WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.880 --> 00:00:12.599 Special Operations Cobert Sbiona The Team House with your hosts 2 00:00:13.439 --> 00:00:16.239 Jack Murphy and David Park. 3 00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:23.719 Hey, everyone, this is episode three hundred and fifty six 4 00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:26.359 of The Team House. I'm Jack here with Dave and 5 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:29.879 our guest on tonight's show is Charles Beaumont. You will 6 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:33.079 notice that his identity is concealed. Charles is not his 7 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:36.280 real name. That's not just because this gentleman is trying 8 00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:38.880 to be mysterious. It has to do with the laws, 9 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:43.679 the British laws around former and current intelligence officials. And 10 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:46.920 Charles is a former member of the Secret Intelligence Service 11 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:50.439 better known to the public as I six, served as 12 00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:54.520 a British intelligence officer, went through the War on Terra 13 00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:56.320 Era with time. 14 00:00:56.079 --> 00:00:57.679 Spent in Iraq and Afghanistan. 15 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:01.320 And now he does some consulting and you write spy 16 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:04.280 novels and we're really excited to have them on the show. 17 00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:06.640 This is the first time we've had a British intelligence 18 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:08.480 official or former official on the show. 19 00:01:08.920 --> 00:01:10.560 Thank you for joining us, Charles. 20 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:12.879 Well, thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. 21 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:17.840 Well, before we really jump into it, maybe like could 22 00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:19.519 I ask you to expand a little bit on that, 23 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:23.359 Like the the notion of you know, in the United States, 24 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:26.319 when a CIA officer comes out of the service and retires, 25 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:30.920 their cover gets rolled back oftentimes and they can appear publicly, 26 00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:33.359 as many have on this show. What are the what 27 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:36.400 are the British laws like these restrictions that really kind 28 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:38.519 of prevent you guys from being like public. 29 00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:42.319 Yeah, well, it's it's a it's a good question, because 30 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:45.400 you're right. You know, we're quite used to seeing former 31 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:48.480 CIA officers. You know, you see their faces, you hear 32 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:51.680 their names, you hear about some details of their careers, 33 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:55.680 maybe not operational details, but certainly a bit of detail. 34 00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:56.519 Yeah. 35 00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:58.799 In the UK, the rules are very different for people 36 00:01:58.879 --> 00:02:05.079 who served in intelligence agencies. The identities and therefore, you know, 37 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:09.639 checkable things such as your face remain things that are 38 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:14.680 not to be disclosed unless you are given specific authorization to. 39 00:02:14.560 --> 00:02:16.199 Do so, and that would be very unusual. 40 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:21.520 So the one exception, ordinarily is the chief, which is 41 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:24.199 what we call our director, that the head of the 42 00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:28.719 secret Intelligence Service, which is a publicly named and identified person, 43 00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:31.479 although not much else is known about them. 44 00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:36.159 Another interesting thing that I just learned personally last week 45 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:39.800 was that the term I six is really only used 46 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:42.840 in the movies and the spy novels that everyone refers 47 00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:45.639 to it either SIS or simply as Tame's House. 48 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:49.120 Is that correct, Yeah, well so M I six. Yes, 49 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:50.400 it's definitely. 50 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:56.719 That's a sort of an unofficial nickname for the for 51 00:02:56.759 --> 00:03:00.960 the service. And yeah, SIS is the formal name which 52 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:04.080 stands for the Secret Intelligence Service, and that was a 53 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:07.319 it's an organization that was founded if I'm not mistaken 54 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.599 in nineteen oh twelve, I think as nineteen twelve, so 55 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:12.280 you know, a good time ago. 56 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:14.719 And it is it is. 57 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:20.120 This six name is a nickname that appeared I believe 58 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:22.879 during World War Two when there were different the M 59 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:24.400 and the I military intelligence. 60 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:27.039 There were different sort of bureaus of military intelligence. 61 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:31.319 But it's kind of ironic because six is a civilian organization, 62 00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:34.159 just of course as the CIA is, but I would 63 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:36.080 argue it's kind of more civilians. 64 00:03:36.599 --> 00:03:40.439 It has a less obvious connection with the military world. 65 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:44.400 So let's talk a little bit about you. 66 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:47.360 You tell us a little bit about yourself, about how 67 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:49.400 you grew up and how that sort of like took 68 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:51.960 you towards service with the government. 69 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:54.360 Yeah, well, thank you. 70 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:57.840 I mean in a way that my childhood sort of 71 00:03:58.000 --> 00:03:59.800 wouldn't have taken me there at all. I grew up 72 00:03:59.879 --> 00:04:03.080 in a in a kind of nice middle class environment 73 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:06.240 in the south of England, which for those familiar with England, 74 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:11.439 that's kind of my accent. I didn't have any family 75 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:14.960 connections to people really in well, certainly in this line 76 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:16.839 of work. But actually I would say in the more 77 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:19.040 general if we were going to talk about kind of 78 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:22.839 military service or or public service, foreign service, that kind 79 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:25.319 of thing, I don't I didn't really have people I 80 00:04:25.399 --> 00:04:31.279 knew well from that that world. But I was somebody 81 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:33.199 as a child, I was very curious about the world, 82 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:34.759 you know. I read a lot of books about kind 83 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:36.319 of foreign adventures. 84 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:36.639 I was. 85 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:40.680 I was interested in explorers and people who would travel 86 00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:45.720 to remote places. And I guess, I guess for me 87 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:47.560 that there was this idea that there was a kind 88 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:51.480 of adventure that was there somehow that you know, somehow. 89 00:04:51.160 --> 00:04:53.680 My life might lead in that direction. 90 00:04:55.480 --> 00:05:01.000 But again that the way that the s I recruits 91 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:03.639 and the way that you join the organization when I. 92 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:05.839 Did, it's different now, but when I did, there was. 93 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:08.000 No way in you know, you you might be invited 94 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:11.360 to apply, but but it was really so it was 95 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:14.519 a series of unexpected you know, pathways that led me 96 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:16.959 to it really, but. 97 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:20.040 Before you get there, you know, what I read about 98 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:23.040 you was, you know, allegedly you studied history at Oxford. 99 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:28.240 Yes, that is that is true, and yeah, so Oxford 100 00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:30.319 is obviously, you know, is one of the kind of 101 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:36.120 ancient universities of the UK and it has it has 102 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:38.920 a big sort of hold on British culture, I would say, 103 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:41.480 So it's obviously, you know, it's a it's a it's 104 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:43.360 I guess it's like an Ivy League or something like that. 105 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:48.079 But it's got this real hold on books and movies 106 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:52.279 and TV shows and also spy stories. So there's this 107 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:56.879 sort of sense that in the British system that you 108 00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:01.560 kind of expect the British spies to have either have 109 00:06:01.639 --> 00:06:04.279 gone to Oxford or Cambridge University, and those are the 110 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:07.480 two kind of ancient universities of the country. Now, of course, 111 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:10.879 like all these things, it's a little bit cliched. You know, 112 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:13.519 clearly there are plenty of great people who've gone through 113 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:19.319 other schools and ended up in sis, but certainly Oxford 114 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:22.839 I think, I mean, for example, I think almost every 115 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:25.600 single Prime Minister of Britain, even to this date attended 116 00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:27.839 Oxford University, so it has this kind of weird hold 117 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:28.519 on the country. 118 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:33.560 And that's true also for the intelligence services. 119 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:37.560 And in the era that I was involved, these services 120 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:42.160 would recruit by having a network of what they call 121 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:48.040 talent spotters, who would identify young people, you know, undergraduates 122 00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:51.680 or whatever, who they thought might have capability, might show 123 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:54.519 some promise, and then those people would be invited to 124 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:59.439 apply through indirect means. And so, as I say you, 125 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:02.120 you would never have set out thinking that this is 126 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:03.839 what I want to do and how do I get there? 127 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:05.360 You know, it was something that happened to you. 128 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:07.959 Is that how you got recruited, because it sounds like 129 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:11.680 you could have been potentially, you know, in academic or 130 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:12.759 something of that nature. 131 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:15.759 Yeah, And in fact that was what kind of I 132 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:17.319 think Originally I thought I might do that. 133 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:17.680 I was. 134 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:20.439 I was a history major, as you've said, and I 135 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:22.720 was I was very interested in that, and I was 136 00:07:22.759 --> 00:07:25.879 thinking about staying on doing post grad work, maybe you know, 137 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:29.399 doctorate or postdoc all that stuff. And then I got 138 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:32.639 I got a strange letter one day, and I mean 139 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:35.720 it really it's it sounds like something from a book 140 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:36.279 or a movie. 141 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:37.720 But that's how it would work. 142 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:41.800 Then you'd get a letter from it didn't even say 143 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:43.839 it was from a government agency or anything. It would 144 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:47.600 just say that there are certain positions which exist something 145 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:51.439 like outside the normal framework of government recruitment or something. 146 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:54.199 And you were invited to and of course it's a 147 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:56.720 pre Internet era, no email or anything like that. You're 148 00:07:56.759 --> 00:08:01.600 invited to respond by writing and sending a resume. 149 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:05.720 And I at the time, I thought, well, maybe this 150 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:06.480 is just a joke. 151 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:08.839 You know, maybe some some mates of mine are just 152 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:12.319 trying to wind me up, and you know, and and 153 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:13.959 and send a kind of joke letter, because there was 154 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:16.439 always this rumor, there was a rumor on campus, you know, 155 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:18.639 oh there's one or two people in their recruiting. But 156 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:20.680 to be honest, I thought the rumor was a joke, 157 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:24.839 and until I got that letter, I didn't believe in it. 158 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:27.920 It's so the letter impors you to show up at 159 00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:28.920 like a recruitment pitch. 160 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:29.439 I take it. 161 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:33.639 But basically, yeah, it effectively, once you've received this letter, 162 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:37.120 you eventually you get invited to London to a to 163 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:41.440 a grand anonymous building in central London, quite near Buckingham Palace. 164 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:45.519 And again there's no marking there's no you know. 165 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:48.799 And and up until that point, I think a lot 166 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:51.120 of people think this whole thing is some kind of 167 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:55.039 elaborate hopes. And then you go through the door and 168 00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:57.080 you realize this is real, you know, And there was 169 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:01.200 a guard and it was it was not the main building. 170 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:04.240 So the main office of the Secret Intelligence Service, as 171 00:09:04.279 --> 00:09:06.440 is well known from the Bond movies, is a kind 172 00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:09.519 of quite iconic building on the River Thames in an 173 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:12.200 area called Vauxhall. This is in another part of the 174 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:15.200 of London, as I mentioned, near Buckham Palace, a very 175 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:19.960 kind of smart district of town. And until that moment, 176 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:23.519 you don't know what you're doing, and until the moment 177 00:09:23.799 --> 00:09:26.240 that you're you're sort of summoned into the meeting with 178 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:30.000 the recruiter. I mean, obviously at that point I knew 179 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:32.159 it was some kind of government entity, but I. 180 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:34.720 Really didn't have an understanding of what it was. 181 00:09:34.759 --> 00:09:37.279 And of course, as you said right at the outset, Jack, 182 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:40.159 you know, most people don't know what the Secret Intelligence 183 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:40.679 Service is. 184 00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:42.000 People have heard of m I six. 185 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:44.559 So even when the guy said to me, well, this 186 00:09:44.679 --> 00:09:47.159 is the Secret Intelligence Service, I wasn't one hundred percent 187 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:50.639 sure I knew what organization he was talking about. 188 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:54.639 And what was that like when you got into the meeting? 189 00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:58.080 I mean, how do they entice you to sign up? 190 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:01.279 Yeah, I mean, it's it. 191 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:05.200 It was a very memorable experience because in a way, 192 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:08.240 as as you'll be aware, and I'm sure a lot 193 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:09.799 of people watching this would be aware, you know that 194 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:13.279 we're talking about an agency which is a human intelligence agency, 195 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:17.399 So it's about recruiting and running sources. And people who 196 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:19.360 are good at that, of course, are people who have 197 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:24.519 a certain character, a certain persuasiveness, a perhaps a certain charm, 198 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:27.960 And in a way that's what you You know you're 199 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.200 being recruited in a way a bit like you're you're 200 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:33.200 going to be a source for the organization. Of course, 201 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:35.399 not you're going to be a full employee, but in 202 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:39.279 that sense that you're being drawn in and as a 203 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:41.639 mixture of flattery, you know that you're being told that 204 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:44.679 you're there because you've been identified to have special qualities 205 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:50.080 or have certain skills or attributes. But ultimately, I think, 206 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:53.840 as I mentioned, you know that for a young man 207 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:56.919 in his early twenties who had had a sort of 208 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:00.840 a first for adventure but not really any any particular 209 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:04.960 means of pursuing it. You know, I just thought, well, 210 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:07.000 this is this is incredible. You know, you'd be mad 211 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:08.600 not to do this job. You know, I could be 212 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:12.320 sitting in Oxford studying medieval history for ten years, or 213 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:16.840 I could be signing up for this, And for me, 214 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:18.240 it wasn't a hard sell at all. 215 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:23.840 And once you accept was the security checks a pretty 216 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:26.679 long drawn out process. I hear people who apply for 217 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:29.240 the CIA sometimes spend years in this sort of like 218 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:30.039 state of limbo. 219 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:33.759 Yeah, so I don't think it's quite as I've heard 220 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:35.919 those stories with the CIA, but yeah, literally you might 221 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:37.840 need to get another job while you're trying to do this. 222 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:41.480 It's a little bit quicker, But basically there's a there's 223 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:44.600 a series of recruitment. You know, that initial meeting is 224 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:47.480 that it is more of a kind of exploratory conversation. 225 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:50.039 There's a series of recruitment you can imagine, there's tests, 226 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:54.320 written tests and other tests and then eventually a yes, 227 00:11:54.720 --> 00:12:01.600 quite intrusive security process. One thing that the UK services 228 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:04.559 really don't do very often and certainly don't do with 229 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:09.720 prospective employees is they don't tend to use polygraphs, and 230 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:12.679 that's quite surprising, I think on the American side, because 231 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:14.679 I know that you guys do quite a lot of that. 232 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:20.480 So the security will be about people interviewing members of 233 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:23.279 your family or acquaintances of yours and that kind of thing. 234 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.559 And obviously, I mean, my own background is very boring. Basically, 235 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:31.320 I have, you know, my ancestors all seem to be English, 236 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:34.840 and there's not much to discover. I guess for people 237 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.320 who have a more diverse background than it might. 238 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:38.919 Take a bit longer to get through all that. 239 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:44.440 So you decided to take the plunge. Before we get 240 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:47.879 into like your training and what you went through, let's 241 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:51.399 talk a minute about the history of the Secret Intelligence Service, 242 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:54.799 which I believe you said goes back to nineteen two. 243 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:58.120 Yeah, I did. It's the beginning of the twentieth century. 244 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:03.720 And basically this it all begins at a time when 245 00:13:04.279 --> 00:13:09.919 you have the British Empire, of course, as a as 246 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:14.519 a huge global superpower, and it's its kind of main 247 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:20.080 global antagonist is is Germany, which of course was rapidly 248 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:24.600 catching up, building its navy, expanding its its military and 249 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:26.799 so on, and and you know, to give the very 250 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:29.000 crude history, and of course I'm sure most people are 251 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:30.840 well aware of this. You know, Germany kind of came 252 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:33.120 late to the imperial game, and there was that kind 253 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:38.000 of resentment and and and there was I think that 254 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:40.440 there was there was this idea in Britain that that 255 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:44.480 Germany was the newly united country of Germany, was was 256 00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:48.559 a threat to Britain's naval supremacy. And so the the 257 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:53.799 Secret Intelligence Service was established as as an organization whose 258 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:58.320 job was to spy overseas, to collect intelligence overseas, and 259 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:01.120 as I say, at the beginning very much focused on 260 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:03.240 the German threat. But because these are not the first 261 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:07.200 spies that have existed in our history. At the time 262 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:09.919 of the first Queen Elizabeth, so we're talking you know, 263 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:12.440 in the fifteen hundreds, there was there was a guy 264 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:16.159 called Francis Walsingham who ran what was a sophisticated intelligence 265 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:19.679 service and they were sending agents overseas into France and 266 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:23.279 so on at that time. So I guess that there's 267 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:25.840 a long history of spying in a country. 268 00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:27.519 You know, written has a lot of history. 269 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:30.919 But the formal organization was founded, I just checked his 270 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:34.000 nineteen oh nine is that first foundation. So just in 271 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:35.919 the run up to World War One and it's the 272 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:41.240 same organization to this day. Obviously changed massively over time, 273 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:43.240 but the same structure. 274 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:47.480 I guess Hey, guys, our show is sponsored by ghost 275 00:14:47.559 --> 00:14:51.360 bed Check them out please and make awesome mattresses, awesome pillows, 276 00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:55.919 awesome betting. Ghostpread provides high quality, is super comfortable, award 277 00:14:55.960 --> 00:14:59.679 winning mattresses crafted in the US and Canada. 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Gospad dot Com, 319 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:07.680 slash House for ten percent off made in the US, 320 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:10.920 meeting Canada. Shout out to our brothers in Canada. They rock. 321 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:13.680 Check them out. I love Ghostped, Thanks guys. 322 00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:19.200 And then let's talk a little bit about after you 323 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:22.000 put in your application get accepted. What is sort of 324 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:25.640 the training process like for a SIS officer. 325 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:29.880 Yeah, so, as I mentioned, you know, it's a human 326 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:35.079 organization analogous to the CIA, distinct from you know, the 327 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:38.400 NSA obviously, which which the equivalent in the UK would 328 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:40.680 be g c h Q for the on the sing 329 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:45.680 in side. As a human organization, the focus is on 330 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:52.119 certainly amongst the sort of intelligence officer case handlers. It's 331 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:59.240 about recruiting and running human intelligence sources. So there is 332 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:04.039 there is a training induction which which is all about 333 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:09.160 those skills. Now, over time, of course, these these training 334 00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:11.440 programs change change, you know. 335 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:12.640 Over history. 336 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:17.599 But but I think that the basic ideas about agent motivation, 337 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:21.000 about you know what, what are the factors that cause 338 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:24.599 people to be willing to be recruited to to spy 339 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:28.599 for another country, to betray their country for our country. 340 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:31.680 You know, these are these are things that are in 341 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:34.359 some sense is universal. You know, the idea of betrayal, 342 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.680 of espionage, of all these things, we can find it 343 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:39.000 in the Bible, you know, we can find it in 344 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:43.400 throughout human history. But but equally, you know, these are 345 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:46.799 any sort of complex operations to to to organize and 346 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:50.160 to run successfully. So there's a lot of emphasis on 347 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:54.119 on I guess, the dynamics of of agent relationships. And 348 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.480 when we talk about agents, I'm talking about sources obviously, 349 00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:56.839 I'm not. 350 00:18:56.799 --> 00:18:59.839 Talking about, uh, the the officers of the. 351 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:02.759 This there's a lot of a lot of a lot 352 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:05.480 of work clearly on security, and I guess if you're 353 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:09.400 coming new to that world, the the issues of security 354 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:12.319 and protective security, the idea of need to know of 355 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:15.559 security of operations, that's all very new if you're coming 356 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:19.200 fresh from you know, university or whatever. And then there's 357 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:23.160 there is a little bit in the training which is 358 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:26.160 about that kind of overlap with the world of special 359 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:31.480 operations of covert operations, technical operations, those kinds of things. 360 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:34.640 I would say in general that the balance of the 361 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:40.000 British services is much more heavily towards the human human 362 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:43.839 intelligence sources, whereas clearly you know, the CIA is a 363 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:47.559 much bigger organization. It has its covert action, it has 364 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:51.279 its paramilitary that sort of thing is it doesn't exist 365 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:54.079 really as an equivalent in the UK systems. 366 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.000 You guys have the says to do all that. Right, Well, 367 00:19:57.079 --> 00:19:57.680 that's right. 368 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:00.400 We've we've got we've got, as you know very well, 369 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.640 a very very well established special forces community and in 370 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:07.240 a way they fulfill that function and it hasn't been 371 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:09.960 seen necessary to sort of try and replicate it within 372 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:13.400 within the civilian intelligence agencies. 373 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:16.640 So out of curiosity, are you familiar with our Title 374 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:18.839 ten and Title fifty authorities? 375 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:22.480 I'm not. You must enlightened me. I might know when 376 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:24.119 you start telling me, they might ring bells. 377 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:29.839 So basically, just the idea of the split between intelligence 378 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:35.559 operations and military operations, and how you know, like for 379 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:39.160 the CIA to sort of have some of those paramilitary 380 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:46.680 capabilities for things that don't fall under like the military authorities, 381 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:51.640 but you know, for but but may take that kind 382 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.920 of action. Do you know if you guys have a 383 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:58.039 similar I know you don't have like a paramilitary, but 384 00:20:58.359 --> 00:21:00.680 do you have authorities set out like that? Or is 385 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.799 your military more like the sas or whatever. Are they 386 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:09.200 more free to conduct, say covert or clandestine operations that 387 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:13.480 you know, like maybe our military. 388 00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:16.039 Wouldn't be Yeah, I think actually there might be a 389 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:20.480 bit more flexibility. And I think it's partly because obviously 390 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:24.440 you guys have a constitution and then the way that 391 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:27.799 is interpreted is the sort of basis of how the 392 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.599 country functions, or at least that's my best understanding of it, 393 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:33.960 whereas Britain famously does not have a written constitution. So 394 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:36.759 there's this kind of flexibility that exists for the government. 395 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:42.440 Typically for both covert operations and espionage operations, there is 396 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:46.440 effectively what we would call a submission process, so that 397 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:51.759 some government minister on obviously, depending on how the level 398 00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:53.720 of risk, it might be the Prime Minister, or it 399 00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:57.960 might be the Foreign Secretary who superintends the intelligence services, 400 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:03.039 we'll have signed off on an operational, you know, a 401 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.240