WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.320 --> 00:00:12.839 Welcome to another episode of The Oath and the Office Podcast. 2 00:00:12.919 --> 00:00:15.880 I'm John Fiegel, sang Happy Christmas and Happy Hanakhod, happy 3 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:18.640 everything to hold y'all. So great to have y'all with us. 4 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:20.839 And it's so great as always to welcome the star 5 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:25.519 of our show. Professor Corey Bretschneider is a constitutional law scholar, 6 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:28.800 a political philosopher, the author of the Oath and the 7 00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:31.039 Office and the Presidents and the People, and he was 8 00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:33.520 kicked out of both Kiss and the Wu Tang Clan 9 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:37.759 for being too hardcore. The Professor focuses on what democracy 10 00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:40.960 requires of those in power and what happens when leaders 11 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:44.479 actively violate those requirements. Corey, it's so good to see you. 12 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:46.039 Happy holidays to you and your family. 13 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:47.240 Thank you, John. 14 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:49.759 Happy holidays to you and your family, and of course 15 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:52.799 to all the listeners. And what an intro, you know, 16 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:55.719 was an aspiring I loved old school rap as a 17 00:00:55.799 --> 00:00:58.759 kid and still do. And so if only all that 18 00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:03.000 was true, I mean, that's the best intro yet just 19 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:05.719 the end part, you know, far from it. 20 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:08.719 Well, Like I always like to say, hyperbole is worse 21 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:11.920 than Nazis. Okay, so we have a lot we have 22 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:17.519 to cover on today's episode special Holiday Malfeesi's edition between 23 00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:21.000 Corporate Power and the sixty Minutes Crisis. Of course, the 24 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:25.159 Epstein files an inherent contempt, which I thought was just 25 00:01:25.400 --> 00:01:28.439 how my wife's family viewed me. And we have to 26 00:01:28.519 --> 00:01:33.040 talk a bit about dishonesty and how used we've all 27 00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:38.400 become to disinformation because this was the week where we 28 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:41.799 found out who was the perpetrator of the Brown University shooting. 29 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:45.120 Of course, we lost Ella Cook, nineteen years old, a 30 00:01:45.159 --> 00:01:48.120 sophomore from Mountain Brook, Alabama. She was the vice president 31 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:51.319 of the Brown College Republicans and a musician. Muhammad Aziz 32 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.560 Imerzakov was eighteen. He was a freshman from Virginia. He 33 00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:58.599 was an Uzbek American, an aspiring neurosurgeon. Their deaths were 34 00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:03.439 completely senseless, and their deaths were manipulated, as seems to 35 00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:06.680 be the norm now by actors looking to place blame 36 00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:10.639 and stereotype large groups of people. Professor, let's start with 37 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:13.280 what we actually know. AUTH already say that the Brown 38 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:18.560 University shooter was Claudio Nevis Valente, Portuguese immigrant, acting alone, 39 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:22.759 later found dead by suicide. No one else was involved. 40 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:25.800 And as you know, while you and your fellow faculty 41 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:29.960 were grieving almost immediately. Right wing social media blamed a 42 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:34.319 transgender student and framed the murder as ideological. And I'd 43 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:36.759 like to begin, Professor by just first asking how you 44 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:41.120 and your colleagues are and what does this reflex tell 45 00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:46.240 us about how disinformation is functioning as usual after mass 46 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:50.000 violence in the Trump era, Because I don't think anyone 47 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:52.840 was surprised that transgender students were blamed. I don't think 48 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:54.719 anyone was surprised that that was a lie. 49 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:57.800 Yeah, I think in some ways it wasn't surprising, but 50 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:00.439 the whole tragedy, you know, when it had happens to 51 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:02.479 you and your community, it just. 52 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:03.479 Hits in a different way. 53 00:03:03.599 --> 00:03:06.240 And we talked about this last week as the investigation 54 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:09.199 was ongoing, and part of what was happening then was 55 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:13.639 really an immense fear on campus from students, from faculty, 56 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:16.520 And so there is some relief now that we know 57 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:20.759 who did this and we know that it was just 58 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:25.479 a hard to comprehend, clearly very disturbed individual who had 59 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:29.719 very little contact with the university ever. In fact, two 60 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:31.840 thousand and one was the last time that he was 61 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:34.599 involved with the university. He was a graduate student, in physics, 62 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:38.120 and he's the same person, I should say too, who 63 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:42.280 murdered the MIT professor, who he knew from Portugal where 64 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:47.120 he was from Portuguese national And I suppose they were rivals, 65 00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:51.639 and one of the two thrived in physics, the MIT professor, 66 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:54.840 and the other out of resentment, took his life. And 67 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:59.120 then the Brown story is very hard to comprehend. He 68 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:02.560 returned to the building and I guess the room that 69 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:06.080 he was often in where he thought. I think he 70 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:09.639 was murdering physics students. Now that of course is completely senseless, 71 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:13.080 but they weren't physics students. Even they were students in 72 00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:16.759 a review session in economics and in the hallway. So 73 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:20.519 it is just an immense tragedy. There is some relief 74 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:24.639 that we caught this person. The two students who were murdered, 75 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:30.279 horrific violence, horrific senseless young death. As all my colleagues 76 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:32.680 and as the entire Brown community, we grieve for them 77 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:34.360 and for their families and their friends. 78 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:36.720 Many of my colleagues knew them. 79 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:41.000 And it's been an enormous tragedy. And then to go 80 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:43.319 to your question in the midst of all of this, 81 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:48.160 to watch the internet blame transgender student who had absolutely 82 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:50.279 nothing to do with this because they claimed that they 83 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:53.600 had the same body type as the person that was 84 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:57.079 being looked for, but just jumping to conclusions as if 85 00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:59.879 there was some conclusive evidence about this, and then another 86 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:04.000 right wing conspiracy that this was somehow an ideological attack 87 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:07.680 because the female student who was murdered was a member 88 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:10.120 of the Young Republicans, And you know, neither of those 89 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:12.399 are based in any fact, and yet the Internet went 90 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:15.160 crazy with them. So we were seeing, you know, the 91 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:20.199 connection between the horrible storm of misinformation of really anti 92 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:24.160 democratic politics, not anti democratic party, but against democracy that 93 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:27.439 we're seeing online. You know, the misinformation with it and 94 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:29.920 the kind of views that go with it, lack of 95 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:35.240 reason just turned into a weapon against the brown community 96 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:37.319 community I've been part of for twenty four years. 97 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:39.680 So it was just tragedy upon tragedy. 98 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:42.560 And now there is a new victim, who's this transgender 99 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:45.839 student who was targeted for absolutely no reason and without 100 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:46.680 any evidence. 101 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:51.480 I know that slowing down and establishing facts before assigning 102 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:55.439 blame is woke, but Professor, this podcast, I guess if 103 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:57.800 we have a theme, it's about something that's present in 104 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:03.240 your work. Democratic norms under pressure. I mean, how dangerous 105 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:07.600 do you find it when entire communities, say transgender people, 106 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:14.879 say immigrants, say Muslims, become default suspects every time violence occurs. 107 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:15.839 Oh. 108 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:18.000 I mean, that's the unfortunate reality of the world in 109 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:20.720 which we're in, that there is a narrative of, you know, 110 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:23.160 who's to blame for all of our problems that's not 111 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:24.120 based in facts. 112 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:25.560 We talked last week. 113 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:27.879 About the real problem, which I think is gun regulation 114 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:30.480 and the lack of gun regulation in the United States. 115 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:34.519 We compared New Zealand and Australia and the massive progress 116 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:37.399 that they made when it came to mass shootings and 117 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:39.519 mass killings compared to the United States. 118 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:40.920 That's a real issue. 119 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:44.360 But instead, because the conservatives of the Republican Party the 120 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:47.079 President don't want to do anything about that real issue, 121 00:06:47.319 --> 00:06:51.439 they've got to manufacture fake issues. So blaming transgender people 122 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:56.720 with again zero evidence, can't say that enough. Blaming non citizens, 123 00:06:56.920 --> 00:07:01.360 permanent residents, green card holders, students from ad that's the 124 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:04.680 playbook that we're watching unfold. And you know, here's where 125 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:08.519 the personal tragedy intersects with the tragedy of our politics. 126 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:13.399 Yeah, Corey, I mean, let me ask you, is this 127 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.279 less about truth and more about permission, like just the 128 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:20.959 permission structure to punish groups the right already hates that 129 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:22.680 already likes to target. 130 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:26.240 Yeah, it's they clearly have an agenda, which is the 131 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:29.759 shutdown of immigration into the United States. The belief in 132 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:32.800 this phrase, horrible phrase that I keep hearing of heritage 133 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:36.839 American referring essentially to white Americans who have been in 134 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:40.120 this country for generations as the true Americans. Nothing could 135 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:43.199 be further I should say, from the American idea, which 136 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:46.680 is essentially that America is based on principles of freedom, 137 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:50.800 of a commitment to equality. Those are the ideals of 138 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:55.120 American democracy. And you know, this is a nation based 139 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:59.240 on ideas of freedom, not ideas of blood. And yet 140 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:02.959 this of heritage Americans is trying to change that. And 141 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:07.399 so any time that this can unleash itself with facts 142 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:09.959 in the news, it doesn't matter how tangential, they'll do it. 143 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:14.319 And this anti immigrant narrative that's being attached to this 144 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:18.639 tragedy is probably inevitable, but horrific to see, especially when 145 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:19.839 it's about your own community. 146 00:08:19.879 --> 00:08:23.360 Again, it's strange how Yeah, our friends on the right 147 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:26.399 always have to believe in what's that word again, supremacy 148 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:32.039 to other roots right, Christian supremacists, American supremacists, and Jesus's 149 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:34.039 whole mission was about humility. It's a good thing they 150 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:37.720 don't read the Jesus parts. But you know, Donald Trump's 151 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:41.519 response was not targeted law enforcement. And this is why 152 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:44.320 I really wanted to open with this story today as 153 00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:47.879 opposed to sexier stuff like Bari Weiss burning down CBS News. 154 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:53.919 But Donald Trump is turning to collective punishment, suspending the 155 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:58.399 diversity visa lottery, imposing more immigration restrictions that will affect 156 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:00.919 and hurt millions. No, this is what I wanted to 157 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:02.519 ask you about, because this is what the bad guys 158 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:06.840 always do throughout history. Professor, From a constitutional standpoint, how 159 00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:11.840 does collective punishment of entire groups fit into authoritarian history? 160 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:14.960 Well, the American ideal is supposed to be that we 161 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:20.759 don't blame individuals for the supposed characteristics of other individuals. 162 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:21.480 And the Biblical ideal too. 163 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:23.639 And what we're. 164 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:27.480 Seeing, I think increasingly, is not only the stereotyping and 165 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:31.559 grouping of people, but the desire to punish certain individuals 166 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:35.399 as responsible for the ls of society. It is the 167 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:40.200 worst example of prejudice and stereotyping coming together to fail 168 00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:42.879 to deal with our real problems. And you know, I 169 00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:47.559 can't help but think about this documentary. There's an amazing 170 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:51.600 thinker about the history of Nazi Germany named Professor Hett 171 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:53.039 and I'm. 172 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:53.519 Going to have him. 173 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:55.440 We're going to have him on the podcast in the 174 00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:58.720 new year. And if you watch on Netflix, the documentary 175 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:02.279 based largely on his work Hitler and the Nazis. Things 176 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:05.720 don't start off with the Holocaust that comes later in 177 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:09.320 the war. What starts off is this idea of collective punishment, 178 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.080 of the punishment of the Germans for the Reichstag fire, 179 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:15.480 which by the way, might have been set by Hitler himself, 180 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:18.919 but the idea that you'll blame collectively an entire group 181 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:22.559 for an individual action that the group, of course can't 182 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:26.399 be responsible for. Now, we're not seeing the Holocaust or 183 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:29.480 any of the cars that we saw later in Germany. 184 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:32.039 But what we are seeing are the foundations for that 185 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:35.840 way of thinking, blaming groups, for instance, for the actions 186 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:40.279 of individuals. This Portuguese professor was in a unique situation. 187 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:41.840 He was clearly disturbed person. 188 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:44.440 He had been a graduate student for just a few months, 189 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:47.200 evidently a promising one who it didn't work out for. 190 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:50.399 That's not an example of somebody that you can then 191 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:54.799 generalize into Green card holders or permanent residents generally. And 192 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:57.159 the idea that they're trying to do that and really 193 00:10:57.159 --> 00:10:59.279 to blame people have absolutely nothing to do with this 194 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:02.840 tragedy is horrible. And yet that's what they're trying to 195 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:05.240 do with new immigration restrictions. 196 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:07.559 And historically collective punishment. I mean, you said they've used 197 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:10.080 it against Jews, They've used it against indigenous folks, They've 198 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:13.639 used it against political dissidence, against enslaved Africans. We've seen 199 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:16.519 it in our lifetimes used against Muslims in many ugly 200 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:20.080 ways in this country. I mean, Trump's logic seems to 201 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:23.039 collapse under the slightest bit of scrutiny. Professor Lee Harvey 202 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:27.840 Oswald was American, Timothy McVeigh was American. No one said, hey, 203 00:11:27.879 --> 00:11:30.759 we should go after you know, white veterans, or go 204 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:34.559 after the areas they come from. Selective punishment seems to 205 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:39.240 be one of the clearest tells of radicalized authoritarianism. Is 206 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:39.960 that fair to say? 207 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:42.080 I think that's exactly right, and if you think of 208 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:45.600 the opposite of collective punishment, it's the entitlement in our Constitution, 209 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:48.320 the Fifth Amendment and the fourteenth Amendment to do process. 210 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.399 That's a right of individuals to be accused of crimes, 211 00:11:51.399 --> 00:11:54.080 to face legal proceedings, to know what the charges are 212 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:57.399 against them, to face courts of law on an individual 213 00:11:57.559 --> 00:12:00.879 not a collective basis. There is no consistent and group 214 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:04.879 punishment that's consistent with the due process clauses of our Constitution. 215 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:08.399 And yet increasingly, you know, you're seeing the eroding of 216 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:11.840 those values in favor of values of collective punishment. You 217 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:13.679 don't have to look very far. And I know we'll 218 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:16.399 talk about sixty minutes later, which is directly on point, 219 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:21.000 but to the handling of the supposed enem nation of Venezuela, 220 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:24.080 the handling of individuals who are often fleeing by the 221 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:28.519 way the dictatorship in Venezuela. Those people were denied due 222 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:32.559 process by this administration under the claim that the seventeen 223 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:36.480 ninety eight Alien Enemies Act revokes due process, even though 224 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:39.840 the Constitution says the opposite. That's what this administration is saying. 225 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:43.320 That fits into the idea of group punishment. The punishment 226 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:47.360 of an enemy nation, regardless of whether any individual, and 227 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:49.720 many of those who were shipped in particular to the 228 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:52.159 Gulag and Al Salvador that we're going to talk about, 229 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:54.840 were not guilty of any crime. And in fact, the 230 00:12:54.919 --> 00:12:59.480 more investigation, including the sixty minutes show shows that a 231 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:02.840 huge u percentage of those who were removed committed no 232 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:04.960 violent crime or no crime at all. 233 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:07.639 And let me point out study after a study after 234 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:12.080 a study shows that immigrants, both legal and undocumented, are 235 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:16.159 far less likely to commit violent crime than native born Americans. 236 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:17.879 So I'm going to repeat that, Corey, so people can 237 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:21.120 hear it in the back. Illegal immigrants and legal immigrants 238 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:25.679 both commit crimes at lower rates than natural born American citizens. 239 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:29.080 The reason fear of deportation, which kind of makes me 240 00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:31.120 think we could, you know, put some fear into the 241 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:33.759 hearts of homegrown criminals if we began shipping them off 242 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:35.720 like Donald Trump does all over the place, But he 243 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:38.679 doesn't want to do that to Americans. And we see 244 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:44.080 authoritarian movements persist in pushing these narratives that directly contradict 245 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:47.519 empirical reality because it serves them politically. It's not helping 246 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:51.440 the economy. I mean Trump's own family emigrated from Europe, Professor, 247 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:53.720 So let me just put a button on this by 248 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:58.960 asking you, I mean, how central is racial hierarchy rather 249 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:03.080 than law, or to the way this administration is defining 250 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:06.679 deserving immigrants versus dangerous immigrants. 251 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:09.759 They really are trying to rewrite the idea of America, 252 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:12.679 based on an idea of freedom, into one that looks 253 00:14:12.679 --> 00:14:15.559 like it's based in blood and heritage. Now, when you 254 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:17.879 look at the actual United States, including many of the 255 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:21.600 members of this administration, including JD. Vance, you know, what 256 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.039 are you talking about their families like my family don't 257 00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:28.080 fit some story that that you know, the eighteenth century 258 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.039 is the origin of that of their families. Stephen Miller 259 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.120 certainly does not have anything like that story. His story 260 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:36.799 of his family is much more like mine, as his 261 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:40.679 uncle has reminded us in a kind of heroic way. 262 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:44.039 And yet they keep having this fantasy that there's sort 263 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:47.559 of this blood that goes back to the founding of America. 264 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:51.799 Steve Bannon also's family doesn't fit that profile. And you know, 265 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:54.879 I guess they're doing it either out of some mix 266 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:59.799 of fantasy or of course political expediency, because othering people 267 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.720 making this tapping into the unfortunate narrative that there is 268 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:06.759 in the United States. The United States has two realities. 269 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:09.159 One is the aspirational one that I keep talking about. 270 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:11.519 America is an idea of freedom. And the other is, 271 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:14.679 of course, the deep history of racism and nativism that 272 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:18.519 runs throughout the United States. And that kind of awful 273 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:22.080 counter narrative is one that they're tapping into. And that 274 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:24.759 isn't what America is supposed to be, but it's what 275 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:26.360 they're trying to turn it into. 276 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:28.879 Well, let's take a very quick break, because when we 277 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:30.799 come back, I want to bring us to another moment 278 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:35.200 where law and power and selective transparency collide, and that 279 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:38.679 would be the Epstein Files and everybody's favorite new words 280 00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:42.120 to learn for the Christmas season, inherent contempt. We'll get 281 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:43.919 to CBS as well. In just a bit. We'll be 282 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:46.919 right back. This is the Oath in the Office. 283 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:50.440 Hey all playing Curshoner here. 284 00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:53.759 Friends, I hope you'll join me on my audio podcast, 285 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:57.879 Justice Matters. We talk about not only the legal issues 286 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:00.440 of the day, but we also talk about the need 287 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:05.200 to reform ethics in our government. Here's one example. The 288 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:08.639 Oath of office, you know the one I do solemnly 289 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:11.360 swear to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, 290 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:16.279 foreign and domestic. Let's add twenty two words to that 291 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:21.159 oath quote, and I will promptly report any instances of 292 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:25.840 crime and or corruption by government officials and employees of 293 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:32.360 which I've become aware. Friends, our democracy is worth fighting for. 294 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:40.000 Join us in this fight, because justice matters. Look for 295 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:44.840 justice matters wherever you ordinarily find your podcasts. 296 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:52.480 Welcome back to the oath in the office. I'm John Fiegel, saying, well, professor, 297 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:55.120 you know what I can say about Jeffrey Epstein is 298 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:59.120 I like it when dead rapists destroy the careers of 299 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:01.960 living rapists. So I plan on enjoying every step of 300 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:06.039 this once the files are finally released, as was required 301 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:10.119 by law. Last Friday, Congress voted to release the Epstein files, 302 00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:14.720 and every single page of grand jury testimony one hundred 303 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:20.480 and nineteen pages was redacted. I mean, just stunning, page 304 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:23.759 after page. I haven't seen that many blackouts since my 305 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:26.960 three way with Courtney Love and Liza Minelli. So in 306 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:30.799 constitutional terms, Corey, we expected this, and there's going to 307 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:32.680 be a lot going back and forth, a lot of 308 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:36.880 protest about it. I think that by continuing what could 309 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:39.720 be the greatest cover up in our lifetimes in presidential history, 310 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:42.400 it's just creating a festering wound in this White House 311 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.119 that will continue to make it bleed all over the midterms. 312 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:49.119 But in constitutional terms, I've wanted to ask you this 313 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:51.920 since I tried to read the report, Corey, when does 314 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:57.400 redaction stop being legitimate privacy protection and turn into obstruction? 315 00:17:57.799 --> 00:17:59.920 Where is the line? 316 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:02.839 A great series of questions, the stuff about lives in and Elli, 317 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:05.519 I'm pretty sure we're the only constitutional law podcast that 318 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:06.920 has a lead in like that. 319 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:09.559 I'm going to keep on pushing the limits of your tenures, sir. 320 00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:11.000 I'm just going to keep on seeing how far I 321 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:12.799 can take you into dangerous So thank you for that. 322 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:17.559 So going to the reaction part of the question, you know, look, 323 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.079 there is a purpose, of course of redaction, and they're 324 00:18:20.119 --> 00:18:22.599 not doing it. It's to protect the privacy of victims. 325 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:25.599 And there was one victim that cnnas reported today who 326 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:29.319 hasn't been identified until now, and the files are releasing 327 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:33.319 her name even though she's requested and had been given anonymity. 328 00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:36.480 So that's what reaction is supposed to be about now 329 00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:40.559 is reaction is supposed to protect the person who by. 330 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:42.319 The way the law not by the way. 331 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:44.359 That's the main point, that there's a law that was 332 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:47.440 past demanding the release. The administration is and doing this 333 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:49.359 out of the kindness of their own heart. 334 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:50.599 The whole purpose of it. 335 00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:54.440 The point of the legislation was to find out more 336 00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:59.200 about Epstein and his crimes. But equally important, maybe more important, 337 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:02.079 is whether or not the President was complicit or involved 338 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:03.160 in those crimes. 339 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:06.160 That's the reason this legislation was passed. So the fact that. 340 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:10.519 They're redacting so much of the material that would implicate Trump, 341 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:13.519 and they release some more today and there is information 342 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:16.759 including a letter from Epstein talking about the president and 343 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:22.359 his similar attraction to underage girls and potentially implicating him 344 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:25.480 in the crimes that are associated with Epstein. 345 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:28.839 That's the latest. But the idea that we'd be redacting. 346 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:32.240 The Department of Justice is trying to walk the line here, 347 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:35.240 which is to release as little as possible but not 348 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.599 find themselves in violation of the law. 349 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:39.400 And that's where we are now. 350 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:41.559 The good news, just to get to the headline here, 351 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.960 is that there is legislation here that demanded this release, 352 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:47.039 and so they can go to court, and in fact, 353 00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:51.599 Charles Schumer, leading the Senate Minority bringing case, and Thomas 354 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:54.680 Massey and others in the House are suing in court 355 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.799 to get the full files released in a way that 356 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.000 is not hiding what actually happened. 357 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:04.839 That's right. Then again, like Kilmar Abrigo Garcia, Pam Bondi's 358 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.680 doj in the White House had to be forced into 359 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:10.799 doing this. It took a nine to nothing Supreme Court 360 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:13.279 last summer to force Pam Bondi to comply with the law, 361 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.440 and now it took an Act of Congress passing a law, 362 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:20.640 and Trump is still not complying. Pam Bondi is still 363 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:24.079 not complying. And as the non academic on the show 364 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:26.359 who has no credibility to project, let me remind you 365 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.599 at the very best case scenario, friends and neighbors, Donald 366 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:32.000 Trump knew about the abuse of children for years and 367 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:33.960 didn't pick up the phone to call the cops. Okay, 368 00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:38.240 that's best case. Best case, magafins who are listening to 369 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:40.119 this to get angry and get your heart rate up, 370 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:44.079 because that counts cardio. Best case, donald Trump knew and 371 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:48.599 did nothing, but Corey the files that mentioned the president 372 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:53.519 were briefly posted then quietly removed the same night. From 373 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:57.920 a rule of law perspective, how alarming is that sequence, 374 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.400 or should I say, how comical? I can't decide whether 375 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:02.680 it's bitterly hilarious or deeply scary. 376 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:06.559 Well, you know, I think the million dollar question is 377 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:09.079 what does the law say? And the law's purpose, as 378 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:12.039 they said, was to demand release of the documents that 379 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:15.200 potentially implicate the president. And what they are doing clearly 380 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:18.960 is editing these files, redacting not with an interest of 381 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:21.680 protecting victims, but with the interest of doing the opposite 382 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:25.039 of what the law requires of protecting the president. You 383 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:28.039 mentioned the idea of inherent contempt. One real question now 384 00:21:28.119 --> 00:21:29.920 is what are we going to do, we the people 385 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:32.559 to try to demand that the law is followed and 386 00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:35.119 that the files are released. And Thomas Massey and others 387 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:38.359 have talked about this inherent contempt power. I think that 388 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:40.960 really is a red herring that the inherent contempt power, 389 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.559 which goes back hasn't been used by Congress since the 390 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:47.480 nineteen thirties. Talks about the idea that violating the will 391 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:50.200 of Congress can be a crime, and there actually was 392 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:53.279 at one point a jail in Congress that could be 393 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:54.400 used for this purpose. 394 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:55.839 I think they still have the jail, but it has 395 00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:56.279 all of this. 396 00:21:56.519 --> 00:21:58.920 Sergeant of Arms can lock them up if he was too. 397 00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:00.480 We've learned that many times. 398 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:03.240 Yeah, but it hasn't happened since the nineteen thirties and 399 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:05.039 I don't think it will. But the good news is 400 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:08.160 there is this legislation and so going to court and 401 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:11.519