WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:10.080 The Low and welcome to Mythic Mind. We pursue wisdom 2 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:12.960 in the past between primary and secondary worlds. I'm your host, 3 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:15.320 Andrew Snyder, and I am always grateful. 4 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:21.559 For your company. 5 00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:31.160 Hell and welcome back to what I think is now 6 00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:34.439 our third or maybe fourth show without skipping weeks. And 7 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:37.439 I personally really like this model. I like this frequency, 8 00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:39.479 and I would love to keep it up, So be 9 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:42.280 sure to check out patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind 10 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:44.280 and lend support if you would like for me to 11 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:46.799 be able to keep this pace. But more on that later. 12 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:49.119 For now, I want to go ahead and move into 13 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:52.920 this week's conversation. I recently spoke with Chris Jackson, who 14 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:55.320 has drafted a book that deals with the ideas of 15 00:00:55.399 --> 00:00:59.640 legacy and the hero's journey, which are definitely important issues 16 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:02.799 for me. I mean, who are we? What's in a name? 17 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:05.799 What is the context in which we lead our lives? 18 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:08.840 And how ought we to see ourselves within the bigger 19 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:11.480 picture of the world around us, as well as of 20 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:14.760 course within our families and the lives that they touch. 21 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:17.280 When Chris reached out to me to talk about this, 22 00:01:17.640 --> 00:01:19.799 I was really glad to set up this time to talk. 23 00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:35.319 And now let's go ahead and get to it. All right, 24 00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:37.879 Welcome back to Mythic Mind. Today, we're gonna be talking 25 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:41.879 with Chris Jackson, who is well at this point he's 26 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:45.519 drafted a book and I'm dealing with legacy and hero's 27 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:48.040 journey and all kinds of stuff that we often talk about. 28 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:49.840 And so Chris, welcome to the show. 29 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:52.560 Thank you very much for having me. Andre really appreciate. 30 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:55.159 It absolutely, and so I'd love to begin by having 31 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:57.159 you just introduce yourself, tell us little bit about who 32 00:01:57.159 --> 00:01:59.400 you are, what your background is, and what led you 33 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:00.000 in this direction. 34 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:02.159 Sure, no, thank you, Andrew. 35 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:06.319 I mean, I guess, you know, pre starting my career, 36 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:12.759 I I grew up kind of very much introduced by 37 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:18.479 my parents to the great myths and histories of our time, 38 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:21.199 I guess. So you know, I grew up very early 39 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:24.479 on with the fascination for Tolkien, the Lord of the Rings, 40 00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:31.000 some of the Greek myths. My parents are both very spiritual. 41 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:34.120 My my mother's a lay preacher within the Methodist Church, 42 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:38.759 so I have that kind of angle as well. 43 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:40.360 So again I grew up with a lot of C. S. 44 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:41.960 Lewis and the Narnia stories. 45 00:02:41.960 --> 00:02:44.560 When I was a kid, and I took a huge 46 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:47.000 amount of inspiration from those I just found like the magic, 47 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:49.919 the words, the underlying. 48 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:51.599 Themes just just spoke to me. 49 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:55.520 I guess I love them, and so you know, that 50 00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:59.159 kind of led again. My mother's a historian by training. 51 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:01.840 I did a history degree as kind of a result 52 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:04.960 and kind of following her footsteps. And when I then 53 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:09.719 got into the corporate world, I guess and started my career. 54 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:11.560 You know, I came into it with this great sense 55 00:03:11.599 --> 00:03:13.599 of Wow, this is going to be amazing. I can 56 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:16.800 really make a mark on the world. And I guess 57 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:21.759 I worked hard, applied myself, rose quickly, rose into leadership roles. 58 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:25.319 But throughout the whole period, you know, both for me 59 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:28.000 and colleagues around me, it wasn't particularly fulfilling. You know, 60 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:30.120 we'd always been brought up with this concept of success 61 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:33.759 and a need to kind of if you work hard, 62 00:03:33.800 --> 00:03:36.439 you'll be really successful, and you know that will solve 63 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:39.319 all your problems and things. But the further you got 64 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:41.280 into it, the more and more you realize that actually 65 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:44.479 most people who were successful, or just even working hard 66 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:49.159 towards success, are not very happy, the fairly miserable, the targets. 67 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:49.879 The life that. 68 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:53.000 You're leading is you know, it doesn't add any value 69 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:55.240 to be honest, even to the company quite quite often 70 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:59.520 a lot of the time. And so that kind of sparked, 71 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:01.159 you know, I kind of took a step back to 72 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:03.159 my roots, I guess, and started looking at, well, what 73 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:07.360 is it that people that really motivates people, and what 74 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.759 is it actually speaks to people? And by looking at 75 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:14.680 you know, or talking to colleagues, by looking at these 76 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:18.759 old inspirations that I'd had, and looking at some of 77 00:04:18.759 --> 00:04:20.279 the names through history, so well, what is it that 78 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:24.399 actually makes people remembered? And that kind of got me 79 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:27.759 down this path of looking at legacy and why legacy 80 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:32.079 is really rather than looking about yourself, it's about looking 81 00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:34.240 at other people and making a positive impact on others, 82 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:38.959 because ultimately, what a reality is nobody cares about your success. 83 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:41.759 Success is inherently selfish. You're just looking about yourself. 84 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:45.839 There's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it doesn't have 85 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:48.639 any value to anybody else. It makes no impact, it's 86 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:52.519 not particularly fulfilling. And yet the people who we remember, 87 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:55.600 whether it's Socrates through to Gandhi or Martin Luther King, 88 00:04:57.279 --> 00:04:59.759 they you know, they've really made an impact on what 89 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:03.519 they resonates, and you look back at you know, the 90 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:04.959 Lord of the Rings and things like that and why 91 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:06.680 that resonates, and you start to realize that there might 92 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:08.720 be a bit of a common theme there, and it's 93 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:11.839 not necessarily about the success, but it's about what they've 94 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:13.839 done for other people and that impact, and that kind 95 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:15.639 of let me down that path, I guess. 96 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:20.519 Yeah. I talked about this a lot with my students. 97 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:20.920 You know. 98 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:23.720 Right now, I'm teaching a course kind of intro philosophy 99 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:27.160 religion called Life, Death and Meaning, which is all about 100 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:29.240 how do you live a life of meaning with the 101 00:05:29.319 --> 00:05:31.319 knowledge of the fact that you're going to die? Right 102 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:33.759 that is the fate of all mortals. And so if 103 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:35.759 there's going to be a legitimate answer to that, if 104 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.519 we're going to say that life does genuinely have meaning, 105 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:40.839 and I certainly believe that it does, the question has 106 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:44.720 to be what is able to stand in the face 107 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:47.399 of death? What is the grave not going to wipe 108 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:49.639 out and whatever is left? I mean, that's where we 109 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:51.639 need to double down. And so it definitely seems like 110 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:54.480 you're you're moving in that kind of direction, and so, 111 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:58.639 you know, you've talked about you talked about success and 112 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:02.079 how a lot of people, I think, just don't really 113 00:06:02.279 --> 00:06:05.240 ask the question what does it even mean to be successful? 114 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:08.800 And so you kind of already hinted at it with 115 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:14.240 your intro, But how are you defining success? Or what? Yeah, 116 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:16.120 what is success? I just asked that as probably as 117 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:16.399 I game. 118 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:19.439 Well, and that's the that's the interesting thing because actually, 119 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:22.759 during you know, as I wrote my book, you start 120 00:06:22.759 --> 00:06:25.040 to see that success just means whatever you want it 121 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:29.560 to mean. And you know, I ask when I do 122 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:31.639 mentoring with people or when I when I talk about 123 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:34.120 this topic in general. Now I always ask people, will 124 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:38.480 you know, in today's society, if you become the CEO 125 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:43.319 of a major business, you're pretty successful, right, And they go, well, yeah, cool, 126 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:46.160 So how many Fortune five hundred CEOs can you name? 127 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:49.720 And the answer is almost none. So these people who 128 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:53.439 we kind of aspire to be, they're making no impact 129 00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:56.519 on us on a day to day basis. And then 130 00:06:56.759 --> 00:06:59.319 you can look at but the ones that they can name, 131 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:02.759 you know, might be Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Henry Ford. 132 00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:06.439 If you go back far enough there, you can argue 133 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:08.519 the toss about whether it was it's a positive legacy 134 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:12.160 they're building. But and again we can unpack positive and 135 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:15.680 negative legacies shortly if you want to. But the fact 136 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:17.680 is that they've made an impact on her lives because 137 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:20.560 they set out to do something bigger than just make money. 138 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:23.360 And then it's the same. You know, you can look 139 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:27.199 at CEOs and why we can name so few of them. 140 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:29.519 But then I'd also like to give you know, a 141 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:33.839 probably extreme example. Well, yet we all know Rosa Parks, 142 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:37.600 and Rosa Parks did a huge amount in terms of 143 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:40.160 her life. You wouldn't necessarily call her successful in the 144 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:44.079 traditional sense of the word. Yet she changed the world 145 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:47.319 by you know, an action on a bus. I mean 146 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:49.399 she did more than that, but that's what she's mainly 147 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:51.519 remembered for, I guess, or what she's most famous for. 148 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:54.560 And so success to me means whatever you want it 149 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:56.160 to be. You can wake up and say, yeah, I'm 150 00:07:57.519 --> 00:07:59.360 I had a successful day to day. I put my 151 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:02.160 clothes on so cessfully. But it's it's very personal. It's 152 00:08:02.199 --> 00:08:06.319 just what you want it to mean. Whereas I think legacy, 153 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:12.720 by contrast, is something that's lasting and it actually takes 154 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:15.560 it relies on other people. Other people have to see 155 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:17.800 value in it and have to want to pass it on. 156 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:21.160 And I think you mentioned it in one of your 157 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:24.240 articles or episodes back in April. I think it was 158 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:26.759 Andrew where you said, you know, for something to endure 159 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:28.480 for so long, it has to has more than simple 160 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:31.279 entertainment value. It has to speak to us on some 161 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.000 kind of deep level. And that to me is legacy. 162 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:35.320 Now. 163 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:38.440 It can apply across lots of different areas, you know, 164 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:40.360 if you're looking at from a business perspective or a 165 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:45.399 humanitarian perspective or a philosophical perspective, but it has to 166 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.279 resonate with people, and it has to has to be 167 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:51.080 something that people kind of feel at a deeper level. 168 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:53.440 I think, yeah, I think I think it's a good point, 169 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:57.320 and I like you emphasizes the fact that success divorced 170 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:01.879 from legacy really become self referential. You become isolated. And 171 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:04.480 I mean this is exactly how C. S. Lewis portrays 172 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:07.559 Hell in The Great Divorce, right. It's radical isolation where 173 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:10.000 even the home in which you live is nothing more 174 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:12.279 than a projection of your own thoughts. It doesn't even 175 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:14.360 keep out the rain. It's just sort of this illusion 176 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:17.720 of security. And that's really what self referential success only ever, 177 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:20.919 is it's a kind of an illusion of meaning. It 178 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:23.519 might be meaningful to you, but again you're still caught 179 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:26.399 up in yourself. You have to have that broader What 180 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:29.559 impact am I actually making in the world around me? Now? 181 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:32.799 I mean, obviously we don't see a lot of the 182 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:36.200 impact that our lives have, right that the majority of 183 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:38.919 our impact is going to happen after we die. That 184 00:09:38.919 --> 00:09:41.840 it's just as the things that we do reverberate throughout 185 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:43.200 time moving forward, And so. 186 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:45.159 How do we. 187 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:50.039 How do we create a positive legacy? How do we 188 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:53.600 work toward that recognizing that, like we don't know what 189 00:09:53.679 --> 00:09:55.480 the consequences of our lives are really going to be 190 00:09:55.639 --> 00:09:57.879 in so many levels, Like how do we keep that 191 00:09:57.919 --> 00:09:58.320 in mind? 192 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:00.799 Yeah, I mean it's a great question. 193 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:03.879 And I think the way that I've chosen to explore 194 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:05.759 it in my book, or the framework that I've given 195 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:11.200 is this concept of Joseph Campbell's hero's journey. And I 196 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:14.000 think I've chosen that one because it resonated with me 197 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:15.200 and I could make sense of it. 198 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:16.879 But I think also if. 199 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:23.440 You look at a lot of the great stories that 200 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:27.080 we love, you know, whether it's the Lord of the Rings, 201 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:30.720 whether it's Star Wars Harry Potter, or if you look 202 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:36.360 at something like the Odyssey Gilgamesh potentially, and then I 203 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:38.279 guess if you look into into scripture as well. You know, 204 00:10:38.519 --> 00:10:41.360 one of the more famous ones would be Jonah and 205 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:46.720 the Whale. But I use that as a framework to say, well, look, 206 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:50.879 there's a there's a these stories really resonate with us. 207 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:54.759 There's something about these stories that really speak to us 208 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:59.080 more deeply that you know, whether they're a fantasy story 209 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:02.320 like Lord of the Rings or whether they're a myth, 210 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:05.320 or even if it's a person's life. You know, if 211 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:07.240 you can take that arc, they really resonate. And so 212 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:10.240 why do they resonate? And so I kind of use that, 213 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:13.879 you know, backed up by a number of articles which 214 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:18.279 I cite throughout the book from modern psychology, even that 215 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:21.879 they resonate with us because there's something there that we 216 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.639 can and potentially should unpack ourselves and use to inspire us. 217 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:28.720 You know, the Lord of the Rings shouldn't just be 218 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:30.919 inspiring because it's a great store and it speaks to us, 219 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.960 speaks to us on that manner. The reason it speaks 220 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:38.639 to us in that manner to me is that there 221 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:41.240 is action that we can take through that, and I 222 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:43.879 guess the hero's journey kind of underpins that. 223 00:11:44.919 --> 00:11:48.159 Okay, Now, I'm sure a lot of people listening are 224 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:51.039 at least vaguely aware of Campbell and the hero's journey, 225 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:54.279 and I admit that I'm only aware through secondary sources. 226 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:56.519 I haven't actually spent a lot of primary time with Campbell, 227 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:58.480 And so can you just tell us what does he 228 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:00.240 mean when he talks about the hero's journey? I know 229 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:02.279 that's important for your book, So can you just kind 230 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:03.679 of give a summary or to kind of unpack that 231 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:04.080 a little bit? 232 00:12:04.759 --> 00:12:07.960 Yeah, of course, And again I'm I'm a real specialist 233 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:10.879 in Campbell, have not done any thesis or anything like that. 234 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:16.679 But essentially, Campbell wrote about this idea. His concept was 235 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:19.799 of what he called a mono myth. So it was 236 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:25.519 an idea that resonated. If you unpacked stories, religious and 237 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:30.080 otherwise from around the world, a lot of the most 238 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:33.759 famous stories and a lot of the key tenants within them, 239 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:37.120 you could ascribe what he called the hero's journey to them. 240 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:40.000 Whereby there was a start of a journey, someone would, 241 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:44.440 you know, potentially feel a call to action or adventure, 242 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:47.039 as he put it, they might resist that call. So 243 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:49.679 again with Jonah, you know, he calls it the belly 244 00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:52.159 of the Whale potentially where Jonah is refusing to do 245 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:55.480 what he's asked and he's kind of swept along anyway 246 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:01.759 through to what he calls a road of tryals. You'll 247 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:05.639 find a mentor who will help you, so you know, 248 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:07.759 again in the Lord of the Rings it might be Gandalf. 249 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:12.000 In Star Wars it would be Yoda, who will help 250 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:14.039 you kind of develop as you go, but they can 251 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:15.000 only take you so far. 252 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:16.039 There will be. 253 00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:23.039 Huge obstacles to overcome along the path, and then you 254 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:27.559 know there's a major challenge towards the end, there's a 255 00:13:27.559 --> 00:13:30.080 moment of transcendence and then you kind of come back 256 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:33.360 down to Earth. I guess to share the value of 257 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:36.399 what it is that you've that you've learned, and I 258 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:39.159 think you know again you you've kind of unpacked this 259 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:42.120 in certain episodes before, but you know, the task is 260 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:45.240 made to be difficult because it's only difficult things that 261 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:49.039 kind of inspire you to to really find out who 262 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:50.919 you can be and really push yourselves. And that's kind 263 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:52.519 of where the nobility lies. 264 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:57.200 I suppose yeah, and so that that monomouth idea, and 265 00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:01.600 it's basically this idea that that is the basic framework 266 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:06.639 of nearly any great story. Correct exactly, Yes, Okay, So 267 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:10.639 why do you think, like on the psychological level or 268 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:12.759 theological or wherever you want to go with this, Like, 269 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:16.320 why do you think that is the case that you know, 270 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:18.200 you can look at all these great myths, even from 271 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.960 you know, disconnected cultures, disconnected times and places, and this 272 00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:27.360 seems to be the basic structure of myth of a 273 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:30.679 good story. Why how do we account for that? 274 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:34.519 Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a really interesting question. 275 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:41.639 I mean, I think probably it comes down to something 276 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:44.919 that you say a number of times yourself, is like 277 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:48.600 that there's a there's a kind of a central truth 278 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:54.960 about that. People understand that in order to really live 279 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:59.960 a fulfilling life and to really grow as a per 280 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.960 and to add value and do something heroic, not necessarily 281 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:06.360 a sword wielding sense, but you know, kind of heroic 282 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:10.000 has in a kind of really valuable, courageous way for 283 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:16.559 society demand something demands you stepping out of your comfort zone. 284 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:20.279 And I think there's a real degree of truth within 285 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:24.799 that that just resonates with people a kind of spiritual 286 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:25.519 emotional level. 287 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:32.879 Yeah, you know it. As far as modern relatively modern 288 00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:36.679 psychologists go, I definitely appreciate young who plays a part 289 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:40.240 in some of these conversations, who would say that they're 290 00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:45.559 you know that basically the miss the Greek mythologies, even 291 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:50.720 just today modern stories, that they are really the sort 292 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:55.639 of like the waking dreams of the geniuses, right, the 293 00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:57.919 people who are able to make these great myths that 294 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.440 just as dreams, you know, they don't don't come from nowhere, 295 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:03.519 that they come from something. It's mostly our you know, 296 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:05.360 unconscious kind of working its way up and trying to 297 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:09.039 make sense of what we understand without understanding it, and 298 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:11.720 that in large part that's kind of what these great 299 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:14.360 miss are. So it's what Homer was doing. And so 300 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:17.840 when he's you know, spinning out these great miss he's 301 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.360 consciously or unconsciously sort of tapping into something real about 302 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:25.200 the human experience. Which is why these great stories of 303 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:27.840 the past indoor till to today and we can still 304 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:30.320 look back on them and recognize that there's something genuinely 305 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.639 true here. And this isn't something that I really understood 306 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:37.120 until I mean, relatively recently. The last few years. You know, 307 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:41.799 I was not in a voracious reader growing up as 308 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:46.240 a child. It really wasn't until I was nearly finished 309 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:49.679 my doctoral degree that I finally recognize that there's truth 310 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:52.440 in fiction, like I just as so like Indy dated 311 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:56.120 with this modern idea of well, fiction is just make 312 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:59.960 believe in non fictions true, And that's just that's just 313 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.759 a total misunderstanding as to what stories are, what literature is. 314 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:08.720 And so that realization I just shifted the whole trajectory 315 00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:10.960 of my life. And and so a lot of what 316 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:13.720 you're saying here I still consider to be like fresh 317 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:18.160 and exciting. Now you talk about that there are some 318 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:22.400 different pathways to legacy. I mean, obviously we aren't all 319 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:24.960 going to achieve the same legacy in the same way, 320 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:28.559 and so what are some some of these different routes 321 00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:31.839 to legacy or if it forms that building a positive legacy, 322 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:32.880 what can that look like. 323 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:37.000 Yeah, it's one of the things I talk about before 324 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:39.200 we kind of jump into that is a scale of 325 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.200 legacy as well. Right, A lot of people can't, oh, 326 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.440 I want to change the world, But you can leave 327 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:46.440 a legacy on your local community. You know, you can 328 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:49.880 leave a legacy on your family obviously, but you can 329 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:53.759 leave a legacy on your local community rather than having 330 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:57.440 to be national or internationally in scope. And a lot 331 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:00.440 of the time, you know, it's it's those small, humble 332 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:07.240 deeds that don't necessarily get noticed that far more valuable 333 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:13.599 than the greatest intentions that never get enacted. And so, 334 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:15.559 you know, one thing I would always encourage is, you know, 335 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:19.799 to think about the some of the architects of legacy 336 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:21.640 that I kind of will talk about in a second, 337 00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:26.240 but you know, they don't have to be huge grand ideas. 338 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:28.559 You can change the life of a person, you can 339 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:32.880 change the life of a group. And I think sometimes 340 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:35.599 people get too caught up on the grandiose and then 341 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:39.000 don't take any action, which is I think that the 342 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:39.839 biggest failing of all. 343 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:43.079 Right, yeah, and that's just I think, in many ways, 344 00:18:43.160 --> 00:18:45.079 the grain and I'm going to go change the world, 345 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:47.440 it's really just a way to you hide from our 346 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.720 actual immediate responsibility because we say I'm going to go 347 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:54.039 change the world. Well, that's such a grand objective that 348 00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:57.160 there's really no specific entry point, and so we don't 349 00:18:57.200 --> 00:19:00.720 actually do anything other than maybe rouse up some heroic 350 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:04.480 sentiments and you know, post something on Twitter, if you like, 351 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:07.599 wal accomplished something. But it's a lot harder to actually 352 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:10.920 just take care of your immediate responsibilities in the world 353 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:13.640 around you, which is how we're meant to live. Right. 354 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:16.799 We are localized creatures. We despite the illusions that we 355 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:20.119 get through social media, and you know, just the constant 356 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:23.160 connection we have to the world like we are local creatures. 357 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:26.079 We are not omnipresent. We are not omniscient. And so 358 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:30.400 the path of legacy, I agree, it starts with right 359 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:33.839 where you are, clean your room, put your life together, 360 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:36.640 take care of your immediate responsibilities. 361 00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:39.640 Well, and anything else then becomes just ego. 362 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:42.480 Really, if you set out change the world, that's that's 363 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:46.480 you and you want to look good as opposed to saying, well, actually, 364 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.720 there's a need here, there's a need there, And some 365 00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:51.319 people will have those grand ideas. You know, I want 366 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:54.160 to land on Mars, I want to create an electric car. 367 00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:56.440 Cool But a. 368 00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:59.680 Lot of the time did those didn't start out as well? 369 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:01.480 Bang going to make a rocket that goes straight to Mars. 370 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:03.640 There's still steps that have to be taken. And if 371 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:06.200 it grows, you know, if it if it's ripples in 372 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:10.440 a pond and out they spread superb but it doesn't 373 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:13.319 have to be that. And I think you know, to 374 00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:15.920 go answer your answer your your initial question Andrew that 375 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:17.359 the first step. 376 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:21.519 Is is courage. 377 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:24.559 Frankly so, and I guess to take a step back again, 378 00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:28.559 I'll talk about four archetypes. I'm not saying they're the 379 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:30.160 only ones, that they were the four that I managed 380 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:31.799 to come up with for the book. I'm sure there are. 381 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.759 You know, people will argue that I argue the value 382 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:37.200 of some of them, but some of them will overlap. 383 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:41.160 So I think from my perspective, if you have you 384 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:45.359 can leave a legacy with a single a single archetype. 385 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:49.319 But the more the more attributes you show or you're 386 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:53.160 able to to develop, the more likely you. 387 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:54.160 Are to leave a legacy. 388 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:58.759 In my mind, in in some shape manneral form. The 389 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:02.119 first one, as I say, is courage. And I think 390 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:05.359 without without courage, you're not going to leave a legacy 391 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:11.559 at all. Because the difference with legacy as as opposed 392 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:15.039 to success, which is why it's harder to leave and create, 393 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:19.759 I guess is that it needs to be different, and 394 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:23.240 almost by definition it takes some courage to be different. 395 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:27.799 And again, whether that's doing something crazy, physically brave on 396 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.440 a battlefield, or whether it's just doing something like Rosa 397 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:33.240 parks and refusing to give up a seat on a bus, 398 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:36.079 all of those things take courage. And I think the 399 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:41.039 what resonates with people first and foremost is often courage. 400 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:44.079 It's the courage to do something that other people know 401 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:46.960