1 00:00:38,079 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: If you want to support the show and get the 2 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,679 episodes early and ad free, head on over to Freemanbeyond 3 00:00:44,679 --> 00:00:48,399 the Wall dot com forward slash Support. I want to 4 00:00:48,439 --> 00:00:53,079 explain something right now. If you support me through substack 5 00:00:53,719 --> 00:00:57,759 or Patreon, you have access to an RSS feed that 6 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,079 you can plug into any podcas catcher, including Apple, and 7 00:01:02,119 --> 00:01:04,519 you'll be able to listen to the episodes through there. 8 00:01:05,159 --> 00:01:08,920 If you support me through subscribe, star gum Road or 9 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,480 on my website directly, I will send you a link 10 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,000 where you can download the file and you can listen 11 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,120 to it any way you wish. I really appreciate the 12 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,400 support everyone gives me. It keeps a show going. It 13 00:01:22,439 --> 00:01:26,040 allows me to basically put out an episode every day now, 14 00:01:26,519 --> 00:01:29,159 and I'm not going to stop. I'm just going to accelerate. 15 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,879 I think sometimes you see that I'm putting out two 16 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,159 even three a day, and yeah, can't do it without you, 17 00:01:38,799 --> 00:01:40,959 So thank you for the support. Head on over to 18 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,239 Freeman Beyond the Wall dot com, forward slash Support and 19 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:45,879 do it there. 20 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:47,359 Speaker 3: Thank you. 21 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,959 Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekinona Show, 22 00:01:51,439 --> 00:01:55,959 continuing the Continental Philosophy series. Thomas seven seven seven is 23 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,560 with us? Are you doing today, Thomas, I. 24 00:01:58,640 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 3: Know it pretty well. 25 00:02:00,799 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: I know, like I said last episode, that it probably 26 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,840 seems peculiar to focus this much on Hobbes and a 27 00:02:07,959 --> 00:02:14,759 continental philosophy discussion, but it's essential. And Hobbs and Machiavelli 28 00:02:16,439 --> 00:02:21,840 are the key thinkers of modern political theory in terms 29 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,800 of its origins. I mean, obviously, i'd privilege Hegel is 30 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:31,919 the most important political theorist who ever lived. But the 31 00:02:32,039 --> 00:02:40,199 transition from the classical view of the political to the modern, 32 00:02:40,319 --> 00:02:44,919 you've got to understand Hobbes and Machiavelli and continental theorists, 33 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:52,759 particularly those from a juristic or mathematical school, which again 34 00:02:53,039 --> 00:02:57,240 all things encompassing theoretical mathematics were referred to as geometry 35 00:02:57,639 --> 00:02:58,719 in the early modern era. 36 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,759 Speaker 3: All of those thinkers were in. 37 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:08,479 Speaker 2: Dialogue with Hobbes, and Hobbs credited himself as the discoverer 38 00:03:08,599 --> 00:03:11,360 of the science of politics, whether whether you accept the 39 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,879 existence of such a thing or not. Hobbs considered himself 40 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,960 to be the founder or discoverer rather of that paradigm, 41 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:27,879 and basically everyone subsequent who accepts that postulate views him 42 00:03:27,879 --> 00:03:35,240 that way too. It's not accidental that he called his 43 00:03:35,319 --> 00:03:46,439 book Leviathan. What Leviathan is is significant to this symbolic 44 00:03:46,479 --> 00:03:53,159 psychological aspect of what he was talking about in basic capacities. 45 00:03:57,199 --> 00:03:59,919 If you're a Protestant, you mostly know Leviathan from the 46 00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:04,240 A Good Job. Leviathan features in the Psalms, in the 47 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,960 Book of Job, in Isaiah, and in a lot of 48 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,960 the apocrypha. Leviathan is is in the book you know, 49 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:21,800 you know, and Catholics and Orthodox I believe, I believe 50 00:04:21,879 --> 00:04:27,759 Leviathan is depicted within a lot of medieval artwork and 51 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:34,720 subsequent as the sin of envy. Okay, that's not that's 52 00:04:34,759 --> 00:04:41,759 that's not really what it represents in scripture significantly, The 53 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,720 O fights are the fights. I'm sure I'm punching that pronunciation. 54 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,759 They were a Gnostic sect in Rome in the third 55 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:58,920 and fourth centuries a d. They were revered serpents, intotemic capacities. 56 00:05:00,399 --> 00:05:04,439 A lot of the stuff, including in the Conan movie 57 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:11,079 where people are worshiping Set, you know, the Egyptian deity. 58 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,399 Speaker 3: I think Sets, Lord of the Dead or something. Okay, but. 59 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 2: Anyway, these sorts of sinister pagans or depicted as worshiping snakes, 60 00:05:22,079 --> 00:05:24,879 well that was the O Fightes that's where that comes from. 61 00:05:25,879 --> 00:05:27,879 Speaker 3: Okay. 62 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,399 Speaker 2: Specifically, they believe that the serpent in the Garden of 63 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:37,160 Eden in Genesis was like an instantation of wisdom and 64 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:43,759 sacred knowledge. And they also revered Leviathan. What as far 65 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:48,639 as to say they worship Leviathan, Leviathan was the embodiment 66 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,680 of the world soul that encascelated all living things, in 67 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:57,480 animate mayor, and it was depicted almost like the Viking 68 00:05:57,959 --> 00:06:01,879 world serpent. Leviathan spaan and surrounds the earth like in 69 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:14,120 a quair, and you know, presumably he straddles, you know, 70 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:19,079 the corporeal realm as well as whatever is beyond. You know, 71 00:06:19,519 --> 00:06:25,439 Narcissism is essentially neo Platonists. Okay, But in the Bible, 72 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:32,040 the most that's written about Leviathan is Job forty one, 73 00:06:32,319 --> 00:06:39,120 and hob specifically was referring to Job forty one thirty four, 74 00:06:40,519 --> 00:06:45,920 which says he he meaning Leviathan, he beholdeth all high things. 75 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,720 He is king, He is a king over all the 76 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,879 children of Pride. So in other words, Leviathan is this 77 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,600 terrible monstrosity, and it's so powerful it can crush Pride 78 00:06:55,639 --> 00:06:58,959 out of men like all Neil before it. You know, 79 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,240 no matter how pride they are or how much humorous 80 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:07,879 has possessed them. Okay, well, Leviathan is literally in physical terms, 81 00:07:07,959 --> 00:07:11,399 it's a giant sea monster. It's a sea serpent. It's 82 00:07:11,519 --> 00:07:18,079 Lord of the Sea. And when God created the cosmos 83 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,240 and the earth and the sea, there was all these 84 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:26,480 primordial demons that ruled the earth. Leviathan ruled the sea. 85 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,439 And there's none more powerful at sea. Behemoth was the 86 00:07:30,439 --> 00:07:33,439 beast of the land. He's depicted either as an elephant, 87 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,680 the Hemoth is or this kind of chimeric monster. And 88 00:07:38,519 --> 00:07:41,279 Zizz is Lord of the air. Ziz is a giant 89 00:07:41,399 --> 00:07:44,319 terror bird kind of like across a griffin and a pterodact. 90 00:07:45,319 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 3: Okay, so. 91 00:07:47,839 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 2: These in earliest creation, and these monstrous, massively powerful, chaotic 92 00:07:53,279 --> 00:07:57,000 almost loved crafty and creatures. They ruled over certain aspects 93 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,720 of creation. But then they were ultimately so objugated by 94 00:08:00,759 --> 00:08:03,000 God and almost and like literally made to heal and 95 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,959 they were turned into kind of almost pets. But this 96 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:14,040 makes sense that an Englishman would would would view the 97 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,480 absolute sovereign, the most great and terrible thing as Leviathan, 98 00:08:18,839 --> 00:08:24,439 because obviously the sea encapsulates Great Britain. You know, and 99 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,000 it's the source of its power, you know, even back then, 100 00:08:27,839 --> 00:08:32,120 and something that was going to subjugate and crush even 101 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:37,240 the mightiest war lords and would be sovereigns and self 102 00:08:37,279 --> 00:08:41,320 I've anointed in the siah Is. It very much tracks 103 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:46,519 with kind of the psychology of of the people native 104 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:51,480 to Britannia that it would be the sea monster, you know. 105 00:08:51,639 --> 00:08:54,320 But that's but the key, the key to it is 106 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,840 what I said, it's Joe forty one thirty four. Like 107 00:08:57,799 --> 00:09:01,159 Leviathan looks upon all the highest things, and he is 108 00:09:01,639 --> 00:09:05,240 a king over all in his domain. You know, he 109 00:09:05,279 --> 00:09:08,440 can only be subjugated by God, and he's so powerful 110 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:13,840 and terrifying he can crush pride out of all men 111 00:09:13,919 --> 00:09:22,559 who aspire to power and greatness. Now, this seems that 112 00:09:23,159 --> 00:09:30,080 there's an overemphasis on fear emanating from the essence of 113 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:35,080 the sovereign. That's not an accident, because that's the essence 114 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:40,480 of sovereignty. It's not just mortal decisionism and the power, 115 00:09:42,759 --> 00:09:48,279 you know, determined matters of life and death over those 116 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,120 subjugated in the body politic. 117 00:09:50,279 --> 00:09:51,759 Speaker 3: But fear is. 118 00:09:51,679 --> 00:10:00,159 Speaker 2: The mechanism of sovereignty that facilitates political order within this 119 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:09,039 mathematical paradigm or geometric paradigm. Rather, you know, Hobbes's view 120 00:10:09,039 --> 00:10:10,600 of virtue is pragmatic. 121 00:10:12,519 --> 00:10:13,639 Speaker 3: The entire. 122 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: Book Leviathan is in dialogue, is in punitive dialogue with 123 00:10:20,879 --> 00:10:30,039 Aristotle and the Aristotelian concept of virtue. To Hobbes, virtue 124 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:35,759 was in the past in most political writing, and especially 125 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:42,000 that which was written for the benefit of princes and nobles. 126 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,720 It was basically a rationalization for how powerful people are 127 00:10:46,759 --> 00:10:50,000 able to exploit and invent their own strength to enrich 128 00:10:50,039 --> 00:10:53,120 themselves and create value. And Hobbs wasn't saying that that's 129 00:10:53,159 --> 00:10:56,440 necessarily a bad thing. But to pretend that there's this 130 00:10:56,519 --> 00:11:01,559 kind of metaphysical value to it beyond that which is 131 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:11,120 pragmatic is misguided. Have declared that virtue is nothing more 132 00:11:11,159 --> 00:11:14,519 than the habit of doing what tends towards one's own 133 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:19,399 self preservation. But owing to it's fundamental condition and essence, 134 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:26,559 you know, part of what contributes to one's own self 135 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:32,799 preservation and enrichment is to facilitate permitting others to do 136 00:11:32,879 --> 00:11:37,039 the same, you know, and acting like a brute ultimately 137 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:43,159 is counterproductive and sabotage is that self interested enterprise you know, 138 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:49,200 so there is a balancing calculus here vice contra. This 139 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,919 pragmatic orientation towards virtue is basically anything to the contrary 140 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,639 that is offensive to order, and that is self sabotaging. 141 00:12:00,399 --> 00:12:05,039 And we'll get into this in a minute, because first 142 00:12:05,039 --> 00:12:08,720 we've got to define more about the essence of sovereign authority. 143 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,200 But this is why, even from a pragmatic perspective, things 144 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,480 like modern government are legitimate, like sabotaging the fortunes of 145 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,720 entire classes of people based on this like imaginary appeal 146 00:12:20,879 --> 00:12:24,039 to you know, the dignity of some race or population. 147 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,200 That's the definition of tyranny. It's also self sabotaging of 148 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:37,639 the enterprise of sovereignty, which only exists derivative the consent 149 00:12:37,759 --> 00:12:38,879 to the body politic. 150 00:12:39,879 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 3: You know. 151 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 2: So this is important because some people misread Hobbes and 152 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,440 say that, well, you know, once once Leviathan is anointed, 153 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,000 it can do whatever it wants. That's not true. But 154 00:12:51,639 --> 00:12:56,120 moving on, one of the reasons why Hobbs is credited 155 00:12:56,159 --> 00:13:00,200 to is kind of the father of liberalism, up with 156 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:05,159 a lot of liberalism, even though in America people generally 157 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:11,960 assigned that significance to John Locke because the American system 158 00:13:12,039 --> 00:13:15,279 as it existed, I mean, it hasn't existed for you know, 159 00:13:17,399 --> 00:13:24,480 since Agent's sixty five. But Locke drew upon a lot 160 00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:28,679 of Hobbes's political ontology, but he frankly softened it and 161 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,759 also his view of the social contract a totally different parameters. 162 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:41,519 And also Locke wasn't nearly as hostile to the concept 163 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:49,240 of of aristocracy. Like we talked about the last episode. 164 00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:57,000 Hobbs rejected the Riscitilian postulate that you know, some men 165 00:13:57,039 --> 00:13:59,720 are by nature, you know, more worthy to command, and others, 166 00:14:00,159 --> 00:14:04,519 you know, axiomatically worthy to serve. He rejected that based 167 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,519 on the economy of violence, and that in the Habbizian 168 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,759 state of nature which precedes political order, you know, any 169 00:14:12,799 --> 00:14:16,039 man can murder an individual in command and seize that 170 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:21,960 command for himself. You know, there's nothing in nature precluding that. 171 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:27,320 And beyond that, Hobbs makes the point that in government 172 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,600 one must do everything in their power to prevent the 173 00:14:30,639 --> 00:14:35,279 emergence of pride within representatives of the sovereign, and in 174 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,200 order to abide this in order in order to abide 175 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:45,720 this conceptual framework where this philosophical orientation, where some men 176 00:14:45,759 --> 00:14:52,200 are the natural aristocracy that does nothing if not inculcate. 177 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,759 Speaker 3: People with pride, and an overweening pride at that. 178 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,279 Speaker 2: And even if they even if they believe themselves to 179 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,679 be good man, and even if by some measure they are, 180 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:09,559 you know, what what derives from their decisionism is always 181 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,879 going to be rationalized as as you know, deriving from 182 00:15:13,879 --> 00:15:19,480 some essential benevolence and you know, contained within their essential nature, 183 00:15:19,559 --> 00:15:22,919 as you know, the natural elite, you know. And that's 184 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,559 I don't accept that argument, but it's persuasive, and it's 185 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:30,240 internally logical and within the geometry of politics that Hobbs 186 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:34,039 genuinely believes that he had discovered, that makes perfect sense. 187 00:15:34,799 --> 00:15:35,039 Speaker 3: You know. 188 00:15:35,559 --> 00:15:39,799 Speaker 2: And beyond that, Hobbs says, even if, even if Aristotle's right, 189 00:15:40,519 --> 00:15:46,679 even if men are fundamentally unequal by nature, individual men, 190 00:15:46,759 --> 00:15:50,519 particularly those of great ambition, will always consider themselves equal, 191 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,960 or at least on equal terms, before the law and 192 00:15:55,039 --> 00:15:59,960 certainly before God. So they'll be unwilling to make peace 193 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,960 unless this is acknowledged, you know. Beyond supervisial terms, there's 194 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:08,840 got to be some basic equality of status that's structurally 195 00:16:08,919 --> 00:16:13,399 coded in to the sovereign mechanism as well as that's 196 00:16:13,399 --> 00:16:20,600 internalized by the individuals that constant the body politic. And 197 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,919 it can't just be a perfunctory thing that's acknowledged in 198 00:16:26,039 --> 00:16:32,080 passing or by storing language and some official document. It's 199 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,559 got to actually be believed, and it's got to be a 200 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:42,240 core tenet of how equity is realized and procedural as 201 00:16:42,279 --> 00:16:46,639 well as substantive terms. So for the sake of keys 202 00:16:46,879 --> 00:16:53,799 within the parameters of sovereign authority, that this has to 203 00:16:53,879 --> 00:16:57,960 be acknowledging. And it doesn't exist. So even if it's 204 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,639 a fiction, it is a law of nature in the 205 00:17:00,679 --> 00:17:04,200 Hbisian sense that all men must acknowledge each other as 206 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,480 equal by nature, even if it is a fiction. You know, 207 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:13,839 this renders natural differences within the body politic irrelevant. Okay, 208 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,759 And again we're talking about the domain of the political, 209 00:17:16,759 --> 00:17:19,319 which is the discrete sphere of human activity. We're not 210 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,119 talking about an absolute existential terms or something like that, 211 00:17:24,039 --> 00:17:33,880 and people misconstrue that as well. So the purpose of 212 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:41,440 this geometry of politics, it's got a single purpose, and 213 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:52,960 invoking the laws of nature to rationalize, you know, the 214 00:17:53,200 --> 00:18:01,559 architecture of that purpose. All this tends to make men 215 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,400 sociable and peaceable and to abolish or reduced to a 216 00:18:05,519 --> 00:18:13,119 minimum or as minimal as possible, friction, resentment, hostilities deriving 217 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:19,839 from pride or partiality, or discrete ambition, or excessive self 218 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:24,920 love or exploitative convetousness, all of these that's for the 219 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:31,279 purpose of the entire science of politics is and the 220 00:18:31,519 --> 00:18:37,920 Easian conceptual framework of nature. What they represent are guiding 221 00:18:38,039 --> 00:18:46,000 poll stars and rules and laws for unbiased arbitration and 222 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,680 impartial distribution of goods, and the creation of incentives to 223 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:58,000 avoid in gratitude becoming endemic within the body politic, and 224 00:18:58,079 --> 00:19:06,279 to breed a basic absolute respect for the law. So 225 00:19:06,319 --> 00:19:09,720 when he's talking about nature and natural laws, he's not 226 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,079 resorting to ethics. He's not talking about natural law arguments 227 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,240 as we think of him in legal theory or that 228 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,960 you know, we think of in the terms that theologians 229 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:31,240 and these liberal moralists like John Rawls talked about. He's 230 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:35,640 talking about the basic architecture of the natural world and 231 00:19:35,759 --> 00:19:41,319 the as regards human affairs and the absence of a 232 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:49,119 governing sovereign. Okay, he literally believed himself to be discovering 233 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:59,640 identifiable and quantifiable geometric variables relating to power paradigms within 234 00:19:59,759 --> 00:20:05,319 the within human social existence. Okay, so that's important. He's 235 00:20:05,319 --> 00:20:09,400 not passing a value judgment on it. Hobbs has learned 236 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,400 in the Bible, you know, like any Englishman of his 237 00:20:12,559 --> 00:20:16,880 cast and education would be. And he was a believing Christian. 238 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,799 And Hobbs absolutely suggested, I didn't want to do this later, 239 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,480 Why did he go into a part three? He absolutely 240 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:33,559 suggested that to purposefully and with malice a forethought, make 241 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,960 hash with these laws of nature. There there'll be a 242 00:20:38,079 --> 00:20:42,839 terrible punishment derived from God's architecture. And in the case 243 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,039 of his sovereign you know, who ignores these things, you know, 244 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,240 owing to his own hubris or owing to fact he 245 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:56,079 believes himself to be a god on earth, you know, 246 00:20:56,559 --> 00:21:00,240 he will probably he will probably be murdered in a 247 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,480 rebellion if he's too much of a tyrant, or if 248 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:08,680 he merely gross he mismanages his role is sovereign. And obviously, 249 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:15,440 you know, any anything he accomplishes in legacy terms will 250 00:21:16,319 --> 00:21:24,960 be rapidly dismantled, as whatever structures he erected literally and 251 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:30,160 figurative will be unable to serve their function of you know, 252 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:38,759 reducing friction within the body politic to minimal quantities such that, 253 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,960 you know, the regime that he serves and in some 254 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,319 cases created, will exist in perpetuity. 255 00:21:50,039 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 3: So that's key. And of course. 256 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 2: The big critique from subsequent liberal schools of thought as 257 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:18,279 well as you know, from classical oriented theorist and reactionaries, 258 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,680 was well, how how can how can how can this 259 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,000 geometry of politics be sustainable if there's no true moral 260 00:22:27,039 --> 00:22:31,200 framework and distancentive there artists incentives though you know, again, 261 00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:36,119 what kindcuts of virtue in political terms is do not 262 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,200 doing to others what you would not have them do 263 00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:47,039 unto you. You know, So acting violating natural laws of 264 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:53,279 political geometry to enrich one sells at the expense of others, 265 00:22:53,319 --> 00:23:01,480 you know, is barbarism under a veneer of of of 266 00:23:01,519 --> 00:23:05,960 some sort of abiding rationale, you know, whether it's some 267 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:11,680 contrivance of divine right, whether or you know, I claim 268 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:17,079 that one is uh is a natural lord and those 269 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:24,160 that he oppresses or natural slaves, or you know, a 270 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,039 man claiming that he's part of a minority uh race 271 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:33,160 or sect and that affords him special privileges and protections 272 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:40,519 contra the majoritarian ethnos. I mean, it can be anything. 273 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,359 But this is ultimately self defeating. And we're seeing this 274 00:23:45,519 --> 00:23:49,000 right now in the American situation. And I shouldn't need 275 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,880 to I shouldn't need to paint a simpletons picture as 276 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,880 to what I mean. The subs are smart, so I'm 277 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:09,519 sure they discern that the uh, and also too, you know, 278 00:24:09,559 --> 00:24:16,200 the central defect of trying to extrapolate Christian ethics to 279 00:24:16,319 --> 00:24:25,440 politics is that, uh, the essential defect of saying that, well, logos, 280 00:24:25,519 --> 00:24:28,359 you know, and and and higher reason should like alan 281 00:24:28,519 --> 00:24:37,799 should rule politics, because you're presuming that every subject, of 282 00:24:37,799 --> 00:24:42,519 of the of the political sovereign is some sort of 283 00:24:42,559 --> 00:24:46,000 God hearing actor. Because the only thing that binds men 284 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,880 in such conditions is there is there is there conscious 285 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,200 is in the individual and the inner witness of the individual, 286 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,440 you know, and beyond that even you know, all all 287 00:24:59,519 --> 00:25:02,119 men are so, even men who fear God, and even 288 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:08,640 men who believe in the living Christ, you know, the 289 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,640 punishment they have to fear is that of their you know, 290 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:18,359 immortal soul and judgment before God. You know, if there's 291 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:24,200 an immediate hope of reward, they'll probably take their chances. 292 00:25:24,839 --> 00:25:28,039 You know, even men who are otherwise you know, basically 293 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:33,319 decent people. This is what Hobbs called the fear of 294 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,359 quote invisible powers. You know that exists in the state 295 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,759 of nature, and it's ubiquitous, But that's not powerful enough. 296 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,960 The political is man's domain, not God's. You know, you're 297 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,319 ultimately accountable to God for everything you do, but God's 298 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:53,920 not some arbiter or the political. 299 00:25:54,599 --> 00:25:54,799 Speaker 3: You know. 300 00:25:54,920 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 2: What is needed is the establishment of conditions that reward 301 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,920 people for obeying the natural law of political geometry and 302 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,839 punish people horribly who don't. 303 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 3: You know. 304 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 2: In short, the essence of sovereignty is visible power contra 305 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:29,359 invisible powers, you know, and security first and foremost within 306 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:35,920 the body politic must be paramount. Some people suggest that, 307 00:26:36,039 --> 00:26:41,319 particularly the twentieth century, where I think even intelligent people 308 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,079 with a long view of the struggle processes, they developed 309 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:52,160 a skewed perspective owing to the anomaloust violence of it 310 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:58,400 and interstate warring becoming normal when in fact it's totally abnormal. 311 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,359 But a lot of these people said, well, Hobbs don't 312 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:06,400 really concerned with the internal situation and the body politics 313 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,680 ability to come to consensus that violence, you know, because 314 00:27:11,599 --> 00:27:13,680 you know that thirty years war and the war three 315 00:27:13,799 --> 00:27:18,279 kingdoms was what set the tenor for this, you know. 316 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:25,920 So he was his object his objectivity was compromised by 317 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,799 the specter of murderous civil war. But that's the wrong 318 00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:33,480 way to look at it, because if you don't, peace 319 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:38,160 within the body politic is what makes all other security possible. 320 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,039 You know that that's what facilitates security and the ability 321 00:27:43,079 --> 00:27:50,200 to defend against enemies of alienage, you know, and foreign 322 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,240 threats like that. The converse isn't the case, you know, 323 00:27:54,559 --> 00:28:04,799 And Hobbs's really the essence of a sovereign polity. The 324 00:28:04,799 --> 00:28:09,160 brass tax of it is the ability to achieve consensus 325 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:14,240 within a body politic that is ossified around a consensus 326 00:28:14,319 --> 00:28:19,680 that thus then precludes civil war, you know. And it's 327 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,799 and and men voluntarily take themselves out of the state 328 00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:27,680 of war of all against all in order to identify 329 00:28:29,519 --> 00:28:34,599 as a body politic, whereby a moral consensus allows the 330 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,279 selection of a sovereign who will then wield the absolute 331 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:43,000 power of life and death over every individual constituent element 332 00:28:43,039 --> 00:28:47,079 to the body politic, you know. So it's not the issue, 333 00:28:47,119 --> 00:28:50,480 isn't whether civil war is rare or common or that 334 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:55,000 that doesn't figure into the calculus. What it is is 335 00:28:55,039 --> 00:28:59,200 it's a prerequisite for the creation of sovereignty and its 336 00:28:59,279 --> 00:29:05,519 establishment and it's and it's functioning according to the you know, 337 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,720 parameters of the previously identified. 338 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:25,519 Speaker 3: Natural law the UH and this is why, and this 339 00:29:25,599 --> 00:29:32,880 is important because it's another issue of first impression. A 340 00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:44,000 key to Hobbes's political ontology is that the sovereign must 341 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:51,440 political union of the body politic, authority conceptual and actual 342 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,720 deriving from sovereignty and and and the sovereign itself. This 343 00:29:57,759 --> 00:30:01,720 has to be concentrated within an actual person, you know, 344 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,880 justice and injustice and political terms and what people owe 345 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,880 to the sovereign and what the sovereign knows the body 346 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:17,920 politic This all rests upon to this day the abstraction 347 00:30:18,079 --> 00:30:24,880 of legal personhood. But an essential postulate of Habbisian politics 348 00:30:25,079 --> 00:30:28,880 political theory is that this must be an actual person. 349 00:30:30,039 --> 00:30:35,519 Speaker 2: And that again that that's an issue of first impression. 350 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:42,759 You know, there were great kings and Athens obviously, you know, 351 00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:50,799 like Pericles and stuff, and Caesar was revered as a 352 00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:58,000 god on earth, you know, at this at zenith. But 353 00:30:58,119 --> 00:31:02,000 this hadn't been proposed before. People didn't claim that the 354 00:31:02,119 --> 00:31:05,880 essence of sovereignty can only exist within the man of 355 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:15,160 the king himself, you know. And the reason why there's 356 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:20,720 a pragmatic aspect obviously because it's comforting to people and 357 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:25,839 it also allows them to orient themselves correctly if they 358 00:31:25,839 --> 00:31:31,440 can point too like a sovereign king or queen or 359 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:36,119 emperor or a lord protector, you know, warlord like Cromwell 360 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,720 and say, you know that man is the emperor or 361 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,799 that man is the king, or that man is the 362 00:31:41,799 --> 00:31:49,599 lord protector, you know, and embodied within him is the 363 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:57,880 will of the body politic. Because your individual will is 364 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:05,799 sacrificed to the sovereign the interest of you know, security 365 00:32:05,839 --> 00:32:09,720 being sustained internally in perpetuity, as well as you know, 366 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,160 allowing justice and equity to be realized. You know, you 367 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,559 give up your right to punish privately, You give up 368 00:32:16,559 --> 00:32:19,799 your right to make war, you know, and identify criteria 369 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:25,759 for war and to identify you know who, the the 370 00:32:26,039 --> 00:32:30,680 ability to identify private rivals as public enemies. You sacrifice 371 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,359 all of that to the sovereign. And you know, the 372 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:40,759 sovereign his will becomes the collective will of the body politic, 373 00:32:41,519 --> 00:32:44,559 you know, and when he takes action, either as warlord 374 00:32:44,799 --> 00:32:50,640 or as law giver, you know, that is where his 375 00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:55,720 power derives from. You know, this can't be vested in 376 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,000 some abstract assembly, you know, or this can't be reduced 377 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,839 to some sort of procedure that can be executed by 378 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,880 any like council of men or women or by some 379 00:33:06,039 --> 00:33:06,720 random guy. 380 00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 3: You know. 381 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 2: That's uh, that's not how it works, and that's onto 382 00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:18,119 an ontological nullody, you know. And as a consequence of 383 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:25,000 that too, you know, the legislature and the judiciary and 384 00:33:25,319 --> 00:33:30,000 any other branch of government. Sovereignty does not invest in 385 00:33:30,039 --> 00:33:33,359 those branches. So it'd be perverse for a president to 386 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,799 claim or an emperor to claim that he's bound by 387 00:33:36,839 --> 00:33:40,799 the court. Now, part of the essence of sovereignty. A 388 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,480 sovereign can say, I'm gonna forego wielding sovereign power over 389 00:33:45,519 --> 00:33:49,079 this court decision and allow its decision to stand. But 390 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:54,480 this idea that he's not sovereign, you know, a court is, 391 00:33:55,079 --> 00:34:01,920 or a legislature is. That's uh, that's logical perverse, and 392 00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:09,039 it flies in the face of the entire basis of 393 00:34:09,039 --> 00:34:12,880 of of sovereign authority, you know, both the theory of 394 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,400 it and its practice. And this, incidentally, is one reason 395 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,280 why America makes no sense post Wartergate, because basically it's 396 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:25,920 being alleged, you know, and you can't you can't declare 397 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:31,800 that three hundred million people decided that John Roberts or 398 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,239 Elaine Kagan, you know, represents the body politic and it 399 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,400 is some sovereign authority, you know, like I'm being I'm 400 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,920 being obtuse. But you know, the point is valid, you know, 401 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,079 And that's why it's not an accident, and it's it's 402 00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:56,039 not some contrivance of you know, horse trading or something 403 00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:59,519 at the original constitutional convention that the President of United 404 00:34:59,559 --> 00:35:07,800 States the only nationally elected representative. You know, this is uh, 405 00:35:08,119 --> 00:35:13,599 the lineage from from Hobbes to the founding of the 406 00:35:13,679 --> 00:35:19,440 United States is more proximate and in conceptual linear terms 407 00:35:19,519 --> 00:35:20,800 direct than people think. 408 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 3: Okay. 409 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 2: And also, what preceded Hobbes's identification of a geometry of 410 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:41,320 politics was an understanding whether again, whether I or any 411 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,760 other man accepts this or not, was an understanding that 412 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:52,599 was extant at the time of Leviathan being devised and written, 413 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,719 that there was a science of the law, and you know, 414 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,119 a science of equity. 415 00:35:58,360 --> 00:35:58,559 Speaker 3: You know. 416 00:36:00,599 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 2: So Hobbes is defining the social contract in legal terms, 417 00:36:08,119 --> 00:36:19,039 and the Commonwealth was defined in terms of legal personhood, 418 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:25,480 and Hobbs takes it a step further, and you know, 419 00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:29,599 again owing to the fact that if there is in 420 00:36:29,679 --> 00:36:35,360 fact a political geometry that can be discovered, the architecture 421 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:44,719 of which is what facilitates, you know, the the permanent 422 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:49,960 peace within the body politic and the psychological acceptance a 423 00:36:50,079 --> 00:36:55,119 sovereign authority, you know, according to the terms contained within 424 00:36:55,159 --> 00:36:58,920 it intrinderic to the laws of nature. You know, obviously 425 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,440 this derives from the same basis as the science of 426 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,639 the law. And there's got to be not just a 427 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:13,320 theoretical agreement, there's got to be actual practice there that comports. 428 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 3: With both. 429 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 2: Conceptual structures, you know, not not just for the appearance 430 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:29,000 of harmony, but for the actual harmonious exercise or execution 431 00:37:29,159 --> 00:37:36,079 or rather of these things. Give me one a second. 432 00:37:36,119 --> 00:37:45,400 Let me see what time we've got. Okay, So, the 433 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,719 social contract is the basis of. 434 00:37:50,599 --> 00:37:51,760 Speaker 3: Political order. 435 00:37:54,480 --> 00:38:01,079 Speaker 2: Facilitated by sovereign authority, you know, which can only which 436 00:38:01,079 --> 00:38:06,639 can only be derivative of, you know, a consensus among 437 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:12,400 the body politic and the criteria for who in what 438 00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:15,639 concerts the body politic is important to, especially in the 439 00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:24,079 present day when these concepts are deliberately accusecated or simply 440 00:38:24,199 --> 00:38:27,480 just not defined other than the most abstracted terms. But 441 00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:32,599 we'll probably have to get to that next time. The 442 00:38:32,679 --> 00:38:40,400 social contract has two components. According to Hobbes, what is 443 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:47,360 a covenant each member of the body politic. The initial 444 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:57,239 founding act of you know, the creation of Leviathan is 445 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:02,119 a covenant between in each member of the body politic 446 00:39:03,639 --> 00:39:06,760 to acknowledge, you know, an intent to create a civil 447 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,320 society presided over by a man or a body of men, 448 00:39:12,559 --> 00:39:16,719 as long as these people, you know, are discreetly identifiable 449 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:23,039 in whom absolute sovereignty is to vest. Okay, And this 450 00:39:23,199 --> 00:39:28,519 is critical because this is a kind of ascending authority, 451 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,199 you know, like a sovereign him deciding, you know, what 452 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:43,480 the criteria are suisponte that facilitates his authority. That's that 453 00:39:43,639 --> 00:39:48,159 that that's that's tyrannical, but it's also a logical fallacy. 454 00:39:48,199 --> 00:39:54,400 That's not how it works, you know, Or a sovereign 455 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:59,079 deciding that he wants the body politic to include more 456 00:39:59,199 --> 00:40:03,320 people than it us, you know, based on criteria that 457 00:40:03,559 --> 00:40:06,440 will not be accepted by the actual body politic. 458 00:40:07,519 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 3: You know. 459 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 2: Again, that's that's not just the tyrannical dictad but it's 460 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,800 also it's it's it's also at odds. It frustrates the 461 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:24,480 purpose of the entire procedure, and it contradicts the laws 462 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,360 of nature that give rise to political authority in the 463 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:36,000 first place. But moving on, the second component of the 464 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,519 social contract is quite literally the vote determining who were 465 00:40:40,599 --> 00:40:43,079 what is to be the sovereign. We're talking about the 466 00:40:43,159 --> 00:40:47,719 vote in somewhat metaphorical terms, some act of decisionism, some 467 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:53,000 formal act of decisionism that represents the convenants and the 468 00:40:53,079 --> 00:40:59,440 compact between each member of the body politic to acknowledge 469 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:08,840 the sovereign authority, the person of the sovereign. Now, how 470 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,119 that person is chosen, you know, how that man is 471 00:41:12,159 --> 00:41:18,280 invested with that authority. That can take like what due 472 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,679 process constitutions for those purposes, can take any number of forms. 473 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:27,440 It's not that there's not some hard and fast paradigm 474 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,760 instead of criteria by which that has to be conducted. 475 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,840 Save you know again that it reflects, you know, an 476 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:45,280 extent and actual and verifiable covenant that is accepted by 477 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:50,519 you know, each party to that compact. What presumably would 478 00:41:50,559 --> 00:41:56,000 be you know, like adult men of full majority, capable 479 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,320 of bearing arms, but that we're gonna go ahead of ourselves. 480 00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 3: But you know, and. 481 00:42:08,679 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 2: Presuming a true consensus, you know, not just a raw 482 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,920 majority of fifty one forty nine percent, but presuming that 483 00:42:19,119 --> 00:42:27,559 there's an actual cohesiveness and this covenant is accepted, you know, 484 00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:32,239 by something more I would think than a supermajority would 485 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:40,760 be the criteria by which legitimacy attaches. But the people 486 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,599 who are outside of the covenant and who refuse to 487 00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:50,679 avail themselves to the contract, you know, people who are 488 00:42:50,679 --> 00:42:56,480 an open revolt against it, they remain in the state 489 00:42:56,519 --> 00:42:59,639 of war according to the laws of nature, and thus 490 00:42:59,679 --> 00:43:08,360 they come the enemies of the body politic okay, and 491 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:09,440 that's manageable. 492 00:43:11,679 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 3: You know. 493 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 2: It begs the question as to what what what ratio 494 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:21,719 kinds it is a tipping point and to civil war. 495 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:30,639 But that's somewhat tautological. You know, that consensus is uh 496 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,280 kind of like what's in for purposes of the social contract. 497 00:43:35,639 --> 00:43:38,199 It's probably kind of like what the Supreme Court said 498 00:43:38,199 --> 00:43:41,960 about pornography, like you know it when you see it, 499 00:43:43,559 --> 00:43:52,480 you know, but this is why you know again, and 500 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:55,840 we won't have time to get to this in this episode. 501 00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:00,639 But Hobbes very much believed that there had to be 502 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,280 there had to be a basic homogeneity within the body politic, 503 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:12,639 at least in terms of moral agreement, because you can't 504 00:44:13,119 --> 00:44:15,280 you can't have a third of the body body politic 505 00:44:17,079 --> 00:44:21,880 saying that they'll abide the Covenant. But with these qualifications, 506 00:44:22,559 --> 00:44:26,440 you know, because you know, and and they'll reject certain 507 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,480 affroative criteria on grounds that you know, they worship a 508 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,880 different god or that you know they they don't accept 509 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:41,840 certain parameters that the majority does of what is you know, 510 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,079 properly within the scope of sovereign authority, you know, based 511 00:44:45,119 --> 00:44:54,880 on a sectarian objection, you know, And that's why Hobbs 512 00:44:55,320 --> 00:45:01,960 goes out of his way in Leviathan to make clear 513 00:45:02,039 --> 00:45:05,679 that the sovereign has the authority to ban or censor, 514 00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:09,400 you know, matters of religious belief. You know, not not 515 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,920 because he's the pope or not because you know he 516 00:45:13,039 --> 00:45:17,559 has any legitimate authority to regulate men's and your witness 517 00:45:17,679 --> 00:45:23,599 and their consciences. But if people arrive or if people 518 00:45:23,679 --> 00:45:29,960 take on, you know, a sectarian belief structure contra the majority, 519 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,559 you know that you're sowing the seeds of civil war, 520 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:46,519 and you're allowing yourself, as part of the minority faction, 521 00:45:48,079 --> 00:45:54,119 a sort of repudiation device whereby you can return to 522 00:45:54,159 --> 00:45:58,079 the state of war if it suits you, based on 523 00:45:58,119 --> 00:46:07,519 appeal to a theological preference, you know, And that that 524 00:46:07,519 --> 00:46:13,400 that puts the a private right of war into the 525 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,079 hands of a minority element of the body politic. And again, 526 00:46:17,119 --> 00:46:26,960 a sovereign can't surrender his sovereignty. That's that's, you know, 527 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,519 a self refuting postulate, you know, and it contradicts the 528 00:46:31,599 --> 00:46:33,679 essential nature of what we're talking about. 529 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:52,199 Speaker 3: But you know, and there's no suggesting that. 530 00:46:53,639 --> 00:46:58,639 Speaker 2: The essence of sovereignty is fear and the ability to 531 00:46:58,639 --> 00:46:59,320 to kill. 532 00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:03,079 Speaker 3: That makes people queasy. 533 00:47:03,159 --> 00:47:07,840 Speaker 2: And the lowercase liberal objection to that is that, well, 534 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:17,280 you know, the dignity of the individual and the dignity 535 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,719 of the group and individual belongs to must be honored 536 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,599 and compliance can't be based on fear. But all compliance 537 00:47:24,639 --> 00:47:28,920 is based on fear. Like again, men are sinners and 538 00:47:29,119 --> 00:47:34,239 avarice is the norm. You can't rely upon invisible power 539 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,760 and men's inner witness to make them abide political authority. 540 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,920 That's preposterous. We're not talking about hobbs and not talking 541 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:50,159 about rather what is actually virtuous and what is aspirational. 542 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:56,039 He's saying that coded into nature, there are literally natural 543 00:47:56,119 --> 00:48:02,239 laws of power politicians. The political is a discrete sphere 544 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:09,079 of human activity, the subject matter of which is violence 545 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,320 and power derived from violence and the threat of violence. 546 00:48:14,039 --> 00:48:20,000 And according to this geometry, this literal geometry, the only 547 00:48:20,079 --> 00:48:25,000 way that a sovereign can perpetuate itself or himself, because 548 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:30,800 it's literally a person we're talking about, is by resort 549 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:38,320 to the power of life and death and inculcating members 550 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:43,400 of the body politic who, despite their initial consent or 551 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,800 that of their sires which they inherited and moral as 552 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:57,039 well as ontological terms, the only thing that truly prevents 553 00:48:57,079 --> 00:49:09,920 them from resorting to acts derived from destructive ambition is 554 00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,360 the fact that they will they will be murdered if 555 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:17,719 they rise up against the sovereign. That's not to say 556 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:22,360 that there's there there are no remedies before the government, 557 00:49:22,519 --> 00:49:26,000 or that a sovereign cannot lose his mandate, but he 558 00:49:26,079 --> 00:49:30,039 cannot lose it when acting lawfully and within the scope 559 00:49:30,079 --> 00:49:34,800 of his authority. Some cadre of men simply decide that 560 00:49:35,519 --> 00:49:38,920 they don't want to obey his dictps anymore, or that 561 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,719 they want to seize power for themselves based on a 562 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:52,440 sectarian imperative or and ideological rationale, you know, And people 563 00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:57,039 confuse those things, especially because one of the reasons why 564 00:49:57,119 --> 00:50:03,519 the what I think is the conception syntax of political 565 00:50:03,559 --> 00:50:06,639 theory in the twentieth century, and we're very much mired 566 00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:12,119 in that paradigm conceptually. But the reason that's a poisonous 567 00:50:12,199 --> 00:50:17,920 because it exclusively derives from moralizing language, you know, even 568 00:50:18,199 --> 00:50:22,480 that which is nominally atheist or purports to be a science. 569 00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:31,320 You know, it's it's just endless moral postulating. And there's 570 00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,079 something rather profound there. I mean, yeah, part of it 571 00:50:35,119 --> 00:50:39,079 is just kind of like the vulgarization of discourse and things, obviously, 572 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:45,000 and the breakdown of the majority and consensus, such that 573 00:50:45,159 --> 00:50:50,079 all discursive language aims to agitate certain segments of the 574 00:50:50,079 --> 00:50:54,760 body politic, you know, and and to exploit these sorts 575 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:58,639 of divisions. It's all those things. But it's more than that, 576 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:04,360 you know it. And one of the reasons why I 577 00:51:04,519 --> 00:51:09,760 view the return of general religiosity as a corrective is 578 00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,599 because a lot of I just described, I believe it's 579 00:51:12,679 --> 00:51:23,800 born of you know, a kind of moral impoverishment from 580 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:28,599 religious quarters where moral education should be emanating obviously, you know, 581 00:51:28,639 --> 00:51:32,360 in the absence of that countlessly or not, the people 582 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,360 look at public authority as a source of those things 583 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:37,639 or what should be, you know, perverses that may be. 584 00:51:38,519 --> 00:51:41,960 It's sort of an an important a storm sort of thing. 585 00:51:43,119 --> 00:51:45,440 But but yeah, we'll get it next time. We'll get 586 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:55,440 into Hobbes's view of of Christ and things. But you know, 587 00:51:55,519 --> 00:51:59,960 and that's so, to be clear, there are a remedy. 588 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:06,559 He's held not just by the body politic as a collective, 589 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:15,880 but individuals constituents there ran and to be clear, Hobbs viewed, 590 00:52:16,599 --> 00:52:20,920 according to their natural law, the body politic to be 591 00:52:21,119 --> 00:52:26,079 discrete individuals contrasting with one another. This isn't a so 592 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,199 sort of notion of you know, some some sort of 593 00:52:30,199 --> 00:52:35,679 psychological or metaphysical whole that the you know, possessive a 594 00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:41,840 collective will. This is important, okay, And this is one 595 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,519 of the things that defines the angle sex and tradition 596 00:52:45,679 --> 00:52:52,960 contra that of of the continent. Clear, Hobbs absolutely believed 597 00:52:53,000 --> 00:53:02,480 in precise remedies contra sovereign authority, you know, But he 598 00:53:02,599 --> 00:53:06,519 viewed as these things. But he viewed these things as 599 00:53:06,559 --> 00:53:14,119 one would controversy in mathematics or in science, you know, 600 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:20,679 So the emergence of political hostility at scale, it had 601 00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:27,159 to be resolved through resort to precise variables deduced from 602 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:33,199 the social contract, the law, which itself is derived from 603 00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:38,599 natural laws, you know, and the rights and duties of 604 00:53:38,639 --> 00:53:46,639 the sovereign and his obligation to those subjugated, and you know, 605 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:52,760 in kind the rights, duties and obligations of the subjects 606 00:53:54,199 --> 00:54:00,559 to the sovereign, you know, and to one another. So 607 00:54:02,679 --> 00:54:07,239 this idea that well, revolution just happens, you know, or 608 00:54:07,639 --> 00:54:10,679 there's a lifespan of every government, and you know, we've 609 00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,440 we've got to just accept that civil war, like all war, 610 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:18,760 arrives like the seasons. Hobbs projected that outright, you know, 611 00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,239 he's he posited that it was. It would be tantamount 612 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,559 to stating that there there's an equation that simply can't 613 00:54:25,559 --> 00:54:29,559 be answered, you know, where there's some or an engineering 614 00:54:29,559 --> 00:54:33,079 a bridge, there's there's just no way to you know, 615 00:54:33,159 --> 00:54:39,760 devise a proper load bearing beam, you know. And again, uh, 616 00:54:40,679 --> 00:54:48,679 I don't accept that ontology, but it's internally consistent, and 617 00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:50,639 don't gonna me wrong. Hobb is one of the most 618 00:54:50,639 --> 00:54:58,159 disciplined and methodical the political theorists whoever lived. Like he absolutely. 619 00:54:59,360 --> 00:54:59,840 Speaker 3: This was. 620 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:06,679 Speaker 2: This truly was like a complete conceptual structure, you know, 621 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,159 like from inception. But even if it wasn't, you know, 622 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,639 the internal consistency has to be sustained before it to. 623 00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:22,920 Speaker 3: Hold any merit, you know, So even if you. 624 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:31,000 Speaker 2: Reject the substance of these postulates, there's really no other 625 00:55:31,119 --> 00:55:39,039 criteria that could sustain the paradigm, you know, other than 626 00:55:39,079 --> 00:55:50,400 this kind of mathematical model that almost that that almost 627 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:59,679 parallels Newtonian physics, if that makes any sense. But I'm 628 00:55:59,679 --> 00:56:01,920 gonna I did here he's heard about fifty five minutes, 629 00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,519 and I'm going to change gears a bit. I hope 630 00:56:04,559 --> 00:56:06,719 this isn't going on too long again. I I don't 631 00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:11,440 want to discuss angle anglophone philosophy and conin philosophy series. 632 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:13,599 Speaker 3: But as we move on, like you'll see why I 633 00:56:13,679 --> 00:56:14,079 did this. 634 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:18,360 Speaker 2: And I didn't want to start talking about I don't 635 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:22,719 want to start talking about cont or Schmidt and make 636 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,960 reference to Hobbes and then have to, you know, kind 637 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:30,280 of drop a capsule summary of these street concepts and things. 638 00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:35,360 But I hope people are getting something valuable out of 639 00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,760 this from the feedback we got at OGC told me 640 00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:40,840 that they were because it got a lot of crops, 641 00:56:41,199 --> 00:56:43,400 and that makes me very happy. 642 00:56:44,079 --> 00:56:48,760 Speaker 1: Well, anyone who's wondering why you would cover Hobbes Paul 643 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,280 Gottfried's book, it's his textbook. I think he taught school, 644 00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,079 taught college course with it on. Schmidt is basically all 645 00:56:56,079 --> 00:56:57,280 about Hobbs. 646 00:56:57,679 --> 00:57:00,119 Speaker 2: Yeah no, I got Freed's a great, a great I 647 00:57:01,119 --> 00:57:05,119 a great thinker like he's I've I I really get 648 00:57:05,159 --> 00:57:07,719 a lot out of his out of his scholarship. 649 00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:09,159 Speaker 3: Yeah no, that's a good point, man. 650 00:57:09,679 --> 00:57:11,519 Speaker 2: I should dig that book out and like Refreshment, recle 651 00:57:11,599 --> 00:57:14,159 leg and Ready years ago and it's it was awesome. 652 00:57:15,079 --> 00:57:17,719 I read After Liberalism lately, which I mean all all 653 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:21,480 Goffred' stuff is compelling. But yeah, I thanks for reminded 654 00:57:21,559 --> 00:57:24,760 me of the Schmidt. I'll dig it up. 655 00:57:25,679 --> 00:57:25,800 Speaker 3: Well. 656 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,159 Speaker 1: A mutual friend of ours talked to Paul Gottfried on 657 00:57:28,239 --> 00:57:31,039 Monday and told him that there was a whole bunch 658 00:57:31,039 --> 00:57:34,719 of young kids running around who were reading Paul, you know, 659 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:40,920 reading him, and his his comment was, I'm I'm glad 660 00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,280 that my friends are getting younger and my enemies are 661 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:43,960 getting older. 662 00:57:45,039 --> 00:57:47,920 Speaker 2: Yeah there's so yeah, yeah, no I I I sympathize. 663 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:54,000 I mean, Goffrey really is old. He's still going, which 664 00:57:54,039 --> 00:57:58,239 is great. But no, I I even in my own life, 665 00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:01,480 I I see that I'm kind of coming to fruition 666 00:58:01,679 --> 00:58:05,159 and yeah, I I take some Frida in it. 667 00:58:06,239 --> 00:58:10,639 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, just plug your plug, your substack 668 00:58:10,679 --> 00:58:12,400 and anything else and we'll get out of here. 669 00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:13,679 Speaker 3: Yeah. 670 00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:18,000 Speaker 2: My online home is substack. It's real Thomas seven seven seven, 671 00:58:18,079 --> 00:58:21,519 that's substack dot com. That's that's like where all the 672 00:58:21,639 --> 00:58:27,079 magic happens and all the felonies happen. But I'm a 673 00:58:27,199 --> 00:58:31,440 I shouted out earlier today, I need a few days 674 00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:35,559 to recover from the road and stuff. But pursuing to 675 00:58:35,599 --> 00:58:39,519 me like restructuring my brand and content, and that's getting 676 00:58:39,559 --> 00:58:43,280 nude from Discord. I decided Rumble is going to be 677 00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:47,320 our home for our weekly live stream this Saturday. I 678 00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:49,599 got a bunch of stuff to do, and I got 679 00:58:49,599 --> 00:58:54,239 a couple social engagements, I mean, relating the partisan stuff, 680 00:58:54,239 --> 00:58:57,639 you know, just like friends of ours I I gotta 681 00:58:57,679 --> 00:59:01,119 connect with. But a week from save we'll start the 682 00:59:01,159 --> 00:59:04,199 stream again. The weekly stream. It will be un rumble, Like, 683 00:59:04,239 --> 00:59:07,599 don't worry. I'm gonna like pin the link where everybody 684 00:59:07,639 --> 00:59:11,159 can find it on the substack and stuff, and you'll 685 00:59:11,159 --> 00:59:14,440 be able to find my other social media platforms through substack. 686 00:59:15,239 --> 00:59:19,239 And I'm restructuring and rebuilding my website in coming weeks. 687 00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:22,519 So but yeah, for now, get up substack. I'm also 688 00:59:22,519 --> 00:59:24,920 on t gram and Instagram. I'm kind of you biquitous. 689 00:59:25,679 --> 00:59:27,920 I'm on YouTube, but like seek and you shall find. 690 00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:31,559 But yeah, for now, find me on substick and we'll 691 00:59:31,599 --> 00:59:33,719 go from there as kind of things grow and development. 692 00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:41,079 Speaker 1: We were doing a stream recording last night about the 693 00:59:41,119 --> 00:59:43,760 OGC at the event and just doing a recap of 694 00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:48,280 the speeches and one of the things Bagbe's speech came up. 695 00:59:48,519 --> 00:59:52,199 And one of the things that I said was I said, 696 00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:57,880 go subscribe to Thomas A's substack the talks that he's 697 00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:02,119 having with Bagbee and then season of mind phaser. You 698 01:00:02,199 --> 01:00:03,920 are going to want to here. 699 01:00:05,679 --> 01:00:06,639 Speaker 3: That's great, Thank you man. 700 01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:12,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I have maybe. Yeah, I'm not you know, 701 01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:15,639 you're my friend. I'm not doing this because you're my friend. 702 01:00:15,679 --> 01:00:18,719 I'm doing this because you people want to hear the conversation. 703 01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:19,559 Speaker 3: That's happening. 704 01:00:21,159 --> 01:00:23,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you man. Yeah, Babies, I mean, Baby's a 705 01:00:23,639 --> 01:00:26,599 dear friend, and yeah, he's a brilliant guy. Man, And uh, 706 01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:29,679 I've been really blessed. Uh, I mean, I'm always blessed 707 01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,400 that you and Jay Burden want to collab with me, 708 01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,840 because you guys always bring a lot of fire. But uh, 709 01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:39,840 Begbie and Josh Neil, like both of them guys are 710 01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,159 super intelligent, and I think we have a good report 711 01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:48,199 like I do when they do. Our subject matter concentrations 712 01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,480 are different, but they dovetail. And yeah, I I owe 713 01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:55,840 both of those guys a tremendous debt. Man John Slaughter too, 714 01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:00,360 he's wrote a great book. Yeah, yeah, I mean he's 715 01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,480 a great dude too. But and he's he's every bit 716 01:01:03,519 --> 01:01:07,079 as intelligent as as these other guys. But I'm very 717 01:01:07,199 --> 01:01:10,320 much a I'm very much a like a theoretical guy, 718 01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:15,320 and and Begbie and Josh Neil really kind of compliment 719 01:01:17,159 --> 01:01:21,159 my subject there concentrations. So yeah, no, that's tremendous man. 720 01:01:21,199 --> 01:01:21,800 Thank you for that. 721 01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:23,719 Speaker 3: Enforcement. Yeah we can. 722 01:01:24,199 --> 01:01:26,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, this weekend is busy, but we can reconvene anytime 723 01:01:27,039 --> 01:01:28,559 next week and continue this series. 724 01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:30,400 Speaker 1: We will, thank you. 725 01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:32,320 Speaker 3: Thomas I appreciate it yea man guys 726 01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:42,360 Speaker 1: H