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Speaker 1: Andy Nelson here from the Marvel Movie Minute Podcast with
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Speaker 1: every detail of this epic superhero franchise.
Speaker 7: In our season, looking at Ironman three, we're gonna mix
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Speaker 6: That's right.
Speaker 1: Rob and I are your guide, but instead of our
Speaker 1: usual minute by minute format, we dive into five minutes
Speaker 1: of the film in each weekly episode.
Speaker 7: It's a totally new approach, but one that still allows
Speaker 7: us to explore all the depth and detail that makes
Speaker 7: these movies so special, even if Ironman three isn't all
Speaker 7: that's special. Hold on, that's where you're wrong, extremists. Shane Black, Yeah,
Speaker 7: would you like to look at the Mandarin and Maya Hanson?
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Speaker 1: Because in the Marvel Cinematic universe, every minute is packed
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Speaker 5: Enough said.
Speaker 4: Hello to Welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today
Speaker 4: we are talking about hope, Hope that Superman can embody,
Speaker 4: Hope that this will be an interesting podcast discussion based
Speaker 4: on only two minutes of trailer. Hope that this will
Speaker 4: be a Superman that might actually make Jessica Plumber say
Speaker 4: this is something like the character that she fell in
Speaker 4: love with in comic books and that all the rest
Speaker 4: of us should have been waiting for, despite my love
Speaker 4: of Christopher Reeves. So, yes, we're talking about the newest
Speaker 4: Superman trailer. We're gonna spend a lot of time talking
Speaker 4: about heroes with bad haircuts, but we're mostly gonna be
Speaker 4: talking about the character of Superman and what does this
Speaker 4: new image of Superman that James gunn is possibly can
Speaker 4: be giving us, How does it relate to the character
Speaker 4: from comics, how does it relate to other versions, and
Speaker 4: most importantly, why is this one we care about. It's myself, Matthew,
Speaker 4: my normal co host, Rieky, and of course Jessica Plummer,
Speaker 4: returning guest and comic book fan extraordinary Jessica, how have
Speaker 4: we been doing.
Speaker 2: I've been good. How you been doing pretty well?
Speaker 6: Pretty well?
Speaker 4: Been exciting a couple of weeks where we took a
Speaker 4: hiatus for a couple of weeks over the holidays.
Speaker 6: Glad to be back recording and glad to have you on. Riki.
Speaker 6: Let me first start with you. What do you know
Speaker 6: about Superman or what's been your relationship with this character
Speaker 6: just in general?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I've been a fan for a long
Speaker 5: time comic books, movies, TV shows, and I think last
Speaker 5: time the three of us got together, my kind of
Speaker 5: thesis was that Superman is a good TV show character
Speaker 5: because allows Clark Kent to really be the focus of
Speaker 5: the story, Whereas a Superman movie, with so much focus
Speaker 5: on action, you have to center it around Superman, who
Speaker 5: some people have derided as a boring superhero, right, Like,
Speaker 5: you can't make Superman interesting because he's invincible, so you
Speaker 5: had to come up with some conceit for why he's
Speaker 5: deep powered or why the opponent is more powerful than
Speaker 5: him at the moment, So I'm curious to see what
Speaker 5: this movie does.
Speaker 6: With Superman in that regard.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I wanst say. That was one that really
Speaker 4: had me convinced because I think you're right. Part of
Speaker 4: I love the Christopher Reeve movies. As a kid, those
Speaker 4: were my Superman as I discussed my father sued Superman,
Speaker 4: which was fun to say on the playground when I
Speaker 4: was five or six, But you know, as I grew up,
Speaker 4: I definitely was a kid it was like, oh no,
Speaker 4: Batman's so much cooler. And I think part of it
Speaker 4: is you're right, and I haven't really thought of it
Speaker 4: until we had that conversation that in a traditional superhero
Speaker 4: action movie, the main question extreen as always can our
Speaker 4: hero defeat the villain in single combat and you know,
Speaker 4: his legions and his big monster whatever it is, And
Speaker 4: it was Superman. If that's a character who are kind
Speaker 4: of the point is that that's not actually a real question.
Speaker 4: Then there's a whole other set of stuff that we
Speaker 4: don't normally get to explore. And so Jessico take take
Speaker 4: away from there, kind of talk a little about how
Speaker 4: that idea we're talking about, but also other ideas for you,
Speaker 4: what what's the essence of Superman that mean? And we
Speaker 4: haven't seen on the screen very often.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would definitely, like one hundred percent
Speaker 2: agree with Riep. I think Superman does better on TV,
Speaker 2: both because they have a lower budget so they have
Speaker 2: to use Clark more because it's easier and cheaper, and
Speaker 2: because the character is so designed for ongoing storytelling, like
Speaker 2: that's comics are sequential storytelling. So one hundred percent, Like
Speaker 2: I have said, I've said on this podcast that my
Speaker 2: preferred genre for Superman is is a workplace rom com,
Speaker 2: which is what most of the TV shows have been,
Speaker 2: And you don't really see that with a movie, and
Speaker 2: so I do think that, Look, we don't know until
Speaker 2: we see the movie, but I am choosing, you know,
Speaker 2: the episode is about hope. This episode is about hope.
Speaker 2: I am choosing to hope that the fact that we
Speaker 2: have seen like the whole Daily Planet staff except Perry,
Speaker 2: I think in the trailer means we're going to get
Speaker 2: like lots of Daily Planet scenes. We're going to get
Speaker 2: that emphasis on that part of Clark's life, because I
Speaker 2: think that's what's one of the major things that's been
Speaker 2: missing in Superman movies. Up to this point, we haven't
Speaker 2: seen a lot of Clark, and like you were saying,
Speaker 2: framing a movie around, can Superman beat this guy up? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: of course he can. He's Superman, and so yeah, I'd
Speaker 2: love to see more Clark. And I'd love to see.
Speaker 5: Like, how do you have Laurence fish for as Perry
Speaker 5: White and then just not use him at all?
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, those networks of relationships, Like if Superman is this,
Speaker 2: you know, friendly, warm, approachable character, he should have relationships.
Speaker 2: He should have relationships with his family, with his coworkers,
Speaker 2: with his wife obviously not his wife yet in the
Speaker 2: movie with the people of Metropolis, with his dog and
Speaker 2: other superheroes, and it seems like we're going to be
Speaker 2: getting that in some form in this movie, right.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The inclusion of the dog, I know it was something that
Speaker 4: that's tripped up a lot. The inclusion of the dog.
Speaker 4: I know it was something that's kicked off a lot
Speaker 4: of conversation online and I kind of don't get how
Speaker 4: anyone would not be in favor of it. I think
Speaker 4: the movie that came out not that long ago with
Speaker 4: Kevin Hart, and I think the Rock may have soured
Speaker 4: some folks, is that was not the movie is about
Speaker 4: Crypto and Batman's dog the.
Speaker 2: Name, Yeah, the super Pets movie.
Speaker 4: Super Pets, which was not the best. Necessarily people loved
Speaker 4: your thought and that's great. But yeah, to me, it
Speaker 4: just that one scene especially really seemed to feel like
Speaker 4: this is going to be a more lighthearted not that
Speaker 4: I'm sure there's maybe some seriousness involved, but that is
Speaker 4: going to be a little bit more of the rom com,
Speaker 4: a little more of the comedy of you know, a
Speaker 4: person attempting to live this double life of being Clark
Speaker 4: while being Superman, instead of it being about like, wam bam,
Speaker 4: look at the great majesty of the Kryptonians as they
Speaker 4: fight for the soul of Earth or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I will my my one tiny criticism. It's not
Speaker 2: even a criticism. I just like, this is what's going
Speaker 2: to happen in twenty twenty five. Everything's going to be CGI.
Speaker 2: But imagine if they had gotten like a dog actor
Speaker 2: and they got to go on like their press tour
Speaker 2: and the dog is like sitting in his own little
Speaker 2: chair and like we've lost something.
Speaker 5: I had not had that CGI.
Speaker 2: I I mean, I don't mean this critically. He looks
Speaker 2: cg to me like the way of furs, but maybe
Speaker 2: there's a real dog on.
Speaker 4: My understanding is that animal actors are not always treated
Speaker 4: the best, and so there is some there's some reason
Speaker 4: of like moving the CGI as a way to be
Speaker 4: better to the actors. But also, yeah, that would like
Speaker 4: I would hope there is some dog at some point
Speaker 4: that is doing some some of that, some of that
Speaker 4: and also being very well treated though.
Speaker 2: Yes, and getting and getting treats for doing stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because could Yeah, so we'll say about that, but yeah,
Speaker 4: talk about what else from the trailer kind of gives
Speaker 4: gives you some thought of what direction we might be
Speaker 4: going into this and why it might be a good one.
Speaker 2: I mean, the thing that really got me because I
Speaker 2: I am on the record as being self protective about
Speaker 2: this movie. I love Superman very very much. I as
Speaker 2: as you mocked me for have been kind of a
Speaker 2: downer about most Superman movies. I do think Christopher Reeve
Speaker 2: did a good job. It's just that's a pre crisis Superman,
Speaker 2: and I'm a post crisis gal. I really I had
Speaker 2: a lot of hope with the First Man of Steel
Speaker 2: trailer and then the movie turned out to not really
Speaker 2: be what I was looking for, and so I told myself,
Speaker 2: don't get excited just because the trailer looks good. You
Speaker 2: could be disappointed again, Like, don't get your hopes up.
Speaker 2: And then there was that one two punch in the
Speaker 2: trailer of like Crypto showing up, and then it cuts
Speaker 2: to Superman saving a little girl, and I was like,
Speaker 2: all right, James Gunn, you've got me, Like, that's all
Speaker 2: I want. I want him to love his dog and
Speaker 2: take care of those weaker than him. That's it.
Speaker 5: Maybe we can clarify for listeners real quick what you
Speaker 5: mean by pre and post crisis, because I'm familiar with comics.
Speaker 5: There are multiple crisises in DC, So what specifically are
Speaker 5: you telling us with that phrase.
Speaker 2: So in nineteen eighty five, DC decide to drastically revamp
Speaker 2: major aspects of their universe, and one of the things
Speaker 2: that got a really significant makeover was Superman. It's they
Speaker 2: did this by telling a story called Crisis on Infinite Earths,
Speaker 2: and so everything before that is considered pre crisis, and
Speaker 2: everything after that is the post crisis universe. And as
Speaker 2: you've said, there have since been further reboots, and so
Speaker 2: we got the New fifty two universe and we got
Speaker 2: the Rebirth universe, and like they it's that line from
Speaker 2: Pacific rim of like these happen more and more frequently,
Speaker 2: and soon we'll be seeing one every thirty seconds or whatever.
Speaker 2: But the changes to Superman have by and large really stuck,
Speaker 2: even despite those other reboots. And the major shift was
Speaker 2: before nineteen eighty five, Clark or Superman or kal El
Speaker 2: was the real person, like he landed on Earth with
Speaker 2: full memory of Krypton. He identify as Kryptonian everything about it,
Speaker 2: Like he Clark Kent was a disguise, that was a
Speaker 2: mask that he put on to move among humans from
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five on. He did not develop his powers
Speaker 2: until puberty, so he was raised as a human by humans.
Speaker 2: He identifies as Clark Kent. And it's not that Superman
Speaker 2: is a disguise so much is that it's the outfit
Speaker 2: he wears so that he can do his job. But
Speaker 2: he's much more obviously he's biologically the same amount of
Speaker 2: Kryptonian as he's ever been, but he's much more human
Speaker 2: personality wise, and that there are all sorts of other
Speaker 2: like little details of Superman's life that are either pre
Speaker 2: crisis or post crisis, but that's the major change, Like
Speaker 2: are we looking at somebody who thinks of himself as
Speaker 2: Superman or Clark Kent, Kryptonian or human? And it does
Speaker 2: seem like the movie is kind of juggling that question,
Speaker 2: which will be interesting and I have my opinion. We'll
Speaker 2: see where the movie lands.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I really like that phrasing, especially because one thing that
Speaker 4: if you heard Jessica on the podcast before we've talked
Speaker 4: about a lot, is that that idea stands very much
Speaker 4: in contrast to, for example, Batman, who I think and
Speaker 4: this is a theory I got from the folks at
Speaker 4: DC on Screen podcast, but I really think it holds
Speaker 4: up that in the best tellings of that, Bruce Wayne
Speaker 4: is a character he invents so that people don't lock
Speaker 4: him away. He is Batman like that is what his
Speaker 4: psychological profile is, and that that I think some of
Speaker 4: the best episodes of the Justice League cartoon or the
Speaker 4: Justice the Animated show, I should maybe say that are
Speaker 4: really about conflicts between Batman and Clark Kent. And I
Speaker 4: say those names very intentionally because it's they kind of
Speaker 4: clash because Batman doesn't understand that Clark mostly wants to
Speaker 4: be Clark and then put on the Cape to save people,
Speaker 4: and Clark doesn't understand that Batman doesn't want to actually
Speaker 4: mostly be Bruce Wayne, and vice versa.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot from the Lois and Clark TV
Speaker 2: show from the nineties where Clark says, and this to me,
Speaker 2: this is like what he says, Clark Kent is who
Speaker 2: I am. Superman is what I can do. And for
Speaker 2: me that has always been like the high water mark
Speaker 2: for understanding the division of the character, at least as
Speaker 2: I interpret him. But now that you said that about Batman,
Speaker 2: I think it's very funny to flip that on its
Speaker 2: head and say, like Batman is who I am, Bruce
Speaker 2: Wayne is what I can do, which is actually pretty
Speaker 2: fair because Bruce Wayne is the one with the money.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then the critique is often raised now of
Speaker 4: like the best way to stop crime is not to
Speaker 4: punch poor people who are turning to crime, but to
Speaker 4: give those poor people better alternatives so they don't have
Speaker 4: to go work for the Riddler.
Speaker 6: But that's a whole love it story.
Speaker 4: Well, and to talk about that, I think I had
Speaker 4: a similar reaction to what you were talking about about
Speaker 4: the moment where that he saves the little girl, And
Speaker 4: what really struck me was you were showing his power
Speaker 4: not in his ability to punch, not in his ability
Speaker 4: to fight, but in his ability to protect and Riki.
Speaker 6: For me, it really struck to a line in Star Wars.
Speaker 4: And you and I have talked about a lot that
Speaker 4: we don't We don't fight to destroy the things we hate,
Speaker 4: we fight to protect the things we love. For either
Speaker 4: of you talk about kind of what that scene means
Speaker 4: in the trailer and kind of what we think it's
Speaker 4: saying about whose Superman is?
Speaker 6: All right?
Speaker 5: I think that scene is everything, and it's it's a
Speaker 5: struck a similar chord as maybe the first episode of
Speaker 5: Superman and Lois the TV show on the WB that
Speaker 5: just wrapped up where they they put him in the
Speaker 5: classic like holding the car pose from Action Comics one,
Speaker 5: and then like he has a conversation with a kid.
Speaker 5: I think the kid like compliments as soon as like thanks,
Speaker 5: my mom made it, and it's like yes, like that's
Speaker 5: that's the Superman I love. And this Yeah, the scene
Speaker 5: you mentioned does give similar vibes that he's using his
Speaker 5: immense strength to protect the our most vulnerable and like that,
Speaker 5: that to me is like what's Superman should represent? And
Speaker 5: it you know, you said we're not going to bash
Speaker 5: the Snyder movies, but I believe it stands and start.
Speaker 5: Contrast to the way Superman acts in those movies often
Speaker 5: like callously destroying buildings and ultimately harming people in his
Speaker 5: battle is odd. And it took until Batman v. Superman
Speaker 5: where it's actually Bruce Wayne who's the one that's like
Speaker 5: taking care of the people on the ground, which is
Speaker 5: just like such a such a wild contrast to me.
Speaker 2: Well, he does until he decides to just hit him
Speaker 2: all with his tank, right, you.
Speaker 4: Know, practicality and yet and just to be clear there,
Speaker 4: I think I think I'm definitely on record as not
Speaker 4: being a fan of Zack snyder interpretation of a lot
Speaker 4: of these characters, especially Superman. I think right now the
Speaker 4: Internet is full of a lot of people being like
Speaker 4: yay Zack Snyder, the hell with this or yay James Gunn,
Speaker 4: which means the hell with Zack Snyder. My view is, look,
Speaker 4: a lot of people love Zack Snyder's interpretation and it
Speaker 4: wasn't my favorite. I'm guessing it wasn't your favorite of
Speaker 4: either of you two, And I don't think it has
Speaker 4: to be all about like which one's better, but I
Speaker 4: think we can talk about that was one particular direction
Speaker 4: for the character, and as Rikier said, this is a
Speaker 4: pretty stark contrast, and.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think I mean, I'll say it.
Speaker 5: I'll say that this is better and that it aligns
Speaker 5: more with my belief of what Superman should be. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and like that can differ from other people's belief but
Speaker 5: in terms of my perspective, I'm just gonna say it's better,
Speaker 5: Like I don't care.
Speaker 6: That's fair. That's really fair. Yeah, really one that I'm
Speaker 6: a lot more excited for.
Speaker 5: But what I am concerned? Sorry, go ahead, Jessica, Oh no, I.
Speaker 2: Was just gonna say, going back to the scene of
Speaker 2: him saving the little girl, I think comparing it to
Speaker 2: that moment in Superman and Lois is such a perfect
Speaker 2: comparison because right after he saves the little girl, we
Speaker 2: also have that moment of the little boy who's like
Speaker 2: putting up the flag with the Superman logo on it,
Speaker 2: and that also, like the I've seen a few I
Speaker 2: wish I had the links will never be able to
Speaker 2: find them. But I've seen a few posts like with
Speaker 2: people talking about Superman recently, especially in the wake of
Speaker 2: the trailer, how Superman is a power fantasy, but he's
Speaker 2: not a power fantasy of being able to do whatever
Speaker 2: you want, or to hurt people or beat anybody up.
Speaker 2: He's a power fantasy of being able to affect positive change,
Speaker 2: of being able to protect people who need it, which
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people right now, for various
Speaker 2: reasons that we don't need to get into, may be
Speaker 2: feeling that very much. And to me, Superman has always
Speaker 2: also been a point of inspiration, like the fact that
Speaker 2: he is this He's not a Clark Kent to me,
Speaker 2: is not a nerd like Peter Parker who gets bullied.
Speaker 2: He's just anonymous. He's forgettable. He blends into the crowd,
Speaker 2: like that scene of him navigating the busy streets in Metropolis,
Speaker 2: and like people not knowing he's un he goes unnoticed.
Speaker 2: To me, the metaphor of Superman has always been that
Speaker 2: we all look like ordinary, mild mattered people, and we
Speaker 2: all have this capacity for great good. And so to
Speaker 2: see him save a child and then inspire a child
Speaker 2: back to back point, it's so like I'm getting chills now.
Speaker 5: So good, and that that reminds me of a similar
Speaker 5: scene at the end of The Amazing Spider Man Too,
Speaker 5: the Andrew Garfield one, where Spider Man is like taking
Speaker 5: a break, but then a kid wearing a Spider Man
Speaker 5: mask like stands in front of the rhino, right, and
Speaker 5: then he showed Spider Man shows up and he's like
Speaker 5: thanks kid, like I got it from here. But yeah,
Speaker 5: like inspiring courage, inspiring hope, yeah, right. I think is
Speaker 5: an important role for heroes.
Speaker 4: Like this, And I'll say that that stands in mark
Speaker 4: contrast the person who is normally the one I'm always
Speaker 4: saying is better than Superman, but in this case, I
Speaker 4: think isn't. Because if you think about In the Dark Night,
Speaker 4: which I think is probably the pre eminent Batman movie
Speaker 4: except maybe for Robert Pattinson Batman, which is something I
Speaker 4: never thought i'd be saying. But in that when people
Speaker 4: try to be like, we're inspired by Batman, you want
Speaker 4: to do the same thing, He's like, no, go away,
Speaker 4: I don't want you here. And partially that's because you
Speaker 4: can't do what Batman does. Because Batman can do what
Speaker 4: he does because he has all of that money, and
Speaker 4: I think you're right that there's an extent to which, yes,
Speaker 4: I if I jump in front of someone who's getting
Speaker 4: maybe hit by a car, I'm not going to come
Speaker 4: out of that quite as well as a little as
Speaker 4: as Superman might. But I still can try. I can
Speaker 4: still And there's eight million other ways in which I can.
Speaker 4: You know, when someone who is not like me is
Speaker 4: getting bullied at school or at my work, or is
Speaker 4: not getting listened to, I can say, hey, maybe you
Speaker 4: know that person we keep shutting down, like let they
Speaker 4: had a great idea.
Speaker 6: Let's listen to that, like to me. I think that's
Speaker 6: one of the.
Speaker 4: I love these stories as metaphors because yeah, it shouldn't
Speaker 4: be about oh Superman can punch on in a way
Speaker 4: I never could, but it can be about yeah, Superman
Speaker 4: can use his ability to protect people. Well, what are
Speaker 4: my abilities? What are the privileges I have? What are
Speaker 4: the resources I have? How can I use those to
Speaker 4: protect people who are being attacked?
Speaker 2: And that's why he's a reporter, Like, yeah, that job
Speaker 2: is not an accident.
Speaker 5: And then go ahead, well I was just gonna say, like,
Speaker 5: in real life, you know, we don't have Superman, but
Speaker 5: I live in Los Angeles and we're dealing with horrible
Speaker 5: wildfires right now, and the brave people of the fire
Speaker 5: departments around the city are going out and you know,
Speaker 5: staring death in the face and doing amazing things. I
Speaker 5: can't do that. I'm not trained for that, I shouldn't
Speaker 5: do that. But from the fringes, I am like thinking of,
Speaker 5: like what can I do to help people, you know,
Speaker 5: not maybe directly, but indirectly, right you know, with volunteering
Speaker 5: my time or donating money, like those things are important.
Speaker 5: And so the people who have the great ability, like
Speaker 5: you know, going back to Spider Man, like the ability
Speaker 5: to inspire I think, yeah, other people to do what
Speaker 5: you can within your own meanings is absolutely tant amount.
Speaker 4: And I mean because you're going on that, like you're right,
Speaker 4: like you know, unless you have that good training, you
Speaker 4: shouldn't be finding a fire.
Speaker 6: I know that, you know.
Speaker 4: With all these people evacuating, because I'm in a lot
Speaker 4: of disability lists, I'm seeing a lot of great stuff
Speaker 4: about like you know, regular citizens, you know, going out
Speaker 4: to help their disabled neighbor evacuate who might not be
Speaker 4: able to or just you know, just give me a
Speaker 4: lot of people living in FEMA camps for a while
Speaker 4: after this, or otherwise needing help, you know, and like
Speaker 4: packing a bag of groceries to send to someone you
Speaker 4: know or whatever it is.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So that that kind of thing I really love.
Speaker 4: And and going to what you were just saying there, Jessica.
Speaker 4: On the one hand, I we're leaving an incredibly politicized
Speaker 4: world right now, as we've been seeing if you look online,
Speaker 4: even just the fire itself is getting very politicized. But
Speaker 4: whose fault it is and all this kind of stuff,
Speaker 4: And I think people know right where we take good.
Speaker 6: And you know, this podcast goes on the other times.
Speaker 6: I'm gonna bring that up.
Speaker 4: But there are ways in which I'm really curious how
Speaker 4: this movie is going to stand in that regard, because
Speaker 4: even something as simple as being part of the press
Speaker 4: is so politicized right now, you know, in terms of
Speaker 4: people's opinions about the media, and you know, Clark Kent
Speaker 4: and Superman, your peace, justice and the American way has
Speaker 4: always been very wrapped up in Americana in a way
Speaker 4: I think even more so than Captain America, who's literally
Speaker 4: Captain America.
Speaker 6: Go ahead.
Speaker 2: Well, actually, I was doing a bit of research on
Speaker 2: this recently. Originally, the American Way was not part of
Speaker 2: that tagline. So that line truth justice in the American
Speaker 2: Way comes from the Superman radio show, which started in
Speaker 2: forty or forty one or thereabouts.
Speaker 6: When we were in a war. Well, no, actually we
Speaker 6: were not.
Speaker 2: Go ahead, it depends on exactly. Yeah, No, was in
Speaker 2: December forty one, so we were not quite at war yet,
Speaker 2: and so it was truth and justice. There was also
Speaker 2: a bit in that opening. It was like the same opener,
Speaker 2: the equivalent to a theme song for every episode, and
Speaker 2: that was also where we got like faster than a
Speaker 2: speeding bullet, all that stuff. One of the things that
Speaker 2: was in there that we don't hear a lot anymore
Speaker 2: was Champion of the Oppressed, but was what was not
Speaker 2: originally in there was in the American Way that got
Speaker 2: added after we joined the war, and it eventually because
Speaker 2: that show ran into the fifties, eventually they took it
Speaker 2: back out and in the nineteen forty eight serials, so
Speaker 2: those were like short serialized episodes of that. You would
Speaker 2: go to the movies and before the movie they'd play
Speaker 2: like an episode of Superman. Basically in the serials, paw
Speaker 2: Kent actually tells Clark that he has to stand up
Speaker 2: for I believe it's truth and tolerance, like and there's
Speaker 2: no American way like that. We do think of that
Speaker 2: phrase with Superman, and I'm certainly not going to say
Speaker 2: that he's not very associated with Americana, because obviously he is.
Speaker 2: And there was a whole controversy about a decade ago
Speaker 2: when he like renounced his American citizenship and people freaked
Speaker 2: out or whatever. But that phrase has been used at
Speaker 2: very specific points in history for political reasons.
Speaker 6: Oh, I'm sure.
Speaker 4: I mean when you started saying it was added, my
Speaker 4: first thought was that was gonna be added during the
Speaker 4: Comics Code nineteen fifties days we were trying very hard
Speaker 4: to make comics patriotics.
Speaker 2: So no, you you'd think I mean that that would
Speaker 2: be a good guess.
Speaker 4: Well, that's just my point is that I think, like
Speaker 4: and already you know, I think there's a lot of
Speaker 4: people making the point that I would definitely agree with
Speaker 4: of like Superman's an illegal immigrant is a way of
Speaker 4: thinking of him and other people, you know, claiming on
Speaker 4: the Elon Musk's side and other people claiming that like
Speaker 4: Trump that and other people claiming that Superman is as apotomy. Yeah,
Speaker 4: one more time, and other people claiming that Superman is
Speaker 4: the epitome of conservative values, I claim that I do
Speaker 4: not think holds water, but it's certainly out there. And
Speaker 4: my point being that I can tell that the conversation
Speaker 4: about this is going to be incredibly politicized, and I'm
Speaker 4: curious to see to what extent Gun either is seen
Speaker 4: as making a point, or is making a point one
Speaker 4: or the other, or tries to make the movie very
Speaker 4: very much not making a point, which could be kind
Speaker 4: of a failing of just not saying anything. So you know,
Speaker 4: you're something I'm gonna curious about, because as you said,
Speaker 4: it seems like, you know, there's always if everything is political,
Speaker 4: everything is making a point. But Superman especially has always
Speaker 4: been a statement of some kind, whether it's from two
Speaker 4: Jewish men in the thirties wanting to create someone who
Speaker 4: stands up to evil landlords and union crushing bosses, to
Speaker 4: in the forties of wanting to have an epitome of
Speaker 4: America in a time of war, to the sixties and
Speaker 4: seventies and all the way.
Speaker 6: Up to today.
Speaker 4: Because I certainly think that that idea of like and
Speaker 4: we can talk forever about like you know, what American
Speaker 4: ideals versus American actuality or whatever. But like I surely
Speaker 4: grew up at a time of learning, like you know,
Speaker 4: what America is about is about standing up for the
Speaker 4: little guy, you know, and like protecting those who need
Speaker 4: protecting from the menace of communism.
Speaker 6: Because it was the eighties, but like that, it was
Speaker 6: those ideals.
Speaker 4: And so I think for a long time I rejected
Speaker 4: Superman because it felt like, oh, American propaganda stuff. And
Speaker 4: now to time when it's a lot more discussion about
Speaker 4: like reclaiming that sort of thing. Yeah, it's just also
Speaker 4: the reasons. I'm interest to see where they go with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I also think with a character like Superman,
Speaker 2: like Superman is bigger than any individual Superman story. And
Speaker 2: there was something, I want to say, it was at
Speaker 2: the end of last year. There's something going around where
Speaker 2: people could vote on whether they thought certain fictional characters
Speaker 2: were Republicans or Democrats, and oh, yeah, I remember that.
Speaker 2: I don't think Superman was actually on there, but Captain
Speaker 2: America was, and it was right down the middle because
Speaker 2: Captain America in the comics is very left leaning. If
Speaker 2: you read the comics he's very left leaning, like read
Speaker 2: the stuff that was coming out around Watergate. But if
Speaker 2: you were thinking about Captain America as a symbol, as
Speaker 2: an icon, as a guy in a costume you can
Speaker 2: take photos with in Times Square, he's a litmus test
Speaker 2: for what you personally believe America should be. And Superman
Speaker 2: functions very very similarly. So yes, in the actual text
Speaker 2: of the comics, and of course we're talking about eighty
Speaker 2: seven years of comics now, so there is a range
Speaker 2: of how he behaves. But in the text of the comics,
Speaker 2: he is an illegal immigrant and a journalist, and those
Speaker 2: have implications for what he would believe. But as an
Speaker 2: as a larger than life icon, he is going to
Speaker 2: be whatever you personally think is good, right.
Speaker 5: And I think a lot of where Superman will be
Speaker 5: positioned as a political symbol in these movies is going
Speaker 5: to depend on Lex Luthor because especially like Superman's immigrant
Speaker 5: status is most highlighted by Lex Luthor, like when he's
Speaker 5: making a presidential run or something like that, when he's
Speaker 5: when he's trying to gather more political power, he highlights
Speaker 5: that Superman is not one of us, as in like
Speaker 5: in this case, a literal alien right, but that obviously
Speaker 5: has very like real world implications, and so I'm very
Speaker 5: curious to see what this Gun movie is going to
Speaker 5: do with Lex Luthor, who I just learned is going
Speaker 5: to be played by Nicholas Holt, which is fascinating. I
Speaker 5: just saw a screenshot of him without the hair, which
Speaker 5: is good. Just just start him out, don't don't have
Speaker 5: a weird explanation for why he loses his hair. Just
Speaker 5: have him start out bald, because that's how we know
Speaker 5: Lex Luthor so good.
Speaker 4: I will say that while I love Jesse Eisenberg as
Speaker 4: an actor, his version of Lex Luthor in it sat
Speaker 4: Nyer Movies is probably the one that was the most
Speaker 4: like hashtag not my so and so, and he makes.
Speaker 2: That guy ranch.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's exactly what he was, just being a dime
Speaker 4: store joker, like it was just the jokers, a great villain,
Speaker 4: but the joker is a joker. Don't make the joker
Speaker 4: into but anyway. So I'm just hoping or something very
Speaker 4: very different from that.
Speaker 2: I mean, for me, the performance to be will always
Speaker 2: be Michael Rosenbaum. Like I will never say Smallville is
Speaker 2: the best Superman story out there, but Rosenbaum's Lex is
Speaker 2: he's so good.
Speaker 4: I'm about halfway into season one when I'm still not sure,
Speaker 4: like to what extent he's nefarious, or to what extent
Speaker 4: this is his origin story.
Speaker 2: And he just kind of not at all.
Speaker 4: Well, the thing is, so far, he's very convincing, is Lex.
Speaker 4: He's very convincing as a rich kid who's trying not
Speaker 4: to be so privileged.
Speaker 6: What he's not doing.
Speaker 4: He's not very convincing as a high school student because
Speaker 4: the actor's like thirty with the show, Well he's not.
Speaker 2: He's in his twenties, which makes it especially weird that
Speaker 2: he meets a fourteen year old and is like, I'd
Speaker 2: like to buy you presents and invite you to my house.
Speaker 5: Like he's just trying to be Doc Brown.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he has a lot of the trappings like here's okay,
Speaker 2: here's my thing for Lex Luthor. I want any Luther
Speaker 2: to be constantly swirling brandy in a snifterer while listening
Speaker 2: to Wagner, maybe lying on a tiger skin rug in
Speaker 2: front of a roaring fire like that, Like I want
Speaker 2: everything to smoking a cigar like that is what I
Speaker 2: want from any Luthor. And Michael Rosemom does that all
Speaker 2: the time, and he says everything in a really sinister way,
Speaker 2: but he's actually just a super nice guy who Clark
Speaker 2: is terrible too. It's like a really bizarre dynamic.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And for me, I mean it's funny if we're
Speaker 4: talking for about punching the ultimate heroes and stuff, the
Speaker 4: ultimate bad guys. My Lex is always gonna be Gene
Speaker 4: Hackman because that's who I grew up on. I think
Speaker 4: he's fantastic, But part of what I think is fascinating
Speaker 4: is he's an idiot in those Christian He's like, he's
Speaker 4: pretty good, but his main assistant is an utter bumbling
Speaker 4: nincom poop. Oh, what's his name?
Speaker 2: Otis?
Speaker 4: Otis, Yes, Otis, and of course all the stuff with
Speaker 4: him and his test maker. So I would love to
Speaker 4: see more of those side characters explored in great ways.
Speaker 2: Well. And that's another thing that when they revamped Superman
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty five, Prior to that, Lex had been
Speaker 2: a mad scientist. That was his thing. And actually the
Speaker 2: fact that he's got this weird real estate scheme in
Speaker 2: the movies is a little it's almost like a pre
Speaker 2: cursor to where he would go because it was not
Speaker 2: until post crisis, after nineteen eighty five that he became
Speaker 2: a businessman.
Speaker 6: And like, oh interesting, okay.
Speaker 2: Before that, like he was a mad scientist. He was
Speaker 2: a known criminal. He was always breaking out of jail.
Speaker 2: Everybody knew that he was a criminal, and they pivoted that.
Speaker 2: It was a really big change to make him this
Speaker 2: respected figure who like they're constantly resetting it. They're constantly
Speaker 2: having him be like, oh, I didn't do all those crimes.
Speaker 2: It was my clone. And they're like, oh, We're so sorry,
Speaker 2: mister Luthor. Please right take back your billions of dollars
Speaker 2: and go back to your penthouse. And I think as
Speaker 2: every single year that has gone by since nineteen eighty five,
Speaker 2: that has only become more relevant.
Speaker 6: And can we just shut.
Speaker 4: The door on him in a mecha suit because those
Speaker 4: are not my favorite Lex Luthor's.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 5: No, I was about to say, like that's I don't
Speaker 5: think we've had a live action in Luthor suit right,
Speaker 5: the green and purple.
Speaker 2: I don't think we have.
Speaker 5: And that's what I would want out of this movie.
Speaker 6: Again.
Speaker 5: I think Nicholas Holt is a is a kind of
Speaker 5: actor who could carry that that physicality even though like
Speaker 5: a lot of it would be cgi like he's done.
Speaker 5: He was Beast in the X Men movie, so he's
Speaker 5: he's got some some pedigree that that would be more
Speaker 5: believable I think than a lot of other lutherers like
Speaker 5: Gene Hackman, you would never want to have in a suit.
Speaker 2: And I think I could see James Gunn going for
Speaker 2: it because he likes the most ridiculous elements, like he
Speaker 2: really embraces those, which I fully support that. I love
Speaker 2: that he does that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and.
Speaker 5: Well, I was gonna say, with what we know from
Speaker 5: the trailer slash cast, I don't think that there's another
Speaker 5: I mean, there are a couple of potentials, but it
Speaker 5: seems like Luthor is poised to be the final boss
Speaker 5: of this movie.
Speaker 4: I mean, there is a dragon just putting it out there.
Speaker 4: There's a giant lizard breathing fire. But yes, it's probably
Speaker 4: a tool of the antagonist. But there was a dragon
Speaker 4: in the movie.
Speaker 2: So isn't Max Lord. Yeah? Max Lord is in this
Speaker 2: Oh I saw that Max Lord paying him right.
Speaker 5: That's my issue is that I don't think the way
Speaker 5: that James uses as Brother Sean that he would be
Speaker 5: a main villain.
Speaker 2: No, I agree and also he was the main villain
Speaker 2: in Wonder Woman nineteen eighty four, and they might want
Speaker 2: to be like, let's not go back to that.
Speaker 4: Well so soon I was gonna say, which is a
Speaker 4: criminal under using of Patropascal and I would have loved
Speaker 4: to see him recast in this.
Speaker 5: But fair enough, Oh, I thought he was good, Like
Speaker 5: the movie was bad, but I.
Speaker 6: Know what I mean.
Speaker 4: It's like he was really good in a really bad movie.
Speaker 4: But even then his character was terribly written.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm also a Max Lord like this one
Speaker 2: woman Max Lord Defense Squad because he only became a
Speaker 2: villain okay, twenty one years ago, but so yes, it
Speaker 2: was a long time ago, but I knew him before
Speaker 2: and he was my friend. I'm still I'm still bitter
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 6: That's fair.
Speaker 5: So as we're exploring.
Speaker 6: Luthor, and.
Speaker 4: One thing I'll say on that Lex Luthor is and
Speaker 4: here's why I kind of don't like the mecha suit
Speaker 4: for me. And granted this, I did come up with
Speaker 4: the Christopher Reeves Gene Hackman but in which I think
Speaker 4: one of that says a very strong theme. But also
Speaker 4: I think it comes out in a lot of the
Speaker 4: comics pre mecha suit is that kind of going back
Speaker 4: to you before Superman is the person who can out
Speaker 4: punch anyone, and so Lex Luthor, at least as the
Speaker 4: evil Genius, I loved as a villain because there's no
Speaker 4: question in the world that Superman can punch Lex Luthor
Speaker 4: in the face and win, like that's never a question.
Speaker 4: The problem is that Lec Luther is always five steps
Speaker 4: ahead and a chess match where if he does just
Speaker 4: punch him, he won't stop the missiles that are gonna
Speaker 4: trigger this. They're gonna tgger whatever in the Rothstein machine
Speaker 4: that's gonna cause it all to rug Goldberg machine.
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, it's gonna make it all happen.
Speaker 4: And that therefore I love when he has to be
Speaker 4: Clark Kent the journalist to find out the secrets and
Speaker 4: figure it all out. And so that was just my
Speaker 4: argument for anti mechasuit is I really like the idea
Speaker 4: of Lex Luthor, who's always like, yeah, you can beat
Speaker 4: me up Superman, that's never in question. The problem is
Speaker 4: can you figure out my eight level complicated plan.
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, fair enough, but we'll.
Speaker 4: See now we do have a number of other great
Speaker 4: characters that this has gone into that Riquanno, you wanted
Speaker 4: to jump into so take us away.
Speaker 5: Well, this is an area where I was a little
Speaker 5: disappointed or wary of the trailer is that they show
Speaker 5: other members of the Justice League, presumably in this universe,
Speaker 5: and I don't I just want a good Superman film,
Speaker 5: and by showing us that, hey, there's Justice League, they're
Speaker 5: in this movie, it just feels like another step in
Speaker 5: DC trying to play catch up with Marvel, you know,
Speaker 5: after all their failed attempts in the past, saying well,
Speaker 5: we need to get our justice our Justice League movie
Speaker 5: and our DCEU going quickly because we're still like several
Speaker 5: steps behind Marvel.
Speaker 6: So I just wanted a.
Speaker 5: Like simple Superman movie Lex Luthor, Lois Lane. But we
Speaker 5: get Guy Gardner going Green Lantern. There's a Hawk girl
Speaker 5: in the trailer. I think I saw mister Terrific, but
Speaker 5: I'm not seeing him listed in the cast for some reason.
Speaker 5: But in the cast I am seeing Rex Mason listed,
Speaker 5: So that like, that's a lot of secondary hero characters
Speaker 5: to have in a Superman movie. And I James Gunn
Speaker 5: in both DC and Marvel has done a good job
Speaker 5: with ensemble casts. But I don't want a Superman movie
Speaker 5: to have an ensemble cast, like at least in the
Speaker 5: hero department. So so thoughts on.
Speaker 2: That, Yeah, I am also wary for that same reason.
Speaker 2: I like, I mean, my thoughts are exactly the same
Speaker 2: as yours. I am excited. I want to see these characters. Like,
Speaker 2: I am a DC girl. I love the DC universe.
Speaker 2: I am so sad that so far DC has not
Speaker 2: really managed to build that kind of extended universe that
Speaker 2: allows us to see all these characters. Although to be fair,
Speaker 2: they definitely did on the CW. There were like billions
Speaker 2: of characters over there.
Speaker 4: We literally did Crisis on Infinite Earth with yeah, the
Speaker 4: episode on five different television shows.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like which I mean, there's something about that
Speaker 2: which is like so perfect because it's how these events
Speaker 2: play out in comics where you have to like read
Speaker 2: all these different comics, and which goes back to what
Speaker 2: we started this episode talking about, which is that these
Speaker 2: stories maybe work better television then for movies. But so, like,
Speaker 2: I'm happy to see all of these characters. Like Guy
Speaker 2: Gardner is my favorite Green Lantern. I am thrilled that
Speaker 2: he's here with his terrible hair. I think Nathan Fillion
Speaker 2: is having the most fun, Like, I'm so excited for this.
Speaker 2: I love Metamorpho, I love Hawk Girl, like I love
Speaker 2: Mister t Like. These are all characters I want to see,
Speaker 2: but I worry that they're gonna get in the way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so here's the one counter argument I'll make. And
Speaker 4: then I do want to talk about bad Haircut Guy
Speaker 4: because for me, as someone who the only real exposure
Speaker 4: Green Lantern I've had is to John Stewart, I was
Speaker 4: very surprised that it wasn't John Stewart. And to be clear,
Speaker 4: I'm talking about the John Stuart Green Lantern, not the
Speaker 4: Daily Show former host. But those game as a superhero
Speaker 4: would also be phenomenal. But I love the idea of
Speaker 4: the office rom con that you're talking about. That focus
Speaker 4: is more on Clark. I've never really seen that on screen,
Speaker 4: so I don't have anything to compare it to. What
Speaker 4: I will say though, is that I think my favorite
Speaker 4: Superman stories that I have seen on screen, with exception
Speaker 4: of like you know, the Crystal Reeve that it's loved
Speaker 4: as a kid, is where it's Superman as a distinct
Speaker 4: contrast to most of.
Speaker 6: The rest of the other heroes.
Speaker 4: Like I really like a Justice League, where Batman is
Speaker 4: one extreme Superman is another, and most of the heroes
Speaker 4: are somewhere in the middle, with each one kind of
Speaker 4: you know, aligning with different ones depending on you know,
Speaker 4: where they are. Not that they're fighting with each other,
Speaker 4: but they have different philosophies of how to approach the
Speaker 4: ethical issues of superheroes, which, shocking enough, is what I
Speaker 4: really care about. And I do really like the idea that, like,
Speaker 4: there's a moment that to me feels very Superman from
Speaker 4: the from the MCU, which is in the second Avengers
Speaker 4: movie when they're like getting ready to like finally take
Speaker 4: on the heads of Hydra and captain Americas's language when
Speaker 4: someone says like damn or something like that, and I
Speaker 4: feel like that that to me is very much a
Speaker 4: Superman kind of idea of like he's gonna be leading
Speaker 4: the heroes, He's gonna be helping the heroes, but he's
Speaker 4: also like keeping them in line to some extent, especially
Speaker 4: when some of them are maybe wandering a little more
Speaker 4: into vigilante status or you know, self serving or whatever
Speaker 4: it is. So I think, to me, that's the idea
Speaker 4: of why I like having Superman, along with a lot
Speaker 4: of other heroes, But I agree with you that, like
Speaker 4: if all we have is a two and a half
Speaker 4: hour movie, which I wish we were back to two
Speaker 4: hour movies, but that's just the new length and you know,
Speaker 4: pain for the bladder on those of us were older,
Speaker 4: but fair enough. Yeah, I think that that's the argument
Speaker 4: I would make about why I want Superman in a
Speaker 4: movie with other heroes, But I agree with you that
Speaker 4: I don't think it has to be this first movie.
Speaker 2: I also, I get worried about that because I don't
Speaker 2: I'm just speculating here. I don't know where things are going.
Speaker 2: But all of the superheroes that we do see besides
Speaker 2: Superman have seemed to have some kind of uniform going on,
Speaker 2: and I I worry that they're going to be sort
Speaker 2: of like not the bad guys, but like really misguided,
Speaker 2: or they're like all working for the man, or they're
Speaker 2: like all government agents and Superman has to show them
Speaker 2: the error of their ways, and they're like it. Like
Speaker 2: there's a scene where really it looks like Guy is
Speaker 2: arresting Clark or confronting him in some way, and for Guy,
Speaker 2: that's he's I'm willing to let him be a douchebag,
Speaker 2: because he is a douchebag, and that's part of why
Speaker 2: I like him. But I don't want to bring in
Speaker 2: a bunch of superheroes to be like, look at them,
Speaker 2: they're terrible compared to Superman, because I love all that's fair.
Speaker 4: Yeah, to me, it's very much like they're all good guys,
Speaker 4: but they have different philosophies and Superman's maybe a bit
Speaker 4: more the boy scout than the rest of them, and
Speaker 4: that's different than he's doing it right.
Speaker 6: They're all doing it wrong.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So talk to me more about Guy Gardner, because,
Speaker 4: as I said, I was definitely surprised, a because I
Speaker 4: think John Stewart is the dominant one in a lot
Speaker 4: of the Justice League stuff, which I think it is
Speaker 4: one of the main things that people who haven't ord
Speaker 4: the comics are probably influenced of. But also because and
Speaker 4: naming Hollywood realities, John Stewart is a black man, and uh,
Speaker 4: I don't The character's blackness isn't like he's not black
Speaker 4: Panther by any means or Luke Cage, but his blackness
Speaker 4: is a part of who the character is. And colic
Speaker 4: of movies continue not to be the biggest bastion of
Speaker 4: diversity in the world. So I'm not saying like they're
Speaker 4: wrong to not use the black character if they could have,
Speaker 4: but it definitely felt like a curious choice. When you
Speaker 4: know people are gonna ask you how diverse you are,
Speaker 4: and you had that option, Why do you think they
Speaker 4: did tell me more about Guy Gardner and why should
Speaker 4: be happy that they've made this choice.
Speaker 2: Well, so, the Green Lanterns, for anybody not familiar with them,
Speaker 2: they're basically space cops. So there are literally thousands of them. Obviously,
Speaker 2: there aren't that many who are important characters, but there are.
Speaker 6: The Green Lantern Core, right, the Green Lantern Core.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think there are like nine of them from
Speaker 2: Earth these days, and that's not counting Alan Scott, the
Speaker 2: first Green Lantern, who isn't part of the core because
Speaker 2: the writers hadn't invented it yet. So this sort of
Speaker 2: iconic Green Lantern historically is Hal Jordan, who's been around
Speaker 2: since nineteen fifty nine, and he's the one that Ryan
Speaker 2: Reynolds played in the Unfortunate to twenty eleven movie. Then
Speaker 2: Guy Gardner was brought in a few years after that
Speaker 2: as a very very minor character but sort of an
Speaker 2: alternate like if anything happened to how guy was there
Speaker 2: and he really developed a personality again during the eighties.
Speaker 2: It all comes back to the eighties as sort of
Speaker 2: this like brash asshole, like he is a bully, and
Speaker 2: he's rude, and he's misogynistic and he's xenophobic and he
Speaker 2: hates comies and I'll never shut up about it and
Speaker 2: the whole he was a comic relief character, Like that
Speaker 2: was the point. It was a joke about like this
Speaker 2: kind of swaggering, macho male lead that was common at
Speaker 2: the time. And then from that point the character gradually
Speaker 2: got more and more nuance added to him, and he's
Speaker 2: a much more complex character now, but he does have
Speaker 2: that very abrasive quality and he's he's funny. He's still
Speaker 2: best as a comic relief character. And I think that,
Speaker 2: more than anything else, is why James Gunn Cassen because
Speaker 2: James Gunn likes to do or Casson picked him because
Speaker 2: he likes to do comedy and he wanted to give
Speaker 2: his buddy Nathan a role and it was it fit,
Speaker 2: that's right. John Stewart was introduced in nineteen seventy one
Speaker 2: and very specifically his creators, Dannie O'Neill and Neil Adams,
Speaker 2: wanted to introduce a black Green Lantern. They wanted to
Speaker 2: introduce a black hero. DC basically didn't have any black heroes,
Speaker 2: and then they very very quickly added like five of
Speaker 2: them between like sixty nine and seventy one, and John
Speaker 2: Stewart depending on how you count it, as their first
Speaker 2: actual black superhero because he's the first one to have
Speaker 2: a code name and a costume. Yeah. So John Stewart
Speaker 2: became a much more prominent character thanks to the Justice
Speaker 2: League cartoon, where he was chosen because they wanted the
Speaker 2: cartoon to not be an all white cast, and he is.
Speaker 2: He became one of the best known characters. I'm certainly
Speaker 2: not saying he shouldn't have been in this movie. I
Speaker 2: will note that there is going to be The Green
Speaker 2: Lanterns TV show and he is one of the main
Speaker 2: characters along with Hal. I think the choice was just
Speaker 2: made to use Guy Gardner for the comic relief, and
Speaker 2: they also have mister terrific Michael Holt in this movie,
Speaker 2: who is black, and I think, like, obviously black superheroes
Speaker 2: are not interchangeable, but I think that that was more
Speaker 2: of their life. You want to make sure this is
Speaker 2: not an all white lineup.
Speaker 4: Well, there's gonna be more green, green lantern contact with
Speaker 4: John Stewart, as you said, having him be not here's
Speaker 4: the green lantern you're gonna care about going forward, but
Speaker 4: here's an imbecile that you're gonna have fun laughing at
Speaker 4: as part of the show. But it also introduces the
Speaker 4: idea that the green Lantern core exists. That makes atal sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, Rick, you were yeah, Guy thing.
Speaker 5: No, I'm I'm sold on Guy in this movie. I
Speaker 5: actually agree. I think I would rather have Guy Gardner
Speaker 5: in this movie than John Stewart for a lot of
Speaker 5: the reasons that you just said, Jessica, And if I
Speaker 5: could summarize it, it would be that I don't think
Speaker 5: Guy Gardner is a main character, whereas I think John
Speaker 5: Stewart is a main character. He is gonna I think
Speaker 5: with all these things, like, we don't know if they're
Speaker 5: actually gonna get made, but I think Lanterns is looking
Speaker 5: good to get made because they have cast Aaron Pierre
Speaker 5: as John Stewart. Matthew. He's the He's the main actor
Speaker 5: in the revel Ridge movie that I've been telling you.
Speaker 5: So he's he is, like he's got that, he's got
Speaker 5: the swag to be John Stewart to be a main character,
Speaker 5: And if he were in this, I think I would
Speaker 5: be very disappointed. Like I just want Guy Gardner to
Speaker 5: get punched by whatever the main bad person is in
Speaker 5: this and like have a bloody nose, and like Nathan
Speaker 5: Fillian can play that character perfectly.
Speaker 6: Yes, Okay, that sounds great. I'm here for the hammer.
Speaker 2: You know, come down, Matthew. This may sell you. The
Speaker 2: most famous iconic scene that Guy Gardner has ever experienced
Speaker 2: in his entire career is getting punched in the face
Speaker 2: by Batman.
Speaker 6: It, I mean, that sounds perfect.
Speaker 2: Then Guy Gardner, one punch.
Speaker 6: Okay, there we go. There we go.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And like John Stewart has like some actual, very interesting
Speaker 5: emotional solo stories associated with him that I hope that
Speaker 5: the TV show would you utilize some of. It's also
Speaker 5: going to have Hal Jordan's so we'll have to see
Speaker 5: like what the balance is between those two, whether they're
Speaker 5: partners or whether they alternate their storylines and whatnot. But
Speaker 5: I I like Guy as a character. But I think
Speaker 5: of the four traditional Earth Green lanterns to me, like
Speaker 5: he's the least able to carry carry a story on
Speaker 5: his own.
Speaker 6: Ye with the four.
Speaker 5: With the fourth being gosh, I'm blank name Yeah, Kyle
Speaker 5: who you may be familiar with the term fridging that
Speaker 5: actually originated from his storyline where his girlfriend was killed
Speaker 5: by his opponent.
Speaker 2: Got it put and placed in a fridge.
Speaker 6: Yeah, her decapitated and her head placed there.
Speaker 2: Oh no, no whole body.
Speaker 6: Oh really, I've always heard that it's her head.
Speaker 5: Okay, okay, it's yeah, well.
Speaker 6: That either way. But how very edgy exactly.
Speaker 4: Which I'll be honest, that's the thing. I love edginus
Speaker 4: in superheroes, but we've had it so much. I'm very
Speaker 4: okay with some rounded edges with my Superman this time around.
Speaker 4: And that sounds like maybe that's what we're gonna get.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I think I think this is gonna be
Speaker 5: a very wholesome Superman.
Speaker 2: M hm.
Speaker 5: Again, like we've only seen bits and pieces, but David
Speaker 5: cornsweat the actor. I watched a TV show with him.
Speaker 5: I can't remember what it was called, but I literally
Speaker 5: was like, this guy should play Superman and then I
Speaker 5: like googled it and it's like, oh, he's already cast yep.
Speaker 5: But then, like, I think the thing that impressed me
Speaker 5: the most in this trailer for him specifically was his
Speaker 5: Clark Kent scenes. Like he he did look the part
Speaker 5: of the bumbling, like unassuming guy, and I feel like
Speaker 5: they may have put him in a suit that's like
Speaker 5: too big for him, like intentionally to make him look smaller.
Speaker 6: Oh that's really smart.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it just looks good. It makes him look smaller,
Speaker 2: and it makes him look less cool and less self assured.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I saw a quote from him where he was saying
Speaker 2: that part of his inspiration for the character's body language
Speaker 2: as Clark was his brother in law, who is six
Speaker 2: foot five and like big and is always trying to
Speaker 2: not be in the way, And it comes through so
Speaker 2: perfectly in those few scenes that we get. Well.
Speaker 4: I like that because again, like this isn't even political,
Speaker 4: it's more cultural, but just placing it in the conversation,
Speaker 4: Like I think one of the ideas that's most debated
Speaker 4: right now in our culture, and it is essential to
Speaker 4: any conversation with superheroes is as essential that any conversation
Speaker 4: about superheroes is masculinity and are what are what does
Speaker 4: a mask?
Speaker 6: And role model look like, and I, yeah, I'm really excited.
Speaker 4: To have you know, the Superman often gets put on
Speaker 4: lists of like non toxic ideas of masculinity, you know,
Speaker 4: and that that kind of like, yes, I have all
Speaker 4: this size, but I'm not here to take up space
Speaker 4: and to claim my authority. I'm here to try and
Speaker 4: make space for others. Seems really important for that. I
Speaker 4: want us to go too much longer. She've already were
Speaker 4: coming up on an hour, but Jessica, I do want
Speaker 4: to give you a chance to talk about one the
Speaker 4: name that I've not heard you say yet that I
Speaker 4: know is so essential, Lois Lane.
Speaker 2: Really as just thinking that when you were talking about
Speaker 2: like masculinity and gender roles, I was like, we haven't
Speaker 2: talked about Lois. We really don't get a lot of
Speaker 2: her in the trailer. Like we see her, you know,
Speaker 2: looking at Clerk in the office and there's a bit
Speaker 2: with them flying and kissing, and that's great. I like
Speaker 2: it when she's looking at him in the office and
Speaker 2: kissing him. I do think that the casting is really good.
Speaker 2: I think anybody who was playing her, it's Rachel Brosnahan
Speaker 2: from The Marvelous Missus Mazelle and anyone who can talk
Speaker 2: that fast. I mean, that's the that's the biggest hurdle
Speaker 2: to overcome with a Lois I I'm I am hopeful.
Speaker 2: I do think by and large, we tend to get
Speaker 2: pretty solid Lois is m hm in adaptations. More so,
Speaker 2: like sometimes the I think all the actors have been
Speaker 2: good across the board, both Clark and Lois. But I
Speaker 2: think the writing with Lois doesn't fall into the same
Speaker 2: pitfalls that the writing for Clark does. So I I
Speaker 2: I feel good about this. I'm I'm excited. I I
Speaker 2: love Lois I you know, saying to somebody the other day.
Speaker 2: In the comic stories, the two characters who are always
Speaker 2: on the right side of history whenever, like the superheroes
Speaker 2: are fighting each other, like you're in a dystopian universe
Speaker 2: where superheroes are evil or outlaw or whatever, blah blah blah,
Speaker 2: any of these the two characters who are always on
Speaker 2: the right side of history, Green Arrow and Lois Lane.
Speaker 2: It's not necessarily a thing that we've seen with adaptations
Speaker 2: of Green Arrow so far, so we want to talk
Speaker 2: about that. But like Lois Lane is in some ways
Speaker 2: even more than Superman, like a beacon of what is
Speaker 2: true and righteous, right, and I I hope she gets
Speaker 2: to be difficult and messy and eviscerate people who are
Speaker 2: getting in.
Speaker 5: Her way and in a different way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that's so vital on it.
Speaker 4: There was some other episode we've done, I remember which one,
Speaker 4: because we've had Jessica and talk about Superman a lot,
Speaker 4: for clearly very good reasons, because you're an authority and
Speaker 4: have so much great to say. But there's one in
Speaker 4: which you described Lois as I was saying, like there's
Speaker 4: lowest does lowest hit into like negative stereotypes of the
Speaker 4: damsel in distress? And I'm not gonna exactly quote you
Speaker 4: don't mind the s words. What you basically said was
Speaker 4: that she's not a damsel in distress. She's just a
Speaker 4: person who already was a like damn the torpedoes, I'm
Speaker 4: gonna do what I think is right, and now has
Speaker 4: just developed this ridiculous sense of overconfidence of I don't
Speaker 4: care what stupid risks I take, because this guy in
Speaker 4: a cape is always gonna save me. So I'm going
Speaker 4: to do anything and everything to get the story, And
Speaker 4: who cares what happens, you know, and she's right, yeah, and.
Speaker 6: Like that looked.
Speaker 4: It can look like a damsel in distress if you're
Speaker 4: not actually paying attention. But it really is so different,
Speaker 4: and I hope that again this movie captures that attitude.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there's the bit in I think it's
Speaker 2: might only be in the the Donner edit of Superman two.
Speaker 2: I can't remember where she jumps out the window because
Speaker 2: she's like, Superman will save me and he does. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then there's also the scene where she dives into
Speaker 2: Niagara Falls, which I think is then final edit of them.
Speaker 2: I don't remember. She's jumping out of a lot of
Speaker 2: windows to prove a lot of things that happens on
Speaker 2: My Adventures Superman too. It's it is not I mean,
Speaker 2: it is foolhardiness, and I kind of like that, but
Speaker 2: it was also absolute confidence both in her abilities, including
Speaker 2: her own mind, Like she knows that she's figured this
Speaker 2: out right, she knows that she's read Superman right, she
Speaker 2: knows what he will do and she's right. And it's
Speaker 2: also total faith in him right.
Speaker 4: And it's not in the like oohho, my big shown
Speaker 4: boyfriend will save me. It's very much like yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 4: My underlings are gonna make my coffee just right. My
Speaker 4: underlings are gonna drive me or I need to go,
Speaker 4: and minder things are gonna save me when I fall
Speaker 4: out window.
Speaker 2: Jimmy gets her coffee and Clark catches her. Those are
Speaker 2: their jobs.
Speaker 6: I love it.
Speaker 4: And then the last thing is if you want to say,
Speaker 4: if we're gonna go into some bonus member content, we're
Speaker 4: gonna talk a little bit about some other stuff coming
Speaker 4: up next year. Jessica's just written an article over on
Speaker 4: book Riot that we will link you guys to and
Speaker 4: give you a chance to check out, but also to
Speaker 4: we'll talk about that also. Of course, if you want
Speaker 4: to become a member, it's only five dollars a month,
Speaker 4: fifty five dollars a year. We're talking about all sorts
Speaker 4: of new things we're gonna start doing for members, including
Speaker 4: having your own bonus members bonus episodes, full episodes only
Speaker 4: for members. We're gonna start with the first one this month,
Speaker 4: so that's gonna be happening. Of course, you could add
Speaker 4: free episodes other kind of great things. But before we
Speaker 4: do that, Riki, first, any of the last things you
Speaker 4: want to say about this Superman trailer and this movie
Speaker 4: coming out.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I scrolled way down the cast list and I
Speaker 5: found a character listed that Jessica mentioned earlier, eve test Maker,
Speaker 5: which is an interesting choice, a very Gunnion choice, if
Speaker 5: you will, because I think most this is Lex Luthor's
Speaker 5: female assistant, and I feel like most modern incarnations of
Speaker 5: luth Or have Mercy the bodyguard Valet sometimes like replacements
Speaker 5: Ceo a Lex Score. So using test Maker is an
Speaker 5: interesting choice and I'm interested to see how it plays out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, it's a very James gun choice.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because test Maker is like Mercy Is.
Speaker 4: I think you listed test Maker isss Testmcker is much
Speaker 4: more like the nineteen fifties secretary type, ye, at least
Speaker 4: from what I know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like they, she and Otis will often turn
Speaker 2: up in the comics these days, a sort of easter eggs.
Speaker 2: They're not really like characters who do a lot of stuff,
Speaker 2: but like you know, if Lex's barking orders at somebody
Speaker 2: off panel, it's one of them, or like they might
Speaker 2: be like where's the secret warehouse where Lex has the
Speaker 2: Doom's Day device? Oh, it's on Otis Street. Like there's
Speaker 2: a lot ofway references like that, but you can't see
Speaker 2: them in adaptations anymore.
Speaker 5: And for me specifically, it's the she's listed, but I
Speaker 5: can't find a casting for a Mercy, so it's like
Speaker 5: it seemed that seems like a deliberate choice between the two.
Speaker 6: Interesting.
Speaker 4: Well, that'll be nice, because I mean, the main thing
Speaker 4: I know her from is the Christopher Reevedonnner movies, in
Speaker 4: which I would say she does not come out very well.
Speaker 6: She instead, she's.
Speaker 4: Like, oh, Superman's really cute, and my mother might I
Speaker 4: think she's not like an aunt in California who's gonna
Speaker 4: die in Lex Luthor's plan, And so she winds up
Speaker 4: betraying Lex to Superman and helps rescue him, and it's cute.
Speaker 4: But it also seems motivated a lot by the fact
Speaker 4: that you know, Christopher Reeves is a not bad looking guy,
Speaker 4: which I felt like, let's do a little more of
Speaker 4: the character. So yeah, that'd be fun. All right, Well,
Speaker 4: that thank you both so much. I've learned a lot, audience.
Speaker 4: I hope you've learned a lot. We'd love to hear
Speaker 4: what you think. Let us know your thoughts for the
Speaker 4: COmON movie. We'll definitely have Jessica back when the movie
Speaker 4: comes out, but till then, thank you so much.
Speaker 6: We have spoken