Speaker 1: I'm Ali.
Speaker 2: I came out after twenty years of marriage and I
Speaker 2: have three kids.
Speaker 3: I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
Speaker 3: out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 2: This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
Speaker 2: and victories that.
Speaker 3: Come with it when coming out feels like the end
Speaker 3: of the world, but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 4: This is the Lesbian Chronicles. Welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles,
Speaker 4: where we are super pumped to have doctor Lorie Sulpisio
Speaker 4: with us again. Thank you so much for being willing
Speaker 4: to come back, doctor Laurie.
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It feels like even in that time period, we've had
Speaker 2: a million relationship things come up.
Speaker 1: So that's busy woman over here. This feels like a
Speaker 1: good time.
Speaker 5: How have you been, I've been well, I've been well.
Speaker 5: It's like it's a you know, come of the end
Speaker 5: of that academic year right now, and so just kind
Speaker 5: of the excitement for summer and you know, warmer weather coming.
Speaker 5: I think it's good. Everyone and everyone on my side
Speaker 5: here is excited.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, will your kids be home this summer?
Speaker 5: Yeah, so my my football player on the East Coast
Speaker 5: will come home for a little bit and he's got
Speaker 5: to go back, you know, to he'll be he'll be
Speaker 5: back for going on a big family vacation to Italy.
Speaker 5: So it's super exciting all night. And I have the
Speaker 5: only daughter, but all the nephews, so there's nine grandkids,
Speaker 5: my sisters, you know, my parents were all going to Italy.
Speaker 5: You know, it's aligned because the kids are getting older,
Speaker 5: so it's harder to schedule with them. But yeah, so
Speaker 5: Ione's really looking forward to this trip.
Speaker 1: It's very white.
Speaker 2: Lotus of you guys, the Italy adventure.
Speaker 6: Right, you need a reality show to follow you?
Speaker 5: Oh right, yeah? Maybe, yeah, for sure, we'll stream something.
Speaker 5: We'll see let's.
Speaker 2: Dive in because we know we don't have you too long,
Speaker 2: so we have a few topics that we.
Speaker 1: Want to get into. I guess, Melissa, do you want
Speaker 1: to introduce the first one?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Well, the one that I was really kind of thinking
Speaker 3: about recently is that trusting your own intuition. You know,
Speaker 3: I think really just as we get older, and especially
Speaker 3: with how like therapies we've all become, it becomes this
Speaker 3: like battle between your.
Speaker 6: Brain, your heart, and your gut.
Speaker 3: And really, I think most of the time my gut
Speaker 3: is correct in the situations, but I don't trust it.
Speaker 3: You know, I went my whole life without doing therapy
Speaker 3: up until my late thirties, and so it's it's become
Speaker 3: like now I have like these words to therapize what
Speaker 3: I'm feeling, but then I'm having a hard time carrying
Speaker 3: out what needs to happen.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think, you know, part of
Speaker 5: it is, well, our situation is a great thing, and
Speaker 5: I think we sometimes need to listen to it. I
Speaker 5: think what maybe has happened though, is that because of
Speaker 5: you know, therapy speakers everywhere, and we've got all this
Speaker 5: information that now, like we second guests, we second guess ourselves,
Speaker 5: wondering is this narcissistic behavior? Is this god to pendit behaviors?
Speaker 5: This pass the best of them by being gas lit?
Speaker 5: It's like, oh my gosh. Yes. And not to dismiss
Speaker 5: those behaviors, I mean they are real, they're problematic, but
Speaker 5: I think we've amplified some of the tendencies and put
Speaker 5: and projected them onto people, and now we're almost hyper suspicious.
Speaker 5: You know, every little thing, you know, isn't gaslighting, Every
Speaker 5: little kind of selfish choice isn't narcissistic behavior. I mean,
Speaker 5: you know, it's like I think we need to relax
Speaker 5: a little bit in terms of all the second guessing.
Speaker 5: But then also there's a way of checking our own
Speaker 5: story and our own sort of meaning making with what's
Speaker 5: driving our intuition, you know, And what I mean by
Speaker 5: that is do we have a realistic sense of rel
Speaker 5: relationship of our self of the other person? You know,
Speaker 5: Like are we basing this intuition and the trust on
Speaker 5: kind of accuracy or on you know, what's real or
Speaker 5: has it become kind of a fantasy for what we
Speaker 5: hope to have?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like how do you do that?
Speaker 2: Like that sometimes feels hard because it's like, even with
Speaker 2: one person, I will own one moment I feel like
Speaker 2: the data is telling me all this positive, great stuff,
Speaker 2: and then it's like one thing happens and I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh no, there we go again, Like it's the data
Speaker 2: is contradicting what I thought, and then that snowballs into
Speaker 2: my new reality.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I wonder, though, is that really intuition? Because
Speaker 5: I would say your intuition or your inner knowing is
Speaker 5: almost more energetic. You know, It's like this kind of
Speaker 5: you enter a space and you immediately like, oh, we connect,
Speaker 5: like I just feel it, you know, whether it's romantic
Speaker 5: or platonic, just this is this is a good person.
Speaker 5: This is a person I can hang out with. I
Speaker 5: like their energy, you know. And then there might be
Speaker 5: somebody that you meet and you're just like like, you know,
Speaker 5: Spidey sense is just telling me there's just something about
Speaker 5: them to me. That's that kind of energetic inner knowing.
Speaker 5: So the things I think what you're describing is where
Speaker 5: kind of the cognitive I mean, this is where our
Speaker 5: cognitions are maybe taking over the thoughts that we're having
Speaker 5: about one thing goes wrong that means the whole thing
Speaker 5: is going to become a disaster. They do one little thing,
Speaker 5: you know, they don't call me back, they look a
Speaker 5: little anxious, they're a little avoidant. Oh my gosh, they're
Speaker 5: always going to be insecure and come at me, or
Speaker 5: oh my gosh, they're gonna withdraw every time. It's hard.
Speaker 5: That may not be true, right, So part of it,
Speaker 5: I think is checking our thoughts when we have one
Speaker 5: of those moments and wonder, what are we thinking about
Speaker 5: this situation and are we spinning it out into something
Speaker 5: that it really may not even be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good point.
Speaker 2: I like what you said about the energy because it
Speaker 2: is true, like if you're just like walk into a
Speaker 2: dinner party. I've had situations Melissa's usually with me, where
Speaker 2: I've walked in and said we went to a brunch together.
Speaker 2: This wasn't even not long ago. I walked out of
Speaker 2: the brunch. I looked at her and said, that was
Speaker 2: fucking awful. My nervous system is wrecked, like I can't
Speaker 2: sit with thee like that was so bad for me,
Speaker 2: Like I did not enjoy that, and she was kind
Speaker 2: of like, yeah, it was a little off for me too.
Speaker 2: And then I've had other situations where we've had something
Speaker 2: happen and I'm like, that was a blast, Like I
Speaker 2: felt myself. I felt, you're right, like I don't know
Speaker 2: that we pay it. I go to my head, what
Speaker 2: are the facts? What are the facts versus like what
Speaker 2: has be Yeah, and even interesting, like what are the facts?
Speaker 5: It's so funny because when I work with couples, they'll
Speaker 5: have a very different set of facts. Yeah, have the
Speaker 5: same situation. Part of it is like, of course, there's
Speaker 5: the time of day that it happened, where were we
Speaker 5: what was said. I mean, so there could be some facts, right,
Speaker 5: but then we fill in the blanks, which is, well,
Speaker 5: well you were being flirty. It's like, well is that
Speaker 5: a fact or is that an opinion about an interpretation
Speaker 5: for how somebody sees somebody's behavior. Right, So I think
Speaker 5: part of it is even things in our head. We
Speaker 5: think it's facts, but we're filling in the blanks with
Speaker 5: our own experience, our own interpretation of the situation, and
Speaker 5: then we're making meaning of that. And if our tendency
Speaker 5: is to make meaning like from a scarcity model or
Speaker 5: a fear based model, we're immediately going to run and say, oh,
Speaker 5: this is catastrophic, this is going to be terrible. Oh
Speaker 5: I knew this all along, right, And we're thinking it's
Speaker 5: the gut, but like maybe it's not. Maybe it's our
Speaker 5: our thoughts run wild, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's so interesting because that's something I learned
Speaker 3: like in the last like year or two of like
Speaker 3: really because I would look at things like a situation
Speaker 3: where it's like from my perspective and my perspective only
Speaker 3: and not really considering like how could my person feel
Speaker 3: x y Z way about this?
Speaker 6: Like that was just you know, that.
Speaker 3: Wasn't a big deal, not really taking a step back
Speaker 3: and being like, oh, but like this is how they felt,
Speaker 3: and they're trying to tell me that, but I can
Speaker 3: only see like my viewpoint on it, and it's it's
Speaker 3: so hard to like kind of step out, step back
Speaker 3: and really interpret and feel how they were feeling.
Speaker 5: For sure, and to recognize, like when we talk about
Speaker 5: kind of later in life or older lesbians, or being
Speaker 5: later and older in relationship having a new relationship, we're
Speaker 5: bringing everything with us, you know, decades of stuff, so
Speaker 5: that one moment and you might be thinking, how can
Speaker 5: you feel this way about that? Like that was not
Speaker 5: a big deal, and they for them without even knowing it, Well,
Speaker 5: that was every moment where somebody didn't pay attention to me,
Speaker 5: or you know, I didn't get the love that I wanted,
Speaker 5: and so it's so much more than just that moment.
Speaker 5: Often but we get so cut up in the details
Speaker 5: of the present moment and what it means for us
Speaker 5: that we don't realize that actually the person is just
Speaker 5: stuck in a feeling of pain from this situation, but
Speaker 5: really ignited a whole lot of other feelings from the past,
Speaker 5: and if we could have that kind of empathy, then
Speaker 5: we'd be able to connect so much, you know, more
Speaker 5: deeply with each other and with a lot of patience.
Speaker 1: And I think it is like complicated.
Speaker 2: Like I had a situation recently where it's like to
Speaker 2: your point, when you come up and you're now later
Speaker 2: in life, you've got all these sets of circumstances, whether
Speaker 2: it's an ex husband, children, friendships, and then you're in
Speaker 2: a relationship and maybe the person that you're in the
Speaker 2: relationship feels really wronged in some way, but it's like
Speaker 2: you're grasping for but all these other things that I have.
Speaker 7: To do are also true versus like when.
Speaker 2: You're twenty five and falling in love, there's nobody else
Speaker 2: pulling at me versus now, it's like all these things
Speaker 2: you're balancing, you can look like a real jerk even
Speaker 2: when you're just honoring this other set of things.
Speaker 5: That you have to do exactly. And then my something,
Speaker 5: my imagining is that person who kind of is looking
Speaker 5: like a jerk is feeling like, but I'm doing so much,
Speaker 5: you know all that I'm doing right, I'm here, here,
Speaker 5: and here, And that's part of the reality, and that's
Speaker 5: where we need to, you know, be open and honest
Speaker 5: with each other, but also have the space, you know,
Speaker 5: in latitude kind of in that relationship to say, Okay,
Speaker 5: so you do have your kids and your job, and
Speaker 5: you're taking care of your elderly parent and you've got
Speaker 5: to you know, manage your ex and that relationship and
Speaker 5: all the things. But I would really love more time
Speaker 5: with you, Like I'm feeling missed. I don't feel like
Speaker 5: I'm you know, the second most important thing or equal
Speaker 5: important with your kids or whatever. Like I would love
Speaker 5: to feel like I'm more important to you. And like
Speaker 5: if we can get to the need underneath some of
Speaker 5: those sort of superficial conflicts, we can resolve and realize
Speaker 5: we're actually just saying we want each other more, we
Speaker 5: want to love each other more, we want the space
Speaker 5: to be together more. It comes from a place of
Speaker 5: tenderness and love, but we don't hear it because we're
Speaker 5: stuck in the tension and the friction.
Speaker 2: And then it's like everything files into that there it
Speaker 2: goes again, like now this other thing happened at just snowballs.
Speaker 5: Yep, here's that narrative. This is it right?
Speaker 2: And I think oftentimes like if I start to feel
Speaker 2: like or if I guess too, like I'm so through
Speaker 2: all these years, becomes so I.
Speaker 7: Don't want to say prideful, but like your ego does.
Speaker 2: If you don't feel reassured, I start to just be like, oh,
Speaker 2: then I'm I'm not going to try, and then it's
Speaker 2: like a harder thing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think in those cases, you know, it's
Speaker 5: like one person isn't feeling reassured and isn't feeling seen right,
Speaker 5: and isn't feeling met, But then the other person is
Speaker 5: also over there, not feeling reassured and not feeling met,
Speaker 5: and that ends up being like it's as you said,
Speaker 5: it's so complicated and nuanced because we get in these
Speaker 5: situations where both people are saying the same thing. You know,
Speaker 5: I don't feel seen, I feel dismissed. It comes down
Speaker 5: to these sort of core ideas, but it manifests as
Speaker 5: you're not doing enough for me. You're always so needy,
Speaker 5: you don't understand all that I have going on in
Speaker 5: my life. Well, why don't you pay attention to me
Speaker 5: the way you pay attention to your work. Why don't
Speaker 5: you see him trying to work so we can go
Speaker 5: on vacation you know what I mean. It's like, right
Speaker 5: both you're active, you're actually advocating for the relationship but
Speaker 5: doing it differently, But then the other person can't see
Speaker 5: that because they're stuck in their own deficit totally.
Speaker 3: Like you know, kind of what Ali was saying about,
Speaker 3: Like we just have such busier lives than we did
Speaker 3: in our twenties.
Speaker 6: So it's like dating is just so much different now.
Speaker 3: Like if I were to try to go on a
Speaker 3: date now, I'm like I can maybe plan.
Speaker 6: For it in like three weeks, you know, and it's like, you.
Speaker 3: Know that it makes me seem like I'm I'm not
Speaker 3: ready and available or whatever. But it's like, no, like
Speaker 3: I've got like all these other priorities that really matter
Speaker 3: a lot to me. And but we've also Ali and
Speaker 3: I have talked about, you know, like decentering the relationship
Speaker 3: aspect in our lives.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 3: I think that that really helps kind of almost bring
Speaker 3: like a calmness to me to be like, you know what,
Speaker 3: that's not my priority right now, and that's okay. I
Speaker 3: want to focus on career and friendships and these Yeah,
Speaker 3: my kids are you know, flock is ticking. My son's
Speaker 3: about to graduate from fifth grade, like I.
Speaker 6: You know, all those things.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think and for women, especially whether
Speaker 5: you're in a queer relationship, at our relationship, it's really
Speaker 5: shifted as we've leaned into career and we've realized that
Speaker 5: we can have a career and still mother in a
Speaker 5: badass an effective way with or without a partner in
Speaker 5: many cases. And I know there's a piece of privilege
Speaker 5: to that, right, I mean, not everybody can do that
Speaker 5: so easily, and not that even it's easy in any case,
Speaker 5: but there's this now change in the narrative for women
Speaker 5: where it's like, yeah, you can be a single and
Speaker 5: professional mom, you know, a single mom who's a professional,
Speaker 5: and you don't have to have a partner, and we
Speaker 5: don't have to be defined by our relationship anymore. So
Speaker 5: it kind of opens up possibilities for relationships not to
Speaker 5: be because there's a have to, like it may be
Speaker 5: used to be you know and are kind of for
Speaker 5: the boomers, it's like you had to have that kind
Speaker 5: of relationship want to And so I think that also
Speaker 5: it's like, look, if you don't check these boxes for me,
Speaker 5: like I don't need you, right, So anyways, I think
Speaker 5: it is really great for the individual woman to be like, Okay,
Speaker 5: I can focus on my kids, in my career and
Speaker 5: my friendships and I'm good. I'm fulfilled. On the other hand,
Speaker 5: you know, it might put this bar for the relationships
Speaker 5: like a little bit high, where now we're like, look,
Speaker 5: I do not need you in my life. I got
Speaker 5: so it puts an interesting stress on the relationship from
Speaker 5: that standpoint.
Speaker 1: I have actually even heard some of our friends verbalized.
Speaker 2: If you're not bringing X, Y and Z, I don't
Speaker 2: need you at all, because I've already I'm happy on
Speaker 2: my own and I'm thinking, like I am. I'm not lonely,
Speaker 2: and I am happy on my own, but I still
Speaker 2: do want a partner.
Speaker 1: I want to get married.
Speaker 5: I want that. Yeah. Yeah, and it brings something to
Speaker 5: our lives. Yeah, we find that, right, companion, It really
Speaker 5: does bring a lot of benefit to our lives in
Speaker 5: a fun way. I think the key is being able
Speaker 5: to kind of negotiate and or be clear about, you know,
Speaker 5: what is important to us and how do we want
Speaker 5: to set up sort of our independence self and not
Speaker 5: lose the me as we co construct the wei, Because
Speaker 5: that's a really delicate balance, especially for those of us
Speaker 5: that are also mothers, also have professional careers and want
Speaker 5: to be able to show up and be a good partner.
Speaker 2: Does blend We talk about that too. Like women, it's
Speaker 2: like if you're dating someone, they sort of automatically start
Speaker 2: to fall into your community, and then it is like
Speaker 2: you sort of do lose the me sometimes because it
Speaker 2: becomes so blurred, Whereas when you're with men, there's this
Speaker 2: natural buffer that kind.
Speaker 5: Of keeps them at bay.
Speaker 2: Like how do women like do you have recommendations for that?
Speaker 2: Like how you maintain some sovereignty?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think understanding the friendship piece. You know, it's
Speaker 5: an interesting one because again, you know, the our lovers
Speaker 5: are the same people that are friends, and so it
Speaker 5: does blur the lines and can make it difficult. And
Speaker 5: then when you find a partner, you're super excited to
Speaker 5: go out with all of your friends, a bunch of
Speaker 5: women friends like, let's this is so fun, and so
Speaker 5: you often then bring your partner along with your friendships. Right,
Speaker 5: So then the partner and which is great in the beginning,
Speaker 5: until then all of a sudden you're like, WHOA, I
Speaker 5: just want some independent time. And so I think it
Speaker 5: is really important to think about what are your individual
Speaker 5: hobbies that you like to do by yourself, Who are
Speaker 5: the people? What relationships are just yours that you get
Speaker 5: to sit and talk about your life and your partner
Speaker 5: for that matter, and know that they can hear you
Speaker 5: and still love her and still love you, but you
Speaker 5: get a little bit of that separation. I think having
Speaker 5: individual hobbies, having individual time is really important, and it
Speaker 5: preserves the relationship. It's not because the relationship is bad.
Speaker 5: It actually is going to preserve the longevity of the
Speaker 5: relationship if we keep our sense of self and then
Speaker 5: also really contribute and bring that strong self to the
Speaker 5: we to the partnership.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's something like a lot of
Speaker 3: people don't really even realize that they're doing, like the
Speaker 3: enmeshment that happens so quickly and it's you know, and
Speaker 3: next thing you know, it's.
Speaker 6: A year down the line.
Speaker 3: You're like, hold on, Like I realize I haven't done
Speaker 3: anything just like myself or with my friends without you.
Speaker 3: And then it's like it feels like this dig to
Speaker 3: be like now I want.
Speaker 6: To spend time alone.
Speaker 1: You can't come.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So again, those individual relationships that you have before
Speaker 5: the relationship certainly, but you know you want to integrate,
Speaker 5: but go out every other week, or do you know,
Speaker 5: go on a hike just your friends, go on a
Speaker 5: hike with just your siblings, your family, you know, your coworkers,
Speaker 5: go to that work function that is the fun, you know,
Speaker 5: whatever it might be, do those things alone. It also
Speaker 5: then sets up the excitement to then do something together. Right,
Speaker 5: it's okay. Then we get excited to do something together,
Speaker 5: not like, oh, here we go the same old, same old.
Speaker 5: It creates that excitement to see each other again and
Speaker 5: maybe plan something unique and fun for the couple, because
Speaker 5: you know you've got these unique and fun things as
Speaker 5: an individual as well.
Speaker 2: It is that's interesting when you first get in a relationship.
Speaker 2: I see this in our friend group. It's like you
Speaker 2: want that partner. Like what I've noticed, it's almost like
Speaker 2: you need the friend group to like witness your new relationship,
Speaker 2: Like you can't wait to be out with this person,
Speaker 2: and then you're not really with your friends at all.
Speaker 2: You're just heavily focused on that person, but you're still
Speaker 2: out with the group.
Speaker 1: Like I do.
Speaker 2: Feel like there is a sense at the beginning of
Speaker 2: a relationship to like have it witnessed or like it's
Speaker 2: like you have to explode on the scene with this person.
Speaker 6: Everybody, look at how cute we are.
Speaker 7: Look how cute we are.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think it's interesting. I mean I
Speaker 5: guess maybe there's a part in that in feeling a
Speaker 5: lot of pride, you know, yeah, help my hopefully healthy pride,
Speaker 5: in wanting to sort of be in a good partnership
Speaker 5: and be able to share this love, you know with everybody,
Speaker 5: like look at us, you know, or write in this relationship.
Speaker 5: I think there is obviously the shadow side of that,
Speaker 5: which is this relationship kind of more of a performative
Speaker 5: thing somehow fulfilling a part of you. You know that
Speaker 5: really the relationships to fill right.
Speaker 7: So that you haven't been seen and now you need
Speaker 7: to be seen.
Speaker 5: I'm only worthy, you know when I have a relationship
Speaker 5: where everybody else is partnered up and having kids, and
Speaker 5: I'm saying, so I want to have that partner because
Speaker 5: I feel like that will help me fit with the group, right.
Speaker 5: So interesting it could be a way that you know,
Speaker 5: we would want to be cautious about that desire to
Speaker 5: show each other off and to you know, announce the
Speaker 5: relationship to the world. If it's somehow coming from a
Speaker 5: place of your own sort of sense of lack.
Speaker 1: I think that's interesting.
Speaker 2: We we talked about a couple of weeks ago on
Speaker 2: the show about how also like women and men, like
Speaker 2: when I was married, I would not have been out
Speaker 2: like having drinks, say with my husband's friends, Like there
Speaker 2: was just this natural thing. And Melissa and I were
Speaker 2: talking about her. Melissa actually was saying how it's so
Speaker 2: normal to like go out and have drinks with women
Speaker 2: and I can be in a relationship. But then I
Speaker 2: posed to her, your ex husband's a pilot. What would
Speaker 2: you have said if you would have called you and said,
Speaker 2: I met this really cool flight attendant. We have flying
Speaker 2: in common, and I'm going to meet her for drinks
Speaker 2: when we land in Lexington.
Speaker 5: Is that cool with you?
Speaker 2: And it's like immediately, Hell, no, that's not cool with me.
Speaker 2: You're not going to go hang out with this flight attendant.
Speaker 2: But with women, it is like this accepted practice to
Speaker 2: just be friends with everyone, and it can be kind
Speaker 2: of a slippery you know, you're getting more familiar and
Speaker 2: then you're like, wow, I do kind of like this person.
Speaker 2: I feel good around this person. How do you see that,
Speaker 2: like how like relationships, women can be jealous, they can
Speaker 2: be and have affairs quite honestly, like things just develop.
Speaker 1: What do you think about that?
Speaker 5: At the core that I think is our understanding of
Speaker 5: whether it's you know, partially true partially false of sort
Speaker 5: of sexuality and the differences in males and females in
Speaker 5: terms of how they relate to orient and think about sex.
Speaker 5: So you know, the stereotype, whether it's stereotyped or not,
Speaker 5: or true or not, is that men, you know, they're
Speaker 5: always thinking about sex and that they want to kind
Speaker 5: of connect with a woman. It's likely sexual in nature
Speaker 5: that it's very difficult, and you have men say this, right,
Speaker 5: some men will say, yeah, we're not friends with women.
Speaker 5: I mean you know what I mean, Like maybe that
Speaker 5: one you know, sister's friend from years and years ago,
Speaker 5: but typically like and we don't want to be friends
Speaker 5: with a woman. If we're hanging out with a woman,
Speaker 5: it's for one thing. So that excuse it if that's
Speaker 5: the true. Right, We've got this kind of picture in
Speaker 5: the mind that for men, they're always thinking about sex.
Speaker 5: We don't totally think that about women. Now true for
Speaker 5: those of us that remember the ogl word like Shane
Speaker 5: change that, I mean, right, So, yeah, Shane was like sex, sex,
Speaker 5: sex and more sex, you know, and even to the
Speaker 5: point of others like she was that kind of archetype
Speaker 5: of kind of embodying sort of this masculine way of
Speaker 5: just sleeping around all over. But we associate that with men.
Speaker 5: We don't associate that with women. I think part of
Speaker 5: that is maybe gender norms in the beginning, and as
Speaker 5: women have become more free sexually and marriages kind of
Speaker 5: shifted the concepts of marriage, maybe we're like, yeah, look,
Speaker 5: we like sex just the same, you know, and we
Speaker 5: certainly could have affairs, and we certainly could be attracted
Speaker 5: to it, especially if it were lesbians, we would be
Speaker 5: attracted to another woman. So I think the underlying gender
Speaker 5: piece and stereotypes is that play there, and we do
Speaker 5: need to think about, Yeah, is it cool for you know,
Speaker 5: you to go out on you doing a podcast on
Speaker 5: the road somewhere and you meet somebody who's cool and
Speaker 5: you want to go have a drink. You don't know
Speaker 5: what her intentions are, but you're married, you know, Like,
Speaker 5: is that okay?
Speaker 2: Is it like, let's say you're married and you're out
Speaker 2: on the road for a tour for your show. Would
Speaker 2: you go have drink in another city with someone that
Speaker 2: you had something in common with so thin I don't
Speaker 2: know if you're married or not, but.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would be very attuned to the intuition. I mean, right, So,
Speaker 5: if it was a business relationship, if you know, if
Speaker 5: it was you gals and it's like, yeah, let's talk
Speaker 5: about what we could do together with this podcast, maybe
Speaker 5: a series or maybe this and I'd love to have
Speaker 5: you on and we want to write something like then yeah,
Speaker 5: then I'm thinking this is you know, something that could
Speaker 5: be really great. Or we work together in the past
Speaker 5: and we know the relationship. It's it's very kind of,
Speaker 5: you know, platonic. And if I trust myself there, then yeah,
Speaker 5: I totally would. I would totally go have drinks with
Speaker 5: either of you two, right, Yeah. I think if I
Speaker 5: have the sense of either myself or the other person,
Speaker 5: especially the other person, because my hope was that myself,
Speaker 5: I'm going to be sort of loyal and committed, which
Speaker 5: I would be. But if I get a sense that
Speaker 5: there's anything unclean with the other then I think that's
Speaker 5: on me to say, you know what, no, thank you,
Speaker 5: I'm going to actually head back to my room and
Speaker 5: just have got an early flight in the morning, because again,
Speaker 5: with our intuition, we can tell if there's a little
Speaker 5: bit of a spark for a little bit of energy,
Speaker 5: we know if we're walking into a dangerous situation. Yeah,
Speaker 5: So why do that? I mean, why do that to yourself?
Speaker 5: Why do that to you know what I mean? Why
Speaker 5: brit yourself in a situation where your guts like, ooh this,
Speaker 5: you know, I know that they're not just wanting to
Speaker 5: talk about business or this isn't just a friendly Hey,
Speaker 5: we have a lot in common, and I think that's dangerous.
Speaker 5: I'm just going to say no to that.
Speaker 3: And I think that's a really put into words what
Speaker 3: I was trying to say a couple of weeks ago
Speaker 3: when we talked about this conversation is that I trust myself.
Speaker 6: I know what my intentions are.
Speaker 3: And then on top of that, I'm like, well, I
Speaker 3: am like looking for opportunities, you know, and this conversation
Speaker 3: might really advance what I'm working on and we can
Speaker 3: work together on this.
Speaker 6: You know, I know what my objective is.
Speaker 3: So but I think a lot of it also takes
Speaker 3: that conversation with the person that you're in a relationship
Speaker 3: with of saying that you know, like this is where
Speaker 3: the stems from, this is why I want to do this,
Speaker 3: and if something does go awry, I'm going to shut
Speaker 3: it down.
Speaker 5: Absolutely and recognize. I mean, this is where I think
Speaker 5: I got a little little pushback when I talked about
Speaker 5: kind of acknowledging somebody's insecurity. Is that if you know,
Speaker 5: you have a partner who maybe was cheated on in
Speaker 5: the past or or was with men in the past,
Speaker 5: and that's their understanding of their partner, is that they're
Speaker 5: always looking for sex with whoever is you know, walking
Speaker 5: and near them, then I think we need to be
Speaker 5: sensitive and attentive to that and be extra clear with
Speaker 5: our partner to say, like you said, Melissa, this is
Speaker 5: just a business meeting, or hey, I'm going to go
Speaker 5: I'm gonna I'll text you you know the men that
Speaker 5: I'm done and maybe we can jump on a FaceTime
Speaker 5: when I'm back in my room, just for them to
Speaker 5: get that sense of security, because you know, we could
Speaker 5: resist and say, well they need to just trust me. Well,
Speaker 5: sure they do. But if you're new in the relationship,
Speaker 5: if there's been any kind of you know, questionable behavior
Speaker 5: in the past, if they've got trust issues, like why
Speaker 5: not just say, hey, I'm doing this. It's a really
Speaker 5: great person. I think you're gonna really like her. I
Speaker 5: hope you meet her one day. I'll text you or
Speaker 5: I want to get back to my room and make
Speaker 5: sure that she's okay with it and comfortable too. I
Speaker 5: don't think that is giving too much. And oh that
Speaker 5: you know, you need to be strong and do what
Speaker 5: you want to do, like okay, and then you can
Speaker 5: be single.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, honor our partners in securities while we're building trust,
Speaker 5: while we're nurturing, you know, the strength of the relationship,
Speaker 5: and even fifteen years in you might you know, there
Speaker 5: might be something where it's just, yeah, this one person
Speaker 5: makes me a little insecure. And what they're saying is
Speaker 5: I love you. I don't want to lose you. Yeah,
Speaker 5: that's what they're saying, not I want to control you
Speaker 5: when you don't get to have any fun. You know,
Speaker 5: we interpret the message to me and it's, oh, they're
Speaker 5: trying to control me. I'm gonna do it. I want
Speaker 5: to do. Yeah, go do what you want to do,
Speaker 5: but honor the person that's supposed to be like you know,
Speaker 5: your your other half, the person you love the most,
Speaker 5: and help them feel comfortable in that situation as well.
Speaker 2: I think back too, is like when people are first
Speaker 2: coming out. I remember my first long term lesbian relationship.
Speaker 1: We at the very beginning.
Speaker 2: I was everything was new, I was insecure, I was
Speaker 2: I blown up my life, I'm scared to death, I'm
Speaker 2: doing everything for the first time. And I remember feeling
Speaker 2: insecure and I remember my partner like saying to her
Speaker 2: friends kind of like I need to meet Ali where
Speaker 2: Ali is right now. This is where she is. And
Speaker 2: I appreciated that so much. It just like, you know,
Speaker 2: she was like that looks like she's controlling me.
Speaker 1: She's not.
Speaker 2: I'm meeting her at this insecure phase and it was great,
Speaker 2: And I remember that like freed me up to not
Speaker 2: feel insecure exactly.
Speaker 3: It is really interesting too, like kind of circling back
Speaker 3: to like men being seen as these like super like
Speaker 3: sexually charged creatures. And one of the things that I've
Speaker 3: really realized through having this podcast and like the men
Speaker 3: that we've heard from, is that there are a lot
Speaker 3: of men out there that are not that's not their objective,
Speaker 3: Like they love being married, they love being in a
Speaker 3: relationship and they're not looking to go run around in
Speaker 3: these streets, you.
Speaker 6: Know, So it is kind of like, I guess one
Speaker 6: of those just troops.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, I think
Speaker 5: it depends. I mean again, we're talking really kind of
Speaker 5: binary stereotypes in terms of somebody might then say, okay,
Speaker 5: but then what is that married, happily married man need
Speaker 5: to do having drinks with the woman, Like what are
Speaker 5: they having in common with? Now? You know, again, I'm
Speaker 5: a lesbian, so there's no threat if I go hang
Speaker 5: out with him man. But sports is my world. So
Speaker 5: one of the things that I was able to do
Speaker 5: early on kind of in my you know, business setting
Speaker 5: and with with men is talk sports, Like I would
Speaker 5: know who the quarterback was just drafted, and what's happening
Speaker 5: in you know, the NBA, all these things, and it
Speaker 5: was a source of connection and then it was fun
Speaker 5: and we could go down and have a drink and
Speaker 5: let's talk about, you know, the most recent sport thing.
Speaker 5: But I think part of it is is there that
Speaker 5: natural connection, you know, and maybe the somebody's wife would
Speaker 5: be like, well, what are you connecting with her for? Right?
Speaker 5: Like what do you have in common with her? What
Speaker 5: is it that you go have drinks with the guys?
Speaker 5: Why do you have drinks with this woman? So again,
Speaker 5: it's that heterosexual dynamic that has so many layers to
Speaker 5: it around power, around stereotypes, around what we have access
Speaker 5: to and how we get to show up, but what's
Speaker 5: supposed to be important to us, and it really does
Speaker 5: create kind of create that divide.
Speaker 2: The other thing that I want to touch on is
Speaker 2: the feeling of like when you first get into our relationship,
Speaker 2: you're in that kind of limerence, excited phase. But then
Speaker 2: many times we see people have a stage of like
Speaker 2: you dive in and then all of a sudden you
Speaker 2: become shockingly avoidant, almost like a flip switches where you're
Speaker 2: like your body almost says like, oh my god, this
Speaker 2: was so fast, and now this person is like counting
Speaker 2: on me to text them every morning.
Speaker 1: And do you see that a lot?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think there's definitely a very intense honeymoon phase,
Speaker 5: you know, that Limerens phase. And part of it, I
Speaker 5: think is that for some people still, for some couples
Speaker 5: still they can't be out, you know, and so they
Speaker 5: can't be out and about so they do then build
Speaker 5: their relationship kind of in the privacy of their own
Speaker 5: home where their friends home, right, and so there does
Speaker 5: create almost like this a little bit of like an
Speaker 5: insulated you know, incubator to nurture the relationship just in
Speaker 5: this small space, as opposed to being able to take
Speaker 5: it more casually and go out here and go out
Speaker 5: there and hold hands and kissing and evinly, you know
Speaker 5: a little bit passionately in public in the park where
Speaker 5: not everybody's comfortable doing that. So I think we then
Speaker 5: have this like really intimate container or that intimacy grows
Speaker 5: really fast, and you know, the it is amazing to
Speaker 5: fall in love. That initial passion and excitement is like
Speaker 5: one of those sort of unique amazing feelings, and so
Speaker 5: it can be very absorbing. But then life settles. And
Speaker 5: when we talk about being in you know, your forties
Speaker 5: or early fifties, like then your life is full, like
Speaker 5: we've said, so it's not like you're twenty two and like,
Speaker 5: oh I got to go back and maybe study for
Speaker 5: grad school or to my job. I got no kids,
Speaker 5: you know, so this is like, oh my gosh, now
Speaker 5: life pulls me back and all of a sudden, I've
Speaker 5: got this intensity here for this relationship that maybe started
Speaker 5: off good, but now I'm like, yeah, cause I've got
Speaker 5: to go back and put my attention here, and I
Speaker 5: want to I've got good things over here, and so
Speaker 5: now you have to kind of split and pull, and
Speaker 5: the other person may be like, well, where'd you go? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: because they may not be in the same place, or
Speaker 5: the two of you go opposite and go back to life,
Speaker 5: and then there's fear like, oh, wait a minute, do
Speaker 5: we lose the connection? What happened here? And I think
Speaker 5: it's really reflective of the pace with which we move.
Speaker 5: Moves so fast, so.
Speaker 1: It kind of reminds me of the long distance thing.
Speaker 2: Like we were hearing, like we had a matchmaker on
Speaker 2: who talked about how like long distance for lesbians is
Speaker 2: so common because maybe there's less, you know, options, and
Speaker 2: so you end up dating someone long distance.
Speaker 1: Do you see that in your practice a bit with
Speaker 1: gay women.
Speaker 5: I see a lot of long distance relationships because they're hard,
Speaker 5: you know, they're really really hard, and so how do
Speaker 5: we negotiate kind of the boundaries of that and find,
Speaker 5: you know, kind of ways to define the relationship in
Speaker 5: positive and connected ways. I think there's also kind of
Speaker 5: a benefit, you know, in that it makes you go slower,
Speaker 5: you know, and it makes you can really nurture connection
Speaker 5: and get to know each other and keep your own
Speaker 5: life because there's no option to move in after one week.
Speaker 5: There's no option to spend you know, all but one
Speaker 5: night in her place for a month because you don't
Speaker 5: live there. Right. So I think there's some benefits to it,
Speaker 5: but distance relationships are tough because there is that kind
Speaker 5: of physical connection that brings so much to our nervous
Speaker 5: system and right that practical part. So I think it
Speaker 5: can be nice because of the pacing, but it can
Speaker 5: definitely present its challenges. But I think I know the
Speaker 5: woman that you're talking about, who's the matchmaker. Yeah, I
Speaker 5: think I saw that episode, which was a great one,
Speaker 5: and it's true that many people feel like they don't
Speaker 5: have options in their town or in their city. Yeah,
Speaker 5: so they want to look elsewhere. They meet somebody and
Speaker 5: then it's like, okay, now what do we do?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it is hard and I've seen
Speaker 1: friends do it.
Speaker 2: But I think in the like, I don't know, like
Speaker 2: if you could create a situation that it could like
Speaker 2: if you had an established we're going to see each
Speaker 2: other this predictable number of times, and we're you can
Speaker 2: get facetiming. I don't know, like it feels like if
Speaker 2: you met someone like you. There are ways to do it,
Speaker 2: but I can see where there would be more challenges.
Speaker 2: But also it does free you up in some ways
Speaker 2: because you can keep up your community, yeah, pretty easily.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think it really depends. You know, again,
Speaker 5: when we're talking about at the beginning about how you
Speaker 5: to just define the relationship, is being clear about what
Speaker 5: do you want in a relationship, you know, if if
Speaker 5: you also have kids in a career, like maybe you
Speaker 5: don't want or need somebody to be or you know,
Speaker 5: end all be all, every day everything, but you do
Speaker 5: want somebody to be your travel companion and to talk
Speaker 5: about things that you know a couple of times a
Speaker 5: week or at the end of each day, and and
Speaker 5: you do love the physical intimacy and you want to
Speaker 5: be able to you know, kind of think about growing
Speaker 5: old together.
Speaker 1: When yeah, dream building.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so the building, but it doesn't have to be
Speaker 5: right here, right now, everything all the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think that's one of the harder things about long
Speaker 3: distance If you can't resolve it, and it's kind of
Speaker 3: like you have to kind of pick a path.
Speaker 6: It's like, either this is going to just be it
Speaker 6: is what it is.
Speaker 3: We're going to travel and see each other when we can,
Speaker 3: or one of us is moving and we're going to
Speaker 3: build a life.
Speaker 6: But I know that I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's it's difficult when you're later in life and you're
Speaker 3: so established.
Speaker 6: And you're and rooted and you can move like to move.
Speaker 6: It's just crazy.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think, you know, it begs the question
Speaker 5: of what does it mean to build a life with
Speaker 5: someone and do you have to be living together in
Speaker 5: the same house all the time to build a life
Speaker 5: with somebody? You know, I know several you know, can
Speaker 5: people that are either musicians or artists or even you know,
Speaker 5: residents fellows that spend four months of the year at
Speaker 5: a university or four months of the year on set,
Speaker 5: or they're on tour for music and they're gone a
Speaker 5: lot yea, And so you would think they don't necessarily
Speaker 5: live to there, but then they do. They find ways
Speaker 5: for the one partner to meet them on tour if
Speaker 5: they're at a closed city, or they spend a month
Speaker 5: together in the summertime. So I think really the question
Speaker 5: for all of us is what kind of life do
Speaker 5: we want to build and what kind of partner do
Speaker 5: we want to build that with? And where is there
Speaker 5: the non negotiables, you know, and where is there some
Speaker 5: flexibility to say, oh, yeah, I could actually get all
Speaker 5: that I need with the distance relationship. And maybe when
Speaker 5: we do get closer to retirement, we can't think about
Speaker 5: living either together or we you know, six months six months,
Speaker 5: you know, because our kids are grown, we're doing our
Speaker 5: own thing. Work has slowed down, we work remote. So
Speaker 5: it's really this idea of what is build a like
Speaker 5: life look like for you?
Speaker 2: And I think that's ever changing, right, like as your
Speaker 2: kids get bigger, it's shifting.
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, what is your feeling on?
Speaker 2: Sometimes Melissa and I talk about like people don't casually
Speaker 2: date in the lesbian community. It's like when you're with men,
Speaker 2: you at least I did, Like in college and after college,
Speaker 2: I dated guys like I might have a date one
Speaker 2: weekend and a different person I saw two weeks later.
Speaker 1: I never see that.
Speaker 2: Like I was trying to brainstorm one friend that casually dates.
Speaker 5: I can't think of one. It's what your thought on that.
Speaker 5: I mean, I do have a few clients who you know,
Speaker 5: casually date and are you know, trying to working to
Speaker 5: try to find kind of that person that they want
Speaker 5: to you know, maybe make it not casual. But I
Speaker 5: think part of it is that there's a lot of
Speaker 5: there's a lot of what I hear from my friends
Speaker 5: and you know, it's like, oh, well, I can't you know,
Speaker 5: I'm not going to be physical with anybody until I
Speaker 5: have that deep emotional connection, you know. So I'm going
Speaker 5: to give a chance. I'm going to date, and I'm
Speaker 5: going to kind of see it through with you and
Speaker 5: kind of give you my attention, see how we go,
Speaker 5: and then I'm not gonna, you know, maybe have sex
Speaker 5: with you until I feel an emotional connection. But then
Speaker 5: I need to give you time to have an emotional connection.
Speaker 5: So I'm going to stay focused on you and then
Speaker 5: decide if it does or doesn't work. I think there's
Speaker 5: also something interesting again we get to the gender piece
Speaker 5: about this sort of inner narrative or perception that if
Speaker 5: a woman is casually dating and or having sex with
Speaker 5: multiple partners, somehow that's undesirable for a woman, Like that's
Speaker 5: bad behavior. Yeah, you should be having sex with a
Speaker 5: bunch of people at the same time. And now I
Speaker 5: think again, we've changed our concept of how quickly we
Speaker 5: have sex after we date, and so that could create
Speaker 5: a whole bunch of complexities for somebody who has a
Speaker 5: narrative like, no, you kind of I'm monogamous, so I,
Speaker 5: you know, have sleep with one person, but then I'm dating.
Speaker 5: I'm not in a monogous from this relationship. So how
Speaker 5: do I reconcile my feeling of I'm a monogamous person,
Speaker 5: but yet I'm not in a monogamous relationship. So I
Speaker 5: make monogamous dating, you know, my manifestation of that. And
Speaker 5: so I'll see it through with one person and one
Speaker 5: person one person. But then the hard part is we
Speaker 5: see it through with one person intense love six months
Speaker 5: whatever time, and then, like you said, you wake up.
Speaker 5: However many months later, are you like, oh darn.
Speaker 1: Yes, this isn't the one.
Speaker 7: Now I've invested six months back to round zero.
Speaker 5: I have to stop over, you know, And so how
Speaker 5: do I do that?
Speaker 3: Talk a little bit too about that therapies language that
Speaker 3: we have and how that is kind of like getting
Speaker 3: in people's heads when they're dating and you know, kind
Speaker 3: of labeling people a narcissists right out the gate, you know,
Speaker 3: because they did one little thing that And I mean
Speaker 3: we've talked about this a lot on the pod about
Speaker 3: I mean, everybody has narcissistic tendencies and traits sometimes sometimes,
Speaker 3: you know, and kind of getting out of your head
Speaker 3: in that respect, when you're outdated being and not just
Speaker 3: writing everybody off because of one wrong.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think that. Then to back up really
Speaker 5: quickly about the dating and monogamy, I think it's really
Speaker 5: important for us to be aware of how we're making
Speaker 5: sense of things in our own minds, right, and we
Speaker 5: don't stop. And that's often what I help people do
Speaker 5: is I'll say, okay, so what does this mean for you?
Speaker 5: Like if you have two partners, If you're dat I'm
Speaker 5: dating two people which I do share, break it off
Speaker 5: with one, Well, what does it mean to you if
Speaker 5: you continue to date both you don't know yet which
Speaker 5: one you like? What does that mean?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 7: Oh, well, it means I'm you know, I'm hiding, I'm
Speaker 7: being untrue to one.
Speaker 5: It's like, but they both know your data, you know,
Speaker 5: so unpacking Like what that inner narrative is for you
Speaker 5: and what it means for you is really important to
Speaker 5: then maybe untangle from some of the restrictive stories or
Speaker 5: even unconscious rules that you have for yourself, because I
Speaker 5: think we find that we have all these unspoken rules
Speaker 5: for ourselves that we don't even know we have. And
Speaker 5: sometimes those rules are helpful, sometimes those rules are restrictive,
Speaker 5: and so being aware of those and you know, this
Speaker 5: therapy we speak starts to kind of play into that
Speaker 5: because we're so quick to say, you know, oh, somebody
Speaker 5: that's a little selfish or chooses themselves as a narcissist.
Speaker 5: You know, somebody that needs me, you know, is codependent.
Speaker 5: Somebody that you know is trying to tell me what
Speaker 5: they think I was thinking, is gaslighting me. And all
Speaker 5: these things are true phenomena, and I don't want to
Speaker 5: downplay any of those. But it is okay to sometimes
Speaker 5: be selfish, and we're gonna be it, can you We
Speaker 5: can make a mistake and be a selfish. Yeah, doesn't
Speaker 5: mean we're a diagnosed narcissist. You know, everybody is a narcissist.
Speaker 5: Your ex is probably not. You know, we can need
Speaker 5: people and be fulfilled and have our nervous system regulated
Speaker 5: by somebody else, and that's okay, you're not a codependent,
Speaker 5: you know, that's okay, that's healthy interdependence. And then you can,
Speaker 5: you know, maybe say like, well wait a minute, but
Speaker 5: you this and you're like, don't gaslight me. Okay, I'm
Speaker 5: not trying to gaslight you. I really feel like, so
Speaker 5: there's no space for dialogue when we latch onto these
Speaker 5: like diagnoses, and so we've got to be willing to notice, Okay,
Speaker 5: what am I you know, making sense of? How am
Speaker 5: I making sense of this situation? Am I kind of
Speaker 5: being driven by something that may not be totally true?
Speaker 5: We come back to like our cognitive distortions. You know,
Speaker 5: is my knee jerk reaction when they're selfish that they're
Speaker 5: a narcissist? You know? Is my knee jerk reaction when
Speaker 5: they kind of need me or I find that it's codependence?
Speaker 5: Is that my knee jerk reaction when we disagree that
Speaker 5: it's gaslighting? Because if so, what is that about? Where
Speaker 5: is that coming from? And how can I create more
Speaker 5: space to be curious about the situation and hold the
Speaker 5: discomfort that I'm feeling? Right, we feel discomfort? We want
Speaker 5: to label it? Makes sense of it and chalk it
Speaker 5: up and throw it on the other person, as opposed
Speaker 5: to staying with that discomfort and say, what is this
Speaker 5: meaning for me? And why am I reacting so strongly?
Speaker 1: Yeah, like get curious.
Speaker 5: Yeah, get curious. And it doesn't mean you don't have boundaries.
Speaker 5: It doesn't mean you let people. I mean, it doesn't
Speaker 5: mean any of that. Yes to boundaries, Yes to advocating
Speaker 5: for yourself, Yes to you know, healthy manifestations of all
Speaker 5: the things. But it's being curious and cautious about our
Speaker 5: tendency to just get a little uncomfortable and then write
Speaker 5: something off and kick it projected onto the other person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like just throw somebody away.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's offloading our own discomfort onto them. But it's
Speaker 5: not solving anything, you know, it's not solving anything. We're
Speaker 5: going to hit the same thing in the next relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's true.
Speaker 2: Like we see that a lot in our community, where
Speaker 2: people just write something happens and it's like they're dead
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And just because you have to your point, you
Speaker 2: do something selfish doesn't make you a selfish person.
Speaker 1: It's like, my.
Speaker 2: Kids do things all the time that I'm like it
Speaker 2: doesn't make them bad.
Speaker 1: They just had a bad behavior.
Speaker 6: Narcisses running around exactly.
Speaker 5: And it's like there's no room to be human. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's like even I think with social media, like everything
Speaker 5: is curated and filtered and perfect, you know, and it's
Speaker 5: like and even the extremes then when you see this
Speaker 5: extreme vulnerability. So I'm was like, oh, that's performative. You know,
Speaker 5: they're just doing that for views as and so there's
Speaker 5: no room to be flawed or to have a bad
Speaker 5: day or to make a mistake and know that you
Speaker 5: have the container of our relationship is big enough to
Speaker 5: hold all of me, I mean the great parts of me,
Speaker 5: and there's not so great parts that are going to
Speaker 5: show up. Can this relationship hold that? Can we as
Speaker 5: a couple make the space for both of us to
Speaker 5: do that and figure out how we can make repair
Speaker 5: and apologize when it happens, but we're not cast off
Speaker 5: when when we show up somehow flawed.
Speaker 1: Boy, this is really hitting close to home right now, Lourie.
Speaker 2: I think I think we all that bears repeating, like
Speaker 2: I do feel that like that cast off like is
Speaker 2: so painful because it's like there's so much there's a
Speaker 2: body of work and one thing happens and it's just
Speaker 2: like I don't know, like I've had that happen and
Speaker 2: it's very very It rattles your nervous system yep.
Speaker 5: It just and it makes when we talk about like
Speaker 5: trust and intuition, it just makes you feel like you
Speaker 5: can't trust the container of the relationship.
Speaker 1: You can't trust it.
Speaker 2: And then you can't speak up because you're too scared
Speaker 2: of the thing happening.
Speaker 5: Right, So instead you kind of appease you people please,
Speaker 5: you know, you just or you just slowly quiet yourself,
Speaker 5: or you learn how to, you know, put on a
Speaker 5: happy face when you're not feeling happy because you don't
Speaker 5: feel like there's the capacity to hold the pain that
Speaker 5: you might feel or the bad emotions that you might feel,
Speaker 5: or if you're drowning. It's like, can I be drowning
Speaker 5: and still be okay in the space?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Can I be sad? Can I be frustrated? Can I
Speaker 5: be angry? And how can we find a place in
Speaker 5: the relationship where we can make space for the healthy
Speaker 5: expression of those negative emotions as opposed to negativity comes
Speaker 5: at not doing it?
Speaker 7: Not doing it, because then we're just false harmony, false harmony,
Speaker 7: it's true.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think another thing too, is like sometimes the ebbs
Speaker 3: and flows of the relationship. You know, sometimes you are
Speaker 3: in a sad place or an avoidant place, and I
Speaker 3: think it's expected that those kind of things are going
Speaker 3: to be done with in a day or two, but
Speaker 3: it could be something that's going on for a much
Speaker 3: longer time and it gets really difficult to sit in
Speaker 3: that space for the other person.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I do think it's true. Then the flip
Speaker 5: side is for that other person to say, Okay, I
Speaker 5: want to hold all that you have, but oh my gosh,
Speaker 5: it's been a downer for weeks. And that's where hopefully,
Speaker 5: if it is that case, the person's getting the support
Speaker 5: they need. The couple's getting the support they need. They
Speaker 5: find ways to have little things to look forward to together,
Speaker 5: They find those moments of joy, they find the moments
Speaker 5: of connection. You know, that healthy relationship would be able
Speaker 5: to have conversations about those moments and the dynamics that
Speaker 5: are happening and say, okay, so well, what do you need?
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for supporting me through this. I
Speaker 5: know I've been kind of lost in my own What
Speaker 5: do you need? Can I just I want to show
Speaker 5: up for you, you know, for just a day, and
Speaker 5: for us to find that in ourselves when we are drowning,
Speaker 5: Can we still find the ability to show up for
Speaker 5: the other and to own Hey, I've been I've been down.
Speaker 5: Like you know, this has been a tough couple of weeks.
Speaker 5: I'm thank you so much for being by my side.
Speaker 5: I want what can we do, like, let's do something
Speaker 5: fun together? And I think that ownership of that and
Speaker 5: then the willingness to connect and recognize, like, thank you
Speaker 5: for being there. I want to now be there for you,
Speaker 5: even if it's just for this afternoon, goes a long
Speaker 5: way to kind of create that connection and that strength.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that, and it just lets them know
Speaker 2: I'm aware. I'm not sitting here thinking I'm great. I
Speaker 2: know I'm not right now, I'm stressed. I've got these
Speaker 2: things happening.
Speaker 1: So I love that.
Speaker 2: Well, Doctor Lourie, thank you so much for coming back
Speaker 2: on Lesbian Chronicles.
Speaker 5: It's so fun. I love this. I love these conversations.
Speaker 1: We really appreciate it.
Speaker 6: Remind us where people can find more about.
Speaker 5: You Instagram and TikTok. I'm on on that. My website
Speaker 5: is just lorisulpizio dot com. So that's got some of
Speaker 5: my kind of business yework stuff as well. I'm on
Speaker 5: LinkedIn as well, kind of with more kind of professional
Speaker 5: business like leadershipy stuff. But yeah, that's probably the best way,
Speaker 5: and we'd love to connect and always love trying. I
Speaker 5: try to respond to comments when you know, if there's
Speaker 5: questions or whatever, it's it's it's difficult, but I try
Speaker 5: to work through and make sure that because so many
Speaker 5: people are offering really great kind of conversation and I'm
Speaker 5: just loving being a part of the community, like this
Speaker 5: lesbian dialogue around these topics, and I didn't find like
Speaker 5: there was a lot for me when I was like
Speaker 5: back to my day, I didn't opportunity, you know, to
Speaker 5: kind of engage in these kind of conversations in a
Speaker 5: public way. And so I'm loving it, Like I'm loving
Speaker 5: the comments and the conversation is so fun.
Speaker 1: Your content is like perfection.
Speaker 5: I love it.
Speaker 1: And it's also like right on time.
Speaker 2: And you know how Instagram shows you who else likes
Speaker 2: like the same thing. I always noticed that, like, well,
Speaker 2: I like all your stuff, but I noticed that every
Speaker 2: like a lot of my our crew also does so
Speaker 2: that's so fun. Yeah, I love your content. Everybody should
Speaker 2: follow Laurie Silpazio. It's great relationship stuff.
Speaker 5: Appreciate it so much. Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 6: I have a.
Speaker 1: I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast.
Speaker 3: Rate us and write a review on Apple podcast or Spotify.
Speaker 1: We love listener feedback.
Speaker 2: If you'd like to share your story, email us at
Speaker 2: Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: That's Melissa M. E. L I s A and Ali
Speaker 1: A L. L I at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Or follow us on Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles