WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:05.000 The role of humility in design, I think is way underestimated. 2 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:08.359 Like if you're a practicing designer, I think the idea 3 00:00:08.519 --> 00:00:10.679 is that, like you know, these sort of rock star 4 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:14.039 designers designs like a bit of an egotistical art. It 5 00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:18.399 is totally humbling, Like you make something and it does 6 00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:21.960 not work the first time, and then you create something 7 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:25.239 else and it's like it works for thirty percent, but 8 00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:27.039 not the other seventy, and then you get up to 9 00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:29.359 the seventy and then the thirty percent is really not 10 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:32.719 it's not working at all, Like it's you're just constantly 11 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:36.399 confronted with what you don't know, and so you start 12 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:39.200 to develop tactics to like figure out what you don't know. 13 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:40.920 You know, if you're going to be a good designer, 14 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:43.439 you have to be able to like recognize that you're 15 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:47.679 ignorant frankly and find ways to you know, bring people 16 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:49.759 in who understand what you don't. 17 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:02.640 But so really excited to welcome you both to this 18 00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:03.640 anthro life podcast. 19 00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:04.480 You know. 20 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:06.519 One of the things I love of anthropology in my 21 00:01:06.519 --> 00:01:08.400 own bias right is the kind of the holistic perspective 22 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:11.000 that it brings to thinking about the human pathways in 23 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:13.159 human stories, and I think I really love in the 24 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:15.319 work that both of you do, especially in the new 25 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:18.760 book that you put together on Assembling Tomorrow, has really 26 00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:21.959 opened up this question of thinking more holistically in terms 27 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:24.159 of our design processes, right, and what that could be 28 00:01:24.200 --> 00:01:26.840 in terms of layers of how we think about design 29 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:31.239 and experiences, you know, systems, products themselves and things like that. 30 00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:34.560 So really excited to dive into all of that. But 31 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:37.159 to kick us off, I'm excited to have Chris A. 32 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:39.840 Carter on the podcast with me. Is a geoscientist turn 33 00:01:39.879 --> 00:01:42.200 a design educator which is really cool, and Scott Doorley 34 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:44.640 a filmmaker turn at design educator. So both really cool, 35 00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:47.120 interesting backgrounds that you know, I want to dive into. 36 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:49.280 It kind of makes sense about the work that you're 37 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.719 doing now and that you're both working as in educational 38 00:01:53.959 --> 00:01:57.719 aspects creative direction, putting together the department the administration side 39 00:01:57.719 --> 00:01:59.560 of it too at the Stanford School. So really excited 40 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:01.200 to have you on the podcast. So thank you both 41 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:02.280 for joining me on the pot today. 42 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:04.359 Thanks for having us, Adam. We're's oat to be here. 43 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:05.040 Thanks Adam. 44 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:05.920 Awesome. 45 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:08.360 Let's let's kind of set the stage a little bit, 46 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:10.439 you know, here in getting this this idea of one 47 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:12.000 of the things that really stood out to me as 48 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:14.400 we think about what does it mean to assemble tomorrow 49 00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:18.360 and think of this broader approach around design is the 50 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:21.560 way that you kind of open these these histories of 51 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:22.840 the future, you know, this kind of I think, this 52 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:26.840 really interesting pathway of this blend. And so I want 53 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:28.039 to kind of start with that idea of like what 54 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:30.039 does it mean to kind of tell stories about about 55 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:31.759 the future writing kind of histories of them. And so 56 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:33.240 one that really stood out to me and I think 57 00:02:33.319 --> 00:02:35.719 is a good like centerpiece of the book itself, is 58 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:38.319 the idea of on mammoth step around the mammoth step, 59 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:42.159 thinking about bio biodesign. So maybe you could walk us 60 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:43.479 through a little bit of this idea, you know, for 61 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:46.039 folks that are coming into your work, and tell us 62 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:48.360 a bit about what's happening in the story and like 63 00:02:48.439 --> 00:02:50.199 why why this story seem to make sense as a 64 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:52.479 way to kind of center your argument in your story. 65 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:54.759 Yeah, I mean, so the histories of the future are 66 00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:59.840 these twenty speculative stories that span the course of our nonfiction. 67 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:03.599 So there's these moments of imagination that we tried to 68 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:08.039 paint across the book as a way to envision possibilities 69 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:10.319 as to like what the future might like look like, 70 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:13.840 so that we could decide, like, hey, we like, do 71 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:15.639 we like how it feels to be in this future? 72 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:19.319 Can we try it on before it happens? And On 73 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:23.719 the Mammoth Step, the story you're referring to, occurs right 74 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:25.680 in the middle of the book, in between parts one 75 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:29.159 and two, and it does that because it spans the 76 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:32.560 themes of the entire book. What's happening in this story 77 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:35.639 is we're transported into a world that's not too far 78 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:38.919 in the future and you know, only within fifty ish 79 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:45.120 years from now, where the very like in today twenty 80 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:49.199 twenty four age the science of mammoth the extinction, which 81 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:52.439 is actively being worked on today. In the On the 82 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:57.479 Mammoth Step story, it has worked and we have we 83 00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:04.280 have mammoths and they are existing up in the place 84 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:09.919 to see in the park area in what's currently Russia. 85 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:14.120 And what's happening in that story is like we're looking 86 00:04:14.159 --> 00:04:18.000 at all of the roles and responsibilities that new people 87 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:22.360 have in there. So you mentioned the biomic designer, who's 88 00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:25.360 really the one of the heroines of the story whose 89 00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:29.319 job is to program the biome around the mammoths, And 90 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:34.439 you know, like envisioning like that is a job is interesting, 91 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:36.600 right because when you bring if you we're going to 92 00:04:36.680 --> 00:04:39.839 de extinct the huge mammal, we have to think about 93 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:44.079 how it's going to affect the other elements in the ecosystem, 94 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:49.399 the smaller animals, the flora, the fauna, Like who are 95 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:54.480 what are entities governmental environmental that may have interest in 96 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:58.240 how that de extinction effort plays out. So that story 97 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:03.879 really delves into the drama over a week's worth of 98 00:05:03.959 --> 00:05:06.759 time in this era of mammoth de extinction. 99 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:09.399 I love I love that story for the for these reasons. 100 00:05:09.399 --> 00:05:12.800 And it's something else that you know stands out to 101 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:16.079 your point is that both the power of speculative fiction 102 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:17.319 of how's we think about what does it mean to 103 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:19.560 talk about what the future can be? But then to 104 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:22.120 your two as you noted there too that you know 105 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:24.600 the Church Lab at Harvard is is literally working on 106 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:26.920 this exact problem. So it's like this funny point of 107 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:29.800 like both talking about future stories, but there's there's nuggets 108 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:31.600 of it today also, right, And a lot of the 109 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:33.240 stories that you share too, and that's a really interesting 110 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:36.519 piece to to think about as we're contemplating what does 111 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:38.480 it mean to use speculative future as a way of 112 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:41.720 kind of walking walking forward and what could be? And 113 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:43.720 then also I think as an important metaphor and tool 114 00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:46.800 for making sense of how do we think more holistically 115 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:51.240 about the reverberations of designs and the processes themselves. Like 116 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:53.160 I'm curious to you as you thought about this, like 117 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:56.920 why what are you to mammoths as the symbol to 118 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.959 kind of show the halfway point between these these like 119 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:02.519 intangibles and the actionables, like what we can do and 120 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:04.839 what's kind of shaping the forces of our lives. 121 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:09.160 I mean, the extinction is wild, right, Like the fact 122 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:12.759 that we could bring back a species that used to 123 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:15.680 be on this planet, you know, even with humans here, 124 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:18.240 right Like so mammoths, mammoths were here when humans were 125 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:21.800 on the planet. The fact that we could bring them back, 126 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:27.600 it really plays with our psyches in an interesting way. 127 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:31.480 It's a they are great combination of these really tricky 128 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:34.600 technologies Scott and I call them mischievous materials in the 129 00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:40.639 book that can morph and change themselves after humans have 130 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:44.240 launched them into the world, and really you know, affect 131 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:46.199 the rest of the natural world in affect us in 132 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:48.920 ways that we may not you know, be able to 133 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:54.600 control or even recognize. So you know, working on DNA 134 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:57.959 is one of these mischievous materials. And it felt like 135 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:01.839 again like as you said, the Church Lab is working 136 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:04.879 on this, right, It's like it's not that far fetched, 137 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:09.160 and so it feels it felt like both like just 138 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:13.319 enough fascinating to hold your attention, but also like really 139 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:16.360 important because if we're going to have like a huge 140 00:07:16.519 --> 00:07:21.079 new animal like the mammoth walking around, like that's gonna 141 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:27.600 have like serious ecological implications if not economic, if not 142 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:31.600 you know, social, if not you know like add on 143 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:36.600 whatever whatever other system you want to that we will 144 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:40.480 feel those reverberations. And so it felt quite emblematic of 145 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:44.680 both what's possible, but also feels fantastical a little bit too. 146 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:48.199 That's that's a great answer, and it's it's such a 147 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:49.759 a pointent I agree to it because it's like a 148 00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:52.800 charismatic megafauna, right, is like one of the emblems of 149 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:55.720 also this question of like what came before and what 150 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:58.720 could be next. I'm curious, you know, Scott, if you 151 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:01.240 if you're that kind of making or thinking through a 152 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:04.079 narrative to like, was was Jurassic Park a huge influence 153 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:05.240 back in the day, And then it was like this 154 00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:07.319 is a great way to try to talk about what 155 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:10.360 could be, But today it's somehow last like Flicys seen 156 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:12.800 Park as a real place also, which is kind of 157 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:15.279 funny to have to recognize that it's a Jassic Park 158 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:17.439 is not actually not there, it's it's it's over in 159 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:18.279 North Russia. 160 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:21.040 Yeah, that's so funny that you bring up Jurassic Park 161 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:24.160 because when I saw that movie, I was so fascinated 162 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:26.639 by the animations that I came out of the theater 163 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:30.160 kind of walking like a Veloco raptor, you know, like this. 164 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:31.759 I was like, Wow, how. 165 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:32.600 Did they get that? You know? 166 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:36.799 And I think that's part of why storytelling is so effective, 167 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:40.399 is it it takes a very abstract idea and it 168 00:08:40.519 --> 00:08:43.759 makes it really concrete in a way where you have 169 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:47.159 to get into the details, not just speculation about what 170 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:49.360 if this, No, it's going to be so nuts out 171 00:08:49.399 --> 00:08:51.240 are we gonna imagine what's going to happen? But you 172 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:53.960 get into what's the day to day life. I Mean, 173 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:56.600 one of my favorite things in the Man Step story 174 00:08:57.159 --> 00:08:59.799 is that it's a lot about the interpersonal relationships that 175 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:02.240 are going on, and they're trying to it's not just 176 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:05.840 about these big decisions that we're making about mammas. It's 177 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:08.919 about the inner personal relationships that are guiding those decisions. 178 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:11.480 And to you know, the idea of making it a 179 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:14.000 history of the future was to sort of do that 180 00:09:14.120 --> 00:09:16.919 thing that you as an anthropologists do, which is to 181 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:19.360 look at what is in a way that looks at 182 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:22.240 it as if it's a little bit you know, not 183 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:25.480 quite normal, right, You don't look at it, you know, 184 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:28.919 like all the assumptions in living in it that make 185 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.559 it kind of fall into the background. We wanted to highlight, 186 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:33.840 you know, like what would the world really be like, 187 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:36.960 what would relationships be like when this technology is now 188 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:39.720 in the middle of them, because that's where we're going 189 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:42.559 to be living. It's not it's unlikely that it'll be 190 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:45.840 in these huge utopia dystopia situations that we all have 191 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:47.639 in our head. It's going to be day to day 192 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:51.320 life's going to feel normal in this weird new environment, 193 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:53.879 and what's normal going to feel like? 194 00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:58.240 Yeah, and why is that exactly? Why is that the normal? 195 00:09:58.240 --> 00:09:58.360 You know? 196 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:00.720 When it changes, it's funny too, because obviously the other 197 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:04.960 the I appreciate that, like the the you know, utopia 198 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:08.080 dystopia kind of tag of like, let's not we're not 199 00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:09.840 trying to necessarily go to either of those, of course, 200 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:11.200 but that's like where we always jump when you think 201 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:13.279 about these things, right, Obviously, with the rise of generative AI, 202 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:15.480 you know, there's there's always often two major camps that 203 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:17.679 it's like we're going to see the either destruction of 204 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:19.879 everything human and terminator or the matrix is going to happen, 205 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:22.080 and or it's like they're actually just really kind of 206 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:25.000 you know six grader writers that you know, it's the 207 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:25.799 hours of the Internet. 208 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:27.399 Like that's not a great like aspiration. 209 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:33.679 It just brings it down to size, right you know, well, 210 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:34.759 I mean that's that's thing. 211 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:36.159 I'm kind of curious to think about that too, to 212 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:37.799 that point of like how do we can we think 213 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:39.720 about the idea of size in that regard in terms 214 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:43.559 of like, obviously there is already huge reverberations taking place 215 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:46.679 around AI, and I think you all, I think engage 216 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.399 some really interesting and important conversations. And fiction is too 217 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:52.320 around me, like data privacy, surveillance and pieces like that 218 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:55.000 that we're both experiencing now, but then also what. 219 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.159 What those those pieces might take us into. 220 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:00.320 But part of it is that we I don't is 221 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:02.759 it like in terms of both inspiration for for the 222 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:04.240 book is help, But ask you how you explore the 223 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:08.200 like themes like surveillance or data in privacy? Is it 224 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:10.960 because we tend to get the size wrong in terms 225 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:13.279 of when we're thinking about what we're making. You know, 226 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:15.399 I love the idea that you talk about reverberations and 227 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:17.039 that's that there's there's a time element there, you know, 228 00:11:17.799 --> 00:11:19.639 But do we miss something about size too? I'm kind 229 00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:20.840 of curious in your perspective. 230 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:24.879 Yeah, that's a calling out size is really really you 231 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:28.440 know on point I think it's with these emerging technologies. 232 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:33.360 One is their invisibility. So the fact that most of them, 233 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:36.120 like you can't see an algorithm. You see the effects 234 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:38.519 of the algorithm, but you don't see the thing itself, 235 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:41.279 not in the same way that we see wood or 236 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:45.519 plastic or other types of building materials, which is partly 237 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:47.720 what makes them that that mischievous. 238 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:51.240 And their speed at which. 239 00:11:51.399 --> 00:11:55.320 They can be launched, the ease with which they can 240 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:57.120 be launched, and the speed at which they can be 241 00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:01.200 launched and then and then change and scale quickly. So 242 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:03.559 I think like that is the size element that you're 243 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:07.519 calling out, Like you you can launch something from your 244 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:11.960 home computer that could be scale to the planet instantly. 245 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:13.879 I mean we just saw it with the with the 246 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:20.559 with the CrowdStrike. Oh yeah, you know attack, right, like 247 00:12:21.159 --> 00:12:26.200 an update that was pushed to hopefully keep things secure, 248 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:29.360 like all of a sudden takes down systems across the planet, 249 00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:32.480 like in an instant. How many people were crippled because 250 00:12:32.519 --> 00:12:37.600 of that, right, Like we're we're that size as fast 251 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:41.080 as happening, And again like we didn't That's a great 252 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:43.919 example of one where it's like we didn't know until 253 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:46.000 we saw the effects of it taking everything down, how 254 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:46.960 widespread it was. 255 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:50.480 Yeah, that's a good example to it. And I I. 256 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:50.879 Didn't realize that. 257 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:52.879 I mean at the time we're recorded too, you know, 258 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.039 it's just you know, looking today that they're like thousands 259 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:58.120 of flights right just in the US alone, right have 260 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:00.799 been grounded, And like that's a crazy thing to think about, 261 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:02.840 right to your point, it's that then what does that 262 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:04.679 mean then all the people that didn't get where they're going, right, 263 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:06.480 and like these these kind of reverberations that can come 264 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:09.519 from it from a data push, you know, and we 265 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:12.159 don't recognize oftentimes that that idea of that that that 266 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:16.120 kind of connectivity or interconnectivity there with how things happen. 267 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:18.080 And something that that I'm kind of curious think about 268 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:21.360 in that respect with you, Chris, is that you know, 269 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:23.559 since you've got a background of geoscience too, I think 270 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:27.120 is very cool, Like how did that kind of focus 271 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:30.039 or background kind of shape the approach that y'all took 272 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:31.960 in terms of like you brought in like ecological system, 273 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:34.000 which I think is a very important part obviously we're 274 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.200 talking about, you know, biomic design also is part of 275 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.559 the mammoth story, So like, how did that shape the 276 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:42.279 thinking in terms of what are the right layers we 277 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:46.159 have to talk about when we're thinking about reverberations and 278 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:50.759 at what point does Earth show up right these geology show. 279 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:54.440 Yeah, I think like Scott and I both believe like 280 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:57.559 where we are all many things, you know, like none 281 00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:00.600 no one of us is just one thing, and one 282 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:02.200 of the ways you can define us is by the 283 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.200 careers that we've explored in our interest areas. But then 284 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:09.799 like like or also parents, we're also like citizens of 285 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:14.000 different areas, we've like lived in different places, and that 286 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:18.200 overlap of possibility and our lenses in the world, Like, 287 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:20.639 that's the that's the that's the hook we wanted to 288 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:25.000 capitalize on in like like fleshing out the book overall, 289 00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:29.440 and then for me personally, you know, my background geosciences 290 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:32.080 has it people often think it's very drastic to go 291 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:33.559 from geology to design. 292 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:35.080 It's like, how about those are so different? 293 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:40.919 Like in reality it it felt very very fluid to me, 294 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:45.480 Like in the geosciences, it's a very interdisciplinary, like you 295 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:50.120 have to do a lot of exploration of how you know, 296 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:53.080 the different processes that currently shape the planet are, like 297 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:55.279 how do they relate to the ones that have in 298 00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:55.879 the past? 299 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:58.600 What might that mean for climate in the future? 300 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:01.919 So what like the thing keen patterns are quite similar, 301 00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:06.679 and you know, and like the care for the planet 302 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:08.840 that you see in the book isn't just mine, it's 303 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:11.440 both of ours, right, I think like that was something 304 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:12.120 that Scott and. 305 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:13.320 I both worked hard towards. 306 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:17.720 Is so it's to sound like one voice because we 307 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:22.440 really we really do feel one voicy about about everything 308 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:23.240 that we have in there. 309 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:25.919 I will say, I appreciated the point that you did say, 310 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:27.399 like you can try to guess who's writing who, but like, 311 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:31.759 really it's true a lot of the stories are Chrissa, 312 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:34.320 you know, it's a lot of the nature's me. 313 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:40.320 But yeah, yep, well we'll never tell now, but I 314 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:41.240 think I appreciate that. 315 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:42.840 I think that's a great point too, and kind of 316 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:45.840 recognizing also how these different pieces both from the background, 317 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:49.240 but then also recognizing that how we ask questions, what 318 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:52.000 we're looking for when we're thinking about uh, change over time, 319 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:55.240 when we're thinking about scale, you know, like those are 320 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:58.240 not discipline specific of anything, right, and that like I'm 321 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:00.559 telling how to kind of build across those is I 322 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:04.000 think an important point as we begin to also contemplate 323 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:05.720 I imagine I actually i'murious. 324 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:07.720 I'll say, if you see this at the d scal itself. 325 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:12.240 Too, that like the rise of interdisciplinarity, interdisciplinary thinking right 326 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:14.240 and approaches, and that even that's changing how some degrees 327 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:15.639 work too, right as people. 328 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:16.919 Are kind of educating for the future. 329 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:18.840 So yeah, tell me a little bit about that, and 330 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:21.919 like what you're seeing in that space, like building connections 331 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:22.799 seems more important than ever. 332 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:24.919 I guess, like as we educate our our future. 333 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:27.200 I was gonna say youth, but it could be old 334 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:30.240 people too, So anybody like educating our future, you know, 335 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:32.480 how do we approach that? And as we're seeing boundaries 336 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:35.919 become more porous in terms of like disciplines, content and ideas. 337 00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:37.240 I think there are a couple of things going on there. 338 00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:41.000 One is in the fact that everything's becoming so interconnected. 339 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.960 The opportunities are in the overlaps, you know, So it's 340 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:47.679 when two disciplines come together, it brings up a whole 341 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:51.000 new thing, and there's a lot of a lot of 342 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:54.600 new opportunity there. To the problems are so interconnected that 343 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:58.879 there's just no way for one person or even someone 344 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:02.080 from a specific discipline to take care of everything, right, 345 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:06.319 Like we can only create by collaborating now and then 346 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.799 last actually, then to add on one thing is the 347 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.480 tools are getting so much easier to use, so, like, 348 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:14.880 you know, my background's a filmmaking when I when I 349 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.680 learned filmmaking, I learned on film where you literally have 350 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:21.279 to imagine what you're doing is going to turn out 351 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:23.559 a certain way because you'll never see it until the 352 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:25.880 film is developed. And then when the film is developed, 353 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:29.599 you have to literally edit it by taping strips together. 354 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:32.279 Then I went and taught at BU and I taught 355 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:35.160 on video, and not because I'm a great teacher, but 356 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:37.640 because video is so quick to be able to see 357 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:39.799 what you've done. I was able to teach my students 358 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:41.799 in a week what it took me a year to learn, 359 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:43.720 you know, I mean, And I just had this moment 360 00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:46.319 where it's like, Wow, everyone's going to be using this stuff. 361 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:49.880 It's like, there's no way this isn't going to open 362 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:52.880 up more people being able to use this stuff. And 363 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:54.680 now we have phones in the pocket. But you know, 364 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:57.240 you go down the line and tools and other disciplines 365 00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:59.200 are getting easier to use. All the design tools are 366 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:02.240 getting easier to use, so that gives access to people 367 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:05.000 who may not have, you know, studied that as their 368 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.720 profession or prepared in that way. So you've got this 369 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:10.839 access of tools, the opportunities and the overlap, and then 370 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:13.799 the fact that there's no all the problems are so 371 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:16.039 intertwined and big that there's no real way to have 372 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:18.960 one one person or one discipline do it. It just 373 00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:21.039 kind of you have to work that way. I think, 374 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:24.839 whether or not you're in a purely interdisciplinary program where 375 00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:28.200 you're just working with another department or another type of thinker, 376 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:30.799 Like it's just really where things are at now. 377 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:32.680 Yeah, I agree on hundred percent. 378 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:35.319 And it's it's interesting too because you know, I'm trained 379 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:38.279 as anthropologist, but I found my way into design anthropology 380 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:40.279 both through the research and then and I taught in 381 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:42.440 a design program for a number of years in Boston also, 382 00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:46.039 and I always love I love the combination. And but 383 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:47.759 but to that point too, it seems like design was 384 00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:50.440 just one of the fastest and first areas to say, actually, 385 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:52.400 we have to all talk together if I mean, if 386 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:54.119 we're gonna make things that are both useful and helpful 387 00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:56.559 and not harmful. I think that's especially the latter part 388 00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:59.000 is the important theme that your book is also helping 389 00:18:59.039 --> 00:18:59.559 us address too. 390 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.640 But did I guess have you all noticed that as well? 391 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.400 In terms of that, there was a I know, there's 392 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:07.680 a quickness to like the collaborative aspect of design, both 393 00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:10.359 for education and for kind of output. I mean, you know, 394 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.599 I mean part of it, I guess is the you know, 395 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:15.400 Silicon Valley push and like the excitement entrepreneurship and design 396 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:17.440 that it's exciting we can make stuff, and that has 397 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:21.039 to be intradisciplinary by by nature businesses making things. 398 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.319 I think, but I don't know. Curious your perspective on. 399 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:25.640 This too, and that if you if you saw is 400 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:27.240 designed first out of the gate or is it just 401 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:28.200