Speaker 1: Big food and on with Cliff and Bubo.
Speaker 2: These guys are your favorites. So like Shay subscribe and
raid it.
Speaker 3: Lip stock.
Speaker 2: Me gregeous cone.
Speaker 1: Fish today and listening watching limb always keep it squatchy.
Speaker 3: And now you're hosts Cliff Berckman and James Bubo Fay.
Speaker 2: What's up, bubs? Oh not less. It's called the Eclivie.
Oh just stuff, you know, working and living and doing
all that sort of stuff. Been out in the woods
a little bit. I went to the Olympic Peninsula this
past week. Spent three nights out there, I guess, and
for nothing. You know, it's a lot of good camping.
No bigfooting, no bigfoot around her, as far as I
can tell, I dropped by that property, Michael's property outside
of Port Angelis there where we got that got that
handprint and the footprints in the past and whatever else.
Didn't seem to be anything going on there, not on
the property. Of course. I'm referring to Michael who and
he and his family are snowbirders, so they've been off
the property for many many, many many months since basically
last winter. And I always and they're going to be
popping by again, I guess this summer. So I always
like to drop by their property after about four or
five six months of their absence to see if the
bigfoots have been around. But I didn't find any sign
whatsoever on their property. And then I walked the logging
roads all around the area as well for nothing. So
if the sasquatches have been around, I couldn't find any
sign of them.
Speaker 3: That sucks, because that was always such a That place
was always the guild, I mean there was they were
always there at some point.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm sure they're there, but just you know,
I didn't see any sign as the deal. You know,
I walked down in the ravine and whatever else, looked
around for some tracks, and you know, there were some
possible things here and there or whatever, but nothing you
can really say, oh yeah, that's a sasquatch right there.
A lot of bear sign though, I will say that
a lot of bear sign. So maybe I don't know
if sasquatches and bears have, you know, some sort of
mutual exclusion thing going on where ones around and therefore
the other isn't. But if there is any connection whatsoever
in that sort of in that sort of area, I
guess the bears are there. The Sasquatches aren't so right.
But I did spend a few other nights in the woods.
I got to see some upper reaches of some drainages
I've wanted to get into for a while. For the
next night or two, I even dropped by and saw
Derek Randall's for a minute. Oh you did, Yeah, yeah,
he was gonna meet with his family up at the
Olympic Project property, like his kids and whatever else, right,
you know. So I got to see two of his kids,
which is always fun for me because they have they're like,
you know, young men with families and stuff now. And
you know, I did remember doing a footprint investigation with
both of his sons or two of his sons, I guess,
and they were like ten and fourteen or something at
the time. So it's kind of fun to see how
they're growing up and everything. Right, Yeah, but what's up
with you, man? Anything good?
Speaker 3: I went down saw of them, and some friends went
down south, flew down for a couple of days. A
bunch of guys from like our eighth grade class, but
like half the guys in our class, there's like thirteen
of us. But the hat the guys have our birthdays
within like a couple of weeks of each other, so
we had like a get together for that. There was
a couple of pigeons there, but I think there's only
one pigeon in my class, that guy Jones, m either got.
Speaker 2: The rest of them are like two years younger I see, okay,
or a year.
Speaker 3: Younger somewhere a younger or two years younger, and then Jones,
and I think Jones and he were the only ones
our grade.
Speaker 2: Any good stories pop up, anything you'd forgotten about?
Speaker 3: Oh, tons, my brother, come on here, nerves a bunch
of them.
Speaker 2: Oh I'd love that. Dide. You look at Mike and
he'll go for hours. Sounds good. Yeah, and oh but
flying down it suck. It was way gathered around.
Speaker 3: It's foremost story. Dude, He's gonna see some things that'll
bow my classic an.
Speaker 1: He's lying, He's going a kid kill me hin.
Speaker 2: It's boubo story.
Speaker 1: Any description of felonious or criminal activity is being told
here strictly for entertainment purposes, and is in no way
admission of guilt or even true for that matter.
Speaker 3: You got down. It was a hot day and we
got down to the flu. I had a connect, and
usually I just fled direct to LA. I've had a
connect with San Francisco, which is always a nightmare, usually
always not Actually the last few years it's been all right,
but he used to always be a nightmare. And anyways,
came down there and there was like dindor storms, all
this stuff going to the east and tornadoes and whatever.
So they're diverting planes and we sitting on the runway
for like an hour or not. Oh, I was going
on and they double booked because my buddy, he's one
of the guys in are that I graduated with.
Speaker 2: He's a like Internet.
Speaker 3: He's global director of international shipping company and he has
like over two million air miles or something. He's got
tons of free air minds like he's got over a
million miles and he can just get away. So he
got me a ticket to come down. I was like, oh,
I had no big deal, just just I just need
a window, Just make sure I got a window seating.
And I didn't realize that the one that flies direct
to LA and back has like it's a good plan,
like you can have enough room and your knees aren't
pressing in the seat in front of you.
Speaker 2: And all that.
Speaker 3: But on the way back, I was in one of
those cattle car I mean on the way from San Francisco,
La was one of those cattle car planes. You're just
all just wedging, like no matter what, you're just pressed
up because to the other people, your knees are gust
the seat.
Speaker 2: In front of you.
Speaker 3: And so I was double books I went and then
so I already threw my backpack where I thought I
was gonna be sitting. They moved me and I went
up and talked to the stewardess. I was like, hey,
there's some guys sitting in my seat. He goes, oh,
I'll get you something. I said, yeah, it's got to
be a window. And she goes, yeah, yeah, okay, we
got it. And because there was a full flight, and
then so then they had me sit up way closer
to the front, but there were still people getting on board.
Speaker 2: I had to go against the whole grain to get
up there.
Speaker 3: To you don't feel like go against the traffic when
you're trying to get board the plane. There's one jack
a lope that's always like trying to go back to
the front of the plane.
Speaker 2: And that was you that was me, which I hate
that person. So then I didn't want to go back.
Speaker 3: I didn't want to go back and get my back
I got that was because all the overhead bins were
filled by the time everyone came out, and I was like,
I'm not going to pull it out.
Speaker 2: I had to get after the after the flight. So
I'm sitting in there.
Speaker 3: This this big, huge, fat guy I saw in the lobby,
like in a wheelchair. He came on last, actually instead
of first. He goes waddling down and I was sitting there.
I was like, oh no, and I'm like this when
was the only see I see is next to me?
And he caes waddling down, dude, like they're helping him
come down like he was. He was out of the
wheelchair at this point and he's just like hold grabbing
seatbacks like for balance, and I kind of struggling down
and he plops in next to me. Du He just
was like in my seat, like there's no way that
we could both sit next to it. It was it
was impossible, but they gave him a belt extension and
he got in there and I was just crammed in.
I was like, sucks.
Speaker 2: And we sat on the runway for almost just like
fifty five It was just sort of an hour. We
sat the.
Speaker 3: Runway and he wasn't working anything, the air wasn't on.
We were just sweating, just sweating there. And the guy
he was trying to like you know, I was like, dude,
you know, you can't be in my seat. And because
he came on last, he had his back so he
had to put his bag under his feet, so it's
his like his leg was completely in my seat, like
I was totally twisted sideways. We selegraphed for fifty five minutes.
It was hot as hell, sweating, and we finally take
off and we go and we go to we five
to LA. We're like ten minutes from landing, and he
just goes, he put his head down, like put it.
He put it like covered his face with his hands.
The dude just crapped his pants.
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's.
Speaker 3: Going to speed like leaking all over me and stuffing.
I go, dude, you need to help to get up,
you need some help together. Guess he goes, I can't.
He's like shook his head and I was just like,
oh no, And then but I can see that he
had and then that's why I noticed he had a
diaper on, so I was like, okay, look like he
had a diaper.
Speaker 2: I couldn't look like it, whereas he did have a
diaper on it turned out, but still do do is.
Speaker 3: And we sat on the roadway there for forty five
minutes waiting for our space to open up because they
would have shorter cleaning cruise. So I was sitting there
next to this guy. So instead of being like giving
round in ten minutes and you know, another ten minutes
so we're off the plane or whatever, it was like
another hour and twenty minutes. So like just sitting at
this guy just full of like inches from my head,
just breathing. It was just so gnarled, and the air
wasn't on again, and it was it was one of
the worst extras, and we were both drenched in sweat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course you're you're both victims to hear
it because the guy clearly, you know, was not maybe
well obviously you know, and then of course you have
to deal with it as well. It's just there there. Yeah.
I don't know, I don't know who I feel worse
for you were him. Honestly, I felt worse for him
because he was super embarrassed. He was, He wasn't just
like oh whatever. Oh and the lady next to him
was pretty bummed too, I bet, but she could at
least lean into the aisle. Yeah.
Speaker 3: But then the flight, the flight home, I got he
bumped me up to first class because on the way
that he said, you gave me first class, I'm like, no,
don't worry about because it was all filled. Anyways, on
the way back, is he to get me your first
class seat? So that was so I had a very
smooth trip home.
Speaker 2: Okay, that that helped make up for it a little bit,
I guess. So stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond
with Cliff and Bogo. Will be right back after these messages. Well,
what are we doing this week? Then? Glenn Thomas.
Speaker 1: Glenn Thomas. People love the historical deep dives. So when
I was going back through the notes, we have referenced
Glenn Thomas and his various sightings and the one in particular,
I bet you we've referenced it like thirty times over
the seven years that we've been doing this podcast. So
this just seemed like a natural deep dive instead of
always like making quick references and then telling people where
to go look into it. I figured we would just
cover it, and so the version that I have pulled
up is I think the definitive version is John Green's
version from Apes among Us from first hand interviews, and
it also has not only the most famous, you know,
the most detailed of the stories and sightings, but he
also covers the additional sightings too, So I thought that
that would be a good one to cover today.
Speaker 2: Sounds great. Yeah, it's a great, great report. It's local.
I love that it's just right down the Clacamus River,
and I guess when we get there, but we'll learn
more about it. These rock pits and whatever else said
he witnessed being dug out. They're still there, although they're
not in good shape. I will say that I didn't
go there this past year, but I think I was
there a year before and they're just not in good
shape anymore. So whatever that's worth. Oh, maybe I was
there this past year thinking about it? Why was I
up there? Who was I show? Oh? I remember I was.
I was up there this past year. I think I
went up there in August if I remember right. But anyway,
yeah's so, how do we want to do this? You
want to jump in and start reading the story and
we comment on it like we did before, or.
Speaker 1: I think that'd be the good way to do it,
all right, Yeah, I think it'd be good to start
with John Green sort of preamble, because I think it's
it's apropos. But he starts. For anyone who has the book,
it's a memorable page number. The story starts on page
four to twenty of Apes among Us, and John starts
with considering how rare it is for a person to
see a sasquatch once. It always seems suspicious when someone
reports that it has happened to them twice, although there
is certainly nothing impossible about it. Unfortunately, from that point
of view, four of the most informative of all siding
reports come from the same man. Nor does it help
much that all those sidings took place within a period
of a little more than a year. But the man
had been spending every available hour since the first encounter
trying to find the things again, and he lived where
he could be in good country. Within minutes after leaving
his home, all his reports seemed entirely reasonable, and there
was no indication that he was not a reliable person.
He did not gain anything by telling the stories. In fact,
he did not tell them unless asked, and was most
insistent that his name be kept secret for fear that
his neighbors would find out what he was doing. While
the rest of us were wondering how he could possibly
have seen so much, I expect he was wondering how
we could have been fooling around for so long without
seeing anything. But his most recent siding was more than
eight years ago now, and he has been hunting most
of that time. It's my personal opinion that he's telling
the truth. If he isn't, I don't know who is.
So we wanted to comment on that before we move on.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely, there's this thing, especially with the early researchers,
and John Green is obviously one of those that if
you had seen a sasquatch more than once, you're probably
a liar. And no, John Green didn't come out and
say that in this paragraph and said, he kind of
said the opposite. He said, Ah, there's plenty of reasons
to not believe him, but I kind of believe him.
Is the gist of that paragraph he just read. But
I mean, I was reading Peter Burns's book on the
Way out to the IILE Conference a few weeks ago
and he said, yeah, anybody has seen more than once.
I just don't believe, you know. It's like really and
it kind of what really reminds me of is the
Paul Freeman stuff. Honestly, I'm going to go back there again,
I believe. And I actually this is in writing this
past month, Daniel Perez, who publishes The Bigfoot Times every
single month, he did a feature on me. So I
got to do it at a written interview with him,
and I think I put something in there that was
a little maybe not prickly, but like a little surprising
to him because I basically said that I think all
the early researchers, John Green, you know, Renade Hinton, et cetera,
didn't think Paul was telling the truth because you got
so much and those early researchers got so little. Is
the deal, you know. But the fact is, just like
this Glen Thomas guy, if you're out there, you have
a way higher chance of actually doing stuff instead of
chasing sightings. See, if you're chasing sightings, which is what
most of the early researchers did, not all, but most
of them, then you are going to a place where
a bigfoot was instead of where one might be. You
know what I mean, you're going to the places where
it already was. And sure it might be in the area,
you might get lucky or something like that. But if
you're in the area, I think you have a better
chance of seeing it. I just think that if you're
out there in a general zone. And this zone where
Glen Thomas was working is very good. It's at the
Callawah River down the Klacamus is still very very good.
You can see these things more than once, is the
gist of it, because they're just regular animals. It's like
seeing a bear more than once. It's just very very rare.
And some people are lucky. I mean, Bobo's seen sasquatches
a handful of times and I don't see any problem
with it.
Speaker 3: That's well, well, that's why when I always remember that
when I was logging in it, before I knew what
was going on, I thought it was pot growers out
there screaming with us, even though it was like snow
on the ground, like late November, four thousand feet on
the north slope, like when we got those whistles and knocks,
like the lunch is getting stolen out of the crumey Like,
I just thought, like, well, you're only gonna have one encounterever,
You're not gonna hear like, You're not gonna hear them
like a bunch of times. Like so I thought, like,
it can't it can't be a big footcause you're only
gonna you're only gonna have one encounter your whole life
if you're if you're really, really really lucky.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't have to be. So, it doesn't have
to be so at all. And and and of course
John Green does explain it. He says he was out
there or he lived in a place where he could
be in good habitat in minutes, and he was out
there all the time. So there are explanations for this
sort of stuff. It's just that I'm not sure how
much those early guys were out doing stuff. I mean
what really, no one knows. Really. I know that they
followed up on a lot of reports, and they talked
to a lot of witnesses, and they did a lot
of good pioneering work. But that's really really different from
living and working in the woods and spending as much
time out there as you possibly can, trying to find
these things. You know, that's just a different way about
going about doing so. And sure they would take trips,
they would go a week or two at a time.
From what I understand, I don't have a lot of
information about their trips, because no one really does. They
didn't write a lot of this stuff down. But from
what I understand from people who knew these people firsthand,
and maybe if I went to the woods, they'd go
for a week at a time or two weeks at
a time, you know. I know, Bob Titmas spent like
a month or a month or more at a time
than a Bluff Creek, usually in October every single year,
and that's a good run. But that's still not working
in the woods. This guy was a logger. He was
out there all the time a daily, I think, for
ebly for months at a time. So it's usually driving
in and then when it starts usually true, Yeah, absolutely true.
Speaker 1: So what's interesting rereading this is he he doesn't name
Glenn Thomas in this work. He keeps him anonymous. But
before we get to the next section, because I was
kind of curious about this, and then I figured, well
if Iowa was too.
Speaker 2: When I first.
Speaker 1: Encountered it, maybe the audience would be so bobo, do
you want to tell people what a cat skinner is?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, it drives like a caterpillar bulldozer and they
punched in the roads, logging roads.
Speaker 1: I figured, with your professional experience, you'd be the best
person to tell the audience, because I remember when I
first heard this story, read this story, I had to
search what that was. So for people who don't know it,
but Green gets into quote. Here is how he told
the story of his first encounter in the mountains west
of the Klacamus Valley, southeast of Estakata, which again is Oregon.
So Glenn Thomas's narrative is quote, I was supposed to
be watching a cat skinner as he was fire trailing,
but it was awful cold, and I walked a miler
so down that trail because he had no need of
anyone at that time, and I thought I'd warm up
and see the country up where he was. It was
a cold east wind blowing a little farther down, it
was a west wind coming in. It was late fall,
the last weekend in deer season. I think in nineteen
sixty seven, there was just a mountain trail. They have
several of them up there footpaths and for horses. The
elevation was about between four and five thousand feet. I
came out lower down into the fog before I saw anything,
and the fog was freezing on the trees because it
was so cold. But if the wind would blow, the
fog would break and fall off. That made it kind
of noisy and sounded like walking. I came around a
bend well. First I noticed some rocks that were turned over.
All the other rocks were wet because of the fog,
but these rocks were dry. Then I looked up about
forty or fifty feet up on a ridge of rock,
and I saw these animals there looked like human or
just about large male, the female wasn't so large, and
a small baby, while not really small, It was moving
with them. It was standing up mostly. The two older
ones were squatting down and sort of bending as they
picked up rocks and smelled them. They were kind of careful.
They moved on for a few minutes, and then finally
the mail found possibly what he was looking for and
dug real fast down into the rocks, which were large boulders,
not the round type of rock, but the flat sharp kind.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean this is an interesting thing because
today there is no real clear road or trail there.
There just isn't there. And so as I'm listening to this,
I'm picturing the site and what it looks like. And
I know where exactly where the Glenn Thomas site is,
and if it is on a slope, and it does
go uphill more so I'm kind of curious. Okay, well,
where was this road up higher that the guy was
digging around it? And actually I've never walked past the
Glen Thomas site or too much past it, maybe fifty
hundred yards or something, but it sounds like I need
to go a few hundred yards or more up there.
They'll see what kind of roads might be up there,
what's her remnants of these trails there would be, because.
Speaker 1: It sounds like he came off the road and onto
quote just a mountain trail, several of them up there
that are footpaths and or essentially for horses.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he didn't note that he came down from where
he was supposed to be like watching the cat skinner,
And so that would imply that further up the hill
there was some roadwork being done or something.
Speaker 3: It's interesting that they were feeding within a mile of
like an active logging zone like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true too, But of course we haven't got
to the feeding part yet either. But but yeah, that's
what they were doing there when he saw them. Stay
tuned for more Bigfoot and beyond with Cliff and Bogo
will be right back after these messages.
Speaker 1: He says, quote, I could not explain why those rocks
were there. There hadn't been a slide or anything. They
were on top of the ridge, so they couldn't have
come down from anywhere. They are loose, quite a few
holes underneath them, and they are as if they had
been broken up. Definitely not the round river type rock.
But they would pick them up, and after they smelled them,
they would lay them down on top of each other.
They didn't just lay them back where they'd picked them up.
They stacked them up in piles. And when the male
had found what he was looking for, he really made
the rocks fly. The big rocks weighed fifty sixty or
even possibly one hundred pounds. He just jerked them out
with his hand. He didn't seem to take any precautions
for his safety.
Speaker 2: Later on.
Speaker 1: I looked, and there was some rock there that could
have fallen on him, but he wasn't concerned. He brought
out what appeared to be a grass nest, possibly some
stored hay that small rodents had stored there. He dug
through that and brought out the rodents. It seems they
ate them. The rodents appeared to be in hibernation or
asleep or something. There were about six or eight rodents.
The small animal I noticed only got one, but the
others got.
Speaker 2: Two or three apiece. Yeah, and there's been some talk
about what kind of rodens these are. People said they
were hybridating ground squirrels, and they could have been, of course,
having been to the Glen Thomas site, maybe half a
dozen or ten to twelve times maybe I'm not sure,
probably at least a dozen times sake, now that I'm
thinking about it. The rodents I have seen there the
most are pikas. Those are the critters that I have
seen there to assume that's probably what they were feeding upon.
But other people have said that they were ground scrolls
of some sort. Some people have other given other specific species,
you know, like gold mantle ground scrolls or something like that.
But the only roadent side is seen. There are pikahs
so and they are nesting in this taless slope. A
tailess slope is this rocky sort of slope, and if
the rocks are big enough, it's called a tailess slope.
If there are small little rocks, like maybe fist size
or so, then that's called a scree slope. But a
tailess slope is what this is. It's basically exposed bedrock
at the top of a ridge. Is where this location
or what's going on at this location.
Speaker 1: So the next part is interesting. I'm not sure exactly
what he means by this, but he says about that
time they became aware of my presence and well just
became alert. I was alongside of this trail that follows
the ridge. I didn't remember getting there, but I was
squatted down behind a small tree when I became aware
where I was. As soon as they realized I was there,
they suddenly began to move real quiet behind some low
hanging limbs on the tree.
Speaker 2: There.
Speaker 1: I didn't see them again after that, So I wonder
if he just means he was sort of like transfixed
and had gotten off the trail and come alongside the trail,
but I wasn't quite sure what he meant by it.
What do you think that he just got kind of
transfixed and was moving towards it and squatted down, and
then once they became aware of him, he realized like, oh,
I'm not standing on the trail anymore. I'm kind of
off the trail and hidden.
Speaker 2: I think that he was walking down and he noticed them,
and the next thing he knew that he was squatting
down to get a better vantage point without disturbing them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's just so consciously like went into that mud,
like you know, like you don't want to startle around,
you don't want to give yourself up, so like you
just went in like, yeah, I'm sure he was a
deer hunter or elk.
Speaker 2: I'd imagine. Yeah, that's what I think. Bobo's right on
that one. Yeah, you just squatted down to get a
better observation of these critters and you know that. And
I'm thinking he said about fifty feet or something like that.
I could see how you would say that was fifty feet.
I would put it a little bit further than that.
What do you think, Bobo, you've been there? Oh yeah, no,
I mean it's it's close.
Speaker 3: It's I mean, I will say that was that was
one of those places that was one of the like
the holy sites, you know, a big footing was like
Bluff Creek, the Potterson site, then there's the Glenn Thomas
and then a canyon and then the Peng Boucha for
the Peng Boucher temple up there in the Pollock there
was like those are like the holy sites for me.
Speaker 2: And Boggy Creek. Yeah, the Glenn Thomas site is a
really neat place to go. I used to bring when
I when I ran public expeditions for those couple of years.
That's something I would do one day as I'd take
anybody up there who wanted to go see it, because obviously,
if you're running an expedition, you can't promise the Bigfoot
is going to show up. But I could promise that
you can go see something that was reportedly done by
a Sasquatch. And I thought that was kind of a
neat thing. And it's not this the site isn't very
well known. Really. Joe Beelart actually is the guy who
wrote some notes down and I don't know, I think
he I think he's the guy that kind of rediscovered
it somehow, and I don't remember how he even did it.
I got to ask Joe that next time I see him,
found out where it was from him, and then started
going up there. And it's today. It's not exactly easy
to get to. It's a long run and then you
got to park, and then you got to walk another
quarter mile or so with maybe a third of a
mile in, which isn't very far. But if you don't
know where you're going and what to look for, you'd
probably just walk right through it. It's like the Patterson
site back in the day before they started, you know,
marking and building platforms and doing all that stuff there.
If he didn't know where it was, you would walk
right through it. And it's the same thing here with
the Glenn Thomas site.
Speaker 1: Well, I know there's photographs of Hinter there and John,
Ben and Nigel. There are there photographs of John Green there.
Speaker 2: I can't remember there's pictures of his son there.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. I definitely can picture
the pictures of Hinter in my mind, and Ben and Nigel,
and of course I'll post all those to the member
section because it was in on the track of the sasquatch.
Speaker 3: Originally before I got in the compilation got there's a
picture of Jim Green in that he's five foot ten's
in one of the holes, you know, six feet deep.
Speaker 1: I will take a picture of that page and I'll
put that for pigeons too, because yeah, it seems like
a fairly briefish observation. He continues to say, quote. I
tried to follow their tracks in the direction I thought
they would have to go, but I couldn't find any,
although there was a heavy frost there. But the next
day I found two tracks, a heel print and the
front part of the foot the toes. But they were
in a different direction the direction from which I had come,
And I never did get to connect them up with
exactly which direction they had gone, or know anything about them.
The footprints, I would say were about twelve to fifteen inches,
but there wasn't enough of the track to tell exactly.
They were possibly five inches wide, I don't know at
the widest part. I don't think they could have been six.
I didn't know if it was one of the animals
I had seen that made the footprints. You know what's
funny is I just turned the page to finish that.
And there's the picture of Jim Green in the pit
in apes among us.
Speaker 2: So yeah, well, yeah, of course I have pictures of
Bobo and I in the pits. I think melt was
Meltrom with us Bobo. Is that a separate trip? Bart? Oh, Bart,
that's right, that's right. I'll dig those out so we
can post them as well.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, the I can't remember which time I went there,
but one of the times I was there, I know
you were there, Cliff, I think it was.
Speaker 2: I think it was on the expedition.
Speaker 3: Was hearing those car doors slams sounds out there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was something about that down there, wasn't wasn't there.
I forgot about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we heard those car doors slamming and there's
like no one that there was no one around.
Speaker 2: Interesting. Interesting another another I forgot about that. Yeah, you know,
the site is interesting because when you're there, like I
don't know, we haven't gotten to the part of the
story where there with about the big pit right where
that's the one that everybody wants to stand in, you know.
It's like going to a spot it's like, well you
got to you gotta stand in there. It's the big pit.
That's the one with Bender and Augel and everybody. All
the pictures you've seen that somebody is always standing in
the big pit. I think I have a picture of
Brenda Hindon inside of it as well in the archives.
Actually I'll try to dig that up. But the pit
today is kind of a big rock slid into it
a few years ago, you know, because there's a there's
like tectonic stuff going on there Becau because there's a
lot of volcanism in the Cascades. It's a volcanic range,
and so there's some rumbling in the ground and things
move around a bit, especially with the weather and the
ice and the snow and everything that accumulates there. But
that's not the only pit. That may be the big
one where they're digging something out and stacking the rocks whatever.
But there's probably I don't know, six or eight or
ten or more stacks or rocks along the top of
that spine. And if you look around, there's more than
a dozen of these little shallow pits in along this
tyless slope, which is an interesting fact. They're because people
who say this encounter did not happen, say that these
are like you know, like vision quest pits from the
local native people, for example, people were known to do that.
I guess they would dig these like pits and like
lay in them and undergo some like ordeal, like some
sort of shamonic sort of ordeal in them, you know.
But they wouldn't make ten or twelve of these pits
by any means, and they certainly would make them that deep,
I don't think either. So that jibes really nicely with
the way that the story was told, because the animals
were moving and trying this spot, then moving a little
further and trying another spot, than trying another spot until
they hit pay dirt, eating rats.
Speaker 1: So he describes a little bit more of exactly where
he was, but then gets into some detailed physical descriptions
which are really interesting. But he said, quote, when I
left the cat Skinner, he was on Low Creek, but
I had walked to Jim's Meadows, possibly a mile or more.
I saw the footprints between where the cat Skinner was
and where I had seen the other animals. The only
time I saw their faces was when they became alert.
They gave me the impression of having a face a
little like a cat without the ears. It seemed like
the nose was much flatter, it didn't stick out like
a human's. The upper lip was very short and seemed
to be thin. I couldn't remember that it had a
chin like a human has, so somehow or other, I
felt that its face was more like a cat than
a human, which is interesting because I remember hearing a
couple of people and I couldn't really reconcile it. But
I guess hearing this description again maybe so. But I
remember one guy in North Georgia that had a siding
and I was asking for details about the face. It
was a daylight siding, and he said it had lionine features.
I was like, you mean, like a like a big cat,
like a lion, and he was like, yeah, kind of
like that. And I was like, what, you know, he
was describing a general layout and like the relationship between
the eyes, the nose, et cetera. And he's like, you know,
their mouths not like a big cat mouth. It's you know,
a different shape, but just generally like the overall shape
of the face. And I always thought that was kind
of odd. So it's interesting to revisit this in Glenn
Thomas's and go, oh, Okay, I guess I can kind
of see what he's what he's getting at there.
Speaker 2: HM, stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Clipp
and Bobo will be right back after these messages. Now,
a low Creek, I'm not familiar where that is, but
jim Meadow does come up on a search, and I'm
trying to find out how close that is to Burnt
Granite Ridge. Glen Thomas site is on Burnt Granite Ridge.
Speaker 3: Another interesting thing, whether there's like a mile away or so,
is Tarzan Springs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, almost directly underneath the Glen Thomas site is a
place called Tarzan Springs, as you mentioned, Bobo, And do
you remember the origin of that name, Bobo.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were doing the census and they were coming
through like in nineteen twenty or nineteen thirty. It was
in the twenties that the guy lived there. But there
was an old minutor by himself and he was like
a hermit guy, and he said there was these things
holl are just like Tarzan and in the movies you
know that AH or radio back then whatever it was. Yeah,
So he said there was apes up there, There was
you know these.
Speaker 2: Harry eight men that were running around wild up there. Yeah.
The version I got from Joe B. Lard, who tracked
this down, is that Joe called the I guess a
cartography office or something like that. At some point when
he was writing his excellent book, The Big V Highway
Book down there, and he spoke to somebody who's told him.
They didn't give him documentation, but they told him that
the census says you were saying at the time, they
when they were going through there, they found a hermit
living there and he was living with the apes, is
what he was told. Now. Of course, at this particular time,
Tarzan of the Apes was the big all the rage.
You know, the book had just come out recently and
everybody who had been reading it, he was like Star
Wars or something. But you know, back when people read
so Tarzan of the Apes was all the rage. Everybody
was reading it, everybody was stoked about it. It was
the book to read. And so when they found out
about this guy living with the apes at this spring,
they named the place Tarzan Springs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you go northeast of jim Meadow, there is
a low creek, but the low has an e on
the end of it, like a family name right right.
Speaker 2: I just found that Jim Meadows is south of the
General Glenn Thomas site by maybe a mile or something
like that at the most, and then over to the
east of it is Low Creek Lwe not low as
it's spelled in the book. But then again, Clackamus is
spelled differently sometimes in John Green's book too, so as
opposed to the accepted spe of today.
Speaker 1: This part I think is really interesting where he's describing
physically what he saw. But he said, quote, the male
was darker than the female, a dirty brown, where the
female was a buckskin or fawn colored animal. The male
had much longer hair on his shoulders, head, and neck
and hung in strings like you see on an angora goat.
He was much heavier in the shoulders than the female.
From just above the hips, the male got larger. He
had a very wide small of the back. From there
on up he just got bigger and bigger. They had
very rounded or stooped shoulders. The head was set lower
on the shoulders than a humans. They don't seem to
have the next stand up as we do.
Speaker 2: All that jives obviously, Yeah, yeah, heavy heavy muscles up
in the shoulders, you know, that all makes sense.
Speaker 1: Quote, most of the time they were not standing but
were squatting down and leaning forward to pick up the rocks.
This one that was digging just seemed to go right
on down. I don't remember seeing him get up, but
as he was down here, he was just digging and
kept going on down. And well, at that time, I
couldn't see exactly where he was because I was down
and they were up a little bit on the side
of this rock which kind of levels off some, and
he went down, and so I couldn't see exactly what
he was doing in there, but I did see when
he came out. At that time, I was a little
bit nervous. I'm not sure now about half of it
seemed like a bad dream.
Speaker 2: For a while.
Speaker 1: I just couldn't believe what was happening. It just couldn't be.
Speaker 2: But it is.
Speaker 1: And that's obviously a common thing that we've talked about.
That's sort of like dissociation, disorientation, confusion, the kind of
cognitive shock that people have when they're trying to suss
out what it is that they're looking at in these encounters. Yeah,
in a lot of these cases, the investigators of your
tended to remove a lot of the phenomenological elements of
these reports. They would just stick to the observation, which
is fine, you know, you want to know what was seen,
you know, just the facts, just the details, leave out
the sort of internal experience. But this is obviously a
verbatim translation, you know, a verbatim transcription of the interview
with Glenn Thomas, which I will have links. The audio
interviews are available online thanks to Todd Prescott, so I
have that link in the show notes. There's a Sasquatch
Chronicles link that has all the multi parts of the interview,
so I'll just link to that so you can get.
Speaker 2: To Todd via Wes via us.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I'm kind of glad that Green left that
line in there because it does give you a little
bit of insight into what the experience was like for him,
Like he was transfixed. He's kind of confused about, like
how did I even get here off the trail, squatted
down behind the stump. He's talking about how nervous he was.
And then for a while I was like, was that
a bad dream? I couldn't believe what was happening, the
impossibility of it, et cetera. But then with the rest
of the verbatim portion. Green asks him, you know, did
you notice the hands at all, and Glynn said quote,
I noticed that it had hands. I did not notice
if it had thumbs. I couldn't tell from the way
it worked. It didn't seem to use the thumb, which
I thought was pretty interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it kind of falls in line with the thumb
being potentially parallel to the rest of the other fingers,
especially when they're picking up rocks and whatever else, because
you would expect the thumb to be angled off to
the side pretty strongly, like in a human or something
like that. But that's not necessarily the case with the Sasquatch,
although I do think that their hands can some recent
handprints I've gotten some casts I've obtained in the last
six months strongly suggesting that the sasquatch thumb is hyper mobile.
I'd like more evidence of this, of course, but it
seems to be very, very mobile and be able to
twist around into some interesting positions that are very unhuman like.
Speaker 1: And to conclude the verbatim portion, Glenn Thomas had said, quote,
I didn't see any knees projecting when it squatted. They
were in an awkward position because of the rocks, and
they couldn't just squat down like we would on a floor.
They would be on different levels and off too far
to be comfortable. That's about as close as I could
explain it. When they went from place to place, they
would shift in position according to the terrain the mail well. Actually,
both of them seemed to be moving in a certain direction,
possibly from tracing the small rodents. I thought possibly it
was the scent left by the rodents coming up through
the rocks, because it was not a runway that they
could have been picking. Because they were just picking the
rocks up any place, and as they picked it up,
they'd turn it over, smell it, and then lay it
on the stack. They left it very definitely in a pile.
They would leave anywhere from three to fifteen or twenty
in one pile as they would reach back, and then
oh six or eight feet farther they would leave another pile.
Speaker 2: It's interesting that they're using their sense of smell so much,
because that's not really the dominant sense for most primates,
for primates in general. Actually, I mean, of course, they
I use my smell all the time, don't get me wrong.
And they would certainly use their sense of smell more
so than most domesticated primates humans in other words, But
I think that's an interesting aspect to the story there,
that they're smelling it before putting it down. And what
were they smelling for. Probably the presence of like urine, honestly,
like you know, rodent urine or something like that, or
to the nesting or something like that.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, you would think that you'd have to rely
on scent to some degree for those supplemental things that
you couldn't just easily see or hear. I guess you
couldn't really hear them if they were stationary in there
and their little dens or mittens or whatever they would
be called nests, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, So he goes on.
Speaker 1: There's a little bit of a segue before he describes
Thomas's other sidings, but Green says, quote, in other conversations
I had with him, he mentioned that the small creature
seemed to be afraid of the male and always kept
on the other side of his mother, away from it.
He described their method of eating the rodents as being
the same as a person eating a banana, except without
peeling them. Neither of the big ones helped the small one.
It had to find one in the hay for itself.
Renee and I obviously reneede to Hindon and I arranged
to have him show us the place where this was
supposed to have happened, and we did not allow him
any time to get anything ready for us. Sure enough,
the piles of rocks and the deep hole were there,
and the hole went down about five feet and was
as steep sided as a well and just about straight down.
I won't say a man could not have made it,
because men can do surprising things, but I don't think
it would have been easy.
Speaker 2: Well, in that picture that is in the book where
John's son is in the hole, those are the two men.
That is Renee to Hinden on the left, and that
is Glenn Thomas in the middle. And Glenn Thomas can
be seen in a documentary as well. I think he's
I think he was in that one that the BBC made,
if I remember right, and he's the guy wearing the
hard hat at the logging site, but he's never identified
as Glenn Thomas. Really, I didn't know that. Yeah, that's
Glenn Thomas. Huh.
Speaker 3: I think he's in two two document old do I
think he's in two of those old documentaries.
Speaker 2: I think Soaks In that one. I believe he's wearing
a hard hat if I remember right. It's been a
couple of years since I've seen it, but in that
picture there in the middle, he has that kind of
floppy looking hat with the brim that pushed up. I
think I've seen him wearing that at some point as well.
I just don't know where I saw it. I wish
I did, but I just don't know.
Speaker 3: Do you know is reading reading it from the original
book on the track of the Sasquatch. I'm listening to
you guys read and like this that you got. There's
way more information in your your copy.
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, because see I'm reading from Sasquatch the apes
among us. So this must be like the more verbati
interviews than just some like truncated edited version totally.
Speaker 2: But it's well, it's just about that about the feeding
and the baby being. That's that.
Speaker 3: I always thought this was like such a great insight
into like Bigfoot family structure and you know, like the
role of of you know, the parents and the offspring,
and how I've talked to a.
Speaker 2: Couple other people that have that have this three people.
Speaker 3: In the last forty almost years that have seen family
groups interact, and they all said that the little one
kept like would keep the mother between it and the
and the big adult male. And I don't know if
that's maybe like a lion thing, like if lion's like,
you know, maybe want to kill a young one, if
if it's not theirs, or you know, is it just
because like you know, I don't know, does that mean
that wasn't the father? Do they know like that or
it's just it's interesting.
Speaker 2: Kathy Strain brought that up one time during a presentation
when she was talking about the Harryman pictographs. And the
Harryman pictographs, a large male is on the right hand
side and the female is off a distance to the left,
and on the other side of the female is the
juvenile sasquatch, the juvenile hairy man, And she brought that
up as well, that the juvenile is a long ways
away from the male, and she drew a parallel between
this and that and the Glenn Thomas site or the sighting.
I should say, so an interesting correlation there, because you know,
in my research areas I find the female and a
juvenile footprints often associated in the same general area, but
almost never find the big male. So maybe it's just
a function of the way they roll, you know, like
mom and kid are going to be hanging together no
matter if the big guys around or not.
Speaker 1: I think that jibs with a few other reports. There
was a really interesting one that a guest that Wes
had on a while back that was first like a
member's only episode, but then he released it for the mainstream,
and I'll link to that in the show notes. But
it was a very interesting story and the cynical part
of me, like when I first heard it, I thought, oh,
this is someone like reiterating the Glenn Thomas siding in
a modern context. But then there were other elements of
the story that you know, I won't try to like
explain here, but I just thought, Okay, there might be
actually something to this. But there are shade that is
reminiscent that like, well, if that guy's telling the truth,
he's witnessing some of the same behaviors. But it's definitely
worth a listen. Let the listeners make up their own minds,
but I will link that in the show notes as well.
Speaker 3: Having Canada, you're talking about absolutely was that was such
a good one.
Speaker 2: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
Will be right back after these messages.
Speaker 3: You know what's funny, I was talking about the pictograph
on the mew while tribe is my good friend down
this original woman down in Australia was out walking about way.
Speaker 2: It was his way.
Speaker 3: It was going way way out where there no one lives,
and he found some old cave paintings and there's one
that's very similar to that with the male female and
the young one.
Speaker 2: Some of you guys, we'd love to see that.
Speaker 3: I'm sure pigeons would have loved to see those two.
Oh yeah, yeah, so yeah, it's really interesting. I said
to County Strange. She she wasn't super excited. I thought
she'd be all stoked, like well that's rabbit. She was
just kind of like, that's cool, she said, it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Well, like we'd mentioned, you know, that siding is pretty
famous the observation of moving the rocks and eating the
ground rodents. But like we mentioned, it wasn't the only
one that he reported. And like Green said, you know,
he said, four of the most credible reports I've taken
were all from the same person. And you know, I
like the way the Green frame it, like if he's
not telling the truth, I don't know that I've met
anyone who is. So he does sort of like in
a truncated way, describe the other siding, So Green says quote.
The other sidings were all in the same general area.
In the spring of nineteen sixty eight, he was looking
for a place to take some siding in shots with
a gun when he noticed, at a distance of about
one hundred feet in animal eating leaves off a willow bush.
He climbed up on the bank by the road to
get a better look. The creature was a female, with
breasts like a woman's, but in a lower position on
the chest. He estimated it to be only five or
six feet high, but it was very heavily built and
covered with short, dark brown hair. As he watched it
strip the leaves and shove them in its mouth, he
had the impression that its thumbs were not used. They
seemed to be farther back on the hand than a
human thumb. He watched it only a few seconds before
it noticed him and ran off into the trees. Although
not many miles from the location, of the first sighting,
it was at a much lower elevation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, once again, I love the thumb observations. Those were
just so powerful in so many ways because they reinforce
what has been seen and the foot in the handprint cast,
you know, and I just love observations that sort of thing.
And in nineteen sixty seven there were a grand total
of zero handprint casts in the world. Zero. The first
one was obtained at the Bossburg site by Ivan Marx
the verse two. Actually, so there was a sketch of
one or where's that? That was sixty eight I think?
Actually when was the Fort Bragg one? Oh, that was
sixty That was even earlier, so there was sixty three.
I think it was so that there was a sketch
of one, but he had no way of knowing what
the thumb was like at that point. So these observations
by Glenn Thomas, I guess predict future finds in a way,
which is always a compelling aspect to any sort of
observation or find or footprint or anything like that. If
it can predict future data, well that that's a pretty
strong evidence there.
Speaker 1: So that would have been his second siding. And so
regarding the third siding green says quote. For the next
half year he hunted without success, but in November he
hit the jackpot. Crossing a ridge at about thirty five
hundred feet, he found two sets of tracks, both about
sixteen inches long, and followed them for several miles in
the snow, going down a logging road. They were not
always on the road, but kept coming back to it.
Eventually they reached a level where the snow was petering out,
and he lost them in the woods. The next day
he went back to where he had left off. While
casting about from more tracks, he saw something dark on
the snow across a small open area. Using binoculars, at
a distance of less than two hundred yards, he found
himself looking at two sasquatches sleeping out in the open,
with their backs to the sky and their knees and
elbows drawn in under their bodies. He settled in for
a long vigil, and they slept for about an hour
with very little movement. Then one got up and.
Speaker 2: Then the other.
Speaker 1: They went to a creek a few feet away and
began pulling up and eating water plants. Both were obviously females,
with more pendulous breasts than the one he had seen before,
and one appeared to have a swelling in the genital
area and kept rubbing itself. It also gave an occasional
loud call, which he described in a computer interview as
quote like a scream in an echo chamber end quote.
He also saw one defecated in the creek. It stepped
up on a wide, low stump that was in the water, quote,
bent forward about forty five degrees with its knees slightly bent,
and let fly. Then it wiped itself with one hand
and licked the hand briefly.
Speaker 4: That's like money maker and the pall, not the licking part.
Obviously didn't did Didn't he say that she lifted her fingers. Yeah,
like wipped herself and licked her fingers. Huh huh, yeah,
it said. Then it wiped itself with one hand and
licked the hand briefly. I mean even before that, you know,
there's there are multiple descriptions of sasquatch is sleeping on
the ground with their chests down, like almost in a ball,
curled up with their legs underneath them. And that's kind
of what he describes, like quote, their backs to the sky,
knees and elbows drawn in under their bodies as they
were sleeping, and that's a pretty common thing. And there's
artistic depictions of like the Almas, the Almasti, the Barmano,
like some of the Eurasian and Asian wild men depicted
in exactly that position that the indigenous people would say, Oh,
this is how they sleep.
Speaker 2: And when you think about it, is that is the
best way to retain your heat is by shrinking up
into a ball. And dogs do it when it's cold.
They get bundled up in the smallest little ball they can.
What they don't realize, of course, and sasquatches don't realize
is Caesar either, is that they're minimizing surface area so
the heats can't escape out into the environment. And Glenn
Thomas himself said that he was walking through snow in
the area, so it must have been quite cold in
the area. So it makes perfect sense at a sasquatch
or two in this case would be sleeping in that position.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't think primates or apes have a
quote unquote mating season. I could be totally wrong about that,
or you know, if it's a rut, or if there's
just individuals going to estrus at certain times, but it
sounds like maybe that's what he's witnessing or describing. But
then again, the you know, defecating and licking the hand, Like,
I think there's a lot in there that the squeamish
person would think, like, oh, that's just someone throwing in
some gross things for kicks or something like that. But
then if no one had ever seen anything that hinted
at mating, estrous or defecation, that'd be pretty weird if
you're talking about a living animal species, right, So I
don't know, I don't find those things like problematic, but
it is a little weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true.
Speaker 1: But it is an interesting observation of like two females
traveling together, sleeping in the open together, feeding together.
Speaker 2: It's interesting.
Speaker 1: But I just know, like I can just hear in
my mind a certain portion of the audience sort of
like cringing, you know, those descriptions. But again, this is
what the claimant said. And I do think it would
be weirder if in the entire corpus of Sasquatch Siding
reports there was no mention of anything like this whatsoever.
It'd be like, oh, it's probably more folkloric then, because
if it was a biological thing, you would expect people
to see things that are indicative of biological processes and anatomy,
et cetera.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course taking a dump in the river
that makes might explain away a lot of the lack
of fecal evidence as well. And if there is.
Speaker 1: Something to like estris or seeking a mate, then maybe
that is you know. Again, it gave an occasional loud call.
So Green concluded that side of by saying, quote, after
feeding for about half an hour, working their way up
the creek from him, they lay down again in a
new location for about an hour. Then both got up
and crossed the road. The female with the swelling climbed
a few feet up in a dead yew tree and whaled.
Then both moved off into the timber above the road.
So maybe that does indicate something like searching for a
potential mate, because it's an estris who knows.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they have to find each other somehow.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's what we're all signaling when we do house.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm doing that on purpose if I can. Yeah,
come hither. Look, I think Bobo calls it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So he concludes that siding, by, saying he estimated
them to be only about six feet high but very heavy.
They were both dark brown, covered with shaggy, dirty hair.
When they laid down, they did not seek shelter, although
there were trees nearby and at one time there was
snow falling. After they left, the observer went home. He
said he was too spooked to go over to where
they'd been. The next day there was new snow.
Speaker 2: I'd love to know where that was, because I know
it's the same general area, and I know the area.
Yeah pretty okay. I didn't know where low Creek was,
but I know the callaw Wash area pretty well. It'd
be fascinating to find out if that was ever marked
down where the location was.
Speaker 1: So regarding the final sight in green said quote, his
final encounter took place only about a month later. He
was following some elk tracks walking on top of old
deep snow when he happened to look back and saw
right behind him, only about ten feet away, a scruffy looking,
dark brown sasquatch at least nine feet tall. It had
both arms raised in what he took to be a
threatening way, and he scrambled to try to get a
revolver out from under his rain clothes. However, the animal
quickly ran and duck behind the roots of a blown
down tree, and since it was leaving anyway, he did
not shoot at it. Instead, as the computer form notes,
he quote left the area running in quote. His impressions
of that individual are pretty spotty, but he realized afterwards
that it had a mild smell quote like an old outhouse,
and that it also had a long upper lip that
fluttered as it blew through its mouth. He also noticed
that its hands were very large and long, but with
the thumb quote not up where a human thumb is
in quote. He decided at that time not to hunt
in the woods alone anymore. But I don't think he's
kept to that decision. The thing certainly could have harmed
him if it had meant to. He even speculated afterwards
that it might have been a very old animal with
failing senses and might have mistaken him for one of
its own kind. I mean, that one's pretty I don't
want to say questionable, but ten feet away is pretty close,
you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to wonder about the estimates. Like Eve
when he says I walked a mile down the road,
really a mile. Maybe maybe a mile's a little further
than what lot of people throw around it as a mile.
I think so ten feet away, maybe it's twenty, maybe
it's thirty. I don't know. Maybe it was closer, but
how did it get so close? And and and it's
a pretty big one. But he describes in a different
manner than the other large male that he saw up
on Burnt Grantite, So who knows, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, when he talks about the lip like flapping, like
did I totally heard that when I had my my
for sure first crazy encounter, Yeah, dude, that's exactly what.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what.
Speaker 3: Happened that I could hear the lip Here's like it
was like the same, like like what the squatses doing that?
That big male is doing that that that night, like
blow on making this lip flap like a wrse. That's
I could totally picture it like it was. It was
such an obvious sound, like he did a great job
describing it. Like the visual of that, well I couldn't
see it, but what it sounded like.
Speaker 1: That is really interesting because there's you know, all those
reports about this sort of like fluttering, gurgling sputtering sound.
And what's funny is like, I didn't get to talk
to Minzenski about this, but I heard that sound once
and it was in the context of going through a
big bag of trash, and so at first I was like,
am I hearing a bear and whatever? It was probably
looking for food, but it was making this like sputtering
sound that maybe the closest thing you could call it
is purring. And then I heard an interview with Minzensky
years later saying like, in his first encounter he heard
this purring sound and that a Shoshone person told him like, oh, yeah,
that's the sound they make when they're looking for food.
And I thought, oh, that's pretty weird. So I'd love
to tell John that. But maybe maybe that's the same.
Maybe that's how that sound is produced as something like that.
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe that guy sitting next to you on the
plane was actually looking for food and making a purring noise.
They're triggering me cloth Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and
Beyond with Cliff and Bobo will be right back after
these messages.
Speaker 1: But Green concludes this overview of Glenn Thomas's sidings by saying,
quote that was his last sighting report, and in recent
years he has not seen any evidence that the creatures
are around the area, although there have been sightings by
other people, and he says, including one in the Coolawash
River in nineteen seventy three quoted earlier in this chapter.
The last thing he did find in February of nineteen
sixty nine were the tracks of two creatures, one with
a fourteen inch foot the other eleven inch, that came
out of the forest into a field where they appeared
to have been eating the lower stems of clumps of grass.
Tracks were made during the night more than once, but
then he found them taking off across country, eventually getting
out of the snow. He then backtracked into the woods
and found that the animals had been sleeping just a
short distance out of sight. What particularly interested him was
that the two tracks were always near each other, but
never write together. The winter during which all those observations
were made was an unusually cold one in northwestern Oregon,
with an exceptional amount of snow. Bearing in mind the
hazards of basing too much on reports from a single source,
there's a wealth of information in those observations. They picture
creatures that do not have an effective opposable thumb, or
if they do, don't use it much. There are three
accounts of sasquatches actually eating something rock rodents, willow leaves,
and water weeds, and circumstantial evidence that they eat grass stems.
The observation of the infant avoiding the male suggests that
the trio was not a family group, and the tracks
in the field suggest possibly a juvenile still hanging around
its mother, but not welcome. The other pair was made
up of two adult females, again suggesting that family groups
are not the norm. Female chimpanzees have to put up
with large sexual swellings when in heat, but other apes
do not, and there is no other report of a
sasquatch in that condition. That, plus the calling, indicates reproductive
arrangements unlike those of any other ape, but perhaps suitable
for a species very thinly distributed. On that point, however,
note that he describes a total of seven individuals, all different,
and tracks that appear to belong to two or more,
all in an area of about two hundred square miles. Finally,
one of them defecating into running water at the same
place where it was eating might indicate a complete lack
of concern about such bodily functions, or it might possibly
be a set pattern of behavior. If so, that would
certainly cut down the chances of collecting sasquatch droppings. It
would also give people who safeguard domestic watersheds from pollutions
something to think about.
Speaker 2: It's a great way to end the chapter.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he forgot the other food sources was listening to
food sources eating its own poop.
Speaker 2: That is true, Colpa Faci, Yep, gorillas do it. Why
not sasquatches give it another chance to extract those nutrients
out of the food.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it really is a fascinating case, and
it probably is the first. There's one other little reference
in Sanderson's book to a guy in Oregon. It's I
think it might be like the first reference to anything
like a habituation or a long term repeat visit case
where he says, like, I got a very strange letter,
and I don't know what to make of it. But
there's a guy in Oregon who claims that, you know,
there's sasquatches showing up on his farm every once in
a while, and you know, he goes through the same
sort of thing, like I have a hard time believing
someone that had more than one siding, but beyond that one,
this has to be probably the first of such reports,
you think.
Speaker 2: Or in print anyway. Yeah, well, so prolifically seen, I guess,
you know, like that's four sightings over a year or so,
or a couple of years anyway, that's a pretty good
run cold. But you think of situations like Ape Canyon
they saw it more than once, but that's different. Yeah,
I think it's a different scenario there. And I'd have
to question John Green's assertion that they're all different individuals
that were observed. Don't really know, because the bewilderment and
the astonishment that Glenn Thomas might have been experiencing while
observing these animals, maybe a couple of these at least
were the same animal that he just didn't notice it
or something thing. You know, maybe it looked bigger when
it was up closer than far away. Who knows, Maybe
that one was the big male for all we know.
We just don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would be really interesting to see if somewhere
in his notes he has any location details about where
these other sightings occurred in and around there.
Speaker 2: But you know, two two hundred square miles. That's yeah,
that's pretty big area. It is a big area.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it would be worth digging in. Now,
it's been a long time since I've listened to that
full audio interview that again, I'll link in the show notes.
I will go back and re listen to that and
to see if there's other details or or if the
gist of it is in this chapter, to see what
else is there. But I will definitely have to go
revisit that BBC documentary. So you're talking about the nineteen
sixty eight Patterson John Napier documentary.
Speaker 2: I believe so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder how anyone got a hold of Glenn Thomas.
Maybe Glenn Thomas got ahold of other researchers before John
Green or actually no.
Speaker 3: He says that someone came out there talk asking the
crew if they've seen anything, and he blanked it out.
In the original he says that a bigfoot researcher came
in contact with them looking for He contacted three different
logging crews seeing if any of them had seen anything
like this.
Speaker 2: Well, I remember during this time there was a central
source of information in Es Takada and Millie Kiggins. Yeah,
she was there. She was a barber, my hairdresser or something.
She's a barber in es Takada, and she was collecting stories,
and so she was the main contact for all of
these people, including John Green whatever else, from what I understand,
from what I've gathered, not only through reading the John
Green stuff of course, but also looking through the Barbara
Watson notes and even talking to Joe Beelard, who had
a chance to meet her before she passed.
Speaker 1: I had never heard that name.
Speaker 2: That's really interesting. I was not aware of that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I was going to ask Bobo, since you're
looking at older one of Green's books, you know, because
this is, like you said, Apes among Us is kind
of a compilation of earlier writings and then expanding on those.
I was wondering if that older example you were reading
had any more details.
Speaker 2: That's interesting. Well, I'm going to be headed back up
there this summer. So you haven't been there. Have you
met the Glen Thomas site.
Speaker 1: No, every time that I was in the callar Wash
with you, there was still snow up there, and so
I think we tried one time and there was just
no way of getting close to it with vehicles, and
so we would have had to walk pretty good ways
to get up there above the snow, because I was
only out in the Callar Wash like a handful of times.
I loved that area, but each time it tended to
be like May or June, and so they were still
snow up there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little it could be a little early
up there. Yeah, well you're kind of if you're gonna
be out in September, there won't be snow there. Then
I can take you down there. That's easy. I mean,
it's easy enough to get to. Yeah, it's a wonderful area.
So well, that's awesome. Pretty you'll love it, and everybody
should go there. It's like one of these places you
just should go there if you're in the neighborhood.
Speaker 3: Well, I found I found that part says uh. He
says after this is Glen Thomas speaking, or John's been
running about Glenn Thomlins. After the animals disappeared, I washed
and looked a few minutes and then decided I didn't
want to go in that direction, so I just headed back.
Speaker 2: I didn't tell that cat skinner about seeing them. I
didn't tell anyone about it until blank blank blank.
Speaker 3: Asked me asked me to ask among my crews maybe
some of them had seen them. That was the only
time I ever mentioned it to any of the fellows
out there, because I didn't want everyone to think I
was a nut or something.
Speaker 1: Oh so Green like omitted the name.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it might have been, well, it might have been
Millie Higgins. I'm not sure. Maybe Patterson was there, but
I but again, she this woman, Millie Kiggins was the
main contact for bigfoot information in Esticada around this time,
Like everybody seemed to know her, and man, I'd love
to know where her notes ended up. Yeah, that'd been
really really cool. Yeah, because there was some good information
being flown around or thrown around at that time. And
I'll have to double check. I have a bunch of
these index cards, both in the Barbara Wasawson collection and
also doctor Meldrum's collection that came from John Green during
his earlier attempts at forming a network of citing reports
and whatever else from researchers throughout the country. Really, and
some of those locations, like everybody knows about the well
maybe not everybody, but one of the classic cases of
this time time was also from Millie Kiggins. I might
add about these tracks that were found on the Roaring
River area and say, well, I wonder where in the
Roaring River because that's a super good area. I've been
to the bottom of it. It's a fantastic wilderness area,
et cetera. It turns out that Arbara Wasson had GPS
coordinates for it, not that there was GPS, and but
she had the coordinates for the location. So I got
to learn a little bit where that was. So there's
a lot of good information out there. I suspect that
has not seen the light of day because the early
researchers were keeping it quiet for whatever reason. They didn't
want to spoil the spot. And I totally don't blame
them at all. But you know, after sixty years or so,
I think it's probably okay to let those things out.
Speaker 1: I will definitely compile a whole bunch of stuff to
post in the membership section when this episode goes out,
like the photos Cliff that you have of you and Bobo,
Bart Melton, whoever else at the site, the historical photos
Hinter John Binnernagel, and then the links. Like I said,
I'll put links in the show notes so anybody can
access them to the audio interviews and other things, and
the few the people that have been up to the
site and taking pictures, So I'll link to that stuff too.
So there's a wealth of information about that one siding.
But yeah, if you found anything about where those additional
ones where, they'd be super cool to see to try
to plot out on a map, like actual locations and distances.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I did look at the Meldrum files yesterday to
see if there was a file on Glenn Thomas and
there was not, unfortunately.
Speaker 1: Oh well, I know there's a few squatchy things that
have happened in the field for you. I was out
in the field recently and had some very bizarre things happen,
which I'm about to send you a link shortly Bobo
to check out. So maybe we can hop over to
the member section and cover those times.
Speaker 3: I see those Yali family pictograph photos.
Speaker 2: Yeah, those are pretty rad. But take a look at
that in a minute.
Speaker 3: Okay, So I guess that's it, folks. We did a
little deep dive into the Glenn Thomas site at a
clock of this Oregon.
Speaker 2: That's one of my favorites.
Speaker 3: I guess one of those illuminating Like John Green said,
so one of the most illuminating reports. It's still one
of the most illuminarty reports on sasquash behavior family groups though,
I mean, it's just it's just a.
Speaker 2: Real wealth of information. Love that love that report.
Speaker 3: Well, thanks for tuning in, Hit like, hit share, and
until next week, y'all keep it squatchy.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.
If you liked what you heard, please rate and review
us on iTunes, subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you
get your podcasts, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram
at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast. You can find us on
Twitter at Bigfoot and Beyond that's an N in the middle,
and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag
Bigfoot and Beyond