Speaker 1: What is up, fellow sickos on Dampa Valley coming at
you with my co host Grant Hughes, It's time for
another round of We're just asking questions hashtag.
Speaker 2: As Grant said, W Jacks wja Q.
Speaker 1: You could find those on YouTube as we continue to
build out the series.
Speaker 2: Grant, what's our question this week?
Speaker 3: So the overarching question is should the Memphis Grizzlies be
done with John Morant? We're just asking questions, just asking
questions within this though, I have several sub questions. Would
you like me to dive into those after a short
introduction of why we're asking this question?
Speaker 4: To be in with yes, can you.
Speaker 1: Take us through why we're asking this question in the
first Yes.
Speaker 3: If you have been under a rock, if you're listening
to this podcast and are wondering why we're asked just
asking this question, you've missed a few things. It's kind
of all anybody's been talking about the quick and dirty synopsis.
John Morant kind of quiet quit in the second half
of a game against the Lakers this past week, and
head coach Twama Sisilo challenged Moran's leadership after the loss.
That's per Shampstrania and also per Sham's, Moran responded in
an inappropriate manner and was suspended for one game by
the Memphis Grizzlies. This has been kept mostly in house,
short of, at least on the Grizzly side, short of
Morant having a couple of postgame interviews where he basically
referred all questions back to the coaching staff, asked them,
ask them, asked if he had his usual joy when
playing basketball, he said no. Uh so that's where we are.
Have I missed anything major from the quick synopsis there,
That's why we're asking.
Speaker 1: The only thing I'll add is that if you look
at the Pistons game like the I feel like there's
been more quiet quitting than just the game that everyone's focus.
Speaker 4: Sure that there have been.
Speaker 3: There have been some intimations that made maybe this wasn't
something that just happened at halftime of the Lakers game,
where he that second half was very conspicuous. Everybody picked
up on it before the comments. But yeah, so maybe
maybe there's also some other evidence that the the let's see,
what would you call it if if if the second
half was quiet quitting, he was even more quietly quitting
it before that. There was some quitting going on, but
it was a whisper level.
Speaker 4: Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 2: And so it's coming back.
Speaker 1: He's not been setting the world on fire.
Speaker 3: No, has not set the world on fire. Has not
looked good, hasn't looked good all season. And that's that's
something to get into here, because one of the questions
we need to ask before we answer, not that this
is really about answers should the Grizzlies be done with him?
Is how good is joa Moran right, because that affects
your as a franchise tolerance for this kind of thing
that you know, your willingness to think about extensions, which
the Memphis Grizzlies were not willing to think very hard
about this past offseason for him. They gave Jaron Jackson one.
So the answer to how good is John Morant so
far very bad this season. That's that's a pretty straightforward one.
Thirty eight percent from the field, fourteen percent from three.
If you were doing All Star voting right now, he
would not be even a fringe consideration. That's independent of
what I think is fair to say is some crises
of leadership.
Speaker 4: If you care about that type of thing.
Speaker 3: Has not been a great leader for the Grizzlies to
this point, Just to rewind it a touch, we're measuring
this against like, his best year was twenty one twenty two, Right,
that's the twenty seven points, almost seven assists, forty nine
percent from the field, seventh and MVP voting one most
Improved Player that year. That's his only All NBA nod,
the only year he posted above average true shooting. Had
a career high fifty eight dunks that year. That's relevant
because his average shot distance tied to that was ten
point one feet. That has trended up steadily. He's up
to a career high distance of thirteen point six feet
per shot this season. So athleticism diminishing shooting was never there,
it's much worse now. It is fair Dan to say
that he is not what he was in that career
best season and hasn't really been that close to it since. Right, Like, So,
then the sub question to the sub question is, like,
is the All NBA jaw coming back? And maybe that's
where I'll throw it to you, Like, what do you
make of the decline? Is it a permanent downward trajectory?
How do we evaluate a player like him in terms
of like you know, because what we're trying to answer
is like, is he so good that you shut off
the discussion of should we trade him, should we move
on somehow because you can't do better? Or is he
in a level where it's like, well, I don't know.
We'll get to the other factors, but just as far
as him on the floor, where do you sit with
where he's at and what that means for this bigger
discussion we're having.
Speaker 1: This feels like almost a perma decline to where this
was someone who was and still can be super athletic.
But it doesn't feel like he's broadened his game nearly enough.
Looking I mean, he's not really any better on defense,
but specifically looking at offense, the shooting is a major concern.
I think he's probably still an underrated passer, and to
his credit, like the Grizzlies have a top seven offense
over the past half decade when he's.
Speaker 2: On the court. So this is a clear difference maker.
Speaker 1: And I think when you look at this season, look
at who he's playing around, like, what are the skilled
big men that he's supposed to be throwing the ball?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 1: Like is it Jock Landale?
Speaker 2: Like I don't.
Speaker 1: So does Zach Edy coming back eventually help him? Does
Brandon Clark coming back event eventually help him? And so
I'm sympathetic to the idea of, well, what would John
Morant look like with this team sort of at full strength,
But then I'm kind of talking about those bigs and
Clark's dealt with injury issues.
Speaker 2: If you want bigs who.
Speaker 1: Could catch the ball or catch lobs, that's not what
Zach Edi did well as a rookie. It's just more talent.
So I don't know how much. If I'm the Grizzlies
and they've all to be fair, they've already made like
their choice on this is you trade at Desmond bayin
you renegotiated and extended Jaron Jackson Junior. We didn't even
hear a whisper. This is the thing that stands out
to me. Nikola Jokic doesn't sign an extension with the
Denver Nuggets this past offseason. The chatter around the Nuggets
was they offered it, He's not gonna sign it because
he's gonna sign a longer deal next summer. You didn't
even hear whispers of the Grizzlies offering the extension for
which John Morant was eligible, or trying to negotiate with him,
or the talk of well, we're just gonna get him
next year when he can sign a longer deal. That's
a red flag in itself, and I don't necessarily blame
them for reaching this point because it comes back to
your initial question, which is how good is John Moran.
It's still relative to the rest of the stars in
the league, and I think that I think at best,
what you could say is he needs to string together
an entire season of looking closer to the player that
we saw three years ago or whatever it was before.
You view him as one someone you would trade everything for,
or two someone you want to continue to build everything around.
And we all know the baggage, injuries, whatever stuff happened
off the court. I think sometimes people sensationalize the idea
that they want to just believe he's a scumbag, which
is just sure, I'm not here for that. But like
when he got suspended, that was the first time he
was going to play in seven consecutive games for how
March twenty twenty three, I think Fast Break Breakfast had
that stat and like, you couldn't even get to that
milestone at that time without some sort of dramatics.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think and that aspect of it I agree.
Speaker 4: Like the the.
Speaker 3: Quickness with which some people want to just write him
off as like a bad actor. I think what you
can say definitively is he's made some really stupid decisions,
which does tie to the leadership aspect of it, which
does tie to how good is he. That's all baked
in because if availability matters, the tone setting you're doing
for the franchise matters. And again it's not like you're
a bad person. It's like if you're making stupid choices,
that's setting a bad tone as a leader for the team.
But so I think, actually, what you you led us
to the next question I want to ask, which is
what we need to give him some benefit of the doubt, which, so,
go ahead, you're gonna say something.
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is gonna step out that
to what you're gonna say. But if you were the
Grizzlies and you've decided that you want to move forward
with John Morant, is the entire idea that Jared, we're
trying to find a player now, we need to be
better than Jahn Moran or is that while you're already
Jaron Jackson Junior who this year, by the way, and
we've talked about this when we went through Pieter panic
with the Grizzlies, like Jaron Jackson Junior's role has changed
compared to last year. If you were paint touches like
fewer self creation touches. I wouldn't call it necessarily a
d emphasis, but just the byproduct of putting the ball
in John Morant's hands more. And so if you are
going to run that type of an offense and you're
the Grizzlies, do you need a player who is better
than John Moran and grizz and can John Moran play
next to a player sorry, play next to a player
who's better than John Moran?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 3: That that's this is another I wish I had thought of.
That sub question is like, so if you are like,
what does that mean for your team construction going forward?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: If depending on where the Grizzlies are with Jaw, I
want to get back to that. What I want I
want to make sure we do to be fair is hit.
The idea is kind of go We've talked from a
Grizzlies perspective mostly I think because like how good is he?
Speaker 4: Like all that stuff?
Speaker 3: Is John Moran justified and being frustrated because he hasn't
really given us a lot to go on, Right, we're
speculating there's been some reporting, So let's put it. Let's
kind of put things on his side and look at
what possible sources he might have for being frustrated with
what the coaching staff is doing, how he's being used,
maybe like to you, I think, if anything, he should
be frustrated by, like, look at the team that's around
me at the moment, because we've got so many key
injuries and you traded away Desmond Bane.
Speaker 4: So let's talk about role.
Speaker 3: Notably, he bristled at the total change in how the
offense ran last year. This is all like role touches,
playing time, This is all going to be kind of
a piece. First five years of his career, he was
a super high usage pick and roll guy. Last year
career low. The Grizzly stop setting ball screens back to
career high levels this year in terms of like, he's
gotten what he's wanted in terms of like as far
as like what he is doing offensively tons of pick
and rolls. Ky Cunningham and Trey Young the only guys
getting more pick set for them than Jaw so far
this year per possession touches basically way back up to
on the ball as much as anybody short of like
Jalen Brunson or last year Jalen Brunson, because the Knicks
have changed too tons of dribbles back to where he
was prior to the offensive change last year. Playing time
minutes are down, but he's never averaged thirty four minutes
a game, so to be around thirty isn't like a
crazy change. And you cided the durability issues, and I
wanted to bring up this comment from Twamas Islo, the
Grizzlies head coach, which goes to this point, and maybe
this is where Jaws is like, this is unsalvagable because
it does seem like the Grizzlies under Islo have a
very specific philosophy about how guys should be played. He
says basketball is evolving and the demands on the intensity
are higher and higher, and we're looking to also adapt
to the times. I think what's often forgotten is the
actual sub pattern. It's to optimize results in the short,
medium and long term. Now, he acknowledges that maybe what
you're sacrificing is chemistry. By shuttling guys in and out
a lot, by cutting minutes, certain lineups just get fewer
reps together your sacrifice. Maybe there's some other variables you're
not getting back. So it's a very measured but direct
not a response to Marant because this quote came from
from earlier, but it is a justification for how the
Grizzlies are playing. Everybody, not just Jaw, Like, minutes are
kind of down, so is I don't know, maybe maybe
that's frustrating to him. I want to talk about the like,
does Jaw not have enough clout, Like does he not
feel like he's being listened to?
Speaker 1: Could we start with the minutes thing that really quickly?
Speaker 4: Yeah, you go hit that.
Speaker 1: If you're John Rant and you mentioned the durability issues,
do you think that that's an actual core belief of
what the Grizzlies are doing right now or is it
more reaction to the person that look at who can't
stay healthy to or can't stay available. Joss had issues
Jaron Jackson Junior, where I didn't think he was gonna
be ready to start the season this year. So I
just wonder how they looked at their players and actively decided.
Speaker 2: No, we have to be run this way.
Speaker 3: Maybe to me that that quote and some of the
other things you hear and read about Memphis and Eilo's
philosophy is that I think my guess is they would
have adopted this regardless of personnel. Like, I think they've
decided that we just got to play guys less, well,
we will expect them to play harder and and you know,
whether that means more full court pressure, a faster pace,
just generally going harder for shorter spurts. I think they've
decided is the way to optimize the game. Maybe that's
going to be right, maybe that's wrong, But I do
think that's just kind of a philosophy that they have.
It does so happen that like because of their guys,
their key guys durability, Maybe it makes more sense. But
we talked about this off mic, and we'll step on
maybe what will be a longer discussion at some point
in the future, is the going way harder for shorter
stints actually a better way to preserve player health or
having them play larger, longer stints and maybe not go
like one hundred and ten percent all the time?
Speaker 4: Is that actually the way we don't We don't know.
Speaker 3: So yeah, so we're trying to find like we're trying
to I guess what I'm trying to do is find
justifications from rants frustration, and so what I'm kind of
pointing to is and to talk about Clout, to talk
about his contract. Definitely, the contract might be the lack
of extension might be like the blinking red light, like
you said, of like that's why he's pissed off. But
because he was unhappy with the offense last year, they
fired the assistant coach that brought it in, and they
fired the head coach that that implemented it. So he
still got Clout. The playing time, sure, but be durable
and maybe you play more. He can't complain about the touches,
can't complain about the style of offense. I guess he
could be upset by the lack of like healthy personnel
around him. But that's kind of irrational because like, well
that's just you know, that's not a choice that the
team is making. Guys are hurt, what are you going
to do? So I don't know it. You could definitely
find reasons for him to be justified in being frustrated.
I don't know if those rise to the level of
like you're the team's best player in theory and leader
and like face I guess for lack of a better term,
and you quit more or less like in an actual
game on the floor where everybody saw it, and you're
not really taking accountability for it. Bad luck, even if
you want to be charitable and say he's got reasons
to be upset. So then the question is trading him
really an option? Next sub questions. That's thorny, right, because
you've got a lot of like non basketball things to
consider with that.
Speaker 1: Right and with Memphis, I think people it's easy for
armchair gms like ourselves to just sit here and start
throwing out teams and packages. But I think there are
two things to really focus on here, and that is
one Jah Morant means more to Memphis than just a
basketball player.
Speaker 2: Like he is someone.
Speaker 1: This was someone if we were doing League Pass rankings
for individual players, how many years would he have finished
in the top five for us, even with the injury risk?
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, he's gonna put.
Speaker 2: Butts in seats.
Speaker 1: He's the name around which it feels like this error
was built, but it also kind of feels like they might.
Speaker 2: Be signaling they're going to move away from it.
Speaker 1: You also have to ask, does it make sense though,
to move him now when he's at the nadir of
his value. There was the report like I think it's
telltale in the reports from Sam Amic, from Jake Fisher.
There was even the ESPN roundtable either the hypothetical packages
being thrown out there. I think what ESPN said is
they can hope to get something like the Nets did
for Kyrie Irving, which really came out to be a
first round pick, and then whatever they turned Dorian Finney
Smith into, which was not he They didn't get first
round picks for Dorrian Finney Smith when they trade him
to the Lakers, and then the team names that are,
it feels like it's all speculation. It's not tam X
is interested in John ran. It's like, well, the Kings
are stupid enough to throw a bunch of stuff at Memphis.
But that feels like the level of analysis and if
you're the Grizzlies, So my definitive answer would be I'm
not trading John Morant because he is at or close
to Then the idea of his value when you look
at oh if if you can't trust him to be
a leader in the locker room or respond to coaching
criticism the right way, and then just to play on
the court. I mean, when you look at players who
have this season a twenty five usage rate or higher,
only Shad and Sharp, Jeremiah Fears and Trey Mann have
a lower points per shot attempt than John Morant. That's
not we could talk about. Well, think about what he
is at his peak? How long ago was John Moran's peak,
And I think that eventually opens up what we'll have
to touch upon is how much of this is actually
the Grizzlies' fault for maybe not reading the room and
understanding we needed to go harder, faster around this.
Speaker 2: Guy because of the type of style he plays.
Speaker 1: But if if you're the Grizzlies, are you even you
have to let me be clear, you have to entertain
it if a team comes and offers you a real package.
Speaker 2: But if you're the Grizzlies, you're not.
Speaker 1: You can't take the initiative and just put Even if
John Rant says he wants out, which does he have
the clout in your mind to even force his way out.
Speaker 2: But also you.
Speaker 1: Can't you're not operating from any position of strength here
at the moment.
Speaker 3: No, I agree, So there's a lot to unpack here.
One issue is, even if you believe from memphisis perspective,
and I don't know that it is, because like you said,
his value is certainly not at its peak. It's it's
much closer to it's to having bottomed out. But let's
say you're the Grizzlies and you believe that the best
move for the franchise is to trade him now, even
if just you're not gonna get much more than the
Kyrie package, which I pushed back on a little bit,
because Kyrie was gonna be a free agent. Jaw's got
two extra years on top of that on his dealshback.
Speaker 2: Right, is that cut?
Speaker 1: But also at the time, even though Kyrie did everything
within his power off the court to submarine the NETS's
title win, so there was a proof of concept on
the court for longer than.
Speaker 2: Ja Morant has delivered it. And so in a.
Speaker 3: Very different type of like, Kyrie Irving is above all
skilled and Ja Morant is above all athletic, and so like,
if you're trying to project what kind of player type
is going to age better. It was always Kyrie, right, Like,
that's that's got to be mentioned. But what so I
keep getting I keep going on tangents of my own making.
The issue is for Memphis, if you believe that the
best possible move is to trade Ja Morant, you might
still not be able to make that move because there
have been whispers that like relocation is in the ether
for the NBA, and New Orleans and Memphis are the
top two names on that list. Memphis lease on the
FedEx forum goes through twenty seven to twenty eight hasn't
been renewed. So if you're the Grizzlies, you have to
think about, is Ja Morant so important to the fan
base here and our whole operation that trading him means
were x percent more likely to not have an NBA
team here anymore? Like that's that's a factor. Now that's
more of like a Memphis concern than ownership or whatever,
because like you still get to be in charge of
the team, you're just maybe in Las Vegas.
Speaker 4: That's another thing. Maybe you do this to submarine the
operation so you get relocated.
Speaker 3: I don't know, but that's a that's a variable that
didn't exist for Brooklyn when they're trying to trade Kyrie,
didn't exist for the Heat when Jimmy Butler's making ways
like this is that's a that's a big thing to
have to think about. Is like there's potential for a
Ja Morant trade because of all we talk about and
when we talk to Keith Perris, it's just like Moran
is the most popular Memphis athlete, Like in however many
years you trade that guy, You're twenty sixth in attendance
with him, what's it look like without him?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 3: It sucks that that has to be a consideration, but
it does. I want to ask you, though, like do
you buy into this idea because I just said twenty
six in a that's terrible. And the Grizzlies have mostly
been pretty good with Morant, right, Like, They've had some
deep playoff runs, some fifty win seasons.
Speaker 1: And the home court is notoriously feels like one of
the better home court It's like it's.
Speaker 4: Not slightly live in there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a raucous environment, but apparently that's just like
a lot of people doing extra work because there's nobody there.
I don't know, it never feels that way My take
on that is if you trade Jah Morant, sure like
that could hurt attendance, that could make you a less
notable franchise. I would say, though, that what matters way
more than that is just how good the team is,
you know, in the next one to two to three years,
and if you're back to winning fifty games with somebody
other than Jaw, I don't think your attendance is going
to be worse than twenty six. I think fans will
show up if your team is good, like it's it's
kind of like, I don't know where the early two
thousands Detroit Pistons like a ton of fun to watch
when they're just grinding games out, Like their attendance was great,
like the it doesn't matter what's causing the wins. If
the wins are coming, I think fans show up and
they'll embrace whatever this new identity post Jaw is if
it's successful. If you trade Jaw and you're bad, then yeah,
like obviously things will be worse for you as a franchise.
But I'm not This is all a roundabout way of saying, yes,
it's a concern that, like you might get relocated if
if you trade jaw, but ultimately you're gonna do fine
if the team is good, whether you have Jaw or not.
Like that's that's what I come back to. I think
fans are fickle that way. It's not like, yeah, he's
iconic and you can't imagine the franchise without him until
you don't have him in as long as it's good,
you don't care. That's that's kind of where I land
on it.
Speaker 1: I would agree I would make the decision independent of
the relocation thing.
Speaker 2: And I also think.
Speaker 1: That the Ja Morant factor is overblown when it comes
to that discussion. Are we going jamrant is in his
age twenty six season? Do you think that relocation is
gonna be based off whether he's on the roster for
his age was that twenty eight twenty nine season, especially
when he's playing the way he is.
Speaker 2: I just don't.
Speaker 1: I don't buy that, And so you could, so then
we're you're And also you mentioned at the top that's
more of an ownership concern to where it's like, are
they they're looking at it from the perspective of like,
well could we get if they're gonna sell the team,
what could they get for it? Or if they're gonna
move the team, what do they stand to make? I
think that's a decision that gets made independent of John
Morant being there. Should be What you said, I think
is more salient is just what does it look like
after John Morant? Because it's gonna be bad for a while,
so you need to have the stomach for Maybe they'll
be a drop in attendance or interest, but if you
can build it back up soon enough, the Grizzlies fans
will always be there. Yeah, how do you ensure, like,
how do you ensure you can get to that point?
Because you can't trade John Morant? For there'd be two
variables here that you just get the godfather offer and you're.
Speaker 2: Able to it's easy.
Speaker 1: You have all these rebuilding tools, You're able to make trades,
you're able just to draft and develop.
Speaker 2: Or do you actually just believe that.
Speaker 1: Trading Moran doesn't as long as you're not actively taking
back to like terrible contracts, you're not actually hurting your
future as much because you've already put in motion. Well,
we're trying to not rebuild, but at least reorient ourselves
somewhat independent of him. When you look at what happened
with the Desmond Bine trade. I never once believed I
did believe that the Desman May trade was about flexibility,
but I never viewed it as a vote of confidence
of the organ like the organization putting in Ja Moran.
Speaker 2: It was never once that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree with that. I think.
Speaker 3: I think you also have to consider the idea that like, well,
if John Morant's gonna never play seven straight games again,
you know, and or when he's on the court, he's
this diminished version of himself, like what are we even doing?
You know, he can be as beloved as you want,
but it's just like addition by subtraction is too harsh.
Like if you just erase from the team and have
that open salary slot or whatever, I don't know, like
odds are you'll you'll use that on someone that's more durable,
but the highs won't be as high because underlying all
this is like when he's been healthy, which has been
or available, which has been rare, the Grizzlies are.
Speaker 4: Just good Like that just that is what happens.
Speaker 3: So it's it's hard to maybe we should just kind
of get into like potential packages or landing spots, which is.
Speaker 2: Like I ask one more question before please.
Speaker 4: Because that's the stuff I'm worse at.
Speaker 1: So so I think it's the stuff that people enjoy
hearing about the most, even if they want to. It's
rage bait, I suppose, but it's a fascinating exercise because
of how tough it is. But I wanted to ask
how much of this is on Jamrant bears a ton
of culpability here, But isn't this level of the Grizzlies
misreading the room on how they how aggressive they needed
to be when Jah Morant was what we thought was
an ascending star.
Speaker 2: It's I don't think you ever want.
Speaker 1: To operate as if, oh, this player could be gone
or out of his prime tomorrow at the same time
when you're dealing with someone who's just like this physiological anomaly. Yeah,
it's the same thing with the Pelicans and Zion, where
they spend so much time either trying to not even wait,
but like Taylor themselves to be as good as possible
even when he wasn't playing. It's if you have someone
like Jaw with his athleticism and you can't guarantee that
he's going to successfully adapt his and he's look, I
think what favors him is that he is a really
good passer, and so like there's as his athleticism continues
to decline, he will still have utility. But if you're
the Grizzlies we made fun of like their wing choices,
but the idea that like Zaire Williams at one point
was supposed to be like this big deal for them,
And yeah, I missed on Zaire Williams too. I want
to be clear, them never really going full bore and
like paying Jaron Jackson Junior, John Rant, Desmond Baine for
a little bit isn't full bore. That's not what full
boor is. And so they, I think bear a ton
of blame here too. To one, you also set the
precedent that John Morant can mope the way that he does,
or thinks that he has the level of agency in
clout within the organization. That was clearly a mistake. I've
seen a lot of kind of the defenses of what
he said, like, oh, like the tone of his comments
are like this is kind of always the same.
Speaker 2: That's a problem. That's not a defense, and.
Speaker 3: So he does this all the time. That's not that
you're not making a good argument.
Speaker 1: You've enabled this to an extent, and I'd be saying
the same thing if John Morant was considered a top
ten player in the NBA right now. Is I think
that's where our front office is supposed to come into play,
Is that you are supposed to figure out a way
to integrate these superstars. Yeah, they're gonna get special treatment,
but you can't let it run a muck to the
point where this type of these types of comments or
these suspensions are just they always looms. That's not an
okay status quo. So no, I just don't think the
Grizzlies are being blamed enough for and forget forget about
the off court stuff for a moment.
Speaker 2: The on court stuff of was it?
Speaker 1: I love Cedric Cowhard is amazing, and we talked about
him in our Piece of Paddock segment.
Speaker 2: Everybody go check it out.
Speaker 1: But like, what what was that Desmond Baying trade actually signaling?
If we were to compliment them, it's or they recognized
that they weren't good enough as currently constructed.
Speaker 3: Which we did, Like I think we made that point.
That was an acknowledgement that this Big three is not
good enough?
Speaker 1: Right, But why was like it was the well we're
gonna parlay this into like a very future focused package,
rather than you didn't go out and try and find.
Speaker 2: A way to upgrade the Big Three.
Speaker 1: What you did was, I don't even know what the
Grizzlies are on in Fury, one of the most if
you leave the roster as is, they're on one of
the most confusing timelines in the entire league.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, I think it's fair to blame management, ownership, whatever
for for all the reasons you said. I do think
though it's easy for us, it's easy for us, and
I'll just say me to leave you out of it.
But like to look at a player like Morant and say,
who gonna be a short prime? Like guys like this
that depend on athleticism, they don't last long, especially if
you can't shoot, which he never really has. Even that
all NBA season was like thirty four percent from three on, Like, eh, volume,
so easy to easy from outside. I think if you're
close to the situation and like say you drafted Ja
Moran or say whatever, you it's way harder to be
like we got to go for it now because this
guy's gonna fall apart tomorrow like that, Like it's just like.
Speaker 4: Cause you don't you won. You don't want to believe that.
Speaker 3: You want to think we got our guy, he's gonna
be good for ten years, he'll improve, And it's just
easier too to be like, well, I hope what I
want and what I hope for are like the same things,
which is to say Josh stays this good or continues
to get better all the way through his twenties were set,
which is kind of how everybody was talking about the
Grizzlies for a good chunk of time there of like well,
if you're got you're talking young cores, and like who's
got the best five year time horizon? There was a
minute there where Memphis was very much at the top
of that discussion, And it's because we all thought in
the same way that I think management tends to do
more often, which is like, we're not gonna forecast or
plan for the worst possible thing, which is Jahn Morant's
not going to be very good for much longer. Like
you just like, that's so hard to do, I think
from a close up like skin in the game stance,
and it's very easy for us far away to be like, yeah,
this guy's falling off.
Speaker 1: But isn't. There's also smaller gestures they could have made,
like not needing to use picks to dump salary to lower.
Speaker 3: The They fucked up a million like the transaction tree.
Speaker 4: We've talked about for years.
Speaker 3: Of just like you turned X into Y, and it's
just like it always how is X all of a sudden?
Speaker 1: It always felt like half or three quarter measures is
what I mean, Like the right the Marcus Smart trade
is probably the perfect example. It's where it's like, that's
kind of interesting, but the idea that he was what
they need, that's your big swing, and so like they
I just you're you're right, you probably and you shouldn't
have to forecast that John Morant would end up here
at the same time, even if you didn't think he
would does don't Fern offices just need to operate.
Speaker 2: With more urgency.
Speaker 1: In general, now we've had seven straight different NBA champions
and even windows that we thought were gonna be open
for a really long time. I mean, the Celtics are
an anomaly, and even Theirs kind of came crashing to
a point that no one was expecting with the Jason
Tatum injury. Look at the Pacers without look what happened
to the nets?
Speaker 2: Where's okay?
Speaker 1: Those stars were older, but didn't they You thought there
was gonna be two to three years of inevitability. They
didn't even get to two. So getting two trades? Are
there any I think we need to blow through the
cliche teams are the ones that are most mentioned. The
Atlanta John Morant Trey youngst we're just thrown out structures.
We're not gonna get into nitty gritty. The Trey Young
for John moranch alenge trade does absolutely nothing for me.
And if I'm if I had to pick a side
that should be less likely to do it, I think
it's Atlanta.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 3: I don't know that this is I mean, at the moment,
Trey Young, well, one he's injured, but two I think
I think he's still just the better player. So from
Atlanta's perspective, I don't. I don't know why, like John
and Daniels, is a rough combo. You need so much
shooting around those two, which maybe Atlanta has in theory.
Speaker 4: But but yeah, I don't. I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't love it for either side. I guess, like
I guess, maybe you you'd have to like it. More
from memphisis side. But then you just like, well, what
are we gonna pay Trey Young? He can just leave anyway,
you know, So that that makes that one complicated. But
kudos to you because that's not one that's not one
of the usual suspects that's got tossed out right.
Speaker 4: Away in the Moran speculation.
Speaker 1: The other two usual suspects. Let's get one out of
the way really quickly. I despise the idea, and this
is nothing to do with John Moran as a person,
but like Jah Moran and Houston makes absolutely no sense
and I cannot stress that enough as a playmaker. Sure,
but that team is even if they get away from dual,
When they get away from dual, big lineups, excuse me,
they're hard up for spacing John Moran aman Thompson outprints.
Like that's just no, that's that doesn't do it for me.
Speaker 3: The spacing and then the specific impact on Thompson, which
is like very different players obviously, but like if you're
getting more, if Marant's on the team, he's on the
ball a lot because he has zero off ball value,
at least especially lately. And what does that mean for
You're diminishing who we think, and Shan Gun's great, but
like Thompson's still the guy right, like if he if
he becomes the best version of himself.
Speaker 4: Me, Shanegun's been really good, but you.
Speaker 3: See what I'm getting A yeah, you're you're compromising Thompson's growth,
I think definitively because he's just off the ball a
lot more.
Speaker 4: Don't like it.
Speaker 1: I find it funny that the Kings continue to be mentioned, like, well,
maybe they would do something stupid. They just have they
have too many guards to think that. I know none
of them are actual point guards at this point. I
would say, if I'm Memphis, I don't hate the idea
of a Ja Morant like Sabonis trade structure, SA Bonus
and Jaron Jackson Junior together. I know you have Zach
Edy there already, but like.
Speaker 3: Playing around Zach Edy, you're not like making it right?
Speaker 2: What do you think?
Speaker 1: I think? I think when Sack was mentioned, it's they
want a pair jaw with Sibonis, and I just would
view that as almost looking at the point where job
Moran is at in his clear it seems like a
lower end it, or at least a riskier version of
Let's play darn Fox and the bonus together, and like
we have more evidence that Fox was doing more stuff
off the ball better than John Moran, and like the
defense would be worse, that's for sure.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, And just like I mean what it's it is,
you do have to mention the Kings because like, if
you're in the Russell Westbrook business, you're by definition in
the anything business.
Speaker 4: So like, yeah, this is an aside.
Speaker 1: Did you hear Russell Westbrook say that he opted out
of his contract because the Nuggets told him to they
didn't want him. I wonder why the Lakers didn't just
try that rather than having to trade him, trade him to.
Speaker 4: Utah that's all it takes. Yeah, by that money? Yeah,
pretty good?
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: I do like Sibonis and Jackson because Jackson does cover
up for the two core deficiencies, which are rim protection
and spacing. And you could play them together because Jackson
is fine out in space.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and contrary to how you feel about it, both
of them do space the floor technically.
Speaker 2: I know you're iffy on.
Speaker 3: The contrary to how I feel about facts.
Speaker 1: Now, but you know what the problem is there is
if you're the Grizzlies or you the team that is
having to give up picks in that situation, or do
you think the King's viewed from a proposition of well,
Ja Moran's peak might be higher and his contract is
technically shorter, so it gives them an out from a
mega salary sooner.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Sibonis is pretty beloved in ways similar
to Jah. I think I'm trying to decide which fan
base would be more upset by that if you just
called it a challenge trade, like a straight up one
for one. I don't even know if the money works,
but it's actually probably pretty close. I mean, the Kings
already don't have anyone that's not a guard, so just
like from a like I don't know what that roster is,
like Max Renoud starting at center all of a sudden
and Jaw is out there with like Levigne and DeRozan
and Russ and that, Like, I just don't know what
you're doing there.
Speaker 4: Uh yeah, it doesn't.
Speaker 1: I would say it makes less sense for the Kings,
but oh yeah, I just.
Speaker 3: You could though, like Devil's Advocate, if you're the Kings,
you can be like, we look at this, we got
we got the most exciting player in the league. Just wait,
now that he's happy, he's gonna be You thought All
NBA Third Team or whatever it was was something five
years ago, get ready like you could, you could definitely
brand yourself around him. Whether and that's whether that would
actually amount to anything like team success wise is an
open question, but that that's the case for it. But
you're also giving up a player that's like every Sabonis
is every King's fans favorite guy probably still.
Speaker 1: So I think the Kings fans would react. I don't know,
that's a let us know in the comments which fan
base would hate that trade more. I'm assuming neither of
them will like it. No, what about Minnesota has been mentioned?
They don't have a first round pick to trade, and
so if you're Memphis, who are I'm assuming I guess
you do? You want Rob Dillingham?
Speaker 2: Like, what do you want for Minnesota to ask part
of that deal?
Speaker 3: Well, you've got to, I mean, Minnesota is gonna have
to peel off some good players to make that work.
Speaker 4: And I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's like what os and what I mean? You throw
Aryn Shaddon junior there, he doesn't have the cleanest start.
Speaker 4: Does that get get you? That gets you close? Maybe?
Speaker 1: Like I mean it's McDaniels in the trade.
Speaker 3: Like, if you get a McDaniels, I think just like
you've really fundamentally changed your team as the Wolves, and
I don't.
Speaker 2: I mean at this.
Speaker 1: Point too, it's so then Anthony Edwards is just gonna
guard the best player every single night, is what's gonna
He's been doing more of that, but yeah, you don't
want him to do all of that?
Speaker 3: What and just the Jaw Edwards pairing, like what what's
that look like? Certainly the ball is out of Edwards's
hands quite a bit more, which, like I think one
of the things we've thought was wrong with the Wolves
is like Edwards has way too much playmaking responsibility. Can
you get a point guard? So if just from that perspective,
it's like, well we checked that box.
Speaker 4: But somehow I don't love the and I'm not sure why.
Speaker 1: And I think this is more of a fit thing
than about jos talent just looking at the Rudy Gobert
of it. And also what does it mean for juliet
a defense of John Moran and Julius Randall?
Speaker 2: What is that?
Speaker 1: And the Wolves have struggled enough on defense. I think
my hot take would be that Minnesota would be worse
if you did something like nas Read and Dante DiVincenzo
for John Morant.
Speaker 3: You'd love to know what version of Morant you're getting,
But we spent a lot of time here talking about
how like that all NBA version ain't coming back, So yeah,
I think I think you might be right on that front.
It's just like getting All Star John Moran.
Speaker 1: And is that even a package Memphis could even if
you're getting Rob Dillingham or a first round pick swap,
is that a package that you can sell to ownership,
to the fan base. It's because I'd be very curious
what because we went what they got for Desmond Bane.
You remember you and I talked about what's really awkward
is that if the Hawks put Trey Young on the market,
would they get as much for him as the Grizzly
It only takes one suitor. Would they get as much
for him as Desmond Baane? Couldn't you aren't we kind
of at the point where you could ask the same
question about John Morant. Of all the teams we've mentioned,
some of them don't have the assets, But I'll name
some other teams here too that could get in on it.
A lot of people have sided in Miami. Khalil Ware
and Jaron Jackson Junior could be interesting. They have some
contracts to maybe you're getting Kaimy hawkas out of that
to make it. We're like, is Miami with the I
think they have two tradeable first round picks or whatever, like,
are they coming in with two first round picks and
khalil Ware and salary for John Morant?
Speaker 3: I mean, well, if they if Miami wasn't running the
Noel Laroche offense that John Morant hated so much, that's
a really good to entertain that option. But well, some
of the packages we're throwing out are like, that's worse
than the Kyrie return, And we kind of got got
to the idea of like, well it's kind of different
because of the athleticism decline and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: But if well, you we didn't really put So, if
you're Memphis and you're trading Ja Moran, are you you
want more of a picks and prospects prospects package or
is it like a Nase read Dante's evencenz. I'm not
saying that's all it needs to be, but your team
probably liked I don't know who's running your offense. You're
hoping Scottie Pippen is is healthy. You do have Cam
Spencer is having a pretty good year tied to Rome
once he's healthy.
Speaker 2: But what are you what are you prioritizing?
Speaker 3: I sort of think if you're trading John Moran, it's
the second step in the Maybe it won't be a
three step process because step three would be trading Jackson.
I think you could just hold on to him because
he'll fit in like most constructions you want to pursue.
I think it needs to be more of a picks
and prospects thing, because if you're trading Moran, you're acknowledging. Okay,
we tried it with this group.
Speaker 4: We moved Baine.
Speaker 3: Let's move him like we're are they a playing team
at the moment? Like who are you swapping in there?
That elevates you to like the top four in the West,
which should probably be the goal if you're going for
like let's get someone into hell now. So I think
it is a picks and prospects move, which would be
in keeping with the Bain trade. Like that's what you
did with the Bain trade. You got optionality, flexibility, cost, control,
young players, all that stuff. Why would you It would
feel kind of disjointed if you prioritized, let's get someone
in that's we think is better than John Morant today
to build the team.
Speaker 4: Like, I don't know how that works.
Speaker 1: Well, there's a twofold question here is one. I don't
love the fit, but like, if you could just get
him for the twenty thirty two first round pick and salary,
eventually we're able to get there. Does Milwaukee have any
interest in bringing in John Morant to or is it
just Ryan Rollins is better?
Speaker 2: I'm kidding. I'm kidding, all right, probably, but.
Speaker 4: I hate the honest jaw fit.
Speaker 1: Don't you don't love it? Like, but here's the other
side of that. You're talking about, how hard would it
be to upgrade from Ja Morant if you're the Grizzlies.
What if this offseason or maybe it's by the trade deadline.
But Giannis's bald, he probably would MVP.
Speaker 2: I think if he said today.
Speaker 1: He wants out of Milwaukee, Milwaukee doesn't control. It's the
first round pick again until twenty twenty, twenty thirty two,
whatever it is, and you do Jaw Morant, all these
picks and like anyone who's not Cedric Coward and Jared
Jackson JUNR.
Speaker 2: Is that like a move or is that too.
Speaker 3: You need every possible if you're like if I guess
at that point, Moran's like matching salary right like that.
Speaker 4: At that point, it.
Speaker 1: Is Milwaukee viewing him as well, yeah, we'll take a
flyer on someone who will put butts in seats since
we don't have her and we're entering this Postona's phase.
Speaker 3: Maybe as yeah, like this will tide us over for
a year or two, and what we really wanted was
the picks so we can properly rebuild. But this might
be okay for a minute, like sure, and and the
Jaw Turner fit is fine, Like that's that's pretty close
to the jawj Aaron Jackson fit that was effective. I guess,
I just it's this is really hard, Like this is
why he's probably not getting traded, because there's just like
I don't I don't see the destination. He's like one
the team that needs him desperately and was one.
Speaker 1: Of gill that he could play off Kyrie, but that's
just right now, he's like you almost need Kyrie for
John Moran to make sense on Dallas, and at that
point it defeats the purpose.
Speaker 3: There was probably a time where we would have mentioned Orlando,
and I just don't think that's remotely realistic now.
Speaker 1: John Desmond bathing it worked.
Speaker 4: Do you have any other teams before we put a
ball on this, some.
Speaker 1: People mentioned Toronto.
Speaker 4: I hate that fit, like Barrett and Quickly or something.
Speaker 1: They have the money, Yeah, and it's just with him.
With Scottie Barnes, I don't love, and I don't think
you could also look at are there organizations that might
buy medium on him and think they could reboot his
value or a team that's not good now but things
it might like I might make the leap soon. Washington's
not going to go after John Moran. I don't think Brooklyn,
even with its next year's first round pick going to Houston.
I don't think they would be in on John Morant.
And that's what I think is tough and why we're
at this point where we agree that I don't trust
Memphis's vision right like they just seem there's a duality
to what they're trying to do that I don't think
is gonna work. But I don't believe that trading John
Morant unless you believe that he is so much of
a malcontent behind the scenes that he is torpedoing development,
the locker room, all of this. I just don't know
why you would move him now. At the same time,
I recognize that there is an awkwardness because to me,
this is just me reading between the lines. You made
it very clear over the offseason that he is not
necessarily priority number one. I don't think that even if
they were trying to restructure themselves, like to say, oh,
we're not trying to blow it up, We're just trying
to reorient or recalibrate our timeline, it felt more like
an investment in Jaron Jackson Junior is a mainstay than
John Morant is a mainstay.
Speaker 3: I think the last thing I'd say is what you're
talking about is a little bit of a chicken or
egg thing. Is like, is John Morant playing this way
and acting this way because he did not get a
commitment in form of an extension or did the Grizzlies
not offer an extension because they had a pretty good
idea that John Morant was going to play this way
and act this way, you know, so like I We're
just we're juggling the blame. But like I do think
from the Grizzlies perspective, I wouldn't have extended him either,
That's right, Like so I don't know, like who's actually.
Speaker 1: It's is it even that question? Because I'm with you
that I wouldn't have extended him. But if you were
actually invested in John Morant, the only reason to actually
not offer or talk about the extension again to me
is because you're afraid he's going to sign it, Because
isn't isn't that the whole It's like you, it's kind
of a formality, but you do it anyway. And the
fact that they didn't leads me to believe that they
were afraid had they offered it to him, that he
would have put pen to paper on this.
Speaker 3: And and and we're saying that's the right decision. They
were right to be afraid, right, Like, so, I don't
know what you have.
Speaker 1: To mean that this is over. Maybe maybe this situation
resolves itself. But my closing thought on this would be,
we do kind of know how this is gonna end.
I would be fairly shocked if this is like John
Moran is in Memphis for another two seasons. I don't
know what's gonna become of this season, but we've just
we've seen this movie before. A lot of this does
feel like it's out of the team and Superstar depart
typical script.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 1: I also just I don't see how that ending comes
about though.
Speaker 3: Right well, we're just asking questions, tessing questions, didn't provide
any answers.
Speaker 2: Do you want to take us out of here?
Speaker 3: You just asked me a question. Good way to keep
with the theme. Thanks everybody for watching, for listening. Let
us know what you think this is.
Speaker 4: If any if ever there was.
Speaker 3: A time to comment and and get in on the discussion,
it's when we just ask questions, because you can provide
us with answers. H do that on discord link for
that in YouTube and podcast description.
Speaker 4: Do that here in the comments on YouTube. I don't know.
Speaker 3: Write us of a snail mail letter if you want.
Speaker 4: You don't have an address for that, Just just.
Speaker 3: And owl post whichever you want to use however you
want to shouts Franklin Lookino followed this jar and Allen
Speaker 1: M HM