Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
as well as the social media manager and co administrator
for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
in crime.
Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder.
Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas.
Speaker 3: We're joined today by Ashley Spence, a prior guest to
our podcast. She's here to talk to us about her
book Silent Witness, How DNA uncovered the truth and empowered
my healing. Ashley, thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 5: I can't thank you enough for having me back on again.
I'm so excited and grateful. Y'all are one of my
favorite podcasts, and I'm not just saying it because I'm here,
I mean it. So it's an honor.
Speaker 2: Wow, we owe you at least five dollars. Now, you
were so wonderful last time. We both said we wanted
to have you back, and your new book is wonderful
and this gives us a great opportunity. What a good
jumping off point.
Speaker 5: I'm all my gratitude. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3: The last time that you were on here, you talked
to us about surviving a truly horrific home invasion rape
when you were a sophomore at ASU in two thousand
and three. We don't want you to get back into
the details again because that is horrible. But for anybody
who may have missed your episode, can you just give
us a short suite into the point version.
Speaker 5: Yes, as you said, I was nineteen, I was really
excited to begin my sophomore year at Arizona Stadium from
Texas originally, and so getting that freedom to be on
my own again for the second year. I was so
excited to get back feel I went a little bit
early just to get to know my new roommate, get
settled in my new apartment, and I was a victim
one night of a very brutal home invasion, repeated rape,
and I was very lucky to survive. I barely did,
but I'm very grateful that I did because I worked
day and night with detectives after I never saw the
perpetrator's face, and he told me before he left, don't
tell anybody, because I'll be watching you, just like I
had been before, and if you do, I'll kill you.
And the fear was so crazy because you don't know
who did it, and they let you're all over the
news and then I've lost my whole sense of self
that that makes sense along the way, because I became
the victim on the news and there was no leads
and I felt confined to it. So I ended up
dropping out of school and I moved to Newport Beach, California,
before coming back home to Texas. I won't go into
too much right now because we'll probably dive into it,
but my perpetrator was eventually actually arrested in California because
they are one of nineteen states that has a law
to collect DNA at the point of all felony arrests.
Because of that incredible law, he was extradited to Arizona
where he is now in Prince We went to trial
at the whole thing, and he's in prison for one
hundred and thirty seven point five years. DNA gave me justice,
which I'm very grateful for.
Speaker 2: I liked one hundred and thirty seven point five year
sentence too, ends might.
Speaker 3: Add absolutely, And so as part of the aftermath of
that crime, you went about creating the DNA Justice Project.
So tell our listeners a little bit about the DNA
Justice Project and what you hope to accomplish with it.
Speaker 5: I created a DNA Justice Project. I started it after
a woman who's my mentor, like a second mother, Jan Seppich.
She has recently retired, but she had a foundation DNA
Saves for fifteen years. Her daughter, Katie Seppich, was brutally
raped and murdered just weeks after my attack in two
thousand and three, but a totally unrelated thing in New Mexico,
and she did not make it, and her mom and
family fought for DNA laws because eventually, you know, her
perpetrator was caught. He had been in and out of trouble,
and so they advocated all over the country for forensic
DNA laws she retired and I met her in Texas
just testifying at Usta Have Yoga Studios. I never thought
I would be doing this full time. I didn't know
anything about forensic science and DNA. Now I'm totally obsessed
with it, but I can't learn enough. I love it.
I love it so much, It's so incredible, and so
now I have my Foundation DNA Justice Project, and my
primary role is to travel around and educate the public
and policymakers on the value of forensic DNA policy and
technology in the criminal justice system, not just to give
justice to families and victims waiting for hope, as you
will know and Bill, and to exonerate those that are
wrongfully in our prisons today, and to prevent I'm a
mom and so having a child and knowing that this
can help prevent these repeat violent crimes from happening to
hopefully our children and their friends is what keeps me going.
Speaker 2: One of the things we're hoping is that Kristin and
I have been talking with their friends at Athram Labs
in the Woodlands, Texas.
Speaker 6: I get a kick out of the name.
Speaker 5: I love them by the ways I know, and.
Speaker 2: So they've been putting together this conference, and they had
asked us to attend. The date has shifted, and so
it keeps getting moved a little further out. They've just
got a lot of stuff going on. But we're hoping
that our pass will cross with yours so that we
can be in the same space. It's people are always
surprised on mind o of a murder when we confess
that we have so many of these fantastic relationships. They're
all electronic. They are phone internet, zoom calls it, and
we actually don't meet people as often in the same
physical space as we would like. And we're hoping, actually
that our paths will cross with yours, perhaps at the
OTHRAM conference, which will be date to be determined.
Speaker 5: That would be amazing. There's something very powerful. I'm so
grateful to technology and that you can create like this,
but there is something about having your energy in the
same room that is very powerful.
Speaker 3: Let me ask you this, for someone who is going
through the same horrific trauma that you went through. What
are the things that the DNA Justice Project can do
to help victims both immediately like in the aftermath, and
also down the road as they go through the justice system.
Speaker 5: I'm kind of a connector of different organizations and areas.
I love Rain. There are great research as far as
when you look at actual safe houses or places to
go if you're a victim of sexual assault or domestic violence.
They have a national hotline. I love to refer people
to them. They also have a website, not so much
if you're in some of the rural counties, they don't
have as many on there for that, but they have
all across the country places that you can go. I'm
very passionate about every victim knowing through DNA Justice Project
because this is something that I think that we can
all say is not talked about very much. What do
you do if you are assaulted? I hope that would
never have happened, but I didn't know what to do.
I was blessed with an amazing first responding officer, and
I know that's not always the case, but I have
the most incredible one, and he guided me to the
next step. So I like to share with people that
you get yourself, find a clinic in your area, in
your town that is trained in trauma informed sexual assault
nurse examinations. They have sane programs. You don't have to
press charges if you go there. I think this is
really important to let people know that you can go
and have an entire sexual sult nurist examination by a trained,
qualified provider. In the end, ultimately, if you decide you
don't want to press charges, that's fine, that you will
get treatment. They'll assess your body, make sure that you
get started on your path to healing. Those are areas
I'm very passionate about, and through DNA Justice Project, my
focus is advocating for stronger DNA laws Right now. For example,
I'm a little tired because last week I was in
Nashville for DNA briefings all week and then I get
finally on Friday night, Yes, I'm home. And then I
get a note from Georgia that the senators and my
bills running Monday at four pm, And I wrote, wow,
well either, So I was there. We testified last night,
and then I flew back home and I testified virtually
today in West Virginia. So what I'm trying to do
with this is you can do great work. They're amazing
organizations that are doing works and like the rate Kit
and things like that. But what we need to do
is enhance our DNA database in a just way, because
you can clear out backlogs, you can clear out cases.
If you don't have the DNA and the database, you're
not going to get the hits. So that's the primary
focus that.
Speaker 2: I have right now, and you're mostly working at the
state level, in other words, state by state, trying to
get states to change their laws to allow for more
facilitated search and getting more information into the various state
and local databases.
Speaker 6: Is that fair?
Speaker 5: That's fair. Yes. So when you're arrested for a felony,
I want every felony. That's how my perpetrator was caught
because what he was in and out of crime his
whole life, for voyeurism, burglary, theft. They were never swabbing
him for DNA. He finally got swabbed in California for
resisting the officer. But guess what, his sister came to
trial and said that they're certain he's murdered people. He
wasn't getting caught for that. He wasn't getting caught for
these violent sexual assaults, but he was getting caught for
little like resisting the officer. So that triggered a process
in the criminal system in California. Because I had that
law to swab his cheek. They uploaded it for that
offense and it hit all of these assaults that totally
across state lines. So we know criminals don't stay in
their place, right.
Speaker 2: This guy was traveling all over the country the world.
Speaker 5: He was one of the Olympics, but yes, he was
traveling all over the country, primarily targeting college age women.
So we take odd jobs painting. That's probably what happened
at my apartment complex. So we need to get we
need to get every state on board. And there's nineteen
thirty one DY for certain violent felony arrests, which is
a great start, but this is a way that we
can start to get hits. What's really exciting in Texas
is we passed this version of the law in twenty
twenty three. In Texas Department of Public Safety last week
published our numbers. We solved one thousand and five cases
just through this legislation alone this last year.
Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, that is amazing. Talk about a fantastic result.
Speaker 5: Incredible, it's incredible, and every state needs to be doing it.
Speaker 3: And it isn't just recent cases. Are you clearing cases
that are our years and even decades old.
Speaker 5: With this forty years fifty years old. Wow, And that's
what I want to say with you all too. It's
my favorite thing about forensic DNA and the technology and
all these advancements. But we have to obviously get the
policy and the funding and people on board. But it's hope.
We are closing cases that you would think would never
be able to be closed. And I speak with victims
that are just waiting. There's actually two women in Massachusetts
that I had been talking to. They hadn't had any
justice and DNA just now connected the dots and they're
waiting for their perpetrator to be extraduided from California to Massachusetts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been following that case and actually we were
asked to cover that case, and of course I'm from
Massachusetts and had lived in California. We've actually been asked
to hold off for a little bit longer because the
hope is that this offender will be brought back to
Massachusetts to face justice all these years later. What an
exciting case and we're looking forward to covering it. We
were asked to cover it, we said yes, but they said,
can you just wait a little bit longer until the
process And of course as we know, legal process often
moves more slowly than we'd like it to. We're very
optimistic and we're hoping that these two women that were
assaulted all those years ago will finally be able to
face down their captor.
Speaker 5: They're my heroes. I've become close with them and I'm
very inspire a lot like you, not giving up that hope.
It's so easy to it seems it's the easier path
because it can be so unfair and seems so unjust,
and you're living in this pain. But then it's because
of their determination and grit with this that you know,
they kept pushing. They kept pushing for you know, this
case to get closed, and it did. Hopefully they get
you know, the chance at trial and justice.
Speaker 3: So I want to switch gears to the book for
a second. It's a wonderful book. You are very frying
about the emotional impact of your experience in your book.
It's difficult to read, but it's very worthwhile because it
is so impactful. Let me ask you this, was this
a difficult book for you to write or did you
find it cathartic or was it like a little bit
of both.
Speaker 5: It was very difficult. I felt it in my soul
for years, and then I started the process in twenty twenty.
I took a Gabby Bernstein master boss writing your book
online and I started diving into it. And then I
had all the chapters fleshed out, and then I wasn't ready.
I wasn't ready, I thought, and then finally I knew
it was time to start the process. And it's been
very it's been liberating because it's very messy too, Like
I own all of the dark and the light and
the dark even within me, and it's very freeing just
to we're so used to the filter life of social
media now just to be like, hey, it's really freaking messy.
If you really want to do the work and heal,
it's the hardest thing you're ever going to do in
your life, and it requires more strength than you could
ever imagine and more softness. It's this balance and messiness
and owning all of it and so being able to
have that out there was really scary, very scary. But
now that it's out there, it's freeing and I'm finding
what is it. You're not supposed to be for everybody,
but if you're authentic, you're going to find your people,
and I feel like that's what's happening with this book organically.
A lot of it's just on my own grassroots movement
pushing it out there, and I'm finding people that are
connecting with it in such a deep way, and that
feels it feels amazing, It feels so good.
Speaker 2: So this is something though that it took a while
for you to get there. How many years ago do
you think it was when you first thought I should
write a book versus actually circling back to Okay, I
really am going to write a book. Now there's a
gap there. How many years would you say it'd gone
by when trial ended?
Speaker 5: I remember this woman reached out to me from like
a New York Times or some writer I don't remember,
and we started down the path of this because she
was really interested. But I stopped it because it felt
really dark at that point. The focus was more on
the true crime part, which is a part of it, right,
But I pulled the brakes because all of a sudden
it felt like that's not the only message though. But
I wasn't ready because I've my journey of healing has
been very hard, and it's been very recent too, so
I would get like these intuitive feels that Okay, I
know I have a book in me, so I'll be
like running on the trail, which is my favorite place,
and I'll stop and I'll write something on my phone. Oh,
I don't want to forget this. And then I did
yoga teacher training, and in that you have to write
like journals of stuff. So I had content when then
I was flushing out. But it took time, but their
word breaks, and it got to the point to where
I thought, maybe my story will never be ready because
then there's this and this, and then you could cut
it off at some point and just be fearless and
just say, okay, this is it. Yeah. It was a
long process, actually, but I'm grateful for waiting. I'm grateful
the timing ended up aligning for the message that I
wanted to put out there.
Speaker 3: You talk a lot about the ways that you sought
to heal yourself from this experience, and obviously healing looks
different for every person. Talk to us about the things
that worked for you and made your life start to
feel whole again after undergoing this trauma.
Speaker 5: I have tried every healing modality in the book. I'm
telling you, what was your cutout was I.
Speaker 3: Was like, yeah.
Speaker 5: And then one time I was in the East side
of Austin and this psychics trailer and he's, yeah, I
think that's a different book. Okay, okay, okay, good feedback,
but no, I've tried everything. But what really started to
if you're a victim, and there's this lot for many
of us we suppress and hide. And I was shocked
at how many people once I started coming out with
my story and turn shared stories with me that some
had numbers told anybody. Sometimes I think that's what we
do to survive, right, Like I think there's a level
of our brain. There's only so much pain that we
can process at once. So I think a detachment can
sometimes be survival. But when that detachment perpetuates and then
you let it grow and you hide this, but then
on the outside you're smiling, it's very dangerous, I think,
because you're never feeling. And one of my greatest teachers,
he's a wounded warrior in Iraq. He actually lost both
of his legs there and he teaches yoga now and
he says he helped me learn to speak. And he
told me one day, in order to heal, you have
to feel. You have to feel it. You have to
feel it all, and that's so hard, it's really hard.
But you also have to have the tools. And then
he would always say, and then when you feel and
you release part of it, then you have to ground
yourself and take a few breaths, feel your feet into
the ground. Look at how far you've come. You're safe,
You're safe in your body. And there wasn't just one thing.
Yoga for me helped me get sober and clear. And
I felt very, to be honest, like disgusted with my
body after this happened. I felt this, I felt foreign,
I felt disgusting. I felt like I was wearing a
body of someone that wasn't mine, that was damaged and
broken and just icky. It just I never felt like
me after it for a very long time. And what
yoga did was what I didn't realize at the time,
was it wasn't just calmbing my anxiety with all the
breath were. It was making me connect to my physical
body and focus on different parts. And then I remember
I was in this boy you're two pose and your
feet root down and my arms were extended out and
I'm sweating and I'm sober because I can't go in
there on all sorts of alcohol and stuff to be
sober for it, which at the time that's how I
was self medicating, and so it was a big deal.
And I would just feel like a surge of power
from my soul. It felt like that radiate out and
that's when it clicked and I started to think, Oh
my gosh, like maybe this guy did not take my power?
Is it there? Like it was such a cool feeling.
So there were little things. There's not one path of healing,
but I want everyone to know you can heal and
for some people. For me, it's a combo. I love nature.
I got into walking them turned into running music as
such a great healer of the soul and being able
to connect with people and be vulnerable and real about
what you've been. It's free. There's been many things that
I've had to do to heal, but they've all helped
me immensely. But it's a lifelong journey.
Speaker 6: You're listening to Mind over Murder.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors.
Speaker 6: We're back here at Mind over Murder.
Speaker 2: I was thinking about this because at least from the
point if we use the sexual assault as a starting point.
You're only nineteen years old. Back then, there's no way
you're going to be able to offer the insight and
the wisdom and the growth that you went through from
back when you were a college student at age nineteen.
Now you bring so much more to the conversation. It
almost feels like the time and experience and the positives
that have come into your life they needed to happen
before you could get to a place where you could
write Silent Witness.
Speaker 5: I wholeheartedly agree. Now I do. I'm very I'm very proud.
It's weird to say you're proud of yourself, but I'm like, man,
if you knew the depths of hell that I lived in,
the haunted me, I didn't think I would make it
one day. I didn't think I would make it through
the night. And then I was like going to community college,
and I'm graduating college. Then I'm going through yoga, teacher chaining,
I'm getting a job. I'm like this, it seems small,
but these were the most significant milestones that I didn't
think I would ever have. So it's really cool to
have waited to then share these insights as I've grown
and evolved and just to give hope to others. There
is a grief that I was nineteen, like you all know,
going through tragedies so young and lost. It's heartbreaking, and
there was a while in my healing where I just
was stuck in grief for that. Like everything, I think,
there's something about healing, and then there's something about like
finding the strength to not live in victimhood. It's a balance,
for sure, but making the conscious decision. Healer told me once,
you have to choose to exit pain over and over again.
Yes you have to feel it, but you also don't
have to choose. Okay, enough now I need to exit
it and I need to move forward. So it's a dance,
not always a graceful one.
Speaker 3: You had said a couple of minutes ago that you
want everyone to know that healing is possible. What are
some of the other things that you want every rape
survivor to know?
Speaker 5: Just think you don't just have to survive. The pathway
to healing from this. It's long and it's hard, but
you can. You can recover to not just live in
a life of survival. I thought for so long, I
hope this is okay to say, but I think it's important.
Like sex to me was disgusting. My body was disgusting.
I never thought I would have sacred intimacy, which I
realized a lot of that. It really damaged the self
love that I felt for myself. So I was attracting
unhealthy after my marriage, and he was amazing, but we
met at very young ages and then we just grew
apart because I wasn't processing. It was like two lives.
When then I started to talk about it, and I
changed so much. And then after that I hit rock
bottom after I started talking about it. So it's like that,
I say, healing is not like that straight you want
it to be. You're just like walking to the top. Yes,
it feels so good, but it's oh, I feel great,
and then holy how I'm back at rock bottom, beyond
if I could ever imagine. Yeah, so I've done that.
And after I started to share my story in twenty seventeen,
I hit horrible rock bottom, and then you can attract
unhealthy relationships. I was in some very because I didn't care.
I didn't care about myself, I didn't care about my
body and all these different things. And then I started
to realize, like I did urbal medicine school. And this
sounds really weird, but like cooking with herbs and like
to nourish, and like medicinally it got me. I used
to not care what I ate, Like I could eat everything,
I could eat nothing, it didn't matter because again disconnection. Right,
I wasn't trying to have any eating disorder, but I
just was so disconnected. And then herbal medicine, you're like
making all these like concoctions and then you're cooking medicinally,
and it got me really tapped into caring about my body.
But then like sensuality and self love. And I just
want you to know that that the rape doesn't define you,
and it doesn't. It does. It's something that we have
to battle, but you can heal and retap into that
sacredness like Goddess, divine goodness that we are inherently that's
what we are. And I feel like that was I
never knew what to do because no one talked about
it ever. You know, no one ever talked about that,
so I didn't know that healing was possible in that way.
And you can be safe in your body, and I
think those are all really important things for victims to
hear survivors.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So it's beyond a life goes on message. It's
more much more profound than that.
Speaker 5: Yes, it's deep. And one cool thing about the story
that I have with DNA Justice Project is I got
to bring my children to when we got it passed
in Texas. And they're just really cool kids because they're
very supportive of this and mom has to get on
planes and leave them, but they know that I'm going
to help with crime. And I got to take them
to the Senate Chamber and they got to see the
bill be read and to see it be passed. And
then I just told them last week before I left
for Nash Well for DNA work, that the Texas Department
of Public Safety put that out that we close one
thousand and five cases in the state. And they just gasped,
and they were so excited being able to show like
you can go through really hard stuff and life can
be very incredibly unfair, as you all know. I don't
need to tell you that, but that you can't turn
the pain into hope and change. And there's something very
like tragically beautiful about that.
Speaker 2: Well, And did they go to the Texas State House
in Austin with you they did.
Speaker 5: Yes, they don't. My son knows more now because it
was time. That's a whole that's a whole nother podcast. Okay,
but they're young though, But they don't. They didn't know
what happened. They just knew that I was working to
get DNA to help with crime and to get bad
people off the streets and to good people be free
and to keep them safe. And so they got to go,
and I have pictures of them to stand, but they
were I was like, be on your good behavior and
then they're like running all around the top. I'm like,
oh my gosh, but it's pretty cool.
Speaker 2: But their takeaway was still, this is what part of
what mom does, and this is important and this helps people.
And having been to the state House in Austin and
most other state houses around the country and my previous life,
what a spectacular place and what a spectacular outcome for
you to be working with the legislature and to move
the law forward. And then to see over a thousand
cases solved to date and there'll be more to come.
Speaker 5: What's emotional and it it makes it so hard I
forget because you get on these highs and then legislative
session comes and then you get crushing blows and you
get pushed back. You have to have really thick skin
and in three minutes or five you can. You have
to testify and pour your heart out and then give
the facts and convince people on something that you know
saves lives and will solve cases. So many victims will
continue to have justice withheld because we are no maximizing
these DNA collection laws. It's just facts. The system is proven,
and we only have nineteen states doing it to the
full potential. Okay, so that is a huge gap. And
then you get met sometimes with We barely got out
of Georgia. Senator Williams is incredible and he's fighting for
the good and he believes it in his soul, not
just for victims, but for those that are innocent. But
we got out. It was a five to four vote
and it was hard West Virginia. Today. I was met
with extreme opposition. This is my fourth year to try there, Okay,
and it's the same people that really apposed. It breaks
your heart a little bit, but it makes when you
get it done that much sweeter. But we know the outcome,
we know it's good.
Speaker 3: What is their principal opposition to this because this really
doesn't seem to me like anything other than a positive
potential outcome. So I'm really curious if you've been fighting
this for four years now in West Virginia for the
people who don't want this, why, I just don't understand it.
Speaker 5: So there's a few different things. Constitutionality, everyone's very worried
about that. But there was a case Maryland versus King
twenty thirteen. My perpetrator is arrested in twenty ten. We
couldn't go to trial until twenty fifteen, harshly because we
were waiting on the Supreme Court ruling. So they found
in this case, thankfully, that taking your DNA cheek swab
for qualifying arrest is a reasonable part of the booking procedure,
and they compared it to fingerprints. So therefore, under the
Fourth Amendment, it's a go. Because of that, I was
able to go to trial. I explain that to people,
but they still get very freaked out. Then I explained
that our DNA database. I know that we've talked about athroam,
but what goes into codis, which is the combined DNA
index system that is not the same thing as ancestry
dot Com it's actually completely different. And I don't want
to bore you, but you might know this, but just
a high level, what go our DNA is made up
of three billion markers. What goes into our national DNA
database for this stuff only on ey to twenty four
markers of those three billion were picked by genetic scientists.
That it has no coding information. It doesn't say that
I'm Lebanese, if I'm predisposed to any genetic diseases, doesn't
have a street name, it doesn't even have an actual name,
and they are just a specimen ID number. And so
it's a very good system. The only thing you can
tell if you knew would be male or female, if
you knew how to read them. They're just numbers. We've
never had a breach in our DNA database. Even if
they did, they would just find numbers. You can't be
precluded from getting work or getting hired by having your
DNA in the database, because it's not that. What is
public is you're a mugshot, you're a rest record, right.
The DNA profile is not, and it's something entirely different.
But I it's such a battle to get people to
understand that. And they also say innocent till proven guilty.
And guess what, I believe that too. I am for justice.
I'm not just for victims. I'm not I want to
see the whole trial process. I want the justice process
to be as good as it can be right, and
this helps with that. This is justice and it's a tool.
I still had to go to trial from the d
in evidence and they had everyone had to work together.
It is science and it is truth, and it's powerful
that you It's like this constant battle, and I just
I thought I was gonna walk in and just be like, Okay,
God gave me this story that I survived, and that's
really hard for one time. But now I'm gonna go
change all the laws and it's gonna be over worth it.
And then you're just like, wait, So that's not the
response at all.
Speaker 2: Roadblock after roadblock. Oh and I love the Okay, Ashley,
you have five minutes or three minutes to explain why
this is worthwhile and give some background on your own
personal experience. I don't know how you can cram that
much knowledge and life experience into three to five minutes.
Speaker 5: I talked very fast, but you know what I've learned
is to be kind and email people. Can you please
ask me a question for everyone to Can you ask
me a follow up question on this maybe? But yesterday
it was you have between one to five minutes and
they'll let you know when you get in there. I'm like,
one to five.
Speaker 2: One to five minutes. It's insane.
Speaker 3: That sounds like the elevator pitch from Hell my God,
it is.
Speaker 5: I'm always sweating. I'm like, oh, listen, you know.
Speaker 2: But the follow up questions from legislators have to be
very helpful if they give you an opportunity to fill
in some knowledge gaps and explain what it is that
we're talking about.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, and there's so much information that's so good for it,
and you have to get your compelling story and I
take that sandwich of emotion facts emotion really quick. But
the follow up questions help because I've poured my heart
and soul and life into this now and I've studied
a lot of it, and as I like to hear
people's descent because it makes me, I'm like, huh, let
me look into that more. Or I think the conversations
are great to have. I still think, after all of
my studies of this, we have the stronger case here
that everyone should be doing this. Literally, every single state
should be doing this. There's no reason why we shouldn't be.
There's no reason.
Speaker 3: Agreed. Absolutely, I want to actually circle back again one
more time to it's a variant on a question I
asked you earlier, So a couple of minutes ago, i'd asked,
what are the things that you want every rape survivor
to know? I want to ask a question that I
think is equally as important, which is, what are the
things that you want law enforcement officers and first responders
to know about best practices when working with rape survivors,
Because there are so many of them that can get
it wrong. Tell them. For anybody who's listening, please tell
them how to get it right.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I was blessed with angels. I know that's not
the case. But everyone that was working my case, from
the first responding officer to the forensic nurse, the detectives,
they were trained so well. But then there was one
person I remember, and she was more cold and she
was accusatory. I'm very glad that she wasn't the one
working my whole case, because I got so scared and
I thought, oh my gosh, if this can happen while
I'm in my room and you're treating me like this.
How would somebody feel in a different scenario. But what
I can say is the first responding officer in my case,
he was the reason that I move forward. I want
everyone to know you have to be able to hold
space in a way. You might not have to be
trauma totally trauma informed. I would love for everyone in
these scenarios to be. But there's also like an intuitive
knowing of how to be gentle and delicate, make the
victim feel safe. If you're the first responding officer, guide
them to the next step. But then you want them
to go to a hospital. It's equally important that our
nurses are trained in this, because if you go somewhere
that they aren't, you're going to have a completely different experience.
And it's very harsh to come out of a scenario
like that and have to go through all of these things.
But it is so critically important that you're treating the
victim with care, dignity, and respect.
Speaker 2: A lighter question, was this a conscious decision for silent witness?
I noticed the color and the graphics and everything. It's
very girly. I would say, it's pink with magenta and beautiful,
almost looks like handwritten text. Was this all a conscious
decision on your part? This almost looks almost like a
romance novel or a Valentine and in that way it's
very attractive. Was that a conscious decision on your part?
Speaker 5: Okay, this is a great conversation. I met my publisher
actually at the National Conference of State Legislators, which is
a wild story. Anyways, our values, they've been phenomenal, and
so they actually put together four different things. But I
did say there was one thing that I thought for
a while that maybe the title be called Here Comes
the Sun because a Beatles song. But then it was
like too happy. Okay, so right, that's that one. But
then there were other options, but they looked very dark.
And the one thing I did say to him, I go,
this looks feminine. I am sending these to legislators so
that they hopefully passed this. And he said, let's be real,
like the majority of your readers are going to be women.
And I actually thought about it. I was a little hurt,
and then I thought about it. I'm like, he's not wrong.
And if with the cover you can you can see it.
You can picture it in a bookstore and it stands
out right. Yes, and it's beautiful in a weird way.
But the other ones were kind of dark and cry,
which is part of the book. But that's like, not
the whole book actually, right, it's.
Speaker 2: More so there's that sunny, optimistic there's hope in this
book that is conveyed more than a bit by the approach,
because when you get into it, there's some very dark
moments because they're part of your story. But I was
very struck by this, and I thought that I thought
you and your publisher made a very smart decision to
present this in a way that's loving or even romantic.
And I thought this almost looks like a Valentine you.
Speaker 5: Talking about it. Okay, so that's good. But yeah, and
it's not just sunny, it's not. It's fully optimist, pained.
Speaker 2: Yes, oh, once you get into the book itself, of course, yeah.
But I was surprised by that. When you were kind
enough to send us the books, I.
Speaker 5: Debated that a lot with them, but then at the
end that was the one that just it stuck with
me and I just thought, I don't know, it's beautiful
to me, and he is he was right? Primarily the
people are reading this book are women.
Speaker 3: What else do you feel like you need to say
about your story, your healing, the process that you're still
going through. Have you said it all in the book
or can you see there being a second volume to this?
Are you continuing to have that conversation or is this
You've done it, You've closed the book and we're good.
Speaker 5: I want to focus the next part on the healing,
actual healing and getting into the goods of that, because
I wasn't able to in this book, and there's been
I've had so many learning I opened a yoga studio
and I had so much growth there, and it wasn't
just that. There's just so many healing modalities and just
cool synchronicities. Whatever you believe and if you believe in
anything higher power. I've had a lot of that in
my life, and I lost my faith for a very
long time after this, and then I was able to
reconnect to it. So I would love to dive more.
The second thing will be more focused on that, and
that one really excites me.
Speaker 2: I thought the next book was going to be what
the heck is wrong with you? And have it be
addressed to your legislators that don't get why you think
this is important to get innocent people out of jail
and put guilty people in jail.
Speaker 5: I've taken the sweet approach with them all, and that
the little Southern charm. And maybe I'm wondering if I
need to take a harsher one, but then I harsher
onuns and they're not getting a better outcome. It's a
fine line, but I think a little bit of calling
out is not a bad thing.
Speaker 3: Ashley. Where can everybody find your book?
Speaker 5: You can get it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, my website,
Ashleyspence dot com, my foundation website, DNA Justice Project dot org.
Speaker 3: This has been such an honor and a privilege to
talk to you about this because the book is amazing,
the work that you're doing is amazing, and the just
amount of grace and courage that you have shown going
through this whole entire process is amazing as well. So
thank you for being willing to share that with us
and with our listeners. We really appreciate it and we're
better for it.
Speaker 5: I'm the one that's honored that you are opening up
space for me again a second time. It's truly my
great honor, and I just admire you both so much
and the work that you do, and I'm constantly working
for that justice as well. I want every victim to
have justice that I felt, and it doesn't take away
the pain, but it gives you this closure that we
all deserve in our own ways, we victims.
Speaker 2: I hope it's evident that we're big fans of you
and your work, and if there's anything that we can
do to help the DNA Justice Project move forward, we'll
be including of course links to the DNA Justice Project
in our show notes to your book, and also you
mentioned the Rain Network, which we're familiar with, will include
their information and their eight hundred number, which is eight
hundred sixty five six hope or sixty five six four
six seventy three. The work that you're doing, I think
is incredibly important and we're very inspired by it.
Speaker 5: I feel the same about you. Thank you so much.
I'm so grateful.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Ashley. That is going to do
it for this episode of Mind Over Murder. Thank you
so much for listening. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
another Dog productions.
Speaker 2: Our Executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 6: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.
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Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.