WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:04.839 You see somethings are going to happen? 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:09.759 What? 3 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:10.599 What's going to happen? 4 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:17.120 What a. 5 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:28.839 Welcome to the occult Rejects. This episode, we got a 6 00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:31.600 very very special guest somebody there that I've been waiting 7 00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:34.520 to get on this show for a long time. We 8 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:37.679 got the Queen of Chaos magic herself. We got Ivy 9 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:41.000 And before we get to her, we are going to 10 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:44.000 introduce the other rejects that we got on the show today. 11 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:46.200 We're going to start it off with Euros. What is 12 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:47.439 going on? Eros? How well? You? 13 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:53.079 Hey? Nick? Thanks for having me on. Yep. I'm arrows Up. 14 00:00:53.119 --> 00:00:56.079 You can find me on YouTube at arrows Up and 15 00:00:56.119 --> 00:00:58.799 you can find me on Twitter at Aeros to Ethos. 16 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:06.799 I am a hellenistic architetypal and functional astrologer and I 17 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:10.319 do a lot of deep dives into metaphysics. 18 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:14.159 Yes, and if you're into Plotinas in the ny Ads, 19 00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:16.200 go check out her stuff and check out the other 20 00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:19.159 shows she has that on here, real great workers. Thank you, 21 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:22.920 thanks Nick, of course. And we got my man, Jena Ninja. 22 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:23.640 What is going on? 23 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:25.799 Freda? What is going on? 24 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:26.159 Boss? 25 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:29.959 Mister ninety three? Okay, So I'm Jena Ninja. I've retired 26 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:31.599 the Ninja for a little bit, but you can see 27 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:33.879 mgin so. You can follow me on Twitter at Wukong Reborn, 28 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:36.439 wuk O and g Reborn. You can check out my 29 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:39.400 show at Threshold Saints on ig and as well as 30 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:42.480 ex Twitter, and you can check out The Gray Lodge 31 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:45.799 at the True Gray Lodge dot com the t r 32 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:49.120 ve Gray Lodge dot com as well as our YouTube 33 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:51.879 like and subscribe you can check us out. We're all 34 00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:54.879 caught up, so all of our X recordings are now 35 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:58.760 uploaded on YouTube so you can hear are like hundreds 36 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:02.840 of hours of speculative specula of narcissism and uh sort 37 00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:06.040 of you know, speculative aonic work basically. 38 00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:08.439 So thank you guys so much. I'm really excited. 39 00:02:09.080 --> 00:02:12.759 I'm Nick knows that I'm started out as a little 40 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:15.800 bit of a chaos magician myself, so this is exactly 41 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:17.479 like the person that I want to speak to. 42 00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:19.240 So thank you so much, Ivy, and thank you to 43 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:19.639 the crew. 44 00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:23.199 Thank you for making it Jen of course, and we 45 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:25.759 got my man Ethan Indigo. What is going on, sir? 46 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:27.840 How are you peace? 47 00:02:27.879 --> 00:02:30.240 Thanks so much for putting this together, Nick and everyone 48 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:34.000 glad to be with you. As always, Ethan Indigo Smith 49 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:37.759 easy to find on all the social media and I 50 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:40.479 got a few books out there even on Amazon, again 51 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:44.800 easy to find, and frequently writing writing articles and so forth. 52 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:47.120 And really appreciate you being here, Ivey. 53 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:50.240 Thank you for making it Ethan. I know you had 54 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:52.280 stuff going on and you made it happen anyway, appreciate 55 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:54.520 it so and last, but not least, before we get 56 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:56.960 to Ivy, we got the Headless Giant himself. What is 57 00:02:57.000 --> 00:02:58.280 going on, sir? How are you? 58 00:02:59.400 --> 00:02:59.919 How you doing? 59 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:04.240 You can find me on x and on YouTube at 60 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:07.639 the Headless Giant, and I have a show with Ethan 61 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:09.879 that we just got done wrapping up here a little 62 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:13.000 while ago, called the Trialogues, and also with a Ricardo 63 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:16.400 and on Mondays. We've got an Alchemy Monday coming up 64 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:18.039 where we're going to break out the socksle it and 65 00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:20.560 actually go through how it works and make a little 66 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:24.080 video about that. And I've also got a show where 67 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:28.240 you can send me your occult slash paranormal experiences at 68 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:30.680 the Headless Giant podcast at gmail dot com and me 69 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:34.080 and Nick read those out on Thursday nights. So if 70 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:36.599 you send us your address, we will send you some stickers, 71 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:40.120 so send those stories into us Headless Giant podcast at 72 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:41.280 gmail dot com. 73 00:03:41.319 --> 00:03:44.280 Thank you, Yeah, definitely. If you have any stories, please 74 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:46.759 don't forget to put in your information. I will send 75 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:49.800 out stickers and just a reminder too. On top of 76 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:54.439 Hellas's busy podcasting schedule by the middle of November, hopefully. 77 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:57.000 I think I think we decided on a Tuesday or 78 00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:59.240 whatever day it is, we should and this will probably 79 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.400 keep me busy for the next three to five years podcasting. 80 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:04.120 We should be yeah, we should. We're going to be 81 00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:09.199 going through Alistair Crowley's seven seven seven, so keep an 82 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:11.280 eye out for that. That should be fun and interesting. 83 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:15.080 Now finally, before finally to the U to the guest 84 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:19.519 after don't know five minutes, four minutes already, Ivy, before 85 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:21.519 I introduce you, I do want to I guess you know, yeah, 86 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:24.720 fanboy you a little bit. You know, this is somebody 87 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:27.040 I look up to in the ecult community, and I 88 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:28.920 do think she has a lot of a lot of 89 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:31.600 good stuff out there for people. And one thing I 90 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:34.759 do want to highly stress is uh, I might screw 91 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:36.120 up the name because it's been a minute, but I 92 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:38.199 think it was that to eight lessons for a beginning 93 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:42.319 ceremonial magician. I highly if people are really interested into 94 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:44.160 that stuff, are getting into it, or want to know 95 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:47.079 what's entailed in it. I have listened to other people's stuff, 96 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:49.480 you know, even David Shoemaker, another person who I think 97 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:52.519 has great, uh you know, advice for a beginner. That 98 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:55.920 video she put out, I think is fucking amazing because 99 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:59.120 she does even tie in science into this stuff, and 100 00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:00.680 that is one of the reasons why I even wanted 101 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:03.079 her on the show, because she does look at the 102 00:05:03.160 --> 00:05:06.600 occult in different ways. In some ways the way I do, 103 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:08.759 you know, a little bit of academic, a little bit 104 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:12.480 of science, and just for me, the way she words 105 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:15.160 it and the way she does that episode, I highly 106 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:17.680 suggest to check that out if you're interested in this stuff. 107 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:19.360 I don't think anybody could have said it any better. 108 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:23.560 So finally, after I'm done blah blah blah and about Ivy, Ivy, 109 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:27.199 please let everybody know who you are, what your deal is, 110 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:28.720 and where people can find your stuff. 111 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:31.879 Sure, well, thank you all for having me on the podcast. 112 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:34.240 I'm really excited because I've been listening to quite a 113 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:36.279 few of your episodes and I think you just got 114 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:38.480 you have such a unique structure with all the different 115 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:40.680 things that you're doing, and Nick, thank you so much 116 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:41.439 for that introduction. 117 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:43.199 I hope I live up to that hype. 118 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:45.759 But no, I just well, I like to tell people 119 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:48.480 I'm just a girl on the internet, so queen of chaos. No, 120 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:51.240 there are so many other amazing chaotes out there that 121 00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:54.680 are doing some fantastic stuff. I'm just really passionate about 122 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:56.800 chaos magic and I talk about it a lot, so 123 00:05:56.839 --> 00:05:58.720 I think people are like, oh, that's the chaos girl, 124 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:00.439 Let's talk to her about chaos magic. 125 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:02.040 So anyways, I'm Ivy. 126 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:05.160 You might know me as iv the Occultist on YouTube 127 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:09.199 and on Instagram, and I recently just wrote a book. Actually, 128 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:12.360 I've been published twice now. The first book was actually 129 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:15.560 with Peter Carroll, which is considered, you know, one of 130 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:17.839 the founders of chaos magic. So I wrote an essay 131 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:21.160 with him and a couple other chaos magicians in a 132 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:24.560 chaos magic anthology, kind of showcasing where chaos magic is today. 133 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:26.800 So that just came out this last July, which was 134 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:28.920 super exciting to be able to work with Peter Carroll. 135 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:31.560 Oh man, I fangirled so hard. It was really really cool. 136 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:34.800 I loved it. And then my first solo book is 137 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:37.639 coming out this next February. It's called Chaos Magic, a 138 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:40.399 Complete Beginner's Guide, and it really is, I mean, a 139 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:44.000 guide for the absolute complete beginner. I have found that 140 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:46.639 a lot of the Chaos Magic books that are written 141 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:48.680 already kind of assume that you have at least some 142 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:51.360 sort of occult knowledge, and they were I mean, if 143 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:53.720 we think of like liber Nol and Psychonaut and even 144 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:57.800 Condensed Chaos, those ones were written by people that would 145 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:00.480 assume that maybe you're coming out of a ceremonial magic scene, 146 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:03.279 or you at least have some understanding of magic and 147 00:07:03.319 --> 00:07:03.800 the occult. 148 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:05.439 But there isn't really. 149 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:08.519 Anything that fits the gap for an absolute beginner coming 150 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:11.079 into the occult for the very first time and needing 151 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:12.000 to know their ABC's. 152 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:14.360 So that's kind of what my book is about. 153 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:17.199 It's structured with theory and praxis, so you get a 154 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:20.000 little bit of both. But yeah, I just make random 155 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:22.480 videos on the Internet and some people like it, some 156 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:24.399 people hate it, and it is what it is because 157 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:27.360 there's trolls and that's fine, but that's me, I guess. Oh, 158 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:30.399 and I'm a science person, so for my day job. 159 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:31.800 I'm a little bit of a labrat. 160 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:33.959 So yeah, as Nick said, I do try to incorporate 161 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:38.480 academia and some scientific perspectives by way of psychology in 162 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:39.560 my ritual magic. 163 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:41.680 So I think that covers everything. I don't know, We're 164 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:43.759 going to go through it all, So that's my little feel. 165 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:45.920 I think that was great. I think you summed it 166 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:46.279 up great. 167 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:47.519 So far cool. 168 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:49.560 Did anybody have anything to ask or say before I 169 00:07:49.560 --> 00:07:53.279 start to continue going on, I have a quick question. 170 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:56.439 So Ivy, one of my co hosts from the Gray 171 00:07:56.480 --> 00:07:59.199 Lodge Solar Ex I'll shout him out, who has been 172 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:02.800 on the show and I were discussing about how a 173 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:06.639 lot of chaos magic is very popular among a lot 174 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:12.079 of left or contemporary Left hand Path practitioners because it 175 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:16.560 is kind of a breaking away of the ceremonial confines 176 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:18.720 you can say, which, of course, they kind of love. 177 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:22.920 So do you have any thoughts on this or like 178 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:28.160 sort of more chaot perspectives on why so many so 179 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:32.240 many people in like the American modern occult scene have 180 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:34.919 a sort of I'm not saying ceremonial magic is bad 181 00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:36.840 in any way. I'm just saying that they've a lot 182 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:38.919 of them have left and sort of embraced some of 183 00:08:38.919 --> 00:08:42.720 these more chaos magic principles. Don Web of course number 184 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:46.240 one maybe, but I don't think he's the only one. 185 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:49.519 I think that, you know, like Toby Chappel's talking about this, 186 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:51.600 I mean a lot of them are who's also been 187 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:52.600 on the shows. 188 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:56.039 Yeah, I mean I'm not a left hand practitioner myself, 189 00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:58.639 but I do have friends that are both chaos magicians 190 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:01.679 and left hand practitioner. And I think if we think 191 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:03.840 about the definitions of like the right hand path versus 192 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:05.559 the left hand path, I know this is a whole 193 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:09.399 philosophical discussion that we could have forever, but there usually is, 194 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:11.759 like the right hand path, there is this level of 195 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:15.720 institutionalized dogma, and with the left hand path there usually 196 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:18.120 is not. At least you know, the friends that I 197 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:21.639 speak to, there seems to be this rejection of dogma, 198 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:24.600 and that really kind of coincides with one of the 199 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:27.559 core axioms of chaos magic theory, which is the avoidance 200 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:30.879 of dogmatism and really kind of paving your own way. 201 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:31.120 Right. 202 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:35.720 It's all about individuality, creativity, freedom, doing what works and 203 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.679 discarding what doesn't. And then there's a certain rebellious nature 204 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:42.919 to chaos magic, so I could see how left hand 205 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:47.000 path practitioners who really are aligned with that rebellious spirit 206 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:50.080 would kind of fall in line with chaos magic principles, 207 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.759 Whereas you know, a right hand path practitioner is going 208 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:55.919 to be more focused on the institution, the community. 209 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:56.240 The righteous path. 210 00:09:56.360 --> 00:10:00.120 Maybe asceticism is incorporated into the things that they're doing, 211 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:03.399 and that's very opposite to what chaos magic preaches, because 212 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:06.879 it's pragmatic. You discard what works, and you are you 213 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:08.120 discard what doesn't work. 214 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:08.879 And then you keep what does. 215 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:11.159 So yeah, I mean, I know a lot of chaos 216 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:13.159 magicians that are not interested at all on the left 217 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:15.360 hand path though too, so I think it's just like 218 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:16.120 a mixed bag. 219 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:18.200 But I guess that's what I would say. I don't 220 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:19.240 know what do you think about that. 221 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.840 I mean, for me, everything that you said, pragmatism number one, 222 00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:28.960 being able to flexibility in your frameworks, this is all 223 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:31.679 very tonentric ideas. Like I consider myself a middle path 224 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:35.679 practitioner myself, so I'm neither on extreme of like asceticism 225 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:38.080 or left hand path, but I definitely will draw from 226 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:41.519 both and draw from like both institutional and sort of 227 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:44.039 like independent ideas from both of those things. But I'm 228 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:47.480 pretty traditional myself, but everything you're saying is in accordance 229 00:10:47.559 --> 00:10:52.840 with contrac So for me, I agree one hundred percent. 230 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:56.519 I guess it's just like it's I think people are. 231 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:02.080 I think people have sort of lost the okay, so 232 00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:04.360 I'll just I'll be really honest. I think a lot 233 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:06.840 of the institutional frames have sort of lost the magic 234 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:10.759 or at least in people's imaginary, and so they don't 235 00:11:10.759 --> 00:11:14.120 necessarily contain like the ritual formulations. Like Nick talks about 236 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.639 this with the oto, like, yeah, you can walk through 237 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:19.320 the Gnostic Mass, and yeah, maybe you get like a 238 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:22.679 little spark here and there and you know, illuminate something, 239 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:24.720 But as soon as soon as the mass is done, 240 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:28.200 it's done. It's like, you know, you might get a 241 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:29.759 little spark, but you're not, like if you want to 242 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:31.879 use cabostical lang, you're not going to death or anything. 243 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:34.960 So I think that people sort of recognize that there's 244 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.080 a kind of emptiness in the ritual. And I'm not 245 00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:40.039 using emptiness in the Buddhist way, but maybe emptiness in 246 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:43.279 the more functional way where it's like you're not really 247 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.480 gaining that much. So I think people are more interested 248 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:49.320 in these processes. I would call them a consciousness and 249 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:53.440 sort of how to make magic work in these pragmatic 250 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:57.720 confines of our minds as well as our everyday material lives. 251 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:00.919 I would agree with that. 252 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:03.799 I think there's a level of being an adversary too, 253 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:06.120 going back to the rebellious spirit, because a left hand 254 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:09.559 path practitioner is going to be working potentially with adversaries, 255 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:11.200 you know, those types of spirits, or maybe they are 256 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:11.879 the adversary. 257 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:13.120 They see themselves that way. 258 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:16.480 And with chaos magicians, I think there's a similar energy 259 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:19.039 there because it kind of looks at ceremonial magic and 260 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:20.960 scoffs a little bit and says, we don't need these 261 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:24.159 long arduous ceremonies. That's all bullshit. We can just cut 262 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:25.440 all of this out and get to the meat and 263 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:28.120 potatoes of what actually works. So yeah, no, it definitely 264 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:29.039 makes sense to what you said. 265 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:33.320 I just want to say that I'm a I'm a 266 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:36.399 I'm a I call myself true neutral, but I am 267 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:39.200 a bit of a trickster. Like I definitely have that element, 268 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:41.759 but I'm not I'm not like evil for evil's sake. 269 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:43.320 So let me just say that. 270 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:46.080 To continue, No, I could resonate with you on that 271 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:47.200 trickster spirit here too. 272 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:49.759 I'm not you know, I'm not like evil, but you 273 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:51.799 know I like to function up? So oh can I swear? 274 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:54.399 Okay? 275 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:56.159 You didn't know if I could or not? So okay, good, 276 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:56.919 You're good. 277 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:00.879 There's like a few questions I want to ask you. 278 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:02.639 I do want to kind of, I guess. I guess 279 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:05.120 at some point get like what brought you even into 280 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:08.559 the occult? But if you can for the listeners, you know, 281 00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:11.080 because my podcast is very like you know, there's people 282 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:12.759 who are into the stuff and people who really don't 283 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:15.679 know anything about it, could you give the listeners an 284 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:18.519 idea of what your idea of chaos magic is. 285 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:21.960 Sure, well, that's a loaded question, first of all. And 286 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:23.879 my definition changes every single day. 287 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:27.080 So that's good though, I think that my opinion I've said, 288 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:29.200 if you're a magician and your ideas, if things keep 289 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:31.559 staying the same, something the fuck's wrong. 290 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:33.159 Yes, definitely. 291 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:35.679 I mean, even after writing a book, I still go 292 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:37.399 back and read what I wrote and then one day 293 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:38.080 I'll disagree with you. 294 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:38.960 I wish I could change. 295 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:41.799 So it's so tough, but I did say in the 296 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:43.720 introduction of my book that ten years from now, I 297 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:45.960 could disagree with everything that I've written in this book, 298 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:48.519 and that is chaos magic. Okay, so at least I've 299 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:51.320 covered my bases there and we're all good. But no, 300 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.840 chaos magic is a post modern magical practice or kind 301 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:57.840 of a philosophy and a perspective on how magic works. 302 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:00.720 So a lot of people will initially think of chaos 303 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:05.200 magic and see sigils, hyper sigils, magical entities, all of 304 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:07.600 these things that are so chaos magic. But I would 305 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:11.639 actually argue that those things are not intrinsically chaos magic. Yes, 306 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:14.559 a lot of chaos magicians will do sigils and hyper 307 00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:17.720 sigils and work with servitors and such, but anybody from 308 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:21.600 any occult practice can really utilize those techniques. What really 309 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:25.720 identifies a chaos magician is someone who prescribes to chaos 310 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:28.960 magic theory, and chaos magic theory kind of combines a 311 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:32.039 bunch of different things, so one of the core axioms. 312 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:34.000 And when I say this, I say it very loosely 313 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:37.080 because there's really no rules and no limitations to a 314 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:40.279 chaos magic practice, and it really does reject dogma. So 315 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:43.159 there is kind of a conundrum in itself because as 316 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.240 we try to define chaos magic, chaos magic doesn't like 317 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:48.679 to be defined and it doesn't prescribe to dogma. So 318 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:50.240 there is a little bit of an issue in even 319 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:52.360 defining it in the first place. But one of the 320 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:54.960 core axioms is using your belief as a tool to 321 00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:58.120 manifest the things that you want and to manipulate your reality. 322 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:01.480 So whether something is a objectively real or not is 323 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:04.759 completely irrelevant. If you can use it in your occult 324 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:07.879 practice to make change in your life, then that works, 325 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:09.840 and that's what we're going to do as chas magicians. 326 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:13.279 An example that I always like to give is with gods. 327 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:16.200 For example, I am dedicated to both. I know that 328 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:19.840 some people pronounce it tough thought, you know, there's a 329 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:23.360 million different pronunciations, but yeah, exactly, and there's really no 330 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:24.440 right or wrong way. 331 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:26.600 But both is what feels best to my mouth when 332 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:30.639 I'm chanting it in rituals. Yeah, yeah, so I just 333 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:31.200 say both. 334 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:34.799 But so in working with this deity, is this god 335 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:39.039 objectively real? Is it an actual Egyptian god that exists 336 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:42.039 in some upper or lower world or another realm or 337 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:44.759 Is it perhaps an aggregre just a thought form that 338 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:47.960 we have fed all of our beliefs and ideas into 339 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:50.600 being real or is it nothing at all? Is it 340 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:53.519 a psychological archetype who cares? Because at the end of 341 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:56.720 the day, chaos magician really prescribes to it's your belief 342 00:15:56.759 --> 00:15:59.720 in that thing that matters, not necessarily whether that god 343 00:15:59.799 --> 00:16:02.159 is real or not. So it doesn't matter if both 344 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:04.240 is real or not. If I'm dedicated to Thoth and 345 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:07.200 I'm doing ritual with both and I'm seeing results manifest 346 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:10.039 in my material reality, that is what matters. So it's 347 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:13.159 very pragmatic. We discard what doesn't work and we keep 348 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:15.759 what does. And then there's other aspects of chaos magic 349 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:18.720 theory as well. There's gnosis. You know, we're working with 350 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:23.679 gnostic states, deconditioning the mind. Again, the avoidance of dogmatism, 351 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:28.000 because there is this idea that dogmatism is it imposes 352 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:31.399 rigidity on the mind and it prevents you from tapping 353 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:35.000 into your creativity and your individual freedom. So again going 354 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:39.080 back to that rebellious spirit and kind of rejecting institutionalized 355 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:41.480 dogma that we were talking about. But yeah, does that 356 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:42.799 answer the question I mean, I feel like I could 357 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:44.639 go on and on about what chaos magic is, but 358 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:46.080 that's my brief. 359 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:46.480 I guess. 360 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:50.120 Yeah, I like that. It's interesting how you like you 361 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:53.279 said something were about like not being a like for me. 362 00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:55.440 I use chaos magic at one point, but I was 363 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:57.759 never a chaos magician. I would never have said that. 364 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:02.159 I was a ceremonial magician and who It's interesting. It's 365 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:04.119 funny how like the way you just explained things like 366 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:06.319 I was like a mix of both, how I was 367 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:09.359 very much a ceremonial magician who still liked kind of 368 00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:13.960 the rigid rules and incorporated the ideas of how chaos magic, 369 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:17.640 sigils and all that stuff was made. I just incorporated 370 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:22.480 that into my ceremony instead of me using planetary squares now, 371 00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:25.200 I'm just you, you know, designing them myselves from taking 372 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:27.440 the letters out of the phrases, you know, or I 373 00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:29.920 might be meditating now on the sigil and stuff like 374 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:32.559 that during my ritual. But uh, yeah, I find it 375 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:35.759 interesting how like you really did kind of like you 376 00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:37.839 really split it up really well, I think with those 377 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.359 two because I see how I was a combination of both, 378 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:43.559 you know, and I and I and I find it 379 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:47.319 interesting how Like I think Gordon White even said it 380 00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:50.960 on the show how with Chaos Magic, it was like 381 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:54.039 something that like kind of came through and just like went, 382 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:56.279 but like I kind of stayed with it. Like it 383 00:17:56.359 --> 00:18:00.079 was almost like out of me being bored technically with 384 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:02.720 what I was doing ceremonial wise, it was like, let 385 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.640 me check out this Chaos Magic stuff. And I was like, oh, 386 00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:07.799 this is kind of fun, like you know, less rules. 387 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:09.920 You know, I can get autistic with my schigil. Now, 388 00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:11.759 I don't need like a Martin's fucking square for this, 389 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:14.680 you know what I'm saying. So uh, And then it 390 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:15.880 was just like, you know, I kind of had like 391 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:17.319 it's big thing, and like, you know, I guess I 392 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:18.599 kind of like put it to the side. But I 393 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:20.799 always kind of kept that though, Like the sigil work 394 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:24.279 and stuff. I always incorporated that even all my candles. 395 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:26.960 You know, if I was you know, I would incorporate 396 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:29.160 some sort of chaos. I guess technically, you know, the 397 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:31.519 way that those sigils are done, it's it's not with 398 00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:34.640 the you know Jamatria, the Hebrew Jamatri. I would put 399 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:36.039 that on this, So you know, it was something that 400 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:39.079 stayed with me. But uh yeah, I'm going on too 401 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.039 long now. But one thing I do want to ask, 402 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:43.000 and this is this is kind of like jumping ahead, 403 00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:44.920 but it was like something that you said made me 404 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:47.000 think of this just now. I can't remember what it was. 405 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:50.240 But when it comes to chaos, magic and the sigils 406 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:53.920 and stuff, do you think it's ever possible you might 407 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:56.039 be a little bit like we might be doing something 408 00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:58.480 a little bit like Giordano Bruno was trying to do 409 00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:01.559 with the art of memory, where we might actually be 410 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:05.440 imprinting things onto ourselves or actually sparking stuff inside our 411 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:08.160 brain like that shape believe it or not, might actually 412 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:10.240 do something regardless even though we're like, oh I just 413 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:13.359 made that, well, it's still actually means something inside your head. 414 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:16.599 Do you think that's possible that you might actually be 415 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:19.079 like it almost might be. This is the worst way 416 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:21.720 to say it, but like almost self m chulture where 417 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:24.119 you're actually trying to reprogram or open up things in 418 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:24.759 your own mind. 419 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:28.680 I do to a limit. Let me elaborate. 420 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:30.799 Okay, yeah, go for it, go for it. 421 00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:32.759 I do have strong opinions on this now. 422 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:35.640 So Austin Osmin's fair is the one that really kind 423 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:38.319 of developed the style of sigilization that you're talking about, 424 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:41.880 or you are creating this artistic form from an intention phrase, 425 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:44.279 right like you take an attention phrase, you reduce it down. 426 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:46.519 You either use the letter method or you can use 427 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:49.039 a wheel, you can just whatever create an image artistically 428 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:51.880 from that intention phrase, and then you enter an altered 429 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:54.279 state of consciousness and sort of charge and activate that 430 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:57.519 sigil in that altered state, or with a chaos magicians, 431 00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:59.799 it's called a gnostic state where you are focusing intently 432 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:03.279 on one intention and then you're implanting that image into 433 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:07.039 your subconscious mind. That way, after you destroy the sigul 434 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:10.079 it can manifest as you go about your day subconsciously. 435 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:13.319 You don't have to be consciously thinking about the intention anymore. 436 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:16.400 It's all a subconscious process. So yeah, I do think 437 00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:19.680 that in that it's specifically with the Austin Osman Spares 438 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:23.200 sigulization methods. I do think that we are implanting things 439 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:27.200 into our psyche, but I don't think that they stick. 440 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:29.480 I've found working a lot. 441 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:30.240 With sigils that. 442 00:20:31.640 --> 00:20:34.759 They kind of like dissipate really quickly, and so I 443 00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:37.559 find that working with servitors or other types of magical 444 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:42.519 entities really create more potent, long lasting brain changes, where 445 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:43.839 as a sigule. 446 00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:46.480 What's that that's makes sense while if you unless you 447 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:47.720 think that, if you're not going to feed the thing, 448 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:49.039 you have to keep going back to it, so it's 449 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:52.039 constantly reminder exactly. 450 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:54.599 It's really great for quick magic. I like to think 451 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.880 of the elements here. You know, we have like fire, earth, air, water, 452 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.599 and fire is always associated to really quick magic, but 453 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:03.119 it does taper off very quickly as well. It doesn't 454 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:05.960 have that strong grounding foundation that the earth element does. 455 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:08.000 So I kind of think of sigils like that, where 456 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:11.559 it's very quick acting and good for smaller intentions, and 457 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:14.000 I do think it can kind of help reprogram the subconscious, 458 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:17.160 but to an extent obviously, and then that magic kind 459 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:19.720 of fades out a little bit. So yes and no, 460 00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:23.559 I guess it's been my personal experience, but you know, 461 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:26.480 I don't know. I think there are some freak incidents 462 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:29.039 too where people have worked with sigels and they've been 463 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:31.960 able to accomplish incredible things. And I think that's just 464 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:36.079 apparent in occult practices of all kinds, where you have 465 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:39.920 that one percent of a miracle potentially happening or some 466 00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:42.599 you know, crazy odds. But I would just say overall, 467 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.119 sigels are good for quick magic, not good for a 468 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:46.240 whole brain rewiring. 469 00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:47.960 I like you. 470 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:51.640 I like you, well, I had something I wanted to 471 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.079 throw in there. I see chaos magic as kind of 472 00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:57.079 a return to the primordial, because what we see is 473 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:01.119 kec you know, right, this frog deity of chaos returning 474 00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:03.759 in the in the Donald Trump presidency of all things. 475 00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:06.880 We see the eight sided or eight pointed star as 476 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:11.039 the star of Ishtar, goddess of love and war. Pretty chaotic, 477 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:13.319 you know. And then we have all these references to 478 00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:16.519 the agency of chaos, and it's sort of like all 479 00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:18.680 of this stuff is bubbling up, and we see this 480 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:21.039 sort of changing of the eons and this sort of 481 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:25.839 milieu of chaotic reality kind of all around us. It's 482 00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:28.559 almost like the fertile ground for you know, a reimagining 483 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:30.079 of what ordering chaos really is. 484 00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:33.799 No, that's exactly right. Chaos magic really is a return 485 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:36.279 to the primordial. It's about working with the idea of 486 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:39.720 primordial chaos where there is no set form yet, and 487 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:42.279 so because there is no set form, we can create 488 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:45.400 whatever kind of reality we want based on our belief 489 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:48.119 and our will as magicians. So no, to your point, 490 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:49.359 I completely agree with that. 491 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:58.039 As well, said anybody else have questions? Er, thank you? 492 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:02.279 Might be a stupid question, but I'm going to ask 493 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:03.799 it anyway. 494 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:05.480 Uh. 495 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:10.519 Platinus has this idea of like the uh, the one 496 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:18.079 kind of overflowing and experiencing itself through like or like 497 00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:29.720 experiencing multiplicity through a scheme of differentiation, and that always 498 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:33.240 made me think of chaos kind of like some of 499 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:36.839 those images of chaos where you have like those two 500 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:41.400 circles kind of coming out of each other, and like 501 00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:44.400 that idea that from the one, there's like the two 502 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:48.519 and the three, and that they are all from the one, 503 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:53.400 but they are different and like everything is different. I 504 00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:57.279 guess I wonder do you think that chaos magic kind 505 00:23:57.319 --> 00:24:02.759 of works in a scheme of different creation or right, 506 00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:07.200 because you're also talking about how nosis is kind of involved, 507 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:13.440 like it's like these new states, these new things novelty. 508 00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:17.720 I don't think that's a stupid question at all. I 509 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:20.200 think that's a great question actually, And I'm not a 510 00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:24.400 philosophy expert. I am very I am a very practical occultist, 511 00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:27.200 So I don't read books unless I absolutely have to. 512 00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:29.079 That sounds absolutely terrible because I know that I said 513 00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:31.319 that I bring in academia, and then here I am like, 514 00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:33.039 I don't give a shit about philosophy and history. 515 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:34.920 No, just kidding, I'm just kidding when I say that. 516 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:37.960 But yeah, so I think to answer your question, that's 517 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:41.119 really difficult because every chaos magician is going to practice 518 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.079 chaos magic differently, and they're going to have a different 519 00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:46.079 view on how chaos magic works. And because it innately 520 00:24:46.119 --> 00:24:50.359 rejects any sort of dogma, I would say that maybe 521 00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:53.799 some chaos magicians might practice from that perspective, but perhaps 522 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:54.519 not all. 523 00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:55.119 Because. 524 00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:01.119 To define that is to add struck sure to the 525 00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:05.000 chaos magic philosophy, which innately rejects structure. So I hope 526 00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:08.359 that that answers your question, but I'm sure some chaots 527 00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:10.160 would definitely perceive it that way though. 528 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:16.079 Thank you. Anybody have a question before I ask the 529 00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:20.640 next one, I don't want to keep your guys nick 530 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.599 all right, yeah, before before, you mentioned servitor and that 531 00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:27.240 is something that I have experienced in using in the past. 532 00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:30.279 Just for the listeners who don't know what that is, 533 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:32.079 and I hate to put you on the spot, Ivy, 534 00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:35.000 But could you maybe explain what is a servitor to you? 535 00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:36.119 Yeah? 536 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:39.359 Sure, So a servitor is a magical entity or a 537 00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:42.240 thought form or some sort of construct that has been 538 00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:45.839 created from the magician. And there's many different perceptions as 539 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:49.000 to what a servitor is. Some people think that it's 540 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:51.880 almost like you're putting a job posting up on a 541 00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:54.880 cosmic bulletin board and then a servitor type entity is 542 00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:55.720 coming in to fill that. 543 00:25:56.039 --> 00:26:01.000 I don't agree to helpe it. I mean, you know, 544 00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:03.039 if people want to believe that, that's fine, that's not 545 00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:08.039 how I've never heard that. Oh really yeah no, for me, 546 00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:10.440 it's very much a mental thought form. 547 00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:15.440 So you are taking the you're taking this intention phrase 548 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:17.359 and with a sigil, you know, you would normally take 549 00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:19.799 the intention phrase, reduce it down, create an image, and 550 00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:22.920 then implant that onto your subconscious mind. But with a servitor, 551 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:27.039 you're actually creating this entity, this being, and breathing life 552 00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:29.480 into that entity. And there is a maintenance to it. 553 00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:32.480 There is, I mean, you're feeding that servitor, You're interacting 554 00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:34.759 with it on a regular basis. So it's almost like 555 00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:36.680 to me, I would describe it the next level up 556 00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:39.519 from a sigil because you do use sigils in the process, 557 00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:41.720 but you're actually creating an entity from it that you 558 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.119 are then interacting with so that it can take on 559 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:47.440 larger tasks. Because as I mentioned beforehand, sigils are really, 560 00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:50.039 you know, great for quick magic, but not really they 561 00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:53.279 don't sustain for very long. So servitors are excellent for 562 00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:55.640 really really big working something that you want to work 563 00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:57.240 on over a longer period of time. 564 00:26:57.799 --> 00:26:58.839 And that's just my perception. 565 00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:02.039 I know that everybody look magical entities differently, but that 566 00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:04.759 is kind of how I actually, you know what, I 567 00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:06.680 do want to add a distinction because if we get 568 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:09.880 into magical entities, I do have a chapter on magical entities, 569 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:13.440 and I talk about servitors versus Tulpa's versus Eggregre's, and 570 00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:15.759 I do want to make a distinction that a servitor 571 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.440 is kind of like a I hate to say it 572 00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:21.799 this way, but a mindless servant, a mindless robot that 573 00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:25.799 does not experience emotions. It does not have autonomy. Although 574 00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:28.960 I will say with my own servitors, the line gets 575 00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:32.480 a little bit blurred because with Tulpa's they do experience emotion, 576 00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:35.680 they do have autonomy, and they can actually create a 577 00:27:35.720 --> 00:27:38.480 full possession of the body, and so I have had 578 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.119 lines blurred where a servitor starts to turn. 579 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:41.880 Into a tulpa. 580 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:44.200 But for the most part, just to kind of get 581 00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:46.920 our definitions straight, I would say that a servitor is 582 00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:50.279 more mindless, no autonomy, no emotion, and it just kind 583 00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:52.000 of helps execute tasks for you. 584 00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:55.400 How do you tell the difference? 585 00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:00.720 This is the argument, No, just kidding, This is an 586 00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:04.079 argument amongst chaos magicians who work with magical entities. So 587 00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:07.519 Tulpa's in my experience and what I've seen from others, 588 00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:11.119 really are more akin to like an imaginary friend. It 589 00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:15.799 is this entity and actually the whole Tulpa mancy community. 590 00:28:16.519 --> 00:28:18.319 I don't want to fully wrap this under the Chao's 591 00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:22.240 magic umbrella because it is almost separate yet parallel to 592 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:24.359 the occult world. A lot of people that are really 593 00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:28.799 really into psychology will actually get into Tulpa mancy and 594 00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:30.799 not even have it be part of any sort of 595 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:34.720 occult workings whatsoever. But some occultists will kind of incorporate 596 00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:37.359 that in so whereas servitors, you know, that word is 597 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:41.119 usually only seen in reference to some sort of occult practice. 598 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:43.920 But yeah, Tulpa's are more like an imaginary friend. And 599 00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:46.799 in my experience, they're so difficult to create, and it 600 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:49.519 takes months and months, if not years, to create this 601 00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:52.640 entity inside your mind that can kind of share the 602 00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:54.839 brain space with you, and there's a lot of there's 603 00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:58.000 a lot that goes into it. There's like parallel processing 604 00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:01.839 that happens with tulpa's. I'm not an expert, so I 605 00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:04.000 actually don't talk about Tulpa's too much in my book. 606 00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:07.440 I kind of just refer people to other Tulpa answers 607 00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:09.759 that I think are great to learn from. So don't 608 00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:12.039 ask me too many questions about Tulpa's, of course, because 609 00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:14.400 I'm not too much of an expert. But yeah, servators 610 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:16.720 is more my jam and where my expertise lies. And 611 00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:20.319 they're much simpler creations, much easier to manage. They don't 612 00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:29.559 normally speak in your head like a Tulpa does, so yeah. 613 00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:32.319 I know for myself when I use the servitor, Like, 614 00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:34.920 I'm not not asking you to tell me what it was, 615 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:37.079 but like when you made when you were I guess 616 00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:40.000 whatever dealt with yours? Did you actually like you have 617 00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:42.000 like a description in your head or on paper, like 618 00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:44.240 you actually constructed what it looked like and gave it 619 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:46.720 a name. Yeah. I did all that, and then I 620 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:48.799 would you know, I think a few times a week 621 00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:51.160 I would like feed it and actually like retell it, 622 00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:54.599 like this is what you're supposed to do, you know. Yeah, 623 00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:59.119 so it is definitely I think as a ceremonial magician too. 624 00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:00.559 It to just be honest, it game a reason to 625 00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:03.039 do rituals, you know. I was like, oh, this is 626 00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:04.880 a reason to do the less of vanishing ritual and 627 00:30:05.480 --> 00:30:08.319 to invoke something. And I don't know, you know so, 628 00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:10.759 but uh, yeah, it's very It's interesting. You know, it's 629 00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:12.599 funny to hear you say like you know certain things. 630 00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:14.240 It just reminds me like, yeah, I remember when I 631 00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:17.599 was doing that, would actually feed the thing. And yeah, 632 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:20.400 now when you mentioned it's funny, I don't have much 633 00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:22.759 experience with Tulpa's and I think it's probably because I 634 00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:27.039 was dealing with messing with chaos magic. There's more of 635 00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:29.359 like kind of like sigils. Then it was servitors. Then 636 00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:30.559 if you really want to take it up, you go 637 00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.119 to edgrigors. You know what I'm saying. And I heard 638 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:34.960 you mentioned, you know, you don't much know much about 639 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.599 Tulpa's but servitors and agregors, And that makes sense because 640 00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:39.160 I feel like that is kind of just like, you know, 641 00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:43.160 stepping it up in chaos magic. What would you hate, 642 00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:45.359 you know again, to put you on the spot for egrigors? 643 00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:47.599 How would you explain those for the people? 644 00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:48.079 Sure? 645 00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.400 No, put me on the spots? Why I'm here? I 646 00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:51.319 love this conversation. 647 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:55.000 So yeah, And Egregor is kind of like a servitor 648 00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:57.759 on steroids. So where a servitor is created by the 649 00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:00.880 mind of one magician for a very specific intention, and 650 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:04.119 Agregor is created by the hive mind, it's by a 651 00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:07.880 group of people. And this can either be consciously or unconsciously. 652 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:11.200 So this gets into a really interesting discussion about people 653 00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.559 unconsciously creating agrigors and even discussing let's say the Christian 654 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:20.039 God for example, going back to objectivity versus subjectivity. Is 655 00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:23.880 the Christian God actually real some gods sitting up in 656 00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:27.160 the clouds in heaven above or is it just an agrigor? 657 00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:29.920 Is it this entity that has been created over thousands 658 00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:33.240 of years of people feeding their ideas, their thoughts, their belief, 659 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:36.279 their love into this thing potentially being real? 660 00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:38.759 So anegrigor really is just. 661 00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:42.599 Like a servitor, but created by potentially thousands of people, 662 00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:46.680 and even covens. I mean, I ran covens for four years, 663 00:31:46.759 --> 00:31:50.119 and I won't share what we did, of course, to specifically, 664 00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:51.839 because I'm not allowed to share those types of things. 665 00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:55.039 But we would even create agrigors. And so you would 666 00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:59.319 during ritual push your energy. I'm trying to how do 667 00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:01.359 I say this without giving too much away, push your 668 00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:04.880 energy and intention towards a specific goal, and everybody in 669 00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:07.160 the group would be focusing on the same thing. 670 00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:08.359 And you would give. 671 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:11.000 This this thing life shape, you would give it a 672 00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:14.440 logo or a sigil, you would give it characteristics and such, 673 00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:17.359 and so you are just a mass group of people 674 00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:19.519 creating this thing. But I really like the idea of 675 00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:22.480 eggregors because it really does beg the question with gods, 676 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:24.839 whether they're real or not, or whether they're just eggregors. 677 00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:29.319 And I also think that companies and institutions, and I 678 00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:33.279 think a lot of people in corporate America unconsciously work 679 00:32:33.319 --> 00:32:37.319 with eggregors through their branding and having their fans and 680 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:40.400 even through media, you know, influencing people and manipulating people 681 00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:44.720 like that to feed their energy and attention into their mascots. 682 00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:46.759 You know, if we think of like Kellogg's or something, 683 00:32:46.759 --> 00:32:48.480 and we think of like the mascot of all these 684 00:32:48.519 --> 00:32:52.480 brands and such, every time that that mascot flashes up 685 00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:54.680 on the screen, are we not kind of giving it 686 00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:56.839 our attention and feeding it a little bit? 687 00:32:57.160 --> 00:32:59.079 Does that not kind of become an aggregor? 688 00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:02.319 This thought for that all of us are either we 689 00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:04.119 love it or we hate it, but we're all feeding 690 00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:07.359 energy into So I love the concept of Egregre's. 691 00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:08.680 I think it's super interesting. 692 00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:12.279 And yeah, to either consciously or unconsciously create them, I 693 00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:13.279 think is really interesting. 694 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.799 Thank you, It was a good way to put it. 695 00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:21.839 One question I do have. I'm wondering, do you think 696 00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:27.160 it's possible? Guess this gets a little bit more conspiratorial, 697 00:33:27.559 --> 00:33:30.200 but do you think it's possible that like the public 698 00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:33.319 can be made to create an Edgarg or not even 699 00:33:33.319 --> 00:33:34.200 realize they're doing it? 700 00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:36.240 Oh? One hundred percent? 701 00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:39.200 I mean, okay, this is coming from me being a 702 00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:43.799 conspiracy theorist and not trusting anyone or anything ever. 703 00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:45.680 Yeah, Oh my. 704 00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:49.200 Gosh, yeah, I mean I so, I was in school 705 00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:52.160 for psychology before I switched my degree in molecular biosciences. 706 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:54.079 I was getting my degree in psychology and I got 707 00:33:54.079 --> 00:33:56.359 to year three and then ended up dropping out because 708 00:33:56.359 --> 00:33:58.559 I decided I didn't want to be a psychologist because 709 00:33:58.599 --> 00:33:59.960 of all of the politics and the bullshit. 710 00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:01.480 I didn't want to do it anyways. 711 00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:04.119 So I had to take a lot of like sociology 712 00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:08.880 classes and psychology of you know, communities and such. And 713 00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:12.880 it's really interesting all the manipulation tactics that become so 714 00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:15.639 apparent and so clear once you know how to spot them, 715 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:18.760 you know, like once you see a cover up or something. 716 00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:23.960 It's just it's wild watching politicians, watching even medical companies. 717 00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:26.800 I mean all of them. All of them are so corrupt, 718 00:34:27.079 --> 00:34:29.239 and I'm just sitting here like, wow, there is They 719 00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:31.719 don't even realize that they're doing a cult hidden shit 720 00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:33.159 right now, but they absolutely are. 721 00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:35.599 So yeah, definitely cool. 722 00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:39.880 Did anybody have any have any questions? 723 00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:41.280 I got one. 724 00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:45.679 So me and Nick follow a lot of strange animals 725 00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:49.639 on Instagram and what they're they're start starting to do 726 00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:51.920 is they have these footpads that they go around and 727 00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:54.719 they touch the button and they you know, speak to 728 00:34:54.760 --> 00:34:56.800 their owners with these sounds that come out of the 729 00:34:56.840 --> 00:35:02.119 buttons and this one cat I've been following loves the 730 00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:06.239 movie Pocahontas, like that's our favorite movie. So this meme 731 00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:10.079 has spread from the human world to the cat world, 732 00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:13.639 and the cat now believes that Pocahontas is real and 733 00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.000 so it's always pushing the button I want to see Pocahontas. 734 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:20.039 So for Halloween, Pocahontas, a person dressed up like Poconas 735 00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:23.320 actually came and visited this cat, and so this cat 736 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:25.880 was having an interaction with the meme that was made 737 00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:29.920 in this cartoon that now it believes the character of 738 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:33.039 Pocahontas is coming to visit it, and so it was 739 00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:35.840 it was really excited and it was saying, when Cano 740 00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:38.280 Pocahontas come back, you know, it's pushing all the buttons. 741 00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:39.039 That's going crazy. 742 00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:44.519 Uh, meme magic has spread from humans into animals. What 743 00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:45.519 are your thoughts on that? 744 00:35:46.360 --> 00:35:48.480 Okay, so I have actually I know exactly what you're 745 00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:51.079 talking about, like not that specific cat, but I've definitely 746 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:54.280 seen the videos where a dog will press the buttons, 747 00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:57.039 you know, and it has their their like speaking certain 748 00:35:57.079 --> 00:35:58.280 words and they're training their. 749 00:35:58.119 --> 00:35:58.760 Dog that way. 750 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:01.760 I don't know if I have anything other than that's crazy, Like, 751 00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:06.280 I don't know, it's just really crazy to me. Yeah, 752 00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.320 I mean to be able to. We're actually reading in 753 00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:10.679 my book club right now. You guys had on Richard 754 00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:13.880 Kachinski recently to talk about his Mind over Magic, and 755 00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:16.079 we're reading that in my book club right now, and 756 00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:19.400 he's talking about programming and we're just in the first 757 00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:21.760 six chapters is what we've covered, but he talks about 758 00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:26.599 you know, programming and conditioning and things like that, and yeah, 759 00:36:26.599 --> 00:36:28.920 it's just it's really interesting. I could go on a 760 00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:33.119 whole rant about like the reality threshold and our cognitive 761 00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:35.920 filters and such, but I definitely think the animals they 762 00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:38.039 may have a lesser version of that, but they still 763 00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:40.360 have that where we can kind of manipulate them and 764 00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:41.960 that's really sad. 765 00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:45.599 But yeah, that's crazy. I guess those are all my thoughts. 766 00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:52.880 I guess I had a question. So you wrote you 767 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:55.800 got to work with Peter Carroll, which is so cool, 768 00:36:57.239 --> 00:37:01.079 and I was wondering, you know, there there's the Peter 769 00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:07.480 Carroll kind of chaos magician, and then like maybe Discordianism 770 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:15.960 type of chaos magician, and like the Discordianism, they get 771 00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:20.679 real weird with it like their apocryphas and stuff are 772 00:37:20.840 --> 00:37:26.679 just really strange and obscure. And I was wondering, like, 773 00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:30.320 could you talk a little bit on the differences between 774 00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:32.800 maybe those schools of thought. 775 00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:37.320 Oh geez, So this is gonna be tough for me 776 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:39.480 to answer because I don't identify with either. 777 00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:42.719 Because the way I practice chaos magic is different. 778 00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:45.719 From both of them. So yeah, I mean, so I 779 00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:48.280 kind of take my own approach. And here's here's the problem, 780 00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:51.119 not necessarily a problem, just an observation with the chaos 781 00:37:51.159 --> 00:37:54.880 magic community because it's not a formal institution, like if 782 00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:57.280 you think of like the Hermitic Order of the Golden Down, Okay, 783 00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:01.679 it has all these rules and regulations, and every lodge 784 00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:03.960 of the Golden Dawn operates similarly. Like they might be 785 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.280 a little bit different in theory, but for the most part, 786 00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:08.760 they kind of have the similar a similar framework, whereas 787 00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:12.599 chaos Magic it rejects that institutionalized dogma. So we don't 788 00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:15.800 have an official logo, we don't have an official set rules, 789 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:18.639 we don't have official leaders in the community. Even I 790 00:38:18.679 --> 00:38:20.719 mean Peter Carroll is seen as one of the founders 791 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:23.079 of Chaos Magic, but he has his own flavor of 792 00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:26.559 practicing chaos magic that doesn't resonate with all of us. 793 00:38:26.920 --> 00:38:30.519 So I think it's hard to classify chaos magicians because 794 00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:33.320 there's so many. I have never met two chaos magicians 795 00:38:33.320 --> 00:38:36.559 that are the same at all, and so I think 796 00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:39.519 that the Discordianism approach and the Peter Carroll approach are 797 00:38:39.559 --> 00:38:42.239 probably the two most well known. But I would actually 798 00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:45.199 say there's so many other flavors of chaos magic than 799 00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:49.000 that Discordianism. I have never really been truly called down 800 00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:51.880 that path, so I actually have no idea. But Peter Carroll, 801 00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:54.000 I've definitely read all of his books. He takes a 802 00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:57.280 lot more of a scientific approach to chaos magic. He 803 00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:00.480 kind of has his own method in theory based on 804 00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:03.280 Oh gosh, I'm going to absolutely busher this if he 805 00:39:03.320 --> 00:39:05.079 ever watches this, which I don't think he will, but 806 00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:08.480 he doesn't watch stuff like this. But you know, his 807 00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:11.320 approach is very much centered around physics because that's his 808 00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:14.360 area of expertise. And he's also he kind of leans 809 00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:16.480 or I don't know if this is true current day, 810 00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:19.239 but in his previous works he leans more towards the 811 00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:24.480 atheistic approach, which I actually disagree with and disagreements are 812 00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:27.400 something that's really important in chaos magic community. We should 813 00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:29.800 be able to disagree with each other and challenge each 814 00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:34.039 other's beliefs and such. So I actually personally feel like 815 00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:36.840 atheism is also a form of dogma. So I know 816 00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:40.800 that atheism rejects Christianity and you know, organized religion and stuff, 817 00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:43.960 but atheism itself is its own form of dogma, which 818 00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:47.639 I think is the antithesis of really what chaos magic 819 00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:52.280 is trying to say. Now, again, this chaos magic changes 820 00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:54.360 over the years. So what chaos magic was in the 821 00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:57.159 nineteen seventies when Peter Carroll was writing about it is 822 00:39:57.320 --> 00:39:58.920 going to be a lot different than what we're talking 823 00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:01.480 about in twenty twenty five. So yeah, I would say 824 00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:03.679 his approach is a lot more scientific, a lot more atheist. 825 00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:06.840 Discordianism can't speak to that too much, But there's also 826 00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:09.559 just so many other flavors out there. 827 00:40:11.239 --> 00:40:14.440 I had a quick question, do you believe that disbelief 828 00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:17.639 has a dispelling effect on other people's spells? Like a 829 00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:21.559 person who disbelieves strongly in a thing can actually create 830 00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:26.599 a sort of field around themselves that causes sort of 831 00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:30.320 strange happenings to dissipate a little bit that. 832 00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:36.199 Yeah, no, I definitely do to an extent. Of course, 833 00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:40.280 it sort of depends on So with the chaos magic perspective, 834 00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:43.679 you might be going through what's called belief shifting or 835 00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:46.719 paradigm jumping, which is where you are intentionally adopting and 836 00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:49.519 discarding beliefs as they suit your magical ritual. 837 00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:51.559 And so if you're working like let's. 838 00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:53.199 Talk about the models of magic for a second, you 839 00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:56.079 have the spirit model of magic, the meta model, the 840 00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:59.320 energy model, the psychological model, and the chaos magician may 841 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.239 adopt one of those models at any point depending on 842 00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:05.480 what they're doing. So if you are fully adopting the 843 00:41:05.480 --> 00:41:08.559 spirit model, let's say for a particular ritual, you are 844 00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:12.480 getting yourself to believe that spirits objectively exist regardless of 845 00:41:12.519 --> 00:41:15.480 your belief in them, then from that perspective, then the 846 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:18.760 answer would be no, because your belief doesn't really matter 847 00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:21.519 too much because you're working with the idea of these 848 00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:22.719 objective spirits. 849 00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:24.400 But if you're working. 850 00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:27.280 From the psychological model or the energy model and such, 851 00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:31.920 I personally do believe that belief is very potent, and 852 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:35.960 your disbelief in something can dispel what you're doing. I 853 00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.679 also want to add another caveat here that sometimes we 854 00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:42.000 think we believe something, but there is a rift between 855 00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:45.000 the conscious mind and the subconscious mind, because you might 856 00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:47.960 think consciously that you believe in something when subconsciously you 857 00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:49.599 really don't, or vice versa. 858 00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:51.119 And so I think we need. 859 00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:53.559 To work with altered states a lot in ritual for 860 00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:56.880 this reason, because when we enter altered states of consciousness, 861 00:41:57.119 --> 00:42:00.000 we drop down into our subconscious mind a little bit more, 862 00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:02.199 into the spirit world a little bit more, and so 863 00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:05.360 we're able to bypass those cognitive filters and really get 864 00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:07.199 down to what we actually believe. 865 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:09.079 So if we're working with our belief and. 866 00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:12.599 Trying to manipulate things, we're implanting it directly into the 867 00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:15.480 subconscious and you don't have that friction of what you 868 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:19.360 think consciously you believe versus what you subconsciously believe. I 869 00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:21.440 think I just went on a whole I don't even 870 00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:23.159 know what the original question was. I was just kind 871 00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:27.519 of rambling, so. 872 00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:28.000 Sorry, I'll jump in really quick. 873 00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:29.559 If that's a retaining I was going to ask if 874 00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:32.480 you had no Yeah, I think what Ivy said was 875 00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:35.480 totally correct, Like, that's correct for every kind of magic 876 00:42:35.559 --> 00:42:38.039 that's not I don't think that's even limited. Like, yeah, 877 00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:40.000 you do drop, we would call it like rigpa, you 878 00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:43.000 drop down into like the fifth state of consciousness, like 879 00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:45.119 that kind of I would call it diamond thunder, but 880 00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:47.679 people can call it whatever they want. It is that 881 00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:51.280 sort of more primordial state, as I'd be said, but 882 00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:53.639 it is. It is like I would say, it's Yosodac 883 00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:55.599 obviously shout out to our series net. 884 00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:59.079 On Cabal, but you know it is so. 885 00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:01.599 But that can be a problem too, as Ivy saying, 886 00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:03.639 because it is the realm of the spirits, it's the 887 00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:07.519 ghost worlds, so certain things can arise in that state 888 00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:11.239 that aren't necessarily real or not real. I always call 889 00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:14.599 it either either or or not. Excuse me, neither nor, 890 00:43:14.679 --> 00:43:17.800 I always say. People just asked me, oh, are God's real. 891 00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:20.559 I'm like, well, it's real and not real. It's neither 892 00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:22.800 nor never either or so. I don't know if you 893 00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:25.360 agree with that, Ivy, but that's often how I sort 894 00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:28.280 of frame it myself. So I agree everything you said. 895 00:43:28.280 --> 00:43:30.280 It is just that this is like the conventions of 896 00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:34.079 like fundamental magic, Like what exactly what you're talking about, 897 00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:35.599 like dropping down to that state. 898 00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:37.639 But then you're gonna go up what a lot of 899 00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:38.920 people would call the will. 900 00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:41.920 You're going to push past that kind of tifferotic or 901 00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:44.719 solar consciousness, and you're gonna, you know, go all the 902 00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:47.960 way however, you know, wherever your whatever, your plan is. 903 00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:51.320 So yeah, I wanted to add that, Uh, there's something 904 00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:53.239 that you were saying, like kind of like the subconscious 905 00:43:53.239 --> 00:43:57.599 and conscious. For me, it just reminded me of when 906 00:43:57.599 --> 00:44:01.639 I was doing shadow work at some point, you know, 907 00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:03.719 when I guess maybe I just started really taking like 908 00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:06.000 you know, I was doing a lot of meditation, just trying, 909 00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:09.119 I guess, like you know, think on certain things. And 910 00:44:09.159 --> 00:44:11.400 at one point I was just realizing that like certain 911 00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:15.079 morals and values that I thought I had, I could 912 00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:17.840 look in different situations of my life and see how 913 00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:21.559 I contradict myself and I'm like, yo, that is fucking deep, 914 00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:24.079 Like my fucking brain is fucked. 915 00:44:26.119 --> 00:44:26.519 I don't know. 916 00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:28.639 And like, honestly, it was like not too long after 917 00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:31.239 that that I start having magical experiences. Sometimes I even 918 00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:33.679 wonder if I even fried myself out, Like even my 919 00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:38.159 own conscious was like this makes no sense, Like why 920 00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:39.199 are we playing this game? 921 00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:42.000 Exactly. There are so many. 922 00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:44.719 I actually have an exercise in my book that works 923 00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:48.719 with journaling about your subconscious beliefs and helping you to 924 00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:53.320 start rewriting those subconscious beliefs. And there's I mean, deconditioning 925 00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:56.679 is such a core part of a chaos magic practice 926 00:44:56.719 --> 00:45:01.639 because you really want to shed societal limitation or societal brainwashing, 927 00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:05.360 even brainwashing from your childhood. We're really trying to deconstruct 928 00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:08.400 and get back to primordial chaos, right, and primordial chaos 929 00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:11.719 has no form, it does not have this the limitations 930 00:45:11.719 --> 00:45:14.519 of ego. So deconstruction is really important. So I like 931 00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:16.199 that you brought up shadow work because I think that 932 00:45:16.199 --> 00:45:19.360 can be very adjacent to some of the deconditioning practices 933 00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:20.320 of chaos magicians. 934 00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:22.880 Yeah, I would even like and you know what, it's 935 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:26.039 funny how you even like mentioned, you know, being conditioned. 936 00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:29.119 I think what even like kind of spurred me into 937 00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:31.559 getting that getting into all that with the shadow work 938 00:45:31.599 --> 00:45:34.159 is like I read the Gida, and in my opinion, 939 00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:36.199 when he's talking about like when he's talking about all 940 00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:39.159 those people on the battlefield, I'm like, in my opinion, 941 00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:41.119 I'm taking it as like all the voices in his 942 00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:44.480 head that have constructed his beliefs in the way he is, 943 00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:46.840 and like, I had to start going back being like, 944 00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:49.400 you know, nothing, nothing. I still love my father or whoever, 945 00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:51.840 or the guy across the street or neighbor, but there 946 00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:54.039 were certain values that they put into my head that 947 00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:56.719 I lived by that I disagree with completely fucking now, 948 00:45:58.199 --> 00:45:59.599 you know. And I had to let that shit. 949 00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:01.480 Go, you know. 950 00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:03.840 So yeah, some deep you know, I did that book, 951 00:46:03.880 --> 00:46:05.960 believe it or not, that scenarios what took me down 952 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:09.119 that hole, you know, of starting to look at myself 953 00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:11.719 and what the fuck is actually making me think the 954 00:46:11.719 --> 00:46:16.000 way I think? Because that's behavior basically. 955 00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:19.000 Well, yeah, I mean, belief is so important, and it's 956 00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:21.719 like this, it's like this dance too, because yes, we 957 00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:24.360 want to feed our belief into something, but not to 958 00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:27.559 the point where it becomes adherence to dogma at the 959 00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:30.840 expense of anything else better that could come your way. 960 00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:32.840 And so I think that's the fine line too, is 961 00:46:32.840 --> 00:46:35.639 that belief in something is okay. Subscribing to something is 962 00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:39.599 totally okay. It's when it becomes this rigid adherence where 963 00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:42.519 you are no longer tapped into your creativity, your freedom 964 00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:44.880 if something better comes along, that's more efficient. 965 00:46:45.159 --> 00:46:46.480 If you're so stuck. 966 00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:48.280 In your ways and you're not even willing to consider 967 00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:51.239 new opportunities or you know, a new way of doing 968 00:46:51.320 --> 00:46:54.039 something in you're occult practice, that is the opposite of 969 00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:57.599 what chaos magic preaches. So yeah, no, I agree with that. 970 00:46:57.760 --> 00:46:59.920 So deconditioning is really important for that reason. 971 00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:10.800 There is a Zen expression of great doubt, great awakening, 972 00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:16.599 little doubt, little awakening, no doubt, no awakening, which I 973 00:47:16.599 --> 00:47:20.239 think is a great profound kind of idea towards your experience, Nick, 974 00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:24.920 And when we spend enough time inside, we all have 975 00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:28.599 that experience. And I love this, this topic of the 976 00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:34.440 individualized pursuit of magic IVY that you're taking on. This 977 00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:44.400 idea of applicability over ritualism is very tai Chi, very Taoist, 978 00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:49.360 and it's all about what works for the individual. And 979 00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:52.679 I think that's an example of why there's so many 980 00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:57.559 different styles and different aspects of tai Chi is because 981 00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:03.039 it's all about the individual what works for them. I 982 00:48:03.960 --> 00:48:07.519 should have known that you were into Thoth by looking 983 00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:12.159 at your book cover. Yeah, and then Nick, when you 984 00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:16.679 mentioned which will be on my radar now that eight 985 00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:24.960 essential tips for beginner occultists. I wonder if you look 986 00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:31.079 at this eightfold symbol, symbology is meaningful in any term. 987 00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:33.480 And I love the cover of your book, by the way. 988 00:48:33.960 --> 00:48:37.239 Oh thank you. Could I actually talk about the cover 989 00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:39.679 for a second, because it was by accident and it 990 00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:41.559 was actually kind of a message. 991 00:48:41.559 --> 00:48:43.079 I was going to ask you about it. Actually that 992 00:48:43.159 --> 00:48:44.199 was gonna be a yeah question. 993 00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:46.639 Yeah. No. I haven't had a chance to talk about 994 00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:51.119 this yet with anybody. But so Moon Books publishing, they're awesome. 995 00:48:51.239 --> 00:48:53.599 Usually authors don't get to choose their covers at all. 996 00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:56.519 It's all up to the publisher, which is wild because 997 00:48:56.599 --> 00:48:59.440 unfortunately some authors get stuck with a really ugly cover 998 00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:01.039 and they can't do anything about it. 999 00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:02.119 It's just the publishing. 1000 00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:06.360 But Moon Books was really great and they were open 1001 00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:08.119 to taking my notes as to what I wanted for 1002 00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:10.760 the cover. So I didn't fully design the cover, but 1003 00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:14.000 I gave them almost the exact concept that they produced, 1004 00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:15.840 which I was happy with. But I was looking at 1005 00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:17.880 the eight point at star because the eight pointed star, 1006 00:49:18.159 --> 00:49:22.119 the chaos star, has kind of become an unofficial symbol 1007 00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:24.679 for chaos magic, which there's never going to be an 1008 00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:27.320 official symbol for chaos magic because again it rejects dogma 1009 00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:29.760 that's never going to be a thing. But it is 1010 00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:31.880 kind of like the unofficial symbol because you know, the 1011 00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:35.199 IoT took it and are incorporating it into their symbolism 1012 00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:38.239 and so on and so forth. But anyways, for the cover, 1013 00:49:38.360 --> 00:49:41.000 I wanted the a point at star, you know, to 1014 00:49:41.079 --> 00:49:44.079 signify chaos magic. And so I was looking on shutter stock, 1015 00:49:44.119 --> 00:49:46.440 which is the only option that I had to really 1016 00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:48.559 be able to find similar images to send to the 1017 00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:50.360 publisher to give them an idea of what I was 1018 00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:52.719 looking for. And I found this one that was really 1019 00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:55.199 beautiful that I was like, Wow, this is the most 1020 00:49:55.239 --> 00:49:57.400 gorgeous eight pointed star I think I've ever seen. It 1021 00:49:57.400 --> 00:49:59.440 looks like it's got cool sigils on it, I mean, 1022 00:49:59.559 --> 00:50:01.480 and I try to dig into it a little bit, 1023 00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:03.639 and I was like, I don't think i've seen this before. Anyway, 1024 00:50:03.719 --> 00:50:05.320 So I sent it to the publisher and I said, hey, 1025 00:50:05.320 --> 00:50:07.079 can we get something like this on the cover. This 1026 00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:07.719 would be cool. 1027 00:50:08.119 --> 00:50:10.320 I showed it to my friends and my friend is 1028 00:50:10.360 --> 00:50:14.039 a ceremonial magician, a solemonic practitioner, and she was like, 1029 00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:16.400 why do you have the first pentacle of Venus on 1030 00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:18.519 the cover of your book, and I was like, oh, 1031 00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:21.599 so that's the first Pentacle of Venus. Okay, got it. 1032 00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:24.480 So, but I actually ended up keeping it because she 1033 00:50:24.519 --> 00:50:26.679 had mentioned she was like, you should get that changed, 1034 00:50:26.679 --> 00:50:28.880 you should change it to something else, because the first 1035 00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:32.639 Pentacle of Venus is all about Venusian energies, right, It's 1036 00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:36.280 like the purest embodiment of Venusian energy. And I actually 1037 00:50:36.280 --> 00:50:38.960 thought that was kind of cheeky and funny because the 1038 00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:43.280 chaos magic scene is so dominated by masculinity, and I mean, 1039 00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:47.239 I don't ever really meet female chaos magicians, and so 1040 00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:49.960 I thought it was cheeky and fun to put Venus 1041 00:50:50.079 --> 00:50:51.519 right on the cover of my book. 1042 00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:53.800 And I was like, you know what, fuck it, let's 1043 00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:54.440 go with Venus. 1044 00:50:54.559 --> 00:50:56.960 Venus is the planetary sphere that I actually work with 1045 00:50:57.000 --> 00:51:00.119 the most in my own personal planetary magic. So I 1046 00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:02.880 thought it was kind of a divine sign from Venus 1047 00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:05.119 that I was on the right track because it's an 1048 00:51:05.239 --> 00:51:07.559 entity I work with quite often. So I was like, 1049 00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:10.320 you know what, Venus, let's go. Let's bring in some femininity. 1050 00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:14.360 And I'm perfectly okay with Venus being on my cover. 1051 00:51:14.440 --> 00:51:17.760 So it's not actually the eight pointed star, but yeah, 1052 00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:20.400 you know it works regardless. Venus rolls over so much 1053 00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:22.679 more than people realize, so I'm happy with it. 1054 00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:26.920 And maybe it'll bring some material abundance. 1055 00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:32.800 Yeah right, bring it a tract attracting all the people 1056 00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:35.880 onto the book cover. I have had so many people say, wow, 1057 00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:38.280 you have such a beautiful book color. It's so attractive, 1058 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:40.000 and I was like, oh, that's funny because it's the 1059 00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:40.960 first pinnacle of Venus. 1060 00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:42.039 It's very attractive. 1061 00:51:42.199 --> 00:51:46.159 So yeah, it's interesting though, even though I know, like 1062 00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:49.159 the eighth point imported star, you know, with Venus, but 1063 00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:50.599 then if you want to go with the number eight 1064 00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:52.920 on the cabalistic tree of life, you would get Toath 1065 00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:56.000 over there, and then that would go with writing and 1066 00:51:56.039 --> 00:51:59.599 all that stuff. So I mean, very very very much 1067 00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:01.239 fitting for you. Actually, I think. 1068 00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:05.039 Yeah, I did actually dedicate this book to Thoth. The 1069 00:52:05.119 --> 00:52:07.440 very first page of my book it straight up says 1070 00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:09.840 this book is dedicated to so thank you for everything, 1071 00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:12.559 Like that's the very first page. So the whole book 1072 00:52:12.639 --> 00:52:14.199 is thanks to him. 1073 00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:16.920 So yeah, you know, there was a lot of times 1074 00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:19.360 when I would do rituals, I would kind of like 1075 00:52:19.559 --> 00:52:23.159 take on his God form beforehand. Yeah, I was very 1076 00:52:23.239 --> 00:52:25.719 much into Tooth for a while. It was a good 1077 00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:29.800 dude for me. What was I going to ask? 1078 00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:30.639 Uh? 1079 00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:34.280 Oh? Yeah, you know, I do have some questions. It's 1080 00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:36.480 kind of questions that sometimes I do ask, just you know, 1081 00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:39.559 occultists that come on or other authors. Uh. I don't 1082 00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:41.880 think I even mentioned him to you, And they're nothing 1083 00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:43.199 too deep. It's just I kind of just want to 1084 00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:47.679 get your idea when it comes to magic. And I 1085 00:52:47.719 --> 00:52:51.079 would say specifically first with Alister Crowley. Now I know 1086 00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:54.800 I don't know how what you're into him, but from 1087 00:52:54.800 --> 00:52:59.280 what you know with him, and then and or other occultists. 1088 00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:03.119 And I'm asking this specifically also because you have a 1089 00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:06.639 little bit more of academic side in science. Do you 1090 00:53:06.760 --> 00:53:10.199 think that any of them are ever in their work 1091 00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:12.559 trying to point to the eyeballs in the brain? 1092 00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:17.679 Oh, you are asking me something I know absolutely nothing about. 1093 00:53:18.519 --> 00:53:21.360 But no, I actually do know a lot about Alister Crowley, 1094 00:53:21.880 --> 00:53:25.320 and because he was actually he's not considered a grandfather 1095 00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:28.679 of chaos magic by any means, but his rebellious spirit 1096 00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:32.679 really kind of set the stage for other occultists to 1097 00:53:32.719 --> 00:53:35.360 be able to develop what was chaos or what is 1098 00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:37.159 chaos magic now? So it was kind of like a 1099 00:53:37.239 --> 00:53:39.679 chain of events and Crowley definitely played a part in that, 1100 00:53:39.800 --> 00:53:42.000 though he's not really credited as any sort of founder, 1101 00:53:42.320 --> 00:53:44.559 but so yeah, I do know of him and I 1102 00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:46.519 could definitely speak to him. But as far as the 1103 00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:49.599 eyeballs and the brain part, absolutely no idea. But I 1104 00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:51.360 know that something that you might be a little bit 1105 00:53:51.400 --> 00:53:52.320 more educated in, So. 1106 00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:53.599 Now I kind of want to hear what you would 1107 00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:54.719 have to say about it. 1108 00:53:54.800 --> 00:53:59.199 Yeah, well, no, I do think so yeah, And you know, 1109 00:53:59.360 --> 00:54:01.159 just a lot of times whenever I've asked other people 1110 00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:03.599 on here, people even associated with like the Oto or 1111 00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:07.480 or or even Thelima, sometimes I'll just ask them. I 1112 00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:10.360 don't think I've really gotten well, there was one person 1113 00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:13.400 after the show kind of confirmed certain things that I thought, 1114 00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:16.960 but for the most about everybody pretty much says no. 1115 00:54:17.679 --> 00:54:19.440 You know, So I was just wondering if you know 1116 00:54:19.480 --> 00:54:23.239 your opinion it sounds crazy. I know it might, uh, 1117 00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:25.639 but I do think, like I'm just gonna put it 1118 00:54:25.639 --> 00:54:26.960 out there. I'm not gonna get into it too much. 1119 00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:29.000 I think his noox formula is all about the eyeball. 1120 00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:32.440 That's my opinion. The eyeball and the pineal glin. So, 1121 00:54:33.800 --> 00:54:35.800 but uh, yeah, I just wanted to ask you that 1122 00:54:36.679 --> 00:54:39.880 another question that sometimes I do ask people. Yeah, I'm 1123 00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:43.000 assuming you meditate, because you did talk about that. That 1124 00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:45.360 was another thing I loved about your eight you know 1125 00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:47.559 lessons or your eight points or whatever. It was the 1126 00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:50.760 first thing you mentioned. I was like, yes, because I 1127 00:54:50.800 --> 00:54:52.599 think it's very important. I even think, like, not to, 1128 00:54:52.719 --> 00:54:54.360 you know, bring his name up again, but I think 1129 00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:57.360 even David Schumacher and living Thelima or at some point 1130 00:54:57.440 --> 00:54:59.599 when he mentions, like, you know, things that you should do, 1131 00:54:59.639 --> 00:55:02.159 I think meditation is the first thing he's like, it 1132 00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:06.400 doesn't sound glorious exciting, but you're going to have to meditate. 1133 00:55:06.679 --> 00:55:12.360 When you meditate, have you ever seen it's almost like 1134 00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:15.039 a pin dot or a blazing star or an eclipse. 1135 00:55:16.519 --> 00:55:19.480 Oh geez, Well, if you ask me about meditation, I 1136 00:55:19.480 --> 00:55:22.440 could talk for thirty minutes to two hours about why 1137 00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:23.719 it's important and all of these things. 1138 00:55:23.719 --> 00:55:24.800 I'm really passionate about it. 1139 00:55:24.840 --> 00:55:28.400 I was actually a Zen Buddhist for a strict Zen 1140 00:55:28.400 --> 00:55:30.880 Buddhists for about five years before kind of switching my 1141 00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:33.679 path to chaos magic afterwards, and so meditation was a 1142 00:55:33.760 --> 00:55:36.199 huge part of my spiritual practice, and it was just 1143 00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:39.559 a very It was a very asthetic approach for sure. 1144 00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:43.760 But no, I can't say usually my meditations. Now I 1145 00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:46.360 will say I usually enter a trance in order to 1146 00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:49.840 I'm also a seer, so that's something that has been 1147 00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:51.480 part of my life for a really long time, so 1148 00:55:51.519 --> 00:55:55.840 in order to gain visions or insight that is divinely inspired, 1149 00:55:55.920 --> 00:55:57.840 or to communicate with spirits. But I can't say that 1150 00:55:57.920 --> 00:56:01.360 I have experienced the eclipse that you're talking specifically. But 1151 00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:03.360 please elaborate, because what do. 1152 00:56:03.320 --> 00:56:03.960 You mean by that? 1153 00:56:04.679 --> 00:56:06.880 Uh? It's uh. I mean I could probably send you 1154 00:56:06.920 --> 00:56:08.440 like one of the shows where I went into it more. 1155 00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:12.480 But like there's a whatever I do claim of across 1156 00:56:12.599 --> 00:56:15.840 the abyss, and it's just an ongoing scenario of scenes 1157 00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:19.880 that I see every time it happens. It starts off 1158 00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:22.840 as this white pin dot that like literally with my 1159 00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:25.199 eyes clos as it feels like there's actual depth in 1160 00:56:25.239 --> 00:56:28.039 my head as I view this thing. And at some point, 1161 00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:31.679 you know, whatever doing whatever I'm doing as I'm meditating, 1162 00:56:31.719 --> 00:56:34.000 it comes closer and turns into an eclipse, and then 1163 00:56:34.840 --> 00:56:37.360 certain things happen after that. And if I let it 1164 00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:42.039 go blast off. So I was just asking, you know, 1165 00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:44.079 that's this is another question to ask people if they 1166 00:56:44.119 --> 00:56:45.039 ever seen an eclipse. 1167 00:56:45.880 --> 00:56:48.800 Wow, No, that's really interesting. I wonder if I always 1168 00:56:48.840 --> 00:56:51.760 wonder the things that we see in meditation, if they 1169 00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:57.320 are conjured specifically for how we would personally interpret them, 1170 00:56:57.400 --> 00:56:59.159 Like it may be an eclipse for you, but it 1171 00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:02.440 might be something for someone else. But then we also 1172 00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:04.599 have people that experience similar things, but that could be 1173 00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:07.719 also similar brain wiring at play. But yeah, I can't 1174 00:57:07.719 --> 00:57:09.079 say that I have experienced that, but I think that's 1175 00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:11.400 really interesting and I'm sure that it's showing up for 1176 00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:12.880 you in the exact way that it needs to. 1177 00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:17.920 Well, thank you, I hope. So yeah, yeah, it was 1178 00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:19.599 just like a lot of times I try to ask 1179 00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:22.360 people about the cruelly thing and the eclipse. I just 1180 00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:26.880 throw that out there. I know in your book, Uh, 1181 00:57:27.679 --> 00:57:29.559 you know, what's funny you were talking about? There's something 1182 00:57:29.599 --> 00:57:32.239 else you just mentioned before we else? Did you say 1183 00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:33.360 that you're into as well. 1184 00:57:34.719 --> 00:57:37.480 A million things? Zen Buddhism, I think is the last 1185 00:57:37.480 --> 00:57:40.920 thing that I mentioned. What else am I into? Psychology? 1186 00:57:41.360 --> 00:57:43.280 I feel like it was something like you contacting spirits 1187 00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:44.239 or something like that. Was it like that? 1188 00:57:45.039 --> 00:57:47.119 Oh yeah during meditative states? 1189 00:57:47.199 --> 00:57:49.760 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that was actually something I 1190 00:57:49.800 --> 00:57:51.000 was like, Damn, I could get her on that for 1191 00:57:51.039 --> 00:57:51.760 a whole episode. 1192 00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:53.760 Yes, you could talk about. 1193 00:57:53.599 --> 00:57:55.880 That, Yeah, but unfortunately it is it is your book 1194 00:57:55.920 --> 00:57:57.679 that I did want to try to promote on here. 1195 00:57:59.039 --> 00:58:02.920 You kind of split that up into like two sections correctly, 1196 00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:06.719 like theory and then practice practice. What was the reason like, 1197 00:58:06.920 --> 00:58:09.400 can you explain to the listeners what's the reasoning for 1198 00:58:09.440 --> 00:58:09.840 you doing that? 1199 00:58:10.639 --> 00:58:10.920 Yeah? 1200 00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:13.320 So my book is split up into two parts. It 1201 00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:15.599 first starts with theory. I think it's the first four 1202 00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:18.199 chapters that are part of theory, and then the last 1203 00:58:18.440 --> 00:58:20.639 three because it's seven chapters in total. I hope I'm 1204 00:58:20.679 --> 00:58:23.239 not forgetting a chapter in my own book are a praxis, 1205 00:58:23.320 --> 00:58:27.079 but the I think any occultist, first of all, from 1206 00:58:27.159 --> 00:58:30.000 any tradition, needs to have a good balance between theory 1207 00:58:30.039 --> 00:58:32.639 and praxis. I see so many people that are leaning 1208 00:58:32.679 --> 00:58:35.039 heavy one way or another. Where we have people that 1209 00:58:35.079 --> 00:58:37.760 are heavy into theory, but then you know, we potentially 1210 00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:40.079 have the chance for armchair magicians who are never actually 1211 00:58:40.079 --> 00:58:42.079 doing the work and never having any sort of divine 1212 00:58:42.119 --> 00:58:45.480 revelations themselves, and so they get into this analysis paralysis 1213 00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:47.320 where all they're doing is reading books but they're never 1214 00:58:47.360 --> 00:58:49.719 actually doing the work. And then we have people that 1215 00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:52.559 are doing practice, which is great and they're developing their 1216 00:58:52.599 --> 00:58:56.519 own nosis, but they may not understand like the historical 1217 00:58:56.559 --> 00:58:59.039 aspects of what they're doing, or you know, they're not 1218 00:58:59.039 --> 00:59:02.320 bringing in the academy that really helps support and improve 1219 00:59:02.400 --> 00:59:04.719 their skills of whatever it is they're doing. So I 1220 00:59:04.719 --> 00:59:07.000 think any occultist of any tradition needs a good balance 1221 00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:11.039 of both theory and praxis. The theory part specifically, really 1222 00:59:11.079 --> 00:59:14.880 goes over chaos magic theory before we even get into sigils, 1223 00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:18.840 hyper sigils, servitors, you know, pop culture magic and invocation 1224 00:59:18.960 --> 00:59:21.440 and all of those things. It's good to understand what 1225 00:59:21.559 --> 00:59:24.719 chaos magic theory even is because chaos magic really is 1226 00:59:24.800 --> 00:59:28.199 a perspective about how magic works. My book isn't going 1227 00:59:28.280 --> 00:59:30.239 to tell you what to do, because that's not what 1228 00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:32.199 chaos magic is about. I'm not going to sit here 1229 00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:34.159 and go, Okay, you must do this. This is stuff 1230 00:59:34.199 --> 00:59:36.760 wanting to fuck that, throw that out the window. The 1231 00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:39.639 chaos magic theory really relates to using your belief as 1232 00:59:39.679 --> 00:59:42.920 a tool, entering a gnostic state prior to ritual and 1233 00:59:43.719 --> 00:59:48.719 conversations about objective versus subjective reality and deconditioning your mind, 1234 00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:50.519 like all the things that we've been talking about in 1235 00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:53.159 this conversation so far. And then once you understand the 1236 00:59:53.159 --> 00:59:57.079 theory part, go play, Go do a crazy invocation and 1237 00:59:57.159 --> 00:59:59.679 bring a god into your body. I know that's probably 1238 00:59:59.679 --> 01:00:02.280 really responsible for me to say, but fuck around and 1239 01:00:02.320 --> 01:00:04.559 find out, you know, be possessed by a demon. 1240 01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:05.239 I don't care. 1241 01:00:05.639 --> 01:00:09.000 Go experiment and do all the things your heart desires, 1242 01:00:11.079 --> 01:00:13.639 but I just want to bring in play. So yeah, 1243 01:00:13.679 --> 01:00:14.519 it's very much. 1244 01:00:15.119 --> 01:00:18.119 That's very much. It's very much how I kind of 1245 01:00:18.159 --> 01:00:21.480 like took on ceremonial magic. I was like, yeah, just 1246 01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:23.480 fuck around and find out I guess. I mean yeah, 1247 01:00:23.559 --> 01:00:25.199 I mean it's kind of like to keep it real, 1248 01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:27.159 even if with the ceremonial magician or I guess even 1249 01:00:27.639 --> 01:00:30.360 cares magician very much like Headless has said it to 1250 01:00:30.360 --> 01:00:32.480 me before, He's like, you know, a regular person, like 1251 01:00:32.559 --> 01:00:34.599 you could have this wall of all these buttons and 1252 01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:37.000 they'll I'll a lot tell you on the label what 1253 01:00:37.079 --> 01:00:39.679 it does. A normal person will just take that for 1254 01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:41.280 what it says. A magician is gonna be like, I 1255 01:00:41.280 --> 01:00:42.559 have to hit every one of these to see if 1256 01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:45.199 it actually fucking does. I have to know from. 1257 01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:47.039 Experience, yep. 1258 01:00:47.320 --> 01:00:49.199 And then they're gonna put on a lamasuit while they 1259 01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:52.440 do it. He could do and like you know, flying 1260 01:00:52.440 --> 01:00:55.119 Spaghetti Monster. I don't know, because it's all about fun 1261 01:00:55.159 --> 01:00:56.840 and creativity and figuring out what works. 1262 01:00:56.840 --> 01:00:57.400 So who cares? 1263 01:00:58.320 --> 01:01:02.920 Yeah, So I've been listening to this podcast about these 1264 01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:07.719 children that have developed a sort of blindfold site, right, 1265 01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:10.320 And so they're what they're doing is they're teaching these 1266 01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:13.719 children to see you all blindfolded. And they've done this 1267 01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:17.320 with blind children, and there's some sort of window that 1268 01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:21.199 opens up for them if they're able to maintain sort 1269 01:01:21.199 --> 01:01:24.719 of like a childlike innocence of mind. Right, So it's 1270 01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:27.559 a lot easier for children to get out of that, 1271 01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:30.320 like you were saying, the conditioned state and then start 1272 01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:33.519 to accept that maybe they're actually seeing without it. But 1273 01:01:33.679 --> 01:01:35.280 the way that they have to do it is they 1274 01:01:35.320 --> 01:01:38.639 have to cheat the mind. Originally by having the blindfolds 1275 01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:40.679 with little opening so that light gets in, so that 1276 01:01:40.760 --> 01:01:44.840 they think to themselves, well, I'm actually cheating. I'm cheating 1277 01:01:44.960 --> 01:01:48.800 to see this figure even though it's you know, actually 1278 01:01:49.079 --> 01:01:51.760 sealed up. So the mind has to be tricked into 1279 01:01:51.800 --> 01:01:54.840 believing that it can see under a blindfold for it 1280 01:01:54.880 --> 01:01:58.519 to actually work. So there's a really interesting angle about 1281 01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:00.880 play there too, because if you're not to play with it, 1282 01:02:00.920 --> 01:02:03.519 if you get frustrated, if you you know, if you 1283 01:02:03.559 --> 01:02:05.920 have an emotional reaction and not being able to do it, 1284 01:02:06.320 --> 01:02:08.000 there's no way that you'll ever be able to teach 1285 01:02:08.039 --> 01:02:09.440 yourself to see without your eyes. 1286 01:02:10.159 --> 01:02:10.840 Got interesting. 1287 01:02:12.360 --> 01:02:14.840 That is so interesting, and that kind of that kind 1288 01:02:14.840 --> 01:02:17.239 of reminds me of all the cognitive biases we have. 1289 01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:19.599 So as adults, we kind of become more rigid and 1290 01:02:19.639 --> 01:02:22.280 solidified in what we think and what we believe, and 1291 01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:24.360 our ego and all of our thoughts about how the 1292 01:02:24.400 --> 01:02:26.360 world works and so on and so forth. And the 1293 01:02:26.360 --> 01:02:28.320 whole goal is to kind of shed that right and 1294 01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:30.639 to go back to the primordial chaos. But if we 1295 01:02:30.639 --> 01:02:32.760 think about just how the brain works in general, if 1296 01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:35.880 we're if I'm examining my environment right now, we have 1297 01:02:36.039 --> 01:02:37.639 all of these cues that are coming in, like the 1298 01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:40.440 lights from my computer and the song of my or 1299 01:02:40.480 --> 01:02:42.880 the sound of my dog being an asshole outside, you know, whatever, like, 1300 01:02:42.880 --> 01:02:45.039 all these different things are coming in from my environment, 1301 01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:48.960 and my brain is going to pass that through a 1302 01:02:49.159 --> 01:02:53.280 reality threshold. And a reality threshold really decides what we 1303 01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:55.800 see and what we don't see. It needs to match 1304 01:02:55.920 --> 01:02:59.440 or pass this reality threshold of our preconceived notions of 1305 01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:02.639 how realcy works. So if we have these this input 1306 01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:05.039 coming in from our external environment and it does not 1307 01:03:05.239 --> 01:03:08.599 match our preconceived notions of what reality is, we actually 1308 01:03:08.599 --> 01:03:10.360 our brain discards it and we don't see it. So 1309 01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:13.480 for example, a spirit, let's say, let's just for the 1310 01:03:13.480 --> 01:03:15.360 sake of it, say a spirit is floating in my 1311 01:03:15.480 --> 01:03:18.239 room right now, I am in a conscious state where 1312 01:03:18.239 --> 01:03:20.920 my brain is constantly filtering things. I'm not even going 1313 01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:23.719 to see that spirit because it doesn't match what I 1314 01:03:23.719 --> 01:03:26.480 would perceive normal reality to be. And so that is 1315 01:03:26.519 --> 01:03:28.960 why we have to drop down into these altered states 1316 01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:31.320 and rituals so we can bypass the conscious mind. But 1317 01:03:31.480 --> 01:03:34.840 what you're saying about the children and having to blindfold yourselves, yeah, 1318 01:03:34.840 --> 01:03:37.159 you kind of have to trick your brain because your 1319 01:03:37.159 --> 01:03:41.400 conscious mind has those filtering mechanisms that we need to bypass. 1320 01:03:41.679 --> 01:03:43.239 And then also just children in general. 1321 01:03:43.360 --> 01:03:46.039 I think that's such an interesting concept because they don't 1322 01:03:46.039 --> 01:03:48.800 have that rigidity that adults have yet, and so their 1323 01:03:48.840 --> 01:03:51.039 brains are just so free form and they can really 1324 01:03:51.400 --> 01:03:54.639 experiment and do incredible things. There's always like that stereotype 1325 01:03:54.719 --> 01:03:57.119 right where it's like the creepy child talking to spirits 1326 01:03:57.159 --> 01:03:58.679 that nobody else can see, and you're like, all right, 1327 01:03:58.719 --> 01:03:59.960 little kid, you're freaking me out. 1328 01:04:00.079 --> 01:04:01.199 I don't really like that. 1329 01:04:02.079 --> 01:04:04.840 And they can see stuff we can't, so yeah, I 1330 01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:06.719 don't know, I'm monologuing, but that's really cool. 1331 01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:13.119 I was thinking too. That makes me think of panpsychism, 1332 01:04:13.599 --> 01:04:19.599 like electrons all having consciousness and like sending information to 1333 01:04:19.679 --> 01:04:23.800 each other like, and it makes me think of almost 1334 01:04:23.880 --> 01:04:28.360 like it seems like these electrical fields in our bodies 1335 01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:33.000 are almost like turned on or off, and I think 1336 01:04:33.079 --> 01:04:37.000 for kids it's almost like they're fully open, fully on, 1337 01:04:37.440 --> 01:04:41.280 and maybe as you get older, you like learn to 1338 01:04:42.400 --> 01:04:47.159 kind of shut off different parts of yourself for whatever reason, 1339 01:04:49.079 --> 01:04:53.440 and so it's like almost to also kind of align 1340 01:04:53.480 --> 01:04:57.599 your conscious with your subconscious, Like I think you really 1341 01:04:57.719 --> 01:05:01.920 have to have a lot of those channels open to 1342 01:05:01.960 --> 01:05:07.000 be able to do that properly. And I was just 1343 01:05:07.039 --> 01:05:12.760 thinking about that, and like some alignment is required for that. 1344 01:05:15.760 --> 01:05:17.760 One hundred percent. I would agree with everything you said. 1345 01:05:19.159 --> 01:05:22.239 I think it should be called nation alignment. Right, So 1346 01:05:22.440 --> 01:05:25.440 it's that naive state where nobody's ever told you you 1347 01:05:25.480 --> 01:05:28.199 can't do it before, So why can't you do it? 1348 01:05:28.599 --> 01:05:30.960 You know, it's it's that nation alignment. I think that's 1349 01:05:31.000 --> 01:05:32.000 that's a good way I put it. 1350 01:05:33.480 --> 01:05:36.239 There's an important point that Ivy keeps springing up. I 1351 01:05:36.280 --> 01:05:38.880 would you slightly obviously slightly different links to describe it. 1352 01:05:38.920 --> 01:05:41.119 But she's talking about the same thing, and we call 1353 01:05:41.119 --> 01:05:43.920 it disaggregation or you can call it, as I like 1354 01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:47.679 to say on Twitter, breaking kleep us same thing. So 1355 01:05:48.239 --> 01:05:52.159 it's you want to break the preconceptual like models of reality, 1356 01:05:52.239 --> 01:05:54.760 but you but you don't want to be fixed in 1357 01:05:54.840 --> 01:05:58.280 the antithesis either. This is something like Headliss said, like 1358 01:05:58.400 --> 01:06:02.559 can disbelieve sort of negate, but negation is not as 1359 01:06:02.599 --> 01:06:03.519 powerful a force. 1360 01:06:04.199 --> 01:06:04.880 It just isn't. 1361 01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:09.199 Belief is much more. It's a polarity unto itself. Almost 1362 01:06:09.800 --> 01:06:13.199 belief is not the antithesis of belief. Disbelief I mean, 1363 01:06:13.320 --> 01:06:17.960 so yeah, I agree. I agree with everything that Aeros 1364 01:06:18.039 --> 01:06:20.559 and Ivy said. It's so important to like, if you 1365 01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:22.440 want to call it shadow work. You can call shadow work, 1366 01:06:23.000 --> 01:06:25.440 but I think that there's even something that about shadow work, 1367 01:06:25.440 --> 01:06:27.840 Like people can get kind of stuck down there, stuck 1368 01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:30.199 in the tunnels of sets, and people call it, and 1369 01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:33.239 like they'll talk about like depression or like all these 1370 01:06:33.239 --> 01:06:35.760 things and that, Yeah, those are like normal human experiences, 1371 01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:38.840 normal human consciousness. Everybody you know goes through their thing. 1372 01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:42.400 But I think, like, really, if you want to truly 1373 01:06:42.400 --> 01:06:44.559 break them or truly disaggregate, you have to kind of 1374 01:06:44.760 --> 01:06:48.639 also let like the negative go the negative sort of 1375 01:06:48.760 --> 01:06:51.760 forces as well. I can't just be like I liked 1376 01:06:51.800 --> 01:06:53.800 why we said at the beginning. It's like I'm not like, 1377 01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:55.239 I'm not a love to impath archristian. 1378 01:06:55.519 --> 01:06:58.159 Yeah, I hear you. I counter this a lot myself. 1379 01:06:58.239 --> 01:07:02.119 So it's hard because you want to bring things into balance, 1380 01:07:02.159 --> 01:07:04.760 into synthesis, but also into rectification. 1381 01:07:06.960 --> 01:07:07.320 Definitely. 1382 01:07:07.400 --> 01:07:09.400 I just wanted to comment really quick on the left 1383 01:07:09.400 --> 01:07:12.960 hand path right hand path dichotomy. I really try to 1384 01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:15.159 embody a middle path, and I actually think that a 1385 01:07:15.159 --> 01:07:18.039 middle path is a healthy, holistic way to go about it. 1386 01:07:18.079 --> 01:07:19.000 Just my personal opinion. 1387 01:07:19.000 --> 01:07:21.400 People can do whatever they want, but I don't even 1388 01:07:21.480 --> 01:07:24.559 use those terms anymore. I always wonder is that kind 1389 01:07:24.599 --> 01:07:27.559 of like an outdated perspective and we're kind of using 1390 01:07:27.559 --> 01:07:30.599 that terminology right because we don't really have better words 1391 01:07:30.599 --> 01:07:32.960 to use. But I do wonder if sometimes it is 1392 01:07:33.159 --> 01:07:36.360 more of an outdated perspective with right hand path versus 1393 01:07:36.440 --> 01:07:37.440 left hand path, because. 1394 01:07:37.280 --> 01:07:39.000 I find that most of us are kind of in 1395 01:07:39.039 --> 01:07:39.440 the middle. 1396 01:07:39.679 --> 01:07:42.719 Even people that identify as left hand path, when you 1397 01:07:42.719 --> 01:07:44.760 look at their practices, they kind of embody a little 1398 01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:46.800 bit of both. So I don't even know if the 1399 01:07:46.800 --> 01:07:49.039 distinction is necessary anymore. Maybe that's a hot take. I 1400 01:07:49.039 --> 01:07:50.400 don't know if that's controversial or not. 1401 01:07:50.559 --> 01:07:53.880 I agree, Oh, I co sign that one hundred percent agree. 1402 01:07:54.079 --> 01:07:56.119 Like that's why I called it the gray Lodge, because 1403 01:07:56.119 --> 01:07:59.559 it's like, yeah, it's bringing in both, it's bringing both ideas, 1404 01:07:59.559 --> 01:08:01.239 but you're not like going to extremes. 1405 01:08:01.280 --> 01:08:02.440 You're just looking at it. 1406 01:08:02.480 --> 01:08:04.440 Maybe you call it nargo union or maybe call it 1407 01:08:04.519 --> 01:08:06.440 nondual or whatever you want to call it. 1408 01:08:06.440 --> 01:08:09.280 Gnostic and you just kind of take it as ideas. 1409 01:08:09.320 --> 01:08:11.280 You don't say, oh, I must go do this just 1410 01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:14.000 because Pigatrick says this, Like no, you're just you're. 1411 01:08:13.880 --> 01:08:15.880 Taking as conceptual ideas. 1412 01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:18.640 Maybe you'll work in some sigil things, or maybe you'll 1413 01:08:18.760 --> 01:08:22.279 even try and recreate the seal, but you know, it 1414 01:08:22.319 --> 01:08:24.520 has to be pragmatic, has to be like about life, 1415 01:08:24.840 --> 01:08:27.039 because we are alive and we're here. It can't be 1416 01:08:27.159 --> 01:08:29.600 like an in negation of that. I think that's what 1417 01:08:29.760 --> 01:08:32.319 my personal critique of the Loft and Path would be, 1418 01:08:32.439 --> 01:08:34.319 is like, not all of it all that. Some of 1419 01:08:34.359 --> 01:08:36.119 it's very life positive, but a lot of it can 1420 01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:39.159 be very nihilistic as well. And I think like Buddhism 1421 01:08:39.279 --> 01:08:41.920 is very life positive. I know people will say, maybe 1422 01:08:41.920 --> 01:08:44.119 fight me, but I think it's I think of it 1423 01:08:44.159 --> 01:08:46.279 as very life affirming, like we have this life to 1424 01:08:46.279 --> 01:08:48.479 do what we choose and to like you know, practice 1425 01:08:48.560 --> 01:08:51.760 arma or practice magic, and yeah, we should do that. 1426 01:08:52.199 --> 01:08:52.800 I think. 1427 01:08:55.880 --> 01:08:58.479 I was going to say to you about the shadow 1428 01:08:58.520 --> 01:09:00.760 work and getting caught up in the shadow work. I mean, 1429 01:09:01.319 --> 01:09:04.359 shadow work is one thing, but if you're not training 1430 01:09:04.399 --> 01:09:09.399 your subconscious like it's you're not going to actually be 1431 01:09:10.279 --> 01:09:12.800 changing anything within yourself. 1432 01:09:14.760 --> 01:09:17.239 That's it. That's a good point. 1433 01:09:17.720 --> 01:09:18.520 I would agree with that. 1434 01:09:18.560 --> 01:09:21.520 Definitely, don't get me started on shadow work because I 1435 01:09:21.560 --> 01:09:23.800 am such a snob when it comes to how people 1436 01:09:23.840 --> 01:09:24.800 talk about the shadow work. 1437 01:09:24.760 --> 01:09:26.159 I don't. Don't even get me going on. 1438 01:09:26.479 --> 01:09:28.680 You know what, one thing I do want to say, 1439 01:09:28.720 --> 01:09:30.800 Maybe this is where where Ivy will agree with too. 1440 01:09:30.840 --> 01:09:32.159 I feel like a lot of people when they talk 1441 01:09:32.159 --> 01:09:33.760 about they're doing shadow work, it's like, no, you're just 1442 01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:38.399 running with your demons right now, like like you stop, 1443 01:09:38.840 --> 01:09:41.520 like you've been dealing with the same thing for six months. 1444 01:09:41.560 --> 01:09:43.279 You're you know, you're enjoying it now. 1445 01:09:43.720 --> 01:09:47.760 Like yeah, that's one of the problems. 1446 01:09:47.840 --> 01:09:51.479 Yeah, but uh, was there anybody else have any other 1447 01:09:51.560 --> 01:09:56.399 questions or anything? No, Jue, I mean I do, well, 1448 01:09:56.439 --> 01:09:56.880 go for it, I. 1449 01:09:57.159 --> 01:10:01.199 Ask so so I I mean, I think that's just 1450 01:10:01.359 --> 01:10:06.079 really interesting because I don't ever associate both with chaos. 1451 01:10:06.239 --> 01:10:10.079 I associate him with order kind of or like a 1452 01:10:10.199 --> 01:10:13.960 balance of the chaos and order. And so I was wondering, like, 1453 01:10:14.039 --> 01:10:20.359 how do you relate to how does Thoth relate to 1454 01:10:20.439 --> 01:10:24.439 your practice? I know that's kind of personal, but whatever 1455 01:10:24.520 --> 01:10:25.640 you will share about that. 1456 01:10:26.319 --> 01:10:28.880 Yeah, I love this question. Actually, that's such a good question. 1457 01:10:29.680 --> 01:10:31.239 I can only talk a little bit about it because 1458 01:10:31.239 --> 01:10:33.520 it's part of my spiritual contract with him that I 1459 01:10:33.560 --> 01:10:36.600 am not able to speak about our relationship to a 1460 01:10:36.640 --> 01:10:39.359 certain level of detail. For a specific period of time. 1461 01:10:39.640 --> 01:10:41.960 I'm still in the five year contract. I think it's 1462 01:10:42.039 --> 01:10:45.319 year three with him, So we have a contract where 1463 01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:49.159 I want to make sure that when I speak about 1464 01:10:49.159 --> 01:10:51.279 something publicly, I want to make this sound so terrible. 1465 01:10:51.279 --> 01:10:52.680 I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about. 1466 01:10:52.800 --> 01:10:54.520 And I don't want to start working with both in 1467 01:10:54.560 --> 01:10:57.319 the first five years and try to assert myself as 1468 01:10:57.319 --> 01:10:59.399 some sort of authority figure on how to work with 1469 01:10:59.439 --> 01:11:01.800 both or who Foth is and so on and so forth. 1470 01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:02.920 I just don't like that. 1471 01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:04.359 Other people can do that if they want to, but 1472 01:11:04.359 --> 01:11:06.279 if I'm going to talk about something with authority, I 1473 01:11:06.319 --> 01:11:07.800 want to make sure I know what I'm talking about. 1474 01:11:07.880 --> 01:11:09.520 So for the first five years of working with him, 1475 01:11:09.560 --> 01:11:11.119 it is part of our contract that I don't really 1476 01:11:11.239 --> 01:11:13.640 share the ins and outs. But I will say that 1477 01:11:13.640 --> 01:11:16.039 from the Chaos magic perspective, it's all about it goes 1478 01:11:16.079 --> 01:11:19.880 back to belief, right, So it doesn't really matter whether 1479 01:11:20.199 --> 01:11:22.279 Foth is an actual god or if he's an eggergorre 1480 01:11:22.359 --> 01:11:25.479 or a figment of my imagination and just a psychological archetype. 1481 01:11:25.600 --> 01:11:27.640 If I am working with him from the perspective that 1482 01:11:27.640 --> 01:11:30.840 my belief in him makes him real and makes that 1483 01:11:31.319 --> 01:11:32.960 and makes change in my reality. 1484 01:11:33.199 --> 01:11:34.600 That's what matters at the end of the day. 1485 01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:36.600 So in working with him, I find that a lot 1486 01:11:36.640 --> 01:11:39.840 of chaos magicians actually work with various deities. It's just 1487 01:11:39.880 --> 01:11:41.760 that the way that they work with them is from 1488 01:11:41.800 --> 01:11:45.680 a different perspective. Because a non chaos magician might work 1489 01:11:45.720 --> 01:11:48.399 with Thoth or Hecatea or whatever God they're working with, 1490 01:11:48.520 --> 01:11:52.119 it might actually believe that that God is objectively real 1491 01:11:52.199 --> 01:11:54.399 regardless of their belief in them. They would believe that 1492 01:11:54.399 --> 01:11:57.439 that God lives in some sort of upper realm, lower world, 1493 01:11:57.640 --> 01:11:59.640 shadow world, you know, so on and so forth, whereas 1494 01:11:59.680 --> 01:12:03.640 the ka is that deity is dependent on the chaotes 1495 01:12:03.680 --> 01:12:04.359 belief in them. 1496 01:12:04.439 --> 01:12:05.880 So I don't really. 1497 01:12:05.680 --> 01:12:09.880 Find any There's no friction really in working with his 1498 01:12:09.920 --> 01:12:12.560 dogma because I'm not succumbing to his dogma, if that 1499 01:12:12.600 --> 01:12:14.920 makes sense. So I still work with both in more 1500 01:12:15.000 --> 01:12:17.600 traditional means, and I really work with him for the 1501 01:12:17.600 --> 01:12:21.880 purpose of writing, because he is kind of a mystical 1502 01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:25.079 being that governs over writing and scripture and things of 1503 01:12:25.079 --> 01:12:27.399 that nature. And just as a writer myself, I write 1504 01:12:27.880 --> 01:12:31.039 nonfiction and fiction. It's I don't ever actually talk about 1505 01:12:31.039 --> 01:12:32.680 that on any of my channels, but I do write 1506 01:12:32.720 --> 01:12:34.239 other stuff outside of the occults. 1507 01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:37.199 So he is very much kind of like. 1508 01:12:37.159 --> 01:12:39.760 A muse of inspiration and I give offerings to him, 1509 01:12:40.119 --> 01:12:43.920 and in an exchange, he gives me inspiration and we 1510 01:12:43.960 --> 01:12:46.600 write together. So yeah, it's actually a really really fun 1511 01:12:46.920 --> 01:12:49.399 relationship to have with him. It just takes a lot 1512 01:12:49.399 --> 01:12:52.600 of I would say discipline, because both the entity that 1513 01:12:52.640 --> 01:12:57.720 I've been working with this both very much likes asceticism 1514 01:12:57.760 --> 01:12:59.840 and discipline. That is one thing that I noticed working 1515 01:12:59.840 --> 01:13:02.359 with this entity versus And I use the word entity 1516 01:13:02.640 --> 01:13:05.159 because I find it's a lot more inclusive than saying god, 1517 01:13:05.199 --> 01:13:06.800 because then we go back to the idea of is 1518 01:13:06.840 --> 01:13:07.520 it a god or not? 1519 01:13:07.720 --> 01:13:08.880 Who knows? I don't care. 1520 01:13:09.359 --> 01:13:11.840 So this entity that I'm working with does tend to 1521 01:13:11.840 --> 01:13:14.319 be a lot more disciplined and rigorous than any other 1522 01:13:14.439 --> 01:13:15.439 entity I've ever worked with. 1523 01:13:15.640 --> 01:13:16.560 And I kind of like that. 1524 01:13:16.720 --> 01:13:19.199 I like when somebody is slapping my wrist a little 1525 01:13:19.239 --> 01:13:21.159 bit and it's like, Okay, get going, we need to 1526 01:13:21.159 --> 01:13:23.880 be disciplined, we need to I really enjoy that type 1527 01:13:23.920 --> 01:13:26.800 of energy as like a very type a personality. 1528 01:13:27.800 --> 01:13:28.520 So yeah, I don't know. 1529 01:13:28.520 --> 01:13:30.239 I haven't really had any friction with it. It's been 1530 01:13:30.319 --> 01:13:31.920 a really really fun experience. 1531 01:13:32.840 --> 01:13:35.000 Well, I was going to bring up william S Burrows 1532 01:13:35.000 --> 01:13:36.920 and his cut up method that's sort of like a 1533 01:13:37.039 --> 01:13:41.479 staple of left hand path chaos magic, and that's working 1534 01:13:41.479 --> 01:13:44.640 directly with these words that you're scrambling up. And then 1535 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.479 you know, it almost like pisss off both so much. 1536 01:13:47.520 --> 01:13:50.279 He's got to interact with you with the with the 1537 01:13:50.319 --> 01:13:53.199 words that he's bringing order to so in some sense, 1538 01:13:53.279 --> 01:13:56.720 you know, it's it's almost like an aggravation that that 1539 01:13:56.800 --> 01:14:00.680 you're trying to you know, produce something of in from 1540 01:14:00.680 --> 01:14:01.319 that aggravation. 1541 01:14:02.319 --> 01:14:04.640 Yeah, I definitely don't take that approach, but that is 1542 01:14:04.720 --> 01:14:07.039 an approach that people can take. 1543 01:14:07.119 --> 01:14:10.680 I guess provocation is an excellent cabalistic tool. 1544 01:14:11.119 --> 01:14:13.199 I'll just say that, I. 1545 01:14:13.199 --> 01:14:16.920 Know, with a very powerful I used to, like I said, 1546 01:14:16.920 --> 01:14:19.199 I used to use Tooth a lot of to Hoody 1547 01:14:20.000 --> 01:14:22.920 even used to have a statue form and everything. I 1548 01:14:23.039 --> 01:14:24.960 used to look at him, you know a lot like uh, 1549 01:14:25.079 --> 01:14:28.239 I guess like being there kind of like the chaos 1550 01:14:28.359 --> 01:14:30.920 as well as in form and the you know, And 1551 01:14:31.000 --> 01:14:34.239 the reasoning for me to even originally start looking at 1552 01:14:34.279 --> 01:14:36.960 it like that is that he's even known from being 1553 01:14:37.039 --> 01:14:39.680 there at the beginning to witness everything come to be. 1554 01:14:40.800 --> 01:14:44.079 You know, he was there to categorize everything. So it's like, 1555 01:14:44.319 --> 01:14:48.319 was he the chaos already watching it, have an experience 1556 01:14:48.399 --> 01:14:50.399 and everything start becoming you know, whatever it is. I 1557 01:14:50.399 --> 01:14:52.600 don't know. So it's like in some way, you know, 1558 01:14:52.640 --> 01:14:54.720 it does his story does even kind of tell you 1559 01:14:54.760 --> 01:14:57.000 he's been there since the beginning. 1560 01:14:59.039 --> 01:15:01.439 Yeah, his story is really really interesting. He has been 1561 01:15:01.439 --> 01:15:04.560 there from the absolute beginning. I know some people would 1562 01:15:04.640 --> 01:15:07.319 argue that maybe some other goddesses or are more ancient 1563 01:15:07.359 --> 01:15:09.720 than him, of course, but yeah, to see his development, 1564 01:15:10.239 --> 01:15:12.359 and then we have like the conversion of the Greeks 1565 01:15:12.359 --> 01:15:14.960 and the Egyptians coming together and merging him with Hermes, 1566 01:15:15.000 --> 01:15:17.680 and then we have you know, Hermeticism and all this stuff. 1567 01:15:18.239 --> 01:15:21.760 His lore is really really interesting. And that's why I 1568 01:15:21.800 --> 01:15:24.560 always bring up the concept of egregres. Are we actually 1569 01:15:24.560 --> 01:15:29.239 working with the original ancient Egyptian deity or are we 1570 01:15:29.279 --> 01:15:32.680 working with something different now, especially with occultism, because now 1571 01:15:32.960 --> 01:15:36.079 we have brought him into so many organizations, so many 1572 01:15:36.079 --> 01:15:40.359 occult rituals, and has this god morphed over time because 1573 01:15:40.439 --> 01:15:43.239 of our beliefs in this god changing and us feeding 1574 01:15:43.279 --> 01:15:46.479 our magical energy into it. So again, that's why I 1575 01:15:46.520 --> 01:15:49.119 go back to do we call it an entity or god? 1576 01:15:49.159 --> 01:15:50.359 I don't know, and it doesn't matter. 1577 01:15:52.520 --> 01:15:55.359 That's a really good point. Is it like even the 1578 01:15:55.399 --> 01:15:58.760 same thing anymore interesting? 1579 01:15:58.920 --> 01:16:00.680 Looks like the Akasha energy field? 1580 01:16:00.680 --> 01:16:09.079 You know, it's like, thank you very much, go ahead. 1581 01:16:07.159 --> 01:16:09.359 Sorry, you know, I was going to say just that 1582 01:16:09.640 --> 01:16:15.319 both embodies the principles over rules and rituals. 1583 01:16:15.720 --> 01:16:17.520 It's all about the principles and do. 1584 01:16:19.279 --> 01:16:22.000 You know, do what you will with those principles, not 1585 01:16:22.039 --> 01:16:23.720 necessarily dogmatic ideas. 1586 01:16:27.319 --> 01:16:30.640 I think the scribes might disagree that worked with him 1587 01:16:30.760 --> 01:16:34.039 forever ago, but also that was a completely different time 1588 01:16:34.119 --> 01:16:38.279 and a completely different, you know, so different reality that 1589 01:16:38.319 --> 01:16:39.640 we're living in nowadays. 1590 01:16:40.199 --> 01:16:41.920 Do you ever see that show American Gods? 1591 01:16:43.520 --> 01:16:44.359 No, I have not. 1592 01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:48.199 I love the toth in that movie that in that show. 1593 01:16:49.479 --> 01:16:52.079 Well, I actually think I could synthesize what Ethan is 1594 01:16:52.079 --> 01:16:53.680 saying and what Ivy is saying, and I think I 1595 01:16:53.680 --> 01:16:56.239 can even make an argument ask to why and adding 1596 01:16:56.279 --> 01:16:58.119 in a little what Nick sad, because like toath is 1597 01:16:58.199 --> 01:17:00.159 very hard like for going to use kwala like it's 1598 01:17:00.239 --> 01:17:03.640 like the eight and so right, So yeah, exactly like 1599 01:17:03.640 --> 01:17:06.199 what Nick said, he's chaos and in form. He is 1600 01:17:06.239 --> 01:17:09.159 the watcher, he is the witness, and maybe that's his 1601 01:17:09.279 --> 01:17:12.239 consciousness as well, maybe that's our consciousness because Hoade is 1602 01:17:12.279 --> 01:17:15.359 linked to the Bene Elohim, the sons and daughters of Man. 1603 01:17:15.760 --> 01:17:17.359 Sank just saying. 1604 01:17:17.640 --> 01:17:21.319 But also I think, you know, I think he's a 1605 01:17:21.319 --> 01:17:24.359 god of syntax, and just is just my personal I'm 1606 01:17:24.399 --> 01:17:27.680 not a pagan, I'm not like, you know, like all that, 1607 01:17:27.720 --> 01:17:30.520 but I think you think he's the god of word order, 1608 01:17:30.760 --> 01:17:33.720 ritual word order, because this is something we have in NTRA, 1609 01:17:33.920 --> 01:17:36.800 like we have the idea of ritual syntax, ritual grammars. 1610 01:17:37.359 --> 01:17:39.560 And so I think that Ethan's right that he can 1611 01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:41.680 be a god of like how to remix it into 1612 01:17:41.720 --> 01:17:45.920 a coherent, cogent way. But he isn't necessarily like it's 1613 01:17:46.000 --> 01:17:49.640 it's still within a certain set of rules. But maybe 1614 01:17:49.680 --> 01:17:54.439 it appears as opposite or appears as backwards, so but 1615 01:17:54.520 --> 01:17:57.279 it's still adhering to a certain set of rules. Maybe 1616 01:17:57.279 --> 01:17:59.159 just the other polarity of it. I don't know, that's 1617 01:17:59.199 --> 01:17:59.920 just an idea I had. 1618 01:18:00.199 --> 01:18:07.479 H Well, doesn't he order chaos? So I guess it's 1619 01:18:07.560 --> 01:18:11.159 just kind of interesting like that would kind of fit 1620 01:18:11.239 --> 01:18:14.760 perfectly with chaos magic, because that's what, in a way, 1621 01:18:14.800 --> 01:18:20.880 you're doing, right, You're ordering chaos. You're ordering that primordial 1622 01:18:23.439 --> 01:18:25.920 and into a form. 1623 01:18:26.319 --> 01:18:29.159 That's actually the most beautiful way to say that. You 1624 01:18:29.239 --> 01:18:31.399 were saying it that way. No, it's so true, because 1625 01:18:31.439 --> 01:18:34.000 that's what the chaos magician does. You take primordial chaos 1626 01:18:34.000 --> 01:18:36.520 and you manipulate your reality to whatever you want it 1627 01:18:36.560 --> 01:18:36.720 to be. 1628 01:18:36.880 --> 01:18:38.479 So yeah, and you create order from that. 1629 01:18:39.199 --> 01:18:42.560 It's pretty well done, very nice, right. 1630 01:18:43.119 --> 01:18:46.479 A lot of you know, podcasters think that chaos magic 1631 01:18:46.560 --> 01:18:48.960 is is the goal is to produce more chaos in 1632 01:18:49.000 --> 01:18:53.439 the world, and it's like, really, I mean, can't you 1633 01:18:53.479 --> 01:18:54.800 look into it a little bit more? 1634 01:18:54.920 --> 01:18:58.880 And that is what I'm actually doing. Can I just 1635 01:18:59.079 --> 01:19:00.600 can I just go off on that for a second? 1636 01:19:00.800 --> 01:19:04.760 Go for one of the most annoying things ever, One 1637 01:19:04.800 --> 01:19:07.279 of the biggest misconcessions about chaos magic is that it's 1638 01:19:07.279 --> 01:19:09.439 so chaotic and we're just trying to create chaos and 1639 01:19:09.479 --> 01:19:13.079 discord and whatever. Some people might but also every occultist 1640 01:19:13.119 --> 01:19:15.600 of there's so many different traditions where there's always going 1641 01:19:15.640 --> 01:19:17.640 to be those people that are trying to cause chaos 1642 01:19:17.640 --> 01:19:20.399 and strife. Okay, So it is not intrinsically chaos magic. 1643 01:19:20.439 --> 01:19:23.399 Chaos magic is about working with primordial chaos. And I 1644 01:19:23.399 --> 01:19:25.800 think people get tripped up because of the word chaos 1645 01:19:25.800 --> 01:19:28.159 in chaos magic, and they think it just means, you know, 1646 01:19:28.239 --> 01:19:30.920 causing strife and chaos in the world, and that that 1647 01:19:30.960 --> 01:19:34.199 really drives me crazy, especially because there's this element of 1648 01:19:34.319 --> 01:19:38.239 record keeping and discipline that comes into a chaos magic practice, 1649 01:19:38.359 --> 01:19:41.399 especially if you are performing belief shifting also known as 1650 01:19:41.439 --> 01:19:45.319 paradigm jumping, and you're doing invocations, and you really should 1651 01:19:45.359 --> 01:19:48.319 be keeping a record and you should be disciplined in 1652 01:19:48.359 --> 01:19:51.640 your practice. So it's actually not disorganized at all. Most 1653 01:19:51.640 --> 01:19:53.680 of the chaos magicians that I know are some of 1654 01:19:53.720 --> 01:19:56.680 the most disciplined occultists that I've met, and also the 1655 01:19:56.720 --> 01:20:00.000 most well versed occultists that I've met, because they've tried 1656 01:20:00.279 --> 01:20:03.279 a bunch of different things, they've experimented, they've kept their records, 1657 01:20:03.520 --> 01:20:06.119 and so to say that chaos magic is just disorganized 1658 01:20:06.199 --> 01:20:08.479 is honestly an insult, and it really irritates me. 1659 01:20:08.840 --> 01:20:11.760 So that's one of the biggest misconceptions. I can't stand 1660 01:20:11.760 --> 01:20:13.439 it well. 1661 01:20:13.479 --> 01:20:16.159 When it comes to the occult is tones of misconceptions. 1662 01:20:16.680 --> 01:20:19.640 Yeah, for sure, for sure, that's something I think this 1663 01:20:20.399 --> 01:20:21.079 had no go go. 1664 01:20:21.680 --> 01:20:23.880 I just want to say, I think that's what I 1665 01:20:24.159 --> 01:20:27.760 was speaking to about Discordanism and how Discordanism is much 1666 01:20:27.760 --> 01:20:31.680 more of an ethos. I would say, it's not necessarily like, oh, yeah, 1667 01:20:31.680 --> 01:20:33.960 we're going to pray to Airis. Like obviously you talked 1668 01:20:33.960 --> 01:20:38.119 about Austin Osman Spare and his like use of sigils 1669 01:20:38.119 --> 01:20:41.319 as words, like because all of his sigils have poems 1670 01:20:41.359 --> 01:20:43.479 and like, I'm very fond of this as well as 1671 01:20:43.479 --> 01:20:45.800 like someone who like dabbles in writing, and I'm sure 1672 01:20:45.800 --> 01:20:48.479 Ivy is as well. Like his stuff is for me, 1673 01:20:48.520 --> 01:20:51.600 it's the most interesting because he incorporates both image and work, 1674 01:20:51.640 --> 01:20:56.000 which I think is really powerful. But no, I think 1675 01:20:56.359 --> 01:20:58.880 I'm sorry, I totally forgot what I was saying, but no, 1676 01:20:58.960 --> 01:21:01.600 I Discordanism, So I think, yeah, this a ethos, it's 1677 01:21:01.640 --> 01:21:04.000 not necessarily like, yeah, there are people, They're sure, there 1678 01:21:04.039 --> 01:21:05.840 are people who like, we're going to pray to Eris 1679 01:21:05.840 --> 01:21:08.000 and you know, like you can treat her like it's 1680 01:21:08.000 --> 01:21:11.199 a real entity and like thing, Yeah, sure, okay, but 1681 01:21:12.000 --> 01:21:14.960 you know it's also just like we're going to cause chaos. 1682 01:21:15.039 --> 01:21:17.720 We're gonna, you know, deconstruct everything. We're going to be 1683 01:21:17.760 --> 01:21:21.119 the rebels against everything. And it's and as I be saying, 1684 01:21:21.159 --> 01:21:23.319 like we have to be pragmatic. It's twenty twenty five, 1685 01:21:23.479 --> 01:21:26.199 Like it's not about destroying the world time, it's about 1686 01:21:26.239 --> 01:21:28.000 like we have to make of this world like what 1687 01:21:28.079 --> 01:21:30.640 we can. I think is much more of a pragmatic 1688 01:21:30.640 --> 01:21:36.520 approach to magic, and like a pragmatic approach to life, pragmagic. 1689 01:21:36.600 --> 01:21:37.000 I like that. 1690 01:21:39.319 --> 01:21:42.279 There we go, so teaching that in your great love. 1691 01:21:46.640 --> 01:21:49.279 If you guys don't mind, only because unfortunately we do 1692 01:21:49.359 --> 01:21:52.079 have an I have another show at six o'clock. I 1693 01:21:52.119 --> 01:21:57.119 will probably wrap it up, Ivy. I mean, unfortunately, we 1694 01:21:57.119 --> 01:22:00.119 could probably go on for hours about certain things, and 1695 01:22:00.319 --> 01:22:02.560 I would hopefully would love to get you on again 1696 01:22:02.600 --> 01:22:04.800 in the future. I thought this was an amazing and 1697 01:22:04.920 --> 01:22:08.359 amazing talk with you. Yeah, you really fit right in 1698 01:22:08.399 --> 01:22:10.239 with us. I had a blast having you on. It 1699 01:22:10.279 --> 01:22:12.840 was better than I expected. Put it that way. And 1700 01:22:12.920 --> 01:22:15.439 before we let you tell everybody where they can find 1701 01:22:15.439 --> 01:22:17.840 all your stuff and everything, I'll have the other people 1702 01:22:17.880 --> 01:22:20.159 on the show there are the rejects, remind everybody where 1703 01:22:20.159 --> 01:22:24.399 they can find their work and Errows first up, let 1704 01:22:24.479 --> 01:22:26.520 everybody know where they can find all your stuff. Please. 1705 01:22:27.520 --> 01:22:31.279 You can find my stuff on YouTube at Arrows Up 1706 01:22:31.359 --> 01:22:36.880 and on Twitter at Arrows to Ethos. Check it out. 1707 01:22:37.640 --> 01:22:39.880 Thank you appreciate it. Yes, definitely go check out and stuff, 1708 01:22:39.920 --> 01:22:43.560 especially if you're the neoplatinism. My man jin what is 1709 01:22:43.600 --> 01:22:44.239 going on? Innji? 1710 01:22:45.039 --> 01:22:47.199 Thank you so much, boss, and thank you to the panel, 1711 01:22:47.239 --> 01:22:49.840 and thank you especially to Ivy, but also to Arrows, 1712 01:22:49.880 --> 01:22:52.439 who's the first time I've worked with you, so thank 1713 01:22:52.439 --> 01:22:52.880 you so much. 1714 01:22:52.880 --> 01:22:53.720 It was really pleasure. 1715 01:22:54.720 --> 01:22:57.800 Also, so you can find me at Wukong Reborn to 1716 01:22:57.840 --> 01:23:00.520 a Uko and g Reborn at on Twitter or x 1717 01:23:01.079 --> 01:23:04.439 and ig at Threshold Saints as well as Twitter for 1718 01:23:04.520 --> 01:23:08.079 the show account. And I'll have two episodes dropping this week, 1719 01:23:09.439 --> 01:23:11.159 probably three to be honest about it, because I'm a 1720 01:23:11.159 --> 01:23:13.199 little behind, but well yeah, I'll try and get that. 1721 01:23:13.960 --> 01:23:15.159 And you can also follow us up. 1722 01:23:15.119 --> 01:23:19.399 In Great Lodge YouTube channel like and subscribe, and I 1723 01:23:19.800 --> 01:23:22.119 really this was like incredible. Thank you so much, Ivy, 1724 01:23:22.119 --> 01:23:23.359 and thank you Nick for setting. 1725 01:23:23.119 --> 01:23:26.479 It up of course, thank you for joining it, glad 1726 01:23:26.520 --> 01:23:29.560 you made and my man Ethan Indigo what is going on? 1727 01:23:29.720 --> 01:23:29.840 Sir? 1728 01:23:32.920 --> 01:23:33.720 That was awesome? 1729 01:23:33.880 --> 01:23:34.079 Nick. 1730 01:23:34.199 --> 01:23:36.199 Thank you for putting this together. Ivy. Thank you for 1731 01:23:36.239 --> 01:23:39.600 all the insights and points of inspiration. And I think 1732 01:23:39.800 --> 01:23:49.119 I'm a chaos magician officially for all of that. Yeah, 1733 01:23:49.159 --> 01:23:53.000 and yeah, I'm easy to find on the internets and 1734 01:23:53.159 --> 01:23:57.119 I always appreciate talking with you guys. And yeah, please 1735 01:23:57.399 --> 01:24:00.640 everyone please communicate with me if they feel it's so inclined. Again, 1736 01:24:00.720 --> 01:24:01.239 appreciate you. 1737 01:24:01.319 --> 01:24:03.840 Thank you so much, Havy, thank you for making it 1738 01:24:03.880 --> 01:24:06.520 Ethan and Headless Giant. What is going on, sir? 1739 01:24:07.680 --> 01:24:09.960 Yeah, you're doing. You can find me doing alchemy on 1740 01:24:10.039 --> 01:24:12.560 Mondays with Arrows. You can find me doing the Trialogues 1741 01:24:12.600 --> 01:24:14.840 on Sundays with Ethan. You can find me doing the 1742 01:24:14.920 --> 01:24:17.920 Magical Mailbag on Thursdays with Nick. So check it out, 1743 01:24:17.960 --> 01:24:20.720 Headless Giant, anywhere good stuff is at. 1744 01:24:20.880 --> 01:24:25.520 So thank you, thank you, sir, and finally back to 1745 01:24:25.520 --> 01:24:28.039 you Ivy again. I really I had a blast. It 1746 01:24:28.079 --> 01:24:30.600 was great. There was certain things that we talked about 1747 01:24:30.600 --> 01:24:32.359 that it's just like brought back memories. It's like, Wow, 1748 01:24:32.359 --> 01:24:33.960 I haven't talked about this shit since I was like 1749 01:24:34.159 --> 01:24:37.479 heavily practicing, So it was like your memory lane for 1750 01:24:37.560 --> 01:24:41.039 me too as well. Thank you so much again, I 1751 01:24:41.119 --> 01:24:43.359 really think this was an awesome episode. I'm really happy 1752 01:24:43.399 --> 01:24:46.159 to put this out. Please let everybody know where they 1753 01:24:46.159 --> 01:24:47.239 can find all your stuff. 1754 01:24:48.079 --> 01:24:49.439 Sure, well, I just have to say thank you all 1755 01:24:49.479 --> 01:24:50.560 so much for being so nice. 1756 01:24:50.600 --> 01:24:52.720 I usually don't go on podcasts because it gives me 1757 01:24:52.760 --> 01:24:55.520 an insane amount of anxiety, so I appreciate you all 1758 01:24:55.560 --> 01:24:58.640 being so nice. I feel like this conversation flowed really effortlessly, 1759 01:24:58.640 --> 01:25:01.399 and I just appreciate you all a lot. I'm very 1760 01:25:01.479 --> 01:25:04.840 much an introvert, so thank you for being kind to me. Also, 1761 01:25:05.119 --> 01:25:08.000 I am Ivy the Occultist on YouTube and Instagram, so 1762 01:25:08.079 --> 01:25:10.199 you can either type in Ivy Occultist or Ivy Coorpus 1763 01:25:10.239 --> 01:25:10.800 and that's it. 1764 01:25:10.880 --> 01:25:11.199 That's me. 1765 01:25:12.039 --> 01:25:14.560 Awesome again, thank you so much for coming on, and 1766 01:25:14.640 --> 01:25:17.760 definitely go check out her stuff again if you're interested in, 1767 01:25:17.800 --> 01:25:20.960 you know, the occult and whatever. Magic Again listening to 1768 01:25:21.000 --> 01:25:23.880 that eight what is it again? The exact name for them? 1769 01:25:24.039 --> 01:25:26.399 That eight lessons or eight points? 1770 01:25:26.479 --> 01:25:28.960 Oh, I don't even know. It's pinned on. 1771 01:25:29.199 --> 01:25:31.000 If you go to the homepage of my YouTube channel, 1772 01:25:31.039 --> 01:25:32.600 it should be one of the very first videos that 1773 01:25:32.640 --> 01:25:33.279 are pinned. 1774 01:25:33.279 --> 01:25:36.720 It's like top ten or something. 1775 01:25:36.960 --> 01:25:40.800 Eight essential tips for beginner occultists. Is that it? 1776 01:25:41.039 --> 01:25:43.399 Yes, that's the one I made that so long ago, 1777 01:25:43.439 --> 01:25:45.039 and I actually hate that video, but I'm glad. 1778 01:25:46.000 --> 01:25:46.159 Yo. 1779 01:25:46.239 --> 01:25:48.439 When I heard you say meditation and brain waves, I 1780 01:25:48.479 --> 01:25:51.880 was like, yo, she just say brainwaves, was like, yeah. 1781 01:25:54.239 --> 01:25:56.800 What I said. I stan't buy it, It's just yeah. 1782 01:25:56.840 --> 01:25:58.680 Anyway, it was just filmed a long time ago, and 1783 01:25:58.720 --> 01:26:01.119 I don't like how I look in it and anyways, so. 1784 01:26:02.720 --> 01:26:05.439 All right, yeah, definitely go check it out. But again, 1785 01:26:05.479 --> 01:26:07.159 thank you so much for coming on, and everybody who 1786 01:26:07.439 --> 01:26:09.359 came on too. I really appreciate all your rejects for 1787 01:26:09.479 --> 01:26:12.399 jumping on. This is a really really fun episode. I'm 1788 01:26:12.399 --> 01:26:14.239 glad it happened, and hopefully we'll get to do it 1789 01:26:14.279 --> 01:26:16.600 again one day in the future. And that is it. 1790 01:26:16.920 --> 01:26:17.239 Lada