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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome back to dot net Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin.
Speaker 3: And I'm Richard Campbell, episode two.
Speaker 2: Thousand and one. It's going to be good if I
Speaker 2: can live through it. As you can tell.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're still battling that cold, and of course a
Speaker 3: bit of time shifting. So the cold you may have
Speaker 3: heard a few weeks ago is the same cold. Yeah,
Speaker 3: in between, you know, there's been other shows. It's crazy.
Speaker 2: Uh, And I picked us up while I was in Seattle, right,
Speaker 2: So I'm not really sure you know how long it's
Speaker 2: going to take. But I know it's not the flu,
Speaker 2: and I know it's not COVID, So.
Speaker 3: There you go. Yeah, that's important. It's just a cold.
Speaker 3: It's just a springtime cold.
Speaker 2: It's a cold. It's gonna last for a while, and
Speaker 2: I hope I make it to the next gig.
Speaker 3: I hope so too. All right, we got more shows
Speaker 3: to record.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this being episode two thousand and one a Space Odyssey.
Speaker 2: Oh boy, let's talk about what happened in two thousand
Speaker 2: and one. The big one, Yeah, of course is September
Speaker 2: eleventh attacks. Yeah, not much we can say about that
Speaker 2: that hasn't already been said.
Speaker 3: No, I think it's it's all been said, but it
Speaker 3: overwhelms a whole lot of other news that went on there.
Speaker 3: That was also the year the Enron collapse. Mm hmm,
Speaker 3: you know that sort of accounting scandal and you know,
Speaker 3: company worth billions at the beginning of the year, by
Speaker 3: the end of the week year is bankrupting, gone and
Speaker 3: actually destroyed Arthur Anderson, like one of the largest accounting
Speaker 3: firms in the world, who was supposed to be the
Speaker 3: odded body that made sure that what they were saying
Speaker 3: was true and what they were saying was not true
Speaker 3: and so yeah, they literally were dismantled for it.
Speaker 2: And the war in Afghanistans started shortly thereafter nine to eleven.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Bush had just gotten into office, like it's yeah,
Speaker 3: remember when it started out like there was seemed to
Speaker 3: be like a conflict with China. There was the incident
Speaker 3: with the with the US aircraft and a fighter jet.
Speaker 3: It's like this, this is what's going on. And then
Speaker 3: of course in September hits and everything changes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, nasty. There's a lot of other international conflicts. I
Speaker 2: want to just mention the standoffs between Indian and Pakistan,
Speaker 2: continued violence in the Second Intifada, in the start of
Speaker 2: conflicts in Macedonia. Just I don't know, maybe this was
Speaker 2: a millennial angst kind of you know, come to fruition.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: This is all the fallout of the collapse of the
Speaker 3: of the Eastern Bloc, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, much, Yeah, go ahead. Let's talk about space and
Speaker 2: technology first.
Speaker 3: Javentin space. I think of importance in February when the
Speaker 3: near Shoemaker spacecraft, which has been orbiting around four thirty
Speaker 3: three arrows an asteroid, actually lands on the asteroid. No,
Speaker 3: it did not have landing gear, but gravity was so
Speaker 3: very low that it was able to maneuver precisely into
Speaker 3: this little saddle region and actually touch the asteroid successfully.
Speaker 3: That same month, the Atlantis Space Shuttle carries the Destinary
Speaker 3: Laboratory module to the International Space station, so this is
Speaker 3: the big one, the large module. The most interesting thing
Speaker 3: in that event is during this space walks to hook
Speaker 3: that module up, so they actually have to get it,
Speaker 3: go into their space suits, and go outside to hook
Speaker 3: up lines. On the outside, there's an ammonia leak and
Speaker 3: astronaut Robert Kirbeam ends up being covered in an inch
Speaker 3: of frozen ammonia, so he's outside the spaceship. He said, yeah,
Speaker 3: this is not good, and ammonia is quite toxic. They
Speaker 3: can't carry it into the space station now, so he's
Speaker 3: basically stuck out there for nineteen minutes for a full
Speaker 3: orbit until they get around into the Sun's side again,
Speaker 3: where the sun will evaporate all of the ammonia off
Speaker 3: of him, so he can't see things we take for granted,
Speaker 3: yes the sun. Now he's not stuck, he's not paralyzed
Speaker 3: in his suit or anything. It's just crystals covering him.
Speaker 3: So then they get him too the airlock and it's
Speaker 3: the old airlock because they haven't flown the new one
Speaker 3: yet so it's not very big and put him in
Speaker 3: the airlock pressurized it depressurized a couple times to try
Speaker 3: and blow all the ammonia that's left on him out
Speaker 3: before they actually get inside, and it turns out to
Speaker 3: be a non event. But for a moment there, the
Speaker 3: things were really serious. Yeah, following month, in March, the
Speaker 3: Mere space station is deorbited. This has been decided the
Speaker 3: following the previous year in November, the Russian Federation just
Speaker 3: did not have the money to operate both mir and
Speaker 3: the International Space Station requirements they had, plus, Mirror was
Speaker 3: very old at that point was a ten year space
Speaker 3: station that was now fifteen years old. In fact, the
Speaker 3: deorbit was delayed because of gyro failures on the mirrorment
Speaker 3: that they couldn't dock the progress booster to it to
Speaker 3: deorbit it, and they didn't want they It was already
Speaker 3: low enough that if they didn't boost it immediately it
Speaker 3: was going to deorbit by the end of March on
Speaker 3: its own, out of control a la sky Lab, and
Speaker 3: nobody wanted that. So instead they brought a progress booster
Speaker 3: up to it, and then in March deliberately drever it
Speaker 3: so that it came down near Fiji into the South
Speaker 3: Atlantic I mean sad, but also it was time, you know,
Speaker 3: these space stations don't last forever. They met the materials
Speaker 3: wear out, the equipment wear is out, and the design
Speaker 3: of those stations, the Russian design, a lot of those
Speaker 3: parts weren't replaceable. You just had to replace the whole module.
Speaker 3: So it just wasn't worthwhile. Plenty of Space Shuttle missions
Speaker 3: to the ISS to do resupply and so forth, including
Speaker 3: Chris Hadfield, the Canadian very famous now Fairies Game is
Speaker 3: Canadian astronaut. At the time, it was his first trip
Speaker 3: to the International Space Station and he would be the
Speaker 3: first Canadian spacewalker ever. He would later go on to
Speaker 3: command the space station.
Speaker 2: In the first person spaced David Bowie sung in space.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. Also, the Mars Odyssey mission was launched
Speaker 3: in April. This we'll get and we'll get to Mars
Speaker 3: in October, and it's one of the telemetry satellites and
Speaker 3: image surface map aerial mappers orbiters. The big airlock for
Speaker 3: the National Space Station arrives in July, the question joined
Speaker 3: airlock which is a lot more capacity. And also Dennis Tito,
Speaker 3: you remember Dennis Tito, now the first space tourist in
Speaker 3: April gets to the International Space Station when it's still
Speaker 3: pretty small, right on TM thirty two and he gets
Speaker 3: to spend eight days on the International Space Station. Very
Speaker 3: first space.
Speaker 2: I remember that, but I just didn't remember his name.
Speaker 3: His name is Tito. And yeah, more supply missions. Final
Speaker 3: thing I'll mention on space is that. And this year,
Speaker 3: a not particularly well known tech entrepreneur named Elon Musk
Speaker 3: donates one hundred thousand dollars to the Mars Society and
Speaker 3: joins the board, and during one of their meetings, announces
Speaker 3: a project he calls Mars Oasis, the idea of landing
Speaker 3: a greenhouse on Mars. At the time, he's in negotiation
Speaker 3: with ross Cosmos with the Russian Federation to acquire a
Speaker 3: neeper launch vehicle to be able to fly a mission
Speaker 3: to Mars. The Russians think he's a joke, and it
Speaker 3: makes him angry, and he starts looking at how what
Speaker 3: it would take to build his own rocket.
Speaker 2: I never went anywhere, did it all?
Speaker 3: Right Over to computing, I'd call it foreshadowing except its history.
Speaker 3: It's two thousand and one, the dot com crash is
Speaker 3: well underway. Tech companies have lost a lot of value already.
Speaker 3: It's not over yet. Bottom up in two thousand and two,
Speaker 3: so that's exciting. And Apple has an amazing year in
Speaker 3: two thousand and one. In January, they released iTunes. It
Speaker 3: was originally a product called Soundjawn that they acquired in
Speaker 3: ninety nine. It was created in ninety nine they acquired
Speaker 3: in two thousand and they're heading down their music path
Speaker 3: because in October they'll release the iPod. They also opened
Speaker 3: the first Apple stores in Glendale, California and in Tysons,
Speaker 3: Virginia and mac OSX is released, So I mean Apple
Speaker 3: was firing on all cylinders there. It was amazing.
Speaker 2: Microsoft also released the Xbox that year.
Speaker 3: Matt Microsoft releases the Xbox that year. They also released
Speaker 3: XP that year, including the sixty four bit Itanium version.
Speaker 3: The Xbox release includes is also the same time they
Speaker 3: released Halo, the most popular game for the Xbox, and
Speaker 3: it's also too. In June, the US versus Microsoft decision
Speaker 3: where Microsoft is ordered to break up into two companies
Speaker 3: that didn't have they will sub subsequently by the end
Speaker 3: of the year negotiate a consent to cree that won't have.
Speaker 3: That actually happen. Also July, Napster is shut down. This
Speaker 3: was the music and media piracy site. Yeah there was,
Speaker 3: you know, but it's solid. That same month, a guy
Speaker 3: named Bram Cohen announces a open source library he calls BitTorrent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, BitTorrent. We we got sucked into the BitTorrent thing
Speaker 2: because bandwidth was expensive back then.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we were trying to save bandwidth. So well,
Speaker 3: we had started the show yet, you hadn't started the
Speaker 3: show yet. Remember I'm the new guy. I'll show up
Speaker 3: a couple of years later.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, BitTorrent's already invented, and we'll you'll need to use
Speaker 3: it to try and save me what cause? So yeah,
Speaker 3: for on the Microsoft side, we we've got the case,
Speaker 3: We've got XP We've got I E six, very popular browser,
Speaker 3: and the Xbox with Hailo. That's all I got.
Speaker 2: There's something else that I forgot to say, and maybe
Speaker 2: you want to talk about it, But the first draft
Speaker 2: of the Complete Human Genome was published in Nature in
Speaker 2: two thousand and one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we talked about the preliminaries of that previously, but yeah,
Speaker 3: the the Human Genome project had been going on for
Speaker 3: some time. And yeah, the complete draft is almost a misnomer.
Speaker 3: There'll be subsequent additions to it after that, but yeah,
Speaker 3: it's a multi billion dollar multi year project that now
Speaker 3: has paved the way to a whole lot of science.
Speaker 2: Also, before we go on all, musician George Harrison died.
Speaker 2: You may have heard of him. He was in that
Speaker 2: little band called the Beatles. November twenty ninth. And yeah,
Speaker 2: that was bad. Some anthrax attacks happened, some natural disasters
Speaker 2: and other things. But I want to talk about the
Speaker 2: top ten movies of two thousand and one. Hannibal number ten,
Speaker 2: Planet of the Apes, number nine, Jurassic Park three, number eight.
Speaker 2: Did you even see two or three? I only saw
Speaker 2: the first one.
Speaker 3: You alys saw the first one?
Speaker 2: Yeah, The Mummy returns, Pearl Harbor, Ocean's eleven, Shrek also
Speaker 2: great now. Number three is Monsters Inc.
Speaker 3: Great great movie.
Speaker 2: Number two, oh yeah, number two, Philly Crystal is just
Speaker 2: so great that it's so great. Number two is Lord
Speaker 2: of the Rings, the Fellowship of the Ring. And okay,
Speaker 2: number one Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, what a series? What a series?
Speaker 2: All right? So that's about all we can say about
Speaker 2: two thousand and one. I'm sure we left a lot
Speaker 2: of stuff out, but hey, it's only an hour show,
Speaker 2: so let's get on with better.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 2: Framework.
Speaker 3: Awesome.
Speaker 2: All right, all right, so I went, you know, as
Speaker 2: I always do, I go looking for trending repos. This
Speaker 2: one was beating all of the other trending repos by
Speaker 2: a long shot, just like in one day, something like
Speaker 2: six hundred thousand downloads or something. It's a it's basically
Speaker 2: a video maker bot where you take a Reddit conversation
Speaker 2: and you have a dialogue box that shows a question, right,
Speaker 2: and then another dialogue after that posted over it that
Speaker 2: has the answer, and it's usually hilarious, right, And so
Speaker 2: people are making videos of these with a with a
Speaker 2: background and posting them on TikTok and YouTube and Instagram
Speaker 2: and everywhere, and they're going viral. This is just like
Speaker 2: a thing that you're you know, you're just memish that
Speaker 2: you're making fun of people on Reddit or or you know.
Speaker 3: Reddit is where people make fun of people all the time.
Speaker 3: So this is now a visualization because comments are historically
Speaker 3: phenomenally funny.
Speaker 2: The chickens are coming home to roost, I guess. So basically,
Speaker 2: this guy put together a bot that makes a video
Speaker 2: just with you know, pure programming basically, and he takes it.
Speaker 2: He use his Python uses playwright, and he autumn. You
Speaker 2: just give it the Reddit topic that you want and
Speaker 2: bing bang boom makes an MP.
Speaker 3: Three playwrights doing the scraping role to pull the data needed. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I get it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so yeah, this is the thing. If you
Speaker 2: know it, you know, But if you don't, you don't care. Sorry,
Speaker 2: I just wasted your time.
Speaker 3: Hilarious.
Speaker 2: So that's what I got. Who's talking to today?
Speaker 3: You know, we're talking about nano framework today, And I've
Speaker 3: been a while since we've done any shows around the
Speaker 3: micro framework and you know, the precursor to it. But
Speaker 3: I went into the wayback machine there and found our
Speaker 3: IoT on Windows Talk conversation with Dan Rosenstein. This is
Speaker 3: from twenty fourteen. It's episode ten nineteen, and this was
Speaker 3: part of the Windows Developer program being trying to make
Speaker 3: IoT easier in that space, and it focused on Intel's
Speaker 3: Galileo device which works with our duino but also you know,
Speaker 3: it works with x eighty six, and they at that
Speaker 3: moment they hadn't released an implementation of the micro framework
Speaker 3: for it, but subsequently they did. And in fact I
Speaker 3: grabbed our friend Pete Brown's calm atop of the show
Speaker 3: where he said, and immediately it's eleven years ago. You
Speaker 3: can get the Intel Galileo for fifty nine dollars from
Speaker 3: Amazon net. Duenogo runs the dot net micro framework, which
Speaker 3: itself is an operating system for the device. Although OS
Speaker 3: is a strong term for what is really a hardware
Speaker 3: distraction layer and API set with an interpreter yeah operating system,
Speaker 3: there is no additional OS required at this point. The
Speaker 3: GO protocol in bus is conceptually similar to USB versus Gadgeteer,
Speaker 3: which is more Arduino like in that it exposes native
Speaker 3: pins and interfaces to the microcontroller. Our duino is more
Speaker 3: of an API layer over ABR and not really any
Speaker 3: sort of operating system in general. It uses shields, which
Speaker 3: is this pin based way of adding additional hardware to
Speaker 3: our duenos. But they're increasingly a number of smaller form
Speaker 3: factors and breadboard family implementations. And admittedly this is a
Speaker 3: ten year old post. Things have changed a fair bit here,
Speaker 3: but he still goes on to say this is Pete.
Speaker 3: Raspberry Pie runs Linux, as does boards like beagle Bone
Speaker 3: and others. Dot A Gadgetar modules through the standard tenpin connectors,
Speaker 3: but the pins are like our do we know form
Speaker 3: factors dedicated specific uses. It makes it easier to prototype,
Speaker 3: and when combined with a design service and class libraries
Speaker 3: and visual studio, makes really good dev experience. And thanks
Speaker 3: for the shartout. Thank you, Pete. We haven't met on
Speaker 3: the show in forever. We should probably do something about that,
Speaker 3: and I am really looking forward to our conversation to days,
Speaker 3: just because there's so much that has changed in the
Speaker 3: IoT space. There's so much better hardware out there and
Speaker 3: obviously better tool it. So Pete, thank you so much
Speaker 3: for your comment. And a copy of Music Coby is
Speaker 3: on its way to you, And if you'd like a
Speaker 3: copy of music co buy right a comment on the
Speaker 3: website at dot net rocks dot com or on the facebooks.
Speaker 3: We publish every show there and if you comment there
Speaker 3: and reading on the show, we'll send you a copy
Speaker 3: of Music go By and Music Coby.
Speaker 2: You know, I still haven't finished the twenty third track.
Speaker 2: I really got to do that, really in downtime. I
Speaker 2: can't believe I didn't do that all right, twenty two tracks,
Speaker 2: twenty five minutes each to help you get into a
Speaker 2: state of flow while developing and stay there and still
Speaker 2: going strong, also getting multiple multiple sales every week all right,
Speaker 2: let's bring on our guest today, Jose Simolish. He is
Speaker 2: the CEO of Eclose Solutions and founder and core team
Speaker 2: lead of dot Net nano Framework. Based in Lyria, Portugal,
Speaker 2: he was awarded Microsoft MVP five times for his work
Speaker 2: on Internet of Things and developer technologies. His ship projects
Speaker 2: across embedded firmware, hardware design, and cloud connected products, with
Speaker 2: a toolbox that includes dot Net and Azure technologies alongside
Speaker 2: c C plus plus microcontrollers and electronics. Passionate about building
Speaker 2: open source communities and empowering developers in the various communities
Speaker 2: he's actively engaged with. He's also a published author of
Speaker 2: Embedded Systems with dot Net nanoframework from Apress. Welcome to
Speaker 2: the show, Jose.
Speaker 4: Well, thanks for having me. It's a real pleasure to
Speaker 4: be here with you.
Speaker 3: Guys.
Speaker 2: I think it was you that reached out to us
Speaker 2: about the nano framework, or somebody did recently, and that's
Speaker 2: ended up being.
Speaker 3: It was at episode two thousand, which you know we
Speaker 3: published last week is all the time shifting thing, It
Speaker 3: was actually a couple of weeks ago, Like time is weird,
Speaker 3: but yeah, we had a chance to meet him and
Speaker 3: like holy Man, we have never talked about nano framework.
Speaker 3: We talked about micro framework years ago, right, not nano framework.
Speaker 3: So we should fix that right away. It's been a
Speaker 3: long time. I guess that's a good starting point. Like
Speaker 3: what's the difference between micro framework and nano framework.
Speaker 4: Well, interestingly, to the best of my knowledge, two thousand
Speaker 4: and one was when the work started to on developing
Speaker 4: micro framework, which was published in two thousand and two.
Speaker 3: Right, so it came out at the same time as
Speaker 3: the regular framework.
Speaker 4: Yes, about the same time as far as I know. Yeah,
Speaker 4: And what says about it's revised and augmented micro framework.
Speaker 4: It's capable for running on small devices it had it
Speaker 4: still uses a lot of the comproducts from the original
Speaker 4: micro framework. We left the good parts in and we
Speaker 4: revamped the basically the build system, which was quite outdated.
Speaker 4: We focused on having it possible to run on multiple
Speaker 4: and different hardware vendors and micro controllers, which is what
Speaker 4: you can do now. Any Certitude its micro control can
Speaker 4: run a nano framework. And we had a bunch of
Speaker 4: stuff with everything that it's new on the embedded systems world,
Speaker 4: like io T, the network connections, various protocols of course,
Speaker 4: all the usual stuff that you would expect on a
Speaker 4: micro control is there, spi as Czer reports, all that put.
Speaker 2: By the Nano moniker that it's smaller than the micro
Speaker 2: framework is that, yes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's the naming is hard. And back then
Speaker 4: when we spin off the project, we went a lot.
Speaker 4: There was a lot of discussion on what we should
Speaker 4: call it, and ended up being Nano with a small
Speaker 4: caps N to stress that it's it's a nano version
Speaker 4: of the full dot net.
Speaker 3: And this is not a Microsoft in issues. This is
Speaker 3: all community driven.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's something that sometimes people confuse. But despite
Speaker 4: this sitting on the dot net ecosystem uses visual Studio
Speaker 4: visuals to go the dot net new gats and all that.
Speaker 4: It's not a Microsoft project and does not run on
Speaker 4: Microsoft budget. It's community driven.
Speaker 3: That's awesome. The big difference, you know, referencing the comment
Speaker 3: I grabbed from ten years ago, the big difference ten
Speaker 3: years from ago to now is the micro controllers are
Speaker 3: wildly better. Esp. Thirty two and five, like, this is
Speaker 3: such good gear out there. They're small, they're super cheap,
Speaker 3: and they're really very powerful.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing when compared with micro framework. Memory,
Speaker 4: despite being expensive, is much more cheap.
Speaker 3: Computing me not today, but like six months ago.
Speaker 5: Yeah exactly, but everything is cheaper than it was when
Speaker 5: when all this started.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it makes it makes a ton of difference,
Speaker 4: even with the CPU power that you see that you
Speaker 4: have on the on the micro controller, and you can
Speaker 4: have much smaller devices and all that has changed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just and I've been doing I haven't done much
Speaker 3: with nano framework, not any with Nano framework. When I
Speaker 3: use ESP thirty twos, and I'm a home assistant guy,
Speaker 3: so I use the SP thirty twos all the time.
Speaker 3: It's through ESP Home right where you almost barely touch
Speaker 3: that hardware per se. You're just kind of giving instructions
Speaker 3: for what you wanted to do, and it generates into
Speaker 3: the device because it just has so much cloud exactly.
Speaker 4: That's kind of I would say, similar to to the
Speaker 4: to the Nano framework promise our value propositions that nano
Speaker 4: frameworker abstracts all the complication from imbedded systems development and
Speaker 4: the hardware. The hard part like booting my controller, configuring
Speaker 4: all those registers to have the clock properly set, the
Speaker 4: memory maps, the linker files. All that is hard and
Speaker 4: it's abstracted. As you use Nano framework, you have framewares
Speaker 4: for a bunch of different micro controllers and you can
Speaker 4: basically cause ones and deploy on the different platforms that
Speaker 4: you are working with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a nice.
Speaker 3: Feature, you seem to imply. Then there is a kind
Speaker 3: of a CLR here that's abstracting the hardware for us.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's there is the CLR and also how and
Speaker 4: the power layer, because abstruct the hardware and you abstract
Speaker 4: the platform. Despite those being micro controllers. With the thirty
Speaker 4: two pits, there are cordex ones. They are the extensor
Speaker 4: from Expressive, the original ones. All those are different different hardwarees,
Speaker 4: different vendors. Each one has his own SDK, which makes
Speaker 4: even more complicated. Also, the real time operating system, the
Speaker 4: r TOSS, it's something that we added in nano framework
Speaker 4: which wasn't there on the micro framework. Basically we have
Speaker 4: an abstraction layer that makes it possible to use any
Speaker 4: r TOS that you find out there. Given the platform
Speaker 4: abstraction layer, it's there, which makes it even more powerful
Speaker 4: and suitable for use on different projects.
Speaker 3: I'm presuming you're not just in time compiling here. That
Speaker 3: you actually compile to a given stack when you're going
Speaker 3: to deploy it.
Speaker 4: Actually, now this you have your c sharp publication with
Speaker 4: visual Studio. When you hit F five, Rosslyn does it
Speaker 4: sing with building, the upp cation, compiling and all that.
Speaker 4: And then there is an extra step which runs down
Speaker 4: the IL instructions and the metadata through what we call
Speaker 4: the metadata processor. What it does it strips down everything
Speaker 4: that it's not absolutely needed to run sharkcote. It also
Speaker 4: changes the addresses because it doesn't use sixty four it
Speaker 4: uses certitude bytes. And also it's yes, it's shrinking it
Speaker 4: and also some changes with the resources and the enoms.
Speaker 4: And that's that's basically on a very simplistic overview on
Speaker 4: what's going on. And then you have the execution engine,
Speaker 4: just like you have on the full dot net, which
Speaker 4: is interpreting the ALE instructions one after the app.
Speaker 2: Can you optionally do ahead of time compiling? No? And
Speaker 2: if you could, would it help? I mean, would it
Speaker 2: make it faster?
Speaker 4: There is not enough room on these small mark controls too.
Speaker 4: I see, so we are not doing any AOT here.
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, yeah, I got some questions here. Maybe we
Speaker 2: should wait till after the break though, should we do
Speaker 2: it early break? Yeah, all right, we'll be right back
Speaker 2: after these very important messages, and we're back. I'm Carl Franklin,
Speaker 2: that's Richard Campbell. We're talking to Jose Simoish about nano framework.
Speaker 2: And my big question was, obviously this has been in
Speaker 2: production for a long time and devices have you know,
Speaker 2: you know, have have gotten more powerful and smaller and
Speaker 2: faster and all of that stuff. Can you tell me
Speaker 2: what your what project you've seen out in the wild
Speaker 2: or maybe you did it yourself. IoT project has been
Speaker 2: the most amazing to.
Speaker 4: You, the most amazing I deal with with serve products
Speaker 4: from from different customers. One that it's not an.
Speaker 2: I T per se.
Speaker 4: One of the most interesting uses because of the all
Speaker 4: the contexts it has. It's from Skyworks, a company that produces,
Speaker 4: along with other compoundents, timing timing chips and they their
Speaker 4: development team is a dot net shop and they use
Speaker 4: dot net a long time to use their the applicate
Speaker 4: the desktop applications for the the engineers network with those chips,
Speaker 4: and they decided to use nano frameworks so they could
Speaker 4: go all the way and so the area is in
Speaker 4: NNAL framework to run the framework on the devaluation boards there,
Speaker 4: and so they can benefit from all the couture used
Speaker 4: that you can do on dot net, so use the
Speaker 4: same quaesses.
Speaker 2: So they wrote firmware with nano framework that's pretty exactly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they use it on devaluation boards, on test benches,
Speaker 4: on the test chambers and all that is using dot
Speaker 4: Net from top to bottom, using classes, unit tests, all that.
Speaker 4: So it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 3: I really appreciate that you're not talking about a hobby project,
Speaker 3: Like a lot of these things are hobbyist things. And
Speaker 3: then it's like, no, this is production gear for big
Speaker 3: factories that need timing equipment. And I was just looking
Speaker 3: at Skyworks that they do anti jitter stuff and like
Speaker 3: that's complicated machine management stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, but nano framework is part of that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah absolutely. I mean as first class you can
Speaker 4: see oh right, running sea shop on a micro control.
Speaker 4: That's neat. Yeah it is. And you can you can
Speaker 4: do your garage opener, your sprinkling system, home automation with that,
Speaker 4: and that's fine. You can also use it on universities
Speaker 4: and schools to learn how to code. Sea Sharp is
Speaker 4: a great language to learn how to code, but for
Speaker 4: commercial products. That's that's the real change here. You can
Speaker 4: be very very productive coding without matter. With all the
Speaker 4: powerful debugging experience that visual Studio gives you unit tests
Speaker 4: F five, you can change variables. This is far from
Speaker 4: the usual embedded systems debugging cycle that you find with
Speaker 4: the C and C plus plus.
Speaker 2: Do you have customers using it to do real time
Speaker 2: digital signal processing? I mean, I'm thinking in the audio world, right,
Speaker 2: you have like Echo f X boxes and things like
Speaker 2: that that you plug an input and you get an
Speaker 2: output and in real time it kind of adjusts the signal.
Speaker 2: But you know, DSP isn't just for audio. Of course.
Speaker 4: I don't have any commercial project too that I know
Speaker 4: of using it, but this is an open source project,
Speaker 4: so anyone can use it. But there have been questions
Speaker 4: on our discord surface about I square s, which relates
Speaker 4: with sound, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone out
Speaker 4: there would be using it for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very cool. I wish I knew more about, you know,
Speaker 2: that kind of low level programming to be able to
Speaker 2: do that stuff. I'm really my spaces and at the
Speaker 2: application layer and the back end.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you can do that with an our framework.
Speaker 4: If you know how to kill the c sharp you
Speaker 4: can do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it guess always. The question here when I deal
Speaker 3: with IoT projects in general, is it's the sensor set.
Speaker 3: You know, the compute's fine, Now what are we trying
Speaker 3: to do? Like I'm putting this small gizmo in an
Speaker 3: unusual place and I want to measure things, right, light
Speaker 3: levels or temperature, humidity rate of a motor spin, you
Speaker 3: know that kind of thing. How do you connect sensors
Speaker 3: to this is all hardware layer, and how does it
Speaker 3: show up in nano framework.
Speaker 4: It uses the buses on the on the macro controller,
Speaker 4: the real port being the most basic one, and then
Speaker 4: can have SPI R, s QC all this kind of
Speaker 4: it interfaces allows you to interface with the with the
Speaker 4: real world. Because I'm there are all sorts of usages
Speaker 4: out there for IoT, and you can't have big machines
Speaker 4: using it. But you also need the smallest one to work.
Speaker 4: I mean, you don't need you don't need the device
Speaker 4: with the eight cores and sixteen gigas off RAM to
Speaker 4: send a hundred bytes back to the cloud. Macri Control
Speaker 4: is more than capable of doing that, and you want
Speaker 4: to do it with using the least possible amount of
Speaker 4: energy if it's wireless device. And sometimes you can even
Speaker 4: do processing on the edge with it. I mean you
Speaker 4: can have it connected with in an electrical motor. You
Speaker 4: can sense the vibration temperature on the shaft and you
Speaker 4: can see that it's not doing what you supposed and
Speaker 4: you can go into predative maintenance and give you ahead
Speaker 4: of time information that something is not okay and you
Speaker 4: should fix it before it burns. So there is use
Speaker 4: case scenarios for all these different machines and micro controls
Speaker 4: and dioite projects.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you mentioned a few times, but power
Speaker 3: use and so forth. Is this all about being on
Speaker 3: battery and trying to be efficient that way.
Speaker 4: That's one of the use cases you can use it
Speaker 4: with most of the time sleeping. There is a telemetry project.
Speaker 4: For example, we have this deployed in solar farms and
Speaker 4: the other customers using for a telemetry from oil tanks
Speaker 4: out into the desert on which the device is sleeping
Speaker 4: most of the time. It takes every other hour it
Speaker 4: measures all the various senses that it's out there, composes
Speaker 4: the package with a telemetry turns on a satellite radio
Speaker 4: sends its thing to the id of and then go
Speaker 4: back to sleep.
Speaker 3: Back, sleep again. Yeah, that's cool and funny. Like the
Speaker 3: compute consumes no energy at all, that's easy part transmitting data.
Speaker 3: That's the power hog like only whan. Yeah, what a
Speaker 3: difference that makes. Like you I learned pretty quickly playing
Speaker 3: with ESP thirty two is like if you use that
Speaker 3: Wi Fi antenna that eats your battery, you talk Bluetooth
Speaker 3: bl E. You can do that all day long. It
Speaker 3: means nothing.
Speaker 4: Wi Fi is expensive energy wise.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, just not and and so much handshaking. It's not.
Speaker 3: It just wasn't built for intermitting connectivity. It's just not
Speaker 3: efficient for that sort of thing. I don't want to
Speaker 3: let go the hardware piece of that, because I hope
Speaker 3: you clarified that different hardware uses different buses, so you've
Speaker 3: got to kind of map all that out to figure
Speaker 3: out what you're going to get your connection to. But
Speaker 3: the nano framework abstracts that enough you kind of don't care.
Speaker 3: It's just the service at that point.
Speaker 4: Yes, When, for example, if you've ever an SPI controller
Speaker 4: to connect to an SPI sensor, let's say, let's say
Speaker 4: a biometric sensor, you just when you're institiating the classes,
Speaker 4: just say, hey, this is using spipins three, four, and sixteen,
Speaker 4: and that's it. And then you can go and call
Speaker 4: the right methods, the read methods with the buffers to
Speaker 4: centerate or retate it from it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then in your motor example, you'd be using
Speaker 3: an SPI to do something like measure the vibration, so
Speaker 3: some kind of accelerometer.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, but you.
Speaker 3: Still have to learn to parse that data to figure
Speaker 3: out like what does this mean? What you know, what
Speaker 3: are we actually measuring? Like, none of that's just that simple.
Speaker 3: It takes a little time to go, Okay, we're now
Speaker 3: getting g meeting readings or accelerometer readings. Now what do
Speaker 3: they mean? What's good? What's bad? You know, what's the
Speaker 3: rate of sample? I've played a lot of games with
Speaker 3: It's one thing to check temperature every ten minutes, but
Speaker 3: if you're trying to figure out if a bearing starting
Speaker 3: to fail, those vibrations are in killer hurts, you need
Speaker 3: to sample many times per second to really see the
Speaker 3: acceleration going.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you still need to despite this abstracting the complication
Speaker 4: from you, you still need to understand what you are doing. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so that's that's exactly. You need to understand what you
Speaker 4: are doing and it makes you easy to connect to
Speaker 4: that sensor. But you need to understand the data. If
Speaker 4: you are a regular dot net developer, you know how
Speaker 4: to instantiate an object is the classes and the methods
Speaker 4: and all that, but very quickly and you don't have
Speaker 4: to go through the through the sense of data ship.
Speaker 4: You can understand easily understand the concept and all that
Speaker 4: wires to your knowledge of the shop and how that works,
Speaker 4: and you will be very productive and coding your application
Speaker 4: and in a very short period of time.
Speaker 2: Right, you mentioned that this is a great way for
Speaker 2: people to learn how to write code, you know, especially kids,
Speaker 2: you know, give them a device, give them something, right,
Speaker 2: Are there any courses or trainings available that specifically use
Speaker 2: the nano framework and maybe a particular device like a
Speaker 2: kit that all goes together to teach programming, Not.
Speaker 4: That I'm aware of, but that would be I would
Speaker 4: say easy to come up with.
Speaker 2: Sure, what's your favorite device for just mucking around?
Speaker 4: Obvioists, how it would have to be an SP SAT two.
Speaker 4: It's it's crazy cheap.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And ESP thirty two said.
Speaker 4: Yeah, ESP thirty two, and you can connect that you
Speaker 4: to pretty much any censor up there, LEDs all the
Speaker 4: all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 3: And a room ESP thirty two. We can get them
Speaker 3: off of Amazon, which I'll have on it, USB, Wi Fi, Bluetooth,
Speaker 3: a couple of cores, ram so forth ten bucks.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, wow. Yeah, it's like you're not really constrained. Like
Speaker 3: there's a lot of compute in there, there's a lot
Speaker 3: of power in there. You plug it the you plug
Speaker 3: the USB port into your PC and you just start
Speaker 3: talking to it. And there's a bunch of ways to
Speaker 3: go about it. Nano frameworks an amazing one.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the first time that the man went to
Speaker 4: the moon. There was not such a.
Speaker 3: Complete Yeah, we're recording this while Artemis is just passed
Speaker 3: the moon and is on its way back, still a
Speaker 3: few days away. And yeah, they got a whole bit
Speaker 3: bit more computed power than say, Apollo eight had. But
Speaker 3: these things the same thing, just hugely powerful. It's just
Speaker 3: this interesting collision now where you've got the framework down
Speaker 3: of this nice tidy size and the hardware has gotten
Speaker 3: so powerful. It's just like you don't have to compromise, all.
Speaker 2: Right, So now you got me looking on Amazon and
Speaker 2: I found an ultimate starter kit with the ESP thirty two,
Speaker 2: which has a display, it has a remote, it has
Speaker 2: a camera. You know, it's got yeah, speakers, it's got
Speaker 2: all the stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, fun you can Yeah. How crazy is that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're spending more on sense Yeah absolutely, Yeah, the
Speaker 3: compute the comp pieces. Now you know that's a very
Speaker 3: inexpensive smart rock.
Speaker 2: And what is the process for getting the nano framework
Speaker 2: on say one of these boards? Is it pretty easy?
Speaker 4: You need a plant SIMPLYSB connector UH. And there there
Speaker 4: is a a c l I too on which you
Speaker 4: you you've typed the options kind of update massive raise
Speaker 4: the target ESP S T two and it connects to
Speaker 4: the can you say which which comport it is connected to? Uh?
Speaker 4: And then it goes and talks with with the macro controller,
Speaker 4: find out what's the model, goes and grabs the appropriate firmware,
Speaker 4: flashes it, and less than one minute you have the
Speaker 4: device popping on visual studio and you can start your
Speaker 4: low world application.
Speaker 2: So now this says it comes with Python, c Scratch
Speaker 2: and video courses. But just because it comes with Python
Speaker 2: doesn't mean you can't use c sharp, right, correct? You
Speaker 2: just have to flash it with a nano firmwork framework.
Speaker 2: It's great, fantastic, It's in my car.
Speaker 3: So what's it when you're in the dead cycle here
Speaker 3: are you testing as an emulator? Are you always pushing
Speaker 3: to the ESP thirty two and actually running the code
Speaker 3: on the SP thirty two.
Speaker 4: Also a virtual device which is used to to run
Speaker 4: unit tests when you don't have a real device, and
Speaker 4: you can do a lot of stuff except when you
Speaker 4: start touching the hardware because obviously you cannot connect there
Speaker 4: being a virtual device, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it only becomes complicated when now you want to
Speaker 3: talk to the sensors and things and you kind of
Speaker 3: need the hardware for that. But and my experience, just
Speaker 3: take that load of to load long to loading P
Speaker 3: thirty two in the first place. Like you can just
Speaker 3: keep pushing to the hardware and watching it run on
Speaker 3: the native gear, Yeah.
Speaker 4: You can. You can keep pushing. If you are on
Speaker 4: Visual Studio, when you hit that five, it will go
Speaker 4: and uploads the assemblies that you have on your application,
Speaker 4: and it's real quick.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Speaker 4: If you have a simple yellow World, it takes five
Speaker 4: seconds to push that to the to the market control
Speaker 4: and hit the first breakpoint.
Speaker 2: So are we talking about visual studios?
Speaker 3: These break points actually running on the ESP thirty two.
Speaker 4: It's running on the SP thirty two with a yeah, it's.
Speaker 2: So are we talking about visual studio?
Speaker 6: Here?
Speaker 2: Did I miss something?
Speaker 4: A visual studio? And there is also an excession for
Speaker 4: visual studio code?
Speaker 2: Great?
Speaker 3: Wow, so you can you're looking at your code and
Speaker 3: visual studio. You set a break point you're actually pushing
Speaker 3: onto the SP thirty two hardware. Yeah, you know, it
Speaker 3: hits that sensor value that you were flagging for. The
Speaker 3: classic one is when the temperature goes above X. So
Speaker 3: I set a breakpoint for that, and I put my
Speaker 3: hand on the sensor running on the actual hardware, and
Speaker 3: the breakpoint pops up on my PC exactly and you
Speaker 3: stare in awe.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly. You can set all everything except
Speaker 4: the fancy stuff like hot reloads and all that, because yeah,
Speaker 4: but all the stuff that you have and you are
Speaker 4: used to on your visual studiybox session you have there.
Speaker 4: You can set breakpoints, conditional breakpoints. You can change the
Speaker 4: value the value of a variable, you can inspect objects,
Speaker 4: you can go with the execution back and forth, and
Speaker 4: the code lines. All the heads is they are working
Speaker 4: on a plane, simple USB connection and actually running on
Speaker 4: the Mac control.
Speaker 3: It's awesome, it is. Yeah, it's fantastic. But it just
Speaker 3: means you're not struggling. You know. I've had this experience
Speaker 3: where IVE done everything in the emulator and then you
Speaker 3: push the hardware and you are wrong. Something's going on right,
Speaker 3: So it's I am very prone to wanting to run
Speaker 3: in the heart hardware. It's just that often it slows
Speaker 3: the cycle down so so much. You make a change,
Speaker 3: you got to wait for the push. So as long
Speaker 3: as it's quick, I'd rather always work on the hardware.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, this, this does happen because this this is
Speaker 4: dot net, uh and dot net is great on on
Speaker 4: that and that's that's part of the value proposition of
Speaker 4: dot net. As I said at the beginning of the show,
Speaker 4: you can have your team being very productive using this
Speaker 4: because the the iteration cycles are much slower, and if
Speaker 4: you are as in c r C plus plus to that,
Speaker 4: you need a very skilled engineer to work with that.
Speaker 4: And if you need to change something on the on
Speaker 4: the code, you would have to wait for that team
Speaker 4: to to go and do their thing and build the
Speaker 4: next firmware. And flash it with this a regular dot
Speaker 4: NETLP can do it by itself. You go and change
Speaker 4: what you have to change on the code. You hit
Speaker 4: that five and you have your next iteration going, what was.
Speaker 2: The last big update you did to the nano framework
Speaker 2: and what was the you know, the big the big change.
Speaker 4: It's currently in public preview, and that was adding support
Speaker 4: for generics.
Speaker 3: Wow, that's a resource intensive capability.
Speaker 2: It is it is so you didn't have you couldn't
Speaker 2: use of t before.
Speaker 4: No, no, no, because when all this started, there weren't
Speaker 4: generics on the full dot net. So this is all
Speaker 4: it is.
Speaker 2: So are you using a custom version of c sharp
Speaker 2: or something?
Speaker 4: Until now, we simply didn't have support fortun ICs, so
Speaker 4: we would have to use the code we have to
Speaker 4: go without gen x uh with the support for gun erics,
Speaker 4: if we can use the all the fun stuff that
Speaker 4: allows you to do and.
Speaker 3: C sharp I gets.
Speaker 2: My question is can we use other c sharp features
Speaker 2: like link or.
Speaker 4: That library is under development right now so we'll be
Speaker 4: able to fuse link with nane of their work.
Speaker 2: Yes, I see, so it's it is nan It's limited
Speaker 2: in terms of what it can do, even though the
Speaker 2: language is.
Speaker 4: Modern Yes, yeah, yeah, and and this is something that
Speaker 4: it took a long time to develop. If all, we
Speaker 4: won't believe it, but this is started back in COVID. Wow.
Speaker 4: So it's it's really crazy the amount of engineering that
Speaker 4: goes back there and making this this happen. And interestingly
Speaker 4: it it doesn't add that much to the to the
Speaker 4: execution engine or to the requirements on the run and
Speaker 4: all that because the way it's engineered at the sea
Speaker 4: sharp language and the metadata and all that makes it
Speaker 4: possible to run on on the market controller, which is
Speaker 4: pretty neat.
Speaker 3: I mean, is there really even a conversation here about
Speaker 3: the version of dot net you're running?
Speaker 4: No, and even with the sea sharp language is kind
Speaker 4: of that. When that question pops up, the usual answer
Speaker 4: is it depends. And the thing you can you can
Speaker 4: set your your sea sharp project to the latest version
Speaker 4: of the language and most of the features will work
Speaker 4: if it's not support and we don't even keep a
Speaker 4: list of the unsupported things because it would be hard
Speaker 4: to maintain. But if something it's not working and breaks,
Speaker 4: you immediately will not is that it's it's because of
Speaker 4: that and you can get away from from it.
Speaker 3: Okay, So what is the error messages you look like,
Speaker 3: you know, how does it behave when you hit you're
Speaker 3: using a feature that is not implemented.
Speaker 4: Most of the time, it won't even compile. Our will
Speaker 4: so you will immediately that you are off track.
Speaker 3: Okay, that's pretty very straightforward. And the same viewpoint on
Speaker 3: the c sharp language features, like, it's not a specific
Speaker 3: version of c sharp.
Speaker 4: It's not. We tend to use the lightest one that's
Speaker 4: out there and it's uh, it just works. And that's
Speaker 4: not on us, it's on Rosslyn and visual suited and
Speaker 4: all that. So it's amazing all this being possible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, noo. Question, uh what about l MS, Like if
Speaker 3: you are you using any of this tooling to do
Speaker 3: work with nano framework.
Speaker 4: Do you? Yes, we have we have an m CP
Speaker 4: server on our embedded server library which allows you to
Speaker 4: expose prompts and capabilities from a market controller and using
Speaker 4: the m c P you can have any l ll
Speaker 4: M interacting with the with the device, which kind of
Speaker 4: brings this to the to the next level of I T.
Speaker 4: You now can have intelligent Internet of Things on which
Speaker 4: you can have the machine talking with the l l
Speaker 4: M answering to two questions from the machine using those prompts,
Speaker 4: and you can, hey, give me the temperature for the
Speaker 4: sense this and that so. And because it provides the prompts,
Speaker 4: the l l M doesn't have to guess and you
Speaker 4: can ask exactly what he wants to know about what
Speaker 4: whatever the device is doing and providing, which is very
Speaker 4: very nice.
Speaker 3: Does the m c P enumerate the capabilities of the
Speaker 3: embedded hardware for the l M just to keep it
Speaker 3: in sort of in parameter.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is. You can do that using a very
Speaker 4: simple C sharp class and you you decorate the methods
Speaker 4: with an attribute on which you have the description, Hey,
Speaker 4: ask me this to get the temperature of the sense
Speaker 4: of blah blah blah, or send this to enable this
Speaker 4: gp I O to do this and and all all those,
Speaker 4: all those prompts, and the l M is able to
Speaker 4: give you to to interact with the device knowing beforehand
Speaker 4: what it's capable of doing and what it's not.
Speaker 3: Awesome, So what's next for the nano framework?
Speaker 4: What's next? We am to to be able to get
Speaker 4: in sync with the with the full dot net on
Speaker 4: the project system, because we are still using the the
Speaker 4: old CSP project format uh. And we also want to
Speaker 4: to improve on the on the debugging experience because this
Speaker 4: is still using the old debug version of visual Studio,
Speaker 4: and want to keep up with with the new stuff.
Speaker 4: So we are looking forward to to move to the
Speaker 4: to the next version with generics with be pretty much
Speaker 4: compair with with the full dot net and that's the
Speaker 4: that's our plan.
Speaker 2: So it's an open source project. Are you looking for contributors?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, We love prs and we love contributors and
Speaker 4: if if ands sponsors commercial sponsors.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I see you have a couple of sponsors, but
Speaker 3: I would think with all of these different companies using
Speaker 3: this you have more sponsors.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that would be the the ideal world. But it's
Speaker 4: not just like with most I would say open source projects.
Speaker 4: That's that's an issue. Companies like to use open sources.
Speaker 4: They rely on open source, but they don't give back
Speaker 4: to the to the project. And we all know that
Speaker 4: that story after the companies relying on a guy doing
Speaker 4: the development solo on a very eage component and when
Speaker 4: that breaks, they go in off the door of that
Speaker 4: guy that has to fix everything and they don't contribute
Speaker 4: back to the project.
Speaker 3: But they do complain bitterly that they will stop using
Speaker 3: your library if you don't fix it immediately.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's the thing with it's we all know this story.
Speaker 7: It's free lacking free speech, not the free beer, because
Speaker 7: they have those people that come and knock at your
Speaker 7: door and go to the fridge for the beer and
Speaker 7: they don't like the brand. They complain about the color
Speaker 7: of the bottle and this is not cold or hot enough,
Speaker 7: and they don't give back anything.
Speaker 2: We've had to say that to people who complain about
Speaker 2: our podcasting, will give your money back.
Speaker 8: Yeah, but it's something that companies I think some of
Speaker 8: them don't even realize the power and how how interesting
Speaker 8: this is because on our framework, for example, we try
Speaker 8: to every new release.
Speaker 4: That we put us there, we obviously do our best
Speaker 4: to make to make sure that it's bog free and
Speaker 4: all that, but every now and then I slips. And
Speaker 4: what you see on the discord surf is that when
Speaker 4: anytime that happens, it doesn't take you more than one
Speaker 4: on two hours, someone out there will think you, hey,
Speaker 4: this is not working for me. You broke the w
Speaker 4: tooth or whatever, and we can immediately fix it. And
Speaker 4: this is powerful for commercial use. You have a small
Speaker 4: army of testers out there working for you for free and.
Speaker 2: Lots of fun. Well, I just ordered mine, so I'm
Speaker 2: gonna tell us about the book.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the book. It's it's I'm very happy about about that.
Speaker 3: It just come out in January.
Speaker 4: Yes, it was. It was published on the officially published
Speaker 4: on the last day of the of the year.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Speaker 4: So it's it was kind of a marathon. I was
Speaker 4: reached out by by a prayer to you to write
Speaker 4: because there was nothing about nano firmwork and the closest
Speaker 4: thing was with micro framework a long time ago. And
Speaker 4: this was kind of this lack of literature about about this. Uh.
Speaker 4: And so they reached out to me and having wrote
Speaker 4: the book, which I said, yes, of course, let's spread
Speaker 4: the word about nano firmwork.
Speaker 3: You've got the definitive work. Then this is the book.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's this is the work.
Speaker 3: It's awesome. Well, thanks so much, Ise. This is really
Speaker 3: exciting and glad to see it's going on. So well,
Speaker 3: great stuff.
Speaker 2: Thank you again, Thank you for having me. All Right,
Speaker 2: all right, we'll talk to you next time. That networks.
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Speaker 7: You got javans dot