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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the pe Kenyanas Show. Thomas,

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how are you done?

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Speaker 2: I'm well. I've been recuperating from being on the road

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in the Old Glory Club event, which was fantastic. You know,

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I just the road kind of wears me out, but

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the event was great. But I've I've been trying to

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catch up on some I got some things in the can,

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even if it doesn't seem like I'm busy, like I'm

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always working on stuff, you know. So yeah, things are well, man,

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I appreciate you hosting me as always awesome.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're going to start something new tonight, and why

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don't you introduce it? I think I think this one,

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maybe more than anything we've ever done, people are going

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to have questions about, especially if they do not know

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the subject, because, let's face it, these are this is

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a group of people that from the outside looking in,

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you'd be why are you talking about them? Yeah, you'd

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ask the question, why are you talking about them?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a huge topic. That's why I needed extra

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time to prep for it. Then I still it's going

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to take a few episodes to fully flesh it out,

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and it touches and concerns things that far supersede and

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transcend typical Cold War intrigues and you know, violence between

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the superpowers, sort of open war. It wasn't typical ledgered

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main of the sort that you know characterized the dynamic,

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especially in the final phase of the Cold War, from

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you know, the America's defeats and Vietnam until until the

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Wall came down. We're talking, of course about the bider

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Minehoff Gang or colloquially the Red Army faction. They called

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themselves the Roads Army fraction, and that was deliberate. It

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was somewhat mistranslated, but also newspeople and law enforcement and

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security state types the thought of the typo. But those

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are deliberate. You know. The idea is that there was

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an organic whole that constituted the dialectical process as regards communism,

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and what the botder Minehoff Gang or group or army

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represented was this fractious element that was the vanguard of

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the dialectical process as well as something that was organically

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developing in real time. You know, now on the surface,

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these kids were just and most of our kids, and

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there's three iterations the boder Minehoff slash Red Army Faction

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and we'll get into that at a glance. And the

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way it was presented in Western media was basically that

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these were these were just radicalized youth from the nineteen

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sixty eight or student movement who were kind of like

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the Weatherman, but you know, much more violent and much

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more well organized operationally. That's not true at all. They

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were both a proxy of the Minister for Stought Security

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the Stazi, as well as very much, in my opinion,

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a European liberationist element. Now what do I mean by that?

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One of the founders of the Bottom minehoff Gang Slash

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wrotees army frauction was horse to Mahler like people in

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the right, probably no maler because in the two thousands

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he went to prison for quote Holocaust denial or smaller

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as a national socialist okay, he always was, you know.

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And the Spiegel as well as as well as these

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internal security types the represented model, or rather as some

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crazy old man for clicking up with the NPD and

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and beginning to advocate you know, these national solis ideas

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or some kind of cynic He's neither of those things, okay.

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If you were interested in liberating, in European liberation, if

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you viewed America slash NATO as like you're op as

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like you're the enemy of your people, you know, which

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many many many Germans did on the right. Your only

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path to liberation is some kind of alliance with the

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Soviet Union, you know, during the Cold War, just as

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now in geostrategic terms, the only path to German liberation

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is is complexentd it depends with Russia. Okay, So like

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why would got like mol or be advocating communism? People

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don't if people have to understand that, especially during the

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Cold War and especially in Germany, you know, the dialectical

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process is a real thing. Like whether you believe it's

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like the hand of providence or the cutting of reason,

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you know, some kind of invisible hand in man's affairs

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that is the prime moent of history, or do you

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believe it's just you know, man's kind of owned dialectic

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and discursive interaction with others that kind of like creates

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this almost like feedback loop of intellectual production. Like whatever

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you believe that it is, it's a real thing, okay.

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And in nineteen seventy two, there were concept people's conceptual

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horizon was was was confined to the Cold War you

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couldn't think outside that box. Okay, there were like there

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were one off societies like Iran, you know that, and

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arguably you know, like Parn's Argentina, but I ran obviously

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as like a more ideologically pure example that carved out

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like truly third position regimes. But that's exactly the where

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they were outliers, okay. And it was it wasn't just

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a matter of it wasn't just a matter of optics

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or like a people like Molars saying like well we

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shouldn't we shouldn't advocate national socialisms that will make people upset.

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It's like that wasn't even possible, you know. It wasn't

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just a matter of like making people upset or or

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being with the times. It's like it wouldn't have a

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context or make any sense, you know. And and again

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for context, you know the d DR that the bottom

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mine off action were all West Germans. But for context,

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the d d R. Again we covered this in one

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of our earlier episodes, and I'll be reave some of

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these things. Now they were literally at war with Israel, okay,

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as was the USSR. But the d d R, not

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only are there a spear point kind of like a

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share punked of of warsaw pack power you know, by proxy,

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especially in the Third World. But there was, there was,

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There wasn't. There was, in fact, like an East German

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like foreign policy into itself. And they despised Israel and

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they viewed them not only as a bastion of you know,

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imperialism in the Leninist sense, you know, they viewed them

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as an obstacle to the proletarian revolution in the Near East,

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which was key, you know, owing the geo strategic factors

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and other things. But the like, like the East Germans

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were anti Zionists and like anti Jewish at the point

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that it's superseded pragmatic decisions relating to high politics and

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and and and and dialectical conclusions. You know, this this

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was this was payback for World War Two. Okay, you

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can you can tell me that it wasn't. But I

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don't accept that. Okay. The Communist party line anyway, with

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the Soviets would say, particularly when they were under pressure,

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you know in the nineteen eighties, uh supposedly for you know,

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anti Semitic legislation, like they said that, you know, it's

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not like Jews, like they're like, why would we why

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would we emphasize Jewish stuffering in the Wor War too,

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we lost twenty five million people, you know, like we

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we vanquished the Third Reich. Like why we're not gonna

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We're not gonna count how to some reactionary Jewish identity,

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They just like refuse to acknowledge it, you know, so again,

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you know, I refer people to pulp Godfreid, especially people

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who weren't alive during the Cold War, Like the left

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won the Cold War, but the warsaw packed left lost. Okay,

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Like we're not we're not talking about wocism. We're not

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talking about you know, guys who were sitting around reading

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full co and marcusa. We're not talking about you know,

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people who thought feminism was important. Then you know, we

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need to make the races kind of blend together. Like

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that was not remotely within like Stalin's contemplation. That's like

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not at all. What like Marcus Lenni's priorities are you know,

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like like, uh like Marxist Lenin is the of the

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sort that uh, you know, ragined and warsaw packed. They

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might they might look at like the really between the

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sexes in the West is being you know, colored by

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like productive force determinism. They might look at like blacks.

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It's like a hyper exploited like you know, like proletary

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like lumping cast. But they didn't. But that's that, that's

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like where it stopped, Like it wouldn't occur to them

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to say, like, oh, you need you know, people's people's

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only path to fulfillment is like sexual expression. You know,

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we need we need to do away with with public

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morals and you know it's wrong for you know, men

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and women to find different roles in life like that.

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That's not then that wasn't just like an an East

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block and seat, Like I said, that's not the way

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Marxists think about things. That's why I object to when

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people claim everything that like its Marxism, you know, like

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like Kamala Harris is the quote Marxist. That doesn't make

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any sense. Okay, Now that's not to say like Marxists

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don't have fucked up ideas. They do, but it's it's

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a different thing entirely. But now the Pozson conducts, I'm

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going to kind of start from the end the end

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of the Cold War because again, like what I partially

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my hypothesis, if you will, is that a like the

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Bottom Minehoff Gang and its three iterations was at base

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a European liberationist tendency. That you know, it was fundamentally

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anti American, anti NATO for liberationist reasons. There were aspects

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of it and elements within it, particularly Horse Mahler, who

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wasn't just a founding personage. He was he was their lawyer.

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He was very much like kind of like the court

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philosopher of Bottom Minehoff. He was a national socialist. And finally,

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the final piece of my claim is that the uh,

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the Growth Army fraction, it was very much like an

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organ of the d d R. Okay, it was not

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this kind of like spontaneous organization of radicalized students like

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there there were such organizations, don't get me wrong. And

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you know, the the Bottom Minehoff Gang also began like

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in in in prison, okay. And as we'll see, there's

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there's a there was a strong situationist element too, and

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one of their key operators actually became radicalized in a

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psychiatric hospital. So these these were not conventional like college

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student radicals. But beyond that, again you'll see by their

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choice of targets, by their operational sophistication by their the

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overall pattern of of of their violence. They were equipped, trained, directed,

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schooled by a highly sophisticated revolutionary military actor, and that

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that actor was the d DR.

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Speaker 1: Were you aware that Mahler is still alive. Yeah, yeah,

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he's eighty eight years old. Yeah, he's a fascinating guy.

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If he was if he was younger, and it was

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and my my German was better, I'd reach out to

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him and then try to try to take some of

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his testimony. But in any event, like why why am

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I saying we're gonna start at the end, Because the

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conclusion of the Cold War, it it brings the light

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things that relating to my hypothesis. You know that in fact,

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you know, the wrote Army fraction was was in fact

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like a direct action element to the d d R.

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Okay in April nineteen ninety two, and not for context,

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you know this the Soviet Union no longer existed, you know,

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this was there the kind of independent states. But the

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group of Soviet forces in Germany are finally like leaving now,

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like you know, put there the withdrawals like complete, okay,

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and that and in in some kind of concrete terms,

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you know, regardless of the fact that you know, the

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Cold War was over now like about you know, two

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over two and a half years. You know that that

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final withdrawal of of a Soviet the Soviet military element

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was was kind of like where the rubber me's the road,

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like truly the end, you know, at least and formerly

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divided Germany.

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Speaker 2: This UH, this twenty three hundred word communicate in April

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ninety two was UH was sent to the UH, the French,

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the French press agency and interestingly, like the RIF, the

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bottle minehoff Gang, they they they they'd write their community

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case and all all lowercase type of letters which have

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zoom was you know, in order to clarify that you know,

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these these communications were legitimate, you know, because that wasn't

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generally released, okay, but this communicate was sent to the

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French Press office and BOND, which of course you know

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was the in during the the days of a partition

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Germany was the capital of the bundest Republic. It stated

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that it was issued forth from the quote commandal level

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of RAF the RIF to organize itself into four different levels.

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There's the commando level, there was the prisoners, the resistance

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and the sympathized the political supporters like the command over

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the direct action element okay, like the prisoners or former

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command whos have been take former commanders who've been taken

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out of action, but whose interests and rights had had

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to be guarded. And this became a big aspect of

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rif direct to action was you know, pressuring release of

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the prisoners or or you know, taking hostages and order

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to bargain the freedom of their people. The uh, the

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the quote resistance or people like Horse to malor you

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know who are like above above board people you know,

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who were presenting the the that the Marxist Lennon his case,

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and the and the revolutionary and and and the revolutionary

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paradigm that was you know, demanding the liberation of Europe,

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among other things. And obviously the sympathizers are are people

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who you know aren't in a position you know, owing

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to you know, owing to social or professional station or

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or health or age you know, to participate directly. Okay.

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So in other words, uh, the fact that issued forth

237
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,000
from commandal level means that you know, these this is this,

238
00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:00,000
this is serious, Okay. These are people who who've been bloodied. Uh.

239
00:16:01,679 --> 00:16:09,080
At that time, At that time, it had been about

240
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:14,600
a year since there was any activity by RAF. But

241
00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:16,120
as we'll get into when we get done, the list

242
00:16:16,159 --> 00:16:22,080
of like some of their direct action operations. Uh even

243
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:27,000
even at the very end they were hitting high profile targets. Okay.

244
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:34,200
This communication was basically divided into two sections. The first

245
00:16:34,679 --> 00:16:38,200
was basically like an elaborate, an elaborate but not you know,

246
00:16:38,279 --> 00:16:45,080
like but not overly worthy description of like why like

247
00:16:45,159 --> 00:16:49,200
the RAF's like arms struggle failed and admission that, you know,

248
00:16:49,279 --> 00:16:51,679
like the unarmed struggle like under the banner of Marcis

249
00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:55,639
Leninism is done. It can't you know, is impossible for

250
00:16:55,639 --> 00:17:00,759
anything like that to endure or re emerge. The second

251
00:17:00,799 --> 00:17:06,759
section stated because of that, because you know, the historical

252
00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:16,880
process won't abide you know, an ongoing revolutionary paradigm that

253
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,480
uh you know, the RF like what wants a unilateral

254
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:26,440
they they're declaring a unilateral ceasefire. Okay. The implication being

255
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,920
that if you leave us alone, like will basically will

256
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,279
basically disappear, you know, like don't don't hunt our people

257
00:17:31,319 --> 00:17:35,799
down or still wanted for outstanding violence. Like basically you know,

258
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,680
they basically like let the past from the past, you know,

259
00:17:38,799 --> 00:17:42,839
like nobody's no nobody. Nobody believes that you know, Marcist

260
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,079
Leninist revolution is is as possible in West Germany. And

261
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,000
there's there's not even like a d d R anymore

262
00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:57,240
to like, you know, unify with so it uh in

263
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:03,119
uh their own words quote it said, we ourselves were

264
00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,720
confronted with the fact that the policy we pursued in

265
00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:09,119
years before nineteen eighty nine did not strengthen us politically,

266
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:14,599
but weakened us. We were faced with the fact that

267
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,799
we had failed to accomplish our objective, namely to achieve

268
00:18:17,839 --> 00:18:21,920
a breakthrough in the joint international struggle for liberation now

269
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,079
interestingly too like as well as we'll see as the

270
00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,279
series goes on. There were instances and I know some

271
00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:29,759
people in the Commerce are going to pull out, like

272
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:36,079
early on, especially you know, people affiliated with the original

273
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,079
like wrote to army fraction or supporters, you know, they

274
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,480
they pull out typical like boilerplate like anti fascist bullshit

275
00:18:43,559 --> 00:18:45,920
and claim that like you know ed now or was

276
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,759
it Nazi or that you know the you know the

277
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,799
you know, the communists, if the Boodas Republic will throw

278
00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:55,720
a communists and concentration camps, you know, like and like

279
00:18:55,799 --> 00:19:00,440
references to the Holocaust as well as as well as

280
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,279
the kind of token suggestion that you know, the ARIF

281
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,440
was a Maoist organization, okay, because post sixty eight that

282
00:19:07,519 --> 00:19:10,759
was like very chic okay, but very quickly it's all

283
00:19:10,839 --> 00:19:14,519
kind of abated, you know, and the language, if not

284
00:19:14,599 --> 00:19:20,960
the optics of of the Rote Army fraction became very

285
00:19:21,079 --> 00:19:27,720
orthodox Marcus Lenists, okay. And this kind of this kind

286
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,319
of this kind of letter declaring like the end of

287
00:19:30,319 --> 00:19:33,400
the arm campaign like very much like reflects that, you know,

288
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,839
like it's not there just there's no there's none of

289
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,039
this crazy you know, kind of post Marxist language, you know,

290
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,440
about about how like the fight will go on, or

291
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,200
about like alternative means of achieving liberation, you know, for

292
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,720
the class is most affected. It's saying like, look, like

293
00:19:49,759 --> 00:19:52,079
the historical process like what it didn't develop how we

294
00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,480
thought it would, and like it's it's no longer, it

295
00:19:54,519 --> 00:19:57,240
can no longer facilitate what we were trying to accomplish,

296
00:19:57,519 --> 00:19:59,119
you know, so this is out of our hands to

297
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,200
it would be few that look continue not as feud

298
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:09,319
out with self defeating. The ARIF admitted that, uh, the

299
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,759
nineteen eighty nine revolutions like basically like crushed them. And

300
00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:16,640
again if they if they were not like an appendage

301
00:20:16,799 --> 00:20:22,119
of Warsaw Pack specifically the d d R and in

302
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,200
some way the g RU and kg B, though not

303
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,599
as much as people might think, like they they wouldn't

304
00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:34,240
have been talking this way, you know it Uh, you know,

305
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,640
it's uh like it goes I won't, I won't, I

306
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,799
won't bore you, and and the subs with you know,

307
00:20:42,039 --> 00:20:45,519
uh like a a Falon like reading of the of

308
00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:49,319
the statement. But you know, basically it says like when

309
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,599
when the when the eighty nine revolutions like swept through,

310
00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:54,759
you know, and we realized that, you know, the the

311
00:20:54,799 --> 00:20:58,000
political core just like evaporated, and like even the vanguard

312
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,640
what have been the vanguard at least in officialdom, you know,

313
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,119
not just in the Soviet Union, but in the satellite

314
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,720
regimes like lack the will to act as a vanguard

315
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,920
and and crust the resistance, you know, and see through

316
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,920
you know, the process of history. You know, like we

317
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,319
we realized that we had to like kind of like

318
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:21,160
redefine our our situation politically. And again, as we'll get

319
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,880
into despite the fact that just said that this is

320
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:32,000
a very orthodox Marxist, Leninist even Stalinist movement or or actor.

321
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,680
They they very much run the cusp of you know,

322
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,240
kind of like developmental ideas. You know, they were they

323
00:21:40,839 --> 00:21:43,559
they were very aware of like the situationist perspective of

324
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,079
the capitals, you know, and they believe that to inform

325
00:21:47,279 --> 00:21:50,359
the process of history in like an immediate sense. Okay,

326
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,720
so this isn't this, this isn't like a cope or whatever.

327
00:21:53,799 --> 00:21:57,359
In fact, it's it's very much Uh, it's really kind

328
00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,720
of like a savage like self criticism, okay, like saying

329
00:22:00,759 --> 00:22:06,480
like our entire are are our entire like constellation of

330
00:22:06,799 --> 00:22:10,240
motives and the way we perceived, you know, the historical

331
00:22:10,319 --> 00:22:14,839
environment like you know past and and in and in

332
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,480
the moment in which we were actively you know, killing people,

333
00:22:18,519 --> 00:22:21,079
and and and and we're fighting this war. You know,

334
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:27,200
where we were, we were grossly mistaken, you know. And

335
00:22:27,279 --> 00:22:30,599
that uh, especially in somebody who's who's good. I mean

336
00:22:30,599 --> 00:22:33,000
that that that it doesn't just require when to put

337
00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:37,119
on is ego aside to make such an admission. But

338
00:22:37,519 --> 00:22:40,400
if your entire like rithmon tetro is like dialectical materialism,

339
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,720
and uh, it's kind of like this kind of like bassardized,

340
00:22:44,759 --> 00:22:48,440
he gaily in view of historical determinism, you know, and

341
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,279
it's and suggesting that you know, you were totally you're

342
00:22:51,519 --> 00:22:55,319
totally wrong. And the way you read the proverbial indicators,

343
00:22:55,799 --> 00:23:00,440
you know, that's that's that that that that's big okay,

344
00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:04,839
I uh, you know, and and it indicates it suggests,

345
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:10,799
like uh, it's a kind of self reflection that's kind

346
00:23:10,799 --> 00:23:15,759
of rare among gorillas, okay, because the direct action element generally,

347
00:23:16,079 --> 00:23:18,079
that's that's not to say like guys who actually put

348
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,240
in you know, who do dirt and put into work

349
00:23:21,319 --> 00:23:25,480
or stupid point the contrary, but it it's it's it

350
00:23:25,519 --> 00:23:28,000
requires their own kind of man and they and generally

351
00:23:28,039 --> 00:23:32,079
they're not particularly reflective on the historical situation, regardless of

352
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:37,519
their ideological persuasion. But you know, this is a like

353
00:23:37,559 --> 00:23:40,079
a story begins here again too because if the road

354
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,799
Army fraction, and as the series continues, you'll see what

355
00:23:42,839 --> 00:23:45,000
I mean by this. If they were in fact, again,

356
00:23:45,079 --> 00:23:49,440
this this kind of nineteen sixty eight or radical student

357
00:23:49,519 --> 00:23:53,240
movement that that that you know, somehow became habituated to

358
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,839
direct the action and violence and maybe received some assistance

359
00:23:58,079 --> 00:24:00,839
you know, after it had already you know, developed the

360
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,880
kind of ideological and social infrastructure required, you know from

361
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,680
the Warsaw Pact. Official them like they this this sort

362
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:14,079
of this this sort of like what like self surrender

363
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,359
letter like or self pretique and formal kind of ending

364
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,480
to the arm campaign that would not have been forthcoming.

365
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,960
You know, why why wouldn't have they have just continued

366
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,680
into perpetuity, especially when these were like wanted men and

367
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,839
women in large part. You know, it's not as if

368
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,559
they could go back just having like a normal life

369
00:24:29,559 --> 00:24:34,519
above board the uh. And it goes out to say too,

370
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,960
like in loves of what I just said, it said

371
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:44,200
that it said that the the commando level of the

372
00:24:44,319 --> 00:24:49,119
organization was afforded too much of a leading role. You know,

373
00:24:50,839 --> 00:24:55,200
their operational philosophy had always been to favor the direct

374
00:24:55,319 --> 00:25:02,559
action element. Okay, it's the advent guarde Okay, not just

375
00:25:02,599 --> 00:25:07,880
as a kind of self policing elitism, but also because

376
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,000
obviously that's something that set them apart. As we'll see,

377
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,079
like the era killed a lot of people. They killed

378
00:25:12,079 --> 00:25:14,839
a lot of high profile people. It killed CEOs, they

379
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,599
killed top diplomats, they killed uh, it killed national political figures.

380
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,079
You know, Okay, these are not guys throwing pipe bombs

381
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,279
at at the outside the local beer garden or you know,

382
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,440
like beating up on uh, you know, people they decided

383
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:33,079
were fascist or something. You know, this was this, this,

384
00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:36,799
this this was very very serious. But at the same time,

385
00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:40,440
it's you know, the men were actually are fighting a war,

386
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,079
whether you're talking about you know, like where you're talking

387
00:25:43,079 --> 00:25:45,960
about like comed infantry and in a conventional war situation,

388
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:52,440
or whether you're talking about a gorilla vanguard involved in you know,

389
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:58,039
and in killing people incident to a political struggle. You know,

390
00:25:58,079 --> 00:25:59,880
you can't you can't walk through the force of the tree,

391
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,319
like just by virtue of where you're situated. You know,

392
00:26:04,559 --> 00:26:07,079
it's uh, it's like being pressed up against an obelisk

393
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:08,759
and trying to get like a feel for like what

394
00:26:08,759 --> 00:26:10,519
its dimensions are. You know, you've got to be able

395
00:26:10,519 --> 00:26:12,559
to step back to what you ares and like see

396
00:26:12,559 --> 00:26:14,839
how it's shaped and then kind of like contemplated. But

397
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,720
if you're if you're killing people and you're fighting GSG

398
00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:20,960
nine and you know you're in you know, American Army

399
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,279
Intelligence and you know brittishaw My five, and you know

400
00:26:25,319 --> 00:26:29,119
you're you're you're living by the by the by the

401
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,799
barrel of your of your agent k machine pistol. You

402
00:26:32,839 --> 00:26:36,559
know you're not You're not you're not thinking deeply about

403
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,839
you know, Marxist Larninist dialectics, and you know whether or not,

404
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,400
you know, the things predicted or augured they're in are

405
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,920
actually coming to fruition. You know, that's just a fact.

406
00:26:50,079 --> 00:26:56,720
It's you know, the uh. What also is interesting is

407
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,319
that it without it doesn't stray anything approaching like vocus

408
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,759
language or like outright nationalism or like nationalism with the

409
00:27:04,759 --> 00:27:07,680
lower his end, you know, like nationalism the type of

410
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,480
the Evan type is dead obviously, but they talk about

411
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,079
how the time has come we you know, they need

412
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,079
to look out for the German people like and anybody

413
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,720
politically engaged must because these these are critical times, you know,

414
00:27:19,559 --> 00:27:23,240
and any anybody who would be interested in following them,

415
00:27:23,599 --> 00:27:26,400
you know, it's they It would be a mistake for

416
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,839
to try and seek out opportunity targets to you know,

417
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,240
as as this time of transition is underway, you know,

418
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,640
because it's not it wasn't clear like what the parameters

419
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,880
were yet, as well as like what the objective would

420
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:47,119
be you know, and divided Germany was it was a

421
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,319
unique situation that was like neither war nor peace, you know,

422
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,880
Like I made the point people on the inner German border,

423
00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:58,200
like particularly where tactical nuclear forces were based. And then

424
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,680
the folding gap you know where which which would have

425
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,079
been you know, the the fall the gab in the

426
00:28:05,079 --> 00:28:07,799
Returman plane is where like wars, the bank armor would

427
00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:11,279
have absolutely assaulted evental war like he visited. It was

428
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,440
like it was like some some alternative reality where like

429
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,400
World War three was already on. You know, it wasn't war,

430
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,359
but it wasn't peace time either, you know. And and

431
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,640
Berlin was the city full of intrigues, you know, you know,

432
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,200
full of full of spies, you know, full of them,

433
00:28:29,079 --> 00:28:31,559
you know, full of political assass and it's quite literally,

434
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,839
you know, full of ideological intriguers of all stripes. You know.

435
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,599
It was that they don't went away after the wall

436
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:44,400
came down, you know. And uh in in some ways

437
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,440
there was quite a bit more uncertainty obviously, you know

438
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,240
when the truly you know, like and the and the

439
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,680
Unified like truly like peacetime Germany, and I mean I

440
00:28:54,759 --> 00:28:56,559
mean it should this should be obvious but it's you know,

441
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:01,640
the people even even though my sense of people, they

442
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,480
I think they they overemphasize the the significance of violence politically,

443
00:29:07,119 --> 00:29:11,359
you know, like it like like direct action doesn't even

444
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,119
up self accomplish anything. You know, it's got to be targeted.

445
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:21,880
It's got to be situationally devised, you know. And uh

446
00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:26,359
even then like it's it's gotta the way it the

447
00:29:26,359 --> 00:29:28,559
way it indexes with the kind of conceptual horizon. The

448
00:29:28,599 --> 00:29:32,519
body politic is key, you know, all this stuff, and

449
00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:38,720
you know that this this sounds like this might sound obvious,

450
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,759
but it's really it's not obvious when you're when when

451
00:29:42,119 --> 00:29:45,640
you like the royal you was like is insinuated into them,

452
00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:49,319
you know, a political uh an our and political struggle

453
00:29:51,519 --> 00:30:02,000
the uh and mhm beginning uh beginning of ninety seven.

454
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,400
It doesn't jumping around a lot, but one of the Congress. Again,

455
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,960
like I said, there's a few aspects of my hypothesis. Okay,

456
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,680
you know that being the national socialist element or tendency

457
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,720
within the road Army fraction. That's not to say that

458
00:30:15,759 --> 00:30:19,559
they were a national solvices grouping, but the element was there. Secondly,

459
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,440
the you know, their uh, their status as a their

460
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,839
de facto status is a true you know, like Oregon

461
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,240
slash element of of the Warsaw Pact and not just

462
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:36,799
a spontaneous rebel grouping, you know, and and and an

463
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:41,200
incident to that very much, especially during the middle phase

464
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,960
of their campaign or on ninety seventy eight, they put

465
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,960
a premium on on opportunities to negotiate, you know, with

466
00:30:48,119 --> 00:30:50,480
with the Bond government in the United States and and

467
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,880
and the British government as well as other as well

468
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,200
as the Netherlands in Belgium where they had carried out

469
00:30:56,599 --> 00:30:59,519
you know, homicides and terrorist acts as we'll see. But

470
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,240
the Road Army fraction, they started to emphasize this policy

471
00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:06,480
of of of negotiating release of their prisoners as well

472
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,240
as try to piggyback negotiations and release of those people

473
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,000
with it they considered to be like adjacent and allied elements,

474
00:31:14,319 --> 00:31:16,880
like people people from the Popular Front for Liberation of

475
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,039
Palestine General Command, like people from the POO, who in

476
00:31:20,079 --> 00:31:24,039
those days was dominated by FATA, which contra Hamas was

477
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:29,119
you know, at the secular wing and the the RAF

478
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,880
trained with the POO under FATA, which is one of

479
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,359
the ways they learned to use weapons, they learned basic

480
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,920
infantry tactics. You know, you can't you can't just like

481
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,240
teach yourself these things. You know, something that that that

482
00:31:43,279 --> 00:31:45,799
basic question too. If if the Road Army Fraction was

483
00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:48,519
just these these crazy sixty ter college kids like what

484
00:31:48,599 --> 00:31:50,440
they were like they just they were just like drilling

485
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,000
and infantry tactics like out in the woods for fun.

486
00:31:53,079 --> 00:31:57,680
I mean no, but you know, the uh, we'll get

487
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,279
into that too. But the this, this, this, this gave

488
00:32:01,319 --> 00:32:04,319
the World Army Fraction an international profile. And we'll get

489
00:32:04,359 --> 00:32:08,000
into this in the second episode. But you know, this

490
00:32:08,079 --> 00:32:11,680
led to the establishment in a Japanese wrote Army fraction.

491
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,920
The Japanese Communist Party was very active, had a lot

492
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:21,160
of clout and was very very very radical, and some

493
00:32:21,279 --> 00:32:24,039
people may know that he might not figure the tangent,

494
00:32:24,119 --> 00:32:27,839
but the Japanese Route Army Fraction carried out this assault

495
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:33,640
at at Jeda Airport in Israel and killed like twenty

496
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,720
six people. But again too, you know, borrowing, it's I mean,

497
00:32:38,759 --> 00:32:42,039
think about that. Okay, there's there's this, there's this, there's

498
00:32:42,039 --> 00:32:48,079
this hardcore German and uh Japanese armed groupings under the

499
00:32:48,119 --> 00:32:51,279
same banner. You know when they're and they're slaughtering people

500
00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:53,920
in Israel under the under the banner of you know,

501
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,440
anti imperialism. But if you don't, if if you don't

502
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,240
see the relationship the history there, like, I don't know

503
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,119
what to tell you. Okay, this is not accidental, it's

504
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,519
not just you know, it's not just splendidly kind of

505
00:33:05,519 --> 00:33:08,559
like ironic optics or something. But oh, Germans and Japanese

506
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,200
taking the fight to a Jewish state. I mean again

507
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,160
it should be obvious. But people counter signal be on

508
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,119
this all the time, which is I mean, they're all

509
00:33:16,119 --> 00:33:19,039
going to do that, but I I don't just say things.

510
00:33:19,039 --> 00:33:21,640
I can back this up and I will. That's what

511
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:30,759
we're doing here. But the this uh they called uh,

512
00:33:31,759 --> 00:33:34,839
the rotary paction, called this process like collating you know,

513
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,440
between themselves like the Japanese particularly you know, the PLO

514
00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:42,960
as well as Popular Front deliveries in Palestine, which is

515
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:48,160
primarily a Syrian outfit, and the East Germans and Syria

516
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:53,599
were thick as thieves, you know. And I've made the

517
00:33:53,599 --> 00:33:56,200
point again and again the Syria should have an outside

518
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,200
significance to people on the right in a way, not

519
00:33:59,279 --> 00:34:04,160
unlike Franco's spanded that's a subject from another episode. But

520
00:34:05,319 --> 00:34:10,000
the the UH, the d the d d R military

521
00:34:10,079 --> 00:34:15,280
establishment was very insanely into Syria. Heinz Hoffman, who was

522
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,679
UH the UH the d d R Defense Minister, he

523
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,960
personally knew Asade. They were very close. He assisted him

524
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:32,159
in modernizing the Syrian er of army. And you know, incidentally,

525
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:35,400
the so as you have you have East Berlin indexing

526
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:39,400
very tightly with with Damascus, and then you have the

527
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,119
Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine General Command, which was

528
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:46,199
a very Syrian outfit, you know, indexing with the Road

529
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,840
Army fraction, and both are technically you know, like these

530
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,800
these these independent non state actors. I mean this again

531
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,280
to the kind of the interdependence here and the relationship

532
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:03,000
of of of state officialdom to these to these organizations

533
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,679
like should should be clear to anybody, but you know,

534
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:11,760
truly up to person who's blind to kind of political realities.

535
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:24,000
The the that UH and it's also too like one

536
00:35:24,039 --> 00:35:29,599
of the reasons why you know, there's you could tell

537
00:35:29,639 --> 00:35:33,800
too that I the Rotary Refraction was taking some of

538
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,119
their cues from the provisional IRA, like not in terms

539
00:35:36,159 --> 00:35:39,320
of ideology or anything. But you know, the the provos

540
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,000
were fixated. I mean, I don't mean that dismissively. I

541
00:35:43,039 --> 00:35:46,719
mean it was it was a correct emphasis. They they

542
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,079
were strongly oriented towards there are people being who were

543
00:35:50,199 --> 00:35:54,079
locked down being recognized as political prisoners and not criminals. Okay,

544
00:35:54,119 --> 00:36:00,679
because a few things happened there that obviously the legitimized

545
00:36:00,679 --> 00:36:03,800
that your struggle and your people, you know, come to

546
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,440
be viewed as soldiers and thus be entitled, if not

547
00:36:06,639 --> 00:36:09,880
the full protection of the Jeeva Convention. You know, they're

548
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,480
they're they're there at least you know, afforded protection as

549
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,440
as ah as enemy combatants you know, which prior to

550
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,440
the Bush administration is gonna making hashed with that. You

551
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,159
know they did, uh, they did. They were afforded some

552
00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:30,880
some degree of protection you know where I mean obviously

553
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,599
obviously because like, were they not they they would have

554
00:36:33,599 --> 00:36:40,639
just been taken on shot. But also it's you know, uh,

555
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,920
there's a it opens the door to negotiation, okay. And

556
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,960
the negotiation is I mean, despite mistards the Lenski might claim,

557
00:36:49,039 --> 00:36:52,440
or despite what these Raeleis claim about terrorists, or despite

558
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,079
what despite what America claims about you know, whoever it's

559
00:36:56,119 --> 00:37:00,400
it's angry with at any given day, you if you

560
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,679
just if you just claim you refuse to negotiate with

561
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,519
OP four like you're you're pissing under the wind. You know,

562
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,880
you can't just you can't just sit about to resolve

563
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,079
all all political questions like militarily or by like threat

564
00:37:12,079 --> 00:37:15,519
of force. That's ass nine. But there has to there

565
00:37:15,559 --> 00:37:17,760
there has to be some sort of equality of status,

566
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,079
you know, if not full equality, there's you know there

567
00:37:22,159 --> 00:37:25,239
there's you've got to be treated as existing, if not

568
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:30,599
on sovereign footing, at least on legitimate at least on

569
00:37:30,679 --> 00:37:33,639
legitimate terms as a political actor. Okay, you know, and

570
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,800
again this this removes what would otherwise be you know,

571
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:42,159
criminal behavior, you know, non privileged homicide, you know, things

572
00:37:42,199 --> 00:37:46,519
like this, you know, from from a from a category

573
00:37:46,519 --> 00:37:50,440
of a pure criminality. So this, this is fundamentally important.

574
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:52,840
And this and this also isn't obvious. I mean, like

575
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,840
the this is somewhat uncharted territory, you know, I mean

576
00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:01,800
it's we obviously I mean gorillas or result as literally

577
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,159
as old as Christ, you know, that's what like the

578
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,400
Zealots were, but in in the in like the in

579
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,199
like the post Westphalian system, like how we how we

580
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,039
I'm talking about you know, like like the twenty twenty

581
00:38:15,039 --> 00:38:19,320
per century people who are representatives of of of of

582
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:25,199
sovereign states, you know, how how we treat partisans? This

583
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,280
was this was this is an issue of the First

584
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,559
Impression in large parts. That's why it's such a huge

585
00:38:29,559 --> 00:38:32,199
part of of Schmid's book almost of the Earth, because

586
00:38:32,199 --> 00:38:34,320
he's saying, you know, he's writing in the you know,

587
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,639
in in at the peak of the Cold War, and

588
00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:39,800
he's saying like, look like this is going to become

589
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,360
like the face of warfare. You know, how how are

590
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,400
you going to respond to this? You know, it's there.

591
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,760
There's got to be some sort of mechanism whereby you know,

592
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,000
there there there's some kind of not moral like at

593
00:38:53,079 --> 00:38:56,679
least pragmatic, you know, consensus about you know, how we

594
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,719
how we deal with these situations, how we deal with

595
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,199
these actors, you know, and what what like the path

596
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,760
the pieces when you know, uh, when when a national

597
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,679
state is like so engaged against such an element. But

598
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,880
you know, I so I mean again, obviously I I

599
00:39:13,079 --> 00:39:15,599
don't see like nineteen to twenty five year old kids

600
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,119
just like devising this, Okay, I know a lot of

601
00:39:19,159 --> 00:39:22,000
brilliant guys that age, don't get me wrong, but it's

602
00:39:22,039 --> 00:39:25,239
just not it's this is something that very much came

603
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,400
from somebody like Marcus Wolf was, you know, the kind

604
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,760
of like the man behind He was like the real

605
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,440
brains of the Shazi, you know. Eric Milka was a

606
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,800
it was was it was just it was you know,

607
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,079
he wasn't a figurehead. He was very hands on, but

608
00:39:41,079 --> 00:39:42,840
he was. He was basically just like a thug cop.

609
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,079
Wolf was really the He wasn't just like the spymaster,

610
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,719
but he was. He was of the d d R.

611
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,039
He was uh, you know, he was he was kind

612
00:39:52,039 --> 00:39:57,960
of he was kind of like there uh, there's there's

613
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,519
shining prints of all things really to deplit it warfare

614
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,320
and a fascinating guy. I highly recommend his autobiography. Whatever

615
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,880
anybody thinks of them, he's he was probably was. He

616
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,199
was about the best. He was one of the best

617
00:40:09,199 --> 00:40:14,719
men in the worst out back for those but it's uh,

618
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:22,320
now they get for context here and let me just

619
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,960
see how long we're been going. Okay, for context here again,

620
00:40:28,039 --> 00:40:31,159
let's let's break down someone with the Roade Army fraction.

621
00:40:32,559 --> 00:40:37,400
It's first and and this first errat first and second iterations,

622
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:40,559
what kinds of activities was engaged and what kinds of

623
00:40:40,599 --> 00:40:46,320
targets it was hitting? Okay, twenty second October and now

624
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:54,480
he's seventy one World Army Fraction members frem Guard Bowler

625
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,280
and Gerhard muller Uh. They attempted to rescue their comrade,

626
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,400
leading Margaret Schiller. She was in the process of being

627
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,199
arrested by the police after shooting it out with them,

628
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,800
after she'd been identified as you know, an an RAF member.

629
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:18,440
A police sergeant named the Heinz Lemke was shot and wounded.

630
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,320
The sergeant on the scene when Norbert Schmidt was killed.

631
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,920
I mean, killing a cop obviously is a huge thing.

632
00:41:28,159 --> 00:41:29,880
I mean it's really a point in overturn and in

633
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,960
absolute in an absolute sense. But that doesn't prove that

634
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,559
like the RIF will just get down, okay, I mean

635
00:41:35,559 --> 00:41:38,480
they they thought nothing of shooting it out with them

636
00:41:39,079 --> 00:41:47,400
with the German federal police. Two months later, December nineteen

637
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:52,840
seventy one, the another cop, another another boons for public cop,

638
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,800
was shot by Worte Army Faction members in the process

639
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:03,000
of a bank robbery. He lived, but the the heist

640
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,440
crew made off of one hundred and thirty four thousand

641
00:42:05,519 --> 00:42:08,519
Deutsche marks, which was a fortune in ninety seventies money.

642
00:42:09,199 --> 00:42:11,559
You know that the deutsch mark was you know, the

643
00:42:11,679 --> 00:42:14,000
like the euro before the euro. You know, so they go,

644
00:42:14,599 --> 00:42:16,840
that's like, that's like seven hundred thousand dollars and like

645
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,599
today's money. Okay for like a one off score. That's

646
00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:23,880
freaking insane. Now check this out. As time goes on,

647
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,519
these targets don't has become more and more brazen, but

648
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,719
like the ambition here is crazy. May eleventh of nineteen

649
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:39,639
seventy two, at the Frankfurt Main, the US Army five

650
00:42:39,679 --> 00:42:43,559
Core Headquarters, which is located in the IG Farban Building,

651
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,000
the Roade Army for Action blew up the Officers Club.

652
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,880
They wounded thirteen soldiers. They killed Lieutenant Colonel Paul Bloomquist.

653
00:42:54,119 --> 00:42:57,280
Bloomquos was a war hero. He was an Army aviator.

654
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,719
He was he was a you know, a helicop oppera pilot.

655
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:06,199
He held four Distinguished Flying crosses, Silver Star, purple Heart.

656
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,440
I mean this guy, this guy was like, uh like

657
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,320
Audie Murphy, you know, and uh they killed him and

658
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,119
attacking like the I G. I G. Farban's you know

659
00:43:18,159 --> 00:43:20,199
that just wasn't just a symbol of like West German

660
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,800
kind of you know, national manufacturing capitalism, but again this

661
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:29,159
was this is the headquarters of of of an army corps,

662
00:43:29,599 --> 00:43:34,679
you know, striking that killing a lieutenant colonel and and

663
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,719
like a celebrated war hero with that. I mean, that's

664
00:43:38,199 --> 00:43:39,880
that's one of than it's a shot fright across the bow.

665
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:48,760
That's real war. That same month, at UH in Augsburg,

666
00:43:51,119 --> 00:43:55,400
the Royal Army for Action bombed a police station specifically

667
00:43:55,440 --> 00:44:01,039
targeting the Bavarian State Criminal Investigation Agency. Fives were wounded.

668
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:07,280
For the first time, there's a formal accept this responsibility.

669
00:44:09,199 --> 00:44:16,360
The UH the the team called itself the Tommy Weissbacker Commando.

670
00:44:17,119 --> 00:44:20,599
They named themselves after either prisoners of the like their

671
00:44:20,599 --> 00:44:22,920
people who've been taking prisoner of k I, A like

672
00:44:23,039 --> 00:44:25,480
k I in their mind. So like when are too

673
00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:29,000
responsibility always like the Tommy Weissbacker Commando or you know,

674
00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:34,559
like the whatever, like the the like the horse Boller Commando,

675
00:44:35,119 --> 00:44:37,960
you know which is which is again that's like a

676
00:44:38,039 --> 00:44:41,920
callback to like Spanish civil war stuff and like right

677
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,719
October days, you know, as I'm sure people picked up

678
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:51,880
into the lore again in May, the U A federal

679
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:57,639
judges car was bombed. In addition, they bombed the headquarters

680
00:44:58,159 --> 00:45:04,119
the actual Springer of Verlad Corporation and wounding seventeen. The

681
00:45:04,199 --> 00:45:08,679
Heidelberg the US Army in Europe Officers Club in Heidelberg

682
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,719
was bombed followed moments later. I guess people ran out

683
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,719
across the street was the Army Security Agency and they

684
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,840
planned a bomb there too, So like these people were

685
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,800
fleeing the officers club, they got blown up, and then

686
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,079
three American soldiers were killed and three more wounded. I mean,

687
00:45:27,119 --> 00:45:29,159
since this was, I mean, think about that was happening today,

688
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:30,480
Like that's totally insane.

689
00:45:31,079 --> 00:45:33,639
Speaker 3: You know, it's you know, my dad was stationed there.

690
00:45:34,119 --> 00:45:35,119
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's nuts.

691
00:45:35,199 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 3: That's where I was born.

692
00:45:36,559 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 2: Yeah no, no, yeah, I know, I know you're a

693
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:43,559
wounded republic native but which which is actually got awesome?

694
00:45:43,639 --> 00:45:46,679
But yeah, what happened your path wasn't so awesome. But like, yeah,

695
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:52,199
the now this was what kind of see the real escalation.

696
00:45:53,039 --> 00:45:57,480
In nineteen seventy four, the first UH, the first Rotar

697
00:45:57,559 --> 00:46:06,199
Army for Action action of A seventy four, the West

698
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:16,920
German Embassy and UH in Sweden a hit team or

699
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:22,800
assault team calling themselves the Commando Holger Mines Holger Minds

700
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,199
with a rogue arm refaction member who died on a

701
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,320
hunger strike in prison. And this is another thing too,

702
00:46:28,519 --> 00:46:31,400
like again like like talking about the provos like these,

703
00:46:31,679 --> 00:46:33,199
there were a number of them that that that didn't

704
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,760
Bobby Sands didn't just star themselves at death like these

705
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,840
guys were. I mean, they were crazy, you know, and

706
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,119
and in in a parisan sense, you know, they incredibly

707
00:46:45,199 --> 00:46:52,880
dangerous people. They uh, they carried out, they carried out

708
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,519
this assault on again. This is the German Embassy, the

709
00:46:55,599 --> 00:47:00,880
West German Embassy in Stockholm. You know this this this

710
00:47:01,119 --> 00:47:06,079
uh this this RIF team stormed it, demanding the release

711
00:47:06,199 --> 00:47:09,320
of a RIF prisoners as well as a list of

712
00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:16,800
you know of adjacent comrades, you know, Palestinians, Japanese others.

713
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,840
They they stated that if the police moved in, they said,

714
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,480
they wired the building with fifteen keels at TNT and

715
00:47:25,559 --> 00:47:27,360
if the police moved on them, they blow it, They

716
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:33,920
blow themselves and everybody up. The police decided they were bluffing. Well,

717
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,960
I mean, the groups are just six members. It was

718
00:47:37,039 --> 00:47:40,199
a most significant of clomb was a guy named Siegfried

719
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,840
Hausener and I'll get into that in a minute. But

720
00:47:44,119 --> 00:47:49,360
it was, uh, it was there's five men and one

721
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:56,440
woman byandered the embassy took thirteen official hostage, including the

722
00:47:56,599 --> 00:48:01,440
uh the ambassador like a German ambassador. Uh. I believe

723
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,760
the ambassador Heinz Deatrich Stalker. I believe they took him

724
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,679
up to the the window so that you know, the

725
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,599
police could see him, and then blew him away. They

726
00:48:11,639 --> 00:48:15,360
did it to somebody, I think it was Stalker. And

727
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,159
again they weren't the police to back off, but they

728
00:48:17,199 --> 00:48:19,199
said that they'd killed him. They said they'd kill a

729
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,960
hostage every hour if the police didn't lift the uh

730
00:48:23,679 --> 00:48:27,280
you know, they didn't didn't retreat from the primity established

731
00:48:27,639 --> 00:48:30,840
And again they threatened to blow it the entire embassy

732
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,119
up if the police moved to storm them. But I

733
00:48:34,159 --> 00:48:36,079
don't know it was actually it was one of the

734
00:48:36,119 --> 00:48:40,559
hostages killed. Was This is fascinating. Baron Andreas von Mirbach,

735
00:48:40,599 --> 00:48:42,320
who was the he was the German military at the

736
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,679
Shade of Sweden. He's the guy who's marched out under

737
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:51,719
the landing and shot dead. This is macab but fascinating.

738
00:48:52,079 --> 00:48:56,480
In nineteen eighteen, his ancestor, Veilhelm von Murbach, had been

739
00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:01,239
assassinated the German MC in Moscow by those revolutionaries who

740
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:05,679
stormed the freaking embassy. Like how like how how fucking

741
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:10,119
insane is that? Like I don't know, maybe think of

742
00:49:10,119 --> 00:49:12,559
that scene in Hannibal. You ever seen that movie where

743
00:49:12,559 --> 00:49:16,800
he kills the he kills the Italian policeman and he's like, yeah,

744
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,760
then when your ancestors get get like vivisected by the

745
00:49:20,519 --> 00:49:22,320
by the Borgias and he's like, yeah, how'd you know that?

746
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:30,039
I think, like, but only in Europe Man, but Helmut

747
00:49:30,079 --> 00:49:35,519
Schmidt was a new chancellor. It was very much I mean,

748
00:49:35,679 --> 00:49:38,679
West Germany in the seventies was really kind of a mess.

749
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,880
And the some people believe that the government you know,

750
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,880
you know that's one of Philly Brandt, who is the

751
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,360
long time mirror of West Berlin subdue him is a

752
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,760
fifth columnist. Oh my, no, it's kind of friendly. Uh,

753
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,000
it is overly friendly past or towards the d d R.

754
00:49:59,119 --> 00:50:01,239
That's all the other story, Like there's whole Espionize Scannell

755
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:06,039
to him. But point being, the Federal Republic was kind

756
00:50:06,079 --> 00:50:13,079
of paralyzed owing to the situation Visavis the executive as

757
00:50:13,159 --> 00:50:16,719
it as it happened, uh as the sweetest police payers,

758
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:21,960
the storm in the building, the UH that the road

759
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:28,719
time refraction blew up, you know, killing everybody. Now, the

760
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:34,800
reason why, the reason why I raised uh, Siegfried Hausner.

761
00:50:36,039 --> 00:50:38,280
This is Housner's background, and I'll wrap it up in

762
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,800
a minute. But I when I said before that much

763
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:47,159
as the d DR itself and the World Army fraction,

764
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,639
if you accept my hypothesis, and even if you don't,

765
00:50:50,159 --> 00:50:52,159
as regards the Red Army as regardless, the d d R,

766
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:54,679
that the Road Army fraction was very much like an

767
00:50:54,679 --> 00:50:58,760
appendage of a worse peg officialdom. You know, despite their

768
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:03,880
kind of orthodox Marxist in this posture, they borrowed very

769
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:10,400
much from you know, secondary like like dialectical lawsuits of

770
00:51:10,599 --> 00:51:13,519
a you know kind of socialist discourse and revolutionary discourses

771
00:51:13,599 --> 00:51:16,480
generally security house or had been in a mental hospital,

772
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,719
a psychiatric hospital. That's something want emphasize too. You know

773
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:21,360
how these days all you hear about is like, oh,

774
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,320
we didn't know about mental illness in the old days.

775
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,559
That's a weird take. Okay, I think mental illness is

776
00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:32,599
definitely over diagnosed today. People definitely over medicated. But psychiatry

777
00:51:33,079 --> 00:51:37,800
was at his zenith in the seventies. Okay, it was.

778
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,519
It was like like there was a push for like

779
00:51:39,599 --> 00:51:42,400
mental mental health to be addressed. Okay, it was definitely

780
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:50,320
in people's radar. Now, the situationist movement as well as

781
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:59,519
UH student like Frankfurt school type people, which the Rotimy

782
00:51:59,559 --> 00:52:04,559
fraction definitely acolytes of for limited purposes. Gramtyin Adorno featured

783
00:52:04,639 --> 00:52:12,400
very large in their kind of ideological horizon. But anyway,

784
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,639
sacred House and there he was part of what was

785
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:20,679
called UH translates to the Socialist Patients Collective or the SPK. Okay,

786
00:52:24,519 --> 00:52:29,679
the core of the SPK uh It's idiot, it's it's

787
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:33,920
slogan was literally turned illness into a weapon. Now, what

788
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,719
their notion was was that mentalness is very real. You know,

789
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:44,039
it's not UH, it's not a misinterpretation of a of

790
00:52:44,199 --> 00:52:48,920
a a psychic phenomenon under stress or something, but that

791
00:52:49,639 --> 00:52:56,760
you know, basically quite literally capitalism and capitalist structures, you know,

792
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:00,360
our first and foremost psychically oppressive and are literally breeding

793
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:09,880
mental illness. So the the idea being that somebody who's

794
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,719
self consciously mentally ill they're aware of what the capitalist

795
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:18,079
structure is doing to them, and the only the way

796
00:53:18,159 --> 00:53:23,599
the way to be cured is to reconfigure social conditions

797
00:53:23,639 --> 00:53:26,679
such that the alienation that bred their mental illness in

798
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,639
the first place goes away. I mean this, this is

799
00:53:29,679 --> 00:53:34,800
like literally like the ideology, okay, And that's uh, that's

800
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:40,000
where a Houser came from, you know, and he uh,

801
00:53:41,079 --> 00:53:46,159
presumably he was a very eager volunteer for direct action

802
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:52,320
because you know, somebody, somebody tortured by mental illness if

803
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,199
they come to believe rightly or wrongly, or they come

804
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,519
to sincerely believe that you know, some kind of superstructural

805
00:53:58,599 --> 00:54:02,679
tendencies of you know, the world historical process is quite

806
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,880
literally making them crazy. You would you would die to

807
00:54:06,079 --> 00:54:06,559
remedy that.

808
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 3: You know.

809
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:13,599
Speaker 2: I find this fascinating. But you know, I bring that,

810
00:54:13,679 --> 00:54:15,519
I bring up how or not just because he died

811
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:23,039
in the service of a throat refractions idea, but in

812
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:29,719
a very high profile in a very high profile terrorist operation.

813
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:34,159
But you know, he like I said, uh, there there's

814
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:37,480
there was there was There's an ideological complexity here that

815
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,000
is both the product of the times from which it

816
00:54:40,079 --> 00:54:50,119
was emergent, but also like supersedes it's the uh and

817
00:54:50,199 --> 00:54:54,639
I think that gives I'm gonna We're gonna pick up

818
00:54:54,639 --> 00:55:03,039
next time with with what I think of as the rofractions,

819
00:55:03,119 --> 00:55:07,039
Morgan's NATO, what we've addressed so far released there there

820
00:55:07,079 --> 00:55:12,199
wargans the boot is Republic, but I I think this

821
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,559
is you know, I think this is an appropriate stopping place,

822
00:55:14,599 --> 00:55:16,000
and Frank we like I'm in a lot of pain

823
00:55:16,039 --> 00:55:19,880
from sitting, so if that's yeah, I think we've been

824
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,960
going about an hour of this pool, but you will

825
00:55:23,199 --> 00:55:24,559
we'll take this up in a couple of days.

826
00:55:26,159 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds good.

827
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,119
Speaker 1: I want to take the chance to remind everyone about

828
00:55:31,199 --> 00:55:35,280
our our movie reviews and how you know, we have

829
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:39,400
this gum road page set up and on my website

830
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:42,519
Freeman Beyond the Wall Forward slash movies you get you

831
00:55:42,599 --> 00:55:46,440
can access I have links to all of it. And yeah,

832
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,119
there's uh, we're gonna record another movie next week. We

833
00:55:50,199 --> 00:55:51,960
won't tell anybody what it is right now.

834
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,039
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so we got it's like Mystery Science the

835
00:55:56,119 --> 00:55:57,119
year three thousand men.

836
00:55:59,599 --> 00:56:04,039
Speaker 1: Hopefully, hopefully we can share some uh, some cultural and

837
00:56:05,119 --> 00:56:08,239
historical facts that are relevant to a lot of the

838
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:10,360
you know, a few of the things we're watching.

839
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,559
Speaker 2: No, man, I I uh, I mean I I'm literally

840
00:56:14,639 --> 00:56:17,039
like a movie junkie man, like I meanline and inject

841
00:56:17,159 --> 00:56:19,480
movies and like I since I was a kid and

842
00:56:20,039 --> 00:56:21,800
being able to like mouth off about movies and that

843
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,840
people actually be interested in hearing that. That's that's freaking wonderful, man.

844
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:27,880
Like that's uh like like legit, man, that's like free

845
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:31,599
bubble gum like all day every day. So yeah, I

846
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,639
really appreciate people like being interested enough to subscribe.

847
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, me too. Do you want to do plugs and

848
00:56:38,639 --> 00:56:39,159
get out of here?

849
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,039
Speaker 2: Yeah? Man, you know it is always the best place.

850
00:56:42,119 --> 00:56:45,440
I mean, like one stop place to find me is

851
00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:48,320
in my website. It's Thomas seven seven seven dot com

852
00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:51,639
number seven. Each of me is seven seven seven dot com.

853
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:54,440
I'm on X, which is doing all sorts of like

854
00:56:54,559 --> 00:56:57,119
weird fucking stuff to like tweak their platform. But I

855
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:01,000
actually think it's getting better. But I mean it's what

856
00:57:01,079 --> 00:57:05,039
we got, whether it's getting better or worse. But I'm

857
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:10,320
at real at kevil r e a L underscore number

858
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:14,800
seven hm as seven seven seven, like the real like

859
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,000
the read the real stuff is on my sub stick.

860
00:57:18,119 --> 00:57:22,800
It's including the pod it's a real Thomas seven seven

861
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:24,920
seven at subsec dot com. There's like a bunch of

862
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,039
other ship man, Like I'm on t gram on Instagram.

863
00:57:27,199 --> 00:57:29,159
Like just like go to my website or like seek

864
00:57:29,199 --> 00:57:31,360
that ship out and you shall find you're on like

865
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,360
a Google search for me. Man. Like I I'm not

866
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:35,480
saying I'm I'm like now cools to Coos, but like

867
00:57:35,559 --> 00:57:37,159
I just like there's a lot of there's like a

868
00:57:37,199 --> 00:57:38,880
lot of shit out there, like with me in it.

869
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,760
You know. Like so if you just like google me, like,

870
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,000
you will find stuff. I find stuff that like I

871
00:57:44,039 --> 00:57:45,679
forgot that I did. I mean, I I'd like to

872
00:57:45,719 --> 00:57:47,480
think it's because I do a lot of content because

873
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:49,039
I'm going Cenil Belu fuck knows.

874
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:53,159
Speaker 1: All right, Thomas, So the next time, thank you very much.

875
00:57:55,559 --> 00:57:58,760
I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea Show

876
00:58:00,039 --> 00:58:01,199
here with Thomas hate On.

877
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:01,599
Speaker 3: Thomas.

878
00:58:04,159 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 2: I'm doing well, man. What I wanted to emphasize today.

879
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:13,119
I assume people are getting something out of this. I'm

880
00:58:13,159 --> 00:58:20,239
nothing up twos. I mean, I the bottom Minehoff phenomenon.

881
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:23,599
You've got to understand there's two things that I think

882
00:58:23,599 --> 00:58:27,519
are keep understanding it. Okay, firstus that there was there.

883
00:58:27,559 --> 00:58:33,280
Truly were three iterations of it. This armed grouping that

884
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:37,320
had a common lineage existed from nineteen seventy to nineteen

885
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:42,360
ninety eight and every five to seven years because their

886
00:58:42,599 --> 00:58:48,559
operators got got got killed, ended up incarcerated, or disappeared underground,

887
00:58:50,079 --> 00:58:52,360
some of whom didn't like re emerge for decades despite

888
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:58,000
being you know, hunted by by by the Buddhist Republic,

889
00:58:58,199 --> 00:59:02,360
you know, counter terrorists and the offer what they what

890
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,880
they euphemistically called the Awese section of the Constitution, which

891
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:10,639
is no joke. These people have limitless resources. But you know,

892
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:22,559
the original boder Miinhoff grouping they really were. They really

893
00:59:22,599 --> 00:59:25,599
were a product of a peculiar time in place, and

894
00:59:25,719 --> 00:59:30,840
that was adan Auer's Buddhist Republic and their parentage. A

895
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,760
lot of these guys fathers had died in the war

896
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,519
or just never come home. You know, there was like

897
00:59:37,639 --> 00:59:40,360
lost generation of people as well. Seeks we're gonna get

898
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:45,079
into their biographies, and they had kind of a confused

899
00:59:45,199 --> 00:59:48,239
understanding of what they wanted to do. Like Horse and Mahler,

900
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:52,920
I maintain was always something of an ideological pole star

901
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:57,400
for the group, and I believe he was always a

902
00:59:57,519 --> 01:00:00,679
national socialist, but he was diferent than the rest of

903
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:04,719
him and he wasn't a direct action operator. However, by

904
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:09,719
the last iteration of the RhoD Army fraction, they were

905
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,639
totally indexed with the Stazi and they were basic they

906
01:00:13,679 --> 01:00:17,360
were running operations for the DDR, you know, like it

907
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:22,760
had totally changed into something different, you know, and it

908
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:28,320
had becomes solidly in the Stalinist Warsaw packed Camp, you know,

909
01:00:29,639 --> 01:00:35,840
which was a huge coup for Marcus Wolf and the

910
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:40,559
administer first Starts Secure to be able to do that

911
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:45,760
in America, you know, the Soviets. True, after the Common

912
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:52,960
Turn was like ceased to exist formally, okay, what replaced

913
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:59,559
it was this aggregation above ground, you know. It was

914
01:00:59,679 --> 01:01:03,440
common form which was basically uh kind of like the

915
01:01:03,519 --> 01:01:07,599
communist version of the G seven you know, or the

916
01:01:07,679 --> 01:01:12,360
Shanghai Cooperation Organization maybe is more correct analogy, but you know,

917
01:01:12,519 --> 01:01:18,400
the the communist part of the Soviet Union, the other

918
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,519
tentacles and many things. And they were constantly trying to

919
01:01:21,719 --> 01:01:26,440
flip leftists in the UK and America like to the

920
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:31,679
Warsaw Pact camp like away from this schismatic post sixty

921
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:37,880
eight ideology, you know, and they had some success with

922
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:41,280
that in the UK, but in America, like it was

923
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:46,679
always hitting the wall, you know, like Gus Hall, I mean,

924
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:51,280
nice thing. There were some guys on the right, especially

925
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:56,400
in the earlier phase of the Cold War, like James

926
01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:02,079
Hartzung Medal, who I believe were signaling to some of

927
01:02:02,159 --> 01:02:10,760
these warsaw pack type agents in America, their notion being

928
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,000
this is similar to what Girbel's notion of clicking up

929
01:02:14,039 --> 01:02:16,400
with the KPD, you know, during like the years of

930
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,599
struggle to smash the social democrats. You know, there is

931
01:02:19,639 --> 01:02:24,960
an internal logic there. But my point is, uh, you know,

932
01:02:25,119 --> 01:02:29,320
the uh the Stazi managed to would basically totally completely

933
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:34,199
flip the bottom mine off tendency, you know, and make

934
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:39,519
it literally like an organ of a of the ddr

935
01:02:39,719 --> 01:02:47,519
UH violence apparatus. And I find that fascinating. So I

936
01:02:47,639 --> 01:02:51,719
wanted to get into the first iteration, the first iteration,

937
01:02:53,360 --> 01:03:00,800
the literal botder mine Off faction and talk a bit

938
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:04,360
about these personalities that constitute it and what their backgrounds were.

939
01:03:04,639 --> 01:03:08,119
I think that is essentially as essential understanding the German situation,

940
01:03:08,679 --> 01:03:11,199
and it's essential understanding why these people did what they did.

941
01:03:12,199 --> 01:03:14,559
I mean, the point again and again, you know, zeitgeist

942
01:03:14,679 --> 01:03:18,440
is very real. That's not just some conceptual prejudice I have,

943
01:03:18,719 --> 01:03:22,000
Like what is possible in you know, the political realm

944
01:03:22,079 --> 01:03:25,159
with its own sphere of activity? Okay? And if you're

945
01:03:25,159 --> 01:03:29,039
talking about radical partisan action, like what is going to

946
01:03:29,159 --> 01:03:32,599
have resonance, what's going to index with the culture and

947
01:03:32,679 --> 01:03:37,440
the historical moment as it then exists, is uh, is

948
01:03:37,599 --> 01:03:44,039
very historically contingent. You know, German young people who wanted

949
01:03:44,079 --> 01:03:50,599
to strike out at regime authority really the only way

950
01:03:51,199 --> 01:03:57,000
they could conform that tendency was some sort of communism. Okay,

951
01:03:59,679 --> 01:04:05,559
German it had literally literally been annihilated and was partitioned

952
01:04:05,599 --> 01:04:11,599
and under hostile occupation to prevent a fascist going tendency

953
01:04:11,679 --> 01:04:17,639
from ever re emerging, you know. And even those that

954
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:28,119
were emergent obviously early on, we're we're uh, we're entirely

955
01:04:28,159 --> 01:04:31,239
adjacent to the Soviet Union, you know, not in terms

956
01:04:31,239 --> 01:04:34,840
of the deep values or anything, but in terms of

957
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:40,280
you know, geostrategic realities as well as you know, certain

958
01:04:41,239 --> 01:04:48,239
ideological interdependencies that were just essential in a in a

959
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:54,239
in a bipolar world with a Soviet superpower as the

960
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:59,519
as as as the as the lesser enemy of Europe

961
01:04:59,679 --> 01:05:05,039
than the truth full of Europe, which was America. So

962
01:05:05,119 --> 01:05:08,599
I want to get into that a bit. The uh,

963
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:16,480
the the rohod Army faction came into existence in May

964
01:05:16,599 --> 01:05:28,239
nineteen seventy, and it was when there's an obvious Botter

965
01:05:29,159 --> 01:05:33,079
was sprung from prison. The batter had been locked up

966
01:05:33,159 --> 01:05:37,079
in nineteen sixty eight him and is a girlfriend of

967
01:05:37,159 --> 01:05:41,920
his at the time, he'd set fire to this department store,

968
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:46,960
you know, the strike back at capitalism, you know, and

969
01:05:47,039 --> 01:05:50,920
he said that he did it because the Buddhas Republic

970
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:56,159
there's an apathy about what was happening in Vietnam, you know.

971
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:04,239
And it's interesting that at first these guys and ladies

972
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,599
were taking their cues very much from kind of like

973
01:06:07,679 --> 01:06:12,119
the American radical left, and that's why like Nam was

974
01:06:12,199 --> 01:06:16,400
kind of their conceptual focus. That changed very much, and

975
01:06:20,159 --> 01:06:25,199
the Palestine very much became their like the share punk

976
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:30,079
in their view of revolutionary activity abroad and kind of

977
01:06:30,159 --> 01:06:36,000
like the key battleground against you know, uh, the uh

978
01:06:37,639 --> 01:06:46,599
the capitalist uh global structure, which I think reading between

979
01:06:46,599 --> 01:06:51,119
the lines, it's pretty clear why that is okay. But

980
01:06:51,199 --> 01:06:53,840
in any event, you know, as of nineteen sixty eight,

981
01:06:57,239 --> 01:07:03,079
Botter was still very very very much kind of a

982
01:07:03,159 --> 01:07:08,360
rebel without a cause. You know, he drew up custodial

983
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,719
sentence because Germany was very very draconian in these days,

984
01:07:13,119 --> 01:07:17,760
you know, and at an Hour who was kind of

985
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:19,800
hated by both the right and the left, but he

986
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:23,400
was in purely objective terms, he was a pretty remarkable executive,

987
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:26,760
you know, and he managed going to insinuate himself as

988
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:29,840
all things to all people, you know, outside of the

989
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:34,360
outside of the national Socialist right would remained of it,

990
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:38,280
and and and the you know, the far left. But

991
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:42,559
he he realized a certain kind of conformity had to

992
01:07:42,599 --> 01:07:46,480
be imposed. You know, Germany was very much re arming

993
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:51,159
and reconstituting to fight World War three, and ad made

994
01:07:51,159 --> 01:07:53,840
it clear that, you know, nuclear arms are going to

995
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:57,920
be based in Germany. The Bundesbega was going to participate

996
01:07:58,199 --> 01:08:02,400
in their deployment and use when war day came. This

997
01:08:02,519 --> 01:08:05,519
is incredibly controversial for all kinds of reasons, you know,

998
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:13,000
some prosaic, some rather complicated, but in any event, that's

999
01:08:13,039 --> 01:08:17,720
the context. So young Andrea has bought her at this point.

1000
01:08:18,199 --> 01:08:19,840
I believe it was just kind of acting out to

1001
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:25,159
act out, Okay, A lot of young people inn Now,

1002
01:08:25,199 --> 01:08:30,720
well those were rather gifted intelligence. It's you know, you

1003
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:33,119
have to you have to live life like literally just

1004
01:08:33,199 --> 01:08:36,800
in terms of duration to get a true perspective on

1005
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:47,960
the historical situation. Interestingly, while he was incarcerated, obviously, I

1006
01:08:48,079 --> 01:08:50,800
say May fourteen seventy is the day when kind of

1007
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:54,399
the the roode Army fraction came into existence. That'sn't even

1008
01:08:54,399 --> 01:09:08,119
sprung out of prison. Okay, now for whatever reason, and

1009
01:09:08,159 --> 01:09:10,279
we'll get into the Bouders like background in a minute.

1010
01:09:10,359 --> 01:09:16,039
Like his upbringing, he was an incredibly contentious, violent person.

1011
01:09:17,319 --> 01:09:24,119
He wasn't traditionally charismatic, but uh, people apparently would would

1012
01:09:24,119 --> 01:09:27,319
would would would gravitate to him and and treat him

1013
01:09:27,319 --> 01:09:34,840
as a natural leader. Okay he uh, within his orbit

1014
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:38,279
was very much a quarter of young outsiders as it were,

1015
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:48,000
all right, And despite his kind of like his nature

1016
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,279
won't be onond cantagorous, he was like a violent person.

1017
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:50,920
Speaker 3: You know.

1018
01:09:51,039 --> 01:09:53,359
Speaker 2: He if people disagreed with them, he would attack them

1019
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:58,039
like physically. They became his ops, you know, like and

1020
01:09:58,159 --> 01:10:00,520
some degree of that like has to live in kind

1021
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:02,479
of like the heart and mind every partisan, but in

1022
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:11,039
his case it was it was truly extreme that uh

1023
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:21,720
the primary architect that's springing him out of prison was

1024
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:34,680
uh Ulrika Meinhoff, who was is sometimes girlfriend but more

1025
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:39,000
of kind of an what kind of an ideological fellow traveler.

1026
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:44,560
One thing that was unusual about the bottom Minehoff grouping

1027
01:10:45,399 --> 01:10:48,600
they always had women with them. Now at first it

1028
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:50,960
was probably I mean, not to be crass about it,

1029
01:10:51,079 --> 01:10:52,960
but they were, you know, because they were young and horny,

1030
01:10:53,039 --> 01:10:55,520
and like young guys want women around and vice versa.

1031
01:10:55,720 --> 01:11:00,279
You know, young women gravitate towards guys and their age open.

1032
01:11:01,399 --> 01:11:04,600
But there was a there was an odd ideological dimension

1033
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:07,319
to it too. Like when I say an odd ideological dimension,

1034
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:10,039
I mean it was shaved by the conditions of of

1035
01:11:10,159 --> 01:11:14,039
the immediate post war years. You know, it wasn't it wasn't.

1036
01:11:14,039 --> 01:11:18,319
It wasn't dummy feminism, And dummy feminists don't like lock

1037
01:11:18,399 --> 01:11:21,520
and load and and and and and start knocking over

1038
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,439
banks and and springing and springing their people out of

1039
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:30,199
prison and and and shooting cops. Okay, obviously you know

1040
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:37,239
this caused some odd challenges for them later, especially as

1041
01:11:37,279 --> 01:11:42,319
they came to index with Islamic resistance fighters. Obviously, not

1042
01:11:42,439 --> 01:11:44,640
because it's like mos Loas have no problem training women

1043
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:47,079
to fight, and they do, but they can't have men

1044
01:11:47,159 --> 01:11:50,399
and women cohabitating and sleeping in common quarters, and they

1045
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:53,119
can't have women and men's barracks and vice versa. We'll

1046
01:11:53,119 --> 01:12:00,199
get into that later, but the one of their is

1047
01:12:00,239 --> 01:12:03,439
in America at least, the World Army Faction. I think

1048
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:06,399
this kind of fascination developed around him. It is because

1049
01:12:06,399 --> 01:12:08,880
there was like these good looking like European broads always

1050
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:11,920
like clicked up with them, you know, and kind of

1051
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:15,079
like the Petty Hurst thing, you know, like it people

1052
01:12:15,199 --> 01:12:18,640
like really like like Americans are always like really fascinated

1053
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:21,239
by like women handling weapons. It was like literally like

1054
01:12:21,279 --> 01:12:25,159
a quasi like pornographic genre of like of like half

1055
01:12:25,239 --> 01:12:27,640
naked girls like like ripping rounds through you know, like

1056
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:31,720
like assault weapons. You know, like like like it's a thing,

1057
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:35,720
you know, and it's not I'm not being some like

1058
01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:38,319
corny academic to say it's like obviously like very sexual.

1059
01:12:39,079 --> 01:12:41,439
You know, like it's this to be clear to anybody,

1060
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:53,760
but you know, under his body, he gets sprung from

1061
01:12:53,800 --> 01:13:04,680
this high security prison, you know, by by you know,

1062
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:11,039
a masked man and these two young women, you know,

1063
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:21,199
and as the police opened fire on Andrew's body. He

1064
01:13:21,359 --> 01:13:24,720
leaped out a window like literally, you know, like it's

1065
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:36,039
some it's and you know they uh, they're uh they're

1066
01:13:36,039 --> 01:13:38,760
they're they're real. Man. Uh was able to snag him

1067
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:41,720
street side, you know and get away, you know, and

1068
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:45,079
like this kind of thing just didn't this kind of

1069
01:13:45,079 --> 01:13:47,000
thing that didn't happen. And you know, and like in

1070
01:13:47,039 --> 01:13:50,159
post war Germany, you know, Germany's orderly place, you know,

1071
01:13:50,279 --> 01:13:58,359
it's not just a cliche. You know, during uh, during

1072
01:13:58,399 --> 01:14:09,079
the struggle, uh Elrique Meinhoff who to disguise herself with

1073
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:13,920
like this long like like like wig. Like one of

1074
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:16,039
the police who tried to grab her by the hair

1075
01:14:16,199 --> 01:14:18,920
like snatches wi go off, you know, revealing that she

1076
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:21,880
had like you know, like a military style like blonde haircut,

1077
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:24,159
you know. And there was something confusion as to whether

1078
01:14:24,159 --> 01:14:25,600
she was like a man or a woman too, like

1079
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:26,840
an initial identification.

1080
01:14:28,039 --> 01:14:28,159
Speaker 3: You know.

1081
01:14:28,239 --> 01:14:30,840
Speaker 2: So this was a very this was a crazy situation,

1082
01:14:32,319 --> 01:14:41,840
you know, and this made uh, this didn't just make

1083
01:14:43,359 --> 01:14:47,079
this didn't just make you know, national headlines in the

1084
01:14:47,119 --> 01:14:50,000
Bunas Republic, but it was something like the police aren't

1085
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:51,680
prepared to deal with this, I guess we'll get into

1086
01:14:53,079 --> 01:14:56,800
The police had agents insinuated into all the major trade unions,

1087
01:14:57,079 --> 01:15:00,560
and especially for some reason like the transferred hation and

1088
01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:04,640
like railroad Workers Union was shot through with communists like

1089
01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:10,039
pro Warsaw Pact, you know, like Marxist Leninists, So they

1090
01:15:10,159 --> 01:15:13,079
viewed them as their ops. Okay, like the police did,

1091
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:16,600
like these kinds of crazy guys who are getting like

1092
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:20,399
sprung out of out of the joint, you know, by

1093
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:26,000
gun toting females, you know, and are are are pulling off,

1094
01:15:26,039 --> 01:15:29,439
you know, wild operations at least if to that point,

1095
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:33,279
not particularly organized well thought out, you know, like the

1096
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:41,840
firebombing department stores and you know, sloganeering, revolutionary stuff. You know,

1097
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:45,800
this that this weren't prepared for it, you know, like

1098
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:49,520
it was an issue of first impression and it wasn't traditional.

1099
01:15:49,920 --> 01:15:53,479
It wasn't traditional street volatility by the kind of Europe's

1100
01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:57,039
used to, you know, like something very like almost kind

1101
01:15:57,039 --> 01:15:59,359
of like American about that. You know, those kinds of

1102
01:16:00,119 --> 01:16:07,720
those kinds are outlaw actions, you know. So who who

1103
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:11,760
is Andrea's Bought Her? Andrea's Bad is born in nineteen

1104
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:16,600
forty three in May. He was born in Munich. His

1105
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:21,600
father was a historian, archivist and like a real intellectual.

1106
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:28,279
He'd been conscripted into Wehrmacht, you know, like like all

1107
01:16:28,319 --> 01:16:32,039
evil bodied men. He was taken prisoner by the by

1108
01:16:32,079 --> 01:16:34,760
the Russians in forty five and just was never seen again.

1109
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:38,279
He just never came home, you know, and bought his

1110
01:16:38,399 --> 01:16:44,439
mother never remarried, so Andrea's baughter. As a boy, he

1111
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:48,560
lived with his widowed mom. You know, uh who kind

1112
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:51,079
of you know, continued to pine from that. Someday you know,

1113
01:16:51,319 --> 01:16:58,079
dad was gonna come home, you know, a grandmother and

1114
01:16:58,199 --> 01:17:01,760
like various you know, aunts and uncles, but he basically

1115
01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:05,199
lived in this like female household without a father, you know.

1116
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:07,800
And there were there's millions of men who just never

1117
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:11,279
came home, you know, because and and one hundreds of

1118
01:17:11,319 --> 01:17:14,039
thousands of their fate was unknown. You know. They were

1119
01:17:14,119 --> 01:17:17,960
either they were taking prisoner and died in some gulag,

1120
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:22,479
you know, they they were cut to pieces you know

1121
01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:24,720
as small arms fire and died in the snow and

1122
01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:28,159
during you know, the desperate retreat they they were their

1123
01:17:28,199 --> 01:17:31,279
body was never recovered or identified, you know. So it's

1124
01:17:31,359 --> 01:17:36,479
some I'm telling you that that impacted the perspective of

1125
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:40,800
these boys when they became you know, young men. You know,

1126
01:17:41,079 --> 01:17:44,199
this like generation of fatherless boys who grew up in

1127
01:17:44,279 --> 01:17:48,520
this authoritarian society, yet that didn't really index with them culturally.

1128
01:17:50,039 --> 01:17:52,880
There's armed men everywhere who are there to police them,

1129
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:55,359
who aren't of their culture, who they can kind of

1130
01:17:55,399 --> 01:17:58,319
relate to, you know, racially and linguistically, you know, at

1131
01:17:58,399 --> 01:18:00,920
least like the White troops. You know that this had

1132
01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:08,920
to be an incredibly confusing situation, you know, and pretty

1133
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:14,720
much not exception the early bottom mine off grouping, they

1134
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:17,840
all had some kind of background.

1135
01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:23,960
Speaker 1: Like this, well nobody, nobody thinks of West Germany, what

1136
01:18:24,199 --> 01:18:27,600
is what what was to be called West Germany as

1137
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:32,520
actually being under occupation. They saw West Germany as the

1138
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:39,239
free democracy, western democracy as opposed to East Germany.

1139
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:43,680
Speaker 2: Which is crazy too because yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

1140
01:18:44,079 --> 01:18:48,000
You know, like if you look at just you know,

1141
01:18:48,079 --> 01:18:51,039
West Germany, like a quarter of Germany was you know,

1142
01:18:51,319 --> 01:18:56,119
the DDR historical Germany. So you have West Germany. The

1143
01:18:56,199 --> 01:19:03,920
occupation forces from forty nine and to ninety one were

1144
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:08,640
three hundred thousand men Americans. Another content, there's a quarter

1145
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:13,399
million contingent of British French and Bentelugs troops too. Half

1146
01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:18,600
a million men in a country smaller than Wyoming, you know,

1147
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:25,800
armed to the teeth, you know, ready for war at

1148
01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:30,039
a moment's notice, you know, and at at checkpoint Charlie.

1149
01:19:31,239 --> 01:19:34,680
You know, it was things were fairly civilized. But when

1150
01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:37,880
you went to the true like inner German border, like

1151
01:19:38,039 --> 01:19:41,239
my dad told me, and this track that William Odom said,

1152
01:19:41,279 --> 01:19:44,119
and with what you know, enlisted men who served this,

1153
01:19:44,279 --> 01:19:45,359
it it felt like a war.

1154
01:19:46,199 --> 01:19:46,359
Speaker 3: You know.

1155
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:52,640
Speaker 2: They were getting buzzed constantly by DDR aircraft sappers would

1156
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:57,680
uh would would screw with the concertina lire and like

1157
01:19:57,840 --> 01:20:03,520
probe their uh you know, the hardness of their other

1158
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:08,800
fixed defenses. This was not remotely normal, you know. And

1159
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:14,279
so and on top of that, like I said, basically,

1160
01:20:15,119 --> 01:20:19,840
you know, Germany lost five and a half million men.

1161
01:20:21,359 --> 01:20:25,000
You know, there was the country was full of like

1162
01:20:25,119 --> 01:20:29,000
little kids, like old people and women and and like

1163
01:20:29,079 --> 01:20:31,600
nobody had a father, you know, Like David Irving talked

1164
01:20:31,600 --> 01:20:33,560
about that because he said in England it wasn't really

1165
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:36,560
as bad, but he's like, you know, Irving's dad didn't die,

1166
01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:38,880
but he just kind of like went nuts and like

1167
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:40,960
left the family he was like a Royal Navy event

1168
01:20:41,039 --> 01:20:43,720
who like couldn't adjusted civilian life and everything's that he

1169
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:45,119
went to school with a bunch of guys who had

1170
01:20:45,159 --> 01:20:50,399
no dad. You know that that that completely that that

1171
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:54,920
creates weird pathologies, you know, and especially the Germans like

1172
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:59,159
they were you know, the kind of the kind of

1173
01:20:59,239 --> 01:21:03,000
like soft pedal and Morgenthele plan that became their constitution.

1174
01:21:03,439 --> 01:21:06,840
That's totally bizarre. I mean, aside the fact it's not

1175
01:21:07,119 --> 01:21:09,760
like the moral aspects, and aside from the fact that

1176
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:13,319
you know it's it's it's it's tailored to kind of

1177
01:21:13,520 --> 01:21:17,600
destroy the will of people to perpetuate itself. Like that's bizarre.

1178
01:21:18,359 --> 01:21:22,600
You know. You're like you're going to school and some

1179
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:25,920
guy or some lady is like reading off a lesson

1180
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:28,479
book that came from the Department of the Army, like

1181
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:32,359
written by some crazy Zionists, educating you about how like

1182
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:34,640
educating you about how like you're part of this like

1183
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:37,760
murderous race of people, you know, who must atone to

1184
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:41,520
the Jews because your history from meister eck Art until

1185
01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:45,960
Adolf Hitler is about anti Semitism. Like that's literally insane,

1186
01:21:46,800 --> 01:21:53,479
you know, like it's and that kind of thing made

1187
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:57,239
it impossible for people to trust an authority, you know,

1188
01:21:57,439 --> 01:22:03,279
and uh, Germany, more than most societies, was was in

1189
01:22:03,439 --> 01:22:06,680
his one based on social capital, you know, like that

1190
01:22:08,159 --> 01:22:11,680
that that that made people act really screwed, you know,

1191
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:15,199
and I that, in my opinion, the later iterations of

1192
01:22:15,239 --> 01:22:18,319
the bottom mine off faction are more complicated. It's something

1193
01:22:18,359 --> 01:22:20,199
that's more simple, it's just more complicated.

1194
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:26,359
Speaker 1: Just to inject this, my my mom would go My

1195
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:29,239
dad told me that my mom would go to East

1196
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:32,960
East Berlin, so she'd go through she'd go through Charlie.

1197
01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:36,880
And he made it sound like, you know, because he

1198
01:22:37,039 --> 01:22:38,800
was a cold water. He made it sound like, you know,

1199
01:22:38,960 --> 01:22:40,840
she was being you know, she would have to do

1200
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:42,159
strip searches and stuff like that.

1201
01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:45,039
Speaker 3: No, I asked my mom. My mom's like I had.

1202
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:48,800
Speaker 1: I was treated much worse coming back into West Germany

1203
01:22:49,520 --> 01:22:50,479
by people who.

1204
01:22:50,520 --> 01:22:51,960
Speaker 3: Look like me and sounded like me.

1205
01:22:53,439 --> 01:22:57,159
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, no, I'm sure that the museums over.

1206
01:22:57,079 --> 01:23:00,119
Speaker 1: There, people don't realize they had amazing museums and like

1207
01:23:00,199 --> 01:23:00,800
East Berlin.

1208
01:23:02,319 --> 01:23:04,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and it's the it's the traditional I mean,

1209
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:07,399
that was the traditional government district. Among other things too,

1210
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:09,560
you know what I mean like there's reasons, the reason

1211
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:12,640
why the Soviets wanted Berlin and why East Berlin became

1212
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:16,000
the capital. You know, I mean that's that was. That

1213
01:23:16,119 --> 01:23:19,079
wasn't just a mark on a map, you know, it

1214
01:23:19,279 --> 01:23:22,760
was it was just like a prestige objective, you know,

1215
01:23:22,920 --> 01:23:27,800
I mean, that's europe Central, you know, quite literally, and yeah,

1216
01:23:27,840 --> 01:23:33,720
it's it's an incredible place, and you know, but yeah,

1217
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:44,960
the as apparently uh bodery reputation even as a even

1218
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:51,720
as a little kid, as being highly volatile, extraordinarily strong willed,

1219
01:23:55,000 --> 01:24:00,399
he apparently resisted all authority sort of instinctively. I don't

1220
01:24:00,399 --> 01:24:05,039
I don't, I don't trust these uh official psychological takes

1221
01:24:06,319 --> 01:24:09,640
on people, you know in uh in America or Western

1222
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:14,319
Europe that that declare you know, operational defiance, oppositional defiance disorder.

1223
01:24:15,520 --> 01:24:19,880
But bout her, even some of his uh even some

1224
01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:23,920
of his comrades and like Rapis basically attracted what they

1225
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:30,680
said about him, and uh apparently apparently he he can't

1226
01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:34,880
strongly resent religious instruction. He refused to celebrate holidays, He

1227
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:41,199
refused even celebrate Christmas or observe his own birthday, you know,

1228
01:24:41,359 --> 01:24:44,720
and it and and again he even as uh. His

1229
01:24:45,199 --> 01:24:48,720
people had grown up with them, were emphatic that even

1230
01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:50,199
as a little kid he was, he was like a

1231
01:24:50,319 --> 01:24:59,159
kid that others followed, you know they uh. But as

1232
01:24:59,199 --> 01:25:02,680
he was sprung from prison on May fourteen, nineteen seventy,

1233
01:25:03,920 --> 01:25:06,880
his comrades didn't they did they didn't have a plan,

1234
01:25:07,439 --> 01:25:13,359
like they literally had no plan. Olriki Minoff she she

1235
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:16,199
literally had a friend, who's this actress who lived a

1236
01:25:16,279 --> 01:25:21,319
few streets away from the Central Institute of Social Research.

1237
01:25:22,359 --> 01:25:25,319
Alriqi Minoff was was an academic, you know, like like

1238
01:25:25,439 --> 01:25:29,439
social science type, and therefore she worked so her big,

1239
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:31,680
her big her in the in the guys. Big plan

1240
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:33,920
was well, well, we'll go to your friend's house and

1241
01:25:34,079 --> 01:25:36,520
demand it. You know. She let us, you know, like

1242
01:25:36,640 --> 01:25:38,279
use it as a safe house until we figure out

1243
01:25:38,279 --> 01:25:43,079
what to do, you know. And I mean they traded

1244
01:25:43,119 --> 01:25:46,600
shots with police, you know, one of whom was seriously injured,

1245
01:25:49,079 --> 01:25:54,119
you know, which which again I mean rarely rarely happened

1246
01:25:54,159 --> 01:26:00,479
in Germany, you know that. Or no, this friend of

1247
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:08,279
uh Riky Minoff probably under some degree duress, you know.

1248
01:26:08,439 --> 01:26:11,279
They they simply rang the doorbell and said, we need

1249
01:26:11,319 --> 01:26:16,000
your solidarity. You know, the revolution is started this poor

1250
01:26:17,159 --> 01:26:21,600
was effecting a woman then got like, you know, she

1251
01:26:21,720 --> 01:26:24,720
was housing these fugitives. And this was this was one

1252
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:27,840
of the biggest manhunts of of of post war hines,

1253
01:26:28,720 --> 01:26:33,119
you know, and almost uh, almost everybody they were looking

1254
01:26:33,159 --> 01:26:35,680
for was like sitting in this poor like randomly the's apartment.

1255
01:26:36,439 --> 01:26:46,279
But when this really kind of becomes when this really

1256
01:26:46,359 --> 01:26:49,840
kind of becomes interesting, is is their their next plan

1257
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:54,079
to move? And this this also represented the change in

1258
01:26:54,119 --> 01:27:00,239
the ideological disposition of the of the fraction and all.

1259
01:27:00,399 --> 01:27:05,520
But it also, you know, like I said, it indexed

1260
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:10,760
with a basic German tendency towards revolutionary action, and that

1261
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:15,920
was authentically German. Whoever sort of couched it was in

1262
01:27:17,479 --> 01:27:25,479
Marxist Leninists pseudoscience or you know, gobbledegook or however much

1263
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:31,680
it was kind of framed in these like liberationist narratives

1264
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:36,760
of the nineteen sixties. They agreed the next move would

1265
01:27:37,079 --> 01:27:39,520
they had to leave Berlin as soon as possible, obviously,

1266
01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:45,760
and they uniformly agreed they'd go to the Middle East

1267
01:27:48,399 --> 01:27:53,279
and uh, you know, the Palestinian resistance would would provide

1268
01:27:53,319 --> 01:28:03,239
them like aid and comfort as fellow revolutionaries. Somehow, either

1269
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:11,720
El Riki Minoff Bottr or both. They made the acquaintance

1270
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:16,039
of a man named Said Dudin. Sai Dudin is still alive.

1271
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:22,760
He he was a Jordanian emigrat. He was the son

1272
01:28:22,800 --> 01:28:25,760
of a Jordanian emmigrate to West Berlin. And he was

1273
01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:28,479
a political scientist. And his father was this big shot

1274
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:31,800
like like social researcher and like regional studies expert on

1275
01:28:32,359 --> 01:28:37,560
like Arab societies and political cultures. Sai Dudin's never been committed,

1276
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:40,399
convicted of a crime, always be en hanceled by the police,

1277
01:28:40,880 --> 01:28:49,279
you know, over decades for various reasons, said Dudden contacted

1278
01:28:50,039 --> 01:28:57,880
UH his people in Jordan. He arranged tickets with UH

1279
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:03,760
East German inter Fluge Airline, which was the DDRS National Airline.

1280
01:29:06,319 --> 01:29:11,840
He booked them nine rooms in UH East Berlin under

1281
01:29:12,039 --> 01:29:18,000
assume names, and he arranged for people to transport them

1282
01:29:18,039 --> 01:29:26,159
to East Berlin. You know. About three weeks subsequent, so

1283
01:29:26,319 --> 01:29:34,039
on June eighth, nineteen seventy, the first group of U

1284
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:49,000
of RIF operators departed Stonefield Airport in East Berlin for Palestine. Interestingly,

1285
01:29:49,239 --> 01:29:51,479
and I believe this and I have to describe, was

1286
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:57,600
all horse to Mahler before they departed for the Middle

1287
01:29:57,640 --> 01:30:00,720
East and in the immediate A man, I've been talking

1288
01:30:00,840 --> 01:30:08,520
several days of uh, the prison break, an anonymous phone

1289
01:30:08,560 --> 01:30:13,479
call was made to Michelle Ray. She was a former

1290
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:16,119
channel model when and she was a big jot like

1291
01:30:16,279 --> 01:30:19,600
lady journalist in French media. I'm trying to think of,

1292
01:30:21,079 --> 01:30:22,720
you know, back that this was back in the day

1293
01:30:22,760 --> 01:30:25,439
when you had like, you know, true like celebrity like newspeople.

1294
01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:32,319
She was a super glamorous like like figure like personage.

1295
01:30:34,239 --> 01:30:39,239
Ol Ricky Manoff undoubtedly told Horst Mahler whoever plays this call,

1296
01:30:39,279 --> 01:30:41,399
And I'm telling you, I'm certain it was Horse Mahler

1297
01:30:41,399 --> 01:30:45,880
who orchestrated this about like name like named Michelle Ray.

1298
01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:49,840
Because they'd very slightly known each other from this magazine

1299
01:30:50,199 --> 01:30:55,439
called Concrete, which was kind of like it was kind

1300
01:30:55,479 --> 01:30:59,600
of like Vanity Fair but more serious and uh olrik

1301
01:30:59,720 --> 01:31:03,920
min Off, you know, being this kind of university type

1302
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:08,119
like mingle in some high society circles. You know, she'd

1303
01:31:08,159 --> 01:31:12,479
come across Michelle Ray. And undoubtedly, because like women are

1304
01:31:12,479 --> 01:31:14,399
going to recognize these things, she's like, look, if you want,

1305
01:31:14,560 --> 01:31:16,560
if you want, if you want to capture cheap clout

1306
01:31:16,800 --> 01:31:19,720
and you want like rapid the headlines. You know, we

1307
01:31:19,840 --> 01:31:21,840
got to contact her because if we talked to a

1308
01:31:21,960 --> 01:31:25,399
German journalists or whatever they're they're going to try and

1309
01:31:25,399 --> 01:31:33,039
suppress this. So Michelle Ray was told that if she

1310
01:31:33,239 --> 01:31:36,279
came to Berlin, she get you know, a quote big

1311
01:31:36,439 --> 01:31:39,880
story about like the you know, the the new resistance,

1312
01:31:40,760 --> 01:31:49,920
you know, from the radical left. In a combination of

1313
01:31:50,000 --> 01:32:00,159
curiosity and maybe naivete, she agreed to meet them. Uh uh.

1314
01:32:00,880 --> 01:32:04,560
She arrived in Berlin a few days before the departure

1315
01:32:04,600 --> 01:32:09,800
to the Palestine on June fourth, and she she first

1316
01:32:09,920 --> 01:32:18,840
met Andre's Botter. Andre's bought her escorted her back to

1317
01:32:18,920 --> 01:32:23,319
an apartment's safe house where Ulriki Minoff, himself and a

1318
01:32:23,359 --> 01:32:30,319
woman named Gudrin Ensulin lived. Gudrin Enslin was, Uh, it's

1319
01:32:30,359 --> 01:32:34,680
hard to tell because of the kind of these more

1320
01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:37,439
really polyamorous hit these like that's what some people try

1321
01:32:37,479 --> 01:32:40,479
to characterize it as does Andrew's bought her like like

1322
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:42,640
like having sex with a lot of girls who was

1323
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:45,239
also like doing dirt with in the street and like

1324
01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:49,319
carrying out terrorist activities with It's like Gudrin Enslin and

1325
01:32:50,279 --> 01:32:53,239
Lriki Minoff like they were both like his girlfriends at

1326
01:32:53,319 --> 01:32:56,439
various times, you know, like get uh, depending on what

1327
01:32:56,600 --> 01:33:00,640
was going on. And Gudrin and Ensulin is very much

1328
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:04,199
more of like a doer like Gudrin Enslin. As we'll see,

1329
01:33:04,319 --> 01:33:05,880
she kind of seems like the kind of broad who

1330
01:33:05,960 --> 01:33:07,840
like could be your wheelman if you're like knocking over

1331
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:11,159
a bank like Oricky Minoff was definitely down. I mean,

1332
01:33:11,239 --> 01:33:15,279
she handled a gun to help spring Botter, but she

1333
01:33:15,399 --> 01:33:18,119
was very much kind of like a public intellectual type

1334
01:33:18,439 --> 01:33:21,000
who could do things like getting this French glamorous news

1335
01:33:21,079 --> 01:33:25,239
lady to show up. Okay, So it's pretty obvious Botter

1336
01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:28,479
like Manson. And I'm not saying I actually hold Manson

1337
01:33:28,560 --> 01:33:29,880
is on a steem. I'm not saying this is a

1338
01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:34,279
cast shade on Botter. He was very good at identifying

1339
01:33:34,399 --> 01:33:37,399
certain talents and women and getting women to do things

1340
01:33:37,479 --> 01:33:42,680
that he wanted, okay, and certain kinds of men that's

1341
01:33:42,800 --> 01:33:46,359
like their hustle. Okay. It's not just that they're only

1342
01:33:46,439 --> 01:33:48,319
in like girls a lot, although that's part of it.

1343
01:33:51,279 --> 01:33:54,079
Women have certain skill sets, women can gonna fly under

1344
01:33:54,119 --> 01:33:59,279
the radar there. That is an effective strategy depending on

1345
01:33:59,359 --> 01:34:02,279
what you're trying to do, you know it is. You know,

1346
01:34:02,319 --> 01:34:03,960
that's why I tell guys not to be like down

1347
01:34:04,039 --> 01:34:07,399
on women and talking about revolutionary conditions, because that's very wrong. Head.

1348
01:34:08,760 --> 01:34:10,800
But that's kind of the way to understand it. Like,

1349
01:34:10,880 --> 01:34:13,279
it's not like I said, you you'll read these kinds

1350
01:34:13,279 --> 01:34:20,399
of cd uh deliberately lurid kind of American or British accounts,

1351
01:34:20,439 --> 01:34:24,279
and it's they they presented like, oh, these were a

1352
01:34:24,319 --> 01:34:26,680
bunch of hippie degenerates, just him and some big orgy.

1353
01:34:26,720 --> 01:34:31,359
It's not what was going on. And I think that's

1354
01:34:31,399 --> 01:34:34,960
important to understanding the kind of dynamic here, you know,

1355
01:34:37,000 --> 01:34:41,920
but all three of them were disguised. Michelle ray annoy

1356
01:34:41,960 --> 01:34:46,399
you who they were really Apparently she didn't even recognize

1357
01:34:46,520 --> 01:34:48,920
l Ricky mine Off, even though they thevery vaguely knew

1358
01:34:48,960 --> 01:34:53,439
each other. And most importantly, of course, Mallard was there, okay,

1359
01:34:54,199 --> 01:34:57,319
and Mahler was going who basically engaged her, you know,

1360
01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:02,880
And like I said, my who remains remain an important

1361
01:35:02,920 --> 01:35:08,840
figure into the twenty first century and dissident quarters. I

1362
01:35:08,960 --> 01:35:12,560
believe he truly was like the the the ideologue behind

1363
01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:17,119
this whole enterprise. He was older, he was a lawyer,

1364
01:35:17,840 --> 01:35:22,319
you know he was. He wasn't a hot head like Botter,

1365
01:35:23,359 --> 01:35:29,359
you know. He it just attracts I if you you know,

1366
01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:35,319
index it with with with with similar groupings of people

1367
01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:41,560
under revolutionary revolutionary conditions or conditions they believe are eminently revolutionary. Okay,

1368
01:35:42,319 --> 01:35:50,079
it's that he represents a type. Okay. They told Michelle

1369
01:35:50,199 --> 01:35:55,319
Ray that you know, they kicked off the revolution that

1370
01:35:55,560 --> 01:35:59,119
you know, the Buddhists Republic, the Center could not hold that.

1371
01:36:00,640 --> 01:36:05,039
You know, they were leaving Berlin, uh to go to

1372
01:36:05,159 --> 01:36:09,600
Palestine and fight as fitting and and and possibly murdered themselves,

1373
01:36:10,319 --> 01:36:16,479
you know. Michelle Ray, she passed a copy of the

1374
01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:21,880
tape she made to their Spiegel, which went nuts and

1375
01:36:22,199 --> 01:36:25,000
blew it up, you know, and uh, the Roade Army

1376
01:36:25,079 --> 01:36:30,640
faction overnight became this internationally known mob of dangerous terrorists,

1377
01:36:31,239 --> 01:36:34,960
you know. And of course you know in America, the

1378
01:36:35,039 --> 01:36:37,119
claim was like, oh, this is this is the Ivans

1379
01:36:37,199 --> 01:36:38,960
like these these these people are you know, like kg

1380
01:36:39,119 --> 01:36:44,840
B or g or U. You know, the Uh, the

1381
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:47,640
Buddhist Republic was convinced that you know, there was there's

1382
01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:50,800
hundreds of people and cells that were about to become active.

1383
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:56,960
You know it Uh like the the like the European

1384
01:36:57,079 --> 01:37:02,560
Secure Internal Security Apparatus, you know, like like completely ships

1385
01:37:02,600 --> 01:37:06,479
pants in other words, so Miller knew exactly what he

1386
01:37:06,600 --> 01:37:19,119
was doing. Later, when asked why they'd sprung Botter from custody,

1387
01:37:20,760 --> 01:37:27,880
Alriki Minoff said, well, there were three reasons, she said.

1388
01:37:27,960 --> 01:37:31,399
First quote she said quote. First, of course, because Andrea's

1389
01:37:31,439 --> 01:37:34,880
Botty is A is a cadre, the road arm refraction.

1390
01:37:35,079 --> 01:37:40,880
They've got their own vocabulary. When they say cadre, they

1391
01:37:41,039 --> 01:37:44,359
use the word in a singular noun and denoting a

1392
01:37:45,800 --> 01:37:49,319
like a squad leader, you know, or like a cell commander,

1393
01:37:50,199 --> 01:37:56,359
you know, or or like platoon leader, you know. And

1394
01:37:56,479 --> 01:38:04,159
that's also why A until ninety eight when they ceased operations,

1395
01:38:04,560 --> 01:38:08,239
they'd always they'd always name like the action group that

1396
01:38:08,439 --> 01:38:12,560
was engaged, you know, after either somebody who was either

1397
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:16,800
somebody had been like deceased in action or somebody was imprisoned,

1398
01:38:17,600 --> 01:38:22,079
you know, like from their organization. You know, it had

1399
01:38:22,079 --> 01:38:26,800
its own culture. That was kind of interesting because nobody

1400
01:38:26,840 --> 01:38:28,760
else did that. It was very much its own thing,

1401
01:38:30,119 --> 01:38:33,880
you know. And their symbol was the red star with

1402
01:38:34,039 --> 01:38:43,039
a with a heckler and and coke SMG, you know,

1403
01:38:43,119 --> 01:38:44,720
not like an not a class and a call, not

1404
01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:47,640
a hammer and sickle. You know it was it's interesting,

1405
01:38:49,279 --> 01:38:58,760
but you know, and she said, second, you know we

1406
01:38:59,199 --> 01:39:01,119
we we had we had he said, we free to prisoner,

1407
01:39:01,680 --> 01:39:05,800
you know, his identity being incidental because you know, the people,

1408
01:39:05,840 --> 01:39:08,039
we need to show people what politics is all about

1409
01:39:08,119 --> 01:39:13,319
today and politics polop politics today is about smashing the

1410
01:39:13,439 --> 01:39:18,520
ability of the state too to impost course of measures. Okay.

1411
01:39:18,920 --> 01:39:21,319
And if that if that means killing policemen, you know,

1412
01:39:21,640 --> 01:39:23,840
extreme and durante, that might sound that people need to

1413
01:39:23,880 --> 01:39:26,199
get habituated to that, you know, and you can only

1414
01:39:26,199 --> 01:39:28,960
habituate people that by by by doing over and over

1415
01:39:29,000 --> 01:39:33,279
and over again. And he hope becomes normal. Okay. And

1416
01:39:33,439 --> 01:39:40,720
finally she said, if you can free somebody from state custody,

1417
01:39:41,279 --> 01:39:43,600
it's quite clear that you mean business and you're a

1418
01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:48,000
serious military actor. Okay, which as ragnag as they were

1419
01:39:48,039 --> 01:39:51,039
at first, that is somewhat true. Springing a man out

1420
01:39:51,039 --> 01:39:55,720
of close custody is not a small thing, okay. And

1421
01:39:55,840 --> 01:40:00,479
again that might sound kind of basic, but it's really not.

1422
01:40:00,760 --> 01:40:05,159
It's it's sophisticated from what they were trying to do.

1423
01:40:05,359 --> 01:40:08,560
And again I believe it's all horse Demoler. I'm sure

1424
01:40:08,560 --> 01:40:15,279
he had input from the others, but that's exactly kind

1425
01:40:15,319 --> 01:40:18,279
of the program he should have been pursuing, you know,

1426
01:40:18,479 --> 01:40:21,319
for what living about a rationality of what they were

1427
01:40:21,359 --> 01:40:27,039
trying to accomplish, you know, which was basically this credit

1428
01:40:27,199 --> 01:40:32,920
the Buddhist Republic and in so doing, you know, create revolutionary,

1429
01:40:33,239 --> 01:40:39,479
revolutionary conditions on the ground, whereby the extant structure, including

1430
01:40:39,520 --> 01:40:45,039
its ability to wage war as a key component of NATO,

1431
01:40:45,319 --> 01:40:48,399
is no longer possible, Okay. And when you consider it

1432
01:40:48,439 --> 01:40:52,640
in that context, I think my whole kind of hypothesis

1433
01:40:52,720 --> 01:40:58,600
of the matter becomes a little bit more persuasive. But

1434
01:40:58,680 --> 01:41:09,399
we're kind of getting ahead of ours. Who was Ulric

1435
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:14,680
Manoff or Ulriki Minoff. She was older than the rest

1436
01:41:14,720 --> 01:41:16,720
of them. She was born in the thirties. She was

1437
01:41:16,760 --> 01:41:24,239
born in nineteen thirty four in Oldenburg. Her dad came

1438
01:41:24,279 --> 01:41:27,960
from a long line of Protestant theologians. And again something

1439
01:41:28,000 --> 01:41:31,560
you'll notice here, these kids, these people, these young people,

1440
01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:37,079
they were basically, without exception, all from the Protestant heartland

1441
01:41:37,239 --> 01:41:42,800
of Germany. The National socialst Herland in Germany was the

1442
01:41:42,880 --> 01:41:48,600
Protestant northeast. Like it was not these guys like Goldhagen

1443
01:41:48,680 --> 01:41:53,119
who in the nineties were obsessed with claiming like you know,

1444
01:41:53,520 --> 01:41:56,680
VENSDP was some like Catholic organization or it was not

1445
01:41:56,880 --> 01:42:04,279
at all, and even that aside, like literally the National

1446
01:42:04,359 --> 01:42:13,279
soulci's heartland was rural and suburban Northeast Germany Protestant literally

1447
01:42:13,359 --> 01:42:28,119
Protestant pious Germany. Okay, and especially especially this first uh iteration,

1448
01:42:29,279 --> 01:42:32,319
you know this, this kind of deeply felt Protestant Pietism

1449
01:42:34,079 --> 01:42:36,640
was like an essential part of their upbring as well

1450
01:42:36,680 --> 01:42:42,079
as other strange things. Now, Riki Manoff also grew up

1451
01:42:42,119 --> 01:42:50,399
without a father. Basically, her father died when she was

1452
01:42:50,520 --> 01:42:57,720
very young of pancreatic cancer. Her dad had been curator

1453
01:42:58,399 --> 01:43:02,960
of the Jenna Museum, which was prestigious but not well paid.

1454
01:43:05,840 --> 01:43:14,079
So when he died, uh Olrik's mother and her and

1455
01:43:14,159 --> 01:43:19,720
her sister were in somewhat dire straits. You know, she

1456
01:43:20,000 --> 01:43:22,039
was at five and a half years old, you know,

1457
01:43:22,119 --> 01:43:24,680
she went over at a father in the picture her

1458
01:43:24,840 --> 01:43:31,119
mother and it's not clear her mother took to having

1459
01:43:31,439 --> 01:43:35,079
borders live in the house, you know, to for money,

1460
01:43:36,039 --> 01:43:45,279
and this uh young woman from the university moved in

1461
01:43:46,680 --> 01:43:54,399
named uh, we're not a remix, and it's not people

1462
01:43:54,399 --> 01:43:59,680
obvious today which would would speculate or that uh Olriki's

1463
01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:02,800
mother and we're out a remake, you know, we're like lesbians.

1464
01:44:03,079 --> 01:44:05,520
I don't think it's necessarily like necessarily the case at all.

1465
01:44:06,239 --> 01:44:08,239
But they ended up like moving in together and like

1466
01:44:08,399 --> 01:44:15,079
raising the girls together, you know, so well Rique live

1467
01:44:15,119 --> 01:44:19,720
in this kind of heavily like Protestant household with no father,

1468
01:44:20,079 --> 01:44:24,479
you know, just like her male counterparts, you know, raised

1469
01:44:24,479 --> 01:44:29,520
by these two kind of somewhat you know, kind of

1470
01:44:29,560 --> 01:44:37,399
a kind of dour Protestant women. She she her primary

1471
01:44:37,479 --> 01:44:41,079
school was an all girls school run by like nuns.

1472
01:44:43,439 --> 01:44:44,840
So this is this is again this is a totally

1473
01:44:44,880 --> 01:44:48,520
abnormal environment, you know, like in an environment to avoid

1474
01:44:48,600 --> 01:44:51,239
of kind of like normal male authority figures. You know,

1475
01:44:53,000 --> 01:45:05,960
that's that's not accidental. I don't think at uh b'nada

1476
01:45:06,039 --> 01:45:09,399
raimc After Olriki's mom died when she was a teenager

1477
01:45:10,159 --> 01:45:13,319
kind of became her surrogate mom, and she she convinced

1478
01:45:13,359 --> 01:45:16,720
Olrici to joined the Social Democrats and at this time

1479
01:45:16,800 --> 01:45:20,720
Billy Brandt. Hilly Brandt later became the mayor of West

1480
01:45:20,760 --> 01:45:23,560
Berlin and West Berlin was really kind of like a

1481
01:45:23,760 --> 01:45:26,600
culture into itself in all kinds of ways. You know.

1482
01:45:26,720 --> 01:45:29,239
It wasn't like the rest of the Bunus Republic. But

1483
01:45:29,399 --> 01:45:35,479
Billy Brandt, he a conciliatory posture with the East and

1484
01:45:35,600 --> 01:45:38,840
with the Soviet Union was as big a policy coup.

1485
01:45:40,039 --> 01:45:44,359
He became counselor, he went down in flames. His constant

1486
01:45:44,399 --> 01:45:50,239
companion and personal assistant, Gunter Gillam, who's a Behrmach veteran

1487
01:45:50,479 --> 01:45:54,760
who became a Stazi agent deep cover agent. Gunter Guillam

1488
01:45:55,399 --> 01:46:04,359
stole the uh NATO nuclear codes from uh the secured

1489
01:46:04,439 --> 01:46:12,479
location in in UH and then the consular is private

1490
01:46:12,920 --> 01:46:21,319
safe And I mean this was the UH It's it

1491
01:46:21,399 --> 01:46:24,199
was reporting, Like William Odoms said, like we we never

1492
01:46:24,239 --> 01:46:26,960
were like we meaning military and tell Us never recovered

1493
01:46:27,039 --> 01:46:29,960
from that intelligence breach. You know, They're like the Warsaw

1494
01:46:30,000 --> 01:46:33,119
Pack just had our number after that in terms of

1495
01:46:33,319 --> 01:46:37,560
UH you know, the uh O, our our ideas on

1496
01:46:37,640 --> 01:46:41,680
strategic escalation and everything else. You know. So but Billy

1497
01:46:41,760 --> 01:46:43,159
brand at this time was like it was like a

1498
01:46:43,239 --> 01:46:45,560
rising star, you know. And so we're not a remick

1499
01:46:45,680 --> 01:46:49,479
and and and young uh Riki mine off you know,

1500
01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:53,359
joined the Social Democrats and you know, all all kind

1501
01:46:53,399 --> 01:46:55,439
of like progressive people at that time. You know, they

1502
01:46:56,520 --> 01:46:59,239
they they opposed ad now or you know who who who?

1503
01:46:59,359 --> 01:47:02,600
Who do the Social Democrats was you know a fascist

1504
01:47:02,640 --> 01:47:15,479
aid whether than a fascistoid resurgence, you know, ULRIKEI became

1505
01:47:16,000 --> 01:47:19,960
insinuated into academ because they were not a remake who

1506
01:47:20,039 --> 01:47:23,399
was a professor at the Velber against a like educational institute. Okay,

1507
01:47:23,560 --> 01:47:31,720
and this was more so than America especially you know,

1508
01:47:31,840 --> 01:47:35,560
Germans kind of like invented the public education system. You

1509
01:47:35,760 --> 01:47:42,000
found a lot of radicals, especially female radicals, who came

1510
01:47:42,079 --> 01:47:48,039
out of this academic culture, including a Honaker's wife. Okay.

1511
01:47:50,800 --> 01:47:55,079
That's why, like I said, I think very much, had

1512
01:47:55,239 --> 01:48:01,039
uh Elrick mine Off not clicked up with Andrew's Botter,

1513
01:48:01,800 --> 01:48:05,600
she probablyould have been some like SPD organizer who you know,

1514
01:48:05,680 --> 01:48:08,319
like married some guy who was you know, some kind

1515
01:48:08,359 --> 01:48:11,680
of like milk toast, you know, social democrat. You know,

1516
01:48:11,800 --> 01:48:19,600
I uh I, I really believe that, you know, but

1517
01:48:20,119 --> 01:48:25,000
she did have you know, it was her her her it.

1518
01:48:25,199 --> 01:48:31,119
It was it was her kind of respectability that allowed

1519
01:48:31,159 --> 01:48:33,279
them to index with the media. You know. Again, she

1520
01:48:33,439 --> 01:48:36,119
was the one who identified you know, Michelle Ray as

1521
01:48:36,319 --> 01:48:39,239
the journalist they should see out. You know this, this

1522
01:48:39,399 --> 01:48:45,000
was an essential part of their of the propaganda aspect

1523
01:48:45,079 --> 01:48:55,640
of the campaign. Now, who is Gudrian Ensulin. Gudrian Enslin

1524
01:48:55,760 --> 01:48:59,800
was Swabian. She grew up in a village called Bartholoma,

1525
01:49:00,600 --> 01:49:03,000
which was which was not and is not in the

1526
01:49:03,079 --> 01:49:05,039
prost and of Heartland. We talked about it a minute ago,

1527
01:49:05,319 --> 01:49:09,720
but her father was literally a Protestant minister. Okay. Her

1528
01:49:09,800 --> 01:49:14,880
folks uh had been big in the vander Vogel movement

1529
01:49:15,760 --> 01:49:17,640
when and like then, you know that the pre national

1530
01:49:17,760 --> 01:49:22,760
Socialist days and a little bit beyond this. This was

1531
01:49:22,840 --> 01:49:25,319
kind of like a naturalist movement, you know, vonder Vogel

1532
01:49:25,479 --> 01:49:30,920
means like migrating birds. It was very it was very

1533
01:49:31,000 --> 01:49:39,199
part of like the focused culture, Okay. In nineteen fifty eight,

1534
01:49:39,880 --> 01:49:44,399
Gudran visited the USA, where she learned to speak English.

1535
01:49:44,760 --> 01:49:46,920
She was an exchange student for a year. She stayed

1536
01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:50,239
in Pennsylvania with this Methodist community and she liked the

1537
01:49:50,279 --> 01:49:54,880
Americans and they liked her. But she reported back to

1538
01:49:55,039 --> 01:49:59,079
her friends and like her you know, her Swabian village

1539
01:49:59,640 --> 01:50:02,199
and her parents that like well, you know, the the

1540
01:50:02,239 --> 01:50:07,079
Americans aren't pious enough, you know, they they they're there.

1541
01:50:07,119 --> 01:50:09,920
There's something superficial about you know, like the way the

1542
01:50:10,000 --> 01:50:15,960
way they're practicing protimism Inowers America. You know, she had

1543
01:50:16,000 --> 01:50:20,279
that kind of like radical pious perspective, you know that

1544
01:50:20,479 --> 01:50:26,840
I think indexed with national socialism in a basic way.

1545
01:50:33,000 --> 01:50:39,439
When she came back, she started studying English language and

1546
01:50:39,680 --> 01:50:47,199
uh German educational theory. But she quickly, but she quickly.

1547
01:50:47,399 --> 01:50:52,840
Uh well, it's interested in that when she met the

1548
01:50:53,000 --> 01:50:58,479
son of uh the gil Vesper. Bill Vesper was a

1549
01:50:58,560 --> 01:51:04,119
focused poet and a kid national socialist, okay, and his

1550
01:51:04,359 --> 01:51:08,880
son was very much in that vein, you know, and

1551
01:51:08,960 --> 01:51:11,720
he was this kind of like passionate wild guy was

1552
01:51:11,800 --> 01:51:16,880
like a poet himself, and he traveled to Spain a

1553
01:51:16,960 --> 01:51:20,479
lot because in those days, obviously Spain was friendly to

1554
01:51:20,600 --> 01:51:28,359
people like him and his father. Okay. Gudrian's parents were

1555
01:51:28,479 --> 01:51:30,840
upset by the kind of passion they saw with this

1556
01:51:30,960 --> 01:51:34,039
kind of like wild guy, and her father was trying

1557
01:51:34,079 --> 01:51:35,520
to throw him out of the house when he'd catch

1558
01:51:35,600 --> 01:51:41,359
him there. They were mollified when the couple uh got married,

1559
01:51:42,319 --> 01:51:52,039
but you know it uh again this uh this uh

1560
01:51:53,840 --> 01:51:58,119
burnwall the Vestper was the son of Villa. Apparently the

1561
01:51:58,239 --> 01:52:02,880
father and the son. There was there was huge tension

1562
01:52:02,920 --> 01:52:10,159
between them, beyond the kind of ordinary you know, difficult

1563
01:52:10,199 --> 01:52:18,479
between fathers and sons. But nevertheless, again you know, he

1564
01:52:18,680 --> 01:52:22,920
was still marinated in that Blood and Soil ethos and

1565
01:52:23,720 --> 01:52:26,319
he was making regular pilgramage to Spain. You know, this

1566
01:52:26,640 --> 01:52:28,640
is the first trip he took around was to Spain.

1567
01:52:29,920 --> 01:52:34,399
And I mean, even if, even if in a critical capacity,

1568
01:52:35,840 --> 01:52:42,680
you know, the son Burnvard was uh, it was kind

1569
01:52:42,720 --> 01:52:47,479
of like rejecting, you know, like the faith of the father.

1570
01:52:49,359 --> 01:52:52,439
I mean, you can't, you can't truly like escape like

1571
01:52:52,520 --> 01:52:56,079
your your heritage theologically or politically. Okay, so this is

1572
01:52:56,079 --> 01:52:59,199
the other one's first love, which was this incredibly passionate affair,

1573
01:53:00,279 --> 01:53:02,680
was with the son of a national socialist poet who

1574
01:53:02,760 --> 01:53:05,399
himself wrote like Blood and Soil Poets, where he took

1575
01:53:05,399 --> 01:53:10,840
her to Franco Spain. You know, I mean, I I

1576
01:53:10,920 --> 01:53:15,600
can't believe that Gudrian Elson simply like shed all sensibilities

1577
01:53:15,640 --> 01:53:19,600
of that, you know, and and and then spent their

1578
01:53:19,640 --> 01:53:21,479
maide of her life, you know, like staying up late

1579
01:53:21,560 --> 01:53:26,000
reading Communist Manifesto with her new comrades, you know, hers

1580
01:53:26,079 --> 01:53:35,520
capital but that and like I said, she by the

1581
01:53:35,600 --> 01:53:39,840
time she'd uh, by the time she connected up with

1582
01:53:42,079 --> 01:53:44,840
who wrote army fraction, comrade, she'd become kind of a

1583
01:53:47,640 --> 01:53:50,640
she she was kind of drifting in life. But that

1584
01:53:54,319 --> 01:54:01,279
that was basically the core of the first iteration of

1585
01:54:04,439 --> 01:54:12,399
the Roue army fraction. And for context, you know, to

1586
01:54:12,520 --> 01:54:16,560
distinguished to kind of like the German youth movement from

1587
01:54:16,800 --> 01:54:19,680
you know, kind of the American SDS movement its liberty nature.

1588
01:54:20,319 --> 01:54:24,479
You know, Germany was not a free society at our

1589
01:54:24,560 --> 01:54:32,720
successor as consular was Ludwig Erhard. Ludwig Erhard. He basically

1590
01:54:32,880 --> 01:54:38,600
banned the public they're like the like the playing of

1591
01:54:38,720 --> 01:54:42,319
music publicly unless it was like an official sanctioned performance.

1592
01:54:42,680 --> 01:54:45,319
Like the reasoning being, you know, stuff that stirs the

1593
01:54:45,399 --> 01:54:49,359
passion in is whether it's art or music or any

1594
01:54:49,479 --> 01:54:52,279
any kind of evocative things that can easily be transposed

1595
01:54:52,319 --> 01:54:56,039
into in the nationalist sentiments. And this will be a

1596
01:54:56,079 --> 01:55:01,800
return to Weimar. So kids, uh, who'd convene for spontaneous

1597
01:55:02,199 --> 01:55:05,199
music festivals or even guys just plugging into an amp

1598
01:55:05,279 --> 01:55:09,359
and you know, while wanting to play. Uh, that kind

1599
01:55:09,399 --> 01:55:12,479
of spontaneous set in their college courtyard. They'd literally be

1600
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:15,159
broken up by the police, you know, and told to

1601
01:55:15,199 --> 01:55:23,920
cease and desist. In the summer sixty two, this this,

1602
01:55:24,079 --> 01:55:28,279
this became a storically known as as the Schabing riots, okay,

1603
01:55:28,520 --> 01:55:32,039
and then referring to the Schabing district where most of

1604
01:55:32,079 --> 01:55:36,000
these you know, disturbing the peace incidents were you know,

1605
01:55:36,119 --> 01:55:40,079
kind of most enforcing the most kind of heavy handed

1606
01:55:41,359 --> 01:55:45,119
way to ethinically speaking, you know. So it's not I

1607
01:55:45,439 --> 01:55:47,600
want to disabuse people this idea again, that these these

1608
01:55:47,640 --> 01:55:50,319
were like sds hippie kids were kind of with the

1609
01:55:50,399 --> 01:55:53,000
same couch from the same cloth as like non draft

1610
01:55:53,039 --> 01:55:57,319
dodgers or like you know, fools following Abbie Hoffman and

1611
01:55:57,960 --> 01:55:59,920
having like a chip on their shoulder about ship. Like

1612
01:56:00,039 --> 01:56:03,720
it wasn't like that. You know, I probably got more.

1613
01:56:06,600 --> 01:56:08,720
I probably got somebody for the double in a way

1614
01:56:08,760 --> 01:56:12,720
that many people don't. But I think this is important,

1615
01:56:12,760 --> 01:56:18,680
not because of my own feelings on the matter or

1616
01:56:18,720 --> 01:56:22,000
private passions, but I mean because the historical record in

1617
01:56:22,039 --> 01:56:30,239
this regard is not it's not it's not correct. I

1618
01:56:30,319 --> 01:56:32,199
don't uh, I don't mean to be a propt, but

1619
01:56:32,239 --> 01:56:34,199
I gotta I'm in a lot of pain right now.

1620
01:56:34,239 --> 01:56:37,359
If we could pick this up, if we could pick

1621
01:56:37,439 --> 01:56:40,760
this up with a final episode, I can go for

1622
01:56:40,840 --> 01:56:42,239
ninety minutes or so and wrap it up.

1623
01:56:42,279 --> 01:56:44,199
Speaker 3: Sure, Sure is that okay?

1624
01:56:44,279 --> 01:56:44,479
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1625
01:56:44,520 --> 01:56:47,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, knock out a couple of plugs and we'll

1626
01:56:48,000 --> 01:56:48,439
get out here.

1627
01:56:49,720 --> 01:56:56,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Man. I'm h I'm busially updating my

1628
01:56:56,199 --> 01:57:01,199
sub stack and we're well into season two of the pod.

1629
01:57:01,720 --> 01:57:06,319
You can find both at Real Thomas seven seven seven

1630
01:57:08,600 --> 01:57:11,199
number seven hm A S seven seven seven dot substec

1631
01:57:11,279 --> 01:57:20,600
dot com. I'm on uh Instagram, I'm on UH, I'm

1632
01:57:20,640 --> 01:57:24,920
on t Gram. I remain on Twitter. There's still some

1633
01:57:25,000 --> 01:57:27,800
productive discussion there, I believe, or I wouldn't still be there,

1634
01:57:28,039 --> 01:57:35,760
and a way to poach new contacts. I'm at UH

1635
01:57:37,600 --> 01:57:44,039
Capital R E A L Underscore number seven h O

1636
01:57:44,199 --> 01:57:52,199
A S seven seven seven. It's the Real Thomas and yeah,

1637
01:57:52,279 --> 01:57:56,479
I'm uh. I'm busily uh trying to get this manuscript

1638
01:57:56,600 --> 01:58:02,840
banged out by uh by fall. And that's where yeah,

1639
01:58:02,880 --> 01:58:05,800
and again, forgive me if I entered this abruptly the problem,

1640
01:58:06,000 --> 01:58:07,760
that's okay.

1641
01:58:07,800 --> 01:58:10,399
Speaker 1: And head over to my website where I have a

1642
01:58:10,640 --> 01:58:14,359
page that's dedicated just to Thomas and my movie reviews

1643
01:58:15,119 --> 01:58:18,279
and links to all of it, and we'll probably have

1644
01:58:18,359 --> 01:58:19,800
to talk about setting up the next one.

1645
01:58:20,439 --> 01:58:25,000
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, man, Yeah, Mystery Science Theater. Yeah, I've

1646
01:58:25,000 --> 01:58:27,039
been very much enjoying it, man, and we've been we've

1647
01:58:27,039 --> 01:58:29,359
been getting a lot of like really great feedback from people.

1648
01:58:29,439 --> 01:58:30,319
It makes me feel good.

1649
01:58:30,560 --> 01:58:32,199
Speaker 3: Yeah all right, Thomas, thank you.

1650
01:58:33,720 --> 01:58:34,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, man.

1651
01:58:36,560 --> 01:58:40,439
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the peat Cononas show.

1652
01:58:41,600 --> 01:58:44,479
Thomas is here and uh going to wrap up the

1653
01:58:45,159 --> 01:58:46,000
Rhode Army fraction.

1654
01:58:46,479 --> 01:58:48,960
Speaker 2: Huh yeah, that's what I was thinking.

1655
01:58:50,520 --> 01:58:52,680
Speaker 3: All right, well, uh, where are we going with this?

1656
01:58:54,720 --> 01:58:56,039
Speaker 2: I mean, I wanted to drop a little bit of

1657
01:58:56,039 --> 01:58:58,760
biographical information about horse tomal Or because I think he's

1658
01:58:58,800 --> 01:59:03,079
kind of the key under standing not just kind of

1659
01:59:03,159 --> 01:59:06,359
like like the post war ideological culture and divided Germany,

1660
01:59:07,520 --> 01:59:09,520
but it's sort of the key to understanding the German

1661
01:59:09,680 --> 01:59:15,920
right as it exists today. And I I'm very I

1662
01:59:16,079 --> 01:59:19,319
I support Alternative for deutsch Land entirely. I think they're

1663
01:59:19,359 --> 01:59:21,439
doing great things. I'm not like putting shade on them,

1664
01:59:22,479 --> 01:59:24,960
but the fact is, if they continue to gain ground,

1665
01:59:25,000 --> 01:59:27,159
they're just gonna they're just gonna be banned. Okay, like

1666
01:59:27,239 --> 01:59:30,439
any any truly like right wing tendency in the Buddhist

1667
01:59:30,479 --> 01:59:36,000
Republic just just gets unceremoniously damned. Okay, So considering that

1668
01:59:37,760 --> 01:59:42,319
there was there, there's a radicalism just kind of intrinsic

1669
01:59:42,439 --> 01:59:48,720
to any any kind of like right wing tendancy, you know,

1670
01:59:48,840 --> 01:59:51,479
during the Cold War as well as today. But during

1671
01:59:51,520 --> 01:59:54,359
the Cold War, you know, whether you were on the

1672
01:59:54,479 --> 01:59:56,159
right of the left, there was there was there were

1673
01:59:56,199 --> 01:59:58,800
situations in places like Italy, into a lesser degree in

1674
01:59:58,880 --> 02:00:03,960
France where the true like hard right was tolerated some

1675
02:00:04,119 --> 02:00:09,960
that owed uh Operation Gladio type intrigues, which is a

1676
02:00:10,039 --> 02:00:12,560
whole like other topic that you know, we could devote

1677
02:00:12,560 --> 02:00:15,039
three episodes to. Part of that go to the fact

1678
02:00:15,079 --> 02:00:20,640
that some of these EU states what became EU states,

1679
02:00:20,680 --> 02:00:22,000
what I mean then it was just you know, the

1680
02:00:22,359 --> 02:00:25,439
the e C and adjacent countries. You know, they had

1681
02:00:25,479 --> 02:00:27,479
to trend somewhat lightly, like you didn't want to come

1682
02:00:27,520 --> 02:00:31,960
down too hard on anti communist elements, you know, lest

1683
02:00:32,159 --> 02:00:41,039
you lest you kind of offer the appearance of ingress

1684
02:00:41,279 --> 02:00:47,199
of uh of enemy dialectics into into into the political discussion.

1685
02:00:49,760 --> 02:00:53,039
West Germany was it was in a strange position, you know,

1686
02:00:53,079 --> 02:00:55,439
like we talked in the first episode. I think about

1687
02:00:56,479 --> 02:01:09,199
why Andres Botterer especially, but uh Elriki Mainhoff and some

1688
02:01:09,319 --> 02:01:12,600
of the other kind of core personalities of the first

1689
02:01:12,800 --> 02:01:17,239
uh Rote Army fraction were so fixated on Vietnam. Like

1690
02:01:17,319 --> 02:01:21,479
It's not just because this was the this was the

1691
02:01:21,600 --> 02:01:25,359
television era when you know, for the first time this

1692
02:01:25,479 --> 02:01:28,359
civilized world was was truly kind of plugged into like

1693
02:01:28,439 --> 02:01:33,880
a common visual experience. But the Bunis Republic, it really

1694
02:01:34,119 --> 02:01:38,279
was this like occupied, you know, client state of America

1695
02:01:38,359 --> 02:01:41,319
in a way that no other country was, like not

1696
02:01:41,399 --> 02:01:44,119
even Japan was owing to the kind of the the

1697
02:01:44,199 --> 02:01:49,720
cultural barriers there. So you know, and when you consider

1698
02:01:49,840 --> 02:01:53,039
too that the Bondis Republic was literally like the front

1699
02:01:53,119 --> 02:01:56,560
line of the Cold War, and it was clear that

1700
02:01:57,760 --> 02:02:03,760
they were basically going to storb the the brunt of

1701
02:02:04,319 --> 02:02:08,520
Warsaw Pact assault, including nuclear weapons, you know, if when

1702
02:02:08,600 --> 02:02:11,279
war came, and in those days, it seemed very probable

1703
02:02:11,319 --> 02:02:13,640
that war would arrive. Like this is why I think,

1704
02:02:13,760 --> 02:02:16,239
this is why, like Vietnam was so much on their mind. Okay,

1705
02:02:16,399 --> 02:02:19,920
like they weren't they weren't just being like virtual signaling

1706
02:02:21,000 --> 02:02:23,479
fools or something, or they weren't just trying to score

1707
02:02:23,600 --> 02:02:30,000
points with you know, kind of the the international peace movement, Like,

1708
02:02:30,079 --> 02:02:32,159
they weren't done that tip at all. Like, especially the

1709
02:02:32,520 --> 02:02:37,199
Rotimi fraction types, they had almost like Sourellian sort of

1710
02:02:38,399 --> 02:02:45,399
enthusiasm for violence. Okay, So that's important to understand. And secondly,

1711
02:02:46,880 --> 02:02:49,680
you know, I I'm not saying this to repeat myself

1712
02:02:50,399 --> 02:02:55,760
for its own sake, but the degree to which any

1713
02:02:55,960 --> 02:03:01,399
sort of radical or revolutionary or dynamic tendency, especially you know,

1714
02:03:01,640 --> 02:03:07,039
in among young people under youth cultures, you know, things

1715
02:03:07,119 --> 02:03:11,199
like that, tendencies like that, they're always kind of confined

1716
02:03:12,399 --> 02:03:16,600
to the zeitgeist okay, and the security age. All right,

1717
02:03:17,399 --> 02:03:20,199
So it wasn't just that, it wasn't it wasn't even

1718
02:03:20,239 --> 02:03:24,159
that people you know, I mean academic types would think

1719
02:03:24,199 --> 02:03:26,640
this way. But it's not like it's not like guys

1720
02:03:26,720 --> 02:03:31,560
and girls like prone to prone to radical director action.

1721
02:03:31,680 --> 02:03:33,199
And it's not even like they were thinking like, oh,

1722
02:03:33,319 --> 02:03:37,199
you know, national socialism and fascism was a disaster and

1723
02:03:37,319 --> 02:03:41,000
it's evil, so we we we've got some moral obligation

1724
02:03:41,239 --> 02:03:43,439
to kind of take up the red banner. Yeah, there

1725
02:03:43,439 --> 02:03:45,920
were some people who thought that way, but by and

1726
02:03:46,119 --> 02:03:51,319
large the only really conceivable modality of revolt or revolutionary

1727
02:03:51,359 --> 02:03:58,319
activity was either you know, Marxist Leninist or adjacent to that,

1728
02:03:59,119 --> 02:04:03,800
you know, like the degree to which uh uh, you know,

1729
02:04:03,960 --> 02:04:09,640
an above board if you know, very much outside the law,

1730
02:04:11,119 --> 02:04:15,399
you know, Gorilla tendency, Like it wasn't really conceivable for

1731
02:04:16,239 --> 02:04:19,600
such a tendency on the right to emerge. Okay, it

1732
02:04:19,720 --> 02:04:22,119
just wasn't. You know. I can't emphasize that enough. You know,

1733
02:04:23,159 --> 02:04:26,560
I realize, I'm I realize I'm very much a Hegelian

1734
02:04:26,600 --> 02:04:30,000
and and and some people disagree with that, but I

1735
02:04:31,159 --> 02:04:33,439
but you know, examples of this phenomenon legion, you know,

1736
02:04:33,560 --> 02:04:36,199
not just in the Budus Republic of the Cold War,

1737
02:04:36,840 --> 02:04:43,359
but obviously that's kind of the most striking and pure

1738
02:04:43,560 --> 02:04:45,840
like example of that. And I come back to the

1739
02:04:45,920 --> 02:04:48,000
persons of course Tomler again and again, not just I

1740
02:04:48,079 --> 02:04:51,159
think he's an interesting guy, but he's kind of like

1741
02:04:51,239 --> 02:05:02,359
the distilled essence of that tendency. It's the Malay's background.

1742
02:05:02,399 --> 02:05:05,960
He was older than his comrades, you know, he was

1743
02:05:06,039 --> 02:05:14,079
born in nineteen thirty six in Celesia. His father had

1744
02:05:14,119 --> 02:05:21,079
been a dentist and it dedicated national socialist. He attended

1745
02:05:21,279 --> 02:05:24,239
the Free University of Berlin, and then he immediately joined

1746
02:05:24,279 --> 02:05:27,960
at Thuringy Association, which was an old school right wing

1747
02:05:29,000 --> 02:05:31,119
like student fraternity. You know, this is the kind of

1748
02:05:31,159 --> 02:05:35,239
fraternity that guys like Colin Runner joined, Okay, you know,

1749
02:05:37,159 --> 02:05:44,800
but then immediately after, amazingly after graduation, he you know,

1750
02:05:45,000 --> 02:05:48,439
in his grad student immediately after taking as you know,

1751
02:05:48,880 --> 02:05:51,840
with the equillment of his undergrad degree, he joined the

1752
02:05:51,880 --> 02:05:55,520
member he joined the socialist student body, you know, and

1753
02:05:55,640 --> 02:05:59,720
he started participating in these protests against you know, nuclear

1754
02:05:59,760 --> 02:06:04,439
weapon men's being based in the Bunis Republic. You know.

1755
02:06:04,680 --> 02:06:06,560
Now this led to some people that say, like, oh

1756
02:06:06,640 --> 02:06:08,800
he was he was some sort of intelligent spook. I

1757
02:06:08,800 --> 02:06:10,520
don't think that's the case at all, and there's not

1758
02:06:10,600 --> 02:06:13,640
really any evidence of that. Like what Mahler was doing

1759
02:06:14,039 --> 02:06:16,239
was you know, like I said, it's my belief the

1760
02:06:16,319 --> 02:06:19,479
guy was always a national socialist. He was looking at

1761
02:06:19,520 --> 02:06:23,159
like what's possible you know, within the political culture that

1762
02:06:23,279 --> 02:06:31,720
he was situated, Okay, and everybody everybody in the on

1763
02:06:32,039 --> 02:06:36,479
the real right wing in the Buddhist Republic, you know,

1764
02:06:37,960 --> 02:06:42,359
whether you're talking about Otto Reimer or whether you're talking

1765
02:06:42,359 --> 02:06:46,000
about Hans Rudel, you know, or any of these or

1766
02:06:46,000 --> 02:06:49,680
any of these guys who constituted the early you know,

1767
02:06:49,760 --> 02:06:53,279
like Socialist Rights Party, Socialist Rights Party which became like

1768
02:06:53,319 --> 02:06:56,680
the NPD later, Like these guys all favored like a

1769
02:06:56,760 --> 02:07:01,039
demilitarized Germany for obvious reasons gay you know, not just

1770
02:07:01,159 --> 02:07:05,399
because that would spare Germany from destruction an event of

1771
02:07:06,239 --> 02:07:08,800
of of of war, but of war between the United

1772
02:07:08,840 --> 02:07:14,720
States and and Warsaw Pact, but also it would liberate

1773
02:07:14,840 --> 02:07:20,920
the political culture from from from the from these confining parameters,

1774
02:07:21,800 --> 02:07:25,600
you know. And as I'm sure people know, you know, Stalin,

1775
02:07:26,720 --> 02:07:32,199
the famous Stalin Memo, which you know, the American State

1776
02:07:32,279 --> 02:07:37,960
Department wouldn't even entertain. You know, Stalin proposed a totally

1777
02:07:38,039 --> 02:07:44,319
demilitarized Germany, you know that, and and and a constitution

1778
02:07:45,600 --> 02:07:51,239
that that guaranteed, you know, absolute neutrality. But of course

1779
02:07:51,680 --> 02:07:56,079
that would have allowed, if not facilitated, you know, complex

1780
02:07:56,119 --> 02:08:02,520
and independence with the Soviet Union, you know. And and

1781
02:08:02,640 --> 02:08:06,800
the position has always been of the American regime that

1782
02:08:06,920 --> 02:08:08,960
that's got to be prevented at all costs. I mean,

1783
02:08:09,039 --> 02:08:11,760
look at that, that's what under that's that's in a

1784
02:08:11,840 --> 02:08:14,840
large part of what underlies like this, this war against

1785
02:08:14,920 --> 02:08:17,039
Russia with Ukraine as a proxy. I mean, look at

1786
02:08:17,119 --> 02:08:21,920
look at the terrorist attack on a European energy infrastructure

1787
02:08:21,960 --> 02:08:24,920
and you know, the destruction of the North Stream pipeline. Okay,

1788
02:08:25,000 --> 02:08:28,199
So I don't think. I think if one understands kind

1789
02:08:28,199 --> 02:08:34,399
of the variables and the ideological tendencies that you know,

1790
02:08:34,600 --> 02:08:39,600
underlie what one's priorities are, a Fairey a you know,

1791
02:08:39,680 --> 02:08:42,800
either a national socialist or or any kind of right

1792
02:08:42,840 --> 02:08:45,640
wing partisan in the Buddhist Republic, that is now, I

1793
02:08:45,680 --> 02:08:54,039
don't think Mahler's trajectory is that conspiratorial. In nineteen sixty three,

1794
02:08:54,359 --> 02:08:58,600
Mahler he took his law degree. He set up a

1795
02:08:58,680 --> 02:09:04,920
legal practice in Berlin, and is uh his specialty was basically, uh,

1796
02:09:05,119 --> 02:09:09,840
industrial and labor law, you know, and he was he

1797
02:09:09,960 --> 02:09:15,960
was very successful with that. Okay, it's and he he

1798
02:09:16,279 --> 02:09:21,920
he continued to immerse himself and kind of student radicalism

1799
02:09:22,159 --> 02:09:24,920
obviously because he was older. Now I'm a professional man.

1800
02:09:25,279 --> 02:09:27,880
Like it's sort of like a sponsorship and mentoring capacity,

1801
02:09:28,520 --> 02:09:30,359
you know, Like he see he began providing like legal

1802
02:09:30,439 --> 02:09:34,800
advice to a lot of these people, you know, providing

1803
02:09:34,840 --> 02:09:37,239
them funding that a lot of them desperately needed because

1804
02:09:37,279 --> 02:09:40,479
you know, these these kinds are n g os. I

1805
02:09:40,520 --> 02:09:42,960
mean not just student organizations, but any any kind of

1806
02:09:43,119 --> 02:09:48,560
ng os, particularly in those days that weren't adjacent the

1807
02:09:48,680 --> 02:09:51,720
bond regime er you know, always like start of cash

1808
02:09:52,760 --> 02:09:56,760
and and things of this sort. I mean that was uh,

1809
02:09:58,039 --> 02:10:01,960
you know that that's that this was a consistent activity

1810
02:10:02,039 --> 02:10:06,520
that he was, that he was Immerston. And when we

1811
02:10:06,680 --> 02:10:08,640
last left off, and then we were talking about how

1812
02:10:09,560 --> 02:10:14,640
the core of uh, the of them, the Rode Army fraction,

1813
02:10:15,960 --> 02:10:20,560
you know, they ended up after after au Andreas Botter

1814
02:10:20,800 --> 02:10:25,760
was sprung from jail, you know, uh, they they ended

1815
02:10:25,840 --> 02:10:29,319
up they ended up traveling to the Middle East, you know,

1816
02:10:29,560 --> 02:10:34,840
through by way of East Berlin, and you know, owing

1817
02:10:34,920 --> 02:10:38,399
to their contact on the ground, said who'd been a

1818
02:10:38,960 --> 02:10:42,000
who was the son of a of a political science

1819
02:10:42,039 --> 02:10:47,119
professor of some of some prestige, you know, like I said,

1820
02:10:47,199 --> 02:10:48,880
like it's never been clear exact kind of like what

1821
02:10:49,039 --> 02:10:51,960
Sayid's like a resume is, but he's been harassed by

1822
02:10:52,039 --> 02:10:55,039
security forces for decades. I believe he's still alive. But

1823
02:10:56,960 --> 02:11:00,319
I believe that Horse tom all are like facilitated these

1824
02:11:02,239 --> 02:11:09,279
these sort of contexts. Okay, and in those days. In

1825
02:11:09,399 --> 02:11:13,640
those days, FATA was the dominant element of the PLO.

1826
02:11:13,760 --> 02:11:19,239
It's an imperfect analogy, but the PLO is a well

1827
02:11:19,279 --> 02:11:22,319
I mean this. They they fought a war with each

1828
02:11:22,319 --> 02:11:26,720
other about a decade ago, but it was always a

1829
02:11:26,840 --> 02:11:32,800
tense alliance between Hamas and Fata, and FATA traditionally was

1830
02:11:33,399 --> 02:11:39,520
was a secularist, you know, Marxist Leninist adjacent non state actor.

1831
02:11:41,840 --> 02:11:45,800
An imperfect analogy would be what became combined loyalists and

1832
02:11:45,840 --> 02:11:49,319
military command in Northern Ireland between the UVF and the

1833
02:11:49,479 --> 02:11:54,720
uda u f f okay. But in those days, you know,

1834
02:11:54,920 --> 02:12:02,239
fata I was definitely like the dominant element, and their

1835
02:12:02,319 --> 02:12:08,680
competitor was the Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine, which

1836
02:12:08,720 --> 02:12:16,199
had been founded by a Greek Orthodox Christian. The PFLP

1837
02:12:16,479 --> 02:12:20,039
enjoyed a lot of support from the East Bloc and

1838
02:12:22,399 --> 02:12:28,680
they're tactical and strategic orientation. We're both very much oriented

1839
02:12:28,720 --> 02:12:33,119
towards a global kind of a military politique. What I

1840
02:12:33,199 --> 02:12:38,279
mean by that is they were very very active in Africa,

1841
02:12:38,399 --> 02:12:42,000
they were very very active in Europe. You know, they

1842
02:12:42,039 --> 02:12:47,560
were very very active in Indonesia for a time. You know,

1843
02:12:47,640 --> 02:12:51,439
they're they they said that you know, we've got a

1844
02:12:52,119 --> 02:12:55,399
we've got to treat this as an international struggle, you know. Yeah,

1845
02:12:55,479 --> 02:12:59,640
so the liberation of Palestine obviously first and foremost is

1846
02:13:00,239 --> 02:13:02,800
you know, it's got to be our the kind of

1847
02:13:03,520 --> 02:13:08,600
share punk of our of our of our military activity.

1848
02:13:09,359 --> 02:13:12,720
But this has to be international in character, you know.

1849
02:13:15,520 --> 02:13:18,680
And uh, for those who remember or those who are

1850
02:13:18,760 --> 02:13:23,479
students of Cold War history, the bombing of the Discotheque

1851
02:13:23,479 --> 02:13:28,199
in West Berlin that you know, uh killed three American

1852
02:13:28,319 --> 02:13:32,119
soldiers and wounded a few dozen people. You know, the

1853
02:13:32,239 --> 02:13:35,239
label Discothech, which was a which was a known hangout

1854
02:13:35,359 --> 02:13:39,000
for US occupation, for USS it was the popular front

1855
02:13:39,039 --> 02:13:42,079
for the liberation at Palestine. General command that pulled that off,

1856
02:13:42,680 --> 02:13:46,239
you know, very much handing glove with the Stazi. Okay,

1857
02:13:46,399 --> 02:13:51,439
but but fata plo. You know, they felt they felt

1858
02:13:51,479 --> 02:13:53,920
like they had something to prove in this regard. Okay,

1859
02:13:54,000 --> 02:13:58,000
they felt comparatively like very provincial, you know, they felt

1860
02:13:58,079 --> 02:14:01,119
like they were kind of like losing the uh, the

1861
02:14:01,199 --> 02:14:04,800
propaganda battle and in the court of world opinion. Okay.

1862
02:14:05,199 --> 02:14:07,960
So the guy like I'm speculating here, but I think

1863
02:14:08,039 --> 02:14:11,399
the facts of one kind of reads me the lines.

1864
02:14:12,359 --> 02:14:15,720
The man like horse Tomaler you know who by this time,

1865
02:14:15,760 --> 02:14:17,800
again he wasn't the kid. He was in his thirties,

1866
02:14:18,520 --> 02:14:19,800
you know, he was. He was a He was a

1867
02:14:19,840 --> 02:14:23,640
well off attorney, you know, with a with a law

1868
02:14:23,720 --> 02:14:27,399
practice in Berlin. I believe he spoke a few languages,

1869
02:14:27,920 --> 02:14:31,279
you know, him approaching Fata and saying, you know, I

1870
02:14:31,359 --> 02:14:34,039
have these like young people and they very much committed

1871
02:14:34,039 --> 02:14:37,520
to the revolution, and you know they they you know,

1872
02:14:37,600 --> 02:14:42,319
they they they want to learn basically, uh, they basically

1873
02:14:42,359 --> 02:14:44,720
want to learn like real warfare from you. I think

1874
02:14:44,760 --> 02:14:47,840
that would have been like very appealing to them. You know.

1875
02:14:51,319 --> 02:14:54,560
Now this first the first iteration of the road attorney Fraction,

1876
02:14:54,720 --> 02:14:59,520
Like as we've talked about, it had many problems. Botter himself,

1877
02:15:00,239 --> 02:15:02,960
Andrea's Bodder I think was something of a crazy person.

1878
02:15:03,119 --> 02:15:08,680
He was a he was a thrill seeker. He was

1879
02:15:08,760 --> 02:15:14,800
probably a psychopath, you know. Gundrd Enslin I think was

1880
02:15:14,880 --> 02:15:19,640
actually very committed. And you know, men and women are different,

1881
02:15:19,720 --> 02:15:23,039
like we've talked about, but female revolutionaries are important. They

1882
02:15:23,079 --> 02:15:26,920
serve an important role and people shouldn't be down on

1883
02:15:27,039 --> 02:15:30,359
them because many of them are very very very committed. Okay,

1884
02:15:30,560 --> 02:15:34,600
Like it's not like women aren't weaker than men like uh,

1885
02:15:35,039 --> 02:15:38,680
I mean physically obviously there's you know, a disparity there.

1886
02:15:38,760 --> 02:15:42,520
But I think Gundrian Enslin, especially going to a kind

1887
02:15:42,520 --> 02:15:47,960
of pied his background was uh was was was probably

1888
02:15:48,640 --> 02:15:55,000
kind of like the most stable of that Coterie el

1889
02:15:55,079 --> 02:16:01,479
Riqui mine off was kind of a it was kind

1890
02:16:01,520 --> 02:16:05,600
of a cliche, you know, like a middle class lady

1891
02:16:05,760 --> 02:16:11,359
who you know, kind of was easily misled. I believe

1892
02:16:12,479 --> 02:16:15,439
you know, this was not the best mentioned material around

1893
02:16:15,520 --> 02:16:20,199
which to build a revolutionary codery. And later that changed.

1894
02:16:20,319 --> 02:16:24,560
Later iterations of the root Army fraction I were incredibly

1895
02:16:24,600 --> 02:16:28,159
effective and like as we talked about, as we'll talk

1896
02:16:28,199 --> 02:16:32,159
about some more. I by that by the nineteen eighties,

1897
02:16:33,760 --> 02:16:37,719
the third iteration of the RIF had become very much

1898
02:16:38,680 --> 02:16:41,719
like a like an implement of the Stazi. Okay, you

1899
02:16:41,760 --> 02:16:43,559
know they were the kind of ops they were pulling

1900
02:16:43,600 --> 02:16:47,280
off then, was they were trying to murder Alexander Haig

1901
02:16:47,680 --> 02:16:51,120
and things like this. Okay, like this're you're talking about

1902
02:16:51,120 --> 02:16:56,280
an entire lady caliber of people and an entirely an

1903
02:16:56,440 --> 02:17:01,200
entirely more ambitious operational sense of building of the But

1904
02:17:03,440 --> 02:17:11,959
when the road Timmy fraction arrived in Jordan's horse Tomler

1905
02:17:12,079 --> 02:17:20,399
was already there and their their hosts, uh, the the

1906
02:17:20,799 --> 02:17:25,159
their their PLO hosts were originally pretty suspicious of them,

1907
02:17:25,440 --> 02:17:27,360
like not because they thought that they might be ops

1908
02:17:27,360 --> 02:17:31,760
who were you know, they're as double agents or something.

1909
02:17:31,879 --> 02:17:36,479
But they just weren't convinced they were serious. So initially, uh,

1910
02:17:37,719 --> 02:17:41,000
they kind of treated them like they were tourists, you know,

1911
02:17:41,280 --> 02:17:45,360
uh basically you know, took them around and kind of

1912
02:17:45,440 --> 02:17:50,239
filled them with with political propaganda about you know, Israeli

1913
02:17:50,280 --> 02:17:52,600
atrocities and which which were true. I mean, they weren't

1914
02:17:52,840 --> 02:17:56,040
you know that this this wasn't being confabulated. You know,

1915
02:17:56,120 --> 02:17:58,200
they take them to their rifle range and things like this.

1916
02:17:58,520 --> 02:18:01,479
They you know, they'd let it sitting on classes about

1917
02:18:01,760 --> 02:18:04,959
you know, you know where they they where they they

1918
02:18:05,040 --> 02:18:10,600
study things like you know Mao's uh Red Book. This

1919
02:18:10,760 --> 02:18:16,520
soon caught the fair amount of hostility, but when Botter

1920
02:18:16,639 --> 02:18:25,879
insisted on being treated like any other revolutionary cadre, he

1921
02:18:26,000 --> 02:18:30,559
started he kind of started showing as uh showing his

1922
02:18:30,639 --> 02:18:37,000
bourgeoisie colors like he uh, he started he he'd refused

1923
02:18:37,040 --> 02:18:42,680
to wear BDU's and caps, you know, he'd wear like Uh,

1924
02:18:43,319 --> 02:18:46,559
he'd wear like civilian pants, like jeans or like bekinds,

1925
02:18:46,600 --> 02:18:49,200
like velvet trousers that like hipster types like in those

1926
02:18:49,280 --> 02:18:52,959
days were like even during like training maneuvers. You know,

1927
02:18:54,000 --> 02:18:56,920
so you got this guy like, you know, wriggling under

1928
02:18:57,000 --> 02:19:01,959
barbed wire like on the train around like uh, you know,

1929
02:19:02,040 --> 02:19:07,639
wearing his like designer jeans and stuff. The as I

1930
02:19:07,680 --> 02:19:15,600
think I mentioned before, the uh, the FATA had no

1931
02:19:17,399 --> 02:19:20,440
they had no problem with then, they had no problem

1932
02:19:20,479 --> 02:19:22,760
with like training women to fight, you know, because because

1933
02:19:22,760 --> 02:19:27,680
they had to, you know, and in any revolutionary circumstance

1934
02:19:28,200 --> 02:19:35,879
that's uh essential anyway. But you know they obviously like

1935
02:19:35,959 --> 02:19:39,799
sleeping quarters and stuff were segregated, as were facilities and

1936
02:19:42,440 --> 02:19:47,399
body and Minehoff like refused to accept this. You know,

1937
02:19:47,559 --> 02:19:53,760
they presented them their auspices of you know, equality between

1938
02:19:53,799 --> 02:19:58,680
the sexes. But you know, uh, like for context, a

1939
02:19:58,760 --> 02:20:01,879
lot of these young uh, a lot of these young

1940
02:20:02,280 --> 02:20:06,000
Arab fighters, you know, we're like we were more than kids.

1941
02:20:06,079 --> 02:20:08,280
Like they they've never even seen like a naked woman before.

1942
02:20:08,360 --> 02:20:12,040
You can imagine like how disruptive this was. And this

1943
02:20:12,319 --> 02:20:18,639
uh almost led to the camp commandant, who was an Algerian.

1944
02:20:19,959 --> 02:20:24,920
You know, almost the almost you know, like like like

1945
02:20:25,040 --> 02:20:29,159
banning them from the from the camp and uh, you know,

1946
02:20:29,399 --> 02:20:33,440
putting them on a plane back to back to Berlin.

1947
02:20:33,959 --> 02:20:38,600
But Mahler was uh was able to kind of like

1948
02:20:38,680 --> 02:20:41,959
finesse things at least in the short term. And like

1949
02:20:42,079 --> 02:20:45,399
apparently one of the uh, one of the student types

1950
02:20:46,639 --> 02:20:52,440
who the Rotimi fraction it brought along as a recruit,

1951
02:20:54,639 --> 02:20:58,120
like uh asked why there was no Coca Cola machines

1952
02:20:58,239 --> 02:21:00,520
like in camp, Like you know, like these people are

1953
02:21:00,559 --> 02:21:07,120
completely completely uh, disengaged from reality. So this was not

1954
02:21:08,000 --> 02:21:10,319
I emphasized this because like this was not like an

1955
02:21:10,360 --> 02:21:17,840
auspicious start to the Rogue Army fraction. Then it it's

1956
02:21:17,879 --> 02:21:21,479
important to consider that because like again a lot of

1957
02:21:21,559 --> 02:21:27,040
what you'll read, particularly in the era I mean really

1958
02:21:27,120 --> 02:21:29,239
from really from the eighties, from like later Cold War,

1959
02:21:30,520 --> 02:21:34,200
when the Iraf, when the third iteration it was still active,

1960
02:21:34,520 --> 02:21:38,120
Like we'll talk about it as if it was this Stazi,

1961
02:21:39,680 --> 02:21:43,479
the kind of squad of terrorists that you know from

1962
02:21:43,559 --> 02:21:48,159
inception was it was a sort of highly effective, you know,

1963
02:21:48,879 --> 02:21:51,920
cadre element. Like it's not the case at all. It

1964
02:21:52,000 --> 02:21:56,040
was a very spontaneous development. It was very much an

1965
02:21:56,120 --> 02:22:03,319
organic uh development of the uh the kind of Berliner

1966
02:22:03,479 --> 02:22:08,319
like student culture. Like the fact that the Stazi and

1967
02:22:08,399 --> 02:22:16,200
in my opinion specifically Marcus Wolf was able to was

1968
02:22:16,280 --> 02:22:19,920
able to uh, you know, kind of molded into something

1969
02:22:20,000 --> 02:22:27,159
highly effective, is is a credit to Stazi operational sophistication

1970
02:22:28,600 --> 02:22:30,639
as well as uh, you know, the kind of like

1971
02:22:30,799 --> 02:22:38,799
learning curve that emerged as these kinds of asymmetrical conflicts

1972
02:22:39,639 --> 02:22:43,840
of which, you know, like Vietnam. I mean, the Vietnam

1973
02:22:43,959 --> 02:22:47,360
was was many things, including like a very very much

1974
02:22:47,399 --> 02:22:49,959
a conventional war, but there was also an asymmetrical aspect

1975
02:22:50,040 --> 02:22:52,719
to it. But as these kinds of conflicts you know,

1976
02:22:53,159 --> 02:22:59,079
sort of jumped off in earnest, you know, people with

1977
02:22:59,239 --> 02:23:01,639
partisan leaning, it came kind of like more and more

1978
02:23:01,680 --> 02:23:05,440
habituated to the reality of these things. But this this

1979
02:23:05,639 --> 02:23:08,159
is very early on in that and that kind of

1980
02:23:08,280 --> 02:23:15,040
conflict cycle. You know, in these these Palestinians, I mean

1981
02:23:15,079 --> 02:23:18,120
for years, you know, they've been they've been living on

1982
02:23:18,280 --> 02:23:23,959
canned meat, you know, like military rations, you know, stuff

1983
02:23:24,040 --> 02:23:29,799
from uh like canned canned goods from United Nations relief organizations.

1984
02:23:30,799 --> 02:23:34,360
You know, they uh, the the you know, like I

1985
02:23:34,799 --> 02:23:40,920
like fresh and meat was and and vegetables and fruit

1986
02:23:41,079 --> 02:23:43,200
was I mean like a you know, it was was

1987
02:23:43,239 --> 02:23:44,840
a luxury to them, you know, So I mean this

1988
02:23:46,840 --> 02:23:51,520
this brit a fair amount of resentment too. And there

1989
02:23:51,639 --> 02:23:57,799
was a there's an anecdote of apparently uh oh ricky

1990
02:23:57,920 --> 02:24:05,719
meinhoff on uh on the firing range an instructor uh

1991
02:24:06,280 --> 02:24:12,799
handed or uh a Soviet grenade, which we're like unlike

1992
02:24:12,879 --> 02:24:16,520
the uh unlike the old Vermont potato mash or grenades.

1993
02:24:19,239 --> 02:24:22,719
The these are the ones, uh that they look kind

1994
02:24:22,719 --> 02:24:25,280
of egg like, you know, and uh, you unscrew the

1995
02:24:25,360 --> 02:24:29,159
cap to free up the ring, you know, and then

1996
02:24:29,239 --> 02:24:31,479
like you pull up you'd pull you pull a ring

1997
02:24:31,559 --> 02:24:35,840
to pull the pin to pull The instructor showed ol

1998
02:24:35,920 --> 02:24:38,440
Rike how to like you know, under scree the cap,

1999
02:24:38,840 --> 02:24:41,879
you know, to liberate the ring. And then she pulled

2000
02:24:41,920 --> 02:24:44,639
it and like held it as like the grenade band

2001
02:24:44,680 --> 02:24:46,319
of hass And they asked, like what do I do now?

2002
02:24:47,399 --> 02:24:53,399
And uh, just throw it, throw it like ran forever.

2003
02:24:54,319 --> 02:24:58,000
But this is the kind of stuff, uh, this is

2004
02:24:58,000 --> 02:25:01,239
the kind of stuff they were dealing with the Palestinians.

2005
02:25:01,280 --> 02:25:04,399
I mean like uh kind of a kind of a

2006
02:25:04,520 --> 02:25:12,440
crazy man. And in the person of bot Her and uh,

2007
02:25:13,200 --> 02:25:15,719
most of the others, Uh, you know, a lot of

2008
02:25:17,120 --> 02:25:22,399
a lot of balls and no common sense whatsoever. I do.

2009
02:25:24,840 --> 02:25:27,399
But what what, however, what something that did do? I

2010
02:25:27,479 --> 02:25:33,120
think those who, including Andrew's Botter himself, the experience in

2011
02:25:33,239 --> 02:25:37,680
Jordans None of these, none of these people except uh

2012
02:25:38,920 --> 02:25:42,719
l Riki mine Off had been a little kid during

2013
02:25:42,799 --> 02:25:48,719
the war years, and so I had Mahler, although Mahler

2014
02:25:48,879 --> 02:25:51,920
was obviously as you know we just discussed, had kind

2015
02:25:51,920 --> 02:25:55,360
of a more sophisticated sensibility all kinds of ways. But

2016
02:25:55,440 --> 02:25:58,879
the rest of them had no experience of war or combat.

2017
02:26:01,840 --> 02:26:02,239
Speaker 3: The uh.

2018
02:26:03,639 --> 02:26:07,159
Speaker 2: And in this in this Fetiine camp where they were training,

2019
02:26:09,079 --> 02:26:14,639
you know, Israeli bombers were regularly circle the sky. Jordanian

2020
02:26:14,760 --> 02:26:18,440
troops were at a stabs the main line of resistance

2021
02:26:18,479 --> 02:26:24,319
only a few kilometers away from the camp. Everybody was

2022
02:26:24,760 --> 02:26:28,000
issued live ammunition at all time. Is because at any time,

2023
02:26:28,159 --> 02:26:32,799
you know, and the idea of consult you know. So whatever,

2024
02:26:35,959 --> 02:26:38,639
however however cringe some of these antics might have been,

2025
02:26:41,239 --> 02:26:47,280
it did. Uh. It did prepare these people for for

2026
02:26:47,399 --> 02:26:52,840
real comic situations, you know, in a way that ordinary

2027
02:26:53,000 --> 02:26:59,239
training could not. And I think that that's significant too,

2028
02:26:59,520 --> 02:27:08,239
because uh, this uh, this this, this, this training lark

2029
02:27:09,559 --> 02:27:12,000
is a lot of court of Storian is right about

2030
02:27:12,040 --> 02:27:14,000
it if it was just a sort of like fiasco

2031
02:27:14,159 --> 02:27:18,319
and and kind of like comedy of errors. But yeah,

2032
02:27:18,399 --> 02:27:21,159
I disagree, man, Like, yeah, there was that aspect of it.

2033
02:27:21,360 --> 02:27:24,559
But you have you situate anybody in a combat zone

2034
02:27:24,680 --> 02:27:28,520
like that, you know, uh, while they're undergoing an intense

2035
02:27:28,600 --> 02:27:30,559
kind of regiment of you know, it's only just like

2036
02:27:30,639 --> 02:27:33,239
great basic you know, kind of like imagery skills and things,

2037
02:27:33,319 --> 02:27:35,159
and like you know how to read a map and

2038
02:27:35,200 --> 02:27:37,879
a compass, and you know how to keep your clash

2039
02:27:37,959 --> 02:27:40,319
tack off clean and how to you know how to

2040
02:27:40,440 --> 02:27:42,879
load it and how to use iron sights and things.

2041
02:27:43,440 --> 02:27:50,399
You know, that learning these practical skills when you're quite

2042
02:27:50,479 --> 02:27:54,760
literally in a combat zone, even if you're not taking

2043
02:27:54,840 --> 02:27:59,520
hostile fire every day or something. And I I I

2044
02:27:59,600 --> 02:28:04,559
think that that, I think that confers a certain benefit

2045
02:28:04,680 --> 02:28:10,479
that they can't easily be quantified by traditional metrics. But uh,

2046
02:28:11,280 --> 02:28:16,159
also too, because Palestine was very much it wasn't just

2047
02:28:16,280 --> 02:28:22,680
the front line of of the Arab and Islamic struggle

2048
02:28:23,959 --> 02:28:31,239
against Israel, but you know, the the Algerian war was

2049
02:28:31,399 --> 02:28:35,680
Uh was still fresh in everybody's mind, and it was

2050
02:28:35,719 --> 02:28:41,040
still underway in some ways. You know, the there was

2051
02:28:41,120 --> 02:28:50,440
a certain prestige factor two to making contact UH with

2052
02:28:50,680 --> 02:28:56,639
the with the camp commandant and other personages around him

2053
02:28:58,319 --> 02:29:02,920
like Abu Hassan, who Uh the Palestinians were on very

2054
02:29:02,959 --> 02:29:09,319
good terms with. And you know the fact that the

2055
02:29:09,440 --> 02:29:16,479
fact that these are effort fruits and in particular horse Tomolars. Again,

2056
02:29:16,639 --> 02:29:19,879
like I said, he was, he wasn't is basically a

2057
02:29:19,920 --> 02:29:30,920
political animal, you know, degenerated, enduring channels and communication, you know,

2058
02:29:31,000 --> 02:29:35,120
And like I said, I I I write a lot

2059
02:29:35,200 --> 02:29:42,520
about Johann Vondeliers as well as UH some other third

2060
02:29:42,639 --> 02:29:46,280
right personages like quite literally during the Cold War, like

2061
02:29:46,479 --> 02:29:50,399
joined the Arab camp. You know, von Leers himself. He

2062
02:29:50,959 --> 02:29:54,239
he converted to his Lamb to the name Omar mean

2063
02:29:55,079 --> 02:30:01,760
certing the court of Nasser. You know, he viewed is

2064
02:30:01,920 --> 02:30:06,120
lam as as the dialectrical antithesis of Judaism. And thus

2065
02:30:07,600 --> 02:30:16,200
you know, the perfect UH sort of principal like rallying

2066
02:30:16,280 --> 02:30:19,840
principle in order to defeat, in order to defeat what

2067
02:30:20,000 --> 02:30:25,959
he perceived as a then triumphant Jewish dialectic. UH in

2068
02:30:26,079 --> 02:30:30,319
the zeitgeist. Okay, I'm not saying that like Mahler was,

2069
02:30:32,399 --> 02:30:34,520
you know it was was was thinking these sorts of

2070
02:30:34,600 --> 02:30:41,639
things like von Leers was. But instinctively, I I think

2071
02:30:41,760 --> 02:30:47,559
that he very much was within that, you know, like

2072
02:30:47,719 --> 02:30:52,959
engaged in that paradigm psychologically such as it was to

2073
02:30:53,360 --> 02:30:57,799
the UH really kind of the the zenith of UH,

2074
02:30:58,600 --> 02:31:04,520
of the first UH. The first iteration of the RAF

2075
02:31:04,760 --> 02:31:10,760
was the hydro I think of Lufthansa flight. This was

2076
02:31:10,879 --> 02:31:15,959
after most of the key personages of the roote army fraction,

2077
02:31:16,520 --> 02:31:19,360
the bottom of minehunt iteration of it, I did have

2078
02:31:19,440 --> 02:31:25,479
been killed or captured, you know, arrested. The UH, the

2079
02:31:25,559 --> 02:31:29,799
security elements of the of the Buddhist Republic had gotten

2080
02:31:29,840 --> 02:31:39,520
a tremendous boone owing to you know, the the the

2081
02:31:39,680 --> 02:31:44,399
these terrorist activities that were under way, and specifically, you know,

2082
02:31:44,559 --> 02:31:47,600
the the Munich situation in nineteen seventy two or the

2083
02:31:47,879 --> 02:31:55,360
the Israeli athletes were were slaughtered. But lufthans A flight

2084
02:31:57,239 --> 02:32:01,920
on October thirteenth, seventy seven and the summer of seventy

2085
02:32:02,040 --> 02:32:09,399
seven colloquially became known as the German Autumn owing to

2086
02:32:09,559 --> 02:32:12,760
the an epidemic of political of violence, and this is

2087
02:32:12,840 --> 02:32:14,360
considered to be you know, kind of one of the

2088
02:32:14,399 --> 02:32:20,479
most what one of the one of the most brazen

2089
02:32:20,840 --> 02:32:28,559
instances of it. For operators from the Popular Front Fliberation

2090
02:32:28,680 --> 02:32:35,879
at Palestine hijacked liftions of Flight one eighty one, and

2091
02:32:37,399 --> 02:32:42,520
their specific objective was to secure the release of the

2092
02:32:42,600 --> 02:32:49,319
imprisoned Ruth Army faction. Okay, and again I this is

2093
02:32:49,399 --> 02:32:52,719
what I was getting at when I was talking about

2094
02:32:53,840 --> 02:32:57,840
Horse to Maler and what I believe is is, you know,

2095
02:33:00,120 --> 02:33:06,360
rather profound ability to index with other revolutionary elements. And

2096
02:33:06,479 --> 02:33:09,559
like we talked about before, the Popular Front Filiberation of

2097
02:33:09,639 --> 02:33:14,799
Palestine kind of their whole, part of their whole grand

2098
02:33:14,840 --> 02:33:18,680
strategy was to demonstrate an ability to project power globally,

2099
02:33:19,399 --> 02:33:24,319
you know. In this this endured until the end of

2100
02:33:24,360 --> 02:33:29,360
the Cold War. Interestingly, the Popular Front Liberation of Palestine

2101
02:33:29,399 --> 02:33:34,280
still exists. I don't know to what degree they still

2102
02:33:34,319 --> 02:33:38,200
abide a Marxist Leninist program, but they fought on the

2103
02:33:38,399 --> 02:33:47,639
side of Asad against Isis, and I believe that they're

2104
02:33:47,760 --> 02:33:55,719
active in the Yemen Civil War, and they there's a

2105
02:33:55,799 --> 02:33:59,559
militia also under arms in Yemen. They called itself, Uh

2106
02:34:00,680 --> 02:34:05,280
you know, something like the the UH like the Armed

2107
02:34:05,319 --> 02:34:08,799
Grouping of South Yemen or something like that. Now South

2108
02:34:08,920 --> 02:34:13,600
Yemen was, of course, uh, it was a Soviet client state.

2109
02:34:13,680 --> 02:34:16,520
It no longer exists, but it was the only it

2110
02:34:16,600 --> 02:34:19,079
was the only Marxist Leninist Arab state. So it was

2111
02:34:19,159 --> 02:34:21,479
kind of like a feather in the cap of Warsaw pact.

2112
02:34:21,600 --> 02:34:25,600
But I speculate very strongly that the sudden emergence of

2113
02:34:25,680 --> 02:34:28,639
these guys like fight riding under the banner of South

2114
02:34:28,760 --> 02:34:32,959
Yemen and clicking up with the PFLP like that's they

2115
02:34:33,040 --> 02:34:35,079
they they were very much into a Russian patronage. I

2116
02:34:35,159 --> 02:34:37,639
think that should be clear. I find that kind of fascinating.

2117
02:34:38,799 --> 02:34:45,959
But be as it may. The UH there's this UH,

2118
02:34:46,639 --> 02:34:56,239
there's this spectacular UH raid the free the hostages on

2119
02:34:56,440 --> 02:35:01,559
flight Loot on the flight one one they played it

2120
02:35:01,639 --> 02:35:08,959
ultimately landed in Mogadishu, Somalia, and the Somali Army they uh,

2121
02:35:10,000 --> 02:35:15,879
they provided a distraction and they detonated this ordinance on

2122
02:35:16,000 --> 02:35:18,680
the runway in front of the nose of the aircraft.

2123
02:35:20,399 --> 02:35:23,360
So the hijackers rushed the front to see was underway.

2124
02:35:23,479 --> 02:35:28,040
And then these these commandos from GSG nine, you know

2125
02:35:28,120 --> 02:35:34,239
which is the like special Operations Element, and these British

2126
02:35:34,319 --> 02:35:37,680
sas guys, you know, they then uh they then blew

2127
02:35:37,760 --> 02:35:47,399
open the passenger door and uh and and and took

2128
02:35:47,479 --> 02:35:58,959
out the terrorists. But it uh pretty much immediately after uh,

2129
02:36:01,719 --> 02:36:03,840
like after the like I was talking, like, you know,

2130
02:36:04,000 --> 02:36:13,959
days after the the incident, the UH, A bunch of

2131
02:36:14,000 --> 02:36:23,399
the imprisoned ARIF members UH died supposedly by suicide, including

2132
02:36:23,520 --> 02:36:33,760
Andrea's batter, Gudrun Insulin, John Carl Rasp and Ingrid Moeller

2133
02:36:34,559 --> 02:36:42,040
who UH supposedly attempted suicide but survived her injuries. But

2134
02:36:44,000 --> 02:36:46,879
the believe, the claim of Mahler as well as others,

2135
02:36:47,079 --> 02:36:50,840
was that you know, these these people were murdered by

2136
02:36:51,959 --> 02:36:56,360
by the guards and uh it was in the immediate

2137
02:36:56,479 --> 02:37:02,799
uh aftermath. Helmut Schmidt, who was the consular uh the

2138
02:37:02,840 --> 02:37:08,319
Buddhist Republic, he uh, he was hailed as a hero

2139
02:37:09,200 --> 02:37:12,079
in the Western world for you know, for his decision

2140
02:37:12,360 --> 02:37:17,360
to storm the air craft and refuse to negotiate, and

2141
02:37:17,600 --> 02:37:22,920
you know he uh and interesting in West Germany and

2142
02:37:23,000 --> 02:37:25,520
Somalia like became very tight after this, like going to

2143
02:37:25,600 --> 02:37:33,719
their operational integration militarily and obviously like Somalia, you know,

2144
02:37:33,879 --> 02:37:38,639
having a substantial Mauslim population. This was like good pr

2145
02:37:38,879 --> 02:37:43,840
but it it was believed again by people like course

2146
02:37:44,000 --> 02:37:47,799
Mahler and others like some some sympathetic to the Royal

2147
02:37:48,000 --> 02:37:55,399
Army Fractions, some not that you know that uh you

2148
02:37:55,479 --> 02:38:00,959
know Schmidt's uh, people like had had these Rotarmy Fraction

2149
02:38:01,079 --> 02:38:04,120
prisoners murdered as part of their Basically they're saying like,

2150
02:38:04,159 --> 02:38:08,399
look like you're not no, nobody's gonna nobody's gonna hijack

2151
02:38:08,440 --> 02:38:10,440
our planes and hurt our people like to try and

2152
02:38:10,559 --> 02:38:13,799
you know, spring motherfuckers like this, We're just gonna. We're

2153
02:38:13,840 --> 02:38:17,319
just not We're gonna, We're gonna kill them. I think

2154
02:38:17,399 --> 02:38:19,799
that's and I mean that's that kind of thing probably

2155
02:38:19,840 --> 02:38:22,680
seems like I'm thinkable today, not because the brutality or something,

2156
02:38:22,799 --> 02:38:28,079
but I mean within the Cold War, the context of it,

2157
02:38:28,200 --> 02:38:34,440
I mean, it was like certain things like certain things

2158
02:38:34,479 --> 02:38:39,159
are acceptable, but they just weren't discussed. You know. There

2159
02:38:39,200 --> 02:38:41,280
was kind of like a hotshots wink wink like aspect

2160
02:38:41,360 --> 02:38:45,159
to it. And I think that's I think that's I

2161
02:38:45,239 --> 02:38:49,079
think that's pretty clearly what happens also too, It's you

2162
02:38:49,159 --> 02:38:53,639
know the something that what changed to in the later

2163
02:38:54,239 --> 02:38:58,760
iterations of the butter of the of the Rode Armity Fraction.

2164
02:39:00,280 --> 02:39:05,639
First of all, they became very adept at a striking

2165
02:39:05,760 --> 02:39:09,600
you know, like prestige targets, you know, like businessman, industrialists,

2166
02:39:10,239 --> 02:39:13,200
bank presidents. You know, like I said, what was going

2167
02:39:13,280 --> 02:39:14,840
to be kind of like the feather and the cap.

2168
02:39:16,000 --> 02:39:20,200
I'm not trying to be crashed by, you know, discussing

2169
02:39:21,000 --> 02:39:25,360
an attempt at homicide and flipping terms, but kind of

2170
02:39:25,440 --> 02:39:28,360
like their big their big coup was going to be,

2171
02:39:28,760 --> 02:39:33,840
you know, blowing up General l Hague when he was

2172
02:39:33,879 --> 02:39:41,600
Supreme Commander of NATO. It's like their operational focus very

2173
02:39:41,719 --> 02:39:48,760
much shifted towards you know, kind of proceeding as the

2174
02:39:48,920 --> 02:39:53,040
vanguard of an occupied country. And that was very different

2175
02:39:53,120 --> 02:39:57,079
than what the bottom Minhaw Federation of the Rose Army

2176
02:39:57,159 --> 02:39:58,079
Fraction was doing.

2177
02:39:59,079 --> 02:39:59,239
Speaker 3: You know.

2178
02:40:00,040 --> 02:40:04,600
Speaker 2: I mean, not only was the initial organization kind of

2179
02:40:04,639 --> 02:40:08,440
scattered shot in their priorities, but they were very much

2180
02:40:08,440 --> 02:40:14,040
trying to index with you know, kind of like the

2181
02:40:14,120 --> 02:40:19,319
global like proletarian revolutionary liberation movement, you know, and like

2182
02:40:19,440 --> 02:40:24,959
I said, I horse de Mahler and outsized impact on

2183
02:40:26,239 --> 02:40:33,120
their strategic operational priorities and him kind of viewing Israel

2184
02:40:33,280 --> 02:40:38,520
as like the primary adversary of a revolutionary German armed

2185
02:40:38,600 --> 02:40:45,319
grouping made perfect sense. But the fact that later, you know,

2186
02:40:46,719 --> 02:40:49,719
the legacy what was what? What was the self an

2187
02:40:49,799 --> 02:40:55,079
unfired like legacy organizations or success organizations, you know, their

2188
02:40:55,159 --> 02:41:02,159
targets became you know, the economic the high financial economic infrastructure,

2189
02:41:02,159 --> 02:41:06,239
the bud Is Republic and NATO, you know, I mean,

2190
02:41:06,319 --> 02:41:09,840
and that's very I think that very much indexes with

2191
02:41:09,920 --> 02:41:15,319
an understanding of them being you know, a DDR client

2192
02:41:15,600 --> 02:41:20,440
regime like the Chazi's notion always was. And this was

2193
02:41:20,559 --> 02:41:26,639
proper if your ambition is to discredit the bundes Republic

2194
02:41:27,879 --> 02:41:36,120
was two you know, first last, and always portray the

2195
02:41:36,239 --> 02:41:43,559
bond regime as this this militaristic like American client regime

2196
02:41:44,479 --> 02:41:52,239
that had no real legitimacy and had no real support

2197
02:41:52,280 --> 02:41:56,879
from the body politic, you know, and that in and

2198
02:41:57,000 --> 02:42:04,479
of it, like whose existence itself preserved, you know, an

2199
02:42:04,559 --> 02:42:10,120
elevated state of arousal for lack of a better term,

2200
02:42:11,559 --> 02:42:15,959
of arn't forces in theater because its very existence was

2201
02:42:16,120 --> 02:42:21,639
dangerously provocative, you know. And don't get me wrong, like

2202
02:42:21,760 --> 02:42:26,159
Warsaw Pack definitely was at war with Israel. They were

2203
02:42:26,239 --> 02:42:33,079
literally actively at war with Israel. But you know a

2204
02:42:33,440 --> 02:42:42,760
H a West German UH non state actor element that

2205
02:42:42,879 --> 02:42:49,799
warsaw packed UH was aiding and at betting and you know,

2206
02:42:50,000 --> 02:42:57,200
providing operational priorities to the way, Like it makes perfect

2207
02:42:57,280 --> 02:42:59,959
sense that you know there their their targets would be

2208
02:43:00,040 --> 02:43:06,479
the NATO officers and and and and key personages and

2209
02:43:08,000 --> 02:43:18,600
the West German infrastructure. We can, UH, that's about all

2210
02:43:18,680 --> 02:43:22,159
I got on like the bottom Minehoff iteration. We can

2211
02:43:22,239 --> 02:43:29,280
get into the subsequent manifestations of this phenomenon if you

2212
02:43:29,360 --> 02:43:31,360
want to, or if you want to change direction and

2213
02:43:31,399 --> 02:43:33,319
getting a different topic, we can come back to it.

2214
02:43:33,559 --> 02:43:37,520
But it's it's like it's a huge topic, like the

2215
02:43:37,760 --> 02:43:41,520
UH I've got, Like i'mpowering my way through to refreshment recollection,

2216
02:43:43,760 --> 02:43:47,760
like these two volumes on like the entire history about

2217
02:43:47,840 --> 02:43:52,719
like half way through. But I don't I don't want

2218
02:43:52,719 --> 02:43:56,000
to spend too much time on one discrete topic. So

2219
02:43:56,120 --> 02:43:58,319
I will if you want to. But that's.

2220
02:44:00,840 --> 02:44:02,600
Speaker 1: Something we can come back to if we have a

2221
02:44:03,399 --> 02:44:06,079
one off episode we wanted to do. We're already doing

2222
02:44:06,159 --> 02:44:08,319
that one up. We're already planning a one off episode

2223
02:44:08,360 --> 02:44:12,079
coming up later this week and then I figure we

2224
02:44:12,239 --> 02:44:14,399
just probably after that, just started on a new topic.

2225
02:44:14,840 --> 02:44:16,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's great. And yeah, also as we get

2226
02:44:16,959 --> 02:44:22,040
into yeah, when it when it's when it's topically appropriate,

2227
02:44:24,719 --> 02:44:26,760
like to uh get into like able arch or ara

2228
02:44:26,879 --> 02:44:30,920
cold war. I'll come back to it. But I don't

2229
02:44:30,959 --> 02:44:32,840
want people to, uh, I mean people, people are free

2230
02:44:32,879 --> 02:44:35,600
to criticize me like whoever they want, but I mean,

2231
02:44:35,680 --> 02:44:38,079
like I I don't want people think, Okay, what the hell,

2232
02:44:38,159 --> 02:44:40,079
like you didn't you know you're only covering you know,

2233
02:44:40,159 --> 02:44:42,360
like basically like one third of the subject. It's like

2234
02:44:44,479 --> 02:44:46,479
and it's it's not because I'm like lacking or because

2235
02:44:46,479 --> 02:44:48,520
I can't realize that there's like a lot more to cover.

2236
02:44:49,200 --> 02:44:52,479
And also I think for at least for our purposes

2237
02:44:52,879 --> 02:44:55,360
or for my purposes rather like I said, I think

2238
02:44:55,360 --> 02:44:57,680
the percentage of horse and Molleler is very important. And

2239
02:45:01,760 --> 02:45:04,000
he's presented some kind of crank or some kind of

2240
02:45:04,040 --> 02:45:10,799
opportunists or uh, some people accuse him of being, you know,

2241
02:45:10,920 --> 02:45:15,440
some sort of intelligence agent who you know, simply it

2242
02:45:15,520 --> 02:45:20,200
took on the role of a turn coat because you know,

2243
02:45:20,360 --> 02:45:23,959
his uh, his agency's ops became you know, like neo

2244
02:45:24,120 --> 02:45:26,600
Nazis and lieu of communists if the what that's that's

2245
02:45:26,639 --> 02:45:31,319
complete nonsense. And I don't I don't see how old

2246
02:45:31,360 --> 02:45:32,719
man that is going to sing the man went to

2247
02:45:32,799 --> 02:45:38,600
prison for like five years, you know, for for a

2248
02:45:39,399 --> 02:45:43,639
quote unquote Holocaust denial. But yeah, I hope, uh, I

2249
02:45:43,719 --> 02:45:45,879
hope people this series is been getting a lot of

2250
02:45:45,920 --> 02:45:48,040
praise and I'm very like honored and humbled by that.

2251
02:45:48,319 --> 02:45:52,920
I I hope people, uh continue to get a lot

2252
02:45:53,000 --> 02:45:57,760
out of this series, but with with this episode. So

2253
02:45:57,959 --> 02:46:01,079
I'm very I'm very fortunate you're willing to invite me

2254
02:46:01,159 --> 02:46:04,959
on to cover these topics, man, and uh, I want to.

2255
02:46:04,959 --> 02:46:07,120
I want to thank everybody very much for their their

2256
02:46:07,239 --> 02:46:09,159
kind words and constructive feedback.

2257
02:46:10,559 --> 02:46:14,479
Speaker 3: Of course it doo quick plugs and we'll get out of.

2258
02:46:14,440 --> 02:46:17,280
Speaker 2: Here, yes sir, Oh yeah too, we got we We

2259
02:46:17,360 --> 02:46:19,479
also got to get back to our mystery science year

2260
02:46:19,520 --> 02:46:21,079
three thousand. Seriously.

2261
02:46:21,239 --> 02:46:22,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll do We'll do that next week.

2262
02:46:23,000 --> 02:46:25,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Man. The best place to find like the

2263
02:46:26,040 --> 02:46:31,600
kind of the one stop uh site for like all

2264
02:46:31,680 --> 02:46:34,520
my content is my it's just my website. It's Thomas

2265
02:46:34,600 --> 02:46:37,760
seven seven seven dot com number seven h M A

2266
02:46:37,879 --> 02:46:40,200
S seven seven seven dot com. You find everything there.

2267
02:46:42,520 --> 02:46:45,840
My sub stick that's where I do long form stuff.

2268
02:46:45,879 --> 02:46:49,799
That's where the podcast is at. It's real Thomas seven

2269
02:46:49,920 --> 02:46:53,120
seven seven dot subsec dot com. You can find me

2270
02:46:53,200 --> 02:47:00,319
on x formally Twitter at real Capital r E L

2271
02:47:02,120 --> 02:47:08,799
underscore number seven ho An seven seven seven. I'm on

2272
02:47:09,040 --> 02:47:14,280
a t gram. It's a mind Phaser, is my t gram.

2273
02:47:14,360 --> 02:47:16,840
It's named after the pod. But if you just if

2274
02:47:16,840 --> 02:47:19,159
you just look for Thomas seven seven seven and t gram,

2275
02:47:19,239 --> 02:47:23,440
like you'll find it. I'm not. I'm I'm active on

2276
02:47:23,479 --> 02:47:25,520
there every couple of days. I'm not super active because

2277
02:47:25,520 --> 02:47:27,559
I'm not a big fan of t gram. Back in

2278
02:47:27,639 --> 02:47:30,159
the days when I literally could not like get a

2279
02:47:30,200 --> 02:47:33,319
social media account without a big nuke in minutes, I

2280
02:47:33,399 --> 02:47:38,360
relied heavily on it. But I am on there and

2281
02:47:38,479 --> 02:47:41,399
yeah that's I'm on Instagram, and yeah, seeking you find

2282
02:47:42,840 --> 02:47:44,639
Speaker 3: All right, Thomas, So the next time, thank you,