WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:04.160 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:09.679 My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:12.839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12.919 --> 00:00:15.800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:18.600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18.679 --> 00:00:21.440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:24.760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24.839 --> 00:00:25.519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:27.359 My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27.519 --> 00:00:31.199 I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:34.719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:37.799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:39.079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:43.560 Welcome to Mind Over Murderer. 15 00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:45.719 I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:49.439 We are joined today by Troy Hillman, author of Chasing 17 00:00:49.479 --> 00:00:52.280 Down the Zombie Hunter, the true story of a small 18 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:56.159 town accountant an elite group of detectives in Arizona's most 19 00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:58.079 verifying cold case. 20 00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:01.759 Troy, Welcome to the podcast. Made you guys for having me. 21 00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:05.519 We are so thrilled to be able to talk about 22 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:09.840 this case because it really is a doozy, and it's 23 00:01:09.879 --> 00:01:12.200 one that I think a lot of our listeners might 24 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:15.959 be unfamiliar with. So before we get into your background 25 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:18.519 and how you got involved with the case, start by 26 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.719 talking to us about the case that a lot of 27 00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:25.079 Phoenicians know as the Canal killings, although now I think 28 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:27.359 it's pivoting to be called the Zombie Hunter murders. 29 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:31.920 Tell us about the Canal killings. So the first murder 30 00:01:31.959 --> 00:01:35.079 happened in November of nineteen ninety two. A young woman 31 00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:38.439 named Angela Brosso went for a bike ride at dusk, 32 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:41.719 and that was a Sunday evening, and she never came 33 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:44.560 back from her bike ride. And the next day officers 34 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:49.319 saw that grizzly made a grizzly discovery on the right 35 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:53.519 by her apartment complex, and she had been decapitated. Her 36 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:56.560 head had been taken from the scenes and her bike 37 00:01:56.719 --> 00:01:59.480 as well as her walkman. So that's what officers found. 38 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:04.640 Detectives converged and then just worked the hell out of 39 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:09.520 the basically the investigation and came up with really nothing 40 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:12.479 over the next ten months. And I must say that 41 00:02:12.680 --> 00:02:16.719 ten days after Angela was killed, the killer threw her 42 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:20.319 head back in the canal and that was even more shocking, 43 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:22.280 I think to the city of Phoenix, the state of 44 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:25.120 Arizona that he would do something like that. So then 45 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:28.240 ten months later, in September of nineteen ninety three, a 46 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:30.879 seventeen year old junior at Arcadia High School went for 47 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:34.240 bike ride, her name was Melanie Burtis at dusk and 48 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:36.879 she rode from the Arcadia area, which is on the 49 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:39.560 eastern side of Phoenix, up towards what was known as 50 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:42.680 Metro Center, the north central side of Phoenix, and she 51 00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:45.120 was never She was found the next day, actually floating 52 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:47.879 into the canal, redressed and had been carved on. 53 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:53.159 Were you working the case right from the beginning, Troy. 54 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:57.960 No, I actually I wasn't. Was in college at the time, 55 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:01.680 back at the University of Illinois doing my accounting degree, 56 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:05.199 which i fill to this day. It's a great degree, 57 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:06.840 but I didn't really want to use it. 58 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.439 Accounting definitely has its uses, but I think that you 59 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:13.479 found a way to put your intelligence and skills to 60 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:16.439 much better use. And I'm sure most of Phoenix would 61 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:20.319 agree with my assessment on that one. So the type 62 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:23.319 of killings that you saw here, these really brutal murders, 63 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:25.560 was that normal for Phoenix at that time. 64 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:30.120 No, I honestly, Kristin would say, it's not all for 65 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:32.759 Phoenix at any time or anywhere. It was something kind 66 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.479 of scripted out of a Hollywood It's just this level 67 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:40.360 of brutality. And then we have this awful, horrific murder happen, 68 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:43.240 and then another one ten months later, and then nothing. 69 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:44.960 So you have nothing on the front end and you 70 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:47.759 have nothing on the back end. So investigators were really 71 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:50.560 just stretching their head. And then you had fear amongst 72 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:53.639 the public saying, Okay, this is obviously a serial killer 73 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:56.000 if he's doing these things at the heading and redressing 74 00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:59.520 and carving and these fantasies, so what are you doing 75 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:03.360 about it? And thousands of tips came in internationally and 76 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:06.360 they were able to triage each one, but they were 77 00:04:06.599 --> 00:04:08.840 really it was what was shocking was both girls were 78 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:10.719 killed in the same manner, with the stab wound to 79 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:14.800 the back, both were athletic women, and nobody could really 80 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:18.480 find how he got away with it. Nobody saw anything 81 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:21.600 but either scene, anything substantial. 82 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:25.879 And both of these cases had occurred during the day 83 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:29.759 and people were around, and yet no one seemed to 84 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:33.439 witness anything that would have led them to a suspect. 85 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:37.240 Yeah, both girls went out round of dusk, so there 86 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:41.279 was light. And then I can't say exactly when the perpetrators, 87 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:44.040 I know, build the victims, but yeah, he spent a 88 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:46.639 lot of time with them. But this is November. The 89 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:49.480 factor was in November in Phoenix and the weather's really 90 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:53.480 starting to break, and you've got rollerbladers, you've got the bicyclists, 91 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:56.600 you've got runners and walkers up and down those canal 92 00:04:56.639 --> 00:04:58.720 pass and people are just eager to It's kind of 93 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:02.000 like the Winner back East when it breaks, very eager 94 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:04.199 to get outside. So November in Phoenix is at a 95 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:07.319 time where it's very recreational. So the fact that he 96 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:10.480 was able to do all of this, drag her hundreds 97 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:13.680 of feet and then get away with it that inexplicable. 98 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:16.639 And then so the second murder was in a largely 99 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:21.560 commercial area, but still there were workers at a amusement 100 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:25.199 park which overlooked the scenes, and they were contacted and 101 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:27.759 they said that we saw noth age, which is again 102 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:30.319 it's just shocking and surreal that he was able to 103 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:31.600 go undetected. 104 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:38.240 Yeah you're talking about castles and coasters, right, yeah, yeah, Okay, Yeah, 105 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:41.399 when I first started visiting my aunts in Phoenix in 106 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:43.600 the late nineties, Castles and Coasters was one of the 107 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:46.879 first places that I wanted to go because how cool 108 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:48.839 is it that you've got a neat, little amusement park 109 00:05:48.920 --> 00:05:50.279 right in the middle of the big city. 110 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:50.920 I loved it. 111 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.839 The area is very familiar to me, and when I 112 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:58.800 moved to Phoenix in two thousand and five, I did 113 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:02.079 hear about the case, although right at that time period 114 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:05.560 was when the baseline killer and the serial shooters were working, 115 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:07.759 so I was hearing a lot more about those than 116 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:11.040 I was about the Canal murder. But that was definitely 117 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:14.480 something that was peripherally on my radar that this terrible 118 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:17.839 thing had happened. So I guess my question for you, then, 119 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:21.439 these are two really terrible cases. How did the case 120 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:23.639 ultimately go cold for so many years? 121 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:28.879 This was their bolt were pre DNA and DNA was 122 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:32.160 just starting to become a thing. They found unknown male 123 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:35.480 profiles on both victims clothing and then on the victims, 124 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:38.120 and they were able to pair those and say it 125 00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:41.959 was definitively the same suspect. It was uploaded into the 126 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:46.240 National DNA Clothed system in nineteen ninety nine early two 127 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:49.879 thousand and there were no hits, so it just languished 128 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.079 there sense and that's really how it became cold. And 129 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:55.560 occasionally they would try to revive it with the media. 130 00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:58.560 Silent witnesses of allved. They tried different things to really 131 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:02.079 get people to talk. It just the investigators did a 132 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:05.480 great job of cataloging everything, but it just really had 133 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:08.199 nothing to go on. The travailing opinion when we got 134 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:10.399 to it was he has to be dad, and so 135 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:14.199 at what point then do you join the investigation. You 136 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:17.759 mentioned that you were in college before, ironically working on 137 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:20.759 an accounting degree, but tell us a little bit about 138 00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:26.519 your joining the police force. So in I spent a 139 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:29.759 couple of years auditing for a really large CPA firm, 140 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.560 and I was really miserable. I was looking for something more. 141 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:36.439 And again, it's a great career for some people, and 142 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:40.639 that auditing is that traditionally it canapults you into other positions, 143 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:44.519 whether you be his partner, work at a firm, a controller, CFO, 144 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:46.360 that kind of thing. We could do a lot with it, 145 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:48.480 but I just wasn't interested. I'd been paying to his 146 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:51.399 partner material I'd done really well in the CPA exams, 147 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:53.399 but it just wasn't my cup of tea. So I 148 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:56.680 started testing with local police departments and I ended up 149 00:07:56.879 --> 00:07:59.079 out here in Phoenix. And I always joke because my 150 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:04.959 dad lectured me two thousand miles from Illinois to Arizona, saying, 151 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:07.480 what are you thinking? What are you doing? You have 152 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:09.480 a college degree, you have a CPA, you have the 153 00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:11.279 world in front of you, and now you're going to 154 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:13.639 be a beat cop. He was supportive, but at the 155 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:15.720 same time he was kind of like, are you out 156 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:18.040 of your mind? And so I said, now this is 157 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:20.079 what I want to do. I always joke. I put 158 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:22.959 down my briefcase and calculator, picked up a gun and 159 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:27.519 a badge, and started in phoenics at the academy. Luckily, 160 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:29.439 I had some great people that I worked with. I 161 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:32.879 had a Marine Corps, a veteran that was my tatpool 162 00:08:32.919 --> 00:08:34.679 to the academy, and he taught me. It was kind 163 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:36.879 of like Shawshank Redemption. I taught him how to write 164 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:40.000 and spell, and he taught me how to shoot and 165 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:42.240 basically how to stitch on my shoes. And I try 166 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:44.799 to think it's not you don't learn about in college 167 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:46.879 one on one you don't learn about going through a 168 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:50.320 police academy. So it was a new experience. So fast forward. 169 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:53.480 I had some detective assignment. I did patrol in South Phoenix, 170 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:57.120 did a detective assignment in financial crimes, and then promoted 171 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:00.519 a sergeant. Had my eyes sat on financial crimes, and 172 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:03.320 then I ended up getting a transfer to the administrative 173 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:05.480 I was an administrative sergeant for the commander and the 174 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:08.600 violent crimes bureau. And the violent crimes bureau was divided 175 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:12.440 amongst homicide, robbery, gangs, assaults. I really got to know 176 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:16.039 the homicide lieutenant because he was burded out on Excel 177 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:20.480 spreadsheets like I did. And we had in comment and 178 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:22.559 so he said in two thousand and eight, he said, 179 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:24.639 Troy said, there's going to be an opening in cold 180 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:27.240 case homicide. Would you come over and take over the squad? 181 00:09:27.799 --> 00:09:31.440 And I said no. I said, I've already seen enough 182 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:34.120 dead bodies in patrol and I want to go get 183 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:36.799 my nerd on as a financial guy. And he said, 184 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:40.320 is we could really use your organizational and detail nature 185 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:43.320 of a CPA in cold case homicide? And I said, okay, 186 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:45.440 we'll give it a shot. I'll give it a year, 187 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:48.799 and once I got in at first. The first six 188 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:52.159 months I thought, this is horrible. I've got two detectives. 189 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:54.519 I've got twenty five hundred cases. They don't even exactly 190 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:56.639 they don't even know how many cases we have. They 191 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:59.559 think twenty five hundred. Im, there's just a mess. But 192 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:02.720 it just ended up being this Leve affair and it 193 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:04.879 just took it on almost like a baby, and we 194 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:09.840 figured out how to review cases and really we're kicking butt. 195 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:12.799 We were solving twelve to fifteen cold cases a year 196 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:15.840 and back into the seventies and really had a great 197 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:19.240 relationship with the lab, had great detectives, Rock and Rolling, 198 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:21.279 And so how we got started on the Cant murders. 199 00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:24.360 Twenty eleven, I get a media records request. I go 200 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:26.240 to print it out and I get yelled at by 201 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:29.320 the commander's secretary and I say, yeah, she's a very 202 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:31.480 nice person, but she's coin of troying. You just burned 203 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:34.480 through X number of boxes and toner on the printer, 204 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:36.919 and you just burned through X number of rings of paper. 205 00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:38.360 What are you doing? And I said, I just turnted 206 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:40.759 out the calend murders because I needed to go through 207 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:43.600 them and line by line and make sure we redacted 208 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:48.360 them doing so, I realized, wow, this is how did 209 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:50.759 we not ever solve this? How did we not figure 210 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:53.399 it out? Should we assemble a team and solve it? 211 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:55.759 And I think at first thought, Hey, I can solve it. 212 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:58.240 I'm a CPN realized no, I need a team. 213 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:03.159 One of the most interesting parts of the book is 214 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:06.559 as you go around and describe assembling your dream team 215 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.080 to help you solve this. And you pulled together so 216 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:12.879 many different types of people and they all of course 217 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:18.039 worked together really well to eventually solve the case. Would 218 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:21.519 you what do you think is the main saying that 219 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:24.559 got you that final break in the case. 220 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:28.799 So fast forward. The case took us about three and 221 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:31.559 a half years to work and I always tell people 222 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:34.759 we could have put down the other twenty four hundred 223 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:37.240 and ninety eight cases that we're working on, and to 224 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:40.600 tell the survivor's family with families, Hey, we're only dedicating 225 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:43.240 our time to the Canal murders. So we were working 226 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:46.679 all these cases, doing all these court testimonies, doing all 227 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:49.159 these cold case functions, but we're also working heavily on 228 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:52.120 the Canal murders. So three and a half years we 229 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:55.000 first took a look at the cases. Every good cold 230 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:58.159 case starts with what did we miss? In the original case, 231 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:00.240 who did we miss? And there were a lot in 232 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:03.240 there that they missed because of again, DNA was not 233 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:06.320 really a thing. So we flew all over the country 234 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:10.159 and got DNA and that had its own challenges, and 235 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:12.440 then we'd get excited. It was a roller coaster ride 236 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:15.000 only to get to call from the lab of it's 237 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:18.519 not him, and so it was almost like bodyblow if 238 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:20.279 you're in box A over those three and a half 239 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:23.080 years and after a while you're just like, wow, we 240 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:26.399 may not ever solve this. We did have some great 241 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:28.559 help along the way. We got to fly back and 242 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:31.679 talk to the VIDOC Society, which is we've talked about 243 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:33.639 as that group out of that think tank out of 244 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:37.600 Philadelphia nationalon of Law Enforcement. This brilliant group of people 245 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:39.720 that kind of ap signs on your case and kind 246 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:41.360 of directs you, Hey, what do you miss? What did 247 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:43.720 you do? What did you do wrong? And they helped 248 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:46.399 us and blatched onto profiler. I'll leave that to the book. 249 00:12:46.519 --> 00:12:50.399 Richard Walter was his name, extremely eccentric. It just he's 250 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:52.399 his own. I don't know, I don't know if you 251 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:56.240 met Richard, but he's quite an eccentric, brilliant guy, very controversial. 252 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:00.519 And then we ended up using genito genealogy. We got 253 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:04.559 a call from doctor Colleen Fitzpatrick and this is twenty fourteen, 254 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:07.440 and this is four years before the Golden State Killer 255 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:11.440 and STENY'STD really hasn't talked about it, but we're really 256 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:15.519 pioneers and using genetic genealogy to solve a serial killer case. 257 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.200 And we used it on Miss Kings and it was 258 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:19.559 a huge breakthrough. 259 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:25.000 Tell us that story about Colleen reaching out to you, 260 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:28.120 because Colleen's told us the story, but we'd like to 261 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:29.720 hear it from your perspective. 262 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:35.279 Yeah. So I again, we're body blow, head blow, we're 263 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:37.240 just weary, and we get this call. I get this 264 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:40.799 voicemail from one of my detectives, very in and sometimes 265 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:43.440 I always joked as a sergeant when a detective really 266 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:45.759 was didn't know what to do, they would just be like, oh, 267 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:48.639 I'll give this to Serge. And so she forwarded with 268 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:52.360 this email and said, hey, Serge, I really don't know 269 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:54.080 what to do with this, but if you could, we 270 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:56.919 could discuss it. And so it was basically Colleen and 271 00:13:56.960 --> 00:13:58.879 she said, hey, I'm going to be in town. I'm 272 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:00.960 going to be staying at the Biltmore Resorts, and I'm 273 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:03.600 going to be part of this LAPP DNA conference and 274 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:05.759 I'm going to be lecturing, and I'd love to come 275 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:08.799 talk to your squad. And so I immediately reached out. 276 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:11.519 I started googlayer and figuring out who she was, and 277 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:13.720 then I found out she had a PhD from Duke 278 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:16.519 and was this brilliant person. And then I asked. I 279 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:18.279 called over to Kelly at the lad who was my 280 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:21.279 DNA supervisor counterpart, and I said to Kelly, I said, 281 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:24.639 you know, look this about genealogy, my follow in law, 282 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:28.679 the ancestry my dad does ancestry. Is there a correlation 283 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:31.639 with law enforcement? She said yeah, I think it's going 284 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:34.200 to be a thing. And she's I've been reading about 285 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:36.039 it and this again, this is twenty fourteen. 286 00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:36.759 Wow. 287 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:39.279 So she says, hey, I'll go. I had her team, 288 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:42.399 her DNA team, Kelly's go talk to Colleen at the 289 00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:46.440 conference and give me a backstory to say, is she 290 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:49.360 legit is? Can this before we even have her over 291 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:52.039 to talk to us? Screen her out, so to speak? 292 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:54.639 And she said, Troy, she's brilliant. I think she could 293 00:14:54.679 --> 00:14:55.000 help you. 294 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:00.639 Very cool And for anybody who doesn't remember, Colleen Fitzpatrick 295 00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:05.159 is actually legitimately a rocket scientist, among the many other 296 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:06.960 sterling qualities. 297 00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:08.039 That she has. 298 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:09.720 And so when you met her, Troy, what did you 299 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:10.240 think of her? 300 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:16.600 She's this sweet older lady but just was very polished 301 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:19.080 and spoke in a very direct manner. And I guess 302 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:23.559 the feeling amongst my squad when she left was, Wow, 303 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:27.399 that's awesome, But we really don't know Faul like she 304 00:15:27.399 --> 00:15:30.080 She explained it to us, but it completely went over 305 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:33.080 our heads. And I just they say, we're a bunch 306 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:37.320 of dumb cops, but we reasonably intelligent people. But yeah, 307 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:40.879 she's a notch aboves most people. So how she takes 308 00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:43.240 a string of numbers or a strand and comes out 309 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:45.600 with Ally's joke, Maybe it was the flux to past 310 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:48.440 her from back to the future days. She puts it 311 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:50.840 in there, She puts it in there, and then it 312 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:53.960 spits out a surname. And the funny part of that 313 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:56.960 whole thing was he wanted to charge us, and I 314 00:15:57.039 --> 00:15:59.039 knew as a sergeant. I'd been a sergeant long enough 315 00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:02.120 and played the government game. Aims that if she would 316 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:05.000 do it on the house, then I could get it 317 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:09.200 approved tomorrow. If she attached even a dollar to it. 318 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:11.879 It was going to be this fight, this battle up 319 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:14.240 to chain of command. And so for seven hundred and 320 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:18.279 fifty dollars. We battled for about three months and tried 321 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:20.519 to convince the upper chain that this was going to 322 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:22.720 be a thing, that we had vetted it out. We 323 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:24.720 had talked to the prosecutors, we talked to the lab 324 00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:27.279 we'd talked to her, and they really weren't giving her 325 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:32.039 any great secrets of the investigation. She just wanted the numbers. Finally, 326 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:35.320 they reenlighted it and she was able to do her faith. 327 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:38.960 And seven hundred and fifty dollars is the biggest bargain 328 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:40.720 in the history of law enforcement. 329 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:41.039 Too. 330 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:47.720 It's not like she was asking for a lot of money, No, and. 331 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:50.399 She deserved to get paid. I just knew the game, 332 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:52.840 and I knew that if we could circumvent it. I 333 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:55.879 also told her, I said, Colleen, the Canal murders are huge, 334 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:58.399 and if you're this could make your career, This could 335 00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:02.080 make genealogy a sing And she said, I know, she said, 336 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:05.359 but I'm sticking to it. Sever fifty dollars, and like 337 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:07.400 I said, she deserved to get paid. And then so 338 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:10.799 and we were we had volunteers wanting to write checks. 339 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:12.759 We had we were going to take up a collection. 340 00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:16.160 But in government is marred with red tape. There's no 341 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:19.359 way that even a private entity couldn't fund that. And 342 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:23.480 we were getting whispers of voodoo and witchcraft, and you 343 00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:26.519 guys have lost your marbles. And to me, cold case 344 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:29.359 has to be innovative. You have to. You can't just 345 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:31.799 do what you did yesterday. You have to think outside 346 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:34.680 the box and look at everything, put your ego at 347 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:37.759 the door and say, let's go talk to the Vatox Society, 348 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:41.079 let's go talk to Colleen. Let's use these experts and 349 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:44.279 do innovative things. But that doesn't always go well in 350 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:48.200 government because typically it's just what did we do ten 351 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:49.720 years ago, We're going to do the same thing. 352 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:55.640 So when Colleen did her saying put all the things 353 00:17:55.640 --> 00:18:00.920 through the flux capacitor, the surname that came out was Miller. 354 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:05.680 Did that ring any bells for you guys? When she said, hey, 355 00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:08.440 it's somebody with the name of Miller. Did that immediately 356 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:09.559 run up the red flags. 357 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:13.519 I think the red flags were more of my extended 358 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:15.640 family that were in town when I got the call, 359 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:18.599 because I went screeching out of here to get to headquarters, 360 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.400 out of my house to because I needed to do 361 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:23.799 what the Vdocs Society told us and Richard told us 362 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:26.680 was check the files. He's got to be in your files. 363 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:28.480 Say this is a Bundi. They're always in the files. 364 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:32.720 And so I had Mark, my organization detective. I said, Mark, 365 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:35.359 would you go to the basement pull the millers and 366 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:38.359 he said, came back and he's here you go. Would 367 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:40.799 you like door closed or open? I'm like closing please, 368 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:44.200 And so I spent the next few minutes looking the 369 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:48.119 first couple of millers were I was like, nothing too exciting. 370 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:50.160 And then I hit on this and it was filed 371 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:52.960 six sixty eight and it was Brian Patrick's billow. 372 00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:56.839 And he had been a suspect in the early going 373 00:18:57.160 --> 00:18:58.640 of these murders. 374 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:03.319 Yeah, and after the second murder, so they did something 375 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:05.759 brilliant and they put out that the police farmer did 376 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:08.480 they put out so the second victim was redressed in 377 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:12.319 a small girl's bodysuit, and so they took a replica 378 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:14.119 of that and they put it out to the media 379 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:17.200 and they said, is anybody know. They tried to trace 380 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:20.400 back where it was bought and then where it could 381 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:22.960 be purchased, and then they also again put it out 382 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:25.559 the media and tips came in from that. One of 383 00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:29.960 the tips identified Miller as having that particular bodysuit in 384 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:32.839 his possession right around the time of the second murder. 385 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:39.359 Oh god, this guy. So yeah, let's get into the 386 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:43.119 Brian Patrick Miller of it all. The guy has a 387 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:48.240 pretty interesting set of hobbies outside of murdering people, and 388 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:51.079 he's got a pretty interesting nickname which lends its title 389 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:55.279 to your book, The Zombie Hunter. Explain the hobbies that 390 00:19:55.400 --> 00:19:57.599 lend itself to the name of the Zombie Hunter, please. 391 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:02.240 Yeah. So, well, Milner was a big part. He was 392 00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:05.880 a local celebrity. He was creating around as this Zombie 393 00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:09.400 Hunter persona. He was really into comic con and he 394 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.599 was really into steampunk. And in fact, we took a 395 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:16.160 lot of flak once we were throbing into Miller from 396 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:18.359 those groups because they said, Hey, we don't want you 397 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:20.319 to think that we're all bad, and I'm like, no, 398 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:22.319 we don't think the draw bad. We just think that 399 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:25.720 a bad guy is hiding amongst you hiding in plain sight. 400 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:28.599 So if that was interesting. I didn't even know what 401 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:31.960