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That's Chumbuck Casino dot Com 23 00:00:56.759 --> 00:00:59.759 and Lived Chumba Lane, No We Necessary DVOI where Everybody 24 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:02.399 lost or reconditions Eating plus host. 25 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:15.599 You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking 26 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:18.719 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 27 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:26.040 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 28 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:29.760 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:34.400 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:48.239 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good evening, This is your 31 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:51.640 host Stanzubaski for the program True Murder, The most Shocking 32 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:54.280 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 33 00:01:54.319 --> 00:02:00.280 written about them. This week has announced it speaks to 34 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:04.319 be announced was the title of the program. I'm using 35 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:08.400 opportunity tonight to talk about my book Trophy Kill, but 36 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:11.800 more importantly, just an update of what's been happening with 37 00:02:11.879 --> 00:02:15.000 the trial. The crime occurred in two thousand and three, 38 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:19.879 and in July July first, two thousand and three, and 39 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:24.560 here we are almost seven years from that date and 40 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:29.120 still in the appeal process. The appeal occurred and I 41 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:32.759 attended on May twenty first, and here we are at 42 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:36.080 June twenty third, and still the judges have reserved their 43 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:40.319 decision on this incredible case. The most I think for 44 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:44.479 anybody that reads about this from my book Trophy Kill, 45 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:50.360 the Shall We Dance Murder, we'll be aware of incredibly 46 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:54.479 curious decision to take so long for such an obvious 47 00:02:54.960 --> 00:03:01.520 murder case with really no appeal thirteen grounds. Well, we'll 48 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:04.520 talk about the appeal and on what points they appealed 49 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:09.080 the sentence. For those that have not heard about Trophy Kill, 50 00:03:09.639 --> 00:03:13.080 I will tell you about the book that I became 51 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:17.199 involved with in two thousand and four. First off, let 52 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:19.879 me tell you a little bit of background about the 53 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:24.400 case itself. In two thousand and three, on July first, 54 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:30.319 in Winnipeg, Canada, the Mirrimax movie Shall We Dance was 55 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:33.960 being filmed, starring Jennifer Lopez, Richard Gere, and Susan Sarandon. 56 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:38.919 Jennifer Lopez wasn't in the city as of yet, but 57 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:41.919 she was arriving set to arrive in a few days 58 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:49.439 after July first, and the paparazzi who always follow really 59 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:53.520 popular celebrities around were in town ready for the arrival 60 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:57.000 of Jennifer Lopez. And then at that time, Jennifer Lopez 61 00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:00.919 was engaged to actor Ben Affleck, and there was a 62 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:04.520 little bit of controversy where Ben Affleck was filming in 63 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:10.560 Vancouver and there was some talk of some rendezvous with 64 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:15.360 a dancer in Vancouver, and as a subsequent as people 65 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:18.480 know in Jennifer Lopez's life, that marriage didn't work out. 66 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:21.959 So it was a real seminal time for their relationship 67 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:28.160 and Jennifer Lopez's career, I guess, and more importantly personal relationship. Anyway, 68 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:30.800 they were shooting the film Shall We Dance in Winnipeg, 69 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:33.160 and Susan Sarandon had been in town for a couple 70 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:36.920 of weeks, and so had Richard Gear. And Richard Gear 71 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:42.600 had been taking dancing lessons at a studio downtown next 72 00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:47.560 to a bar called the Woodbine Hotel. And that will 73 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:49.480 be important a little bit later on. 74 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:53.519 Anyway, on July first, she called police. Susan Sarrand had 75 00:04:53.519 --> 00:05:00.519 called police after her and her assistant noticed that some 76 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:03.399 jewelry had been taken from her trailer after they had 77 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:07.160 been recently at the trailer taking off the jewelry. It 78 00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:14.160 was worn. It's a necklace with a amulet, a bar. 79 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:18.360 It's anyway, if you go to the movie there are 80 00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:23.040 certain scenes where she is wearing this older looking pendant 81 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:28.879 with a chain and a bar attached and the amulant 82 00:05:29.959 --> 00:05:36.439 more pendant attached to that necklace gold necklace. Anyway, she 83 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:40.800 reported this gold necklace, a silver bracelet, and a couple 84 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:44.920 ear rings stolen from her trailer from the set of 85 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:48.199 the Merrimax movie as Shall We Dance? And this was 86 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:54.079 on July first. On July second, again police were still 87 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:56.560 looking for this jewelry. They had no clues as to 88 00:05:56.759 --> 00:05:58.040 where this jewelry had. 89 00:05:59.480 --> 00:05:59.920 Gotten to. 90 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:05.600 On July second, round nine am, about twenty four hours 91 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:09.040 later or so after this jewelry had been reported stolen, 92 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:14.079 maybe less, a man named Sidney Tierhues and that spelled 93 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:19.240 t w R hui s Sydney walked into a police 94 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:23.920 station and they reported at that time very calmly walked, 95 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:27.360 especially this under the circumstances, calmly walked into what he 96 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:29.879 thought was a police station, but it was actually a 97 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:33.839 remand center. And the remand center was for those people 98 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:38.319 awaiting bail on remand so they were in custody, so 99 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:42.160 it wasn't in fact a police station. But I guess 100 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:44.040 the next best thing if you're going to report a 101 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:46.519 crime anyway, walked in there and said he wanted to 102 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:48.480 talk to somebody, and they asked him what it was about, 103 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:50.439 and he said he wanted to basically speak to somebody 104 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:56.040 in private, and a man named Donald Stephenson took him 105 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:58.319 in the back and asked them, well, how can I 106 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:01.600 help you here? What's the problem. He said, listen, I 107 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:04.000 wanted to turn myself in because I think I killed somebody. 108 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:07.160 And he said, hey, hey, just hang on, I'm not 109 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:11.199 the person. You should say this too. He had a 110 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:15.279 phone and he gave Sydney the number and said, hey, listen, 111 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:18.639 dial this number. Call these people. This is the you know, 112 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:21.680 we're not the police. Call the police and tell them 113 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:24.839 and then tell them where you are. So he called 114 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:30.360 the police, and a woman named Robin Sepanski answered the 115 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:33.240 phone and asked him if she could help him, and 116 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:37.319 he basically repeated that he wanted to turn himself in 117 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:41.680 because he had met this man the night the day 118 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:45.279 before and they had drank alcohol all day, and he 119 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:50.560 said he claimed to have passed out intoxicated, and when 120 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:54.040 he awoke some many hours later, he went to the 121 00:07:54.079 --> 00:08:00.439 bathroom and discovered his acquaintance dead in the bathtub, chopped 122 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:03.680 up in the bathtub. So that's what he told the 123 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:07.759 nine to one one operator when he was when he 124 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:10.319 spoke to her, and she said, well, how did you 125 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:12.240 kill him? How'd you do it? He said, well, I 126 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:14.560 use the knife. Well where's the knife now, Well, it's 127 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:19.199 left under the bathtub. So she told them he told 128 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:23.680 her where the weapon was, and so there was a 129 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:26.160 few details, but basically that's what he had said to them, 130 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:29.879 and she testified much later on and noted to the 131 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:36.159 police that he was very calm, very nonchalant, very unemotional. 132 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:40.759 You know, I guess from years of experience with people 133 00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:46.279 under certain similar circumstances of finding someone dead, they would 134 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:50.519 have reacted differently. So that was noted. Anyway, the police 135 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:53.919 escorted they came there if they arrived at the Remann 136 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.799 Center to a short distance away from the police station 137 00:08:57.279 --> 00:09:01.759 public safety building, And they arrived there some fifteen or 138 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:06.279 twenty minutes later, and then we're pointed out to Sydney 139 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:10.799 sitting on a bench near the door, and they asked 140 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:14.360 him to repeat his story, and he said he met 141 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:17.360 He gave more detail. He said he had met the 142 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:22.440 man they met at the Woodbine and they met for drinks, 143 00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:27.679 and he said he first met Robin Green, the victim, 144 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:33.039 when he came into the woodbine trying to sell a necklace, 145 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:38.759 a gold necklace, and he was not interested, he said, 146 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:44.480 but he was interested in Robin Green. And they drank 147 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:48.240 together for a short period of time, and then Sydney 148 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:51.039 had said to Robin, hey, listen, I've got some drinks 149 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:53.519 at my hotel and it's just down the laneway at 150 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:58.399 the Royal Albert Hotel, Royal Albert Arms Hotel. So they 151 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:04.440 both agreed go back to the hotel. Now Sydney claims 152 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:09.519 that they had sex, and there were photos taken with 153 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:17.120 a disposable camera of Robin Green posing in various different 154 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:24.879 clothing and different poses throughout the apartment, and Sydney claimed 155 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:28.759 that they had homosexual sex, had sex in the apartment 156 00:10:29.320 --> 00:10:32.399 or apartment in the rented hotel room, and then they 157 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:36.039 decided to go outside get some cold beer. Was especially 158 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:43.840 hot day July first, and they went from the hotel 159 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:49.000 and they went back in the general area, in fact, 160 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:54.840 more so right in back to almost where the trailers 161 00:10:54.879 --> 00:11:00.759 were and more importantly where there was barkid set up 162 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:04.200 in security because they were shooting some outdoor scenes for 163 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:11.120 the Shall We Dance? Movie, and fans of the of 164 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:15.039 the movie stars and just general onlookers were near the area, 165 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:18.000 and hence the reason for the barricades and the security, 166 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:20.840 and it was quite a scene, basically, with a few 167 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:24.879 hundred people milling around trying to get a sense of 168 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:27.480 what was going on and seeing if they could get 169 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:30.039 a you know, a look a peek at one of 170 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:37.720 their movie stars. And anyway, Sydney and Robin went into 171 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:43.080 a park that's known for homosexuals to frequent and they 172 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.120 sat there and they had some more drinks, and they 173 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:48.200 stayed there for a couple hours, will say, I'm not 174 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:51.200 sure how long, and then they came back to the hotel. 175 00:11:52.240 --> 00:12:00.639 So they came back to the hotel and Sidney wanted 176 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:02.879 to get some ice, and he spoke to the bartender 177 00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:06.039 who was named Diane Last, and he asked Diane Last 178 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:11.000 to watch his friend while he went downstairs and got 179 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:17.120 ice for the two of them, and basically she noted 180 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:19.519 to the police that he was staggering and was really 181 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:27.840 unsteady on his feet, and Sydney returned from the basement 182 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:30.240 with his ice and they the two of them then 183 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:34.720 bid Diane Last the bartender, goodbye, and they went upstairs 184 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:41.159 to the hotel room. Now I'm sorry if I get 185 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:44.759 the story a little convoluted, but this is the order 186 00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:49.360 of events that happened. The last anyone saw of Robin 187 00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:53.440 Green was what I just spoke about. Diane Last was 188 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:57.559 the last witness to see Robin Green alive. The next day, 189 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:03.879 Sidney Cheery walked into that Reman Center and then told 190 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:07.200 police that he had woken from a blackout with this 191 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:10.399 gentleman to find him dead in the bathtub. Now, when 192 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:12.519 the police arrived at the Remann Center, the three of 193 00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:15.639 them then went to the hotel room. They went up 194 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:19.399 the elevator to room three h nine and they walked 195 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:24.879 in and despite the police officers being prepared for you know, 196 00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:27.440 he said the body would be chopped up, dispembered body, 197 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:31.240 they were not, and no one, I think could ever 198 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:37.360 be prepared for what they would find. Now, it was 199 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:39.440 a small room and as soon as they walked in, 200 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:47.879 of the female officer Schroeder, Sylvia Schroeder, proceeded to look 201 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:50.600 at the cot or the mattress that was in the room. 202 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:57.720 And it's a very small room, dirty old musquee hot, 203 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:03.840 filthy room at that time strewn with blood soaked underwear. 204 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:06.840 They could see that immediately there was dozens of pairs 205 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:11.360 of underwear with blood. They also quickly. She was in 206 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:13.320 the room quickly, I could say. It's a very small room, 207 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:15.919 and she could see that there was numerous stab wounds 208 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:18.519 to the mattress, and blood all over the mattress, and 209 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:21.320 blood over the wall, and blood leading up to the 210 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:25.360 washroom which was right there, hidden off this small room, 211 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:30.120 and there was a door and the bathroom if you 212 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:34.080 were to go in. When the police officer, he didn't 213 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:37.840 go in with the Sylvia Schroeder, she stayed back. He's 214 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:40.840 the only gentleman that went. The officer that went into 215 00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:44.919 the h and his name is August Meron. He went 216 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:49.440 through the doorway and immediately was hit with the display. 217 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:55.960 The body was posed and displayed facing the doorway as 218 00:14:55.960 --> 00:14:59.440 the officer would go in. The body had been cut 219 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:07.399 into eight separate pieces, but reassembled. The head was decapitated well. 220 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:11.000 That head was back on the neck and the shoulders. 221 00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:14.679 The arms were cut off at the elbows and the 222 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:18.600 legs cut off at the knees and those were placed 223 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:22.159 again in a display back where they would normally be. 224 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:31.600 The victim was castrated cleanly, so the penis in the 225 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:34.159 testicles where they're sitting where they would have been, but 226 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:39.360 detached from the body. One of the eyes was gouged 227 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:41.240 out and the other was deflated, and one of the 228 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:45.399 nipples was missing, and part of the arm was dissected. 229 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:52.279 But more importantly, what you couldn't miss was the slice. 230 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:56.399 With Lucky landslids, you can get lucky just about anywhere. 231 00:15:56.600 --> 00:15:59.960 Nearly beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen 232 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:01.320 the bride and groom? 233 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:01.720 Sorry? 234 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:04.519 Sorry, we're here. 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Board were prohibited by lock Ey team 241 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:22.080 plus terms and conditions applag see website for. 242 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:27.279 Details from neck right down to the waist, and everything 243 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:30.159 that would normally have been in the body cavity was gone, 244 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:35.840 the liver, the heart, the lungs, the windpipe, the intestines, 245 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:42.799 the everything the heart was gone, and it wasn't in 246 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:49.519 the apartment, the rented room, and it ends up it's 247 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:53.600 nowhere to be found. They searched probably a mile radius 248 00:16:53.639 --> 00:17:01.399 of the hotel and the sewer system. Nothing. The body 249 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:03.879 was in the batht of the body was clean. There 250 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:09.160 was no blood anywhere. So this sight that this police 251 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:15.319 officer saw him just froze and transfixed him. You can 252 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:19.240 imagine he just froze as he took this in slowly, 253 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:24.000 took him almost apparently about three minutes to take all 254 00:17:24.039 --> 00:17:29.279 this information in process. It to go from this initial 255 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:38.200 shock to eventual recognition of what you're seeing and then 256 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:42.920 just revulsion. And he staggered out of the room, made 257 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:46.839 it to the doorway, held himself up in the doorway, 258 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:55.119 and it's incredible. You know, a blow, a psychological blow 259 00:17:55.160 --> 00:18:02.920 to your mind. Even Jack the Ripper had not done 260 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:07.720 as he escalated in his murders. Jack the Ripper didn't 261 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:14.200 do what Sidney Tierhues did. There have been killers have 262 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:20.240 displayed their victims, but in writing this book, I had 263 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:29.839 to do the research. It's totally unique. Now, of course 264 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:38.519 he was charged for murder, but this being Canada, he 265 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:43.759 was automatically charged for second degree murder in that trial, 266 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:47.920 the possibility of reducing that second degree murder charge to 267 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:56.680 manslaughter is a good possibility, given precedent, and given at 268 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:07.480 that time that trial, custody accounted for twice, and sentences 269 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:15.559 were typically from six to ten years. You know, in 270 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.440 all practical terms, I'll get right down to the practical 271 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.759 math here, that a person that would be convicted in 272 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:28.200 other jurisdictions a murder is and was and very well 273 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:31.599 could be walking the streets in three or four years. Typically, 274 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:38.359 Typically despite the ability of giving someoney someone a life 275 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:45.079 sentence for manslaughter, because of lesser lenient precedents being set, 276 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:52.160 the judges and the courts themselves, either through appeal or 277 00:19:52.200 --> 00:20:00.759 in actual sentencing, chose this seemingly lenient sentence. Especially, it's 278 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:03.039 not a matter of punishment, it's a matter of appropriate 279 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:11.480 sentencing and appropriate identification of someone as a murderer. Manslaughter 280 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:13.599 sounds like you went out hunting and you were drunk 281 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.559 and you know, or some accidental death that of course 282 00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:23.039 you were responsible, but less responsible. Now, I don't want 283 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:24.680 to get caught up in that, but I wanted to 284 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:27.680 make sure that the audience understands that this is a 285 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:32.759 completely different system than the United States of America, regardless 286 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:37.079 of a clear premeditation and evidence of premeditation in this 287 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.920 particular case, that this killer set out to find a victim, 288 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:45.319 kill him, display and pose his body, and this murder 289 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:51.160 horror spectacle as I call it for lack of better term, merely, 290 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.920 once he knew he had Susan Surrand instilled in jewelry, 291 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:02.440 he decided to end. I contend and his reign of terror, 292 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:08.880 his reign of horror, and hence he walked into walk 293 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:13.119 to authorities and said, listen, you know, I think I 294 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.880 killed somebody. I woke up and you know, don't remember anything, 295 00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:22.599 of course, but I think I killed this person. Now, 296 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:28.519 if you apply the same logic that would that would 297 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:32.720 direct you or I or someone else, you know, this 298 00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:35.640 is not what can apply with the serial killer. In 299 00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:41.160 my book, we go somewhat into serial killing so people 300 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:45.200 understand what the serial killer profile really is. And I 301 00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:47.000 know a lot of people have read a lot of 302 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:50.119 true crime. It's the same some of the same information. 303 00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:53.960 I've tried to provide just the relevant information for people 304 00:21:54.000 --> 00:22:00.640 to understand. More so, the the psychopathic mind is a 305 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:04.519 given a person with no conscience. We're past that level. 306 00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:11.000 But the truly unique aspects of some serial killers are 307 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:16.039 that they have a strange, I guess strange to everyone 308 00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:21.839 else idea of mixing sex and murder. And these start 309 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:25.839 off as fantasies early in their lives typically, but in 310 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:30.960 the end, sex and murder are synonymous. They're desired, that 311 00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:37.400 is the fantasy. Murder creates a sexual feeling, a sexual desire, 312 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:40.720 and a sexual release, and part of the sexual fantasy 313 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:45.119 is murder. There are lots of classifications. There are the 314 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:50.559 sadistic killers, the but this person I would say classifies 315 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:57.119 as a lost killer by definition. I interviewed a gentleman 316 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:00.680 named Robert K. Wrestler, and anybody's read true crime knows 317 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:04.119 who Robert K. Wrestler is. Basically was one of the 318 00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:08.839 people that established the behavioral Science unit or the behavioral 319 00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:15.160 unit at the Quantico in Virginia, Quantico Beach or Quantico 320 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:21.559 pardon me, Quantico Field Office in the FBI Field office 321 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:25.480 that talked about that created the serial killer profile in 322 00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:28.720 the first place. So I interviewed Robert K. Wrestler many 323 00:23:28.759 --> 00:23:31.240 years ago before I had ever done this. It seemed 324 00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:36.319 strange and more than a coincidence that I would have 325 00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:41.160 spoken to him about John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer. 326 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:47.720 This killer has spoken, even initially in the first interviews 327 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:53.799 shortly after the murder, spoke about comparisons to Jeffrey Dahmer, 328 00:23:54.359 --> 00:23:58.440 and later on there is much talk about Jeffrey Dahmer, 329 00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:06.240 John Wayne Gacy, A Bundy, Aileen Warnos, serial killers, notorious 330 00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:12.799 serial killers, famous serial killers. It's very important now after 331 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:18.200 this crime, there was international coverage of this crime, of 332 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:23.799 this murder because of one reason, primarily the paparazzi were 333 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:28.920 in Winnipeg and as such reported on the crime and 334 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:37.880 celebrity online sites and mainstream newspapers, New York Times, all 335 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:42.680 kinds of media reported on the crime for a short 336 00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:46.839 few days because at first it was thought that Jennifer 337 00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:50.559 Lopez's jewelry, or at least it was reported by the 338 00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:55.559 paparazzi that Jennifer Lopez's jewelry had been stolen. Of course, 339 00:24:55.640 --> 00:25:00.240 Jennifer Lopez is much more important to the world the 340 00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:04.279 celebrity than Susan Sarandon, and shortly after it was reported 341 00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:07.440 that Susan Surrandon's jewelry was found a few feet away 342 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:14.920 from this horror spectacle, and the operazzi reported sensationalistically that 343 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.839 it was found in a pool of blood, which is inaccurate, 344 00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:23.480 but needless to say, that jewelry was found a few 345 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:29.759 feet away from this murder scene, this crime scene. A 346 00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:37.720 few weeks after this crime, the police service determined, and 347 00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:41.839 take this as you will, they determined that the jewelry 348 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:47.640 had no significance in terms of the motive for the murder. 349 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:52.000 Now I'm not sure how they determined that, but if 350 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:55.599 they were to say, we have no evidence that the 351 00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:58.960 jewelry has any has anything to do with the motive 352 00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:02.000 in this murder, well, then I guess that's easier to 353 00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:07.160 prove that there is no clear or conclusive evidence that 354 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:10.119 the jury had anything to do in terms of the motive. 355 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:13.680 But the only person that knows if the jury had 356 00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:16.799 anything to do in terms of the motive for this 357 00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:24.160 murder is the killer himself. Now, I believe if the 358 00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:28.640 killer himself were to admit that rather than what he 359 00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:32.640 did claim, which was I woke up and I don't remember, 360 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:36.920 and so I should be guilty of manslaughter because I 361 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:41.279 was intoxicated and hence didn't have the necessary intent to 362 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:47.960 kill that's how the laws interpreted here. But in this case, 363 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:53.480 in this very extreme case, this very emotional, sensationalistic case, 364 00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:00.920 it seems absurd that this person who was butchered and 365 00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:06.240 posed and displayed. Certainly you may not be able to 366 00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:11.480 conclusively say that the jewelry that was sitting there became 367 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:22.799 the motive for this killer, this incredible killer, this unique, vicious, 368 00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:30.480 psychopathic killer, to come forward to tell police, listen, you 369 00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:35.480 know I killed somebody, go check it out. Then he 370 00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:38.400 grants interviews right away. It says I'm not Jeffrey Dahmer, 371 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:49.960 smiling face front page of the newspaper, claiming he has 372 00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:55.240 no memory. This is the person that clearly craves celebrity. Again, 373 00:27:55.319 --> 00:28:00.720 another feature of we really don't study one off killers, 374 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:04.559 people that have only killed one person. They often study 375 00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:11.680 sadistic killers, killers that torture, killers that capture or abduct, 376 00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:18.960 killers like this that have clearly have something over and 377 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:24.640 beyond the run of the mill. Killer, we'll say, more 378 00:28:24.759 --> 00:28:29.599 understandable killer. This is much more than a random killing. 379 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:38.799 This is much more than anger. It's much more so. 380 00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:45.359 This killer had the attention of the world because of 381 00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:46.559 susan surround. 382 00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:48.160 Instolled in jewelry. 383 00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:52.880 The police quickly say that the jewelry had nothing to 384 00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:56.599 do with the motive, and hence that jewli doesn't have 385 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:02.440 to be a crime exhibit. No one, including Susan Sarandon 386 00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:05.960 nor her assistant have to come and testify as to 387 00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:14.400 actual events the Shall We Dance movie, any footage that 388 00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:17.200 had been shot with Susan Sarandon wearing that jewelry, and 389 00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:19.359 there is a fair amount of footage where she is 390 00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:23.119 wearing that jewelry in the film. A matter of budget, 391 00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:29.519 a matter of scheduling, and a matter of course talking 392 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:34.240 about continuity, that jewelry could not be tied up in 393 00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:37.400 court or as police exhibit or any other such thing. 394 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:40.680 And no one else could afford nor would want to 395 00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:43.920 come and testify as to any kind of events, nor 396 00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:49.519 which Shall We Dance mirror Max want to have anything 397 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:54.599 to do with the negative publicity of that murder. And 398 00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.000 that's all I'll say about it. That's all. That's all, 399 00:29:58.440 --> 00:30:01.599 you know. If I if I say more than that, 400 00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:07.359 then it sounds like I'm speculating on why things were done. 401 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:13.160