WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:04.960 Oh hey, it's the ghost of podcasts past Ali Ward. 2 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:09.800 I am bringing you an early lost episode from twenty 3 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:13.359 seventeen for today twenty twenty one. I never ever ever 4 00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:15.480 thought I had aired this one. This one was dead 5 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:18.239 to me. It has been sealed tightly in a vault 6 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:22.480 for three and a half years, in shame. It's one 7 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:25.239 of the very very first interviews I ever did for Ologies, 8 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:28.960 before the podcast even really existed, before there was like 9 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:32.640 a format, before I figured my shit out, before any pandemics, 10 00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:36.399 and definitely before I knew how to use sound recording equipment. 11 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:38.159 And so I need to warn you. If this is 12 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:40.840 your very very first episode of Ologies you're ever listening to, 13 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:43.240 please go away, just stop. Just put a pin in 14 00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:48.159 this episode, turn around, pick another episode. Okay, Ologites, people 15 00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:49.840 who have been around long enough to know all my 16 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:52.479 secrets and call me Dad, this one's for you. This 17 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:56.399 episode again dead and gone. Every time I thought about 18 00:00:56.399 --> 00:01:00.799 this interview, I cringe, and even like now, I literally 19 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:03.880 got like tinkles up my spine and I shuddered one 20 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:06.439 hundred percent honest. Okay, So here's what happened. It was 21 00:01:06.519 --> 00:01:10.319 June twenty seventeen, before I ever released the first Ologies episode, 22 00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:12.560 I went to London for work and I packed all 23 00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:15.879 my audio equipment just for this interview, and I met 24 00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:18.239 up at the Natural History Museum of London for an 25 00:01:18.280 --> 00:01:22.560 interview about parasitology. I did the mic check, not realizing 26 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:25.879 that the two handheld microphones were picking up nothing and 27 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:28.680 instead it was just the little built in mic capturing 28 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:31.400 us talking. Now we're able to sweeten the sound, make 29 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:33.439 it work a little bit. But before I tell you 30 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:35.640 the rest, just a really quick thanks to all the 31 00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:38.879 folks on Patreon, Patreon dot com, Sashologies. Thank you everyone 32 00:01:39.079 --> 00:01:42.319 to everyone who rates and subscribes, especially people who write 33 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:46.159 reviews such as this one from Hi my name is 34 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:50.200 who listens while boiling coyote bones in a lab? They say, 35 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:53.040 and they wrote, I'm truly in tears thinking about how 36 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:55.680 Ologies has filled my heart and brain with excitement and 37 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:58.040 joy while living some of my darkest days of this year. 38 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:00.959 Thank you, Hi my name is, Please don't make me cry. 39 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:04.959 So the topic is bill harziology and you're like, the 40 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:06.200 fuck is that? Okay? 41 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:06.319 So? 42 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:11.599 Bilharzia are types of parasitic worms, and bill Harzia comes 43 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:13.759 from the name of the guy who first identified these 44 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:17.759 old critters a German dude named Theodore Bill Hars really 45 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:21.400 the world's first Bill harzyologist, and because I was not 46 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:24.800 great at interviewing it, the questions are all over the place. 47 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:30.360 We talk about parasites, but mostly Bill Harzia, which cause schistosomiasis. 48 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:35.240 So I checked Bill harzyology. Bam, one Google result. This 49 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:39.240 word has been used one time before in a typewriter 50 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:43.599 written nineteen sixty World Health Organization report in regard to 51 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:47.879 Bill harziologists or scientists who study the disease caused by 52 00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:52.000 blood flukes. It's on. So this ologist has likely completely 53 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:55.199 forgotten that they sat down for a twenty seventeen interview 54 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:57.759 for a podcast that didn't exist yet, But in her 55 00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:00.719 email agreeing to do it, she promised, I will bring 56 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:04.719 you some lovely slash nasty specimens, and that she did so. 57 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:08.479 She is communications and program manager for the Global Schistasamiasis 58 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:13.280 Alliance and her background is in tropical diseases and biomedical research. 59 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:16.599 She did a postdoc at the Natural History Museum where 60 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.879 she still does research. So curl up, put on your 61 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:22.759 skinny genes from four years ago. I still wear mine 62 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:28.000 and get ready to ingest some lost episode, vintage baby ologies, 63 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:35.639 banter about curly worms, vials of vile creatures, snails, flatworm drama, 64 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:41.879 febrile delirium, spooning, outmoded gender roles, historical weight loss, pills, 65 00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:47.080 unfortunate snacks, and some new therapies with parasite researcher and 66 00:03:47.159 --> 00:04:27.439 bilharziologist doctor Anuke Goubras. 67 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:12.080 Well, we're recording, but again, Karl is out to take 68 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:13.159 you on to test your levels. 69 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:18.639 Okay, not entirely sure what to say, but it's good. 70 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:20.040 Your level looks good. 71 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:23.879 As it turns out, her levels were not good, and 72 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:27.639 go Res got it. Also in twenty seventeen, I hadn't 73 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.399 yet started asking the guest pronouns, but I checked in 74 00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:32.000 her Twitter bio, says she her. 75 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:37.959 So, I currently I am the communications and program manager 76 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:43.360 for an organization called the Global Shista Saisis Alliance, and 77 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:47.600 that is going to require some explaining. So I'm based 78 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:49.759 at the museum, but it's actually an independent body that 79 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:53.600 looks at a particular parasite and a particular parasitic disease 80 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:58.240 called schistasamisis that infects two hundred and fifty million people worldwide, 81 00:04:58.439 --> 00:05:01.879 particularly in some Soaran Africa. It's caused by a parasitic 82 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:05.360 worm called shista selma or shist of selms, which I 83 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:06.480 have some samples of here. 84 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:09.360 And we're looking jars in front of us, and it 85 00:05:09.399 --> 00:05:14.879 looks like there's just squiggles, evil squiggles, evil white squiggles 86 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:15.680 in the bottom of them. 87 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:17.680 Yeah, they are evil white squiggles. 88 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:20.560 What's the name s Where does that come from? 89 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:22.160 Shista soma? 90 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:26.240 I think it comes to describe the actual body of 91 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:30.800 these worms. So they're quite unusual looking in that they. 92 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:33.639 Look round like roundworms, but. 93 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:36.720 They actually are flatworms that are curved in, or the 94 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:38.680 males are. They're flat and curved in, and they create 95 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:42.079 this little groove and the female worm who is around 96 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:45.360 sits in that groove and it's sort of almost like 97 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:49.720 a sort of split body. There's another stage, they're larval stage, 98 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:52.240 which also has a split tail, so that also is 99 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:53.120 like a shist. 100 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:54.879 So a shist is a split. 101 00:05:54.680 --> 00:06:01.079 So shister split soma body. And though there are over 102 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:05.199 twenty five recognized species, only a small handful infect humans, 103 00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:08.560 and the size varies depending on the species. But in 104 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:12.360 their tiny jars in front of us, they look like short, 105 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:17.399 errant threads picked off a cotton sweater. Now under a microscope, 106 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:21.040 the paired couples looked kind of like a pink green 107 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:24.600 bean slightly a jar and acting as a hammock for 108 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:29.120 another much smaller pink green bean, which is just nestled 109 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:34.399 in a sexy patriarchal groove that scientists call a gynocophoric canal. 110 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:38.279 They're the couple engaged in uncomfortable PDA at a dinner party. 111 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:38.959 Too close. 112 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:42.079 What are the ladies doing curled up in that? 113 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:44.519 So they're very traditional lifestyle. 114 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:49.279 They pair up male and female and they actually reside 115 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:52.680 in the blood system of mammals. And the male is 116 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:56.279 strong and muscular, and he holds onto the vein wall 117 00:06:56.680 --> 00:06:59.519 and the feeds. The female protects the female, and the 118 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:02.000 female sits there and produces eggs. She just sits in 119 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:04.279 this grove that he's made for her, juice eggs. 120 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:05.000 That's all she does. 121 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:07.279 That's so like atomic family. 122 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:10.360 Yes, that's way so traditional. 123 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:12.879 What happened? These ladies aren't like getting out. 124 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:16.959 They have been documented cases of evidence that they do 125 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:21.680 swap partners, but the females actually cannot produce eggs and 126 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:24.720 become quite stunted if they're not paired up with males, 127 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:29.079 so they clearly they have to actually exist paired up 128 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:31.160 with a male in order to be able to feed 129 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:36.720 themselves at it adequately. So yeah, that's quite in very empowerful. 130 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:38.199 No, it's not empowering at all. 131 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:42.319 So I was wondering how they pick mates in the dark, 132 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:46.279 sticky tunnels of our blood vessels, and luckily I found 133 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:50.560 a two thousand and nine International Journal of Parasitology paper 134 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:54.600 titled the Sex Lives of Parasites Investigating the Mating System 135 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:59.959 and Mechanisms of Sexual Selection of the human pathogen Schistosoma manson, 136 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:04.199 And it had everything I never knew I wanted. Okay, 137 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:08.279 first off, they are mostly monogamous. Wait, mostly your soulmate 138 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:11.560 lives in your body. Now, in this study, it was 139 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:16.240 observed that the guys could stuff their groove with multiple 140 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:19.319 ladies and only actually mate with one of them. Well, 141 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:21.319 the other ones are just crammed in there like kind 142 00:08:21.319 --> 00:08:24.759 of sister worms. Wondering if they should have frozen some larvae. Now, 143 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:27.639 does this mean that there are shy worms with no 144 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:29.399 one to nap in their sex canal? 145 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:29.959 Well? 146 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:34.639 The study continues that quote male body size was positively 147 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:38.559 related to reproductive success. So, wow, worms, I thought you 148 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:40.960 were above it. But worm gossip is not over yet. 149 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:45.360 So sometimes long term pairs get a divorce and the 150 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:49.240 lady squirms out of the dude because there's another mate 151 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:52.120 less related to her. So she's like, thank you so 152 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:54.639 much for all the nutrients that you sucked from this person, 153 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:57.120 but I got a piece because that guy is not 154 00:08:57.240 --> 00:08:59.799 my cousin like you are, and I wish you nothing 155 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:02.600 but the best. Please do not text me now. Hopefully 156 00:09:02.919 --> 00:09:06.679 another mate will come along and catch their eye or whatever. 157 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:09.879 They don't particularly have eyes or anything like that, so 158 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:13.799 living in the blood system, it's all done by chemical cues. 159 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:15.080 So they just slip it out. 160 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:18.759 Yeah, so okay, now they are flatworms. 161 00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:22.919 Yes, so they're tramatodes or flatworms, so sort of like 162 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:26.000 the liver fluke, but the liver fluke lives in the liver, 163 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:30.360 whereas in schistosomes are blood flukes. They live in the 164 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:34.639 blood system of mammals including humans and also birds. Actually 165 00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:37.720 you get some schistosomes that infect birds, not the same 166 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:41.399 ones though different species. So even the evil squiggly worms 167 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:44.840 I've got in tubes right here, we've got a couple. 168 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:48.840 We have three different species that infect cattle in front 169 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:52.399 of us and then this one here is the species 170 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:56.559 that infects humans. It's called Schistosoma mansonai and it causes 171 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:00.320 a disease called intestinal schistosomiasis, which can be fair found 172 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:04.200 in a variety of countries, but mainly in Sub Saharan 173 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:07.159 African countries and also in Brazil, and it's quite nasty. 174 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:10.679 It can cause quite severe organ damage, but it's a 175 00:10:10.759 --> 00:10:14.600 very gradual disease, so it builds up over time and 176 00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:16.919 people get more and more infected, they get more and 177 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:21.080 more damage to their organs, and so they get infected 178 00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:23.519 when they're maybe children, and then by the time they're 179 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:28.480 the age of thirty, they have lots of complications organ complications, 180 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:32.720 like they could potentially have the swollen liver and damaged liver, 181 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:35.519 so their liver isn't functioning properly and it could lead 182 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:38.519 to liver failure failure. But they can also get damage 183 00:10:38.519 --> 00:10:42.039 in the lungs, damage in the spleen, lots of complications 184 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:45.600 that way. Another similar species, which is the Selma Hematobium, 185 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:51.559 causes eurogenital shist of smisis and that is very painful, 186 00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:55.320 very nasty and can lead to bladder cancer, kidney failure, 187 00:10:55.600 --> 00:11:00.000 so it can cause sterility, can potentially increase HIV transmit 188 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:01.559 and it's quite nasty. 189 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:04.200 So how did you get what did you study? How 190 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:04.879 did you get. 191 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:10.080 Involved in parasites and shift aim because you're a parasitologist. Yes, right, yeah, 192 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:14.200 I'm a parasitologist. I didn't start off as a parasitologist. 193 00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:18.120 So I always liked animals as a kid, and I 194 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:20.399 always liked the marine. 195 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:23.480 Sort of environment. So I first started doing marine. 196 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:27.399 Zoology, studying animals of the sea, but we also had 197 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:30.480 some general biology lectures and it was in one of 198 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:34.759 those that we started learning about parasitic infections and it 199 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:36.960 wasn't shift asilmes. It was a different parasite that we 200 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:39.960 were learning about, one that's transmitted by insect bites, and 201 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.080 I found it so fascinating, but suddenly decided that maybe 202 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.320 I would pursue that a little bit more, and I 203 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:49.320 started going to the parasite based lab sessions that they had. 204 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:53.080 I then decided to do my masters in parasites and 205 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:57.600 the Biology and Control of Parasites at the Liverpool School 206 00:11:57.600 --> 00:11:58.639 of Tropical Medicine. 207 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:01.240 So yes, she got a back of Science at the 208 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:04.679 University of Wales and a master's at the Liverpool School 209 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:08.200 of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene, and then her PhD from 210 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:12.919 Imperial College London in the Department of Infectious Disease Epidemiology. 211 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:16.960 Now did she always have an aptitude for bill harziology? 212 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:17.960 Was it in her blood? 213 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:18.720 Proverbially? 214 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:23.360 What was your gateway parasite? What was the one from insects? 215 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:24.720 Yeah, it was. 216 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:29.879 I think it must have been tripan asamiasis not long word. 217 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:36.840 All these parasites have long words. Yeah, But it's also 218 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:42.240 known as shagas disease. It occurs in South America and 219 00:12:42.279 --> 00:12:44.399 it's really nasty. 220 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:46.080 I've heard of that. 221 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.960 They're transmitted by these big kissing bugs or assassin bugs 222 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:53.480 they're also called, and they can cause quite a lot 223 00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:56.679 of damage to people and gradually make them. 224 00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:57.360 Very very ill. 225 00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:00.840 Again, these are all sort of gradual diseases, but shaggers 226 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:02.080 can be very fatal. 227 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:04.159 Did Darwin possibly have that? 228 00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:04.879 Yes? 229 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:09.679 He did, Actually he got There is this sort of 230 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:13.440 myth that he even collected the insect that bit him, 231 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:18.000 and it's in our collections. No, I wouldn't say that 232 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:22.080 it's absolutely certain. It is a insect, one of these 233 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:24.600 assassin bugs that he collected. Now, whether it's the one 234 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:25.639 that bit him, I don't know. 235 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:27.960 But yeah, and. 236 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:32.240 So did he Did he die from it or did 237 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:34.080 he suffer from from Shager's disease. 238 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:36.519 It's a good question, Actually he did. I think he 239 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:38.679 did suffer from it, but I don't know if that is. 240 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:42.240 I don't think he died from it, but might be wrong. 241 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:44.919 I remember a story of him being so excited about 242 00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:46.480 collecting bugs that he ran out of. 243 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:48.240 Hands, and so he put one in his mouth. 244 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:53.799 Oh no, okay, So I fact checked this. 245 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:58.519 And aside from unraveling the mysteries of evolution, Darwin was 246 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:00.639 also that friend you had who was always trying to 247 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:03.000 figure out why they were sick. And this dude was 248 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:06.679 out there on boats trying to collect creatures while also 249 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:11.440 barfing after every meal. He had CVS, which is not 250 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:16.480 a disorder of elongated cash register receipts, but rather cyclic 251 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:17.879 vomiting syndrome. 252 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:19.679 Oh, poor dude. 253 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:23.399 As well as ailments that modern day physicians looking back 254 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:27.679 suspect were each Pylori bacteria, which causes ulcers and yes, 255 00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:31.120 shagas disease, which may have led to heart problems that 256 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:34.639 led to his death. Now, given the poor Chuck was 257 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:38.240 prone to fits of upchuck, it is no wonder he 258 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:42.639 penned my most favorite journal snippet in eighteen sixty one quote, 259 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:46.399 I am very poorly today and very stupid, and I 260 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:52.279 hate everybody and everything. That is some relatable content. Okay, 261 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:54.519 Now back to schistosome's So. 262 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:56.039 That was that quite interested? 263 00:14:56.360 --> 00:14:58.960 Yeah, that learning about how the. 264 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:04.159 Control of this was controlling the disease in South America. 265 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:05.879 And so what is it about? 266 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:09.039 I mean, this isn't maybe a stupid question, but what 267 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:14.600 is different from just being infected with so a bacteria 268 00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:15.799 versus a parasite? 269 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:17.559 Like when does something become parasitic? 270 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:19.559 Ah, that's a really good question. 271 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:22.360 And so you know loads of people who will argue that, 272 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:24.919 you know, maybe bacteria are also parasites and things like 273 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:29.720 or viruses, but really parasites and they tend to be 274 00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:34.200 things like malaria. So it's like a protozoan, which is malaria. 275 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:38.159 Malaria as a protozoon it's a sort of simple cell 276 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.799 cellular organism that lives in the blood. But then you 277 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:44.799 can get other parasites that are like these shistos worms. 278 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:49.840 Which are clearly much more complicated, much bigger multicellular organisms. 279 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:55.519 They have evolved very a very specific survival strategy. 280 00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:56.440 If you want. 281 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:01.600 Parasites, it's more of a life strategy then a particular 282 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:05.120 type of organism. So it very much has to do 283 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:09.519 with anything that lives in or on another organism, taking 284 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:13.360 nutrients and benefiting from that, but to the detriment of 285 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:16.799 the host. So there will always be a host parasite relationship. 286 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.840 Now that's why it's sort of Some people will argue 287 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:21.679 that bacteria is similar to that, but there are a 288 00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:24.840 lot of free living bacteria and bacteria might may or 289 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:27.000 may not cause you damage. 290 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:30.799 So part of being a parasite is the effect that 291 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:34.120 it has on the host, and dictionaries defined a parasite 292 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:37.000 is something that lives off a host quote without making 293 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:40.960 a useful or adequate return. So they're not just the 294 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:43.559 ones who don't chip in on the big dinner bill, 295 00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:46.200 but they never chip in like you can rely on 296 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:48.679 them to not be reliable to chip in. 297 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:54.000 Yes, there's also an interesting relationship between the parasite and 298 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:56.600 the host, and that it's not in the parasite's interest 299 00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:59.279 to kill you atright to kill the host outright. It 300 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:01.720 wants the host to survive as long as possible so 301 00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:04.960 that it can reproduce, so it's not an a media 302 00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:08.920 killer like some other infections. Anthras, for example, will want 303 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:10.880 the body to go straight back into the earth, so 304 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:12.920 it'll kill straight away. 305 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.079 Anthrax by the Bye is a thrash metal band from 306 00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:19.240 the eighties whose name was chosen because one of the 307 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:22.640 members read about a spore releasing bacterium of the same 308 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:26.359 name that, if weaponized and inhaled, kills eighty five to 309 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:29.440 ninety percent of patients who don't get treatment. So the 310 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:32.480 band said they liked the name anthrax because it sounded 311 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:35.680 sufficiently evil, and now I agree with them. 312 00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:38.480 Whereas in the parasite wants actually the host to survive 313 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:41.920 as long as possible so they can continue to reproduce 314 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:46.079 and continue to send its offspring out there in whichever 315 00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:49.759 way it does, whether it's through another insect carrying its 316 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:53.440 offspring off, or whether the offspring come out in the 317 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:57.920 case of schistosounds with stool and urine entering the environment. 318 00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:01.960 There are different ways that parasites can transmit and continue 319 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:02.799 their life cycle. 320 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:07.079 Do you ever like overly apply. 321 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:11.319 The strategies of parasites to like psychological things in your life. 322 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:13.799 Are you ever like your roommate where you're like. 323 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.200 Saying nutrients, like, do you ever does that ever relate 324 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:19.240 to your psychology? 325 00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:20.640 No? 326 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:22.119 I don't think so. I don't know that. 327 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:26.400 I tend to not really think of parasites in terms 328 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:31.599 of humans, but I think potentially some things I like 329 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:35.759 in terms of yeah, maybe in terms of sort of relationships, 330 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:39.279 particularly when it comes to what parasites and hosts do, 331 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:42.880 which is in the evolutionary arms race based on also 332 00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:46.720 called the red Queen hypothesis. The red Queen hypothesis comes 333 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:50.440 from Lewis Carroll in where you have to run as 334 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:51.720 fast as you can in order. 335 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:52.599 To stay in the same place. 336 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:57.640 So the parasite is constantly finding ways to infect the host. 337 00:18:57.720 --> 00:18:59.839 The host is constantly trying to find ways to prevent 338 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:05.160 s parasitic infections, so they constantly have this battle where 339 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:08.279 every time the host finds another way to stop infections 340 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:11.680 or to stop the parasite from spreading, the parasite will 341 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:15.359 find another way to get past that hurdle. So they're 342 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:17.359 both running as fast as they can stay in the 343 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:20.519 same place. With the red Queen hypothesis, and that you 344 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:22.720 can see in a lot of things and how the 345 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:25.720 world works that we are constantly doing that. 346 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:29.920 So it's actually yeah, yes, Like who would have thought 347 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:34.599 that bials of these tiny curlial words would be could 348 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:35.880 cause such drama? 349 00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:39.079 Who would have thought? Ali, Maybe the two hundred and 350 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.279 fifty million people globally who have just a semiasis, or 351 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:45.240 maybe the scientists who have dedicated their lives to finding 352 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.799 treatments and cures. But yes, lady, who has never risked 353 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:52.400 these parasitic flatworms spooning and boning in your life blood? 354 00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:53.799 They do cause trauma? 355 00:19:54.119 --> 00:20:00.359 Yeah, might be slightly being slightly focusing on the negative 356 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:01.400 aspects of parasites. 357 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:03.119 There are, believing or not some. 358 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:05.519 Positive aspects of them as well, so you can use 359 00:20:05.559 --> 00:20:09.559 them in positive ways. That can you use them in 360 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:10.319 positive ways? 361 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:11.119 Okay? 362 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:16.519 To give an example, I think our museum curator, for example, 363 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:21.000 she sometimes gets called in with live animals that have 364 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:24.839 been confiscated from people who brought them into the country 365 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:29.440 or different countries. The people have confiscated these animals, they 366 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:31.799 don't know if the animal has come from the. 367 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:34.720 Wild or if it has indeed, as has. 368 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:37.039 Been claimed by the paperwork, by the person bringing in 369 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:42.279 being bred domestically and therefore can be traded we taging 370 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:46.079 like baby tigers, or well not baby tigers, but Comeleians 371 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:50.319 for example, Okay, like Madagascar comeleons, which people can have 372 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:53.559 as a pet if they're bred domestically, but you can't 373 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:56.279 collect them from the wild, and if you look at 374 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:00.400 the parasites that live inside them, you can tell pretty 375 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:03.400 quickly if it's a parasite that only exists in the wild. 376 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:06.039 In Madagascar, you know, that chameleon couldn't possibly have been 377 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:09.599 bread domestically, so it was adopted. 378 00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:11.039 It wasn't, you know, a real. 379 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.359 Bread domestically bread comeleianon, because there's no way they could 380 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:18.279 have picked up there was parasites anywhere else. So that 381 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:21.480 that is one aspect for example. There's also another aspects 382 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:27.759 where you get parasites that can control insects that damage crops, 383 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:31.240 So that's another thing that you can potentially use parasites for. 384 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:35.759 I'm still locking there's that the forensic science of chamelion 385 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:37.440 parasites is a good thing. 386 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:44.680 Chamelion, well, but our traveicking kindyt control it, yeah again, 387 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:47.240 or you'll get really nasty parasites and you'll get parasites 388 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:49.480 that aren't so nasty, So maybe the chameleon's like I 389 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:52.079 don't like the parasite, but it's not completely messing up 390 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:53.039 my life. 391 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:56.640 So okay, again, this was an early interview, and we're 392 00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.880 talking about chameleon parasites right now, which then led me 393 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:03.200 down a rabbit hole reading a two thousand and seven 394 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:06.440 news article about a guy from Croatia who vacationed in Thailand. 395 00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:09.640 He was caught in customs with a wriggling suitcase that 396 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:14.160 authorities discovered was filled with one hundred and seventy five chamellions. 397 00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:17.200 So let's not do that humans. But one thing we 398 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:20.319 can do is donate to a charity of the ologists choosing. 399 00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:23.440 And this episode of so long ago, the benefit of 400 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:25.480 your episode being on a shelf for three and a 401 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:28.680