1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:43,679 Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 15 00:00:43,759 --> 00:00:45,799 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:46,679 --> 00:00:50,039 Speaker 3: We're joined today by Ashley Spence, a prior guest to 17 00:00:50,119 --> 00:00:52,320 our podcast. She's here to talk to us about her 18 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,240 book Silent Witness, How DNA uncovered the truth and empowered 19 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,840 my healing. Ashley, thank you for joining us today. 20 00:00:59,119 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 5: I can't thank you enough for having me back on again. 21 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,359 I'm so excited and grateful. Y'all are one of my 22 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,319 favorite podcasts, and I'm not just saying it because I'm here, 23 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:07,719 I mean it. So it's an honor. 24 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:13,519 Speaker 2: Wow, we owe you at least five dollars. Now, you 25 00:01:13,599 --> 00:01:16,920 were so wonderful last time. We both said we wanted 26 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,680 to have you back, and your new book is wonderful 27 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,280 and this gives us a great opportunity. What a good 28 00:01:22,359 --> 00:01:23,120 jumping off point. 29 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,519 Speaker 5: I'm all my gratitude. I appreciate it. 30 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 3: The last time that you were on here, you talked 31 00:01:28,239 --> 00:01:32,719 to us about surviving a truly horrific home invasion rape 32 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,319 when you were a sophomore at ASU in two thousand 33 00:01:35,359 --> 00:01:37,560 and three. We don't want you to get back into 34 00:01:37,599 --> 00:01:40,920 the details again because that is horrible. But for anybody 35 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,560 who may have missed your episode, can you just give 36 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,319 us a short suite into the point version. 37 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 5: Yes, as you said, I was nineteen, I was really 38 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,799 excited to begin my sophomore year at Arizona Stadium from 39 00:01:52,879 --> 00:01:56,200 Texas originally, and so getting that freedom to be on 40 00:01:56,239 --> 00:01:58,480 my own again for the second year. I was so 41 00:01:58,519 --> 00:02:01,640 excited to get back feel I went a little bit 42 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,879 early just to get to know my new roommate, get 43 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,799 settled in my new apartment, and I was a victim 44 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,159 one night of a very brutal home invasion, repeated rape, 45 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:13,840 and I was very lucky to survive. I barely did, 46 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,840 but I'm very grateful that I did because I worked 47 00:02:16,879 --> 00:02:19,240 day and night with detectives after I never saw the 48 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,319 perpetrator's face, and he told me before he left, don't 49 00:02:22,319 --> 00:02:24,479 tell anybody, because I'll be watching you, just like I 50 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,400 had been before, and if you do, I'll kill you. 51 00:02:26,479 --> 00:02:30,120 And the fear was so crazy because you don't know 52 00:02:30,159 --> 00:02:31,759 who did it, and they let you're all over the 53 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,439 news and then I've lost my whole sense of self 54 00:02:34,439 --> 00:02:36,319 that that makes sense along the way, because I became 55 00:02:36,319 --> 00:02:38,360 the victim on the news and there was no leads 56 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,439 and I felt confined to it. So I ended up 57 00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:42,759 dropping out of school and I moved to Newport Beach, California, 58 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,520 before coming back home to Texas. I won't go into 59 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,080 too much right now because we'll probably dive into it, 60 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,360 but my perpetrator was eventually actually arrested in California because 61 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,639 they are one of nineteen states that has a law 62 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,800 to collect DNA at the point of all felony arrests. 63 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:59,000 Because of that incredible law, he was extradited to Arizona 64 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,080 where he is now in Prince We went to trial 65 00:03:01,199 --> 00:03:03,039 at the whole thing, and he's in prison for one 66 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,919 hundred and thirty seven point five years. DNA gave me justice, 67 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:07,439 which I'm very grateful for. 68 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,159 Speaker 2: I liked one hundred and thirty seven point five year 69 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,639 sentence too, ends might. 70 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:17,439 Speaker 3: Add absolutely, And so as part of the aftermath of 71 00:03:17,879 --> 00:03:23,759 that crime, you went about creating the DNA Justice Project. 72 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,280 So tell our listeners a little bit about the DNA 73 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,960 Justice Project and what you hope to accomplish with it. 74 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,439 Speaker 5: I created a DNA Justice Project. I started it after 75 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,199 a woman who's my mentor, like a second mother, Jan Seppich. 76 00:03:36,639 --> 00:03:39,759 She has recently retired, but she had a foundation DNA 77 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,879 Saves for fifteen years. Her daughter, Katie Seppich, was brutally 78 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,000 raped and murdered just weeks after my attack in two 79 00:03:47,039 --> 00:03:50,120 thousand and three, but a totally unrelated thing in New Mexico, 80 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,080 and she did not make it, and her mom and 81 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,599 family fought for DNA laws because eventually, you know, her 82 00:03:56,639 --> 00:04:00,080 perpetrator was caught. He had been in and out of trouble, 83 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,800 and so they advocated all over the country for forensic 84 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,719 DNA laws she retired and I met her in Texas 85 00:04:06,759 --> 00:04:09,159 just testifying at Usta Have Yoga Studios. I never thought 86 00:04:09,159 --> 00:04:11,599 I would be doing this full time. I didn't know 87 00:04:11,599 --> 00:04:14,840 anything about forensic science and DNA. Now I'm totally obsessed 88 00:04:14,879 --> 00:04:18,120 with it, but I can't learn enough. I love it. 89 00:04:18,319 --> 00:04:21,279 I love it so much, It's so incredible, and so 90 00:04:21,319 --> 00:04:24,360 now I have my Foundation DNA Justice Project, and my 91 00:04:24,399 --> 00:04:28,000 primary role is to travel around and educate the public 92 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,399 and policymakers on the value of forensic DNA policy and 93 00:04:31,399 --> 00:04:34,199 technology in the criminal justice system, not just to give 94 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,560 justice to families and victims waiting for hope, as you 95 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,319 will know and Bill, and to exonerate those that are 96 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,600 wrongfully in our prisons today, and to prevent I'm a 97 00:04:45,639 --> 00:04:48,079 mom and so having a child and knowing that this 98 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,519 can help prevent these repeat violent crimes from happening to 99 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,600 hopefully our children and their friends is what keeps me going. 100 00:04:55,519 --> 00:04:58,319 Speaker 2: One of the things we're hoping is that Kristin and 101 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,959 I have been talking with their friends at Athram Labs 102 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,720 in the Woodlands, Texas. 103 00:05:03,759 --> 00:05:04,959 Speaker 6: I get a kick out of the name. 104 00:05:05,439 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 5: I love them by the ways I know, and. 105 00:05:07,399 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: So they've been putting together this conference, and they had 106 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,360 asked us to attend. The date has shifted, and so 107 00:05:14,439 --> 00:05:17,199 it keeps getting moved a little further out. They've just 108 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,399 got a lot of stuff going on. But we're hoping 109 00:05:19,639 --> 00:05:22,480 that our pass will cross with yours so that we 110 00:05:22,519 --> 00:05:25,639 can be in the same space. It's people are always 111 00:05:25,639 --> 00:05:28,160 surprised on mind o of a murder when we confess 112 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,000 that we have so many of these fantastic relationships. They're 113 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:37,439 all electronic. They are phone internet, zoom calls it, and 114 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,920 we actually don't meet people as often in the same 115 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,759 physical space as we would like. And we're hoping, actually 116 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,399 that our paths will cross with yours, perhaps at the 117 00:05:48,439 --> 00:05:51,920 OTHRAM conference, which will be date to be determined. 118 00:05:52,519 --> 00:05:55,399 Speaker 5: That would be amazing. There's something very powerful. I'm so 119 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,199 grateful to technology and that you can create like this, 120 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,079 but there is something about having your energy in the 121 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,240 same room that is very powerful. 122 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 3: Let me ask you this, for someone who is going 123 00:06:07,319 --> 00:06:11,480 through the same horrific trauma that you went through. What 124 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,279 are the things that the DNA Justice Project can do 125 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,319 to help victims both immediately like in the aftermath, and 126 00:06:18,399 --> 00:06:21,680 also down the road as they go through the justice system. 127 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 5: I'm kind of a connector of different organizations and areas. 128 00:06:26,519 --> 00:06:28,839 I love Rain. There are great research as far as 129 00:06:28,879 --> 00:06:31,959 when you look at actual safe houses or places to 130 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,399 go if you're a victim of sexual assault or domestic violence. 131 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,120 They have a national hotline. I love to refer people 132 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,560 to them. They also have a website, not so much 133 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,600 if you're in some of the rural counties, they don't 134 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,120 have as many on there for that, but they have 135 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,399 all across the country places that you can go. I'm 136 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:52,079 very passionate about every victim knowing through DNA Justice Project 137 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,240 because this is something that I think that we can 138 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,480 all say is not talked about very much. What do 139 00:06:56,519 --> 00:06:59,680 you do if you are assaulted? I hope that would 140 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,720 never have happened, but I didn't know what to do. 141 00:07:02,199 --> 00:07:05,120 I was blessed with an amazing first responding officer, and 142 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:06,920 I know that's not always the case, but I have 143 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,519 the most incredible one, and he guided me to the 144 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,639 next step. So I like to share with people that 145 00:07:12,759 --> 00:07:15,759 you get yourself, find a clinic in your area, in 146 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,319 your town that is trained in trauma informed sexual assault 147 00:07:19,399 --> 00:07:23,160 nurse examinations. They have sane programs. You don't have to 148 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,120 press charges if you go there. I think this is 149 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,759 really important to let people know that you can go 150 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:32,040 and have an entire sexual sult nurist examination by a trained, 151 00:07:32,439 --> 00:07:36,000 qualified provider. In the end, ultimately, if you decide you 152 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,120 don't want to press charges, that's fine, that you will 153 00:07:38,199 --> 00:07:41,120 get treatment. They'll assess your body, make sure that you 154 00:07:41,199 --> 00:07:44,360 get started on your path to healing. Those are areas 155 00:07:44,399 --> 00:07:48,279 I'm very passionate about, and through DNA Justice Project, my 156 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,000 focus is advocating for stronger DNA laws Right now. For example, 157 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,519 I'm a little tired because last week I was in 158 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,639 Nashville for DNA briefings all week and then I get 159 00:07:58,879 --> 00:08:01,639 finally on Friday night, Yes, I'm home. And then I 160 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,079 get a note from Georgia that the senators and my 161 00:08:04,079 --> 00:08:06,879 bills running Monday at four pm, And I wrote, wow, 162 00:08:07,639 --> 00:08:11,319 well either, So I was there. We testified last night, 163 00:08:11,319 --> 00:08:13,759 and then I flew back home and I testified virtually 164 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,319 today in West Virginia. So what I'm trying to do 165 00:08:16,399 --> 00:08:18,800 with this is you can do great work. They're amazing 166 00:08:18,879 --> 00:08:21,040 organizations that are doing works and like the rate Kit 167 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,439 and things like that. But what we need to do 168 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,279 is enhance our DNA database in a just way, because 169 00:08:27,319 --> 00:08:29,759 you can clear out backlogs, you can clear out cases. 170 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:31,680 If you don't have the DNA and the database, you're 171 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,200 not going to get the hits. So that's the primary 172 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:34,799 focus that. 173 00:08:34,759 --> 00:08:37,399 Speaker 2: I have right now, and you're mostly working at the 174 00:08:37,519 --> 00:08:40,879 state level, in other words, state by state, trying to 175 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:47,159 get states to change their laws to allow for more 176 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,879 facilitated search and getting more information into the various state 177 00:08:51,919 --> 00:08:53,080 and local databases. 178 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 6: Is that fair? 179 00:08:54,759 --> 00:08:57,519 Speaker 5: That's fair. Yes. So when you're arrested for a felony, 180 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,000 I want every felony. That's how my perpetrator was caught 181 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,720 because what he was in and out of crime his 182 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:07,480 whole life, for voyeurism, burglary, theft. They were never swabbing 183 00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:10,639 him for DNA. He finally got swabbed in California for 184 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,120 resisting the officer. But guess what, his sister came to 185 00:09:13,159 --> 00:09:15,480 trial and said that they're certain he's murdered people. He 186 00:09:15,519 --> 00:09:17,639 wasn't getting caught for that. He wasn't getting caught for 187 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,080 these violent sexual assaults, but he was getting caught for 188 00:09:20,399 --> 00:09:23,600 little like resisting the officer. So that triggered a process 189 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,200 in the criminal system in California. Because I had that 190 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,879 law to swab his cheek. They uploaded it for that 191 00:09:28,919 --> 00:09:32,320 offense and it hit all of these assaults that totally 192 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,440 across state lines. So we know criminals don't stay in 193 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:36,759 their place, right. 194 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,639 Speaker 2: This guy was traveling all over the country the world. 195 00:09:40,919 --> 00:09:42,759 Speaker 5: He was one of the Olympics, but yes, he was 196 00:09:42,799 --> 00:09:46,840 traveling all over the country, primarily targeting college age women. 197 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,919 So we take odd jobs painting. That's probably what happened 198 00:09:49,919 --> 00:09:52,840 at my apartment complex. So we need to get we 199 00:09:52,879 --> 00:09:55,320 need to get every state on board. And there's nineteen 200 00:09:56,399 --> 00:09:58,799 thirty one DY for certain violent felony arrests, which is 201 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,000 a great start, but this is a way that we 202 00:10:01,039 --> 00:10:03,600 can start to get hits. What's really exciting in Texas 203 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,480 is we passed this version of the law in twenty 204 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,519 twenty three. In Texas Department of Public Safety last week 205 00:10:09,519 --> 00:10:13,200 published our numbers. We solved one thousand and five cases 206 00:10:13,399 --> 00:10:15,720 just through this legislation alone this last year. 207 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, that is amazing. Talk about a fantastic result. 208 00:10:21,919 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 5: Incredible, it's incredible, and every state needs to be doing it. 209 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 3: And it isn't just recent cases. Are you clearing cases 210 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,480 that are our years and even decades old. 211 00:10:32,519 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 5: With this forty years fifty years old. Wow, And that's 212 00:10:36,159 --> 00:10:37,879 what I want to say with you all too. It's 213 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,679 my favorite thing about forensic DNA and the technology and 214 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,600 all these advancements. But we have to obviously get the 215 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,799 policy and the funding and people on board. But it's hope. 216 00:10:47,159 --> 00:10:49,559 We are closing cases that you would think would never 217 00:10:49,759 --> 00:10:51,840 be able to be closed. And I speak with victims 218 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,320 that are just waiting. There's actually two women in Massachusetts 219 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,480 that I had been talking to. They hadn't had any 220 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,559 justice and DNA just now connected the dots and they're 221 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,120 waiting for their perpetrator to be extraduided from California to Massachusetts. 222 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been following that case and actually we were 223 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,320 asked to cover that case, and of course I'm from 224 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,559 Massachusetts and had lived in California. We've actually been asked 225 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,080 to hold off for a little bit longer because the 226 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,679 hope is that this offender will be brought back to 227 00:11:22,759 --> 00:11:27,799 Massachusetts to face justice all these years later. What an 228 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:32,720 exciting case and we're looking forward to covering it. We 229 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,080 were asked to cover it, we said yes, but they said, 230 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,159 can you just wait a little bit longer until the 231 00:11:39,279 --> 00:11:42,559 process And of course as we know, legal process often 232 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,440 moves more slowly than we'd like it to. We're very 233 00:11:45,519 --> 00:11:49,720 optimistic and we're hoping that these two women that were 234 00:11:49,799 --> 00:11:53,120 assaulted all those years ago will finally be able to 235 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:54,679 face down their captor. 236 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 5: They're my heroes. I've become close with them and I'm 237 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,279 very inspire a lot like you, not giving up that hope. 238 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,320 It's so easy to it seems it's the easier path 239 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,440 because it can be so unfair and seems so unjust, 240 00:12:08,519 --> 00:12:10,879 and you're living in this pain. But then it's because 241 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,039 of their determination and grit with this that you know, 242 00:12:15,039 --> 00:12:17,879 they kept pushing. They kept pushing for you know, this 243 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,120 case to get closed, and it did. Hopefully they get 244 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:22,960 you know, the chance at trial and justice. 245 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 3: So I want to switch gears to the book for 246 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,440 a second. It's a wonderful book. You are very frying 247 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,240 about the emotional impact of your experience in your book. 248 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:39,200 It's difficult to read, but it's very worthwhile because it 249 00:12:39,279 --> 00:12:42,320 is so impactful. Let me ask you this, was this 250 00:12:42,399 --> 00:12:45,440 a difficult book for you to write or did you 251 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,720 find it cathartic or was it like a little bit 252 00:12:47,759 --> 00:12:48,120 of both. 253 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,639 Speaker 5: It was very difficult. I felt it in my soul 254 00:12:51,799 --> 00:12:55,480 for years, and then I started the process in twenty twenty. 255 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,240 I took a Gabby Bernstein master boss writing your book 256 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,279 online and I started diving into it. And then I 257 00:13:02,279 --> 00:13:05,440 had all the chapters fleshed out, and then I wasn't ready. 258 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,120 I wasn't ready, I thought, and then finally I knew 259 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,279 it was time to start the process. And it's been 260 00:13:10,399 --> 00:13:15,360 very it's been liberating because it's very messy too, Like 261 00:13:15,399 --> 00:13:18,200 I own all of the dark and the light and 262 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,240 the dark even within me, and it's very freeing just 263 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,320 to we're so used to the filter life of social 264 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,639 media now just to be like, hey, it's really freaking messy. 265 00:13:28,759 --> 00:13:30,960 If you really want to do the work and heal, 266 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:32,559 it's the hardest thing you're ever going to do in 267 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,080 your life, and it requires more strength than you could 268 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,919 ever imagine and more softness. It's this balance and messiness 269 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,039 and owning all of it and so being able to 270 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,960 have that out there was really scary, very scary. But 271 00:13:46,159 --> 00:13:48,759 now that it's out there, it's freeing and I'm finding 272 00:13:49,279 --> 00:13:51,159 what is it. You're not supposed to be for everybody, 273 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,639 but if you're authentic, you're going to find your people, 274 00:13:53,799 --> 00:13:56,559 and I feel like that's what's happening with this book organically. 275 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,039 A lot of it's just on my own grassroots movement 276 00:13:59,159 --> 00:14:01,440 pushing it out there, and I'm finding people that are 277 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,720 connecting with it in such a deep way, and that 278 00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:06,240 feels it feels amazing, It feels so good. 279 00:14:06,919 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 2: So this is something though that it took a while 280 00:14:09,799 --> 00:14:13,240 for you to get there. How many years ago do 281 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,000 you think it was when you first thought I should 282 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,960 write a book versus actually circling back to Okay, I 283 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,080 really am going to write a book. Now there's a 284 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,080 gap there. How many years would you say it'd gone 285 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,159 by when trial ended? 286 00:14:27,759 --> 00:14:29,799 Speaker 5: I remember this woman reached out to me from like 287 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,440 a New York Times or some writer I don't remember, 288 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,519 and we started down the path of this because she 289 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,240 was really interested. But I stopped it because it felt 290 00:14:37,279 --> 00:14:40,720 really dark at that point. The focus was more on 291 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,360 the true crime part, which is a part of it, right, 292 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,720 But I pulled the brakes because all of a sudden 293 00:14:45,799 --> 00:14:48,360 it felt like that's not the only message though. But 294 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,879 I wasn't ready because I've my journey of healing has 295 00:14:50,919 --> 00:14:53,879 been very hard, and it's been very recent too, so 296 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,600 I would get like these intuitive feels that Okay, I 297 00:14:57,639 --> 00:14:59,120 know I have a book in me, so I'll be 298 00:14:59,159 --> 00:15:01,039 like running on the trail, which is my favorite place, 299 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:02,879 and I'll stop and I'll write something on my phone. Oh, 300 00:15:02,919 --> 00:15:04,600 I don't want to forget this. And then I did 301 00:15:04,679 --> 00:15:06,720 yoga teacher training, and in that you have to write 302 00:15:06,759 --> 00:15:10,120 like journals of stuff. So I had content when then 303 00:15:10,159 --> 00:15:12,399 I was flushing out. But it took time, but their 304 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,759 word breaks, and it got to the point to where 305 00:15:14,799 --> 00:15:17,000 I thought, maybe my story will never be ready because 306 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,759 then there's this and this, and then you could cut 307 00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:20,480 it off at some point and just be fearless and 308 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:23,200 just say, okay, this is it. Yeah. It was a 309 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,000 long process, actually, but I'm grateful for waiting. I'm grateful 310 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,000 the timing ended up aligning for the message that I 311 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:29,919 wanted to put out there. 312 00:15:30,639 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 3: You talk a lot about the ways that you sought 313 00:15:33,759 --> 00:15:36,799 to heal yourself from this experience, and obviously healing looks 314 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,240 different for every person. Talk to us about the things 315 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,679 that worked for you and made your life start to 316 00:15:43,679 --> 00:15:46,120 feel whole again after undergoing this trauma. 317 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 5: I have tried every healing modality in the book. I'm 318 00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:53,159 telling you, what was your cutout was I. 319 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: Was like, yeah. 320 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,399 Speaker 5: And then one time I was in the East side 321 00:15:55,399 --> 00:15:58,120 of Austin and this psychics trailer and he's, yeah, I 322 00:15:58,159 --> 00:16:03,440 think that's a different book. Okay, okay, okay, good feedback, 323 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,000 but no, I've tried everything. But what really started to 324 00:16:08,039 --> 00:16:10,919 if you're a victim, and there's this lot for many 325 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,159 of us we suppress and hide. And I was shocked 326 00:16:13,159 --> 00:16:14,960 at how many people once I started coming out with 327 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,440 my story and turn shared stories with me that some 328 00:16:18,559 --> 00:16:21,440 had numbers told anybody. Sometimes I think that's what we 329 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,120 do to survive, right, Like I think there's a level 330 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,720 of our brain. There's only so much pain that we 331 00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:29,240 can process at once. So I think a detachment can 332 00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:34,240 sometimes be survival. But when that detachment perpetuates and then 333 00:16:34,279 --> 00:16:37,080 you let it grow and you hide this, but then 334 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,559 on the outside you're smiling, it's very dangerous, I think, 335 00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:44,159 because you're never feeling. And one of my greatest teachers, 336 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,840 he's a wounded warrior in Iraq. He actually lost both 337 00:16:46,879 --> 00:16:49,360 of his legs there and he teaches yoga now and 338 00:16:49,399 --> 00:16:51,720 he says he helped me learn to speak. And he 339 00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:55,000 told me one day, in order to heal, you have 340 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,759 to feel. You have to feel it. You have to 341 00:16:57,879 --> 00:17:01,159 feel it all, and that's so hard, it's really hard. 342 00:17:01,159 --> 00:17:02,960 But you also have to have the tools. And then 343 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,519 he would always say, and then when you feel and 344 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,920 you release part of it, then you have to ground 345 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:10,759 yourself and take a few breaths, feel your feet into 346 00:17:10,759 --> 00:17:13,119 the ground. Look at how far you've come. You're safe, 347 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,440 You're safe in your body. And there wasn't just one thing. 348 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,920 Yoga for me helped me get sober and clear. And 349 00:17:20,279 --> 00:17:24,160 I felt very, to be honest, like disgusted with my 350 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,960 body after this happened. I felt this, I felt foreign, 351 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,720 I felt disgusting. I felt like I was wearing a 352 00:17:30,759 --> 00:17:33,359 body of someone that wasn't mine, that was damaged and 353 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,880 broken and just icky. It just I never felt like 354 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,599 me after it for a very long time. And what 355 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,720 yoga did was what I didn't realize at the time, 356 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:43,839 was it wasn't just calmbing my anxiety with all the 357 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,920 breath were. It was making me connect to my physical 358 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,880 body and focus on different parts. And then I remember 359 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,240 I was in this boy you're two pose and your 360 00:17:52,279 --> 00:17:55,119 feet root down and my arms were extended out and 361 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,079 I'm sweating and I'm sober because I can't go in 362 00:17:58,079 --> 00:18:00,240 there on all sorts of alcohol and stuff to be 363 00:18:00,279 --> 00:18:02,160 sober for it, which at the time that's how I 364 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,279 was self medicating, and so it was a big deal. 365 00:18:04,759 --> 00:18:07,720 And I would just feel like a surge of power 366 00:18:07,839 --> 00:18:11,799 from my soul. It felt like that radiate out and 367 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,319 that's when it clicked and I started to think, Oh 368 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,799 my gosh, like maybe this guy did not take my power? 369 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,279 Is it there? Like it was such a cool feeling. 370 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,480 So there were little things. There's not one path of healing, 371 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,240 but I want everyone to know you can heal and 372 00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:28,559 for some people. For me, it's a combo. I love nature. 373 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,640 I got into walking them turned into running music as 374 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,960 such a great healer of the soul and being able 375 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,279 to connect with people and be vulnerable and real about 376 00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:40,400 what you've been. It's free. There's been many things that 377 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,000 I've had to do to heal, but they've all helped 378 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,920 me immensely. But it's a lifelong journey. 379 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 6: You're listening to Mind over Murder. 380 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:57,599 Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. 381 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 6: We're back here at Mind over Murder. 382 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,319 Speaker 2: I was thinking about this because at least from the 383 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:17,200 point if we use the sexual assault as a starting point. 384 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,960 You're only nineteen years old. Back then, there's no way 385 00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:24,480 you're going to be able to offer the insight and 386 00:19:24,519 --> 00:19:27,680 the wisdom and the growth that you went through from 387 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,319 back when you were a college student at age nineteen. 388 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:38,799 Now you bring so much more to the conversation. It 389 00:19:39,039 --> 00:19:44,319 almost feels like the time and experience and the positives 390 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,839 that have come into your life they needed to happen 391 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,000 before you could get to a place where you could 392 00:19:50,079 --> 00:19:52,599 write Silent Witness. 393 00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:56,319 Speaker 5: I wholeheartedly agree. Now I do. I'm very I'm very proud. 394 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,960 It's weird to say you're proud of yourself, but I'm like, man, 395 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,240 if you knew the depths of hell that I lived in, 396 00:20:02,559 --> 00:20:05,839 the haunted me, I didn't think I would make it 397 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,559 one day. I didn't think I would make it through 398 00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:10,000 the night. And then I was like going to community college, 399 00:20:10,039 --> 00:20:13,400 and I'm graduating college. Then I'm going through yoga, teacher chaining, 400 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,519 I'm getting a job. I'm like this, it seems small, 401 00:20:16,559 --> 00:20:19,279 but these were the most significant milestones that I didn't 402 00:20:19,319 --> 00:20:22,920 think I would ever have. So it's really cool to 403 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,759 have waited to then share these insights as I've grown 404 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,960 and evolved and just to give hope to others. There 405 00:20:30,039 --> 00:20:32,559 is a grief that I was nineteen, like you all know, 406 00:20:32,599 --> 00:20:35,680 going through tragedies so young and lost. It's heartbreaking, and 407 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,440 there was a while in my healing where I just 408 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,799 was stuck in grief for that. Like everything, I think, 409 00:20:42,799 --> 00:20:45,039 there's something about healing, and then there's something about like 410 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,319 finding the strength to not live in victimhood. It's a balance, 411 00:20:49,559 --> 00:20:53,640 for sure, but making the conscious decision. Healer told me once, 412 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,519 you have to choose to exit pain over and over again. 413 00:20:55,599 --> 00:20:57,240 Yes you have to feel it, but you also don't 414 00:20:57,279 --> 00:20:59,839 have to choose. Okay, enough now I need to exit 415 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:03,000 it and I need to move forward. So it's a dance, 416 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,720 not always a graceful one. 417 00:21:07,039 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 3: You had said a couple of minutes ago that you 418 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,839 want everyone to know that healing is possible. What are 419 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,960 some of the other things that you want every rape 420 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:17,920 survivor to know? 421 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 5: Just think you don't just have to survive. The pathway 422 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,680 to healing from this. It's long and it's hard, but 423 00:21:25,799 --> 00:21:27,960 you can. You can recover to not just live in 424 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,000 a life of survival. I thought for so long, I 425 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,799 hope this is okay to say, but I think it's important. 426 00:21:31,799 --> 00:21:34,640 Like sex to me was disgusting. My body was disgusting. 427 00:21:34,839 --> 00:21:37,079 I never thought I would have sacred intimacy, which I 428 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,359 realized a lot of that. It really damaged the self 429 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,640 love that I felt for myself. So I was attracting 430 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,559 unhealthy after my marriage, and he was amazing, but we 431 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,440 met at very young ages and then we just grew 432 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,319 apart because I wasn't processing. It was like two lives. 433 00:21:50,319 --> 00:21:51,880 When then I started to talk about it, and I 434 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,400 changed so much. And then after that I hit rock 435 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,319 bottom after I started talking about it. So it's like that, 436 00:21:57,799 --> 00:21:59,640 I say, healing is not like that straight you want 437 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,559 it to be. You're just like walking to the top. Yes, 438 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,039 it feels so good, but it's oh, I feel great, 439 00:22:05,039 --> 00:22:07,480 and then holy how I'm back at rock bottom, beyond 440 00:22:07,559 --> 00:22:11,079 if I could ever imagine. Yeah, so I've done that. 441 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,000 And after I started to share my story in twenty seventeen, 442 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,920 I hit horrible rock bottom, and then you can attract 443 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,640 unhealthy relationships. I was in some very because I didn't care. 444 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,519 I didn't care about myself, I didn't care about my 445 00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:26,799 body and all these different things. And then I started 446 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:29,119 to realize, like I did urbal medicine school. And this 447 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,720 sounds really weird, but like cooking with herbs and like 448 00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:36,480 to nourish, and like medicinally it got me. I used 449 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,759 to not care what I ate, Like I could eat everything, 450 00:22:38,759 --> 00:22:41,240 I could eat nothing, it didn't matter because again disconnection. Right, 451 00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:44,200 I wasn't trying to have any eating disorder, but I 452 00:22:44,279 --> 00:22:46,599 just was so disconnected. And then herbal medicine, you're like 453 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,319 making all these like concoctions and then you're cooking medicinally, 454 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,400 and it got me really tapped into caring about my body. 455 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,160 But then like sensuality and self love. And I just 456 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,240 want you to know that that the rape doesn't define you, 457 00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:01,519 and it doesn't. It does. It's something that we have 458 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,920 to battle, but you can heal and retap into that 459 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,759 sacredness like Goddess, divine goodness that we are inherently that's 460 00:23:09,799 --> 00:23:12,000 what we are. And I feel like that was I 461 00:23:12,079 --> 00:23:14,240 never knew what to do because no one talked about 462 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,279 it ever. You know, no one ever talked about that, 463 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,160 so I didn't know that healing was possible in that way. 464 00:23:19,319 --> 00:23:21,480 And you can be safe in your body, and I 465 00:23:21,519 --> 00:23:24,039 think those are all really important things for victims to 466 00:23:24,079 --> 00:23:25,079 hear survivors. 467 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:30,559 Speaker 2: Absolutely, So it's beyond a life goes on message. It's 468 00:23:30,759 --> 00:23:32,400 more much more profound than that. 469 00:23:33,279 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 5: Yes, it's deep. And one cool thing about the story 470 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,640 that I have with DNA Justice Project is I got 471 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,039 to bring my children to when we got it passed 472 00:23:42,079 --> 00:23:45,240 in Texas. And they're just really cool kids because they're 473 00:23:45,319 --> 00:23:48,319 very supportive of this and mom has to get on 474 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,160 planes and leave them, but they know that I'm going 475 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,160 to help with crime. And I got to take them 476 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,559 to the Senate Chamber and they got to see the 477 00:23:55,599 --> 00:23:57,400 bill be read and to see it be passed. And 478 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,599 then I just told them last week before I left 479 00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:03,079 for Nash Well for DNA work, that the Texas Department 480 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,240 of Public Safety put that out that we close one 481 00:24:05,279 --> 00:24:07,960 thousand and five cases in the state. And they just gasped, 482 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,920 and they were so excited being able to show like 483 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,559 you can go through really hard stuff and life can 484 00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:18,079 be very incredibly unfair, as you all know. I don't 485 00:24:18,079 --> 00:24:20,960 need to tell you that, but that you can't turn 486 00:24:21,079 --> 00:24:24,759 the pain into hope and change. And there's something very 487 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,000 like tragically beautiful about that. 488 00:24:27,319 --> 00:24:30,079 Speaker 2: Well, And did they go to the Texas State House 489 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,039 in Austin with you they did. 490 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 5: Yes, they don't. My son knows more now because it 491 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,519 was time. That's a whole that's a whole nother podcast. Okay, 492 00:24:37,519 --> 00:24:42,960 but they're young though, But they don't. They didn't know 493 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,799 what happened. They just knew that I was working to 494 00:24:45,799 --> 00:24:48,279 get DNA to help with crime and to get bad 495 00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:51,160 people off the streets and to good people be free 496 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,279 and to keep them safe. And so they got to go, 497 00:24:53,319 --> 00:24:55,039 and I have pictures of them to stand, but they 498 00:24:55,039 --> 00:24:56,680 were I was like, be on your good behavior and 499 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,480 then they're like running all around the top. I'm like, 500 00:24:58,519 --> 00:25:02,920 oh my gosh, but it's pretty cool. 501 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 2: But their takeaway was still, this is what part of 502 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,799 what mom does, and this is important and this helps people. 503 00:25:10,519 --> 00:25:13,319 And having been to the state House in Austin and 504 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,039 most other state houses around the country and my previous life, 505 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,960 what a spectacular place and what a spectacular outcome for 506 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,799 you to be working with the legislature and to move 507 00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:30,200 the law forward. And then to see over a thousand 508 00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:33,400 cases solved to date and there'll be more to come. 509 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 5: What's emotional and it it makes it so hard I 510 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,720 forget because you get on these highs and then legislative 511 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,559 session comes and then you get crushing blows and you 512 00:25:41,599 --> 00:25:43,920 get pushed back. You have to have really thick skin 513 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,640 and in three minutes or five you can. You have 514 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,039 to testify and pour your heart out and then give 515 00:25:49,079 --> 00:25:51,720 the facts and convince people on something that you know 516 00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:57,160 saves lives and will solve cases. So many victims will 517 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,920 continue to have justice withheld because we are no maximizing 518 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,519 these DNA collection laws. It's just facts. The system is proven, 519 00:26:04,599 --> 00:26:06,359 and we only have nineteen states doing it to the 520 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,759 full potential. Okay, so that is a huge gap. And 521 00:26:10,799 --> 00:26:13,839 then you get met sometimes with We barely got out 522 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,079 of Georgia. Senator Williams is incredible and he's fighting for 523 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:18,960 the good and he believes it in his soul, not 524 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,799 just for victims, but for those that are innocent. But 525 00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:23,279 we got out. It was a five to four vote 526 00:26:23,319 --> 00:26:25,319 and it was hard West Virginia. Today. I was met 527 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,480 with extreme opposition. This is my fourth year to try there, Okay, 528 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,599 and it's the same people that really apposed. It breaks 529 00:26:31,599 --> 00:26:33,400 your heart a little bit, but it makes when you 530 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,319 get it done that much sweeter. But we know the outcome, 531 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:38,720 we know it's good. 532 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,799 Speaker 3: What is their principal opposition to this because this really 533 00:26:42,799 --> 00:26:47,279 doesn't seem to me like anything other than a positive 534 00:26:47,319 --> 00:26:50,960 potential outcome. So I'm really curious if you've been fighting 535 00:26:51,039 --> 00:26:55,240 this for four years now in West Virginia for the 536 00:26:55,279 --> 00:26:59,960 people who don't want this, why, I just don't understand it. 537 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 5: So there's a few different things. Constitutionality, everyone's very worried 538 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,799 about that. But there was a case Maryland versus King 539 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,799 twenty thirteen. My perpetrator is arrested in twenty ten. We 540 00:27:09,799 --> 00:27:13,119 couldn't go to trial until twenty fifteen, harshly because we 541 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,039 were waiting on the Supreme Court ruling. So they found 542 00:27:16,039 --> 00:27:18,880 in this case, thankfully, that taking your DNA cheek swab 543 00:27:19,079 --> 00:27:23,880 for qualifying arrest is a reasonable part of the booking procedure, 544 00:27:24,279 --> 00:27:27,559 and they compared it to fingerprints. So therefore, under the 545 00:27:27,599 --> 00:27:29,720 Fourth Amendment, it's a go. Because of that, I was 546 00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:32,559 able to go to trial. I explain that to people, 547 00:27:32,559 --> 00:27:34,680 but they still get very freaked out. Then I explained 548 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,039 that our DNA database. I know that we've talked about athroam, 549 00:27:37,079 --> 00:27:40,880 but what goes into codis, which is the combined DNA 550 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,559 index system that is not the same thing as ancestry 551 00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:48,799 dot Com it's actually completely different. And I don't want 552 00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:50,519 to bore you, but you might know this, but just 553 00:27:50,559 --> 00:27:53,440 a high level, what go our DNA is made up 554 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,880 of three billion markers. What goes into our national DNA 555 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,880 database for this stuff only on ey to twenty four 556 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,440 markers of those three billion were picked by genetic scientists. 557 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,039 That it has no coding information. It doesn't say that 558 00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:10,640 I'm Lebanese, if I'm predisposed to any genetic diseases, doesn't 559 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,160 have a street name, it doesn't even have an actual name, 560 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,440 and they are just a specimen ID number. And so 561 00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:17,880 it's a very good system. The only thing you can 562 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,519 tell if you knew would be male or female, if 563 00:28:19,519 --> 00:28:22,079 you knew how to read them. They're just numbers. We've 564 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,799 never had a breach in our DNA database. Even if 565 00:28:24,839 --> 00:28:26,640 they did, they would just find numbers. You can't be 566 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,359 precluded from getting work or getting hired by having your 567 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,880 DNA in the database, because it's not that. What is 568 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,720 public is you're a mugshot, you're a rest record, right. 569 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,319 The DNA profile is not, and it's something entirely different. 570 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,480 But I it's such a battle to get people to 571 00:28:42,559 --> 00:28:45,839 understand that. And they also say innocent till proven guilty. 572 00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:48,839 And guess what, I believe that too. I am for justice. 573 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,680 I'm not just for victims. I'm not I want to 574 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,279 see the whole trial process. I want the justice process 575 00:28:54,319 --> 00:28:56,519 to be as good as it can be right, and 576 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,680 this helps with that. This is justice and it's a tool. 577 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,599 I still had to go to trial from the d 578 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,720 in evidence and they had everyone had to work together. 579 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,720 It is science and it is truth, and it's powerful 580 00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:11,839 that you It's like this constant battle, and I just 581 00:29:12,519 --> 00:29:15,400 I thought I was gonna walk in and just be like, Okay, 582 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,480 God gave me this story that I survived, and that's 583 00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:19,119 really hard for one time. But now I'm gonna go 584 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,680 change all the laws and it's gonna be over worth it. 585 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,640 And then you're just like, wait, So that's not the 586 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:24,519 response at all. 587 00:29:24,839 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: Roadblock after roadblock. Oh and I love the Okay, Ashley, 588 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:35,400 you have five minutes or three minutes to explain why 589 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,000 this is worthwhile and give some background on your own 590 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,240 personal experience. I don't know how you can cram that 591 00:29:42,359 --> 00:29:47,039 much knowledge and life experience into three to five minutes. 592 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 5: I talked very fast, but you know what I've learned 593 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,119 is to be kind and email people. Can you please 594 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,720 ask me a question for everyone to Can you ask 595 00:29:55,759 --> 00:29:58,640 me a follow up question on this maybe? But yesterday 596 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,480 it was you have between one to five minutes and 597 00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:02,039 they'll let you know when you get in there. I'm like, 598 00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:03,000 one to five. 599 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 2: One to five minutes. It's insane. 600 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 3: That sounds like the elevator pitch from Hell my God, 601 00:30:09,799 --> 00:30:10,119 it is. 602 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 5: I'm always sweating. I'm like, oh, listen, you know. 603 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 2: But the follow up questions from legislators have to be 604 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,960 very helpful if they give you an opportunity to fill 605 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,640 in some knowledge gaps and explain what it is that 606 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:27,680 we're talking about. 607 00:30:29,079 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 5: Absolutely, and there's so much information that's so good for it, 608 00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:34,359 and you have to get your compelling story and I 609 00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:38,160 take that sandwich of emotion facts emotion really quick. But 610 00:30:38,319 --> 00:30:41,240 the follow up questions help because I've poured my heart 611 00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:44,160 and soul and life into this now and I've studied 612 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:45,799 a lot of it, and as I like to hear 613 00:30:45,839 --> 00:30:48,359 people's descent because it makes me, I'm like, huh, let 614 00:30:48,359 --> 00:30:51,279 me look into that more. Or I think the conversations 615 00:30:51,359 --> 00:30:55,559 are great to have. I still think, after all of 616 00:30:55,599 --> 00:30:58,519 my studies of this, we have the stronger case here 617 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,599 that everyone should be doing this. Literally, every single state 618 00:31:01,599 --> 00:31:03,640 should be doing this. There's no reason why we shouldn't be. 619 00:31:04,119 --> 00:31:04,960 There's no reason. 620 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,119 Speaker 3: Agreed. Absolutely, I want to actually circle back again one 621 00:31:10,119 --> 00:31:12,599 more time to it's a variant on a question I 622 00:31:12,599 --> 00:31:15,160 asked you earlier, So a couple of minutes ago, i'd asked, 623 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,480 what are the things that you want every rape survivor 624 00:31:17,519 --> 00:31:19,839 to know? I want to ask a question that I 625 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,880 think is equally as important, which is, what are the 626 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,559 things that you want law enforcement officers and first responders 627 00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:30,880 to know about best practices when working with rape survivors, 628 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,000 Because there are so many of them that can get 629 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,319 it wrong. Tell them. For anybody who's listening, please tell 630 00:31:36,359 --> 00:31:37,400 them how to get it right. 631 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 5: Absolutely, I was blessed with angels. I know that's not 632 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,960 the case. But everyone that was working my case, from 633 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,839 the first responding officer to the forensic nurse, the detectives, 634 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,599 they were trained so well. But then there was one 635 00:31:51,599 --> 00:31:54,640 person I remember, and she was more cold and she 636 00:31:54,759 --> 00:31:57,519 was accusatory. I'm very glad that she wasn't the one 637 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,359 working my whole case, because I got so scared and 638 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,519 I thought, oh my gosh, if this can happen while 639 00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:04,599 I'm in my room and you're treating me like this. 640 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,680 How would somebody feel in a different scenario. But what 641 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,880 I can say is the first responding officer in my case, 642 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,519 he was the reason that I move forward. I want 643 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,880 everyone to know you have to be able to hold 644 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,440 space in a way. You might not have to be 645 00:32:19,519 --> 00:32:22,119 trauma totally trauma informed. I would love for everyone in 646 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,000 these scenarios to be. But there's also like an intuitive 647 00:32:25,079 --> 00:32:28,599 knowing of how to be gentle and delicate, make the 648 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,039 victim feel safe. If you're the first responding officer, guide 649 00:32:32,039 --> 00:32:34,160 them to the next step. But then you want them 650 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,359 to go to a hospital. It's equally important that our 651 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,079 nurses are trained in this, because if you go somewhere 652 00:32:39,079 --> 00:32:41,720 that they aren't, you're going to have a completely different experience. 653 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,039 And it's very harsh to come out of a scenario 654 00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:45,759 like that and have to go through all of these things. 655 00:32:45,799 --> 00:32:48,920 But it is so critically important that you're treating the 656 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,440 victim with care, dignity, and respect. 657 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:58,519 Speaker 2: A lighter question, was this a conscious decision for silent witness? 658 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,440 I noticed the color and the graphics and everything. It's 659 00:33:02,759 --> 00:33:10,200 very girly. I would say, it's pink with magenta and beautiful, 660 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,839 almost looks like handwritten text. Was this all a conscious 661 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,400 decision on your part? This almost looks almost like a 662 00:33:18,519 --> 00:33:22,200 romance novel or a Valentine and in that way it's 663 00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:26,440 very attractive. Was that a conscious decision on your part? 664 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 5: Okay, this is a great conversation. I met my publisher 665 00:33:29,799 --> 00:33:32,720 actually at the National Conference of State Legislators, which is 666 00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:37,480 a wild story. Anyways, our values, they've been phenomenal, and 667 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:39,480 so they actually put together four different things. But I 668 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,880 did say there was one thing that I thought for 669 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,759 a while that maybe the title be called Here Comes 670 00:33:43,759 --> 00:33:45,319 the Sun because a Beatles song. But then it was 671 00:33:45,359 --> 00:33:48,279 like too happy. Okay, so right, that's that one. But 672 00:33:48,319 --> 00:33:52,279 then there were other options, but they looked very dark. 673 00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:53,680 And the one thing I did say to him, I go, 674 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,160 this looks feminine. I am sending these to legislators so 675 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,000 that they hopefully passed this. And he said, let's be real, 676 00:33:59,079 --> 00:34:01,759 like the majority of your readers are going to be women. 677 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,079 And I actually thought about it. I was a little hurt, 678 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,000 and then I thought about it. I'm like, he's not wrong. 679 00:34:07,319 --> 00:34:10,840 And if with the cover you can you can see it. 680 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,559 You can picture it in a bookstore and it stands 681 00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:15,960 out right. Yes, and it's beautiful in a weird way. 682 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,400 But the other ones were kind of dark and cry, 683 00:34:18,599 --> 00:34:20,119 which is part of the book. But that's like, not 684 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:22,719 the whole book actually, right, it's. 685 00:34:22,519 --> 00:34:28,199 Speaker 2: More so there's that sunny, optimistic there's hope in this 686 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:33,039 book that is conveyed more than a bit by the approach, 687 00:34:33,079 --> 00:34:35,519 because when you get into it, there's some very dark 688 00:34:35,599 --> 00:34:39,679 moments because they're part of your story. But I was 689 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,400 very struck by this, and I thought that I thought 690 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,800 you and your publisher made a very smart decision to 691 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,360 present this in a way that's loving or even romantic. 692 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:54,400 And I thought this almost looks like a Valentine you. 693 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,679 Speaker 5: Talking about it. Okay, so that's good. But yeah, and 694 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,719 it's not just sunny, it's not. It's fully optimist, pained. 695 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 2: Yes, oh, once you get into the book itself, of course, yeah. 696 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,920 But I was surprised by that. When you were kind 697 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,800 enough to send us the books, I. 698 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,760 Speaker 5: Debated that a lot with them, but then at the 699 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,639 end that was the one that just it stuck with 700 00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:17,039 me and I just thought, I don't know, it's beautiful 701 00:35:17,039 --> 00:35:19,880 to me, and he is he was right? Primarily the 702 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,360 people are reading this book are women. 703 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 3: What else do you feel like you need to say 704 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,679 about your story, your healing, the process that you're still 705 00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:33,039 going through. Have you said it all in the book 706 00:35:33,159 --> 00:35:36,119 or can you see there being a second volume to this? 707 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,800 Are you continuing to have that conversation or is this 708 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,199 You've done it, You've closed the book and we're good. 709 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,199 Speaker 5: I want to focus the next part on the healing, 710 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,679 actual healing and getting into the goods of that, because 711 00:35:48,039 --> 00:35:50,639 I wasn't able to in this book, and there's been 712 00:35:50,679 --> 00:35:53,239 I've had so many learning I opened a yoga studio 713 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,280 and I had so much growth there, and it wasn't 714 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,239 just that. There's just so many healing modalities and just 715 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,760 cool synchronicities. Whatever you believe and if you believe in 716 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,000 anything higher power. I've had a lot of that in 717 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,039 my life, and I lost my faith for a very 718 00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:08,760 long time after this, and then I was able to 719 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,440 reconnect to it. So I would love to dive more. 720 00:36:12,159 --> 00:36:14,159 The second thing will be more focused on that, and 721 00:36:14,199 --> 00:36:15,440 that one really excites me. 722 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 2: I thought the next book was going to be what 723 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,360 the heck is wrong with you? And have it be 724 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,400 addressed to your legislators that don't get why you think 725 00:36:26,519 --> 00:36:29,639 this is important to get innocent people out of jail 726 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,599 and put guilty people in jail. 727 00:36:32,199 --> 00:36:34,599 Speaker 5: I've taken the sweet approach with them all, and that 728 00:36:34,679 --> 00:36:36,639 the little Southern charm. And maybe I'm wondering if I 729 00:36:36,679 --> 00:36:38,800 need to take a harsher one, but then I harsher 730 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:40,960 onuns and they're not getting a better outcome. It's a 731 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,119 fine line, but I think a little bit of calling 732 00:36:44,159 --> 00:36:46,039 out is not a bad thing. 733 00:36:47,119 --> 00:36:49,119 Speaker 3: Ashley. Where can everybody find your book? 734 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 5: You can get it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, my website, 735 00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:00,800 Ashleyspence dot com, my foundation website, DNA Justice Project dot org. 736 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 3: This has been such an honor and a privilege to 737 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,360 talk to you about this because the book is amazing, 738 00:37:07,639 --> 00:37:11,360 the work that you're doing is amazing, and the just 739 00:37:11,519 --> 00:37:15,760 amount of grace and courage that you have shown going 740 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,400 through this whole entire process is amazing as well. So 741 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,719 thank you for being willing to share that with us 742 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,920 and with our listeners. We really appreciate it and we're 743 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:23,559 better for it. 744 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 5: I'm the one that's honored that you are opening up 745 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,199 space for me again a second time. It's truly my 746 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,440 great honor, and I just admire you both so much 747 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,559 and the work that you do, and I'm constantly working 748 00:37:36,599 --> 00:37:39,559 for that justice as well. I want every victim to 749 00:37:39,559 --> 00:37:42,320 have justice that I felt, and it doesn't take away 750 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:43,960 the pain, but it gives you this closure that we 751 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,639 all deserve in our own ways, we victims. 752 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 2: I hope it's evident that we're big fans of you 753 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,320 and your work, and if there's anything that we can 754 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,079 do to help the DNA Justice Project move forward, we'll 755 00:37:56,079 --> 00:37:59,599 be including of course links to the DNA Justice Project 756 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,199 in our show notes to your book, and also you 757 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,920 mentioned the Rain Network, which we're familiar with, will include 758 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,639 their information and their eight hundred number, which is eight 759 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:15,039 hundred sixty five six hope or sixty five six four 760 00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:18,719 six seventy three. The work that you're doing, I think 761 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,039 is incredibly important and we're very inspired by it. 762 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,519 Speaker 5: I feel the same about you. Thank you so much. 763 00:38:24,599 --> 00:38:25,480 I'm so grateful. 764 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Ashley. That is going to do 765 00:38:29,079 --> 00:38:32,199 it for this episode of Mind Over Murder. Thank you 766 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,079 so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 767 00:38:45,519 --> 00:38:49,079 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 768 00:38:49,119 --> 00:38:50,559 another Dog productions. 769 00:38:51,119 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 2: Our Executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 770 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 771 00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 6: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 772 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 773 00:39:05,159 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 774 00:39:08,519 --> 00:39:11,119 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 775 00:39:11,199 --> 00:39:13,000 Murders on Facebook. 776 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 777 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,440 Bill Thomas five six. 778 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,039 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.