Speaker 1: You see somethings are going to happen?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 3: What's going to happen?
Speaker 1: What a.
Speaker 4: Welcome to the occult Rejects. This episode, we got a
Speaker 4: very very special guest somebody there that I've been waiting
Speaker 4: to get on this show for a long time. We
Speaker 4: got the Queen of Chaos magic herself. We got Ivy
Speaker 4: And before we get to her, we are going to
Speaker 4: introduce the other rejects that we got on the show today.
Speaker 4: We're going to start it off with Euros. What is
Speaker 4: going on? Eros? How well? You?
Speaker 5: Hey? Nick? Thanks for having me on. Yep. I'm arrows Up.
Speaker 5: You can find me on YouTube at arrows Up and
Speaker 5: you can find me on Twitter at Aeros to Ethos.
Speaker 5: I am a hellenistic architetypal and functional astrologer and I
Speaker 5: do a lot of deep dives into metaphysics.
Speaker 4: Yes, and if you're into Plotinas in the ny Ads,
Speaker 4: go check out her stuff and check out the other
Speaker 4: shows she has that on here, real great workers. Thank you,
Speaker 4: thanks Nick, of course. And we got my man, Jena Ninja.
Speaker 4: What is going on?
Speaker 3: Freda? What is going on?
Speaker 6: Boss?
Speaker 2: Mister ninety three? Okay, So I'm Jena Ninja. I've retired
Speaker 2: the Ninja for a little bit, but you can see
Speaker 2: mgin so. You can follow me on Twitter at Wukong Reborn,
Speaker 2: wuk O and g Reborn. You can check out my
Speaker 2: show at Threshold Saints on ig and as well as
Speaker 2: ex Twitter, and you can check out The Gray Lodge
Speaker 2: at the True Gray Lodge dot com the t r
Speaker 2: ve Gray Lodge dot com as well as our YouTube
Speaker 2: like and subscribe you can check us out. We're all
Speaker 2: caught up, so all of our X recordings are now
Speaker 2: uploaded on YouTube so you can hear are like hundreds
Speaker 2: of hours of speculative specula of narcissism and uh sort
Speaker 2: of you know, speculative aonic work basically.
Speaker 3: So thank you guys so much. I'm really excited.
Speaker 2: I'm Nick knows that I'm started out as a little
Speaker 2: bit of a chaos magician myself, so this is exactly
Speaker 2: like the person that I want to speak to.
Speaker 3: So thank you so much, Ivy, and thank you to
Speaker 3: the crew.
Speaker 4: Thank you for making it Jen of course, and we
Speaker 4: got my man Ethan Indigo. What is going on, sir?
Speaker 3: How are you peace?
Speaker 7: Thanks so much for putting this together, Nick and everyone
Speaker 7: glad to be with you. As always, Ethan Indigo Smith
Speaker 7: easy to find on all the social media and I
Speaker 7: got a few books out there even on Amazon, again
Speaker 7: easy to find, and frequently writing writing articles and so forth.
Speaker 7: And really appreciate you being here, Ivey.
Speaker 4: Thank you for making it Ethan. I know you had
Speaker 4: stuff going on and you made it happen anyway, appreciate
Speaker 4: it so and last, but not least, before we get
Speaker 4: to Ivy, we got the Headless Giant himself. What is
Speaker 4: going on, sir? How are you?
Speaker 3: How you doing?
Speaker 8: You can find me on x and on YouTube at
Speaker 8: the Headless Giant, and I have a show with Ethan
Speaker 8: that we just got done wrapping up here a little
Speaker 8: while ago, called the Trialogues, and also with a Ricardo
Speaker 8: and on Mondays. We've got an Alchemy Monday coming up
Speaker 8: where we're going to break out the socksle it and
Speaker 8: actually go through how it works and make a little
Speaker 8: video about that. And I've also got a show where
Speaker 8: you can send me your occult slash paranormal experiences at
Speaker 8: the Headless Giant podcast at gmail dot com and me
Speaker 8: and Nick read those out on Thursday nights. So if
Speaker 8: you send us your address, we will send you some stickers,
Speaker 8: so send those stories into us Headless Giant podcast at
Speaker 8: gmail dot com.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Yeah, definitely. If you have any stories, please
Speaker 4: don't forget to put in your information. I will send
Speaker 4: out stickers and just a reminder too. On top of
Speaker 4: Hellas's busy podcasting schedule by the middle of November, hopefully.
Speaker 4: I think I think we decided on a Tuesday or
Speaker 4: whatever day it is, we should and this will probably
Speaker 4: keep me busy for the next three to five years podcasting.
Speaker 4: We should be yeah, we should. We're going to be
Speaker 4: going through Alistair Crowley's seven seven seven, so keep an
Speaker 4: eye out for that. That should be fun and interesting.
Speaker 4: Now finally, before finally to the U to the guest
Speaker 4: after don't know five minutes, four minutes already, Ivy, before
Speaker 4: I introduce you, I do want to I guess you know, yeah,
Speaker 4: fanboy you a little bit. You know, this is somebody
Speaker 4: I look up to in the ecult community, and I
Speaker 4: do think she has a lot of a lot of
Speaker 4: good stuff out there for people. And one thing I
Speaker 4: do want to highly stress is uh, I might screw
Speaker 4: up the name because it's been a minute, but I
Speaker 4: think it was that to eight lessons for a beginning
Speaker 4: ceremonial magician. I highly if people are really interested into
Speaker 4: that stuff, are getting into it, or want to know
Speaker 4: what's entailed in it. I have listened to other people's stuff,
Speaker 4: you know, even David Shoemaker, another person who I think
Speaker 4: has great, uh you know, advice for a beginner. That
Speaker 4: video she put out, I think is fucking amazing because
Speaker 4: she does even tie in science into this stuff, and
Speaker 4: that is one of the reasons why I even wanted
Speaker 4: her on the show, because she does look at the
Speaker 4: occult in different ways. In some ways the way I do,
Speaker 4: you know, a little bit of academic, a little bit
Speaker 4: of science, and just for me, the way she words
Speaker 4: it and the way she does that episode, I highly
Speaker 4: suggest to check that out if you're interested in this stuff.
Speaker 4: I don't think anybody could have said it any better.
Speaker 4: So finally, after I'm done blah blah blah and about Ivy, Ivy,
Speaker 4: please let everybody know who you are, what your deal is,
Speaker 4: and where people can find your stuff.
Speaker 6: Sure, well, thank you all for having me on the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm really excited because I've been listening to quite a
Speaker 1: few of your episodes and I think you just got
Speaker 1: you have such a unique structure with all the different
Speaker 1: things that you're doing, and Nick, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for that introduction.
Speaker 6: I hope I live up to that hype.
Speaker 1: But no, I just well, I like to tell people
Speaker 1: I'm just a girl on the internet, so queen of chaos. No,
Speaker 1: there are so many other amazing chaotes out there that
Speaker 1: are doing some fantastic stuff. I'm just really passionate about
Speaker 1: chaos magic and I talk about it a lot, so
Speaker 1: I think people are like, oh, that's the chaos girl,
Speaker 1: Let's talk to her about chaos magic.
Speaker 6: So anyways, I'm Ivy.
Speaker 1: You might know me as iv the Occultist on YouTube
Speaker 1: and on Instagram, and I recently just wrote a book. Actually,
Speaker 1: I've been published twice now. The first book was actually
Speaker 1: with Peter Carroll, which is considered, you know, one of
Speaker 1: the founders of chaos magic. So I wrote an essay
Speaker 1: with him and a couple other chaos magicians in a
Speaker 1: chaos magic anthology, kind of showcasing where chaos magic is today.
Speaker 1: So that just came out this last July, which was
Speaker 1: super exciting to be able to work with Peter Carroll.
Speaker 1: Oh man, I fangirled so hard. It was really really cool.
Speaker 1: I loved it. And then my first solo book is
Speaker 1: coming out this next February. It's called Chaos Magic, a
Speaker 1: Complete Beginner's Guide, and it really is, I mean, a
Speaker 1: guide for the absolute complete beginner. I have found that
Speaker 1: a lot of the Chaos Magic books that are written
Speaker 1: already kind of assume that you have at least some
Speaker 1: sort of occult knowledge, and they were I mean, if
Speaker 1: we think of like liber Nol and Psychonaut and even
Speaker 1: Condensed Chaos, those ones were written by people that would
Speaker 1: assume that maybe you're coming out of a ceremonial magic scene,
Speaker 1: or you at least have some understanding of magic and
Speaker 1: the occult.
Speaker 6: But there isn't really.
Speaker 1: Anything that fits the gap for an absolute beginner coming
Speaker 1: into the occult for the very first time and needing
Speaker 1: to know their ABC's.
Speaker 6: So that's kind of what my book is about.
Speaker 1: It's structured with theory and praxis, so you get a
Speaker 1: little bit of both. But yeah, I just make random
Speaker 1: videos on the Internet and some people like it, some
Speaker 1: people hate it, and it is what it is because
Speaker 1: there's trolls and that's fine, but that's me, I guess. Oh,
Speaker 1: and I'm a science person, so for my day job.
Speaker 6: I'm a little bit of a labrat.
Speaker 1: So yeah, as Nick said, I do try to incorporate
Speaker 1: academia and some scientific perspectives by way of psychology in
Speaker 1: my ritual magic.
Speaker 6: So I think that covers everything. I don't know, We're
Speaker 6: going to go through it all, So that's my little feel.
Speaker 4: I think that was great. I think you summed it
Speaker 4: up great.
Speaker 3: So far cool.
Speaker 4: Did anybody have anything to ask or say before I
Speaker 4: start to continue going on, I have a quick question.
Speaker 2: So Ivy, one of my co hosts from the Gray
Speaker 2: Lodge Solar Ex I'll shout him out, who has been
Speaker 2: on the show and I were discussing about how a
Speaker 2: lot of chaos magic is very popular among a lot
Speaker 2: of left or contemporary Left hand Path practitioners because it
Speaker 2: is kind of a breaking away of the ceremonial confines
Speaker 2: you can say, which, of course, they kind of love.
Speaker 2: So do you have any thoughts on this or like
Speaker 2: sort of more chaot perspectives on why so many so
Speaker 2: many people in like the American modern occult scene have
Speaker 2: a sort of I'm not saying ceremonial magic is bad
Speaker 2: in any way. I'm just saying that they've a lot
Speaker 2: of them have left and sort of embraced some of
Speaker 2: these more chaos magic principles. Don Web of course number
Speaker 2: one maybe, but I don't think he's the only one.
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, like Toby Chappel's talking about this,
Speaker 2: I mean a lot of them are who's also been
Speaker 2: on the shows.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I'm not a left hand practitioner myself,
Speaker 1: but I do have friends that are both chaos magicians
Speaker 1: and left hand practitioner. And I think if we think
Speaker 1: about the definitions of like the right hand path versus
Speaker 1: the left hand path, I know this is a whole
Speaker 1: philosophical discussion that we could have forever, but there usually is,
Speaker 1: like the right hand path, there is this level of
Speaker 1: institutionalized dogma, and with the left hand path there usually
Speaker 1: is not. At least you know, the friends that I
Speaker 1: speak to, there seems to be this rejection of dogma,
Speaker 1: and that really kind of coincides with one of the
Speaker 1: core axioms of chaos magic theory, which is the avoidance
Speaker 1: of dogmatism and really kind of paving your own way.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 1: It's all about individuality, creativity, freedom, doing what works and
Speaker 1: discarding what doesn't. And then there's a certain rebellious nature
Speaker 1: to chaos magic, so I could see how left hand
Speaker 1: path practitioners who really are aligned with that rebellious spirit
Speaker 1: would kind of fall in line with chaos magic principles,
Speaker 1: Whereas you know, a right hand path practitioner is going
Speaker 1: to be more focused on the institution, the community.
Speaker 6: The righteous path.
Speaker 1: Maybe asceticism is incorporated into the things that they're doing,
Speaker 1: and that's very opposite to what chaos magic preaches, because
Speaker 1: it's pragmatic. You discard what works, and you are you
Speaker 1: discard what doesn't work.
Speaker 6: And then you keep what does.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, I know a lot of chaos
Speaker 1: magicians that are not interested at all on the left
Speaker 1: hand path though too, so I think it's just like
Speaker 1: a mixed bag.
Speaker 6: But I guess that's what I would say. I don't
Speaker 6: know what do you think about that.
Speaker 2: I mean, for me, everything that you said, pragmatism number one,
Speaker 2: being able to flexibility in your frameworks, this is all
Speaker 2: very tonentric ideas. Like I consider myself a middle path
Speaker 2: practitioner myself, so I'm neither on extreme of like asceticism
Speaker 2: or left hand path, but I definitely will draw from
Speaker 2: both and draw from like both institutional and sort of
Speaker 2: like independent ideas from both of those things. But I'm
Speaker 2: pretty traditional myself, but everything you're saying is in accordance
Speaker 2: with contrac So for me, I agree one hundred percent.
Speaker 3: I guess it's just like it's I think people are.
Speaker 2: I think people have sort of lost the okay, so
Speaker 2: I'll just I'll be really honest. I think a lot
Speaker 2: of the institutional frames have sort of lost the magic
Speaker 2: or at least in people's imaginary, and so they don't
Speaker 2: necessarily contain like the ritual formulations. Like Nick talks about
Speaker 2: this with the oto, like, yeah, you can walk through
Speaker 2: the Gnostic Mass, and yeah, maybe you get like a
Speaker 2: little spark here and there and you know, illuminate something,
Speaker 2: But as soon as soon as the mass is done,
Speaker 2: it's done. It's like, you know, you might get a
Speaker 2: little spark, but you're not, like if you want to
Speaker 2: use cabostical lang, you're not going to death or anything.
Speaker 2: So I think that people sort of recognize that there's
Speaker 2: a kind of emptiness in the ritual. And I'm not
Speaker 2: using emptiness in the Buddhist way, but maybe emptiness in
Speaker 2: the more functional way where it's like you're not really
Speaker 2: gaining that much. So I think people are more interested
Speaker 2: in these processes. I would call them a consciousness and
Speaker 2: sort of how to make magic work in these pragmatic
Speaker 2: confines of our minds as well as our everyday material lives.
Speaker 6: I would agree with that.
Speaker 1: I think there's a level of being an adversary too,
Speaker 1: going back to the rebellious spirit, because a left hand
Speaker 1: path practitioner is going to be working potentially with adversaries,
Speaker 1: you know, those types of spirits, or maybe they are
Speaker 1: the adversary.
Speaker 6: They see themselves that way.
Speaker 1: And with chaos magicians, I think there's a similar energy
Speaker 1: there because it kind of looks at ceremonial magic and
Speaker 1: scoffs a little bit and says, we don't need these
Speaker 1: long arduous ceremonies. That's all bullshit. We can just cut
Speaker 1: all of this out and get to the meat and
Speaker 1: potatoes of what actually works. So yeah, no, it definitely
Speaker 1: makes sense to what you said.
Speaker 2: I just want to say that I'm a I'm a
Speaker 2: I'm a I call myself true neutral, but I am
Speaker 2: a bit of a trickster. Like I definitely have that element,
Speaker 2: but I'm not I'm not like evil for evil's sake.
Speaker 3: So let me just say that.
Speaker 1: To continue, No, I could resonate with you on that
Speaker 1: trickster spirit here too.
Speaker 6: I'm not you know, I'm not like evil, but you
Speaker 6: know I like to function up? So oh can I swear?
Speaker 4: Okay?
Speaker 6: You didn't know if I could or not? So okay, good,
Speaker 6: You're good.
Speaker 4: There's like a few questions I want to ask you.
Speaker 4: I do want to kind of, I guess. I guess
Speaker 4: at some point get like what brought you even into
Speaker 4: the occult? But if you can for the listeners, you know,
Speaker 4: because my podcast is very like you know, there's people
Speaker 4: who are into the stuff and people who really don't
Speaker 4: know anything about it, could you give the listeners an
Speaker 4: idea of what your idea of chaos magic is.
Speaker 1: Sure, well, that's a loaded question, first of all. And
Speaker 1: my definition changes every single day.
Speaker 4: So that's good though, I think that my opinion I've said,
Speaker 4: if you're a magician and your ideas, if things keep
Speaker 4: staying the same, something the fuck's wrong.
Speaker 6: Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1: I mean, even after writing a book, I still go
Speaker 1: back and read what I wrote and then one day
Speaker 1: I'll disagree with you.
Speaker 4: I wish I could change.
Speaker 1: So it's so tough, but I did say in the
Speaker 1: introduction of my book that ten years from now, I
Speaker 1: could disagree with everything that I've written in this book,
Speaker 1: and that is chaos magic. Okay, so at least I've
Speaker 1: covered my bases there and we're all good. But no,
Speaker 1: chaos magic is a post modern magical practice or kind
Speaker 1: of a philosophy and a perspective on how magic works.
Speaker 1: So a lot of people will initially think of chaos
Speaker 1: magic and see sigils, hyper sigils, magical entities, all of
Speaker 1: these things that are so chaos magic. But I would
Speaker 1: actually argue that those things are not intrinsically chaos magic. Yes,
Speaker 1: a lot of chaos magicians will do sigils and hyper
Speaker 1: sigils and work with servitors and such, but anybody from
Speaker 1: any occult practice can really utilize those techniques. What really
Speaker 1: identifies a chaos magician is someone who prescribes to chaos
Speaker 1: magic theory, and chaos magic theory kind of combines a
Speaker 1: bunch of different things, so one of the core axioms.
Speaker 1: And when I say this, I say it very loosely
Speaker 1: because there's really no rules and no limitations to a
Speaker 1: chaos magic practice, and it really does reject dogma. So
Speaker 1: there is kind of a conundrum in itself because as
Speaker 1: we try to define chaos magic, chaos magic doesn't like
Speaker 1: to be defined and it doesn't prescribe to dogma. So
Speaker 1: there is a little bit of an issue in even
Speaker 1: defining it in the first place. But one of the
Speaker 1: core axioms is using your belief as a tool to
Speaker 1: manifest the things that you want and to manipulate your reality.
Speaker 1: So whether something is a objectively real or not is
Speaker 1: completely irrelevant. If you can use it in your occult
Speaker 1: practice to make change in your life, then that works,
Speaker 1: and that's what we're going to do as chas magicians.
Speaker 1: An example that I always like to give is with gods.
Speaker 1: For example, I am dedicated to both. I know that
Speaker 1: some people pronounce it tough thought, you know, there's a
Speaker 1: million different pronunciations, but yeah, exactly, and there's really no
Speaker 1: right or wrong way.
Speaker 6: But both is what feels best to my mouth when
Speaker 6: I'm chanting it in rituals. Yeah, yeah, so I just
Speaker 6: say both.
Speaker 1: But so in working with this deity, is this god
Speaker 1: objectively real? Is it an actual Egyptian god that exists
Speaker 1: in some upper or lower world or another realm or
Speaker 1: Is it perhaps an aggregre just a thought form that
Speaker 1: we have fed all of our beliefs and ideas into
Speaker 1: being real or is it nothing at all? Is it
Speaker 1: a psychological archetype who cares? Because at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, chaos magician really prescribes to it's your belief
Speaker 1: in that thing that matters, not necessarily whether that god
Speaker 1: is real or not. So it doesn't matter if both
Speaker 1: is real or not. If I'm dedicated to Thoth and
Speaker 1: I'm doing ritual with both and I'm seeing results manifest
Speaker 1: in my material reality, that is what matters. So it's
Speaker 1: very pragmatic. We discard what doesn't work and we keep
Speaker 1: what does. And then there's other aspects of chaos magic
Speaker 1: theory as well. There's gnosis. You know, we're working with
Speaker 1: gnostic states, deconditioning the mind. Again, the avoidance of dogmatism,
Speaker 1: because there is this idea that dogmatism is it imposes
Speaker 1: rigidity on the mind and it prevents you from tapping
Speaker 1: into your creativity and your individual freedom. So again going
Speaker 1: back to that rebellious spirit and kind of rejecting institutionalized
Speaker 1: dogma that we were talking about. But yeah, does that
Speaker 1: answer the question I mean, I feel like I could
Speaker 1: go on and on about what chaos magic is, but
Speaker 1: that's my brief.
Speaker 6: I guess.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I like that. It's interesting how you like you
Speaker 4: said something were about like not being a like for me.
Speaker 4: I use chaos magic at one point, but I was
Speaker 4: never a chaos magician. I would never have said that.
Speaker 4: I was a ceremonial magician and who It's interesting. It's
Speaker 4: funny how like the way you just explained things like
Speaker 4: I was like a mix of both, how I was
Speaker 4: very much a ceremonial magician who still liked kind of
Speaker 4: the rigid rules and incorporated the ideas of how chaos magic,
Speaker 4: sigils and all that stuff was made. I just incorporated
Speaker 4: that into my ceremony instead of me using planetary squares now,
Speaker 4: I'm just you, you know, designing them myselves from taking
Speaker 4: the letters out of the phrases, you know, or I
Speaker 4: might be meditating now on the sigil and stuff like
Speaker 4: that during my ritual. But uh, yeah, I find it
Speaker 4: interesting how like you really did kind of like you
Speaker 4: really split it up really well, I think with those
Speaker 4: two because I see how I was a combination of both,
Speaker 4: you know, and I and I and I find it
Speaker 4: interesting how Like I think Gordon White even said it
Speaker 4: on the show how with Chaos Magic, it was like
Speaker 4: something that like kind of came through and just like went,
Speaker 4: but like I kind of stayed with it. Like it
Speaker 4: was almost like out of me being bored technically with
Speaker 4: what I was doing ceremonial wise, it was like, let
Speaker 4: me check out this Chaos Magic stuff. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 4: this is kind of fun, like you know, less rules.
Speaker 4: You know, I can get autistic with my schigil. Now,
Speaker 4: I don't need like a Martin's fucking square for this,
Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying. So uh, And then it
Speaker 4: was just like, you know, I kind of had like
Speaker 4: it's big thing, and like, you know, I guess I
Speaker 4: kind of like put it to the side. But I
Speaker 4: always kind of kept that though, Like the sigil work
Speaker 4: and stuff. I always incorporated that even all my candles.
Speaker 4: You know, if I was you know, I would incorporate
Speaker 4: some sort of chaos. I guess technically, you know, the
Speaker 4: way that those sigils are done, it's it's not with
Speaker 4: the you know Jamatria, the Hebrew Jamatri. I would put
Speaker 4: that on this, So you know, it was something that
Speaker 4: stayed with me. But uh yeah, I'm going on too
Speaker 4: long now. But one thing I do want to ask,
Speaker 4: and this is this is kind of like jumping ahead,
Speaker 4: but it was like something that you said made me
Speaker 4: think of this just now. I can't remember what it was.
Speaker 4: But when it comes to chaos, magic and the sigils
Speaker 4: and stuff, do you think it's ever possible you might
Speaker 4: be a little bit like we might be doing something
Speaker 4: a little bit like Giordano Bruno was trying to do
Speaker 4: with the art of memory, where we might actually be
Speaker 4: imprinting things onto ourselves or actually sparking stuff inside our
Speaker 4: brain like that shape believe it or not, might actually
Speaker 4: do something regardless even though we're like, oh I just
Speaker 4: made that, well, it's still actually means something inside your head.
Speaker 4: Do you think that's possible that you might actually be
Speaker 4: like it almost might be. This is the worst way
Speaker 4: to say it, but like almost self m chulture where
Speaker 4: you're actually trying to reprogram or open up things in
Speaker 4: your own mind.
Speaker 6: I do to a limit. Let me elaborate.
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, go for it, go for it.
Speaker 6: I do have strong opinions on this now.
Speaker 1: So Austin Osmin's fair is the one that really kind
Speaker 1: of developed the style of sigilization that you're talking about,
Speaker 1: or you are creating this artistic form from an intention phrase,
Speaker 1: right like you take an attention phrase, you reduce it down.
Speaker 1: You either use the letter method or you can use
Speaker 1: a wheel, you can just whatever create an image artistically
Speaker 1: from that intention phrase, and then you enter an altered
Speaker 1: state of consciousness and sort of charge and activate that
Speaker 1: sigil in that altered state, or with a chaos magicians,
Speaker 1: it's called a gnostic state where you are focusing intently
Speaker 1: on one intention and then you're implanting that image into
Speaker 1: your subconscious mind. That way, after you destroy the sigul
Speaker 1: it can manifest as you go about your day subconsciously.
Speaker 1: You don't have to be consciously thinking about the intention anymore.
Speaker 1: It's all a subconscious process. So yeah, I do think
Speaker 1: that in that it's specifically with the Austin Osman Spares
Speaker 1: sigulization methods. I do think that we are implanting things
Speaker 1: into our psyche, but I don't think that they stick.
Speaker 1: I've found working a lot.
Speaker 6: With sigils that.
Speaker 1: They kind of like dissipate really quickly, and so I
Speaker 1: find that working with servitors or other types of magical
Speaker 1: entities really create more potent, long lasting brain changes, where
Speaker 1: as a sigule.
Speaker 4: What's that that's makes sense while if you unless you
Speaker 4: think that, if you're not going to feed the thing,
Speaker 4: you have to keep going back to it, so it's
Speaker 4: constantly reminder exactly.
Speaker 1: It's really great for quick magic. I like to think
Speaker 1: of the elements here. You know, we have like fire, earth, air, water,
Speaker 1: and fire is always associated to really quick magic, but
Speaker 1: it does taper off very quickly as well. It doesn't
Speaker 1: have that strong grounding foundation that the earth element does.
Speaker 1: So I kind of think of sigils like that, where
Speaker 1: it's very quick acting and good for smaller intentions, and
Speaker 1: I do think it can kind of help reprogram the subconscious,
Speaker 1: but to an extent obviously, and then that magic kind
Speaker 1: of fades out a little bit. So yes and no,
Speaker 1: I guess it's been my personal experience, but you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think there are some freak incidents
Speaker 1: too where people have worked with sigels and they've been
Speaker 1: able to accomplish incredible things. And I think that's just
Speaker 1: apparent in occult practices of all kinds, where you have
Speaker 1: that one percent of a miracle potentially happening or some
Speaker 1: you know, crazy odds. But I would just say overall,
Speaker 1: sigels are good for quick magic, not good for a
Speaker 1: whole brain rewiring.
Speaker 3: I like you.
Speaker 8: I like you, well, I had something I wanted to
Speaker 8: throw in there. I see chaos magic as kind of
Speaker 8: a return to the primordial, because what we see is
Speaker 8: kec you know, right, this frog deity of chaos returning
Speaker 8: in the in the Donald Trump presidency of all things.
Speaker 8: We see the eight sided or eight pointed star as
Speaker 8: the star of Ishtar, goddess of love and war. Pretty chaotic,
Speaker 8: you know. And then we have all these references to
Speaker 8: the agency of chaos, and it's sort of like all
Speaker 8: of this stuff is bubbling up, and we see this
Speaker 8: sort of changing of the eons and this sort of
Speaker 8: milieu of chaotic reality kind of all around us. It's
Speaker 8: almost like the fertile ground for you know, a reimagining
Speaker 8: of what ordering chaos really is.
Speaker 1: No, that's exactly right. Chaos magic really is a return
Speaker 1: to the primordial. It's about working with the idea of
Speaker 1: primordial chaos where there is no set form yet, and
Speaker 1: so because there is no set form, we can create
Speaker 1: whatever kind of reality we want based on our belief
Speaker 1: and our will as magicians. So no, to your point,
Speaker 1: I completely agree with that.
Speaker 4: As well, said anybody else have questions? Er, thank you?
Speaker 5: Might be a stupid question, but I'm going to ask
Speaker 5: it anyway.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 5: Platinus has this idea of like the uh, the one
Speaker 5: kind of overflowing and experiencing itself through like or like
Speaker 5: experiencing multiplicity through a scheme of differentiation, and that always
Speaker 5: made me think of chaos kind of like some of
Speaker 5: those images of chaos where you have like those two
Speaker 5: circles kind of coming out of each other, and like
Speaker 5: that idea that from the one, there's like the two
Speaker 5: and the three, and that they are all from the one,
Speaker 5: but they are different and like everything is different. I
Speaker 5: guess I wonder do you think that chaos magic kind
Speaker 5: of works in a scheme of different creation or right,
Speaker 5: because you're also talking about how nosis is kind of involved,
Speaker 5: like it's like these new states, these new things novelty.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a stupid question at all. I
Speaker 1: think that's a great question actually, And I'm not a
Speaker 1: philosophy expert. I am very I am a very practical occultist,
Speaker 1: So I don't read books unless I absolutely have to.
Speaker 1: That sounds absolutely terrible because I know that I said
Speaker 1: that I bring in academia, and then here I am like,
Speaker 1: I don't give a shit about philosophy and history.
Speaker 6: No, just kidding, I'm just kidding when I say that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so I think to answer your question, that's
Speaker 1: really difficult because every chaos magician is going to practice
Speaker 1: chaos magic differently, and they're going to have a different
Speaker 1: view on how chaos magic works. And because it innately
Speaker 1: rejects any sort of dogma, I would say that maybe
Speaker 1: some chaos magicians might practice from that perspective, but perhaps
Speaker 1: not all.
Speaker 6: Because.
Speaker 1: To define that is to add struck sure to the
Speaker 1: chaos magic philosophy, which innately rejects structure. So I hope
Speaker 1: that that answers your question, but I'm sure some chaots
Speaker 1: would definitely perceive it that way though.
Speaker 4: Thank you. Anybody have a question before I ask the
Speaker 4: next one, I don't want to keep your guys nick
Speaker 4: all right, yeah, before before, you mentioned servitor and that
Speaker 4: is something that I have experienced in using in the past.
Speaker 4: Just for the listeners who don't know what that is,
Speaker 4: and I hate to put you on the spot, Ivy,
Speaker 4: But could you maybe explain what is a servitor to you?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Sure, So a servitor is a magical entity or a
Speaker 1: thought form or some sort of construct that has been
Speaker 1: created from the magician. And there's many different perceptions as
Speaker 1: to what a servitor is. Some people think that it's
Speaker 1: almost like you're putting a job posting up on a
Speaker 1: cosmic bulletin board and then a servitor type entity is
Speaker 1: coming in to fill that.
Speaker 6: I don't agree to helpe it. I mean, you know,
Speaker 6: if people want to believe that, that's fine, that's not
Speaker 6: how I've never heard that. Oh really yeah no, for me,
Speaker 6: it's very much a mental thought form.
Speaker 1: So you are taking the you're taking this intention phrase
Speaker 1: and with a sigil, you know, you would normally take
Speaker 1: the intention phrase, reduce it down, create an image, and
Speaker 1: then implant that onto your subconscious mind. But with a servitor,
Speaker 1: you're actually creating this entity, this being, and breathing life
Speaker 1: into that entity. And there is a maintenance to it.
Speaker 1: There is, I mean, you're feeding that servitor, You're interacting
Speaker 1: with it on a regular basis. So it's almost like
Speaker 1: to me, I would describe it the next level up
Speaker 1: from a sigil because you do use sigils in the process,
Speaker 1: but you're actually creating an entity from it that you
Speaker 1: are then interacting with so that it can take on
Speaker 1: larger tasks. Because as I mentioned beforehand, sigils are really,
Speaker 1: you know, great for quick magic, but not really they
Speaker 1: don't sustain for very long. So servitors are excellent for
Speaker 1: really really big working something that you want to work
Speaker 1: on over a longer period of time.
Speaker 6: And that's just my perception.
Speaker 1: I know that everybody look magical entities differently, but that
Speaker 1: is kind of how I actually, you know what, I
Speaker 1: do want to add a distinction because if we get
Speaker 1: into magical entities, I do have a chapter on magical entities,
Speaker 1: and I talk about servitors versus Tulpa's versus Eggregre's, and
Speaker 1: I do want to make a distinction that a servitor
Speaker 1: is kind of like a I hate to say it
Speaker 1: this way, but a mindless servant, a mindless robot that
Speaker 1: does not experience emotions. It does not have autonomy. Although
Speaker 1: I will say with my own servitors, the line gets
Speaker 1: a little bit blurred because with Tulpa's they do experience emotion,
Speaker 1: they do have autonomy, and they can actually create a
Speaker 1: full possession of the body, and so I have had
Speaker 1: lines blurred where a servitor starts to turn.
Speaker 6: Into a tulpa.
Speaker 1: But for the most part, just to kind of get
Speaker 1: our definitions straight, I would say that a servitor is
Speaker 1: more mindless, no autonomy, no emotion, and it just kind
Speaker 1: of helps execute tasks for you.
Speaker 8: How do you tell the difference?
Speaker 1: This is the argument, No, just kidding, This is an
Speaker 1: argument amongst chaos magicians who work with magical entities. So
Speaker 1: Tulpa's in my experience and what I've seen from others,
Speaker 1: really are more akin to like an imaginary friend. It
Speaker 1: is this entity and actually the whole Tulpa mancy community.
Speaker 1: I don't want to fully wrap this under the Chao's
Speaker 1: magic umbrella because it is almost separate yet parallel to
Speaker 1: the occult world. A lot of people that are really
Speaker 1: really into psychology will actually get into Tulpa mancy and
Speaker 1: not even have it be part of any sort of
Speaker 1: occult workings whatsoever. But some occultists will kind of incorporate
Speaker 1: that in so whereas servitors, you know, that word is
Speaker 1: usually only seen in reference to some sort of occult practice.
Speaker 1: But yeah, Tulpa's are more like an imaginary friend. And
Speaker 1: in my experience, they're so difficult to create, and it
Speaker 1: takes months and months, if not years, to create this
Speaker 1: entity inside your mind that can kind of share the
Speaker 1: brain space with you, and there's a lot of there's
Speaker 1: a lot that goes into it. There's like parallel processing
Speaker 1: that happens with tulpa's. I'm not an expert, so I
Speaker 1: actually don't talk about Tulpa's too much in my book.
Speaker 1: I kind of just refer people to other Tulpa answers
Speaker 1: that I think are great to learn from. So don't
Speaker 1: ask me too many questions about Tulpa's, of course, because
Speaker 1: I'm not too much of an expert. But yeah, servators
Speaker 1: is more my jam and where my expertise lies. And
Speaker 1: they're much simpler creations, much easier to manage. They don't
Speaker 1: normally speak in your head like a Tulpa does, so yeah.
Speaker 4: I know for myself when I use the servitor, Like,
Speaker 4: I'm not not asking you to tell me what it was,
Speaker 4: but like when you made when you were I guess
Speaker 4: whatever dealt with yours? Did you actually like you have
Speaker 4: like a description in your head or on paper, like
Speaker 4: you actually constructed what it looked like and gave it
Speaker 4: a name. Yeah. I did all that, and then I
Speaker 4: would you know, I think a few times a week
Speaker 4: I would like feed it and actually like retell it,
Speaker 4: like this is what you're supposed to do, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so it is definitely I think as a ceremonial magician too.
Speaker 4: It to just be honest, it game a reason to
Speaker 4: do rituals, you know. I was like, oh, this is
Speaker 4: a reason to do the less of vanishing ritual and
Speaker 4: to invoke something. And I don't know, you know so,
Speaker 4: but uh, yeah, it's very It's interesting. You know, it's
Speaker 4: funny to hear you say like you know certain things.
Speaker 4: It just reminds me like, yeah, I remember when I
Speaker 4: was doing that, would actually feed the thing. And yeah,
Speaker 4: now when you mentioned it's funny, I don't have much
Speaker 4: experience with Tulpa's and I think it's probably because I
Speaker 4: was dealing with messing with chaos magic. There's more of
Speaker 4: like kind of like sigils. Then it was servitors. Then
Speaker 4: if you really want to take it up, you go
Speaker 4: to edgrigors. You know what I'm saying. And I heard
Speaker 4: you mentioned, you know, you don't much know much about
Speaker 4: Tulpa's but servitors and agregors, And that makes sense because
Speaker 4: I feel like that is kind of just like, you know,
Speaker 4: stepping it up in chaos magic. What would you hate,
Speaker 4: you know again, to put you on the spot for egrigors?
Speaker 4: How would you explain those for the people?
Speaker 1: Sure?
Speaker 6: No, put me on the spots? Why I'm here? I
Speaker 6: love this conversation.
Speaker 1: So yeah, And Egregor is kind of like a servitor
Speaker 1: on steroids. So where a servitor is created by the
Speaker 1: mind of one magician for a very specific intention, and
Speaker 1: Agregor is created by the hive mind, it's by a
Speaker 1: group of people. And this can either be consciously or unconsciously.
Speaker 1: So this gets into a really interesting discussion about people
Speaker 1: unconsciously creating agrigors and even discussing let's say the Christian
Speaker 1: God for example, going back to objectivity versus subjectivity. Is
Speaker 1: the Christian God actually real some gods sitting up in
Speaker 1: the clouds in heaven above or is it just an agrigor?
Speaker 1: Is it this entity that has been created over thousands
Speaker 1: of years of people feeding their ideas, their thoughts, their belief,
Speaker 1: their love into this thing potentially being real?
Speaker 6: So anegrigor really is just.
Speaker 1: Like a servitor, but created by potentially thousands of people,
Speaker 1: and even covens. I mean, I ran covens for four years,
Speaker 1: and I won't share what we did, of course, to specifically,
Speaker 1: because I'm not allowed to share those types of things.
Speaker 1: But we would even create agrigors. And so you would
Speaker 1: during ritual push your energy. I'm trying to how do
Speaker 1: I say this without giving too much away, push your
Speaker 1: energy and intention towards a specific goal, and everybody in
Speaker 1: the group would be focusing on the same thing.
Speaker 6: And you would give.
Speaker 1: This this thing life shape, you would give it a
Speaker 1: logo or a sigil, you would give it characteristics and such,
Speaker 1: and so you are just a mass group of people
Speaker 1: creating this thing. But I really like the idea of
Speaker 1: eggregors because it really does beg the question with gods,
Speaker 1: whether they're real or not, or whether they're just eggregors.
Speaker 1: And I also think that companies and institutions, and I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people in corporate America unconsciously work
Speaker 1: with eggregors through their branding and having their fans and
Speaker 1: even through media, you know, influencing people and manipulating people
Speaker 1: like that to feed their energy and attention into their mascots.
Speaker 1: You know, if we think of like Kellogg's or something,
Speaker 1: and we think of like the mascot of all these
Speaker 1: brands and such, every time that that mascot flashes up
Speaker 1: on the screen, are we not kind of giving it
Speaker 1: our attention and feeding it a little bit?
Speaker 6: Does that not kind of become an aggregor?
Speaker 1: This thought for that all of us are either we
Speaker 1: love it or we hate it, but we're all feeding
Speaker 1: energy into So I love the concept of Egregre's.
Speaker 6: I think it's super interesting.
Speaker 1: And yeah, to either consciously or unconsciously create them, I
Speaker 1: think is really interesting.
Speaker 4: Thank you, It was a good way to put it.
Speaker 4: One question I do have. I'm wondering, do you think
Speaker 4: it's possible? Guess this gets a little bit more conspiratorial,
Speaker 4: but do you think it's possible that like the public
Speaker 4: can be made to create an Edgarg or not even
Speaker 4: realize they're doing it?
Speaker 6: Oh? One hundred percent?
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, this is coming from me being a
Speaker 1: conspiracy theorist and not trusting anyone or anything ever.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Oh my.
Speaker 1: Gosh, yeah, I mean I so, I was in school
Speaker 1: for psychology before I switched my degree in molecular biosciences.
Speaker 1: I was getting my degree in psychology and I got
Speaker 1: to year three and then ended up dropping out because
Speaker 1: I decided I didn't want to be a psychologist because
Speaker 1: of all of the politics and the bullshit.
Speaker 6: I didn't want to do it anyways.
Speaker 1: So I had to take a lot of like sociology
Speaker 1: classes and psychology of you know, communities and such. And
Speaker 1: it's really interesting all the manipulation tactics that become so
Speaker 1: apparent and so clear once you know how to spot them,
Speaker 1: you know, like once you see a cover up or something.
Speaker 1: It's just it's wild watching politicians, watching even medical companies.
Speaker 1: I mean all of them. All of them are so corrupt,
Speaker 1: and I'm just sitting here like, wow, there is They
Speaker 1: don't even realize that they're doing a cult hidden shit
Speaker 1: right now, but they absolutely are.
Speaker 6: So yeah, definitely cool.
Speaker 4: Did anybody have any have any questions?
Speaker 3: I got one.
Speaker 8: So me and Nick follow a lot of strange animals
Speaker 8: on Instagram and what they're they're start starting to do
Speaker 8: is they have these footpads that they go around and
Speaker 8: they touch the button and they you know, speak to
Speaker 8: their owners with these sounds that come out of the
Speaker 8: buttons and this one cat I've been following loves the
Speaker 8: movie Pocahontas, like that's our favorite movie. So this meme
Speaker 8: has spread from the human world to the cat world,
Speaker 8: and the cat now believes that Pocahontas is real and
Speaker 8: so it's always pushing the button I want to see Pocahontas.
Speaker 8: So for Halloween, Pocahontas, a person dressed up like Poconas
Speaker 8: actually came and visited this cat, and so this cat
Speaker 8: was having an interaction with the meme that was made
Speaker 8: in this cartoon that now it believes the character of
Speaker 8: Pocahontas is coming to visit it, and so it was
Speaker 8: it was really excited and it was saying, when Cano
Speaker 8: Pocahontas come back, you know, it's pushing all the buttons.
Speaker 3: That's going crazy.
Speaker 8: Uh, meme magic has spread from humans into animals. What
Speaker 8: are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1: Okay, so I have actually I know exactly what you're
Speaker 1: talking about, like not that specific cat, but I've definitely
Speaker 1: seen the videos where a dog will press the buttons,
Speaker 1: you know, and it has their their like speaking certain
Speaker 1: words and they're training their.
Speaker 6: Dog that way.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I have anything other than that's crazy, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just really crazy to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean to be able to. We're actually reading in
Speaker 1: my book club right now. You guys had on Richard
Speaker 1: Kachinski recently to talk about his Mind over Magic, and
Speaker 1: we're reading that in my book club right now, and
Speaker 1: he's talking about programming and we're just in the first
Speaker 1: six chapters is what we've covered, but he talks about
Speaker 1: you know, programming and conditioning and things like that, and yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just it's really interesting. I could go on a
Speaker 1: whole rant about like the reality threshold and our cognitive
Speaker 1: filters and such, but I definitely think the animals they
Speaker 1: may have a lesser version of that, but they still
Speaker 1: have that where we can kind of manipulate them and
Speaker 1: that's really sad.
Speaker 6: But yeah, that's crazy. I guess those are all my thoughts.
Speaker 5: I guess I had a question. So you wrote you
Speaker 5: got to work with Peter Carroll, which is so cool,
Speaker 5: and I was wondering, you know, there there's the Peter
Speaker 5: Carroll kind of chaos magician, and then like maybe Discordianism
Speaker 5: type of chaos magician, and like the Discordianism, they get
Speaker 5: real weird with it like their apocryphas and stuff are
Speaker 5: just really strange and obscure. And I was wondering, like,
Speaker 5: could you talk a little bit on the differences between
Speaker 5: maybe those schools of thought.
Speaker 1: Oh geez, So this is gonna be tough for me
Speaker 1: to answer because I don't identify with either.
Speaker 6: Because the way I practice chaos magic is different.
Speaker 1: From both of them. So yeah, I mean, so I
Speaker 1: kind of take my own approach. And here's here's the problem,
Speaker 1: not necessarily a problem, just an observation with the chaos
Speaker 1: magic community because it's not a formal institution, like if
Speaker 1: you think of like the Hermitic Order of the Golden Down, Okay,
Speaker 1: it has all these rules and regulations, and every lodge
Speaker 1: of the Golden Dawn operates similarly. Like they might be
Speaker 1: a little bit different in theory, but for the most part,
Speaker 1: they kind of have the similar a similar framework, whereas
Speaker 1: chaos Magic it rejects that institutionalized dogma. So we don't
Speaker 1: have an official logo, we don't have an official set rules,
Speaker 1: we don't have official leaders in the community. Even I
Speaker 1: mean Peter Carroll is seen as one of the founders
Speaker 1: of Chaos Magic, but he has his own flavor of
Speaker 1: practicing chaos magic that doesn't resonate with all of us.
Speaker 1: So I think it's hard to classify chaos magicians because
Speaker 1: there's so many. I have never met two chaos magicians
Speaker 1: that are the same at all, and so I think
Speaker 1: that the Discordianism approach and the Peter Carroll approach are
Speaker 1: probably the two most well known. But I would actually
Speaker 1: say there's so many other flavors of chaos magic than
Speaker 1: that Discordianism. I have never really been truly called down
Speaker 1: that path, so I actually have no idea. But Peter Carroll,
Speaker 1: I've definitely read all of his books. He takes a
Speaker 1: lot more of a scientific approach to chaos magic. He
Speaker 1: kind of has his own method in theory based on
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I'm going to absolutely busher this if he
Speaker 1: ever watches this, which I don't think he will, but
Speaker 1: he doesn't watch stuff like this. But you know, his
Speaker 1: approach is very much centered around physics because that's his
Speaker 1: area of expertise. And he's also he kind of leans
Speaker 1: or I don't know if this is true current day,
Speaker 1: but in his previous works he leans more towards the
Speaker 1: atheistic approach, which I actually disagree with and disagreements are
Speaker 1: something that's really important in chaos magic community. We should
Speaker 1: be able to disagree with each other and challenge each
Speaker 1: other's beliefs and such. So I actually personally feel like
Speaker 1: atheism is also a form of dogma. So I know
Speaker 1: that atheism rejects Christianity and you know, organized religion and stuff,
Speaker 1: but atheism itself is its own form of dogma, which
Speaker 1: I think is the antithesis of really what chaos magic
Speaker 1: is trying to say. Now, again, this chaos magic changes
Speaker 1: over the years. So what chaos magic was in the
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies when Peter Carroll was writing about it is
Speaker 1: going to be a lot different than what we're talking
Speaker 1: about in twenty twenty five. So yeah, I would say
Speaker 1: his approach is a lot more scientific, a lot more atheist.
Speaker 1: Discordianism can't speak to that too much, But there's also
Speaker 1: just so many other flavors out there.
Speaker 8: I had a quick question, do you believe that disbelief
Speaker 8: has a dispelling effect on other people's spells? Like a
Speaker 8: person who disbelieves strongly in a thing can actually create
Speaker 8: a sort of field around themselves that causes sort of
Speaker 8: strange happenings to dissipate a little bit that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I definitely do to an extent. Of course,
Speaker 1: it sort of depends on So with the chaos magic perspective,
Speaker 1: you might be going through what's called belief shifting or
Speaker 1: paradigm jumping, which is where you are intentionally adopting and
Speaker 1: discarding beliefs as they suit your magical ritual.
Speaker 6: And so if you're working like let's.
Speaker 1: Talk about the models of magic for a second, you
Speaker 1: have the spirit model of magic, the meta model, the
Speaker 1: energy model, the psychological model, and the chaos magician may
Speaker 1: adopt one of those models at any point depending on
Speaker 1: what they're doing. So if you are fully adopting the
Speaker 1: spirit model, let's say for a particular ritual, you are
Speaker 1: getting yourself to believe that spirits objectively exist regardless of
Speaker 1: your belief in them, then from that perspective, then the
Speaker 1: answer would be no, because your belief doesn't really matter
Speaker 1: too much because you're working with the idea of these
Speaker 1: objective spirits.
Speaker 6: But if you're working.
Speaker 1: From the psychological model or the energy model and such,
Speaker 1: I personally do believe that belief is very potent, and
Speaker 1: your disbelief in something can dispel what you're doing. I
Speaker 1: also want to add another caveat here that sometimes we
Speaker 1: think we believe something, but there is a rift between
Speaker 1: the conscious mind and the subconscious mind, because you might
Speaker 1: think consciously that you believe in something when subconsciously you
Speaker 1: really don't, or vice versa.
Speaker 6: And so I think we need.
Speaker 1: To work with altered states a lot in ritual for
Speaker 1: this reason, because when we enter altered states of consciousness,
Speaker 1: we drop down into our subconscious mind a little bit more,
Speaker 1: into the spirit world a little bit more, and so
Speaker 1: we're able to bypass those cognitive filters and really get
Speaker 1: down to what we actually believe.
Speaker 6: So if we're working with our belief and.
Speaker 1: Trying to manipulate things, we're implanting it directly into the
Speaker 1: subconscious and you don't have that friction of what you
Speaker 1: think consciously you believe versus what you subconsciously believe. I
Speaker 1: think I just went on a whole I don't even
Speaker 1: know what the original question was. I was just kind
Speaker 1: of rambling, so.
Speaker 3: Sorry, I'll jump in really quick.
Speaker 2: If that's a retaining I was going to ask if
Speaker 2: you had no Yeah, I think what Ivy said was
Speaker 2: totally correct, Like, that's correct for every kind of magic
Speaker 2: that's not I don't think that's even limited. Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you do drop, we would call it like rigpa, you
Speaker 2: drop down into like the fifth state of consciousness, like
Speaker 2: that kind of I would call it diamond thunder, but
Speaker 2: people can call it whatever they want. It is that
Speaker 2: sort of more primordial state, as I'd be said, but
Speaker 2: it is. It is like I would say, it's Yosodac
Speaker 2: obviously shout out to our series net.
Speaker 3: On Cabal, but you know it is so.
Speaker 2: But that can be a problem too, as Ivy saying,
Speaker 2: because it is the realm of the spirits, it's the
Speaker 2: ghost worlds, so certain things can arise in that state
Speaker 2: that aren't necessarily real or not real. I always call
Speaker 2: it either either or or not. Excuse me, neither nor,
Speaker 2: I always say. People just asked me, oh, are God's real.
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, it's real and not real. It's neither
Speaker 2: nor never either or so. I don't know if you
Speaker 2: agree with that, Ivy, but that's often how I sort
Speaker 2: of frame it myself. So I agree everything you said.
Speaker 2: It is just that this is like the conventions of
Speaker 2: like fundamental magic, Like what exactly what you're talking about,
Speaker 2: like dropping down to that state.
Speaker 3: But then you're gonna go up what a lot of
Speaker 3: people would call the will.
Speaker 2: You're going to push past that kind of tifferotic or
Speaker 2: solar consciousness, and you're gonna, you know, go all the
Speaker 2: way however, you know, wherever your whatever, your plan is.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I wanted to add that, Uh, there's something
Speaker 4: that you were saying, like kind of like the subconscious
Speaker 4: and conscious. For me, it just reminded me of when
Speaker 4: I was doing shadow work at some point, you know,
Speaker 4: when I guess maybe I just started really taking like
Speaker 4: you know, I was doing a lot of meditation, just trying,
Speaker 4: I guess, like you know, think on certain things. And
Speaker 4: at one point I was just realizing that like certain
Speaker 4: morals and values that I thought I had, I could
Speaker 4: look in different situations of my life and see how
Speaker 4: I contradict myself and I'm like, yo, that is fucking deep,
Speaker 4: Like my fucking brain is fucked.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: And like, honestly, it was like not too long after
Speaker 4: that that I start having magical experiences. Sometimes I even
Speaker 4: wonder if I even fried myself out, Like even my
Speaker 4: own conscious was like this makes no sense, Like why
Speaker 4: are we playing this game?
Speaker 6: Exactly. There are so many.
Speaker 1: I actually have an exercise in my book that works
Speaker 1: with journaling about your subconscious beliefs and helping you to
Speaker 1: start rewriting those subconscious beliefs. And there's I mean, deconditioning
Speaker 1: is such a core part of a chaos magic practice
Speaker 1: because you really want to shed societal limitation or societal brainwashing,
Speaker 1: even brainwashing from your childhood. We're really trying to deconstruct
Speaker 1: and get back to primordial chaos, right, and primordial chaos
Speaker 1: has no form, it does not have this the limitations
Speaker 1: of ego. So deconstruction is really important. So I like
Speaker 1: that you brought up shadow work because I think that
Speaker 1: can be very adjacent to some of the deconditioning practices
Speaker 1: of chaos magicians.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would even like and you know what, it's
Speaker 4: funny how you even like mentioned, you know, being conditioned.
Speaker 4: I think what even like kind of spurred me into
Speaker 4: getting that getting into all that with the shadow work
Speaker 4: is like I read the Gida, and in my opinion,
Speaker 4: when he's talking about like when he's talking about all
Speaker 4: those people on the battlefield, I'm like, in my opinion,
Speaker 4: I'm taking it as like all the voices in his
Speaker 4: head that have constructed his beliefs in the way he is,
Speaker 4: and like, I had to start going back being like,
Speaker 4: you know, nothing, nothing. I still love my father or whoever,
Speaker 4: or the guy across the street or neighbor, but there
Speaker 4: were certain values that they put into my head that
Speaker 4: I lived by that I disagree with completely fucking now,
Speaker 4: you know. And I had to let that shit.
Speaker 3: Go, you know.
Speaker 4: So yeah, some deep you know, I did that book,
Speaker 4: believe it or not, that scenarios what took me down
Speaker 4: that hole, you know, of starting to look at myself
Speaker 4: and what the fuck is actually making me think the
Speaker 4: way I think? Because that's behavior basically.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean, belief is so important, and it's
Speaker 1: like this, it's like this dance too, because yes, we
Speaker 1: want to feed our belief into something, but not to
Speaker 1: the point where it becomes adherence to dogma at the
Speaker 1: expense of anything else better that could come your way.
Speaker 1: And so I think that's the fine line too, is
Speaker 1: that belief in something is okay. Subscribing to something is
Speaker 1: totally okay. It's when it becomes this rigid adherence where
Speaker 1: you are no longer tapped into your creativity, your freedom
Speaker 1: if something better comes along, that's more efficient.
Speaker 6: If you're so stuck.
Speaker 1: In your ways and you're not even willing to consider
Speaker 1: new opportunities or you know, a new way of doing
Speaker 1: something in you're occult practice, that is the opposite of
Speaker 1: what chaos magic preaches. So yeah, no, I agree with that.
Speaker 1: So deconditioning is really important for that reason.
Speaker 7: There is a Zen expression of great doubt, great awakening,
Speaker 7: little doubt, little awakening, no doubt, no awakening, which I
Speaker 7: think is a great profound kind of idea towards your experience, Nick,
Speaker 7: And when we spend enough time inside, we all have
Speaker 7: that experience. And I love this, this topic of the
Speaker 7: individualized pursuit of magic IVY that you're taking on. This
Speaker 7: idea of applicability over ritualism is very tai Chi, very Taoist,
Speaker 7: and it's all about what works for the individual. And
Speaker 7: I think that's an example of why there's so many
Speaker 7: different styles and different aspects of tai Chi is because
Speaker 7: it's all about the individual what works for them. I
Speaker 7: should have known that you were into Thoth by looking
Speaker 7: at your book cover. Yeah, and then Nick, when you
Speaker 7: mentioned which will be on my radar now that eight
Speaker 7: essential tips for beginner occultists. I wonder if you look
Speaker 7: at this eightfold symbol, symbology is meaningful in any term.
Speaker 7: And I love the cover of your book, by the way.
Speaker 1: Oh thank you. Could I actually talk about the cover
Speaker 1: for a second, because it was by accident and it
Speaker 1: was actually kind of a message.
Speaker 4: I was going to ask you about it. Actually that
Speaker 4: was gonna be a yeah question.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No. I haven't had a chance to talk about
Speaker 1: this yet with anybody. But so Moon Books publishing, they're awesome.
Speaker 1: Usually authors don't get to choose their covers at all.
Speaker 1: It's all up to the publisher, which is wild because
Speaker 1: unfortunately some authors get stuck with a really ugly cover
Speaker 1: and they can't do anything about it.
Speaker 6: It's just the publishing.
Speaker 1: But Moon Books was really great and they were open
Speaker 1: to taking my notes as to what I wanted for
Speaker 1: the cover. So I didn't fully design the cover, but
Speaker 1: I gave them almost the exact concept that they produced,
Speaker 1: which I was happy with. But I was looking at
Speaker 1: the eight point at star because the eight pointed star,
Speaker 1: the chaos star, has kind of become an unofficial symbol
Speaker 1: for chaos magic, which there's never going to be an
Speaker 1: official symbol for chaos magic because again it rejects dogma
Speaker 1: that's never going to be a thing. But it is
Speaker 1: kind of like the unofficial symbol because you know, the
Speaker 1: IoT took it and are incorporating it into their symbolism
Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. But anyways, for the cover,
Speaker 1: I wanted the a point at star, you know, to
Speaker 1: signify chaos magic. And so I was looking on shutter stock,
Speaker 1: which is the only option that I had to really
Speaker 1: be able to find similar images to send to the
Speaker 1: publisher to give them an idea of what I was
Speaker 1: looking for. And I found this one that was really
Speaker 1: beautiful that I was like, Wow, this is the most
Speaker 1: gorgeous eight pointed star I think I've ever seen. It
Speaker 1: looks like it's got cool sigils on it, I mean,
Speaker 1: and I try to dig into it a little bit,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I don't think i've seen this before. Anyway,
Speaker 1: So I sent it to the publisher and I said, hey,
Speaker 1: can we get something like this on the cover. This
Speaker 1: would be cool.
Speaker 6: I showed it to my friends and my friend is
Speaker 6: a ceremonial magician, a solemonic practitioner, and she was like,
Speaker 6: why do you have the first pentacle of Venus on
Speaker 6: the cover of your book, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 6: so that's the first Pentacle of Venus. Okay, got it.
Speaker 1: So, but I actually ended up keeping it because she
Speaker 1: had mentioned she was like, you should get that changed,
Speaker 1: you should change it to something else, because the first
Speaker 1: Pentacle of Venus is all about Venusian energies, right, It's
Speaker 1: like the purest embodiment of Venusian energy. And I actually
Speaker 1: thought that was kind of cheeky and funny because the
Speaker 1: chaos magic scene is so dominated by masculinity, and I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't ever really meet female chaos magicians, and so
Speaker 1: I thought it was cheeky and fun to put Venus
Speaker 1: right on the cover of my book.
Speaker 6: And I was like, you know what, fuck it, let's
Speaker 6: go with Venus.
Speaker 1: Venus is the planetary sphere that I actually work with
Speaker 1: the most in my own personal planetary magic. So I
Speaker 1: thought it was kind of a divine sign from Venus
Speaker 1: that I was on the right track because it's an
Speaker 1: entity I work with quite often. So I was like,
Speaker 1: you know what, Venus, let's go. Let's bring in some femininity.
Speaker 1: And I'm perfectly okay with Venus being on my cover.
Speaker 1: So it's not actually the eight pointed star, but yeah,
Speaker 1: you know it works regardless. Venus rolls over so much
Speaker 1: more than people realize, so I'm happy with it.
Speaker 5: And maybe it'll bring some material abundance.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, bring it a tract attracting all the people
Speaker 1: onto the book cover. I have had so many people say, wow,
Speaker 1: you have such a beautiful book color. It's so attractive,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, that's funny because it's the
Speaker 1: first pinnacle of Venus.
Speaker 6: It's very attractive.
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's interesting though, even though I know, like
Speaker 4: the eighth point imported star, you know, with Venus, but
Speaker 4: then if you want to go with the number eight
Speaker 4: on the cabalistic tree of life, you would get Toath
Speaker 4: over there, and then that would go with writing and
Speaker 4: all that stuff. So I mean, very very very much
Speaker 4: fitting for you. Actually, I think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did actually dedicate this book to Thoth. The
Speaker 1: very first page of my book it straight up says
Speaker 1: this book is dedicated to so thank you for everything,
Speaker 1: Like that's the very first page. So the whole book
Speaker 1: is thanks to him.
Speaker 4: So yeah, you know, there was a lot of times
Speaker 4: when I would do rituals, I would kind of like
Speaker 4: take on his God form beforehand. Yeah, I was very
Speaker 4: much into Tooth for a while. It was a good
Speaker 4: dude for me. What was I going to ask?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, you know, I do have some questions. It's
Speaker 4: kind of questions that sometimes I do ask, just you know,
Speaker 4: occultists that come on or other authors. Uh. I don't
Speaker 4: think I even mentioned him to you, And they're nothing
Speaker 4: too deep. It's just I kind of just want to
Speaker 4: get your idea when it comes to magic. And I
Speaker 4: would say specifically first with Alister Crowley. Now I know
Speaker 4: I don't know how what you're into him, but from
Speaker 4: what you know with him, and then and or other occultists.
Speaker 4: And I'm asking this specifically also because you have a
Speaker 4: little bit more of academic side in science. Do you
Speaker 4: think that any of them are ever in their work
Speaker 4: trying to point to the eyeballs in the brain?
Speaker 1: Oh, you are asking me something I know absolutely nothing about.
Speaker 1: But no, I actually do know a lot about Alister Crowley,
Speaker 1: and because he was actually he's not considered a grandfather
Speaker 1: of chaos magic by any means, but his rebellious spirit
Speaker 1: really kind of set the stage for other occultists to
Speaker 1: be able to develop what was chaos or what is
Speaker 1: chaos magic now? So it was kind of like a
Speaker 1: chain of events and Crowley definitely played a part in that,
Speaker 1: though he's not really credited as any sort of founder,
Speaker 1: but so yeah, I do know of him and I
Speaker 1: could definitely speak to him. But as far as the
Speaker 1: eyeballs and the brain part, absolutely no idea. But I
Speaker 1: know that something that you might be a little bit
Speaker 1: more educated in, So.
Speaker 6: Now I kind of want to hear what you would
Speaker 6: have to say about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, no, I do think so yeah, And you know,
Speaker 4: just a lot of times whenever I've asked other people
Speaker 4: on here, people even associated with like the Oto or
Speaker 4: or or even Thelima, sometimes I'll just ask them. I
Speaker 4: don't think I've really gotten well, there was one person
Speaker 4: after the show kind of confirmed certain things that I thought,
Speaker 4: but for the most about everybody pretty much says no.
Speaker 4: You know, So I was just wondering if you know
Speaker 4: your opinion it sounds crazy. I know it might, uh,
Speaker 4: but I do think, like I'm just gonna put it
Speaker 4: out there. I'm not gonna get into it too much.
Speaker 4: I think his noox formula is all about the eyeball.
Speaker 4: That's my opinion. The eyeball and the pineal glin. So,
Speaker 4: but uh, yeah, I just wanted to ask you that
Speaker 4: another question that sometimes I do ask people. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 4: assuming you meditate, because you did talk about that. That
Speaker 4: was another thing I loved about your eight you know
Speaker 4: lessons or your eight points or whatever. It was the
Speaker 4: first thing you mentioned. I was like, yes, because I
Speaker 4: think it's very important. I even think, like, not to,
Speaker 4: you know, bring his name up again, but I think
Speaker 4: even David Schumacher and living Thelima or at some point
Speaker 4: when he mentions, like, you know, things that you should do,
Speaker 4: I think meditation is the first thing he's like, it
Speaker 4: doesn't sound glorious exciting, but you're going to have to meditate.
Speaker 4: When you meditate, have you ever seen it's almost like
Speaker 4: a pin dot or a blazing star or an eclipse.
Speaker 1: Oh geez, Well, if you ask me about meditation, I
Speaker 1: could talk for thirty minutes to two hours about why
Speaker 1: it's important and all of these things.
Speaker 6: I'm really passionate about it.
Speaker 1: I was actually a Zen Buddhist for a strict Zen
Speaker 1: Buddhists for about five years before kind of switching my
Speaker 1: path to chaos magic afterwards, and so meditation was a
Speaker 1: huge part of my spiritual practice, and it was just
Speaker 1: a very It was a very asthetic approach for sure.
Speaker 1: But no, I can't say usually my meditations. Now I
Speaker 1: will say I usually enter a trance in order to
Speaker 1: I'm also a seer, so that's something that has been
Speaker 1: part of my life for a really long time, so
Speaker 1: in order to gain visions or insight that is divinely inspired,
Speaker 1: or to communicate with spirits. But I can't say that
Speaker 1: I have experienced the eclipse that you're talking specifically. But
Speaker 1: please elaborate, because what do.
Speaker 6: You mean by that?
Speaker 4: Uh? It's uh. I mean I could probably send you
Speaker 4: like one of the shows where I went into it more.
Speaker 4: But like there's a whatever I do claim of across
Speaker 4: the abyss, and it's just an ongoing scenario of scenes
Speaker 4: that I see every time it happens. It starts off
Speaker 4: as this white pin dot that like literally with my
Speaker 4: eyes clos as it feels like there's actual depth in
Speaker 4: my head as I view this thing. And at some point,
Speaker 4: you know, whatever doing whatever I'm doing as I'm meditating,
Speaker 4: it comes closer and turns into an eclipse, and then
Speaker 4: certain things happen after that. And if I let it
Speaker 4: go blast off. So I was just asking, you know,
Speaker 4: that's this is another question to ask people if they
Speaker 4: ever seen an eclipse.
Speaker 1: Wow, No, that's really interesting. I wonder if I always
Speaker 1: wonder the things that we see in meditation, if they
Speaker 1: are conjured specifically for how we would personally interpret them,
Speaker 1: Like it may be an eclipse for you, but it
Speaker 1: might be something for someone else. But then we also
Speaker 1: have people that experience similar things, but that could be
Speaker 1: also similar brain wiring at play. But yeah, I can't
Speaker 1: say that I have experienced that, but I think that's
Speaker 1: really interesting and I'm sure that it's showing up for
Speaker 1: you in the exact way that it needs to.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you, I hope. So yeah, yeah, it was
Speaker 4: just like a lot of times I try to ask
Speaker 4: people about the cruelly thing and the eclipse. I just
Speaker 4: throw that out there. I know in your book, Uh,
Speaker 4: you know, what's funny you were talking about? There's something
Speaker 4: else you just mentioned before we else? Did you say
Speaker 4: that you're into as well.
Speaker 1: A million things? Zen Buddhism, I think is the last
Speaker 1: thing that I mentioned. What else am I into? Psychology?
Speaker 4: I feel like it was something like you contacting spirits
Speaker 4: or something like that. Was it like that?
Speaker 6: Oh yeah during meditative states?
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that was actually something I
Speaker 4: was like, Damn, I could get her on that for
Speaker 4: a whole episode.
Speaker 6: Yes, you could talk about.
Speaker 4: That, Yeah, but unfortunately it is it is your book
Speaker 4: that I did want to try to promote on here.
Speaker 4: You kind of split that up into like two sections correctly,
Speaker 4: like theory and then practice practice. What was the reason like,
Speaker 4: can you explain to the listeners what's the reasoning for
Speaker 4: you doing that?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So my book is split up into two parts. It
Speaker 1: first starts with theory. I think it's the first four
Speaker 1: chapters that are part of theory, and then the last
Speaker 1: three because it's seven chapters in total. I hope I'm
Speaker 1: not forgetting a chapter in my own book are a praxis,
Speaker 1: but the I think any occultist, first of all, from
Speaker 1: any tradition, needs to have a good balance between theory
Speaker 1: and praxis. I see so many people that are leaning
Speaker 1: heavy one way or another. Where we have people that
Speaker 1: are heavy into theory, but then you know, we potentially
Speaker 1: have the chance for armchair magicians who are never actually
Speaker 1: doing the work and never having any sort of divine
Speaker 1: revelations themselves, and so they get into this analysis paralysis
Speaker 1: where all they're doing is reading books but they're never
Speaker 1: actually doing the work. And then we have people that
Speaker 1: are doing practice, which is great and they're developing their
Speaker 1: own nosis, but they may not understand like the historical
Speaker 1: aspects of what they're doing, or you know, they're not
Speaker 1: bringing in the academy that really helps support and improve
Speaker 1: their skills of whatever it is they're doing. So I
Speaker 1: think any occultist of any tradition needs a good balance
Speaker 1: of both theory and praxis. The theory part specifically, really
Speaker 1: goes over chaos magic theory before we even get into sigils,
Speaker 1: hyper sigils, servitors, you know, pop culture magic and invocation
Speaker 1: and all of those things. It's good to understand what
Speaker 1: chaos magic theory even is because chaos magic really is
Speaker 1: a perspective about how magic works. My book isn't going
Speaker 1: to tell you what to do, because that's not what
Speaker 1: chaos magic is about. I'm not going to sit here
Speaker 1: and go, Okay, you must do this. This is stuff
Speaker 1: wanting to fuck that, throw that out the window. The
Speaker 1: chaos magic theory really relates to using your belief as
Speaker 1: a tool, entering a gnostic state prior to ritual and
Speaker 1: conversations about objective versus subjective reality and deconditioning your mind,
Speaker 1: like all the things that we've been talking about in
Speaker 1: this conversation so far. And then once you understand the
Speaker 1: theory part, go play, Go do a crazy invocation and
Speaker 1: bring a god into your body. I know that's probably
Speaker 1: really responsible for me to say, but fuck around and
Speaker 1: find out, you know, be possessed by a demon.
Speaker 6: I don't care.
Speaker 1: Go experiment and do all the things your heart desires,
Speaker 1: but I just want to bring in play. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very much.
Speaker 4: That's very much. It's very much how I kind of
Speaker 4: like took on ceremonial magic. I was like, yeah, just
Speaker 4: fuck around and find out I guess. I mean yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean it's kind of like to keep it real,
Speaker 4: even if with the ceremonial magician or I guess even
Speaker 4: cares magician very much like Headless has said it to
Speaker 4: me before, He's like, you know, a regular person, like
Speaker 4: you could have this wall of all these buttons and
Speaker 4: they'll I'll a lot tell you on the label what
Speaker 4: it does. A normal person will just take that for
Speaker 4: what it says. A magician is gonna be like, I
Speaker 4: have to hit every one of these to see if
Speaker 4: it actually fucking does. I have to know from.
Speaker 6: Experience, yep.
Speaker 1: And then they're gonna put on a lamasuit while they
Speaker 1: do it. He could do and like you know, flying
Speaker 1: Spaghetti Monster. I don't know, because it's all about fun
Speaker 1: and creativity and figuring out what works.
Speaker 6: So who cares?
Speaker 8: Yeah, So I've been listening to this podcast about these
Speaker 8: children that have developed a sort of blindfold site, right,
Speaker 8: And so they're what they're doing is they're teaching these
Speaker 8: children to see you all blindfolded. And they've done this
Speaker 8: with blind children, and there's some sort of window that
Speaker 8: opens up for them if they're able to maintain sort
Speaker 8: of like a childlike innocence of mind. Right, So it's
Speaker 8: a lot easier for children to get out of that,
Speaker 8: like you were saying, the conditioned state and then start
Speaker 8: to accept that maybe they're actually seeing without it. But
Speaker 8: the way that they have to do it is they
Speaker 8: have to cheat the mind. Originally by having the blindfolds
Speaker 8: with little opening so that light gets in, so that
Speaker 8: they think to themselves, well, I'm actually cheating. I'm cheating
Speaker 8: to see this figure even though it's you know, actually
Speaker 8: sealed up. So the mind has to be tricked into
Speaker 8: believing that it can see under a blindfold for it
Speaker 8: to actually work. So there's a really interesting angle about
Speaker 8: play there too, because if you're not to play with it,
Speaker 8: if you get frustrated, if you you know, if you
Speaker 8: have an emotional reaction and not being able to do it,
Speaker 8: there's no way that you'll ever be able to teach
Speaker 8: yourself to see without your eyes.
Speaker 4: Got interesting.
Speaker 1: That is so interesting, and that kind of that kind
Speaker 1: of reminds me of all the cognitive biases we have.
Speaker 1: So as adults, we kind of become more rigid and
Speaker 1: solidified in what we think and what we believe, and
Speaker 1: our ego and all of our thoughts about how the
Speaker 1: world works and so on and so forth. And the
Speaker 1: whole goal is to kind of shed that right and
Speaker 1: to go back to the primordial chaos. But if we
Speaker 1: think about just how the brain works in general, if
Speaker 1: we're if I'm examining my environment right now, we have
Speaker 1: all of these cues that are coming in, like the
Speaker 1: lights from my computer and the song of my or
Speaker 1: the sound of my dog being an asshole outside, you know, whatever, like,
Speaker 1: all these different things are coming in from my environment,
Speaker 1: and my brain is going to pass that through a
Speaker 1: reality threshold. And a reality threshold really decides what we
Speaker 1: see and what we don't see. It needs to match
Speaker 1: or pass this reality threshold of our preconceived notions of
Speaker 1: how realcy works. So if we have these this input
Speaker 1: coming in from our external environment and it does not
Speaker 1: match our preconceived notions of what reality is, we actually
Speaker 1: our brain discards it and we don't see it. So
Speaker 1: for example, a spirit, let's say, let's just for the
Speaker 1: sake of it, say a spirit is floating in my
Speaker 1: room right now, I am in a conscious state where
Speaker 1: my brain is constantly filtering things. I'm not even going
Speaker 1: to see that spirit because it doesn't match what I
Speaker 1: would perceive normal reality to be. And so that is
Speaker 1: why we have to drop down into these altered states
Speaker 1: and rituals so we can bypass the conscious mind. But
Speaker 1: what you're saying about the children and having to blindfold yourselves, yeah,
Speaker 1: you kind of have to trick your brain because your
Speaker 1: conscious mind has those filtering mechanisms that we need to bypass.
Speaker 6: And then also just children in general.
Speaker 1: I think that's such an interesting concept because they don't
Speaker 1: have that rigidity that adults have yet, and so their
Speaker 1: brains are just so free form and they can really
Speaker 1: experiment and do incredible things. There's always like that stereotype
Speaker 1: right where it's like the creepy child talking to spirits
Speaker 1: that nobody else can see, and you're like, all right,
Speaker 1: little kid, you're freaking me out.
Speaker 6: I don't really like that.
Speaker 1: And they can see stuff we can't, so yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm monologuing, but that's really cool.
Speaker 5: I was thinking too. That makes me think of panpsychism,
Speaker 5: like electrons all having consciousness and like sending information to
Speaker 5: each other like, and it makes me think of almost
Speaker 5: like it seems like these electrical fields in our bodies
Speaker 5: are almost like turned on or off, and I think
Speaker 5: for kids it's almost like they're fully open, fully on,
Speaker 5: and maybe as you get older, you like learn to
Speaker 5: kind of shut off different parts of yourself for whatever reason,
Speaker 5: and so it's like almost to also kind of align
Speaker 5: your conscious with your subconscious, Like I think you really
Speaker 5: have to have a lot of those channels open to
Speaker 5: be able to do that properly. And I was just
Speaker 5: thinking about that, and like some alignment is required for that.
Speaker 6: One hundred percent. I would agree with everything you said.
Speaker 8: I think it should be called nation alignment. Right, So
Speaker 8: it's that naive state where nobody's ever told you you
Speaker 8: can't do it before, So why can't you do it?
Speaker 8: You know, it's it's that nation alignment. I think that's
Speaker 8: that's a good way I put it.
Speaker 2: There's an important point that Ivy keeps springing up. I
Speaker 2: would you slightly obviously slightly different links to describe it.
Speaker 2: But she's talking about the same thing, and we call
Speaker 2: it disaggregation or you can call it, as I like
Speaker 2: to say on Twitter, breaking kleep us same thing. So
Speaker 2: it's you want to break the preconceptual like models of reality,
Speaker 2: but you but you don't want to be fixed in
Speaker 2: the antithesis either. This is something like Headliss said, like
Speaker 2: can disbelieve sort of negate, but negation is not as
Speaker 2: powerful a force.
Speaker 3: It just isn't.
Speaker 2: Belief is much more. It's a polarity unto itself. Almost
Speaker 2: belief is not the antithesis of belief. Disbelief I mean,
Speaker 2: so yeah, I agree. I agree with everything that Aeros
Speaker 2: and Ivy said. It's so important to like, if you
Speaker 2: want to call it shadow work. You can call shadow work,
Speaker 2: but I think that there's even something that about shadow work,
Speaker 2: Like people can get kind of stuck down there, stuck
Speaker 2: in the tunnels of sets, and people call it, and
Speaker 2: like they'll talk about like depression or like all these
Speaker 2: things and that, Yeah, those are like normal human experiences,
Speaker 2: normal human consciousness. Everybody you know goes through their thing.
Speaker 2: But I think, like, really, if you want to truly
Speaker 2: break them or truly disaggregate, you have to kind of
Speaker 2: also let like the negative go the negative sort of
Speaker 2: forces as well. I can't just be like I liked
Speaker 2: why we said at the beginning. It's like I'm not like,
Speaker 2: I'm not a love to impath archristian.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hear you. I counter this a lot myself.
Speaker 2: So it's hard because you want to bring things into balance,
Speaker 2: into synthesis, but also into rectification.
Speaker 6: Definitely.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to comment really quick on the left
Speaker 1: hand path right hand path dichotomy. I really try to
Speaker 1: embody a middle path, and I actually think that a
Speaker 1: middle path is a healthy, holistic way to go about it.
Speaker 6: Just my personal opinion.
Speaker 1: People can do whatever they want, but I don't even
Speaker 1: use those terms anymore. I always wonder is that kind
Speaker 1: of like an outdated perspective and we're kind of using
Speaker 1: that terminology right because we don't really have better words
Speaker 1: to use. But I do wonder if sometimes it is
Speaker 1: more of an outdated perspective with right hand path versus
Speaker 1: left hand path, because.
Speaker 6: I find that most of us are kind of in
Speaker 6: the middle.
Speaker 1: Even people that identify as left hand path, when you
Speaker 1: look at their practices, they kind of embody a little
Speaker 1: bit of both. So I don't even know if the
Speaker 1: distinction is necessary anymore. Maybe that's a hot take. I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's controversial or not.
Speaker 2: I agree, Oh, I co sign that one hundred percent agree.
Speaker 2: Like that's why I called it the gray Lodge, because
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, it's bringing in both, it's bringing both ideas,
Speaker 2: but you're not like going to extremes.
Speaker 3: You're just looking at it.
Speaker 2: Maybe you call it nargo union or maybe call it
Speaker 2: nondual or whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 3: Gnostic and you just kind of take it as ideas.
Speaker 2: You don't say, oh, I must go do this just
Speaker 2: because Pigatrick says this, Like no, you're just you're.
Speaker 3: Taking as conceptual ideas.
Speaker 2: Maybe you'll work in some sigil things, or maybe you'll
Speaker 2: even try and recreate the seal, but you know, it
Speaker 2: has to be pragmatic, has to be like about life,
Speaker 2: because we are alive and we're here. It can't be
Speaker 2: like an in negation of that. I think that's what
Speaker 2: my personal critique of the Loft and Path would be,
Speaker 2: is like, not all of it all that. Some of
Speaker 2: it's very life positive, but a lot of it can
Speaker 2: be very nihilistic as well. And I think like Buddhism
Speaker 2: is very life positive. I know people will say, maybe
Speaker 2: fight me, but I think it's I think of it
Speaker 2: as very life affirming, like we have this life to
Speaker 2: do what we choose and to like you know, practice
Speaker 2: arma or practice magic, and yeah, we should do that.
Speaker 6: I think.
Speaker 5: I was going to say to you about the shadow
Speaker 5: work and getting caught up in the shadow work. I mean,
Speaker 5: shadow work is one thing, but if you're not training
Speaker 5: your subconscious like it's you're not going to actually be
Speaker 5: changing anything within yourself.
Speaker 4: That's it. That's a good point.
Speaker 6: I would agree with that.
Speaker 1: Definitely, don't get me started on shadow work because I
Speaker 1: am such a snob when it comes to how people
Speaker 1: talk about the shadow work.
Speaker 6: I don't. Don't even get me going on.
Speaker 4: You know what, one thing I do want to say,
Speaker 4: Maybe this is where where Ivy will agree with too.
Speaker 4: I feel like a lot of people when they talk
Speaker 4: about they're doing shadow work, it's like, no, you're just
Speaker 4: running with your demons right now, like like you stop,
Speaker 4: like you've been dealing with the same thing for six months.
Speaker 4: You're you know, you're enjoying it now.
Speaker 6: Like yeah, that's one of the problems.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but uh, was there anybody else have any other
Speaker 4: questions or anything? No, Jue, I mean I do, well,
Speaker 4: go for it, I.
Speaker 5: Ask so so I I mean, I think that's just
Speaker 5: really interesting because I don't ever associate both with chaos.
Speaker 5: I associate him with order kind of or like a
Speaker 5: balance of the chaos and order. And so I was wondering, like,
Speaker 5: how do you relate to how does Thoth relate to
Speaker 5: your practice? I know that's kind of personal, but whatever
Speaker 5: you will share about that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I love this question. Actually, that's such a good question.
Speaker 1: I can only talk a little bit about it because
Speaker 1: it's part of my spiritual contract with him that I
Speaker 1: am not able to speak about our relationship to a
Speaker 1: certain level of detail. For a specific period of time.
Speaker 1: I'm still in the five year contract. I think it's
Speaker 1: year three with him, So we have a contract where
Speaker 1: I want to make sure that when I speak about
Speaker 1: something publicly, I want to make this sound so terrible.
Speaker 1: I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: And I don't want to start working with both in
Speaker 1: the first five years and try to assert myself as
Speaker 1: some sort of authority figure on how to work with
Speaker 1: both or who Foth is and so on and so forth.
Speaker 6: I just don't like that.
Speaker 1: Other people can do that if they want to, but
Speaker 1: if I'm going to talk about something with authority, I
Speaker 1: want to make sure I know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: So for the first five years of working with him,
Speaker 1: it is part of our contract that I don't really
Speaker 1: share the ins and outs. But I will say that
Speaker 1: from the Chaos magic perspective, it's all about it goes
Speaker 1: back to belief, right, So it doesn't really matter whether
Speaker 1: Foth is an actual god or if he's an eggergorre
Speaker 1: or a figment of my imagination and just a psychological archetype.
Speaker 1: If I am working with him from the perspective that
Speaker 1: my belief in him makes him real and makes that
Speaker 1: and makes change in my reality.
Speaker 6: That's what matters at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: So in working with him, I find that a lot
Speaker 1: of chaos magicians actually work with various deities. It's just
Speaker 1: that the way that they work with them is from
Speaker 1: a different perspective. Because a non chaos magician might work
Speaker 1: with Thoth or Hecatea or whatever God they're working with,
Speaker 1: it might actually believe that that God is objectively real
Speaker 1: regardless of their belief in them. They would believe that
Speaker 1: that God lives in some sort of upper realm, lower world,
Speaker 1: shadow world, you know, so on and so forth, whereas
Speaker 1: the ka is that deity is dependent on the chaotes
Speaker 1: belief in them.
Speaker 6: So I don't really.
Speaker 1: Find any There's no friction really in working with his
Speaker 1: dogma because I'm not succumbing to his dogma, if that
Speaker 1: makes sense. So I still work with both in more
Speaker 1: traditional means, and I really work with him for the
Speaker 1: purpose of writing, because he is kind of a mystical
Speaker 1: being that governs over writing and scripture and things of
Speaker 1: that nature. And just as a writer myself, I write
Speaker 1: nonfiction and fiction. It's I don't ever actually talk about
Speaker 1: that on any of my channels, but I do write
Speaker 1: other stuff outside of the occults.
Speaker 6: So he is very much kind of like.
Speaker 1: A muse of inspiration and I give offerings to him,
Speaker 1: and in an exchange, he gives me inspiration and we
Speaker 1: write together. So yeah, it's actually a really really fun
Speaker 1: relationship to have with him. It just takes a lot
Speaker 1: of I would say discipline, because both the entity that
Speaker 1: I've been working with this both very much likes asceticism
Speaker 1: and discipline. That is one thing that I noticed working
Speaker 1: with this entity versus And I use the word entity
Speaker 1: because I find it's a lot more inclusive than saying god,
Speaker 1: because then we go back to the idea of is
Speaker 1: it a god or not?
Speaker 6: Who knows? I don't care.
Speaker 1: So this entity that I'm working with does tend to
Speaker 1: be a lot more disciplined and rigorous than any other
Speaker 1: entity I've ever worked with.
Speaker 6: And I kind of like that.
Speaker 1: I like when somebody is slapping my wrist a little
Speaker 1: bit and it's like, Okay, get going, we need to
Speaker 1: be disciplined, we need to I really enjoy that type
Speaker 1: of energy as like a very type a personality.
Speaker 6: So yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I haven't really had any friction with it. It's been
Speaker 1: a really really fun experience.
Speaker 8: Well, I was going to bring up william S Burrows
Speaker 8: and his cut up method that's sort of like a
Speaker 8: staple of left hand path chaos magic, and that's working
Speaker 8: directly with these words that you're scrambling up. And then
Speaker 8: you know, it almost like pisss off both so much.
Speaker 8: He's got to interact with you with the with the
Speaker 8: words that he's bringing order to so in some sense,
Speaker 8: you know, it's it's almost like an aggravation that that
Speaker 8: you're trying to you know, produce something of in from
Speaker 8: that aggravation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely don't take that approach, but that is
Speaker 1: an approach that people can take.
Speaker 2: I guess provocation is an excellent cabalistic tool.
Speaker 3: I'll just say that, I.
Speaker 4: Know, with a very powerful I used to, like I said,
Speaker 4: I used to use Tooth a lot of to Hoody
Speaker 4: even used to have a statue form and everything. I
Speaker 4: used to look at him, you know a lot like uh,
Speaker 4: I guess like being there kind of like the chaos
Speaker 4: as well as in form and the you know, And
Speaker 4: the reasoning for me to even originally start looking at
Speaker 4: it like that is that he's even known from being
Speaker 4: there at the beginning to witness everything come to be.
Speaker 4: You know, he was there to categorize everything. So it's like,
Speaker 4: was he the chaos already watching it, have an experience
Speaker 4: and everything start becoming you know, whatever it is. I
Speaker 4: don't know. So it's like in some way, you know,
Speaker 4: it does his story does even kind of tell you
Speaker 4: he's been there since the beginning.
Speaker 1: Yeah, his story is really really interesting. He has been
Speaker 1: there from the absolute beginning. I know some people would
Speaker 1: argue that maybe some other goddesses or are more ancient
Speaker 1: than him, of course, but yeah, to see his development,
Speaker 1: and then we have like the conversion of the Greeks
Speaker 1: and the Egyptians coming together and merging him with Hermes,
Speaker 1: and then we have you know, Hermeticism and all this stuff.
Speaker 1: His lore is really really interesting. And that's why I
Speaker 1: always bring up the concept of egregres. Are we actually
Speaker 1: working with the original ancient Egyptian deity or are we
Speaker 1: working with something different now, especially with occultism, because now
Speaker 1: we have brought him into so many organizations, so many
Speaker 1: occult rituals, and has this god morphed over time because
Speaker 1: of our beliefs in this god changing and us feeding
Speaker 1: our magical energy into it. So again, that's why I
Speaker 1: go back to do we call it an entity or god?
Speaker 1: I don't know, and it doesn't matter.
Speaker 4: That's a really good point. Is it like even the
Speaker 4: same thing anymore interesting?
Speaker 3: Looks like the Akasha energy field?
Speaker 8: You know, it's like, thank you very much, go ahead.
Speaker 7: Sorry, you know, I was going to say just that
Speaker 7: both embodies the principles over rules and rituals.
Speaker 3: It's all about the principles and do.
Speaker 7: You know, do what you will with those principles, not
Speaker 7: necessarily dogmatic ideas.
Speaker 1: I think the scribes might disagree that worked with him
Speaker 1: forever ago, but also that was a completely different time
Speaker 1: and a completely different, you know, so different reality that
Speaker 1: we're living in nowadays.
Speaker 4: Do you ever see that show American Gods?
Speaker 6: No, I have not.
Speaker 4: I love the toth in that movie that in that show.
Speaker 2: Well, I actually think I could synthesize what Ethan is
Speaker 2: saying and what Ivy is saying, and I think I
Speaker 2: can even make an argument ask to why and adding
Speaker 2: in a little what Nick sad, because like toath is
Speaker 2: very hard like for going to use kwala like it's
Speaker 2: like the eight and so right, So yeah, exactly like
Speaker 2: what Nick said, he's chaos and in form. He is
Speaker 2: the watcher, he is the witness, and maybe that's his
Speaker 2: consciousness as well, maybe that's our consciousness because Hoade is
Speaker 2: linked to the Bene Elohim, the sons and daughters of Man.
Speaker 3: Sank just saying.
Speaker 2: But also I think, you know, I think he's a
Speaker 2: god of syntax, and just is just my personal I'm
Speaker 2: not a pagan, I'm not like, you know, like all that,
Speaker 2: but I think you think he's the god of word order,
Speaker 2: ritual word order, because this is something we have in NTRA,
Speaker 2: like we have the idea of ritual syntax, ritual grammars.
Speaker 2: And so I think that Ethan's right that he can
Speaker 2: be a god of like how to remix it into
Speaker 2: a coherent, cogent way. But he isn't necessarily like it's
Speaker 2: it's still within a certain set of rules. But maybe
Speaker 2: it appears as opposite or appears as backwards, so but
Speaker 2: it's still adhering to a certain set of rules. Maybe
Speaker 2: just the other polarity of it. I don't know, that's
Speaker 2: just an idea I had.
Speaker 5: H Well, doesn't he order chaos? So I guess it's
Speaker 5: just kind of interesting like that would kind of fit
Speaker 5: perfectly with chaos magic, because that's what, in a way,
Speaker 5: you're doing, right, You're ordering chaos. You're ordering that primordial
Speaker 5: and into a form.
Speaker 1: That's actually the most beautiful way to say that. You
Speaker 1: were saying it that way. No, it's so true, because
Speaker 1: that's what the chaos magician does. You take primordial chaos
Speaker 1: and you manipulate your reality to whatever you want it
Speaker 1: to be.
Speaker 6: So yeah, and you create order from that.
Speaker 4: It's pretty well done, very nice, right.
Speaker 8: A lot of you know, podcasters think that chaos magic
Speaker 8: is is the goal is to produce more chaos in
Speaker 8: the world, and it's like, really, I mean, can't you
Speaker 8: look into it a little bit more?
Speaker 6: And that is what I'm actually doing. Can I just
Speaker 6: can I just go off on that for a second?
Speaker 1: Go for one of the most annoying things ever, One
Speaker 1: of the biggest misconcessions about chaos magic is that it's
Speaker 1: so chaotic and we're just trying to create chaos and
Speaker 1: discord and whatever. Some people might but also every occultist
Speaker 1: of there's so many different traditions where there's always going
Speaker 1: to be those people that are trying to cause chaos
Speaker 1: and strife. Okay, So it is not intrinsically chaos magic.
Speaker 1: Chaos magic is about working with primordial chaos. And I
Speaker 1: think people get tripped up because of the word chaos
Speaker 1: in chaos magic, and they think it just means, you know,
Speaker 1: causing strife and chaos in the world, and that that
Speaker 1: really drives me crazy, especially because there's this element of
Speaker 1: record keeping and discipline that comes into a chaos magic practice,
Speaker 1: especially if you are performing belief shifting also known as
Speaker 1: paradigm jumping, and you're doing invocations, and you really should
Speaker 1: be keeping a record and you should be disciplined in
Speaker 1: your practice. So it's actually not disorganized at all. Most
Speaker 1: of the chaos magicians that I know are some of
Speaker 1: the most disciplined occultists that I've met, and also the
Speaker 1: most well versed occultists that I've met, because they've tried
Speaker 1: a bunch of different things, they've experimented, they've kept their records,
Speaker 1: and so to say that chaos magic is just disorganized
Speaker 1: is honestly an insult, and it really irritates me.
Speaker 6: So that's one of the biggest misconceptions. I can't stand
Speaker 6: it well.
Speaker 4: When it comes to the occult is tones of misconceptions.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, for sure, that's something I think this
Speaker 3: had no go go.
Speaker 2: I just want to say, I think that's what I
Speaker 2: was speaking to about Discordanism and how Discordanism is much
Speaker 2: more of an ethos. I would say, it's not necessarily like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're going to pray to Airis. Like obviously you talked
Speaker 2: about Austin Osman Spare and his like use of sigils
Speaker 2: as words, like because all of his sigils have poems
Speaker 2: and like, I'm very fond of this as well as
Speaker 2: like someone who like dabbles in writing, and I'm sure
Speaker 2: Ivy is as well. Like his stuff is for me,
Speaker 2: it's the most interesting because he incorporates both image and work,
Speaker 2: which I think is really powerful. But no, I think
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I totally forgot what I was saying, but no,
Speaker 2: I Discordanism, So I think, yeah, this a ethos, it's
Speaker 2: not necessarily like, yeah, there are people, They're sure, there
Speaker 2: are people who like, we're going to pray to Eris
Speaker 2: and you know, like you can treat her like it's
Speaker 2: a real entity and like thing, Yeah, sure, okay, but
Speaker 2: you know it's also just like we're going to cause chaos.
Speaker 2: We're gonna, you know, deconstruct everything. We're going to be
Speaker 2: the rebels against everything. And it's and as I be saying,
Speaker 2: like we have to be pragmatic. It's twenty twenty five,
Speaker 2: Like it's not about destroying the world time, it's about
Speaker 2: like we have to make of this world like what
Speaker 2: we can. I think is much more of a pragmatic
Speaker 2: approach to magic, and like a pragmatic approach to life, pragmagic.
Speaker 8: I like that.
Speaker 4: There we go, so teaching that in your great love.
Speaker 4: If you guys don't mind, only because unfortunately we do
Speaker 4: have an I have another show at six o'clock. I
Speaker 4: will probably wrap it up, Ivy. I mean, unfortunately, we
Speaker 4: could probably go on for hours about certain things, and
Speaker 4: I would hopefully would love to get you on again
Speaker 4: in the future. I thought this was an amazing and
Speaker 4: amazing talk with you. Yeah, you really fit right in
Speaker 4: with us. I had a blast having you on. It
Speaker 4: was better than I expected. Put it that way. And
Speaker 4: before we let you tell everybody where they can find
Speaker 4: all your stuff and everything, I'll have the other people
Speaker 4: on the show there are the rejects, remind everybody where
Speaker 4: they can find their work and Errows first up, let
Speaker 4: everybody know where they can find all your stuff. Please.
Speaker 5: You can find my stuff on YouTube at Arrows Up
Speaker 5: and on Twitter at Arrows to Ethos. Check it out.
Speaker 4: Thank you appreciate it. Yes, definitely go check out and stuff,
Speaker 4: especially if you're the neoplatinism. My man jin what is
Speaker 4: going on? Innji?
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, boss, and thank you to the panel,
Speaker 2: and thank you especially to Ivy, but also to Arrows,
Speaker 2: who's the first time I've worked with you, so thank
Speaker 2: you so much.
Speaker 3: It was really pleasure.
Speaker 2: Also, so you can find me at Wukong Reborn to
Speaker 2: a Uko and g Reborn at on Twitter or x
Speaker 2: and ig at Threshold Saints as well as Twitter for
Speaker 2: the show account. And I'll have two episodes dropping this week,
Speaker 2: probably three to be honest about it, because I'm a
Speaker 2: little behind, but well yeah, I'll try and get that.
Speaker 3: And you can also follow us up.
Speaker 2: In Great Lodge YouTube channel like and subscribe, and I
Speaker 2: really this was like incredible. Thank you so much, Ivy,
Speaker 2: and thank you Nick for setting.
Speaker 4: It up of course, thank you for joining it, glad
Speaker 4: you made and my man Ethan Indigo what is going on?
Speaker 3: Sir?
Speaker 8: That was awesome?
Speaker 3: Nick.
Speaker 7: Thank you for putting this together. Ivy. Thank you for
Speaker 7: all the insights and points of inspiration. And I think
Speaker 7: I'm a chaos magician officially for all of that. Yeah,
Speaker 7: and yeah, I'm easy to find on the internets and
Speaker 7: I always appreciate talking with you guys. And yeah, please
Speaker 7: everyone please communicate with me if they feel it's so inclined. Again,
Speaker 7: appreciate you.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Havy, thank you for making it
Speaker 4: Ethan and Headless Giant. What is going on, sir?
Speaker 8: Yeah, you're doing. You can find me doing alchemy on
Speaker 8: Mondays with Arrows. You can find me doing the Trialogues
Speaker 8: on Sundays with Ethan. You can find me doing the
Speaker 8: Magical Mailbag on Thursdays with Nick. So check it out,
Speaker 8: Headless Giant, anywhere good stuff is at.
Speaker 4: So thank you, thank you, sir, and finally back to
Speaker 4: you Ivy again. I really I had a blast. It
Speaker 4: was great. There was certain things that we talked about
Speaker 4: that it's just like brought back memories. It's like, Wow,
Speaker 4: I haven't talked about this shit since I was like
Speaker 4: heavily practicing, So it was like your memory lane for
Speaker 4: me too as well. Thank you so much again, I
Speaker 4: really think this was an awesome episode. I'm really happy
Speaker 4: to put this out. Please let everybody know where they
Speaker 4: can find all your stuff.
Speaker 6: Sure, well, I just have to say thank you all
Speaker 6: so much for being so nice.
Speaker 1: I usually don't go on podcasts because it gives me
Speaker 1: an insane amount of anxiety, so I appreciate you all
Speaker 1: being so nice. I feel like this conversation flowed really effortlessly,
Speaker 1: and I just appreciate you all a lot. I'm very
Speaker 1: much an introvert, so thank you for being kind to me. Also,
Speaker 1: I am Ivy the Occultist on YouTube and Instagram, so
Speaker 1: you can either type in Ivy Occultist or Ivy Coorpus
Speaker 1: and that's it.
Speaker 6: That's me.
Speaker 4: Awesome again, thank you so much for coming on, and
Speaker 4: definitely go check out her stuff again if you're interested in,
Speaker 4: you know, the occult and whatever. Magic Again listening to
Speaker 4: that eight what is it again? The exact name for them?
Speaker 4: That eight lessons or eight points?
Speaker 6: Oh, I don't even know. It's pinned on.
Speaker 1: If you go to the homepage of my YouTube channel,
Speaker 1: it should be one of the very first videos that
Speaker 1: are pinned.
Speaker 6: It's like top ten or something.
Speaker 7: Eight essential tips for beginner occultists. Is that it?
Speaker 1: Yes, that's the one I made that so long ago,
Speaker 1: and I actually hate that video, but I'm glad.
Speaker 3: Yo.
Speaker 4: When I heard you say meditation and brain waves, I
Speaker 4: was like, yo, she just say brainwaves, was like, yeah.
Speaker 6: What I said. I stan't buy it, It's just yeah.
Speaker 1: Anyway, it was just filmed a long time ago, and
Speaker 1: I don't like how I look in it and anyways, so.
Speaker 4: All right, yeah, definitely go check it out. But again,
Speaker 4: thank you so much for coming on, and everybody who
Speaker 4: came on too. I really appreciate all your rejects for
Speaker 4: jumping on. This is a really really fun episode. I'm
Speaker 4: glad it happened, and hopefully we'll get to do it
Speaker 4: again one day in the future. And that is it.
Speaker 4: Lada