Speaker 1: What kind of customer can be a flexible that can
Speaker 1: buy power from a grid when it's available, but then
Speaker 1: when there's demand elsewhere can shut off. And the answer
Speaker 1: is a bitcoin mind.
Speaker 2: Do you think eventually it might make sense to diversify
Speaker 2: your bitcoin holdings into these track buy.
Speaker 1: Institutions, No question, Absolutely it does, and we will.
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Speaker 2: welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host Tony
Speaker 2: Edward and joining me today is Matt Schulz, who is
Speaker 2: the co founder, executive chairman, and CEO of clean Spark Now.
Speaker 2: Clean Spark is one of the largest and most recognizable
Speaker 2: bitcoin mining companies in North America. Matt, it is great
Speaker 2: to have.
Speaker 1: You, Tony. Thanks for putting this together. It's fun to
Speaker 1: be here, absolutely, Matt.
Speaker 2: I think it's great timing to be chatting about bitcoin
Speaker 2: mining and where we're at in the cycle. And you know,
Speaker 2: there's a lot happening with the governments looking to establish
Speaker 2: the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve. You are part of some of
Speaker 2: the meetings, so I have a lot of questions. Are
Speaker 2: you But I love to kick it off with your background.
Speaker 2: Tell us about where you're from. Uh, you know, what's
Speaker 2: your professional background? And how did you discover bitcoin?
Speaker 1: Got it? Yeah? Thank you? So small town boy. I
Speaker 1: grew up in a little town called land Or, Wyoming,
Speaker 1: about five thousand people that lived there, so tiny graduating class,
Speaker 1: and it was it was a terrific place to grow up.
Speaker 1: If you wanted to play a sport, you played a sport.
Speaker 1: There weren't tryouts. We just didn't have enough warm bodies,
Speaker 1: so it was it was a lot of fun. My background,
Speaker 1: I've always been on the finance side, focused on energy
Speaker 1: and a number of different endeavors. And how I how
Speaker 1: I came to find bitcoin is is a bit of
Speaker 1: a convoluted story, but it's kind of interesting. I was.
Speaker 1: I was involved in the traditional energy space, oil and
Speaker 1: gas and putting together project finance, and as a father,
Speaker 1: you know, I was. I was fortunate to have six kids.
Speaker 1: And some of these oil and gas property that we
Speaker 1: bought had been poorly maintained. There was poor containment on
Speaker 1: wastewater handling. There were a number of issues, and I
Speaker 1: recognized that we were doing a pretty bad job as
Speaker 1: far as stewardship of the planet. So I made a
Speaker 1: pivot in my career to start focusing on more alternative
Speaker 1: sources of power, renewable energy. We had some you know,
Speaker 1: as we worked over and improved some of these projects,
Speaker 1: the wastewater handling trucks that we operated had a big
Speaker 1: logo on the back and it said, we didn't inherit
Speaker 1: the planet from our parents, We've borrowed it from our children.
Speaker 1: So kind of gave me the drive to do better.
Speaker 1: And so we developed a portfolio of technology regarding energy
Speaker 1: generation and the conversion of carbonaceous speedstock into a clean
Speaker 1: sind gas, so the convert waste energy. And then we
Speaker 1: were deploying those solutions in a number of different applications
Speaker 1: and we ended up partnering with and then subsequently acquiring
Speaker 1: a micro grid technology company, so we were building you know,
Speaker 1: you think about the US energy grid as the macro grid,
Speaker 1: well micro grid would be a campus based or you know,
Speaker 1: a smaller version of that grid, so you have energy generation, distribution, controls,
Speaker 1: and storage. So we were building mission critical microgrids at
Speaker 1: places like Marine Corps based Camp Pendleton and at embassies
Speaker 1: around the world. And then we started to deploy those
Speaker 1: solutions in data centers and we could model those solutions
Speaker 1: around a number of different vectors, so cost avoidance, resiliency,
Speaker 1: or greenhouse gas avoidance, and so you know, at the
Speaker 1: military basis, the mission was to make sure that NAVI gation,
Speaker 1: guidance and communications always stayed live regardless of what was
Speaker 1: going on with the San Diego Gas and Electric grid.
Speaker 1: So through that process, we then developed a communications protocol.
Speaker 1: So if you in the state of California, as an example,
Speaker 1: if you produce solar at your facility, there are opportunities
Speaker 1: push some of that power back to the grid for revenue.
Speaker 1: It's called demand response, and so we were we owned
Speaker 1: the virtual top node and virtual endode communications protocol that
Speaker 1: will allow a private business to sell power back to
Speaker 1: a public utility. So through that process we developed a
Speaker 1: really healthy understanding of the interaction with the utility grid
Speaker 1: and how delicate the balance is because you you know,
Speaker 1: the grid has to produce enough power such that the
Speaker 1: demands are met at peak demand, but then not overbuild capacity,
Speaker 1: so you're running power to ground when demand wanes, and
Speaker 1: so you know, understanding that their periods of time that
Speaker 1: their surplus power and there are periods of time that
Speaker 1: the grid is somewhat constrained. The idea behind a flexible
Speaker 1: load started to really present itself as an obvious solution
Speaker 1: to fix the grid instability and the challenges we have
Speaker 1: with the domestic power grid. In conjunction with that, we
Speaker 1: were working with the Minister of Energy in South Africa
Speaker 1: to put community based microgrids in play to assist in
Speaker 1: areas that there were energy poverty. And the challenge was
Speaker 1: we designed and presented a solution for half a dozen
Speaker 1: community based microgrids, but even the World Bank wouldn't touch
Speaker 1: that without a flexible off take. And so it prompted
Speaker 1: this spirited discussion between our leadership team and our board
Speaker 1: of directors, and that was what kind of customer can
Speaker 1: be a flexible load that can buy power from a
Speaker 1: grid when it's available, but then when there's demand elsewhere
Speaker 1: can shut off. And the answer is it's it's not
Speaker 1: a traditional data center, and it's not a manufacturing facility,
Speaker 1: and it's not you know, any number of different applications.
Speaker 1: But what it is is bitcoin mining. So bitcoin mining
Speaker 1: became kind of the panacea for grid stabilization and load
Speaker 1: balancing because these machines have no memory. You can ramp
Speaker 1: them up, ramp them down over clock, under clock, and
Speaker 1: you can do that based on you know, economic conditions
Speaker 1: that are driven by you know, the the the UH,
Speaker 1: the capacity and the availability on the grid. So you know,
Speaker 1: we we decided to focus as America's bitcoin minor, on
Speaker 1: identifying pockets of power that are underutilized. And if you
Speaker 1: think back four or five decades ago in our country,
Speaker 1: there was an abundance of manufacturing and mining and sawmills
Speaker 1: and all different types of industry that's subsequently gone offshore.
Speaker 1: So you've got these little communities that many decades ago
Speaker 1: funded municipal bonds to acquire their participation in the utility
Speaker 1: grid and the generation and the distribution. And then when
Speaker 1: when industry left, you got all these these beautiful little
Speaker 1: communities that have pockets of power that are underserved that
Speaker 1: you know, there there there's an opportunity that a company
Speaker 1: like us can go in. We can buy that power
Speaker 1: from the local utility, which in most instances is the city,
Speaker 1: and they can make a margin on that power, and
Speaker 1: so it makes a difference in those communities. And then
Speaker 1: we also bring high tech jobs. So we like to
Speaker 1: tell the story. You know, as a father, one of
Speaker 1: one of my kids' favorite movies growing up was the
Speaker 1: movie Cars, and it's a story about that little town,
Speaker 1: Radiator Springs that was this bustling, happening metropolis until the
Speaker 1: freeway came by, and then that town was forgotten. And
Speaker 1: that's kind of the way that we look at our
Speaker 1: community partners. Many of these are, you know, the real
Speaker 1: world version of Radiator Springs and so's that's kind of
Speaker 1: my long answer to my bitcoin story and how we
Speaker 1: got there. But what it's resulted in is a tremendous
Speaker 1: partnership with thirty three small towns across the United States,
Speaker 1: where we're securing the global blockchain. We're creating high paying jobs,
Speaker 1: We're pushing revenues and profits back to these small towns.
Speaker 2: That's amazing. So you essentially started as an energy infrastructure company,
Speaker 2: is that right, and helping working with folks and providing
Speaker 2: new ways of getting clean energy, and then branched out
Speaker 2: into bigcoin money.
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. We have a portfolio of intellectual properties
Speaker 1: surrounding energy generation, distribution and controls, and so you know,
Speaker 1: we are patent portfolio regarding these micro grid solutions and
Speaker 1: islanding away from the grid and working in concert with
Speaker 1: the grid and revenue generation demanded response. That's really fundamental
Speaker 1: in our DNA and so we we we I think
Speaker 1: we approached the bitcoin mining industry from an entirely different
Speaker 1: perspective than everybody else. In fact, when we when we
Speaker 1: acquired our second facility in Norcross, Georgia, Axios sent a
Speaker 1: journalist out to kind of talk about what we were doing.
Speaker 1: And at the time, Axios was, you know, kind of
Speaker 1: lukewarm on bitcoin. And the journalist wrote in his article
Speaker 1: that clean Spark is not a team of bitcoin bros
Speaker 1: trying to understand energy markets. Rather, it's a team of
Speaker 1: energy professionals iterating in the bitcoin mining landscape. And so
Speaker 1: it was a contrast and a differentiation and I think
Speaker 1: it served us very well. Oh absolutely.
Speaker 2: And you know there's still that stigma out there around
Speaker 2: bitcoin mining. Just this past weekend, I was at a
Speaker 2: book festival selling my book about crypto and someone walked
Speaker 2: by and said, this is you know, bitcoin is bad
Speaker 2: for the environment and it's using tons of energy. And
Speaker 2: I'm like, maybe in the early days, you know, certain
Speaker 2: energy sources were used there were not great. But it's
Speaker 2: very different now the miners are working with the grid
Speaker 2: and the governments. It's it's very different. In twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: No question about it. We built a facility it's over
Speaker 1: two hundred megawatts in a little town called Sandersville, Georgia,
Speaker 1: and Georgia was, you know, previously the textile manufacturing capital
Speaker 1: of the world. So a lot of these small towns,
Speaker 1: I mean, there was kalin mining, there were timber mills,
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of textile manufacturing, and they
Speaker 1: had surplus power. And in Georgia, just give you a
Speaker 1: quick example, they when Southern Company went through bankruptcy decades ago,
Speaker 1: forty nine small towns in Georgia formed a co op
Speaker 1: and they they partnered up and created MIAG, which is
Speaker 1: the Municipal Electricity Authority of Georgia, and they funded through
Speaker 1: municipal a stake in Plant Vogel, which is the largest
Speaker 1: nuclear power plant deployment in this country in the last
Speaker 1: thirty years. And so these towns now own some of
Speaker 1: the generation, and the cities, through this co op, become
Speaker 1: the utility. So they've got power available, but nobody buying it.
Speaker 1: So Clean Spark goes in and we negotiate, we buy
Speaker 1: the power from the generation at cost, and then we
Speaker 1: allow them a small margin on every kiloot hour of power.
Speaker 1: In this particular applications, it's primarily nuclear power. So it
Speaker 1: also kind of supports our mission of identifying supporting non
Speaker 1: carbon emitting sources of power, and that was really key
Speaker 1: early on, and it's evolved a bit to be more
Speaker 1: about grid stabilization and decreasing the reliance on coal fired
Speaker 1: peaker plants rather than overemphasizing the single load. But anyway,
Speaker 1: the city is now our utility, so they're able to
Speaker 1: buy much more power, and in buying more power, it's
Speaker 1: the cost co effect, so it decreases the utility costs
Speaker 1: for all the ratepayers in the jurisdiction. They then make
Speaker 1: a margin on every kilo what hour we buy, which
Speaker 1: is millions of dollars, and as a component of the
Speaker 1: Territorial Act in Georgia, those dollars are reallocated back to
Speaker 1: the community for you know, bike paths and splash pads
Speaker 1: and schools and infrastructure. Well then on top of that
Speaker 1: we pay sales tax, and the sales tax on the
Speaker 1: utility is designated to stay in the jurisdiction it was generated.
Speaker 1: So in this small town, Sandersville, Georgian, there was an
Speaker 1: interview that was on WSBTV in Atlanta, and the mayor
Speaker 1: had talked about the fact that in forty years in
Speaker 1: public service, the city had never operated outside of a
Speaker 1: deficit until clean Spark was there. Now not only was
Speaker 1: the city and the green but that the surplus sales
Speaker 1: tax had created a burden that they had to redistribute
Speaker 1: that sales tax somewhere else, so they reallocated it to
Speaker 1: property taxes in the community. So not only are we
Speaker 1: monetizing stranded power for this city, we're now also decreasing
Speaker 1: the cost per kiloot hour for the rate payers. And
Speaker 1: then where the sales tax is decreasing, the property tax exposure.
Speaker 1: So it becomes a win win win all the way
Speaker 1: along for these communities, and all the while we're incentivizing new,
Speaker 1: renewable and clean energy generation.
Speaker 2: That's profound, and I think message, a message like this,
Speaker 2: a story legis needs to get out there because a
Speaker 2: lot of people have the ole perception and the fact
Speaker 2: that you can monetize excess energy or energy that would
Speaker 2: have been wasted or blown off for what it may
Speaker 2: be and monetize it in bitcoin mining is a great opportunity.
Speaker 2: And then you know, you as a mining company being
Speaker 2: able to support a local committee in this way is
Speaker 2: pretty pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's you know that these opportunities are abundant
Speaker 1: and it's interesting because to your point, a lot of
Speaker 1: people saw bitcoin mining as the evil empire, or you
Speaker 1: know the New York Times article, for example, where they
Speaker 1: wrote the story that bitcoin mining consumes more water than
Speaker 1: the top three major metropolitan cities in the United States.
Speaker 1: Well that if you consider that the water that flows
Speaker 1: through a hydro electric dam is consumed, then that would
Speaker 1: be true. But in reality, the water doesn't disappear, it
Speaker 1: spins a turbine. It's not consumed, it's not used, it's
Speaker 1: not polluted. This is this is hydro electric power generation.
Speaker 1: So you know, the media had an agenda and you
Speaker 1: know certainly don't want to let don't want to let
Speaker 1: the facts get in the way of a good story.
Speaker 1: So you know, you you create these narratives about how
Speaker 1: bad bitcoin is and how how harmful it is for
Speaker 1: the environment and the emissions that these computers put off,
Speaker 1: none of which are true. So you know, we work
Speaker 1: in partnership with the grid. We can build out faster
Speaker 1: than our colleagues in high performance compute. So Yenne, Wyoming,
Speaker 1: for example, clean Spark has one hundred megawats there and
Speaker 1: the other bidder for that power is Microsoft. I mean
Speaker 1: they're driver nine to Iron away from our facility, and
Speaker 1: we prevailed, not because clean Spark's a better credit risk
Speaker 1: than Microsoft, but because to build a proper HPCAI data
Speaker 1: center that Microsoft expect it's a four to five year endeavor.
Speaker 1: We were able to take that same property and monetize
Speaker 1: those megawats for the benefit of the community and the
Speaker 1: utility in less than six months. The beauty in that
Speaker 1: process is it's duplicatable. We can run in, monetize the power,
Speaker 1: support the blockchain, build a bitcoin mining facility, and in
Speaker 1: that particular instance, it's a fully modular immersion cool deployment,
Speaker 1: so ultra high efficiency, less this sound emission than an
Speaker 1: air cooled facility, and completely modular and portable. So we
Speaker 1: go in bringing the electrical infrastructure, put in helical piers,
Speaker 1: mount the pods, fill the tanks, put the machines in,
Speaker 1: and we start hashing, and then we can start building
Speaker 1: a proper data center behind that. So when that data
Speaker 1: center is complete over the next three four years, we
Speaker 1: can then pivot those megawatts to high performance compute. We
Speaker 1: can take that bitcoin mining deployment and duplicate that again
Speaker 1: in another location. So we're building ahead of AI to
Speaker 1: stabilize the demand curve. In fact, about eighteen months ago,
Speaker 1: I was invited to go to mar A Lago, and
Speaker 1: this was when President Trump was candidate Trump, and he
Speaker 1: asked half a dozen bitcoin miners to join him in
Speaker 1: a round table, and he talked about the fact he
Speaker 1: had previously not been an advocate for bitcoin and for
Speaker 1: bitcoin mining, but what he understood is there's a demographic
Speaker 1: of a voter base that a very passionate about bitcoin,
Speaker 1: and maybe he didn't have all the proper information. So
Speaker 1: we worked with their campaign to help kind of line
Speaker 1: out their digital digital currency plan, I guess, so to speak.
Speaker 1: And in that meeting, we talked about how fast we
Speaker 1: could deploy and how we would enable we're kind of
Speaker 1: plowing the road for AI in HPC. And he grabbed
Speaker 1: his assistant. He said, his Bill still here, and she said,
Speaker 1: I think he is, and go grab him. So, you know,
Speaker 1: thirty seconds later in walk Senator Haggarty from Tennessee and
Speaker 1: you know Tennessee TVA, the largest federally owned public utility.
Speaker 1: Sits down at the table and President Trump said, Bill,
Speaker 1: is it correct that what these guys are telling me
Speaker 1: that bitcoin mining actually stabilized the grid and it shaves
Speaker 1: the peaks and the valleys, and it's a load balancing tool,
Speaker 1: but it also paves the way for AI and he
Speaker 1: said it absolutely is, and he talked about, you know,
Speaker 1: clean Spark specific operations within Tennessee and so to to
Speaker 1: have played a role in guiding the digital asset kind
Speaker 1: of strategy for the administration and to change the narrative
Speaker 1: for bitcoin and bitcoin mining has been a huge honor
Speaker 1: for myself and our team here at clean Spark to
Speaker 1: be able to kind of evangelize how valuable bitcoin mining
Speaker 1: is and then you know, to take it to another level.
Speaker 1: You know, when when the Russia Ukraine War started, we
Speaker 1: used o FAC sanctions to kind of shut down Russia's
Speaker 1: access to global financial networks. Well, when we met with
Speaker 1: the Biden administration and we talked about the value bitcoin mining,
Speaker 1: their feedback was, we don't want bitcoin mining. We don't
Speaker 1: want anywhere in the United States. We want it out
Speaker 1: of here. Well, the challenge becomes what happens when there's
Speaker 1: no block space for companies like Michael Sailors or US
Speaker 1: investors that maybe have a bitcoin on coinbase. What happens
Speaker 1: if there's kind of a reverse o fact impact and
Speaker 1: you can't access block space to buy, sell, transfer bitcoin.
Speaker 1: So we look at bitcoin mining domestically, and now the
Speaker 1: President and many members of Congress agree bitcoin miners, domestic
Speaker 1: bitcoin miners are really a national security there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, for sure. And obviously the United States
Speaker 2: President Trump signed it an executive order to establish a
Speaker 2: strategic Bitcoin reserve. The first phase is using the bitcoin
Speaker 2: they've confiscated over the year, some bad actors and so forth.
Speaker 2: But I saw you were at a meeting recently with
Speaker 2: Michael Sailor and other industry leaders to try to explore
Speaker 2: how the United States can now purchase bitcoin. Tell us
Speaker 2: about that meeting and what were some of the takeaways
Speaker 2: for you.
Speaker 1: It was really awesome. I mean, we spent a week
Speaker 1: in New York and then a part of the week
Speaker 1: in d C. And then later that same week in Nashville,
Speaker 1: and in all of those different cities. For example, I
Speaker 1: got to spend a great deal of time on September
Speaker 1: tenth with President Bush and to have him recap what
Speaker 1: was going on that morning in Sarasota when he was
Speaker 1: reading to those students, and what happened when the towers
Speaker 1: were attacked and when when so to have that interaction,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a kind of a pinch me moment
Speaker 1: to go from you know, here here you are as
Speaker 1: America's bitcoin minor, which enter prior administration is a completely
Speaker 1: villainized concept, to now having an opportunity to sit with
Speaker 1: the former president of the United States and the current
Speaker 1: president of the United States and to talk about what
Speaker 1: our industry means for the nation. And so that was
Speaker 1: a that was a blessing. And then we went to
Speaker 1: we went to Washington, d C. And there were a
Speaker 1: number of meetings we had. We had an opportunity to
Speaker 1: speak to French Hill, to Tom Cotton, to Mike Johnson,
Speaker 1: hosted the meeting, very gracious guy. I first got to
Speaker 1: know Mike Johnson at the Crypto Ball during the inauguration.
Speaker 1: And the cool thing about all of these relationships is
Speaker 1: that they genuinely care about and are interested in bitcoin
Speaker 1: and compute and how that becomes something that that strengthens
Speaker 1: the US energy policy, but also the adoption of bitcoin
Speaker 1: in the Strategic Reserve. So that was a separate meeting.
Speaker 1: The picture that we posted on Twitter where I was
Speaker 1: next to Tom Lee from Funstratt and then Sailor was
Speaker 1: was there. We actually had the opportunity to speak to
Speaker 1: a number of representatives and senators and Bernie Moreno was there,
Speaker 1: and Marshall Blackburn was there, and there were there were
Speaker 1: a number of very vocal proponents of bitcoin in attendance
Speaker 1: at the meeting. And you know, Senator Moreno, I think
Speaker 1: I think bitcoin got Bernie Moreno elected. I mean, the
Speaker 1: the Bitcoin Voter Project and and Bitcoin voters in general
Speaker 1: put a lot of resources behind Bernie Moreno's campaign and
Speaker 1: he has done just a phenomenal job in being an
Speaker 1: advocate for US there. And he made a statement in
Speaker 1: this session and this isn't something that's you know, introduced
Speaker 1: as policy and it's not pending a vote, but just
Speaker 1: his his assessment. And you know, Michael Saylor made a
Speaker 1: statement about Seward's folly and about how the United States
Speaker 1: has made decisions acquiring Alaska or Texas, so whatever the
Speaker 1: case may be, that we're you know, not well received
Speaker 1: and everybody thought we were we were silly to do
Speaker 1: these things. And you know in retrospect that you know,
Speaker 1: the what's created the amazing country that we call home
Speaker 1: today is were these decisions. And he said, bitcoin is
Speaker 1: that next decision Gate, and Senator Moreno in that meeting said,
Speaker 1: you know the challenge, and I'm paraphrasing, but he said,
Speaker 1: the challenge that I have is that, you know, since
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, our currency has been decoupled from gold,
Speaker 1: and the gold that we own is in Fort Knox,
Speaker 1: but nobody really knows what's there. And Senator Moreno, to
Speaker 1: his credit said with bitcoin, the entire network is audited
Speaker 1: publicly every ten minutes. So he said, I could walk
Speaker 1: in Fort Knox and I could tour it, but I
Speaker 1: have no idea about the purity of the gold. I
Speaker 1: have no idea which gold is what, and what the
Speaker 1: value of it is. It's all held there at forty
Speaker 1: four dollars and twenty two cents an ounce. You know.
Speaker 1: He suggested that they revalue the portfolio of gold, hypothetically speaking,
Speaker 1: sell a percentage of the gold in Fort Knox and
Speaker 1: replace that with bitcoin. And that was that was something
Speaker 1: that was literally spoken out loud in this session. So
Speaker 1: to know that there are some real strategic thinkers that
Speaker 1: are looking to find a way, because I think what
Speaker 1: we're starting to recognize is that the United States is
Speaker 1: falling behind. You know, when you look at the nations
Speaker 1: around the world that have created strategic reserves that are
Speaker 1: actively buying bitcoin. The United States is on its back foot.
Speaker 1: And while we have a strategic reserve based on seizures,
Speaker 1: one of the things that some of the members of
Speaker 1: Congress said to us was there are a lot of
Speaker 1: entities that when they seize assets as a result of
Speaker 1: nefarious activity, those assets are then sold to fund those organizations.
Speaker 1: And so to say that, you know, we're going to
Speaker 1: take all the bitcoin that we see is and put
Speaker 1: it in the reserve takes away from the budgets of
Speaker 1: a lot of these places, a lot of these agencies
Speaker 1: they are fighting bad actors. So there's this sensitivity to
Speaker 1: make sure that we accomplish the right goal. And so
Speaker 1: to have the opportunity to have a meaningful conversation with
Speaker 1: the Whip and with the Speaker of the House and
Speaker 1: with you know, I had an opportunity two days after
Speaker 1: we were in DC, there was the Imagine If conference
Speaker 1: that was hosted by Bitcoin Park in Nashville, and we
Speaker 1: got to launch the conference and I had the privilege
Speaker 1: of opening the conference on stage with Senator Blackburn, and
Speaker 1: we talked about first principles, and we talked about bitcoin,
Speaker 1: and we talked about energy, and we talked about the
Speaker 1: things that matter in this country and how bitcoin is
Speaker 1: really this patriotic American libertarian concept that really empowers people.
Speaker 1: We're no longer holding on to a devalued currency that
Speaker 1: you know, we teach our kids to save ten percent
Speaker 1: of everything, and the end of the day, it's bad
Speaker 1: advice because we're out printing any any potential gains that
Speaker 1: they could be saving. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it's great to hear those conversations are happening
Speaker 2: with some of if you mentioned. I've interviewed some of
Speaker 2: those folks and had conversations and hopefully we can the
Speaker 2: United States can get this figured out soon, whether it's
Speaker 2: TWERFF revenue, whether it's you know, with the gold some
Speaker 2: of the goal supply being sold for bitcoin. Hopefully we
Speaker 2: can get that going soon.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree. It's a very exciting time to
Speaker 1: be in the space. And what we're what we're seeing
Speaker 1: now is many of our peers have left bitcoin mining
Speaker 1: and they're focusing more on high performance compute and a
Speaker 1: lot of these companies, you know, took the approach of
Speaker 1: asset light when they got into bitcoin mining. They just
Speaker 1: wanted to rent rack space and throw miners in, and
Speaker 1: we took we took a countercyclical, the kind of the
Speaker 1: inverse approach, where we went infrastructure first. We bought land,
Speaker 1: we built buildings, we signed power contracts. Now we have
Speaker 1: well over a gig out of power that we currently
Speaker 1: operate in thirty three different locations in four states. We're
Speaker 1: about to expand in another state. Be talking about that
Speaker 1: in the news in the next couple of weeks. But
Speaker 1: we have a pipeline of about one point seven gigawatts
Speaker 1: behind that. So in this race for AI and HPC compute,
Speaker 1: the most valuable commodity there is land and power. So
Speaker 1: we've generated relationships based on keeping our promises with these communities.
Speaker 1: We go in, we build quickly, we use local trades,
Speaker 1: we employ local folks, We you know, we pay. We
Speaker 1: have high performing, high paying jobs, and we can then
Speaker 1: rotate that into higher value compute and then duplicate those
Speaker 1: bitcoin efforts. So we see bitcoin as a catalyst to
Speaker 1: build out our compute portfolio. And we've been so fortunate
Speaker 1: that we've amassed a portfolio of critical IT capability that
Speaker 1: literally nobody else has. I mean major one hundred megawatts
Speaker 1: in metropolitan Atlanta, Georgia, and massive infrastructure in Tennessee and
Speaker 1: in Mississippi and in Wyoming. Literally, like I said, you know,
Speaker 1: driver nine iron away from Microsoft, and we've built, We've
Speaker 1: amassed this portfolio of incredible assets. And now what we're
Speaker 1: starting to do is build the team of people and
Speaker 1: develop the relationships that we can use that allowed us
Speaker 1: to become the best in class bitcoin miner in the
Speaker 1: world and then apply that now to other types of
Speaker 1: compute to maximize the value those MAGA wats for the
Speaker 1: benefit of the community.
Speaker 2: And for sure, talk to us a bit about your
Speaker 2: bitcoin mining outputs. So how many bitcoin you're mining, let's
Speaker 2: say per month? And I know that that can fluctuate
Speaker 2: based on different factors. So also are you holding bitcoin
Speaker 2: on your balance sheet and things like.
Speaker 1: That, great question. We've averaged between six and seven or
Speaker 1: bitcoin a month for the last several months, I think
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen bitcoin over the most recent three month disclosure.
Speaker 1: Interesting to note that in our most recent quarter financials
Speaker 1: we talked about the fact that we were able to
Speaker 1: mind bitcoin at a fifty four percent gross margin. So
Speaker 1: while the bitcoin treasury companies are kind of aping into
Speaker 1: bitcoin at one hundred and ten thousand a coin, we're
Speaker 1: minding it at less than half of that. So and yes,
Speaker 1: we do have a significant bitcoin treasury. In fact, if
Speaker 1: you go to bitcoin treasuriest net, we're in the top
Speaker 1: ten biggest in the world. We hold thirteen thousand bitcoin.
Speaker 1: What's important to note is that we mind all of those.
Speaker 1: So having mind all of those, we have significant gains
Speaker 1: on those bitcoin. So if we were to sell them,
Speaker 1: there'd be a tax impact, and the tax impact those
Speaker 1: lost SATs will be something we'll never get back because
Speaker 1: of the taxes. So what we've chosen to do is
Speaker 1: we've got an institutional grade bitcoin treasury desk. We call
Speaker 1: it our Digital Asset Management team, led by our CFO
Speaker 1: and president, Gary Vacarelli and Rory Murray, and these guys
Speaker 1: have created strategies whereby we are writing derivative instruments very
Speaker 1: low risk against the assets that we have on our
Speaker 1: balance sheet. So thirteen thousand bitcoin approximately, I mean we're
Speaker 1: talking a billion and a half dollars worth of bitcoin.
Speaker 1: Now we can write short dated covered calls. So say,
Speaker 1: for example, you know an important disclosure in our industry,
Speaker 1: A lot of bitcoin miners. In fact, all of them
Speaker 1: except us have an ATM, which is at the market
Speaker 1: offering where they can sell stock to fund their operations
Speaker 1: every day. Now, in Clevespark's case, once we hit critical
Speaker 1: mass on our bitcoin treasury, we went away from one
Speaker 1: hundred percent hoddle and we stopped using equity. We've not
Speaker 1: sold a single share of equity since November of last year,
Speaker 1: not one share. We wanted to preserve shareholder value and
Speaker 1: the value of our equity during this kind of volatility
Speaker 1: phase of bitcoin mining. You know, as global hash rate
Speaker 1: has gone up, difficulty has gone up, there's volatility. There
Speaker 1: was a huge tailwind leading up to the election and
Speaker 1: then a bit of a fallof So what we decided
Speaker 1: to do a number of months ago is we're going
Speaker 1: to sell a portion of our production in that current
Speaker 1: month to fund our operations. So we cover all of
Speaker 1: our opics by the sell a bitcoin, and then the
Speaker 1: surplus we stack our balance sheet. So now we've got
Speaker 1: thirteen thousand bitcoin and the beauty of that is we're
Speaker 1: making seven figures a month return on the yield on
Speaker 1: the bitcoin that we have, and we're selling enough to
Speaker 1: cover all of our opics, So we're cash flowing the
Speaker 1: growth the acquisition of new land infrastructure, substation builds, equipment,
Speaker 1: et cetera, through the cash flows generated from being best
Speaker 1: in class bitcoin miner. So it's the best of both worlds.
Speaker 1: And to that end, if we know we're going to
Speaker 1: sell bitcoin in order to pay sell some of the
Speaker 1: new production in order to pay our opics, then what
Speaker 1: we're doing is we're writing short term covered calls five day,
Speaker 1: seven day, ten day, and in exchange for writing those calls,
Speaker 1: we generate a premium, so those premiums stay with Clean Spark.
Speaker 1: If bitcoin goes up and the bitcoin gets called away,
Speaker 1: we were going to sell it anyway. If it doesn't,
Speaker 1: we still straight the premiums off and then we can
Speaker 1: go back in and do market based orders when it
Speaker 1: makes sense. So we're managing this for the benefit of
Speaker 1: our shareholders, and we're now exploring using that digital asset
Speaker 1: management function as kind of leverage, if you will. We
Speaker 1: put up two new announcements, one just this morning with
Speaker 1: two Prime, one a couple of days ago with Coinbase,
Speaker 1: and so it's two hundred million dollars in low single
Speaker 1: digit interest rates that allow us to borrow against that
Speaker 1: bitcoin on a revolver, So when an opportunity comes up,
Speaker 1: I can go get one hundred million dollars today back
Speaker 1: by my bitcoin. I can deploy that capital right now
Speaker 1: for whatever the use case is, and then we can
Speaker 1: use the production to pay down that bitcoin line of
Speaker 1: credit and we can avoid equity dilution until it makes
Speaker 1: more sense. So it's it's really strategic for us. We're
Speaker 1: not idealistic about bitcoin, but we do understand and recognize that,
Speaker 1: you know, bitcoin is the perfect you know, decentralized, hardcap,
Speaker 1: non sovereign money, and it's really the value protection for
Speaker 1: the future, and so you know, to have to be
Speaker 1: able to pull on both of those strings. I mean,
Speaker 1: a lot of our peers sell all of their bitcoin,
Speaker 1: so they have no exposure to bitcoin. They don't have
Speaker 1: that certainty, and they're heavily reliant on debt and equity dilution,
Speaker 1: which we've done neither. So we like our strategy. We've
Speaker 1: fallen behind the market because people kind of grew a
Speaker 1: bit weary about well, you know, you're mining seven hundred
Speaker 1: bitcoin a month. We can kind of extrapolate what our
Speaker 1: value is going to be. And so the only speculative
Speaker 1: nature on your stock is does bitcoin go up or not? Now,
Speaker 1: by monetizing megawatts through other types of compute, we're creating
Speaker 1: greater value for communities that maybe have a higher cost
Speaker 1: basis of their power. And it doesn't make sense to
Speaker 1: mind bitcoin, but it makes perfect sense to use for
Speaker 1: high performance compute. We have those relationships nobody else does.
Speaker 1: And so to have that opportunity and pair that with
Speaker 1: as again and I'm going to beat this at like
Speaker 1: until I can't. We absolutely have the best in class
Speaker 1: bitcoin mining in the world. We have the best teams,
Speaker 1: the highest uptime, the greatest efficiency, the lowest cost perretza
Speaker 1: hash of anybody in the space. We've been very disciplined
Speaker 1: and we've kind of, you know, we're forgotten about a
Speaker 1: little bit in the space because we weren't chasing shiny keys.
Speaker 1: You know, Mara talked about buying a wind farm and
Speaker 1: mining CASPA and you know, shrimp farming, and you know,
Speaker 1: Riot was trying to buy bit farms, and you know,
Speaker 1: they were making a hostile run at them, and and
Speaker 1: you know, trying to figure out what they're doing with megawatts,
Speaker 1: and you know, Iris Energy Iron sold all of their Bitcoin.
Speaker 1: Now they're focusing exclusively on HPC, which has worked out
Speaker 1: really well. What we've done is we've just sold and
Speaker 1: steady and in a very disciplined capacity, We've built this network,
Speaker 1: in these relationships, the land and power that will allow
Speaker 1: us to be the best in class at bitcoin at
Speaker 1: high performance compute, just like we were at Bitcoin. And
Speaker 1: just as a last reminder on my long winded thought,
Speaker 1: when we entered the bitcoin mining space in December of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, was on a panel and one of the
Speaker 1: peers from a major company talked about the fact that
Speaker 1: we were too late to the party. Well, now here
Speaker 1: we are and we're the most efficient. We have more
Speaker 1: hash rate inside the United States than anybody else, and
Speaker 1: so we're we liked the last mover advantage because the
Speaker 1: folks that have sold out leases on HPC for whatever
Speaker 1: the revenue number was on the GPU rentals on hoppers
Speaker 1: are now stressing that had they invested in Blackwells and
Speaker 1: built their own cloud, the returns would have been ten
Speaker 1: x from where it was. And Fox Business News came
Speaker 1: out this morning and they did a story. There was
Speaker 1: an analyst on there that talked about clean Spark and
Speaker 1: put a fifty seven dollars price target on our stock
Speaker 1: because he likes the strategy. How we're using the extra
Speaker 1: megawats beyond bitcoin mining to support HPC and AI.
Speaker 2: Man, I want to get your thoughts on the future
Speaker 2: of bitcoin mining, because you know you mentioned like the
Speaker 2: hash rates at an all time high, to difficulties increasing.
Speaker 2: There's so much demand for bitcoin from countries, Wall Street,
Speaker 2: and it's happening across the globe.
Speaker 1: So how are you.
Speaker 2: And the team there preparing for the future. You know,
Speaker 2: I know you mentioned like AI and so forth, but
Speaker 2: what does bitcoin mining look in twenty thirty, twenty forty
Speaker 2: and things like that.
Speaker 1: So when we entered the space in twenty twenty, the
Speaker 1: average fleet efficiency on the global network was thirty four
Speaker 1: jewels per tear hash, so thirty four watts of energy
Speaker 1: consumption to process one tear hash of data on the network.
Speaker 1: That efficiency has come down. In fact, I have we
Speaker 1: are sitting on six exa hash of the new latest
Speaker 1: greatest generation bitcoin miners that are thirteen point five jewels
Speaker 1: per tear hash, so three times more efficient than what
Speaker 1: existed just back then. So what I see for the
Speaker 1: future of bitcoin is a closer relationship with a chip
Speaker 1: supply chain, focusing on efficiencies, deeper integration into power systems
Speaker 1: as a load balancing entity, in fact, maybe even partnering
Speaker 1: with utilities whereby you take you know, some of our
Speaker 1: proprietary technology and plant that behind the fence at a
Speaker 1: power plant and have it automatically deployed power to bitcoin
Speaker 1: mining when they're surplus power, and then have the utility
Speaker 1: curtailed away. I mean, this is theoretical, but can you
Speaker 1: imagine a world where you take a six megawatt container
Speaker 1: and put it behind the fence at a utility and
Speaker 1: they then provides power free. Bitcoin minor provides the systems
Speaker 1: and infrastructure as their contribution, and every single day the
Speaker 1: mining pool settles both with the utility and the miner
Speaker 1: to pay for that transaction to give their pro rat
Speaker 1: a share of that. I believe that that's my vision
Speaker 1: of the future. I think it's much more closely aligned
Speaker 1: as a load balancing entity and a focus on efficiency
Speaker 1: and coming out of the microgrid business, it was all
Speaker 1: about peak shaving, load balancing, identifying areas of efficiency, and
Speaker 1: that's core in our DNA and our team led by
Speaker 1: Scott Garrison, Taylor Monag and their teams are really the
Speaker 1: best in the world.
Speaker 2: Now there's a lot of talks about quantum computing. Now,
Speaker 2: I think if quantum computing is a threat to anything,
Speaker 2: it's the traditional world. We're going to have bigger problems
Speaker 2: than having to worry about bitcoin. But nevertheless, you know,
Speaker 2: there's talks about quantum computing be used to attack bitcoin
Speaker 2: miners or hack the blockchain right and break the cryptographic algorithm.
Speaker 2: But I'm assuming that along the lines, as quantum computing
Speaker 2: and technology is coming out, the mining rigs will be
Speaker 2: upgraded with quantum tech. What is your take on that.
Speaker 1: I believe that to be true. I think I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, let's be honest, quantum computing right now is
Speaker 1: still a science experiment, and if and when it becomes
Speaker 1: more prevalent, I think it impacts a multitude of industries
Speaker 1: first when it's demonstrated at scale. I also think it'll
Speaker 1: impact wallets long before it impacts miners and the proof
Speaker 1: of work process. So I don't see that as a risk.
Speaker 1: But what I can tell you is that as clean
Speaker 1: Spark has expanded our footprint in the space, you know,
Speaker 1: I guess I can talk about it here. It's not
Speaker 1: a necessarily material, non public but clean Spark is working
Speaker 1: with some of our partners at Bitcoin Park to support
Speaker 1: an actually add to cordev in support of the Bitcoin
Speaker 1: core development. So I think that the core dev they
Speaker 1: have a range of proposals designed to mitigate risk, but
Speaker 1: I think trying to break the network is probably way
Speaker 1: down the list of fears beyond the nuclear codes. Sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And then you know, along the lines of
Speaker 2: there's so much demand for bitcoin. We've seen this incredible
Speaker 2: growth Bitcoin obviously trading over one hundred thousand dollars now,
Speaker 2: And what are your thoughts on the cycle? Do you
Speaker 2: have a prediction for this cycle that you can share?
Speaker 2: Does it is the four year cycle broken? You know,
Speaker 2: what are your thoughts on all that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate you asking that. I had an opportunity
Speaker 1: to talk about that in Washington, d C. And you
Speaker 1: know that the ibit etf reached fifty billion dollars in AUM.
Speaker 1: I'm probably wrong here and I stand a correction, but
Speaker 1: I think it was forty four days or some crazy figure,
Speaker 1: right that the next fastest was a year and a half.
Speaker 1: So the demand for exposure to bitcoin is is really
Speaker 1: at an all time high. Bitcoin miners have known this
Speaker 1: for a long time. The rest of the world is
Speaker 1: just figuring it out. I think market access grows as
Speaker 1: other products become available, and so with the demand for
Speaker 1: bitcoin outpacing supply, I think the cycle is broken. I mean,
Speaker 1: you look, I read an article that cash app buys
Speaker 1: almost the full daily production of bitcoin just through cash app,
Speaker 1: and they've they've grown their their bitcoin business. You know,
Speaker 1: Jack Dorsey or mister Nakamoto, however you want to refer
Speaker 1: to them, he's he. I think, you know, in our conversations,
Speaker 1: we had had an opportunity to spend some time with
Speaker 1: them at the proto launch event for their new bitcoin
Speaker 1: mining rig in North Georgia. And I think there's a
Speaker 1: there's a real risk and a real fear that losing
Speaker 1: domestic access to bitcoin is is problematic, and so I
Speaker 1: think you're going to see a more concerted effort to
Speaker 1: support bitcoin and not vilify it. And so given all
Speaker 1: those reasons, I really believe that the four year cycle
Speaker 1: isn't expanded to a five year cycle. I think it's broken,
Speaker 1: and that, you know, my basis for that little redneck
Speaker 1: you know, Wyoming kid is but I do still remember
Speaker 1: the first day of econ one oh one, and supply
Speaker 1: versus demand, and if you're if you're producing four hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty bitcoin a day and the demand is in
Speaker 1: order of magnitude greater than that, I don't know how
Speaker 1: you start to see the price slip away.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And then from a security standpoint,
Speaker 2: you know you mentioned earlier a bitcoin being a national
Speaker 2: security issue, right, and the United States needs to be
Speaker 2: more in the driver's seat here. As more companies and
Speaker 2: countries and your sections adopt bitcoin and they're buying, eventually
Speaker 2: people are gonna want to steal as much bigcoin as
Speaker 2: they can and guess it's on the blockchain, but still
Speaker 2: you never know what bad actors can do. How are
Speaker 2: you securing the bitcoin that you're mining?
Speaker 1: So we as a publicly traded company, and like many
Speaker 1: of our peers, you have to have internal controls that
Speaker 1: certify or assert the certainty of the treasury. So counterparty
Speaker 1: risk is mitigated largely by Coinbase. So we have a
Speaker 1: trading wallet, we have a hot wallet, and then we
Speaker 1: have a cold hard wallet, and we use coinbase as
Speaker 1: as the the our wallet provider for all of that
Speaker 1: because when it comes to the ICFR stuff on our audits.
Speaker 1: There really aren't a lot of counterparties that have that
Speaker 1: certainty when you're talking a multi billion dollar treasury.
Speaker 2: I'm curious to see how things you know, with tratifying
Speaker 2: the banks coming in. We're hearing JP Morgan and all
Speaker 2: these folks ben Y Melon they want to launch custody.
Speaker 2: Do you think eventually it might make sense to diversify
Speaker 2: your bitcoin holdings into these trat by institutions.
Speaker 1: No question, absolutely it does and we will. But again
Speaker 1: that it's currently consolidated just because of a lack of choice. Sure,
Speaker 1: you know we we we mine with Foundry because they're domestic.
Speaker 1: You know a lot of a lot of our peers.
Speaker 1: You know mine's still through ant Pool or you know,
Speaker 1: private white labeled versions of ant Pool. You look at
Speaker 1: I think China's probably are our biggest risk on a
Speaker 1: lot of that stuff. And when you know in the
Speaker 1: United States you look at Kango and bit Main. I
Speaker 1: mean the nun letter was was introduced a couple of
Speaker 1: weeks ago where they suggested a Scifius investigation be undertaken
Speaker 1: because you know, these these companies that are controlled directly
Speaker 1: or has pardon me, or indirectly by the CCP. Not
Speaker 1: only do they have a huge footprint in the global blockchain,
Speaker 1: but they're also making a massive impact on US infrastructure.
Speaker 1: They have hundreds and hundreds of megawatts that they control
Speaker 1: mining to a Chinese pool owned by the Chinese government,
Speaker 1: but mining here in the US. I think there's a
Speaker 1: lot of risk, and so I think nationalized support for
Speaker 1: what we do is going to be more critical. And
Speaker 1: listening to the way that Jamie Diamonds approached to bitcoin
Speaker 1: and his thesis has changed over time, and to sit
Speaker 1: next to a guy like Tom Lee and to you know,
Speaker 1: to have spirited discussions. Mike Saylor and I sat together
Speaker 1: Monday or Tuesday night two weeks ago. One of our
Speaker 1: investment banks had Sting, the performer, come in for an
Speaker 1: industry event, and and you know, Michael and I sat together.
Speaker 1: We went backstage, got to meet Sting, We both got
Speaker 1: to spend some time with President Bush. But to listen
Speaker 1: to a guy like Michael Sailor and talk about, you know,
Speaker 1: to hear his passion for the security and safety of
Speaker 1: a bitcoin and the bitcoin network, it only stands to
Speaker 1: reason that this massive focus on bitcoin treasury companies is
Speaker 1: going to shift and realize that what supports and strengthens
Speaker 1: and protects bitcoin treasury companies is the network, and that
Speaker 1: network is the miners. So I think there's there's it's
Speaker 1: a pendulum, and I think it's going to come back.
Speaker 1: And I think you take Jamie Diamond's change in philosophy.
Speaker 1: Now you know JP Morgan Chase is going to be
Speaker 1: a custody provider. Well, I think you know, if JP
Speaker 1: Morgan Chase can't securely hold your bitcoin, we have a
Speaker 1: much greater problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, said Matt absolute pleasure. I wish we had
Speaker 2: another hour to talk about bitcoin mining and bitcoin, but
Speaker 2: I'm going to wrap it up here. I got some
Speaker 2: wrap up questions for you. If you could create your
Speaker 2: own metaverse, what would the theme be?
Speaker 1: Abundant nuclear power everywhere? I would I would, you know,
Speaker 1: being a dad of six kids and coaching sports, I
Speaker 1: would have basketball tournaments as as fast as and as
Speaker 1: frequent as you could. I think I think keeping kids
Speaker 1: busy and occupied and part of a team is really important.
Speaker 1: We need to do more to bring people together than
Speaker 1: to push them apart. And I think, you know, being
Speaker 1: a small town redneck kid, like I said, I think
Speaker 1: a return to family values, focusing on small communities, flourishing
Speaker 1: and living our world on a Bitcoin standard, would would
Speaker 1: be you know, first place for.
Speaker 2: Me, love it, rapid fire questions, favorite food, steak, favorite
Speaker 2: musician or band.
Speaker 1: See, I'm really eclectic there on my playlist. I've got
Speaker 1: post Malone and Frank Sinatra and Noah Khan and there's
Speaker 1: nothing I don't like. I just it depends on the mood.
Speaker 1: Music moves me.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, I'm the same way. Favorite movie.
Speaker 1: This is going to be really unsophisticated. But Tommy boy,
Speaker 1: remember that Swarley and so Forth.
Speaker 2: Favorite book.
Speaker 1: I think Shackleton's Voyage.
Speaker 2: And when you're not working at clean Spark, what are
Speaker 2: you doing for fun?
Speaker 1: I spent time with my family. We live in Utah.
Speaker 1: I'm in our corporate HQ in Vegas right now, which
Speaker 1: is where I office. But we're big into outdoor sports,
Speaker 1: wakesurfing and boating and all all things outdoors. My my,
Speaker 1: my my kids are big golfers. So spending time with
Speaker 1: my family's priority number one.
Speaker 2: Awesome, Matt, Like I said, absolute pleasure, and I look looking.
Speaker 2: I look forward excuse me to meeting you in person
Speaker 2: someday and possibly coming out to one of clean Spark's
Speaker 2: locations and to view all your mining operations and the
Speaker 2: things you're doing. But thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 1: Absolutely Tony. It's an open invite. Anytime you want to go,
Speaker 1: you let me know a me there