to ask
is where he was hanging Thomas, he was hanging over
here to the side. Question Okay, so is this a picture?
Thomas cuts them off. Yeah, because if you put them
together like the bunk, it's over to this side. Question
all right, So is he hanging from something in there? Thomas? Yeah, hanging.
It was tied up right here, and then it ripped
it down and I put him on the ground. Question,
so was this what he was tied to? Thomas? It
wasn't just that little thing. It was more stringed and
then that I ripped it down. Question all right, Thomas,
maybe it's down there or something like that, like I
see string and stuff right here. Question do you just
mind like marking where it was, where the noose or
whatever the rope was tied just for clarity what it
was attached to? Thomas. It was attached to the bunk.
It's attached to the bunk. Question is this it here though? Thomas? Yeah,
it's attached to the bunk, to this general area right here.
Question so just circle that general area Thomas, yeah. Question
all right, you mind just initialing and dating that? All right? Thomas?
Am I doing the same with this one? Question? No,
Well you can if you want. I mean, you looked
at it, and do you believe so? Did you take
down this and somebody put it back up? Thomas? No.
It was attached to them, and it wasn't just that
singular piece. It might have more rope to it. Question
All right, there was more rope to it. Thomas, yeah. Question,
but this is what what was hanging? He was hanging.
I don't know if that's a sheet or a shirt
or whatever the case may be. But yeah, Thomas, he
was hanging from over there. Question from this area? Thomas, yes.
Question all right, you mind just initialing and dating that.
So when you went in you found him, he was
still hanging Thomas, yes. Question. And what did you do? Thomas?
I ripped him down and I yelled for help and
I started CPR. Question, So how did you rip him down? Thomas? Yeah,
I just ripped the sheet down. Question. You ripped the
sheet first, Thomas, Yeah. Question. And then did you like
pick him up or did you throw him on the
floor Thomas yeah? Or did he fall on the floor?
Thomas kind of just like got him to the floor.
I ripped it off like that, and then he dropped,
of course, and then I laid him onto the ground. Question. Okay,
so he dropped fall Thomas, Well, it wasn't as you
could see. It's not that far if you can see
by the thing like that. Where's the picture? Question right here?
Can I have the picture back? Thomas? Oh the ground
right there. Question? Sure, Thomas, Like, if you take he's
maybe like plopped two he was maybe about an inch
and a half or maybe an inch off the ground. Question.
So Thomas like he was lower he gets cut off.
So after you rip this thing, did he just fall first?
Thomas just dropped down. Yeah. Question, he just dropped down Thomas,
uh huh. Question, and then you moved him? So all right, Thomas,
I didn't move him. Question. So you rip the sheet,
he falls to the floor, and then you move him
where you could start CPR. Thomas, Yeah, so I could
lay him down and start CPR. Question all right. Do
you remember if his like, if anything of his body
hit anywhere? Thomas, I don't remember. Question when he fell Thomas, No,
I don't remember his body hitting anywhere. Question. The reason
why we're asking is, like with the autopsy, we've got
to make sure of that. Thomas. Yeah. Yeah, just like
a drop down. All right, So he dropped basically. Do
you remember if he landed on his butt Thomas, Yeah,
on his butt. Yeah, he landed on his butt here.
Question he landed on his butt Thomas, yeah, question, but
his head remained upright Thomas, Nah, I'm sure he gets
cut off. I don't mean upright, like looking at you,
but I mean like his body remained upright. Thomas. I
would guess he was just limped over. I would say,
just limped over. Question, okay, Thomas and I just he
gets cut off and then you physically moved him Thomas
to the floor. Yes, question all right. Do you remember if,
like anything hit harder than another when you moved him? Thomas,
I don't really, he gets cut off to the floor, Thomas.
I don't remember other than that question. Yeah, no worries.
All right, So he was still hanging. That was the
position that you found him in. You ripped him off,
he fell to the ground. You then moved him to
the ground. What was he wearing at the time? Do
you remember, Thomas pants? Question? Was he naked or anything
like that? Or he still had his clothes on? Thomas,
He wasn't naked. He wasn't naked. I'm going to say,
I want to say he had a jumper on. He
had his jumper how they it's not all the way
up to the top right here, but it's like around
the waist, So maybe he had pants on. I do
remember he wasn't totally naked. Question okay, Thomas. And he
wasn't in his boxer shorts or anything like that, but
he was he had no shirt on. He didn't have
a shirt on. Question, he didn't have a shirt on?
All right? You said this was still around his neck
when he fell off. Did that come away from his neck? Thomas? Yeah,
he didn't have anything around his neck when he came up. Yeah.
Question okay, And what was it that was around his neck?
Question or answer? I mean, Thomas, it was either a
sheet or a shirt. I don't know which one. It
is a sheet or a shirt. I didn't really pay
attention to it. Question. Now are the sheets and the
shirts both orange? Thomas? Yes? Question okay, so it wasn't
You weren't able to tell if it was Thomas cuts
him off. I couldn't tell you if it was a
sheet or a shirt. No, I didn't. Question, okay, Thomas.
I didn't look to see what it was. Now, what
did he look like? Thomas white male? I don't know.
Question was he like completely purple? Thomas? No, absolutely not.
He was just he looked like he'd been hanging, like
he just hung himself. It wasn't like he was red
or blue. Or his lips like a different color. It
wasn't any of that stuff. Question, it looked like it
happened just recently. Thomas. I mean, I'm not a doctor
to tell you if I'm a doctor, I just he
didn't look I don't say he looked any different. I mean,
he just like he just hung himself. It wasn't no
discoloration of anything like that. If that's what you're trying
to get. And it's like like he just hung himself.
Question all right, so you don't he didn't look at
that much different than when he looked when he was alive. Thomas, Yeah,
I didn't look question he looked pretty much the same Thomas. Yeah.
Question okay. And you said, or did you notice anything
unusual in his cell when you went in? Thomas No,
I didn't. Question. No, And you said that you started
CPR Thomas, yeah. Question what did you do? Thomas? I
started chess compressions. Question just chest compressions. Thomas, Yeah, just
chest compressions. Question any kind of like mouth to mouth
Thomas No, I didn't do any mouth to mouth. I
was doing chess compressions. It took maybe about it wasn't
that long before they came with the thing, and they
started doing all the other stuff. I can't remember the
medic's name, the guy, I can't remember his name. Question
all right, did he stay all kinds Was it all
kinds of right there next to the bed? Thomas, Yeah,
it was right there. Question did you have to move
them out at all? Thomas? No, because they did. They
was doing the AED and everything right there inside the cell.
Question so right in the corner of that bunk, Thomas,
it's not in the corner. It can stretch out like
you know. He gets interrupted. No, No, I'm saying for you.
When you're doing your chest compressions, Thomas. No, when I'm
doing my chest compressions, he's laying out right here a
few feet maybe all right here, but he's laying about
right here like about this way. Question okay Thomas without
the wall, of course. Question but so he was on
the floor, Thomas, he was on the floor. Question while
you were doing the CPR, you didn't really have to
move them that much, Thomas, I did not. Question after
you like move them from the hanging position to the
ground to the floor chess compressions immediately Thomas, yes. Question
all right, did you do anything else Thomas, Uh. Other
than the chess compressions question Thomas No. Soon thereafter, there
was a whole bunch of staff there. Question about how
long were you doing the chess compressions for Thomas. Maybe
a minute or so. I don't I can't really recall.
Question you don't remember, Thomas, It seemed like the blink
of an eye before everybody was around me. Question did
he seem like he was dead at the time? Thomas, No,
he didn't. Question he actually seemed like he was alive. Thomas.
I don't really want to say dead or alive, but
I was doing chess compressions. I mean, I'm not a doctor,
so anything like that. But I just know I just
keep going. I don't know if he was dead or
anything at the time. Question did you notice if he
had like did you check for a pulse or anything
like that? Thomas, the doctor was there. I know I
was doing chess compressions. I didn't stop to check for
a pulse. I let the medical staff do that because
it was somebody from medical doing that. Question So how
did you know to do chess compressions if you didn't,
he gets cut off. I mean, I don't know if
somebody looked like they're not breathing or anything like that.
He's not talking. I'm yelling out his name, he's not responding. Question,
So did you check for breath? Thomas? Yeah, I did
a check for breath. Question, So to doing chest compressions,
you check for breath? Thomas, Yeah, I check for breath. Question?
And how did you do that? Thomas? I just when
I would go like this, I was telling Epstein, like yo, Epstein, Epstein,
he wasn't breathing. So that's my interpretation of checking. I'm yelling,
he's not breathing, he's not calling to me, he's not
saying anything. Question, So I guess what I'm asking Thomas.
Did I put my hand over and check for a breath? Question? Yeah? Yeah, Thomas. No,
I did not question? So you didn't like he gets
cut off? No, I was yelling for his name and
everything to see if he was like doing like anything
that in there. I'm like Epstein Epstein, I'm pushing his
upper torso. Question. All right, So you didn't feel for
a pulse or check for a breath, Thomas, No, I
didn't do all that stuff. No question, all right? But
you believed he wasn't breathing. Question, I don't know if
he was breathing or not. I know he was just hanging,
so I was just trying to get him to start. Question.
So you saw him hanging and just your natural reaction
then was to Thomas absolutely. Question, So you don't actually
know if he was breathing. Thomas, I don't know. Question.
You don't know if he was breathing, so you don't
know if he was a live or not. Thomas. I
don't know if he was a live or not. No question, Okay,
So just all right, so you didn't actually check for anything.
You just went right to chess compressions. Thomas. Yeah, went
to chess compressions and yelling. I wasn't getting no response. Question, Okay,
did you like hit him or anything first? Thomas, No question,
like trying to wake him up? Thomas. I just kept
yelling his name, and I'm shaking him and doing chess compressions.
That should be enough to wake somebody up for somebody
to hey, hey like that. I didn't he gets cut off.
Didn't they teach you CPR though, Thomas, Yeah, that's part
of the art. Question did they teach you that prior
to doing CPR? You're supposed to, like, check the c
if they're alive first, Thomas, to CPR, the standard model
is check for airways and everything like that. But in
the course of the moment, I didn't slow down and say,
let me see, I check for responsiveness. And that's exactly
what I did. When I'm yelling your name, that's checking
for a response. Question, right, Thomas, I wasn't getting any response.
Question Okay. No. The only reason I'm going more into
detail is because you said you aren't sure if he
was alive or not. Thomas, Uh huh, I understand question. No,
I'm just trying to figure out if there's more questions
I need to ask with regard to that, Thomas, No problem.
At any time when you were doing chess, compressions or
any of that, did he ever open his eyes or
seemed to take a breath, Thomas, Not that I recall.
I don't remember, really, question okay, all right. Didn't No
Weell ever enter the cell to assist you, Thomas, I
don't remember. I remember seeing her. I don't know if
she was in the cell. There were so many people
in that cell in such a short period of time,
so I really don't remember if she was one of
the people or not. I can only remember actually two
faces at this present time. One is the medical person
I can't remember his name, and the other one is question,
how do you spell redacted? Thomas redacted? Question? Okay, who
is that Thomas? Officer? Question just an officer that came
in response Thomas mm hmm. All right, folks, we're gonna
wrap up right here, and in the next episode dealing
with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off.
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