Speaker 1: It's Hey No.
Speaker 2: Five right now, fifty five KRCD talk station and looking
Speaker 2: forward to this moment all morning. It is a distinct
Speaker 2: pleasure to welcome one of my op ed here is
Speaker 2: over the Wall Street Journal, Jason Riley. He's a fellow
Speaker 2: at the Manhattan Institute and columnist for the Wall Street Journal.
Speaker 2: He's been writing in The Wall Street Journal about politics, economics, education, immigration,
Speaker 2: and social inequality for a couple of decades plus. He
Speaker 2: is the author of multiple books, including Please Stop Helping Us,
Speaker 2: How Liberals make it Harder for Blacks to Succeed, as
Speaker 2: well as Maverick, a biography of Thomas Sole, another hero
Speaker 2: of mine. Welcome to the fifty five krc Morning Show,
Speaker 2: Jason Riley. It's a pleasure to have you taught on
Speaker 2: the program to talk about your new book, The Affirmative Action,
Speaker 2: myth why Blacks don't need racial preferences to succeed.
Speaker 1: Good morning, Thank you for having me, Thank you, and.
Speaker 2: Thank you for doing such a wonderful job with your
Speaker 2: columns on the Wall Street Journal. I always look forward
Speaker 2: to reading what you have to say. It's a very
Speaker 2: very well logical, reasonable and always makes great deal of sense.
Speaker 2: So thanks for what you're doing, and also for writing
Speaker 2: the book about another hero of mine, Thomas Soule. I
Speaker 2: had the privilege of interviewing Thomas soul as well as
Speaker 2: waltere Williams, who I do believe both commented on or
Speaker 2: have written articles about the topic of your book, the
Speaker 2: empirical data. Yeah, I mean, is that where you were
Speaker 2: inspired to write this? Perhaps?
Speaker 1: Well, much of my journalistic career and book writing career
Speaker 1: has been inspired by both of those guys, both heroes
Speaker 1: of mine. So yes, their writings, their research not only
Speaker 1: informs this book, but informs a lot of my.
Speaker 2: Journalism well their lived experience as well. I remember, I
Speaker 2: believe it was Walter Williams talking about his childhood, you know,
Speaker 2: and he grew up in an era where there was
Speaker 2: no affirmative action, there was no you know, great society programs,
Speaker 2: and he ended up doing quite well himself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, both he and and Seul have pointed out the
Speaker 1: differences in their childhood in terms of black advancement. And
Speaker 1: that's one of the things I point out in this book.
Speaker 1: I mean, the great myth that I mentioned in the
Speaker 1: title is the myth that blacks need affirmative action, they
Speaker 1: need special preferences. They need set asides and quotas to
Speaker 1: get ahead in society, and that without affirmative action, you know,
Speaker 1: there would be no black middle class, or there would
Speaker 1: be no blacks and higher education or in the skilled professions.
Speaker 1: And that just isn't true. And you're right, both Slul
Speaker 1: and Williams, and as I point out in the book,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of data to back that up. For example,
Speaker 1: between nineteen forty and nineteen sixty, the black poverty rate
Speaker 1: fell from eighty seven percent to forty seven percent. That's
Speaker 1: a forty point drop. There was no affirmative action during
Speaker 1: that period. That was before the Civil Rights Act of
Speaker 1: sixty four, the Voting Rights Act of sixty five. It
Speaker 1: was before a black present or before blacks any kind
Speaker 1: of real political clout in this country in terms of
Speaker 1: running large cities with large black populations. A forty point
Speaker 1: drop in the black poverty rate, and so people look
Speaker 1: at the black middle class today and say, oh, that's
Speaker 1: a product of affirmative action. No, it isn't. Black people
Speaker 1: lifted themselves out of poverty well before there was racial
Speaker 1: favoritism leaning in their favor. If anything, they did it
Speaker 1: when there was racial favoritism in the other direction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's certainly demonstrated by the numbers. And we
Speaker 2: all know that period of time in the nation's history,
Speaker 2: you know, with a Jim Crow Law still in place
Speaker 2: in some areas, and separate but not equal schooling and
Speaker 2: things like that, they were still able to make great
Speaker 2: advances in economic prosperity as well. But how much of
Speaker 2: this shift the problems facing the black community do you
Speaker 2: connect with the well, the disintegration of the nuclear family.
Speaker 1: Oh quite a bit, quite a bit. In fact, you
Speaker 1: can see all of these trends, whether it's climbing out
Speaker 1: of poverty, greater black incomes, greater Black educational attainment, greater
Speaker 1: Black movement into the middle class professions, all of those things.
Speaker 1: You saw a black white convergence happening in the forties
Speaker 1: and the fifties and the sixties, and right toward the
Speaker 1: end of the nineteen sixties, right around the Great Society
Speaker 1: Programs under Johnson, when they kick in, you start to
Speaker 1: see these trends stall or in some cases even reverse course.
Speaker 1: And one of them is the rise in incomes relative
Speaker 1: to white incomes that was growing in a very fast
Speaker 1: clip prior to the late nineteen sixties. And one of
Speaker 1: the reasons it stalls is because you start to see
Speaker 1: a proliferation of single black families in the late sixties,
Speaker 1: and it's very hard for a single parent family to
Speaker 1: compete economically with a two parent family, and so that
Speaker 1: black white convergence seems to starts to stall around this period,
Speaker 1: and that is what has plagued a lot of black
Speaker 1: progress since the late nineteen sixties. And notwithstanding affirmative action,
Speaker 1: is this breakdown of the black family and a welfare
Speaker 1: state that subsidizes you know, anti social behavior, counterproductive habits,
Speaker 1: and so forth. And so that's been a huge, huge
Speaker 1: problem that doesn't get nearly enough.
Speaker 2: Attention, No it doesn't. And you know, just the simple
Speaker 2: absence of a father in a child's life I think
Speaker 2: has a profound impact. I mean, I'm blessed that I
Speaker 2: was able to grow up in a full family. I
Speaker 2: had a dad that was always there, you know, sort
Speaker 2: of the well, the guy who laid down the law
Speaker 2: when you got out of hand, you know, that kind
Speaker 2: of thing. It's the importance of that father figure. You're
Speaker 2: providing an example, an illustration of the value of hard work,
Speaker 2: getting up in every day and helping to put food
Speaker 2: on the table. I mean, whether or not the man
Speaker 2: makes a whole lot of money, just the fact that
Speaker 2: that person is there being an inspiration, I think is
Speaker 2: really it's just a terrible loss for many families.
Speaker 1: Right And as late as the early nineteen sixties, two
Speaker 1: out of three black children were being raised in a
Speaker 1: home with a mother and a father. Today seventy percent
Speaker 1: or not. And that's a huge, huge problem for all
Speaker 1: the reasons you just stated. We know the litany of
Speaker 1: problems that are associated with single parent homes, from you know,
Speaker 1: involvement in the criminal justice system, more likelihood of that
Speaker 1: not finishing school, involvement in drug and alcohol abuse and
Speaker 1: so forth, and becoming a single parent yourself. All of
Speaker 1: those things are detrimental to upward mobility. And I used
Speaker 1: to say back when when President Obama was in the
Speaker 1: White House, I'd say, you know, that's great, that's a
Speaker 1: great symbolic victory for Black America and for America in general.
Speaker 1: But it's far more important to have a black man
Speaker 1: in the home than in the white House.
Speaker 2: That's a good point. Well, And I guess I wonder
Speaker 2: why we continue down the same path. If anyone were
Speaker 2: to talk about removing some of these programs. And I
Speaker 2: know the Supreme Court recently ruled that, you know, race
Speaker 2: based college emissions is unconstitutionals. That's supposed as a step
Speaker 2: in the right direction toward a meritocracy. But we have
Speaker 2: generational welfare dependency. There's almost an expectation that, well, you're
Speaker 2: going to grow up and you're going to be on welfare.
Speaker 2: I mean, the programs haven't worked. That your evidence, your
Speaker 2: empirical data that you point out in your book, Affirmative
Speaker 2: Action myth shows that we haven't made any progress. In fact,
Speaker 2: that there has been regression. So how is it that
Speaker 2: people who are interested in serving the black community and
Speaker 2: really wanting to help and get people elevated out of
Speaker 2: property keep barking up the same tree.
Speaker 1: Yes, and it's you know, right now, we see that
Speaker 1: as a bipartisan problem. You look at this fight over
Speaker 1: over Medicaid reform, where you have even Republicans who are
Speaker 1: reluctant to put in place work requirements. We have a
Speaker 1: lot of able bodied adults, able bodied men, working age
Speaker 1: men receiving welfare benefits and no one wants to touch this,
Speaker 1: these entitlement programs, and it's a shame. Obviously, the reform
Speaker 1: would would renown to the benefit of a disproportionate number
Speaker 1: of blacks, but it would help the poor in general.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're going to pay people not to work,
Speaker 1: you're going to get more people not working. We know that,
Speaker 1: and that's what we continue continue to do, and so
Speaker 1: I'd like to see this reform I think would be
Speaker 1: a huge step for the country. But we've really got
Speaker 1: to get you both parties involved, because there still seems
Speaker 1: to be a third rail in our in our political system.
Speaker 2: Well, Jason Riley off of the book, we're talking about
Speaker 2: the affirmative action myth why blacks don't need racial preferences
Speaker 2: to succeed. Going back to the work requirement, and I've
Speaker 2: been screaming about this now since they started bickering over
Speaker 2: whether or not through heavi work requirement. We're talking about
Speaker 2: able bodied people without any physical problems, that do not
Speaker 2: have children in the home. These are folks that could
Speaker 2: easily with that mandated hour twenty hours a week or
Speaker 2: eighty hours a month, get education. In the trades. There
Speaker 2: are millions of jobs in the trades out there. This
Speaker 2: is a way to lift someone up out of poverty
Speaker 2: permanently because well, guess what, They're going to have a job.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, And the job is the best anti poverty
Speaker 1: program out there. If you know, i'n't seen intact. Family
Speaker 1: is also an anti poverty program. Indeed, so is a job.
Speaker 2: So as a job, I wish there are more people
Speaker 2: preaching your message there, Jason Riley. And the other thing
Speaker 2: that I I you know, I am not black, I
Speaker 2: know you are, but you know, I express insult on
Speaker 2: behalf of every black person out there when I see
Speaker 2: these these folks screaming in the streets about like, for example,
Speaker 2: saying a voter ID requirement is racist or fill in
Speaker 2: the blank is racist. And I'm thinking to myself, how
Speaker 2: what an insult to every block back person out there.
Speaker 2: They're saying out loud that you are incapable of performing
Speaker 2: such a simple task as getting a driver's license. I
Speaker 2: mean your reaction to something like that, Jason, Well.
Speaker 1: It's an example. It's like affirmative action, a voter ID, laws,
Speaker 1: school choice. These are issues where when you pull blacks
Speaker 1: in general, you get one response, and when you pull
Speaker 1: black elites and civil rights activists and so forth, you
Speaker 1: get a different response. So the Black public in general
Speaker 1: supports voter id laws, they support school choice, and they
Speaker 1: oppose affirmative action. Black elites are on the other side
Speaker 1: of every one of those issues. And I blame my
Speaker 1: profession somewhat the media for running to these elites, running
Speaker 1: to the Black Lives Matter activists, the NAACP folks, and
Speaker 1: so forth, to express opinion on behalf of all Black people,
Speaker 1: when in fact they do not represent most Black people.
Speaker 1: They simply represent themselves. An affirmative action is yet another
Speaker 1: example of that. Most Blacks, along with most of the country,
Speaker 1: supported that Supreme Court decision ending race based college admissions,
Speaker 1: even if the black elites did not well.
Speaker 2: And that's another point you make in your book, The
Speaker 2: taints Black achievement When you have someone out there who
Speaker 2: is brilliant or smart, or demonstrably has the merit to
Speaker 2: fill any position and they end up getting employed and
Speaker 2: they're looked at with like a Jaundysteinm's suspicion is that, Okay,
Speaker 2: how did you really get the job? Was it through
Speaker 2: an affirmative action program or you a diversity higher or
Speaker 2: do you really have the skill sets necessary to compete
Speaker 2: with the rest of us out there? And that's a
Speaker 2: terrible thing that you have to walk around with thinking
Speaker 2: that perception is out in the world.
Speaker 1: Jason, Yes, it is. No one wants to be the
Speaker 1: token and campus or in the workforce, and so yes,
Speaker 1: that is a problem. In the Supreme Court decision, the
Speaker 1: majority opinion talked about the stereotyping that is associated with
Speaker 1: affirmative action. It also sets up smart kids to fail.
Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is that you most
Speaker 1: of these black kids that are admitted to say a
Speaker 1: Duke or Harvard or a Cornell, with lower test scores
Speaker 1: than the average white student on campus are still scoring
Speaker 1: well above the national average. They're just not scoring as
Speaker 1: high as their peers at those elite institutions. And so
Speaker 1: they're struggling at those elite institutions. They're dropping out at
Speaker 1: higher rates. They're pooling at the bottom of the class
Speaker 1: where they would be thriving at a less selective institution.
Speaker 1: I mean, what is the point of flunking out of
Speaker 1: Michigan instead of graduating from Michigan State. They're flunking out
Speaker 1: of North Carolina instead of graduating from North Carolina State.
Speaker 1: And that's what we've had systematically happening over the past
Speaker 1: fifty years of affirmative action. You have black you have
Speaker 1: white kids and Asian kids matched with schools that fit
Speaker 1: their preparation. You have black kids funneled into schools where
Speaker 1: they are not prepared and struggle just because these college
Speaker 1: campuses want racial balance or they want a college catalog
Speaker 1: that looks like America. And I think that's wrong. These
Speaker 1: kids are being used and I'm glad that the Supreme
Speaker 1: Court ruled the way.
Speaker 2: That it did, as am I Jason Riley, and let
Speaker 2: me just pick your rain briefly in the marineing moment
Speaker 2: we have here the idea of this, I don't know
Speaker 2: if it's in the name of DEI or what the
Speaker 2: education system. I think the public education system seems to
Speaker 2: be failing our children miserably. And you can see it
Speaker 2: in cities like Baltimore, in Chicago where you have a
Speaker 2: predominantly black classroom, but them advancing children to the next
Speaker 2: grade level even though they demonstrate they don't demonstrate adequate
Speaker 2: grade level proficiency, which just sets them up for failure
Speaker 2: in the next grade. If you don't have the foundation
Speaker 2: for the next grade level material, you can't succeed moving forward.
Speaker 2: This is something that is in profound need of being fixed. Jason,
Speaker 2: your thoughts.
Speaker 1: You're right, and I mean, I'm writing a book about
Speaker 1: affirmative action that talks about what we should do at
Speaker 1: the college level. But you're right, this is really a
Speaker 1: K through twelve problem that cannot be fixed when someone
Speaker 1: sits down to take the SAT score at age eighteen.
Speaker 1: This is something we need to address early. And the
Speaker 1: sad part is that we have the education models out
Speaker 1: there to help the most disadvantaged kids. They're culture arter schools,
Speaker 1: they're called vouchers, they're called tax credits. They work, they
Speaker 1: work especially well for low income minority kids. And yet
Speaker 1: you have a public school system controlled by teachers unions
Speaker 1: and they block those reforms. They want failing schools to
Speaker 1: stay open because those schools are still providing good jobs
Speaker 1: for the adults. That's why those schools stay open. But
Speaker 1: I'm more concerned about them failing the kids, and I
Speaker 1: think those schools should close. So yes, the school choice
Speaker 1: that we really need is at the K through twelve level,
Speaker 1: and if we got it, it would obviate the need
Speaker 1: for affirmative action and higher education.
Speaker 2: Amen, Jason Riley, A distinct pleasure to have you on
Speaker 2: my program. Always looking forward to your columns on the
Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal and of course the affirmative action myth
Speaker 2: why blocks don't need racial preference to succeed. Your book
Speaker 2: is on my blog page and my listeners can easily
Speaker 2: get a copy of it. Keep up the great work, sir.
Speaker 2: It was again a pleasure having you on my program
Speaker 2: this morning.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much.