WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:03.000 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with 2 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:07.879 no ads? Easy? Become a patron for just five dollars 3 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:10.800 a month. You get access to a private RSS feed 4 00:00:10.839 --> 00:00:14.240 where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, 5 00:00:14.279 --> 00:00:16.879 we'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks 6 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:21.000 patron mug. Sign up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks 7 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:37.320 dot com. Hey, welcome to dot net Rocks Live from Build. Well, 8 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:38.880 it's not live to you, but it's live for us. 9 00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:41.560 It turns out every time we record it's live. 10 00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:44.039 We used to say that at the beginning. 11 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:49.560 From dot net rocks, what's the what's the alternative dead Dead? 12 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:57.399 From dot com? It's Do Not Resuscitate otherwise known as DNR. Okay, well, 13 00:00:57.560 --> 00:01:00.200 it's dot ne rocks where build. We just got out 14 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:04.000 of the keynote and Scott Hunter shows up and we're 15 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:05.159 going to have a conversation. 16 00:01:05.319 --> 00:01:06.200 Yeah, I bet we will. 17 00:01:06.359 --> 00:01:09.400 And before we talk to Scott, we have to do 18 00:01:09.519 --> 00:01:13.680 a little thing about what happened in nineteen fifty three. Yeah, 19 00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:18.120 because this is show nineteen fifty three. Scott, you're welcome 20 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:21.200 to join us, dive in on this, Yeah, if you want, sure, So, 21 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:26.319 Mount Everest Sir Edmund Hillary have Tensing Norgay, who is 22 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:29.760 his sherpa. Right, Ye became the first people to reach 23 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:33.319 the summit of Mount Everest on May twenty ninth. You 24 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:35.040 kind of went up Mount Everest. 25 00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:37.719 I went to base camp, went to the bottom of Everest, Yeah, 26 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:42.359 which is the same altitude as the top of Kills. 27 00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:47.480 Also and Fuji, I have done Mount Gratton, which is inton. 28 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:51.680 It's basically a recycling pile that I walked to the 29 00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:53.799 top of and is twenty feet all right. 30 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:56.920 Okay, but that's the thing that kills you after doing Kelly. 31 00:01:56.920 --> 00:01:58.959 Then you go to beverstpace camps, like I am at 32 00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:01.159 the bottom of this mountain and I feel like I 33 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:03.400 felt getting to the top of a chilly yeah Fortal. 34 00:02:03.640 --> 00:02:05.640 It's crazy that you, you know, you people go to 35 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:07.319 a base camp at Everest and stay there for a 36 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:08.919 couple of weeks to acclimate before they go all the 37 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:10.439 way up. So it's like, you know, for Killy, we 38 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:12.960 didn't really do much a lot of acclamation a little bit, 39 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:14.719 a little bit, yeah, but you told me. 40 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:18.199 I think that the grade for Fuji and for Killy 41 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:22.439 is a little more easy to traverse, whereas Everest is 42 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:23.599 kind of a steeper grade. 43 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:26.800 Yeah, I don't know. It was very gradual getting to 44 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:30.479 the base camp. I didn't go past that. But there's 45 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:32.560 a bunch of different routes on Killimanjero and I think 46 00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:34.520 you did. You did the sixth day route too, didn't you. 47 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:37.120 I did, and that has more acclamation time, which is 48 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:39.400 actually important. They say, if you do the sixth day route, 49 00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:41.919 it's like a ninety percent summit, but if you do 50 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.719 the four day route, it's like a fifty percent Summit's 51 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:45.879 you just pushing your body too hard? 52 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:49.039 All right? Well? The Korean War officially ended in nineteen 53 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:51.960 fifty three an Armis disagreement signed on July twenty seventh. 54 00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:56.479 DNA was discovered by James Watson and Francis Crick, building 55 00:02:56.479 --> 00:02:59.599 on Rosalind Franklin's work. I don't think there's a relation. 56 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:05.960 According to King's College, London, Joseph Stalin died on March fifth. 57 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:08.159 Dwight D. Eisenhower was sworn in as President of the 58 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:10.919 United States on January twentyeth Queen Elizabeth iiO Is crowned 59 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:15.199 on June second. Jesus A good year, yeah, and some 60 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:17.560 tech advancements, Richard, I'm sure we'll have more. But the 61 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:21.919 US detonated the first thermo nuclear device code named Mike. Yeah, 62 00:03:22.039 --> 00:03:25.360 in the Central Pacific Ocean. I know Mike, who was 63 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:26.879 like a thermonuclear device. 64 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:30.039 Yeah. The big one is IBM's six fifty, which was 65 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:32.879 the sort of first mass produced computer. So we're finally 66 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:36.039 you know, up until then, every computer was bespoke. Yeah, right, 67 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:38.199 they were calm built. You know. I told that story 68 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:42.280 about when they built that the first that first machine, 69 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:44.919 and the Census bought it, but then they wouldn't give 70 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:46.479 it to them because they didn't were afraid to take 71 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:50.400 it apart. Right, So yeah, the six fifty was the 72 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:53.319 first sort of reliable, rebuildable computer that they've asked. 73 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:55.439 All right, well that's just a few things that happened. 74 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:57.000 But geez, what a year. 75 00:03:57.120 --> 00:03:59.599 Yeah, ninety fifty three important year knowing about. 76 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:01.479 It all right? Well, as I said, Scott Hunter is 77 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:04.039 here and we have to do a thing first called 78 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:14.800 better no Framework roll the crazy music. Awesome what he 79 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:17.879 got Our friend Simon Krawn, of course, he is a 80 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:22.560 font of good stuff. He finds things. He's part of 81 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:24.879 the app and X team. Also he's helped me out 82 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:28.879 with some of my GitHub projects and just a great guy. 83 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:34.079 So he's created z link z l huge his project. 84 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:37.920 Oh no, it's not his project. He found it and yeah, 85 00:04:37.959 --> 00:04:40.720 so he found it and shared it with me. It's 86 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:44.560 a zero allocation link library for dot net. What does 87 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:48.839 that mean, Well, allocation, zero allocations means you don't create 88 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:52.319 anything on the heap, right, you don't create anything that 89 00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:54.839 needs to be garbage collected. So that's a good thing. 90 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:58.079 And I was talking to my buddy Scott before you 91 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:01.839 got here, Richard, about zero allocation. And it turns out 92 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:05.000 a lot of the optimizations in dot net have been 93 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:06.920 because of zero allocation. 94 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:09.560 That's been very much a move, right. I mentioned a 95 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.319 lot of the work they did in that exotic version 96 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:16.240 of Polly, which about minimizing allocation. 97 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.519 Right, and so then we got talking about ring buffers, 98 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:18.959 which is. 99 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:21.199 I was going to say, yeah, Kestrel and dot Net. 100 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:24.079 We were actually sitting in a room and building forty 101 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:25.959 four one day and we're trying to figure out, obviously, 102 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:29.120 how do we make the web server, you know, allocate less, Yeah, 103 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:32.199 because that's the you know, the negative of garbage collection 104 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:33.639 is if you allocate a lot of memory, well, the 105 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:35.279 garbage collector has to go work in the background to 106 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:37.000 go get rid of that memory, and that's going to 107 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:38.959 burn CPU and that's going to slow things down. And 108 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:41.480 so we were trying to find you know, a lot 109 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:44.160 of the early optimizations in dot net the dotin corbets 110 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:46.959 were how do we reduce the allocations that we're making 111 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:49.600 in the first place. And so one idea was, hey, 112 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:53.199 the webserver is always turning through requests. Let's just put 113 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:55.680 a ring buffer inside of there, and then we're not 114 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:57.240 allocating at all, we're just reusing memory. 115 00:05:57.720 --> 00:05:58.680 What's a ring buffer? 116 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:01.480 Actually, I just think it's think think of it like this, 117 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:04.800 a big circle of memory. And what you do is 118 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:07.160 instead of allocating memory, you just keep reusing some part 119 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:10.160 of that that buffer again and again and again, going around. 120 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:11.920 You know, as as things are done, they fall off 121 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:15.879 the end. And but a big chunk of kestrel is 122 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.759 basically first buffering a big ring q if you think 123 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:22.879 about it like that way. And when we first did it, 124 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:25.959 we were using you know, uh unsafe sea sharp to 125 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:28.240 do that because it's just memory and pointers and stuff 126 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:30.199 like that. And we actually added features to c sharp 127 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:31.680 later they got. 128 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:34.560 Remember remember memory created a whole framework to make it 129 00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:36.439 safe so we didn't have to do that sort of thing. Yes, 130 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:38.279 and then he did it inside of it anyway. Anyways, 131 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:38.879 that's clever. 132 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:40.959 But but then we put the sea sharp features in 133 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:42.480 so we could go get rid of all that stupid 134 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:45.079 stuff that we were doing. Anyways, So as. 135 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:47.439 It turns out, you know, uh remember I don't know 136 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:49.040 if you remember this or if you were with dot 137 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:52.879 net Rocks back then, but Chris Sells Richard uh talked 138 00:06:52.920 --> 00:06:55.439 about how he wanted to bring reference counting back into 139 00:06:55.600 --> 00:07:00.720 dot net. It was the early days, and uh, you know, yeah, 140 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:03.920 he was used to reference counting in Calm, and you know, 141 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:07.240 he had control over what happened and what got deallocated 142 00:07:07.319 --> 00:07:09.240 and when I think it was when he did that 143 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:13.079 whole thing gets ten Yeah, disposed and I disposable and 144 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:17.360 all that. Yeah, but his sense man in that crusade, 145 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:19.040 of course, we went into lake. 146 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:20.959 I was say, reference counting. Oh my gosh, I mean 147 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:23.240 technically the garbage collector is doing that. You just don't 148 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:24.879 have to see it. So it's like it is reference 149 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:27.360 counting behind the scenes. You just don't else how would 150 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:29.079 it work. Yeah, some are it has to go. Nobody's 151 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:30.920 using this anymore. Yeah, I can now get rid of it. 152 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:32.639 And there was a there was a bake off in 153 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:35.199 the early version of dot net between a reference counted 154 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:41.360 implementation and the garbage collecting implementation. Patrick Dessaud did the 155 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:46.240 the the garbage collected version and kicked But yeah, it 156 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:49.399 was Admittedly the guy had an advantage because he'd done 157 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.199 the Microsoft imilmentation of the JAVM, like he knew that 158 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:54.920 cold and got to do it all from scratch. Like, 159 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:58.160 I don't think we can underestimate the number of benefits 160 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:01.879 that dot net had from having folks from deeply familiar 161 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:04.959 with JABA to say, hey, we're going to do generics right, 162 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.120 we're going to do the type system right, and we're 163 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:08.240 going to do garbage collection right. 164 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:10.199 Yeah, people forget that. You know, visual j plus plus 165 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:12.439 was a thing, was it that Patrick worked on, Andrews 166 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:16.759 Halsberg worked on, and so literally, you know what we 167 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:19.160 call net today is kind of a fork of that 168 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:22.000 thing with the different language, but it's got the same 169 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:23.920 garbage collector and all that stuff. And that's where that 170 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:26.199 I'm sure that's where Patrick brought the garbage collector from. 171 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:28.000 It, even if he started from scratch it. You know, 172 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:30.040 it doesn't matter. He had it in his head, he 173 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:33.159 thought about it, and implemented more than arguably anybody else 174 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:34.720 in the world at that time. 175 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:37.440 I remember when Microsoft killed Visual j plus plus, and 176 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:39.600 I can't remember who it was, and I probably wouldn't 177 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:42.000 want to say their name anyway, but I said, hey, 178 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:43.960 why don't you guys killed j plus plus? He said, 179 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:45.240 we kept getting sued. 180 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:50.200 We sort of deserve to get sued in this particular case. 181 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:53.720 So you know, we we The reason we got sued 182 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:57.399 was because we had built a JVM, and we added 183 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:00.840 features to our JVM that were not standard Java features. 184 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:03.759 The problem is because because we have an operating system 185 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:08.360 that's installed on a billion machines, our JVM with its 186 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:12.399 non compliant features, is suddenly on everybody's Every Windows device 187 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:17.720 in fact, is there. And so in those features, those features, 188 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:20.000 commonly enough are are super important. 189 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:20.360 C sharp features. 190 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:24.399 There's delegates were one of those features. And UH the 191 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:28.120 father of of p and voke which probably I think 192 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:30.480 it was called jada rec back then. UH, And and 193 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:33.039 so those features. Anders put those features in as he 194 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:39.799 was building. UH, basically the father of of UH wind forms. 195 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:42.519 The way I've heard it described is with it. So 196 00:09:42.679 --> 00:09:44.879 I think Silverburg is quoted as saying this, it's like 197 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:49.679 the day that Sun and Microsoft signed that agreement, both 198 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:52.639 companies were in violation of it, and it just continued 199 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:56.120 from there. He that he, you know, through pure force 200 00:09:56.159 --> 00:10:00.399 of will, and whatever I've seen of Silverberg lots force 201 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:02.960 of will. He got both parties to the table to 202 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:05.000 sign that thing. But he doesn't mean he was going 203 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:08.159 to change their personalities. There's only so much you could do, 204 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:10.360 and so at some point they just had to call 205 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:12.080 the ball on this. It's like, look, this is not 206 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:14.759 what the intent was. You got to stop. 207 00:10:14.840 --> 00:10:16.799 Well, it sounds like we're starting the show, but we're 208 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:20.519 really still in the preheader, so I think it's your turn. 209 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:21.679 You need to tell us. 210 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:23.759 Read a comment. Yeah, I got to comment off the 211 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:27.360 show nineteen thirty eight when we did with Frank Suadengue 212 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:31.639 and Sasha talking about the new version of Uno. Yeah, 213 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:34.320 because it's a great comment, which which is from Fabian 214 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:38.159 Hugil who said, I really liked that Carl relativized good word. 215 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:40.919 I like that hot design and hot reload at some 216 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:44.000 point I have had that. I have had very similar 217 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:48.200 experiences a visual designer just cannot match what a scene 218 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:51.600 graph based UI can do, you know, like HTML, like 219 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:54.279 you know said it. So for every non trivial UI 220 00:10:54.360 --> 00:10:57.080 you will eventually write some zammal code and as to 221 00:10:57.159 --> 00:11:00.240 hot reload, yeah, it's fancy, but even for non UI 222 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.440 dot net assemblies, it often fails for even not too 223 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:05.399 large changes. I mean this is a challenge long reload. 224 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:07.399 You can only do a little fudge before it's like, dude, 225 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:09.159 you need to compile, Like sorry. 226 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:12.120 Yeah, you need to stop and run again. But fabe 227 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:13.840 my experience. Yeah sure, yeah. 228 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:15.919 Fabian goes to say, you know, I never really use 229 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:18.679 it and I don't miss it, which is interesting. I mean, 230 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:20.639 we put a lot of hype around hot reload, but 231 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:23.240 it's like, if you've got a workflow that works for you, 232 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:24.879 you don't have to go further than you know where hot. 233 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:27.960 Reload works best if you're changing CSS. 234 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.679 Yeah, tweaking, tweaking all that little fence posty stuff. 235 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:31.840 Change one line of code. 236 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:34.600 Oh no, it's time to read about yeah. 237 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:37.519 Usually, Yeah, we just haven't done enough work to make 238 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:39.360 we can make hot reload better. It's just not good 239 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:42.159 enough yet. So it's we had a huge effort, uh 240 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:43.759 that we went. We first put it in the in 241 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:46.480 the product, and then we kind of got busy with 242 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:48.960 other stuff and it hasn't had enough love recently. 243 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:50.480 It's got to go back into the looping. It needs 244 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:53.080 to go back in the loop. Bitt ten maybe so Fabian, 245 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:54.759 thank you so much. You're commented. A copy of music 246 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:55.879 co By is on its way to you. And if 247 00:11:55.879 --> 00:11:57.360 you'd like a copy of music, go buy. I write 248 00:11:57.360 --> 00:11:59.159 a comment on the website at dot net rocks dot 249 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:01.240 com or on the books. We publish every show there 250 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:02.759 and if you comment there and I read all the show, 251 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:04.200 we'll sign your copy of Music to Koba. 252 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:07.279 And as Richard mentioned, music to Koba is still going strong. 253 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:09.799 Music to code by dot Net We're up to twenty 254 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:12.279 two tracks and you can get the entire collection in 255 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:16.440 MP three, flak or wave format. And oh my god, 256 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:17.200 it's Scott Hunter. 257 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:18.240 Surely me. 258 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:21.080 I'm going to introduce him for real. He is still 259 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:23.759 the vice president of product for Azure Development Experience and 260 00:12:23.799 --> 00:12:28.240 builds all the tools dot net tools for Azure. Yeah, 261 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:31.080 that's absolutely I love that. I would love to be 262 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:34.559 able to get to that kind of bio someday, you know. 263 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:36.720 Just does all the things I do the things with 264 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:37.519 the stuff, all the. 265 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:38.200 Things with the stuff. 266 00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:39.720 You just if you work at the same company for 267 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:41.159 like eighteen years, this is what happens. 268 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:44.080 Yeah, the the title gets shorter. 269 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:48.240 Yeah, and you touch all the different parts of you know, 270 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:50.159 the Microsoft ecosystem over that time. 271 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:52.440 But getting back to what we were talking about zero allocations, 272 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:56.919 it's not just Kestrel, but every genera, every version of 273 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:01.120 dot necor dot nine and now ten before that seems 274 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:06.440 just to be getting faster, less memory consumption and more scalable. 275 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:06.879 Yeah. 276 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:09.919 I was one of the cool features that you know, 277 00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:13.399 we talked about the garbage collector Collector earlier and uh, 278 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:16.200 one of the coolest garbage culcture features that we've done recently, 279 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:17.720 and I think it just went under the radar. Nobody 280 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:21.200 even thinks about this is we had some I remember 281 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:23.120 we had a couple of customers and they were comparing 282 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:27.240 dot net to go and Rust and I think we 283 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:29.399 were winning on the performance side of it. We were 284 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:31.480 you know, uh and those things, but they were complaining 285 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:35.639 about the memory we used, right, and uh, we if 286 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:37.279 one of these benchmarks we had and we looked and 287 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:40.360 we saw that we were using roughly twice the memory 288 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:42.480 that Go and Rust were using, and at the time 289 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:44.840 we we didn't have We didn't really go think a 290 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:47.600 lot about it. We were busy with other stuff. But uh, it. 291 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:49.759 Was was that a real test? I mean, was it 292 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:51.639 a test of just loading it up and seeing what 293 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:55.759 the memory usage is or over time after after three 294 00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:57.480 hours of use? You know? 295 00:13:57.639 --> 00:13:59.440 So I don't remember the exact details. 296 00:13:59.440 --> 00:13:59.639 It was. 297 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:01.519 It was the customer that brought their own benchmarks in 298 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:04.039 and they'd run their own benchmarks, and then we said, hey, 299 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:05.200 can we see your benchmarks? 300 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:07.799 And you bring up a great point though, carcas One 301 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:09.080 of the things when I did a lot of load 302 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:12.080 testing back in the day with dot net websites especially, 303 00:14:12.519 --> 00:14:16.799 you needed several hours for the garbage collector to mature, right, 304 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:19.039 You have to have pushed enough pages through and so forth, 305 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:21.519 and filled memory up and had done a couple of 306 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:26.240 second gen garbage collects before you even really knew what 307 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:28.960 a site's going to look like. You could fool yourself 308 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:31.679 on a fresh start with empty memory and run a 309 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:33.759 quick benchmark and go, all this stuff looks great. 310 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:36.679 Yeah, like dot Net could have been pre allocating memory 311 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:39.399 that it might have needed later and Go or Rust 312 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:41.399 might have not and so you have to look at 313 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:41.879 it after you. 314 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:44.080 That's that's that's actual we found was we have a 315 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:48.360 week what I you know, Mami might kill me. Whatever 316 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:50.559 termatics made up, but it's I call it a greedy, 317 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:51.519 greedy garbage collector. 318 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:51.759 Right. 319 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:53.399 Hey, you know when when you when you boot the 320 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:55.200 app up, the garbage colector goes how much memory does 321 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:56.519 the machine have? I'm gonna go grab. 322 00:14:56.279 --> 00:14:56.720 All that stuff? 323 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:00.519 Yeah, yeah, And that was the exact thing that the 324 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:03.639 benchmarks these companies brought to us were showing was basically, 325 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:05.440 we weren't using all that memory. 326 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:06.919 No, we were just getting ready just in case you 327 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:07.440 needed We were. 328 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:09.200 Getting ready in case you needed it. And then in 329 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:12.279 dotten at eight, that's where we put this behind the 330 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:14.799 feature flag, a new mode where the garbage clutter is 331 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:16.960 not greedy, right, And so basically we're going to start 332 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:19.559 with a little bit of memory and we'll allocate more 333 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:21.360 memory as as necessary. 334 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:25.320 And and you're referring to Maoni Stevens, I think the 335 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:27.480 new Patrick, who was the new Patrick decide I've had 336 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:30.519 conversations with that woman. That's one of the most remarkable 337 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:34.480 minds I've and a company full of remarkable minds. Holy 338 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:36.919 man just thinks on a different level. 339 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:39.399 She knows more about garbage collectors than you and I 340 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:40.720 would ever know in our entire life. 341 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:45.240 Richards and prest I am staggered. 342 00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:48.440 Staggered, that's so much to be scared. 343 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:51.600 It's just ex shredded. But again, what a specialist. 344 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:54.399 And you know Patrick still came in after he retired 345 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:56.759 and still still comes in and talks to Myoni and 346 00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:58.799 stuff like that. And and uh, because I'm sure he 347 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:00.919 still has ideas too, and I'm sure they bouncedid these. 348 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:03.720 I would love to see one of those conversations because 349 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:05.120 I wouldn't understand. 350 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:07.120 Any of it. You just sort of stare in awe, but. 351 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:11.480 Uh, you know, it's amazing. But she she built a 352 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:13.000 new feature which is the one where we don't have 353 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:15.840 the greedy allocation, and we put it in eight, but 354 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:18.480 it was off behind a feature flag because before we 355 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:20.639 actually put it put it on on for default, we 356 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:23.519 wanted to actually run a bunch of the services we 357 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:26.679 run inside of Microsoft a while. So let's let's go 358 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:29.360 run a whole bunch of the M three sixty five 359 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:32.759 back end on this on this technology, uh, in this 360 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:35.279 new mode and we'll get all the bugs figured out 361 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:35.960 inside of Microsoft. 362 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:38.720 I wouldn't have messed with metrics just because it's calucating 363 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:41.200 memory different and then showing how it's memory with nine 364 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:43.279 it's on by default. Okay, so turned out to be 365 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:44.120 non event. 366 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:46.200 I'm sure we fix bugs. Yeah. 367 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:49.799 But you know what, though, I would almost want the 368 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:52.759 pre allocation because it's going to be faster to allocate 369 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:55.039 memory when it needs it to just use it. 370 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:58.399 The uh I think the scenario that you want the 371 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:02.360 non greedy ones. Are you running on like an IoT device? Yeah, okay, 372 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:04.720 if you're running on something constrained. So in this case, 373 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.000 the customers was running vms. It makes no sense to 374 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:09.079 me anyways. So I think the vms are like sixty 375 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:12.279 four megah this day and age sixty four megs snooze. 376 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:13.799 My kids don't even know what megs are. They start 377 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:14.559 with gigs yeaheah. 378 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:18.160 So it's like, uh, well, and that brings up another thing. 379 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:20.559 Could there be a configuration that says, you know, what 380 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:23.240 percent of available memory should the garbage collector start with? 381 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:26.000 There might be a setting for that somewhere in the system. 382 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:28.759 I have no idea. There's there's probably a whole bunch 383 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:30.720 of feature flags on the on the on the GC 384 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:32.200 that are way beyond as. 385 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:34.240 Long as this sign the registry, and we should. 386 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:37.079 Well, nipcore can't use the registry because it runs on 387 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:41.279 non Windows offerating system. So we, uh, we left that 388 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:46.119 building behind, thank you. We should talk about coding agents, Carl, I. 389 00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:48.880 Know we should, totally should, but we just streshed out 390 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:50.960 of the keynote. Yeah, and I gotta say, you know, 391 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:52.519 somebody's asked you, so what do you think it is? 392 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:55.079 I think Microsoft's doing what Microsoft's best, which is building 393 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:58.240 tools so the rest of us can take advantage of 394 00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:02.400 the new capabilities. And what was this hour and a half, 395 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:04.519 but check out the new tools. 396 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:06.759 And one thing that we were talking about before we 397 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:11.200 started recording was it was almost a little what was 398 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:14.680 the word that I used, like it was not confusing, 399 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:17.680 but it made it look simpler than it was because 400 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:21.079 basically it just looked like the demos where people clicking 401 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:23.960