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<v Speaker 1>It's Hey No.

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<v Speaker 2>Five right now, fifty five KRCD talk station and looking

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<v Speaker 2>forward to this moment all morning. It is a distinct

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<v Speaker 2>pleasure to welcome one of my op ed here is

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<v Speaker 2>over the Wall Street Journal, Jason Riley. He's a fellow

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<v Speaker 2>at the Manhattan Institute and columnist for the Wall Street Journal.

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<v Speaker 2>He's been writing in The Wall Street Journal about politics, economics, education, immigration,

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<v Speaker 2>and social inequality for a couple of decades plus. He

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<v Speaker 2>is the author of multiple books, including Please Stop Helping Us,

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<v Speaker 2>How Liberals make it Harder for Blacks to Succeed, as

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<v Speaker 2>well as Maverick, a biography of Thomas Sole, another hero

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<v Speaker 2>of mine. Welcome to the fifty five krc Morning Show,

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<v Speaker 2>Jason Riley. It's a pleasure to have you taught on

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<v Speaker 2>the program to talk about your new book, The Affirmative Action,

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<v Speaker 2>myth why Blacks don't need racial preferences to succeed.

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<v Speaker 1>Good morning, Thank you for having me, Thank you, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you for doing such a wonderful job with your

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<v Speaker 2>columns on the Wall Street Journal. I always look forward

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<v Speaker 2>to reading what you have to say. It's a very

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<v Speaker 2>very well logical, reasonable and always makes great deal of sense.

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<v Speaker 2>So thanks for what you're doing, and also for writing

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<v Speaker 2>the book about another hero of mine, Thomas Soule. I

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<v Speaker 2>had the privilege of interviewing Thomas soul as well as

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<v Speaker 2>waltere Williams, who I do believe both commented on or

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<v Speaker 2>have written articles about the topic of your book, the

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<v Speaker 2>empirical data. Yeah, I mean, is that where you were

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<v Speaker 2>inspired to write this? Perhaps?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, much of my journalistic career and book writing career

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<v Speaker 1>has been inspired by both of those guys, both heroes

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<v Speaker 1>of mine. So yes, their writings, their research not only

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<v Speaker 1>informs this book, but informs a lot of my.

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<v Speaker 2>Journalism well their lived experience as well. I remember, I

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<v Speaker 2>believe it was Walter Williams talking about his childhood, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and he grew up in an era where there was

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<v Speaker 2>no affirmative action, there was no you know, great society programs,

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<v Speaker 2>and he ended up doing quite well himself.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, both he and and Seul have pointed out the

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<v Speaker 1>differences in their childhood in terms of black advancement. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's one of the things I point out in this book.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, the great myth that I mentioned in the

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<v Speaker 1>title is the myth that blacks need affirmative action, they

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<v Speaker 1>need special preferences. They need set asides and quotas to

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<v Speaker 1>get ahead in society, and that without affirmative action, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there would be no black middle class, or there would

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<v Speaker 1>be no blacks and higher education or in the skilled professions.

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<v Speaker 1>And that just isn't true. And you're right, both Slul

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<v Speaker 1>and Williams, and as I point out in the book,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of data to back that up. For example,

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<v Speaker 1>between nineteen forty and nineteen sixty, the black poverty rate

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<v Speaker 1>fell from eighty seven percent to forty seven percent. That's

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<v Speaker 1>a forty point drop. There was no affirmative action during

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<v Speaker 1>that period. That was before the Civil Rights Act of

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<v Speaker 1>sixty four, the Voting Rights Act of sixty five. It

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<v Speaker 1>was before a black present or before blacks any kind

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<v Speaker 1>of real political clout in this country in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>running large cities with large black populations. A forty point

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<v Speaker 1>drop in the black poverty rate, and so people look

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<v Speaker 1>at the black middle class today and say, oh, that's

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<v Speaker 1>a product of affirmative action. No, it isn't. Black people

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<v Speaker 1>lifted themselves out of poverty well before there was racial

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<v Speaker 1>favoritism leaning in their favor. If anything, they did it

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<v Speaker 1>when there was racial favoritism in the other direction.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's certainly demonstrated by the numbers. And we

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<v Speaker 2>all know that period of time in the nation's history,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, with a Jim Crow Law still in place

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<v Speaker 2>in some areas, and separate but not equal schooling and

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<v Speaker 2>things like that, they were still able to make great

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<v Speaker 2>advances in economic prosperity as well. But how much of

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<v Speaker 2>this shift the problems facing the black community do you

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<v Speaker 2>connect with the well, the disintegration of the nuclear family.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh quite a bit, quite a bit. In fact, you

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<v Speaker 1>can see all of these trends, whether it's climbing out

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<v Speaker 1>of poverty, greater black incomes, greater Black educational attainment, greater

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<v Speaker 1>Black movement into the middle class professions, all of those things.

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<v Speaker 1>You saw a black white convergence happening in the forties

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<v Speaker 1>and the fifties and the sixties, and right toward the

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<v Speaker 1>end of the nineteen sixties, right around the Great Society

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<v Speaker 1>Programs under Johnson, when they kick in, you start to

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<v Speaker 1>see these trends stall or in some cases even reverse course.

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<v Speaker 1>And one of them is the rise in incomes relative

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<v Speaker 1>to white incomes that was growing in a very fast

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<v Speaker 1>clip prior to the late nineteen sixties. And one of

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<v Speaker 1>the reasons it stalls is because you start to see

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<v Speaker 1>a proliferation of single black families in the late sixties,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's very hard for a single parent family to

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<v Speaker 1>compete economically with a two parent family, and so that

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<v Speaker 1>black white convergence seems to starts to stall around this period,

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<v Speaker 1>and that is what has plagued a lot of black

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<v Speaker 1>progress since the late nineteen sixties. And notwithstanding affirmative action,

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<v Speaker 1>is this breakdown of the black family and a welfare

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<v Speaker 1>state that subsidizes you know, anti social behavior, counterproductive habits,

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<v Speaker 1>and so forth. And so that's been a huge, huge

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<v Speaker 1>problem that doesn't get nearly enough.

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<v Speaker 2>Attention, No it doesn't. And you know, just the simple

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<v Speaker 2>absence of a father in a child's life I think

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<v Speaker 2>has a profound impact. I mean, I'm blessed that I

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<v Speaker 2>was able to grow up in a full family. I

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<v Speaker 2>had a dad that was always there, you know, sort

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<v Speaker 2>of the well, the guy who laid down the law

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<v Speaker 2>when you got out of hand, you know, that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of thing. It's the importance of that father figure. You're

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<v Speaker 2>providing an example, an illustration of the value of hard work,

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<v Speaker 2>getting up in every day and helping to put food

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<v Speaker 2>on the table. I mean, whether or not the man

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<v Speaker 2>makes a whole lot of money, just the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>that person is there being an inspiration, I think is

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<v Speaker 2>really it's just a terrible loss for many families.

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<v Speaker 1>Right And as late as the early nineteen sixties, two

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<v Speaker 1>out of three black children were being raised in a

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<v Speaker 1>home with a mother and a father. Today seventy percent

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<v Speaker 1>or not. And that's a huge, huge problem for all

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<v Speaker 1>the reasons you just stated. We know the litany of

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<v Speaker 1>problems that are associated with single parent homes, from you know,

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<v Speaker 1>involvement in the criminal justice system, more likelihood of that

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<v Speaker 1>not finishing school, involvement in drug and alcohol abuse and

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<v Speaker 1>so forth, and becoming a single parent yourself. All of

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<v Speaker 1>those things are detrimental to upward mobility. And I used

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<v Speaker 1>to say back when when President Obama was in the

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<v Speaker 1>White House, I'd say, you know, that's great, that's a

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<v Speaker 1>great symbolic victory for Black America and for America in general.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's far more important to have a black man

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<v Speaker 1>in the home than in the white House.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a good point. Well, And I guess I wonder

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<v Speaker 2>why we continue down the same path. If anyone were

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about removing some of these programs. And I

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<v Speaker 2>know the Supreme Court recently ruled that, you know, race

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<v Speaker 2>based college emissions is unconstitutionals. That's supposed as a step

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<v Speaker 2>in the right direction toward a meritocracy. But we have

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<v Speaker 2>generational welfare dependency. There's almost an expectation that, well, you're

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<v Speaker 2>going to grow up and you're going to be on welfare.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, the programs haven't worked. That your evidence, your

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<v Speaker 2>empirical data that you point out in your book, Affirmative

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<v Speaker 2>Action myth shows that we haven't made any progress. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>that there has been regression. So how is it that

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<v Speaker 2>people who are interested in serving the black community and

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<v Speaker 2>really wanting to help and get people elevated out of

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<v Speaker 2>property keep barking up the same tree.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, and it's you know, right now, we see that

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<v Speaker 1>as a bipartisan problem. You look at this fight over

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<v Speaker 1>over Medicaid reform, where you have even Republicans who are

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<v Speaker 1>reluctant to put in place work requirements. We have a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of able bodied adults, able bodied men, working age

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<v Speaker 1>men receiving welfare benefits and no one wants to touch this,

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<v Speaker 1>these entitlement programs, and it's a shame. Obviously, the reform

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<v Speaker 1>would would renown to the benefit of a disproportionate number

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<v Speaker 1>of blacks, but it would help the poor in general.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, if you're going to pay people not to work,

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to get more people not working. We know that,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's what we continue continue to do, and so

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<v Speaker 1>I'd like to see this reform I think would be

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<v Speaker 1>a huge step for the country. But we've really got

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<v Speaker 1>to get you both parties involved, because there still seems

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<v Speaker 1>to be a third rail in our in our political system.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Jason Riley off of the book, we're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>the affirmative action myth why blacks don't need racial preferences

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<v Speaker 2>to succeed. Going back to the work requirement, and I've

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<v Speaker 2>been screaming about this now since they started bickering over

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<v Speaker 2>whether or not through heavi work requirement. We're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>able bodied people without any physical problems, that do not

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<v Speaker 2>have children in the home. These are folks that could

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<v Speaker 2>easily with that mandated hour twenty hours a week or

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<v Speaker 2>eighty hours a month, get education. In the trades. There

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<v Speaker 2>are millions of jobs in the trades out there. This

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<v Speaker 2>is a way to lift someone up out of poverty

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<v Speaker 2>permanently because well, guess what, They're going to have a job.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly, And the job is the best anti poverty

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<v Speaker 1>program out there. If you know, i'n't seen intact. Family

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<v Speaker 1>is also an anti poverty program. Indeed, so is a job.

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<v Speaker 2>So as a job, I wish there are more people

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<v Speaker 2>preaching your message there, Jason Riley. And the other thing

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<v Speaker 2>that I I you know, I am not black, I

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<v Speaker 2>know you are, but you know, I express insult on

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<v Speaker 2>behalf of every black person out there when I see

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<v Speaker 2>these these folks screaming in the streets about like, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>saying a voter ID requirement is racist or fill in

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<v Speaker 2>the blank is racist. And I'm thinking to myself, how

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<v Speaker 2>what an insult to every block back person out there.

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<v Speaker 2>They're saying out loud that you are incapable of performing

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<v Speaker 2>such a simple task as getting a driver's license. I

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<v Speaker 2>mean your reaction to something like that, Jason, Well.

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<v Speaker 1>It's an example. It's like affirmative action, a voter ID, laws,

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<v Speaker 1>school choice. These are issues where when you pull blacks

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<v Speaker 1>in general, you get one response, and when you pull

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<v Speaker 1>black elites and civil rights activists and so forth, you

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<v Speaker 1>get a different response. So the Black public in general

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<v Speaker 1>supports voter id laws, they support school choice, and they

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<v Speaker 1>oppose affirmative action. Black elites are on the other side

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<v Speaker 1>of every one of those issues. And I blame my

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<v Speaker 1>profession somewhat the media for running to these elites, running

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<v Speaker 1>to the Black Lives Matter activists, the NAACP folks, and

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<v Speaker 1>so forth, to express opinion on behalf of all Black people,

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<v Speaker 1>when in fact they do not represent most Black people.

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<v Speaker 1>They simply represent themselves. An affirmative action is yet another

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<v Speaker 1>example of that. Most Blacks, along with most of the country,

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<v Speaker 1>supported that Supreme Court decision ending race based college admissions,

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<v Speaker 1>even if the black elites did not well.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's another point you make in your book, The

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<v Speaker 2>taints Black achievement When you have someone out there who

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<v Speaker 2>is brilliant or smart, or demonstrably has the merit to

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<v Speaker 2>fill any position and they end up getting employed and

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<v Speaker 2>they're looked at with like a Jaundysteinm's suspicion is that, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>how did you really get the job? Was it through

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<v Speaker 2>an affirmative action program or you a diversity higher or

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<v Speaker 2>do you really have the skill sets necessary to compete

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<v Speaker 2>with the rest of us out there? And that's a

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<v Speaker 2>terrible thing that you have to walk around with thinking

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<v Speaker 2>that perception is out in the world.

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<v Speaker 1>Jason, Yes, it is. No one wants to be the

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<v Speaker 1>token and campus or in the workforce, and so yes,

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<v Speaker 1>that is a problem. In the Supreme Court decision, the

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<v Speaker 1>majority opinion talked about the stereotyping that is associated with

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<v Speaker 1>affirmative action. It also sets up smart kids to fail.

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<v Speaker 1>And what I mean by that is that you most

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<v Speaker 1>of these black kids that are admitted to say a

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<v Speaker 1>Duke or Harvard or a Cornell, with lower test scores

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<v Speaker 1>than the average white student on campus are still scoring

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<v Speaker 1>well above the national average. They're just not scoring as

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<v Speaker 1>high as their peers at those elite institutions. And so

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<v Speaker 1>they're struggling at those elite institutions. They're dropping out at

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<v Speaker 1>higher rates. They're pooling at the bottom of the class

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<v Speaker 1>where they would be thriving at a less selective institution.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, what is the point of flunking out of

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<v Speaker 1>Michigan instead of graduating from Michigan State. They're flunking out

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<v Speaker 1>of North Carolina instead of graduating from North Carolina State.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's what we've had systematically happening over the past

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<v Speaker 1>fifty years of affirmative action. You have black you have

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<v Speaker 1>white kids and Asian kids matched with schools that fit

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<v Speaker 1>their preparation. You have black kids funneled into schools where

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<v Speaker 1>they are not prepared and struggle just because these college

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<v Speaker 1>campuses want racial balance or they want a college catalog

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<v Speaker 1>that looks like America. And I think that's wrong. These

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<v Speaker 1>kids are being used and I'm glad that the Supreme

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<v Speaker 1>Court ruled the way.

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<v Speaker 2>That it did, as am I Jason Riley, and let

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<v Speaker 2>me just pick your rain briefly in the marineing moment

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<v Speaker 2>we have here the idea of this, I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>if it's in the name of DEI or what the

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<v Speaker 2>education system. I think the public education system seems to

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<v Speaker 2>be failing our children miserably. And you can see it

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<v Speaker 2>in cities like Baltimore, in Chicago where you have a

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<v Speaker 2>predominantly black classroom, but them advancing children to the next

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<v Speaker 2>grade level even though they demonstrate they don't demonstrate adequate

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<v Speaker 2>grade level proficiency, which just sets them up for failure

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<v Speaker 2>in the next grade. If you don't have the foundation

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<v Speaker 2>for the next grade level material, you can't succeed moving forward.

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<v Speaker 2>This is something that is in profound need of being fixed. Jason,

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<v Speaker 2>your thoughts.

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<v Speaker 1>You're right, and I mean, I'm writing a book about

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<v Speaker 1>affirmative action that talks about what we should do at

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<v Speaker 1>the college level. But you're right, this is really a

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<v Speaker 1>K through twelve problem that cannot be fixed when someone

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<v Speaker 1>sits down to take the SAT score at age eighteen.

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<v Speaker 1>This is something we need to address early. And the

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<v Speaker 1>sad part is that we have the education models out

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<v Speaker 1>there to help the most disadvantaged kids. They're culture arter schools,

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<v Speaker 1>they're called vouchers, they're called tax credits. They work, they

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<v Speaker 1>work especially well for low income minority kids. And yet

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<v Speaker 1>you have a public school system controlled by teachers unions

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<v Speaker 1>and they block those reforms. They want failing schools to

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<v Speaker 1>stay open because those schools are still providing good jobs

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<v Speaker 1>for the adults. That's why those schools stay open. But

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<v Speaker 1>I'm more concerned about them failing the kids, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think those schools should close. So yes, the school choice

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<v Speaker 1>that we really need is at the K through twelve level,

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<v Speaker 1>and if we got it, it would obviate the need

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<v Speaker 1>for affirmative action and higher education.

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<v Speaker 2>Amen, Jason Riley, A distinct pleasure to have you on

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<v Speaker 2>my program. Always looking forward to your columns on the

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<v Speaker 2>Wall Street Journal and of course the affirmative action myth

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<v Speaker 2>why blocks don't need racial preference to succeed. Your book

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<v Speaker 2>is on my blog page and my listeners can easily

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<v Speaker 2>get a copy of it. Keep up the great work, sir.

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<v Speaker 2>It was again a pleasure having you on my program

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<v Speaker 2>this morning.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much.