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Speaker 1: Thousands of people have mysteriously vanished in America's wilderness. Join

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us as we dive into the deep end of the

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unexplainable world and try to piece together what happened. If

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you are listening to Locations Unknown.

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Speaker 2: What's up, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of

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Locations Unknown. I'm your co host, Joe Erato, and with

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me as always as a guy who when he eats strawberries,

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just rips off the green part and the leaves and

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eats the rest without even cutting the small notch out

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first Mike Vanabogar, Wow.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Joe, thank you for that intro. Do you

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know what I'm talking about? I do? Do you just

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you cut the little match out right? I just cut

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the top, the top off, the whole top. Yeah, no,

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you don't. You just rip the leaves off and eat

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the whole thing, and you'd even leave a little behind. Well,

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I do it wrong, man. Yep. Thank you was a

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bad one. That one was bad. I can't have all

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good ones.

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Speaker 4: No, but thank you once again to all of our

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loyal listeners for tuning in. We've got Andy back in

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the studio again.

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Speaker 3: We welcome back Andy.

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Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 4: For doing another episode on Gwen, supposed to be the

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fourth episode. If you have not listened to the first

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three episodes, I encourage you to go back to episode

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one and just work your way through all of our

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episodes and you'll eventually get to them. So a couple

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of Patreons supporter shout outs. We've got Crystal Haverfield, Clorinda Lenderos,

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Jackie Ryan, and Kristin Irvin. So thank you so much

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for supporting the show.

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Speaker 2: Quick.

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Speaker 4: We've got a special birthday shot out. So a friend

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of the show, her husband is a little under the weather.

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His birthday is this Saturday. We just want to give

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a special locations unknown happy Birthday to Edwin Ham.

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Speaker 3: Happy Birthday, ed Wine. Hope you feel better? Yeah, I hope.

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I hope.

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Speaker 4: I said that right, And I was thinking, like we

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should have done something like they did in the movie

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Waiting where they come and sing a really bad version

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of Happy.

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Speaker 3: Birthday, scream at the kid.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but we're not gonna do that Happy Birthday regardless.

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Big news for the show, Joe, Big news. Between our

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last episode, we hit five hundred thousand downloads.

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Speaker 3: Oh rom button, I don't I don't have a button.

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For this just a just.

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Speaker 2: Oh, but I don't have any any like clapping button.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a pretty big milestone for the podcast. So

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we're going to do a cheers to it, and I

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encourage everyone listening at home to grab a drink if

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you're not already grabbing on Joe, can you poor us?

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Speaker 2: Yes, some of this Jay Henry and Sons Wisconsin straight

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bourbon whiskey.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Like I said, it's a big accomplishment for us.

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Speaker 4: Joe and I never thought we would ever get to

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five hundred thousand downloads.

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Speaker 3: You know who else didn't think that? Kleidus. Yes, eat it.

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We don't even edit our show and we ain't changing anything.

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Cheers to that. Guys. You're part of this too now.

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I've been on several you brought us this case.

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Speaker 4: So cheers and so hopefully all of you at home

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just took a drink and it's not you know, it

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would have been possible with everybody at home listening and

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a quick little jab at Kleatus if you're on our

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Facebook page. We got a really amazing review from a

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gentleman that goes by the name Kleaidus, and it was

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so funny we had to post it, and if you

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want to hear our real reaction to that, we're gonna so.

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Speaker 2: We shouldn't read it now, no, no, no, okay, we

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won't even read that one.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 4: So we're gonna do a Patreon only episode right after

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this where we're gonna go through a bunch of reviews

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we have and give our comments on them and good

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and bad, good and bad, and kind of counter some

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of the stuff they're saying, including kleatus.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Andy's gonna join us for that, Yes, can't wait.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, if you want to hear that, you got

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to join Patreon. It's only five dollars a month, so

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very cheap, and you'll get a bumper sticker out of it,

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and you'll get to listen to I think we're up

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to twenty six or twenty seven Patreon only episodes, and

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this episode will actually come out on Patreon tomorrow, several

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days early, so you get that too.

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Speaker 3: That's good.

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Speaker 4: Finally, to wrap this up so you can get right

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into the episode, We've got some new shirts out on

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our Facebook store for the ladies that listen to the show.

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We'll get other shirts out there as soon as we can.

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It's just a lot of work to get it set up.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, textiles are not easy. We've found you've like

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either do drop shipping, which is noisy the greatest, or

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we have to wear house yeah shirts where we're still

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trying to get a studio, so we're not going to

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be werehousing merch.

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Speaker 3: Finally, if you is that our number there, Joe.

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Speaker 2: If you want to call and complain kleid us, I

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would prefer you call in person.

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Speaker 3: We want to hear your voice.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I want to hear what kleatus to slash chawed

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yokel sounds like. The number is two zero eight three

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nine one six nine one three.

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Speaker 4: Oh and Joe, I wanted to ask you before we

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get into the episode. You've got this amazing looking looks

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like a pool party shirt on.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell us at a little about that is?

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I didn't mention the shirt.

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Speaker 2: I'm wearing a shirt with pineapples with sunglasses on I

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was going to I bought the shirt specifically for party

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that I'm no longer going to for whatever reason, and

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it's just.

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Speaker 3: Pineapples with sunglasses, so it could be like my new

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show shirt. I don't know. Yeah, it's a beautiful shirt.

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I like it. We could all just start wearing shirts

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like that. Ooh, I like that idea.

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Speaker 4: Just change shirts every time I thought I had something

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else to say. But people will leave reviews that we

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talked too long.

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Speaker 3: So you mentioned our Patreon, yes and all the other things. Yeah, Joe,

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tell us a little about what we're about to listen to.

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Speaker 2: So this is the interview with Gwen's stepsister Dora, And

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if you listen to the last interview, we got a lot

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of new information. We've now we were talking about it

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before the show started. We've kind of upgraded from being

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reporters who were just finding the information and doing the

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foyer request, and now we're interviewing the people who were

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there on the ground live experiencing this.

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Speaker 3: So you're getting a.

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Speaker 2: Whole nother dimension of this, the people, the feelings, the emotions,

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the things that they were going through. So it's Mike

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and I and Andy up into that point where just

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making assumptions about what we thought based on the data

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that Andy got us because he did most.

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Speaker 3: Of that research work. That's all Andy, that's why he's here.

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Speaker 2: And it was really unique to listen to the individuals

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who were there dealing with it, going through the pain,

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the agony the loss of their friend, their family member,

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and they reached out to us because we were spot

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on in what we were the path we were going down,

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and they all agree and they wanted to come out

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and reaffirm what we're doing with the case and make

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sure that this doesn't go cold, that we can keep

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this thing alive and do Gwen some justice hopefully.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, was that Was that a good overview?

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That was good?

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Speaker 4: Okay, So we are not going to interrupt during the interview.

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We'll jump back in at the end and give our

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thoughts about what we heard. And this is the first

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time Andy's hearing it, so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you are listening only, we'll have Usually

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it releases a little bit later because there's a lot

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to do with the video. In the last interview, we

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had stuff pulled up for locations, so what I'll try

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and do as it's going live, I might be searching

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stuff up that you will be able to see. So

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I highly recommend listening to it, but also going back

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checking out the video because we'll have some source documents

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and things that we've received that we feel are appropriate

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to show on the show, and we'll just take it

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from there. How about you introduce yourself to the audience

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and tell us your relation to Gwen.

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Speaker 6: My name is Dora, and I am Gwen's sister. Although

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we are not sister by blood, it was through marriage

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we grew about as sisters.

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Speaker 2: We talked to her friend yesterday, and I know you're

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still close with her and talking about this case. What

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we want to get from you is a timeline from

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your perspective of events leading up to the day Gwen

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supposedly committed suicide.

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Speaker 6: So I was re entered in Gwen's life approximately seven

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weeks before she passed. I had disconnected a little bit

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for twenty some years, and then we reconnected.

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Speaker 7: Immediately, met, talked, our families.

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Speaker 6: Had met my daughter and I went up to visit

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her and Eric and the children for dinner and spent

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some time.

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Speaker 7: With them, and.

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Speaker 6: It was everything seemed to be normal in my eyes,

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perfect family situation. My step son told me that they

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seem like real legit people. And mind you at the

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time eighteen and it you know, I would have never

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have thought anything like this would happen. And in the

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middle of the night I received a text which I

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didn't read until I got up in the morning, and

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it was probably like four o'clock and it said have

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you heard or have you heard from Gwen? And it

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was a text message from Eric and I said, what

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do you mean? Have I heard from her? What's going on?

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And then I just immediately called him and he told

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me when left last night, she's missing and search and

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rescues looking for her. I immediately said, okay, I'm on

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my way. He said, no, no, don't come, we don't

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know anything. My reply was, clearly, you're telling me my

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sister is missing and I'm not coming. I'm on my way.

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I mean immediately, my daughter and I packed an overnight

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bag and we've left. It takes us about three hours

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to get there. We arrived and it was just like

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very weird. When we entered the home, it just you know,

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the behaviors was weird. I don't even know how to

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explain it, but we, you know, we just like waited.

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I thought, hey, somebody's here to take care of my kids.

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I'm going to go look for my wife, or I'm

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going to go and speak some answers. I mean, this

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is a huge bridge, and there was none of that.

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It was just like waiting and talking kind of like

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reminiscing of when we first met, or when he and

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her first met and talked about a table that they

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bought and she's very odd things. And we received a

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phone call that they were going to end search and rescue.

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They were going to send us a PowerPoint and then

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they would call us back and we would go over

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the PowerPoint time that they had this. He was laying

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on the ground and I'm like looking at the.

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Speaker 7: Power point and it was for real.

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Speaker 6: I asked at the end of the power plant, I'm like,

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what do we do from here? I don't understand what

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do we do? And he said, wait, there there will

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be contact from I think he said the police or

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a detective or whatever. And this is the.

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Speaker 3: Person in charge of the search and rescue is telling

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you this.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yes, yes, And so then we did just that.

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I had my daughter try to play with the children

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and talk to them like them. Now. I lost my

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mom at a very young age, different circumstances, but so

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I'm relating all around here and it was very just

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very odd. He took, in fact, Jack Daniel's bottle off

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the refrigera and said, Gwen want to approve of this? Would

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you like a shot with me, and I was just like, oh, yeah, sure.

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First of all, I'm not a big drinker. I took

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a sip and I'm like and then he finished his

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class in my glass. Now to me, I'm like, I

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just was told they quit looking for my wife. Okay,

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I can relate. But then as the day went on

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and he drank, and I still was not putting two

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and two together. I had no contact with anybody. I

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didn't know any of her friends. I didn't know, you know,

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in their neighbors, and they kind of live secluded and.

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Speaker 7: It was just very weird day.

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Speaker 2: So were you unaware of the domestic issues that were

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occurring at all?

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Speaker 6: Like I had no. I had no clue. Okay, yeah,

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no clue of anything. In my eyes, in those seven weeks,

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everything was okay, you know, no complaints. He went away

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on business trips, came back, the children were in piano

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and ballet and baseball, and there was no clue of

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anything whatsoever. And they had just recently moved into their

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come so it was to me it would have been normal.

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But my daughter had told me that the little the

253
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daughter had said to me, or sorry said to my daughter.

254
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There was a bloody knife and some tissues on the

255
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counter the dad dad cleaned them up, and I was like,

256
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wha wait what And she didn't tell me this until

257
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we were on our way home the following day, and

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you know, I mentioned that to the detective and whatnot.

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But you know, it now explained a lot how apparently

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there was a cut on her left arm and how

261
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she was holding her arm in the video. I believe

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the detective said it looked like it had been cleaned up,

263
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so that makes sense. What happened, I don't know. I

264
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do know that the day the day of, she had

265
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text me and she said, I haven't been feeling well,

266
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going to the er.

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Speaker 2: And this is Gwenn texting you, like, what was that

268
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March nineteenth?

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Speaker 6: No, it would I would have to go back and

270
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look it would have been I believe the twenty. It

271
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would have been the nineteenth or the twentieth. I would

272
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have to go back and look at the exack date.

273
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But she said she was going to the er and

274
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I was like, please let me know. Do you need anything?

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I said, I don't care what it is, I will

276
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come up there bring it. She said, no, Eric. I

277
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sent Eric to the store to get what we needed

278
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in case we have to quarantine, and later to find

279
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out that she didn't want to go to the hospital.

280
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According to what the kids said to me, the dad

281
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made mom go because she wasn't feeling well. I don't

282
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know the test results. I've never seen them. I'm sure

283
00:15:16,919 --> 00:15:20,679
the detective has them. I've inquired. He hasn't told me

284
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physically if she did or did not have COVID. But

285
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she did have an autoimmune disease called Throne's disease, and

286
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from what she told me that it was not that

287
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it was getting better, but she was feeling better and

288
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her medication has been decreasing. So she was working with

289
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some doctor there in I don't know if it was

290
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in Seattle, I believe, but anyway, and then the last

291
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text message, I just said, please let me know if

292
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you need anything. She told me she was home, she

293
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was going to go to bed. She was really, really tired,

294
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and I unfortunately my last words were to her that

295
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I like the idea of you taking an app and

296
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resting and text me when you know when you're feeling better.

297
00:16:11,919 --> 00:16:14,480
And that was that was it. Then it came his

298
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:19,120
text message lator that night, and then the unfolding of

299
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everything thereafter so.

300
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Speaker 2: You'd mentioned when you arrived at the home after you

301
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,240
said you were coming there that you felt like Eric

302
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,200
wasn't acting completely normal. Was there a point in time

303
00:16:30,759 --> 00:16:32,759
from the point when you got there too, as all

304
00:16:32,799 --> 00:16:37,000
this was unfolding, where you maybe started thinking that there's

305
00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:38,000
something else going on.

306
00:16:40,519 --> 00:16:43,600
Speaker 7: Well, you know, it was really interesting throughout the whole day.

307
00:16:43,879 --> 00:16:44,919
I you know, I just.

308
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,799
Speaker 6: Was watching the behavior I would have if my husband

309
00:16:47,799 --> 00:16:50,000
were missing at would have been crazy out there. You're

310
00:16:50,039 --> 00:16:53,320
here with the kids, I'm going But there was none

311
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:58,279
of that. Behavior just kind of lacks the daiscle about everything.

312
00:16:58,759 --> 00:17:01,519
He At one point, we were all sitting at the

313
00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:05,240
table and my daughter said, Mom, the police are here.

314
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And this is later in the evening, and I said,

315
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take the kids to the room. And Eric went outside

316
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and he was holding their dog, and I followed him

317
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and I grabbed the dog out of his arms and

318
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put it in the house. And the clergyman said, is

319
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,759
this Gwendolen house? Request house? And he said, yes, sirs.

320
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,640
And now mind you why he was while he was

321
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:34,519
saying this, he had his hands in a praying motion

322
00:17:35,279 --> 00:17:39,839
and he was kind of shaking, and the whole time

323
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He's like, yes, sir, Yes, sir, thank you, sir, yes sir.

324
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:47,680
And I am just looking like at him expecting to

325
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,480
pick him up that he was going to fall, and

326
00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:56,519
it was really weird. They left and he goes into

327
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the house and they have this big bookshel along the wall,

328
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,240
and he just started kissing his fingers and touching the

329
00:18:05,279 --> 00:18:08,920
pictures of hers and saying why why, And he would

330
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,880
slip the pictures over after he would do that, and

331
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,920
every picture that it had of her in there, that's

332
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,160
what he did. And then he just laid on the

333
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,799
floor and he's.

334
00:18:20,599 --> 00:18:24,000
Speaker 7: Like why why, And it was like kind of.

335
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,519
Speaker 6: A scary moment. I wasn't sure if I was going

336
00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:30,319
to have to call nine one one for help or not.

337
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And then he just got up and it was the

338
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remainder of night. He just talked about reminiscing, and I

339
00:18:39,559 --> 00:18:42,440
told him, I said, Eric, these children have been through

340
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,240
something tragic today. We need to have a conversation with them.

341
00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,799
They you know, they're not comprehending. And he wanted to

342
00:18:51,839 --> 00:18:56,000
do that alone. So you know, at this point, I

343
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you know, I wasn't thinking anything. My daughter and I

344
00:19:01,079 --> 00:19:05,400
had left and then we had come back, and I

345
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,960
don't know what he said to them, how he said

346
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,799
it to them. We stayed the night. That night, the

347
00:19:12,839 --> 00:19:15,920
little girl slept on the fold out couch with my

348
00:19:16,039 --> 00:19:19,039
daughter and I and in the middle of the night,

349
00:19:19,079 --> 00:19:24,839
my daughter she's like, Mom, she said, I cannot sleep.

350
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She said, I can't sleep. I thought that he was

351
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,759
going to hurt me. But backtrack after Eric must have

352
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,559
drank so much that I didn't see that he was

353
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passed out on the couch. And I looked at her

354
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and I said, do you think he had anything to

355
00:19:41,759 --> 00:19:44,920
do with this? And I nodded over to him and

356
00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:48,000
she said, oh, Mom, I watch enough shows that they

357
00:19:48,079 --> 00:19:53,359
always say the husband did it, And you know, it

358
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,079
was just why I felt that way. It was his

359
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,480
behavior that whole day leading up to this, and now

360
00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:06,279
I had time to sit and process, and yeah, I.

361
00:20:07,799 --> 00:20:11,599
Speaker 8: It was very interesting. It's interesting you said that because

362
00:20:11,799 --> 00:20:13,359
Don had mentioned and we kind.

363
00:20:13,279 --> 00:20:17,440
Speaker 6: Of agreed with her that he to us.

364
00:20:17,079 --> 00:20:20,559
Speaker 8: He really seems kind of like almost like a sociopath.

365
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,440
He's able to turn emotions on and off at like

366
00:20:23,559 --> 00:20:25,960
a drop of a hat. And when the you know,

367
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,079
like Joe and I were talking with Don, the cops

368
00:20:29,079 --> 00:20:31,240
showed up and said, like you said one of our

369
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,200
wives was missing or they found her, you know, in

370
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:39,039
the river, we would be devastated, absolutely devastated. I mean yeah, no,

371
00:20:39,279 --> 00:20:42,440
and you would expect you would expect that from normal people.

372
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 6: And he's very, very controlling of people, and he knows

373
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,559
how to manipulate. I mean there, you know, there's just

374
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:54,680
so many things that had occurred, and a lot of

375
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,039
them I have Unfortunately I should have kept the journal

376
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,640
of all the of them. But trying to live life

377
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:07,119
and then live this life was unbelievable. But anything major

378
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:11,519
that occurred, I did email the detective to the point

379
00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:14,880
I hope he didn't dismiss anything that I was emailing,

380
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:20,799
because to me, any little fact as a as a fact,

381
00:21:21,759 --> 00:21:25,839
it you know, I eventually, yeah, it was really weird

382
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:31,480
that night that you know, my daughter was just do

383
00:21:31,519 --> 00:21:33,640
you think he did it? Why would I even say that?

384
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,720
This is the second time I had met the guy. Yeah,

385
00:21:36,839 --> 00:21:38,200
why would I say that?

386
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,799
Speaker 2: Well, when you were when you're when you're explaining his

387
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,319
actions and how they There's some gut feeling, which we've

388
00:21:45,319 --> 00:21:46,920
talked about it a lot in the show. I think,

389
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,559
to me, gut feelings should be listened to more than

390
00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:51,240
I think people get them credit for it. I look

391
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,559
at his like thousands and thousands of years of evolution

392
00:21:54,279 --> 00:21:56,920
of knowing when something isn't right. I think that's what

393
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,400
that is. So when you were feeling that, would you

394
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,519
tell if the way he was acting or the things

395
00:22:03,519 --> 00:22:06,319
he was doing was more of an act than something

396
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:07,759
of some sincere emotion.

397
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 6: I will be honest, I wasn't even thinking about that

398
00:22:13,559 --> 00:22:17,960
at the time. Sure, I just for me, it was

399
00:22:18,319 --> 00:22:20,519
it wasn't about me, but I was trying to prospect.

400
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,880
I can't believe this is my life. I can't believe

401
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,440
that this is happening. I've only had her back for

402
00:22:27,599 --> 00:22:31,200
seven weeks, and my daughter and I were building this

403
00:22:31,279 --> 00:22:35,839
connection with her again and the kids, and I'm like, now,

404
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,319
where do we go from here? And I tried as

405
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,559
much as possible to reinforce my daughter needed to come

406
00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:44,440
home to go to work, and I said, I'll drop

407
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,920
her off and I'll come back, and you need me

408
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,680
to stay for the week or however long. I can

409
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,720
work from home, you know I can. I can be

410
00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:57,400
here to help you. And it was thank you, Dora,

411
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,000
but kind of no, thank you. No, we'll be fine,

412
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,799
and we'll be fine. And then it was out of

413
00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:08,680
the blue. Now, mind you, I remember Dawn. I met

414
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,599
her one time because I was already moved out of

415
00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:15,160
the house, and one time I went back to visit

416
00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:17,799
she was there and that's when I met her, and

417
00:23:17,839 --> 00:23:22,680
then life went on. She I believe she has a

418
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,880
better recollection of the occurrences. But it was when she

419
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,559
got a hold of me, I was just like, oh

420
00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:34,559
my god, somebody else. And then I had another one

421
00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:38,359
of Gwen's friends message me and said, can I ask

422
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:43,759
you a question? And I was like absolutely, and she said,

423
00:23:43,759 --> 00:23:46,640
do you think he did it? I immediately called for

424
00:23:46,839 --> 00:23:53,880
this friend and started talking. So through that I now

425
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,279
have three friends of her three different states, whom I

426
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,880
never met or I didn't know of two of them

427
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,599
all saying the same thing to me, and none of

428
00:24:08,319 --> 00:24:11,079
the three of them. Yeah, the three of them did

429
00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:13,640
not know each other either, So it was very weird.

430
00:24:13,839 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 2: Okay, so they weren't like kind of already in a

431
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,039
group and kind of egging each other on in any direction.

432
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,559
Everyone came to that conclusion independently and then started kind

433
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,839
of poking at it with the other people, like, Hey,

434
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,279
am I crazy?

435
00:24:27,319 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 1: Here?

436
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,279
Speaker 2: Do you guys think this too, and that's when it

437
00:24:29,319 --> 00:24:32,640
was kind of clicking for everybody exactly.

438
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 6: Don was the first one to contact me. Then there

439
00:24:36,759 --> 00:24:39,960
was a friend of Glenn's, the former coworker in Cleveland,

440
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,839
that messaged me and I was in contact with her.

441
00:24:44,519 --> 00:24:47,160
And then ironically, I had asked Eric, I said there

442
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,279
was a fund in gig Harbor that Gwen had mentioned

443
00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:54,640
to me. Can I have her number? And he sent

444
00:24:54,680 --> 00:25:00,240
it to me and I called her and she she

445
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,799
knows a lot of things that helped Gwen in a

446
00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:07,440
lot of ways, I think, more than what she shared

447
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,640
with me, to be honest, And she's not a toper

448
00:25:11,759 --> 00:25:14,680
and I wish that. I mean, maybe she would be.

449
00:25:14,759 --> 00:25:18,680
I don't know. But just like these three people, one

450
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,440
in Washington, one in Virginia, one in Ohio, none of

451
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,839
them know each other, and they're all saying the same thing.

452
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,680
It's just bizarre. And then I had a friend of

453
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:37,119
mine get in contact with Gwen's sister in law in Texas,

454
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,839
because remember I hadn't been in touch with anybody through that,

455
00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:45,359
I ended up speaking with her and then, you know,

456
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,079
we have similar thoughts, and like I say, we each

457
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,960
have our own story of things that occurred. It was

458
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,799
just I can't even explain all the things that didn't happened,

459
00:25:59,599 --> 00:26:04,559
from having a bonfire and burning mom's clothes to one

460
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,720
day I'm having a girl come from another country and

461
00:26:08,759 --> 00:26:11,960
she's gonna sleep on the couch and we're maybe gonna

462
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,759
get together. And then the next week he's kissed a

463
00:26:15,839 --> 00:26:20,119
girl and now he's marrying her and he invited me

464
00:26:20,279 --> 00:26:22,400
and my husband to the wedding. Now why would I

465
00:26:22,559 --> 00:26:25,680
do that? I couldn't even And I don't know if

466
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,319
you guys watched the video that was on YouTube, and

467
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,240
it takes the little boys like I'm here because my

468
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,880
dad wanted me to be here, and it was just bizarre.

469
00:26:37,839 --> 00:26:40,720
Just the whole thing is bizarre. Now I met Mariam,

470
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,720
and really I had to park at the end of

471
00:26:44,759 --> 00:26:47,480
the road talk to myself, like, door, you have to

472
00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:51,359
be nice. This is what it is. The children are here.

473
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,079
I went there under good intentions with the kids. She

474
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,039
never she was very kind to me. But I look

475
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,039
at it like he would probably hear for a green card.

476
00:27:04,799 --> 00:27:08,920
He probably wanted a wife. I don't I really honestly

477
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:14,000
don't think he was seeing her before that. I feel

478
00:27:14,039 --> 00:27:14,759
that it.

479
00:27:14,839 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 7: Was he needed to have a woman in his.

480
00:27:17,559 --> 00:27:19,839
Speaker 6: Life or something, somebody to help take care of the

481
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,319
kids when was then a stay at home mom. She

482
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:23,160
did everything.

483
00:27:24,799 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 2: And I'm glad you said that because I speculated that

484
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,240
that may have been something that was going on earlier.

485
00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:32,279
But we're not close to the kids, So if you're

486
00:27:32,319 --> 00:27:34,319
close with the family, I would tend to side with

487
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,680
you and say, Okay, that makes sense, especially Wheah when

488
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,559
you're describing his personality.

489
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,039
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't feel that at all he had cheated

490
00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:46,119
on her or anything like that. I don't feel that.

491
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,759
I think that he had met her through however, he

492
00:27:49,799 --> 00:27:53,599
met her an app or dating site. I was just

493
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,440
shocked that he would involve the children so quickly. She

494
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:04,039
told me. Mariam told me that they had kissed, they

495
00:28:04,079 --> 00:28:08,000
had come, he had brought her back to the house.

496
00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:13,559
The children were like, they were dressed nicely, and the

497
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,039
house was saying it was like he was planning on

498
00:28:16,319 --> 00:28:19,519
whomever he met, was bringing them back to the house

499
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,279
to have them there forever. And then they went to

500
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:30,079
wherever Mariam was staying with family or friends, and they

501
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,440
had dinner. I mean, and it was like, I don't understand.

502
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,960
I couldn't comprehend and how many days you knew this

503
00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:41,839
woman and then you were marrying her. There was no courtship,

504
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,119
So in my eyes, it was I need a wife

505
00:28:46,519 --> 00:28:50,559
and for her. My opinion was I need a green

506
00:28:50,599 --> 00:28:54,200
guard or something to stay in this country. I don't

507
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,799
know what happened upon you know, her father passing, and

508
00:28:59,839 --> 00:29:02,319
they went back to Kenya, and then when she was

509
00:29:02,359 --> 00:29:06,279
coming back she got supported. I don't know any of

510
00:29:06,279 --> 00:29:09,880
that story. I do know as of a month ago

511
00:29:10,839 --> 00:29:17,759
when I inquired with she told me that Mariam wasn't back, okay,

512
00:29:17,759 --> 00:29:22,160
so I'm assuming she's filling Kenya. I do know that

513
00:29:22,279 --> 00:29:26,160
he is in gig Harbor. What he's doing I don't know.

514
00:29:26,759 --> 00:29:32,279
But yeah, there are just stories upon stories and I

515
00:29:32,319 --> 00:29:33,000
don't even know.

516
00:29:34,279 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 3: Well are you sure?

517
00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 2: I'm not saying are you sure, like like questioning you.

518
00:29:39,039 --> 00:29:41,440
But with they went back to Kenya because her father

519
00:29:41,519 --> 00:29:44,400
did pass away, because that is information that we didn't

520
00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:46,400
really have there, like, hey, was he going out of

521
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,359
country because that would be suspicious, but like she really

522
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:50,839
had her father pass away.

523
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 6: So that is what he posted something on Facebook at

524
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:02,400
the time that his father law. He didn't have a

525
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,640
chance to meet him in person, but he had passed

526
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,319
away and they were going back to Kenya his parents.

527
00:30:09,599 --> 00:30:12,720
The children went with the grandparents while they were going

528
00:30:12,759 --> 00:30:18,640
back to Kenya for the funeral, and then Eric came

529
00:30:18,839 --> 00:30:24,799
back and the next day the children flew back home

530
00:30:24,839 --> 00:30:29,440
and Eric picked them up at the airport. It was

531
00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:33,519
just bizarre. And that's when he started making all the

532
00:30:33,599 --> 00:30:38,920
allegations about the USA and she was deported and why

533
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,880
I don't know. I just know that they were coming

534
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,799
back to the country and he was allowed in and

535
00:30:44,839 --> 00:30:48,720
she was not. He had cut me out of their lives,

536
00:30:49,160 --> 00:31:00,000
let's be probably artically June or July. He stopped communicating

537
00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:02,680
with me. He cut me out of the you know,

538
00:31:02,759 --> 00:31:06,920
their lives period. And the only way I knew anything

539
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,079
about them was through another party that was in touch

540
00:31:10,119 --> 00:31:14,559
with them. And it was just very manipulative. And I

541
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,559
think part of it was he was nervous because anytime

542
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,000
any of them needed me, I dropped everything and I

543
00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:26,200
drove the three hours up there to be there. And

544
00:31:26,319 --> 00:31:28,920
he knew that I could do that, and I think

545
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,960
that that kind of maybe scared him that he was

546
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,920
they weren't alone. Now Gwen had found me. I was

547
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,319
close enough. I had the ability to just drop and go.

548
00:31:41,359 --> 00:31:45,599
There was even a time that his new wife called

549
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,720
me and she said, Dora, I am. She said, can

550
00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:55,480
you come up here? She said, Eric's in the hospital. Apparently.

551
00:31:57,319 --> 00:32:00,599
I don't know what happened, but he had gotten really drunk.

552
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,880
He was on somebody's property. I don't know all the details.

553
00:32:05,119 --> 00:32:08,000
Something with the property owner had told him to get off,

554
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:13,200
and he showed the property owner a gun, and I

555
00:32:13,279 --> 00:32:16,279
believed that they reported it to the police and gave

556
00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:19,680
him the license plate. By that time, Eric was back home.

557
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,079
The police came to the house to question him, and

558
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,599
the next thing I know, I guess he was so

559
00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:31,480
drunk she could not wake him up. The police went

560
00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:35,400
and physically got him and they took him to the hospital.

561
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,119
She called me at that point. She didn't want Eric

562
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,079
to know that I was up there because he would

563
00:32:41,079 --> 00:32:47,960
be very, very mad. And the next day she Marriam

564
00:32:48,599 --> 00:32:52,119
was able to talk Eric into letting the children go

565
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:57,759
and visit their family in Texas, and so I took

566
00:32:57,839 --> 00:33:01,279
them to the airport the next warning, and the children

567
00:33:01,359 --> 00:33:04,279
were at least able to get away for quite some time.

568
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,359
I think it was like a week maybe, And then

569
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,400
he demanded when he got out of the hospital like

570
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,799
three days later. You know, they send you to wherever

571
00:33:15,839 --> 00:33:17,759
and you sober up and then you get to come

572
00:33:17,799 --> 00:33:22,559
home and no repercussions of how many times do we

573
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,920
allow this to happen before it's an issue? So he

574
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,039
had no clue I was up there at that time,

575
00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:35,720
at least to my knowledge, Nobody told him, and yeah, don't.

576
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,599
I don't even know. There's just so so many things

577
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,799
that occurred, and it's kind of scattered and.

578
00:33:43,759 --> 00:33:46,319
Speaker 2: To your point before too, you also have your own life,

579
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,960
your own children, and you're trying to juggle this, which

580
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,160
is more than anybody normally should be ever able to handle.

581
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,039
So I can imagine, like what a whirlwind it was.

582
00:33:56,599 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 6: You know. That's why I felt that it was necessary

583
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,960
for all the documentation. When after I'd spoke to don

584
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,799
She's like, Door, you need to contact somebody. Something's not right.

585
00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:12,320
It's not right, And I did. I called Washington State

586
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,800
and they're like, you need to speak to Trooper Knock.

587
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:17,960
He was the one that was originally on the scene,

588
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:21,039
and I did talk to him, and at the end

589
00:34:21,079 --> 00:34:26,239
of our conversation he said, you need to contact the detective.

590
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,840
I'm like, detective I'm like, what, And then he gave

591
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,639
me the information and I did that. We played email

592
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,760
or phone tag for a day or two, and then

593
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,519
the detective and I talked and I told him my

594
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,719
story and he said, you know, Door, at the end

595
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,519
of everything we've talked about, you never said if you

596
00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:53,320
felt he did it? And I said, you know, you're right,

597
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,159
But why would I fit across from the table to

598
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,599
day everything from my daughter and ask her do you

599
00:34:59,639 --> 00:35:01,800
think did it? If I didn't feel that way?

600
00:35:02,559 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that the TECTI Chrisian asked you that after

601
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,360
all of your conversations.

602
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 6: Yes, well, our very initial conversation we had. That was

603
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,280
his question for me. Okay, and yeah, and I said,

604
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,559
well why would I ask, you know, ask my daughter

605
00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:23,559
do you think he did it? Now? Just keep in mind,

606
00:35:23,639 --> 00:35:26,199
my daughter's working on her masters and mental health, so

607
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,920
god forbid, she's gonna really you saw her mother?

608
00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, but.

609
00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 6: There are just so many instants. I was able to

610
00:35:36,559 --> 00:35:39,719
take one time for a weekend. I went up and

611
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,199
got her and then brought her back, and then I

612
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,800
was able to keep her one time for a week

613
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,760
Now would never come. He always wanted to be.

614
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 7: Home, close to home, and I.

615
00:35:51,159 --> 00:35:56,119
Speaker 6: Think he was the secret keeper and they looked after Dad,

616
00:35:56,159 --> 00:35:59,400
and so I think that he was probably just afraid

617
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,880
he lost to mom. And he knows Dad's an alcoholic,

618
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,400
and he knows Dad's been drinking. But they never told me. Yeah,

619
00:36:06,559 --> 00:36:09,360
I only knew all of this because of other people

620
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:14,039
telling me. And when I brought me home one time,

621
00:36:14,519 --> 00:36:18,760
we came back from the store and we were sitting

622
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,920
in the car and I was talking to her and

623
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,480
she just kind of like, I, you know, I don't know,

624
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,159
you know, I don't know what happened. And she's like,

625
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,719
and my dog, She's like my noodle dog. I loved

626
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,840
him so much. And I said, well, what happened to Noodle?

627
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,840
And she said, I don't know. Dad took him for

628
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,199
a walk and Dad said that he just dropped over.

629
00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:48,960
There's been many stories with the dog. The dog had COVID.

630
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,119
The dog just had a heart attack, and this was

631
00:36:53,159 --> 00:37:00,440
like just days after when had passed. And in fact,

632
00:37:00,519 --> 00:37:04,719
he you know, you don't they never walked to the dog.

633
00:37:05,159 --> 00:37:07,559
The dog they let out the back patio, he had

634
00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:09,800
the yard to run in and he would come back.

635
00:37:10,559 --> 00:37:12,760
So for him to take the dog on a walk

636
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,840
was suspicious. To begin with, because they never walked to

637
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:16,320
the dog.

638
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you touched on a key point that

639
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,239
was a big red flag for us when we initially

640
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,280
looked into the case. And I haven't even talked to

641
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,599
anybody yet, but it seemed as though almost every story,

642
00:37:28,679 --> 00:37:31,880
even the small stories that were you think would be innocuous,

643
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,880
just seemed to never be consistent. Like you said, like,

644
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,679
g't sure, Like at first it was he had COVID,

645
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,920
and then Gwen had COVID, then the dog had COVID,

646
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,639
so that's why he had to get rid of the dog.

647
00:37:44,199 --> 00:37:46,800
And when we talked to Don, she was speculating just

648
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,960
because you know, they had other pets. But she she

649
00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:53,079
kind of put together that he seemed to have been

650
00:37:53,119 --> 00:37:56,079
cleansing anything that was tied to Gwen because that was

651
00:37:56,119 --> 00:37:56,840
Gwen's dog.

652
00:37:58,039 --> 00:38:02,559
Speaker 6: In fact, Gwen was going to write a blog. She

653
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,559
was a vegetarian, and she was going to write a

654
00:38:05,599 --> 00:38:09,360
blog what my dog ate today? Because if Gwen was

655
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,519
cutting sweet potatoes, the dog came and got sweet potato.

656
00:38:12,679 --> 00:38:15,000
Gwen would text me that she was at the bus

657
00:38:15,039 --> 00:38:18,880
stop with the children and the dog was with the dogs.

658
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,719
It was her dogs, and you know they I don't

659
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,320
think that the children were supposed to say anything to me.

660
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,000
But the kids were like, we had a bonfire, and

661
00:38:29,039 --> 00:38:31,599
I'm like, you did. I'm like that must have been fun,

662
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,119
you know, just always trying to make it positive. And

663
00:38:35,159 --> 00:38:39,920
they were like, yeah, we burned mom's clothes so they

664
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,920
could go up to heaven with her. And I'm like,

665
00:38:44,119 --> 00:38:48,599
what on earth, Gwen? Knowing Gwen, she would have wanted

666
00:38:48,639 --> 00:38:54,920
them donated to somebody's youth. She would not want her

667
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,760
things burned. She would want somebody else to have them,

668
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,519
to utilize them.

669
00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:04,639
Speaker 8: And so it just it seems like a traumatic thing

670
00:39:04,679 --> 00:39:09,639
to do in front of children. Just lost them too well,

671
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,480
stuff like don said, they're he was burning, like journals

672
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:13,880
and things too, like other ideas.

673
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:19,199
Speaker 6: Yeah, she kept she kept journals upon journals of things

674
00:39:19,199 --> 00:39:21,440
that they did or whatever. And I don't know if

675
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,360
it was done through her therapy. I know that her

676
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,000
and the children, she did take the children with her

677
00:39:27,039 --> 00:39:30,599
to therapy to where they went, you know, that was

678
00:39:30,679 --> 00:39:33,599
never talked about. She just said they did go to therapy.

679
00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:38,119
When I mentioned to Eric about him and the children

680
00:39:38,199 --> 00:39:42,400
going to therapy to help through this traumatic situation, No,

681
00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:47,159
we don't need therapy. We we know. No. He was

682
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,480
very banned against it, to the point that when I

683
00:39:51,639 --> 00:39:53,719
mentioned to the children, I'm like, hey, do you guys

684
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,920
want to talk to anybody? And they're like, no, we

685
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,320
don't need any help. We're fine. Everything was fine all

686
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,559
the time. We're fine, We're fine. It was just you know,

687
00:40:04,679 --> 00:40:07,719
and one thing I had forgot to mention as well.

688
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,679
I had told my daughter the day that everything happened.

689
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,920
You know, something's wrong. She said, something's wrong. Mama would

690
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,159
never throw herself off a bridge. She loved K and

691
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:29,280
I too much, and yeah, I just you know, my

692
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,840
daughter was like, Mom, I just I wish I had

693
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,039
more time. But you know, when it got quiet, and

694
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,400
the house was not that large and it was on

695
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,639
one floor, she said, when it got quiet, I didn't

696
00:40:41,679 --> 00:40:46,400
want anything to be overheard of what she was sharing

697
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:51,400
with me. And we you know, it was always like

698
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:56,480
on eggshells all the time. And in fact, the whole

699
00:40:56,559 --> 00:41:01,800
time that I had the one weekend were called, she

700
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,199
never checked on her. I would tell her, you, you know,

701
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,639
you better call your dad, and you know, just I mean,

702
00:41:08,679 --> 00:41:12,239
being a parent, I my child better call me check in.

703
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,760
But it was like nothing, no big deal.

704
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,039
Speaker 2: Was your daughter going through her masters at the time

705
00:41:18,159 --> 00:41:20,840
or going into the mental health type work.

706
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:26,519
Speaker 6: So she she is in her masters currently, Okay, she's

707
00:41:26,559 --> 00:41:29,239
in the middle of it. She was in that field,

708
00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:35,159
so all the skills she probably knows now she didn't

709
00:41:35,199 --> 00:41:41,840
have then, although she's very smart, and I mean, in fact,

710
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,440
when she was younger, the children would say she would

711
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,719
come home mom. The kids on the playground told me

712
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:52,079
that I'm like doctor phil and Oprah, And I mean

713
00:41:52,119 --> 00:41:54,840
she was like nine, you know, eight nine years old

714
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,119
that so she was destined to do this, but she

715
00:41:57,199 --> 00:41:58,719
needed to figure it out on her own.

716
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 2: Sure, well, I I asked her, because it sounds like

717
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,519
she was intuitive to that. And if she's going into

718
00:42:04,519 --> 00:42:07,039
that field, she knows a bit about it, and if

719
00:42:07,079 --> 00:42:09,440
she's with you also sensing it. I look at that

720
00:42:09,519 --> 00:42:12,480
as you have a gut feeling she's working to be

721
00:42:12,519 --> 00:42:15,320
a professional at this and also senses something is different,

722
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,559
like she feels like she can't even discuss openly with

723
00:42:17,599 --> 00:42:21,039
the kids because it could potentially be a hazardous environment

724
00:42:21,079 --> 00:42:21,679
to do that in.

725
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,599
Speaker 6: Yeah, and at that time, her job, she worked for

726
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:31,320
a nonprofit that with children that she would assist to

727
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:36,400
their therapist and it would be more in the field

728
00:42:36,559 --> 00:42:42,039
where the therapist was more in office, so she had

729
00:42:42,199 --> 00:42:45,880
a well rounded sense of everything that was going on.

730
00:42:46,679 --> 00:42:52,320
But I think it, you know, she doesn't really talk

731
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:57,320
about it, and she's like, Mom, he's crazy, he's doing nothing,

732
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,000
but you know, stress to you. Just cut it up,

733
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,800
go on your day. And I said, but I'm still attached,

734
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,599
I said. She didn't know when but for those short times.

735
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,400
And they started a texting rapport like let's ask each

736
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,159
other questions and like what's your favorite color or what

737
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,400
did you do? And so they were catching up of

738
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:24,039
twenty some years of time together and the last one

739
00:43:24,119 --> 00:43:27,199
had seen my daughter. She was like eighteen twenty months

740
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,039
and here she was a grown adult. Yeah, but you know,

741
00:43:31,119 --> 00:43:34,159
so they started that connection and to the point she

742
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,599
can't even listen to the podcast. I told her about it.

743
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,320
I was like, hey, this is It was maybe a

744
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,400
month later she said, when read it, I made a

745
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,159
comment and so I went back and I googled it

746
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,400
and read it and I was just like heartbroken that

747
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,480
she didn't need she couldn't even bring herself to listen

748
00:43:55,519 --> 00:44:00,239
to that, and that she remembered that that phone call

749
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,519
and because at that point, she was still at home

750
00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:06,159
and you know, she's like, Mom, what happened? What happened.

751
00:44:06,159 --> 00:44:08,559
I'm coming with you. I'm calling off the work, and

752
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,880
so you know, it was, yeah, it's now.

753
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,199
Speaker 3: That is tough. That is tough.

754
00:44:15,599 --> 00:44:17,559
Speaker 2: And I wanted to get your reaction because we went

755
00:44:17,639 --> 00:44:22,239
past the whole actual when you were notified that they

756
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,039
thought that she had jumped off the bridge and committed suicide.

757
00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:27,960
What was your initial thoughts when you heard that story.

758
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 6: So Eric's the one that said that they were looking

759
00:44:33,559 --> 00:44:37,840
for her in the Tacoma narrow and through. You know

760
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,639
when I called him when he told me not to

761
00:44:40,679 --> 00:44:45,000
come up there, and we have to drive over that

762
00:44:45,079 --> 00:44:47,199
bridge to get to their house, and the whole time,

763
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,119
my daughter was driving and I'm looking and looking and

764
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,480
I'm just like, I don't see helicopters. Where are they now? Again,

765
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,039
it is the Northwest and there are plenty of kuality

766
00:44:57,159 --> 00:45:00,880
days that you know, seven thirty eight four in the morning,

767
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,280
and I'm just like, well, I don't understand. I couldn't

768
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:11,599
process it. And then I at that point it was

769
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,400
nobody said she physically jumped off a bridge. It was

770
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,079
when I talked to Trooper Knox that he told me

771
00:45:20,639 --> 00:45:26,519
the situation that was in the police report, that there

772
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,880
was the van that was wrecked. And I'm sorry, I'm

773
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:35,320
just so like my mind is going a thousand different places.

774
00:45:35,559 --> 00:45:39,920
And he had told me when I talked to Supernox,

775
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,039
he had said that was a weird night. And I said,

776
00:45:42,079 --> 00:45:45,079
you don't have to tell me that. I understand it

777
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,239
was a weird night. Well you know what happened. And

778
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,880
he told me that he had arrived on the scene

779
00:45:53,679 --> 00:45:57,239
there was the van that was wrecked. He said it

780
00:45:57,599 --> 00:46:01,000
was very odd. It wasn't didn't seem to consistent within

781
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,039
there's guardrail on that bridge. I believe if you watch

782
00:46:05,079 --> 00:46:07,880
the video footage I had taken from the from their

783
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,199
house to that bridge, he said, it wasn't consistent with

784
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,519
like an accident on the guard rail. He said there

785
00:46:13,519 --> 00:46:17,920
were wood pieces stuck in the side of the car.

786
00:46:19,159 --> 00:46:22,840
And he said there was a man that had his

787
00:46:23,079 --> 00:46:29,119
own mental challenges that said he had seen Gwen, he

788
00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:32,639
had talked to her, and he looked back and there

789
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,000
was a shadow going over the bridge. It was just

790
00:46:36,119 --> 00:46:39,400
like what I just don't understand that. But this guy

791
00:46:40,679 --> 00:46:44,800
said that there was somebody in the van and Okay,

792
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,079
I know he may may have been maybe he was homeless,

793
00:46:49,119 --> 00:46:54,360
maybe he does have his own mental issues, maybe he

794
00:46:54,599 --> 00:47:00,719
was drinking. But when he the consistent thing, he says

795
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,559
that somebody was in the vehicle. Aren't you going to

796
00:47:05,639 --> 00:47:09,719
look at that Eric was a marathon runner. I mean,

797
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:14,000
the detective even asked me how fast can Eric run?

798
00:47:14,639 --> 00:47:17,559
And I said, you don't know. I don't know, but

799
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,280
he did tell my daughter, And the detective never called

800
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:24,840
my daughter, and I said, she was there the day

801
00:47:25,079 --> 00:47:28,960
with me. She would remember more, she was entuned, more,

802
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,440
she spoke to the children. I'm only hearing this through her.

803
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,400
Of the things that you know that had told her,

804
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,199
they weren't said to me. I would think that he

805
00:47:42,199 --> 00:47:45,000
would want to call her. She's an adult at that point.

806
00:47:45,079 --> 00:47:48,719
She's over twenty, you know, eighteen twenty one, she's over

807
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:53,519
at that age. And it was just weird that he

808
00:47:53,599 --> 00:47:58,239
never called and spoke with her. And so anyway, it

809
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:03,920
just was like why the detective asked how fast he

810
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,559
could run? And it was bizarre after that, After that

811
00:48:07,639 --> 00:48:10,639
conversation I had with the detective, the next day, Eric

812
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,760
posted something on Facebook, a picture of him running the

813
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:20,119
marathon over that bridge, with the time that he ran

814
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:24,400
that day, and I sent that. I did send that

815
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:29,199
to the detective, that picture and that post of that time,

816
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,079
and so I figured if it was like twelve they

817
00:48:33,119 --> 00:48:35,880
hadn't mapped the detective mapped it out, as I think

818
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,480
it was like twelve point whatever miles to the house

819
00:48:39,519 --> 00:48:44,440
to the bridge, and his time would have allotted that

820
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,440
to be able to run back to the house after

821
00:48:47,559 --> 00:48:49,199
that time. Yeah.

822
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:51,639
Speaker 2: One of the things that always irked me too is

823
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,239
in the report the detective said when they had called

824
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,239
him to inform them that they had found the van,

825
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,239
so they didn't know where Gwen was at the time.

826
00:49:00,079 --> 00:49:03,039
Sponsor the phone call was that the van was parked

827
00:49:03,039 --> 00:49:05,400
at home and everybody was at home. But at that

828
00:49:05,519 --> 00:49:08,159
point he would have also known that that wasn't the case.

829
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, And their house had an alarm like if you

830
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,199
open the front door, it's like the the front door open,

831
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,840
garage door open, and I've heard that, and then the

832
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,960
back door. I don't know that the back door had

833
00:49:24,079 --> 00:49:28,119
that feature on it, but I do know the garage

834
00:49:28,199 --> 00:49:33,360
door and the front door did. And if she had

835
00:49:33,519 --> 00:49:35,760
when she was leaving that house, you didn't hear that,

836
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:38,480
You didn't hear that.

837
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,519
Speaker 3: So, yeah, we know she went out the front door,

838
00:49:42,039 --> 00:49:43,320
because we have the video of.

839
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 6: That, and it is very dark and that's the only

840
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,480
place that had lights that the house was at that

841
00:49:49,559 --> 00:49:54,920
front door. The so in their driveway. Why did why

842
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,159
did they end the video there? Why couldn't we see

843
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,719
her trying to walk down the steps? Why was that

844
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:05,159
video ended there? The detective or the police see any

845
00:50:05,199 --> 00:50:08,599
further video? And I mean we only seen that because

846
00:50:08,679 --> 00:50:11,039
he posted that on social media.

847
00:50:11,559 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and from the report it sounds like that's the

848
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,079
same That's the only video the detective had was that

849
00:50:16,119 --> 00:50:19,559
same social media post, which was then subsequently deleted. But

850
00:50:19,679 --> 00:50:21,639
we did get I forget who sent it to us, Mike,

851
00:50:21,679 --> 00:50:23,000
somebody sent us the actual.

852
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:29,599
Speaker 6: Video, Okay, yeah, always yeah, yeah, yeah, I sent because

853
00:50:29,639 --> 00:50:34,119
that's all that I had. And now he deleted his Facebook,

854
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,519
so it kind of deleted that video. But through some

855
00:50:37,679 --> 00:50:41,280
digging through another person, I was able to get that video.

856
00:50:42,119 --> 00:50:46,320
It just there were so many unanswered questions, and look,

857
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,440
I know it was at the beginning of COVID and

858
00:50:49,519 --> 00:50:52,280
a lot of things were going on. I immediately threw

859
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:58,039
myself into speaking a counselor, and she a week before

860
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,800
actually all this happened. And when I called, she said, door,

861
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,960
you do know you're going into a home that maybe

862
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,760
there's COVID, And I said, I don't care. I am healthy.

863
00:51:08,119 --> 00:51:11,480
I don't care. You're telling me that my sister's missing,

864
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:17,159
and I don't care. COVID, no COVID, it doesn't matter.

865
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,159
So anyway, I don't even know if COVID happened or not.

866
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,840
I you know, I can't say. I just don't know.

867
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 3: For their test results and stuff like that.

868
00:51:28,639 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, I, according to Eric, I would ask him, you know,

869
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,960
a weeks fafter did you get did you get the results?

870
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,559
Did you get the results? He would tell me no,

871
00:51:37,679 --> 00:51:40,280
I'm sure the detective was able to get the results.

872
00:51:40,639 --> 00:51:43,639
But again that was never shared with me personally, so

873
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:44,159
I don't know.

874
00:51:44,559 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was one of our speculations, also because this

875
00:51:47,599 --> 00:51:51,960
was early COVID, because I remembered specifically because March nineteenth

876
00:51:52,039 --> 00:51:55,400
was my birthday, and that's right when it was kind

877
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,400
of like we're starting to lock down. People are scared,

878
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:02,119
people don't know what's going on. So we I try

879
00:52:02,159 --> 00:52:04,199
and look at more of the silver lining aspect. We

880
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,519
looked at the lack of the in depth investigation is

881
00:52:07,559 --> 00:52:10,400
more of this COVID thing is happening and people don't

882
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,960
know what's going on, Like did the things get overlooked

883
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,480
because you know, there might be people that think this

884
00:52:15,599 --> 00:52:17,719
might be the end, this might be the plague. So no,

885
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:20,280
we're not going to focus our energy on this type

886
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,679
of thing. But I also found it odd that they

887
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:26,559
were reporting all the COVID positives that were coming out

888
00:52:26,639 --> 00:52:29,000
because Washington State was one of the first states that

889
00:52:29,039 --> 00:52:32,960
had early positive cases and there was no mention in

890
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,159
the news at this Now that doesn't mean it didn't happen,

891
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:39,360
but I just remember at that point every day getting

892
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,000
an update of one by one the people who got

893
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,480
COVID and where they were, and all of a sudden,

894
00:52:44,519 --> 00:52:47,199
we're seeing in social media, I've got COVID, she's got COVID,

895
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,519
the dog's got COVID. And when you look at the

896
00:52:49,559 --> 00:52:52,400
news reports, there was like, I don't know, if you remember, Mike,

897
00:52:52,519 --> 00:52:54,760
like a sixty year old man and two other people

898
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:58,440
were reported as actually having it there and you know,

899
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,679
if you know, he's saying, well, she was hospitalized, but

900
00:53:00,679 --> 00:53:02,760
they're gonna send her home COVID positive, and I'm like,

901
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,000
I don't know, if they were doing that, they were

902
00:53:05,039 --> 00:53:07,639
like locking people down at that point so it wouldn't spread,

903
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,440
and so the stories didn't match up. Ever, and then

904
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:14,400
your daughter might actually be a good reference for this.

905
00:53:14,519 --> 00:53:16,679
But the other thing that rubbed us the wrong way

906
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,199
was when someone commits suicide. And again I am not

907
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:25,960
an expert, but I have family that are therapists and

908
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,639
I've talked about this with them, and the actions that

909
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,760
someone who's actually going to commit that, unless it's like

910
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,679
the heat of the moment, are typically to disconnect, you know,

911
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,800
give away personal belongings, things like that, And it sounded

912
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,599
like things were starting to really go good with her.

913
00:53:42,679 --> 00:53:45,960
She reconnected with you. When we talked to Dawn, don

914
00:53:46,039 --> 00:53:48,119
was saying she felt like she was doing really good.

915
00:53:48,159 --> 00:53:51,840
She was in a good spot. And then the thing

916
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:55,320
that always always got to me was the children and

917
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,920
how she would never do anything that would put the

918
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,599
children at harm. And what Donn had mentioned was with

919
00:54:01,679 --> 00:54:04,480
the domestic abuse type things, or there was one incident

920
00:54:04,519 --> 00:54:07,639
where Eric was out in front with a gun waving

921
00:54:07,639 --> 00:54:09,440
it around, saying he was going to kill himself, and

922
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,280
she had to call Gwen had to call the police,

923
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:15,920
and the children are there watching it, and I think

924
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:17,519
it might correct me if I'm wrong, because we just

925
00:54:17,519 --> 00:54:19,320
did this the other day. But Don said something like

926
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:23,880
she would not leave those children in that home by themselves.

927
00:54:24,519 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 6: She called her friend in gig Harbor and said, can

928
00:54:28,039 --> 00:54:32,679
you come get the kids? And according to the friend

929
00:54:32,679 --> 00:54:34,639
that I spoke to, and I don't know if you

930
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,480
guys reached out to her or not, so I don't

931
00:54:37,599 --> 00:54:39,639
want to throw her under a bus or anything.

932
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:41,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, I say, if you want to message us after

933
00:54:41,639 --> 00:54:43,239
this and tell us her name, just don't stay on

934
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:44,760
the air now in case they don't want.

935
00:54:44,679 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 3: To be identified exactly.

936
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:51,599
Speaker 6: She told me Gwen had got a hold of her

937
00:54:51,639 --> 00:54:55,320
and said, can you come and get the children and

938
00:54:55,519 --> 00:54:59,199
keep them as long as you need to? And I

939
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,559
believe she did did this was shortly after I believe

940
00:55:02,599 --> 00:55:07,079
they moved into the house. But this friend also her

941
00:55:07,119 --> 00:55:11,199
and her husband helped Gwen a lot when Eric did

942
00:55:12,559 --> 00:55:17,320
stupid thing of like with his drinking and traveling and whatnot.

943
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:21,840
So yes, I definitely will get you her contact information. Now.

944
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:26,400
When I had met Gwen initially, I had purchased this

945
00:55:26,559 --> 00:55:29,800
necklace for her and it had a little It was

946
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,800
in a shape of a tear heart and at the

947
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,280
bottom of the heart or not a heart, it was

948
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,679
like a tear drop, and at the bottom of it

949
00:55:36,679 --> 00:55:40,639
it had a diamond. And I said, these are for

950
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,679
all the tears that we cried in the past, and

951
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,880
now we can let it go and let's build a future.

952
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,239
We were talking about girls weekend and our family's taken

953
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:54,360
a vacation to the coast together, and we had made

954
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:57,159
like a lot of plans. We found out we had

955
00:55:57,199 --> 00:56:01,519
a lot of similar things now adults in common and

956
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,400
what we were going to do, and now we had

957
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,840
some things we probably would have disagreed upon. She's an

958
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,800
anti gun and I'm like, hey, I have my license

959
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,800
to care. Even though I don't, I do have. And

960
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,760
you know, we we disagree to we agree to disagree.

961
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:20,639
But yeah, we still had a lot of things in

962
00:56:20,679 --> 00:56:24,440
common that we like to do, especially in the Pacific Northwest,

963
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:29,079
and so we were making those plans. And that's why

964
00:56:29,119 --> 00:56:34,119
when they said it was suicide, I I'm just like,

965
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,760
I don't understand. I don't understand that we had planned.

966
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:42,840
I'm not finished yet. She wasn't finished yet. She had

967
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,199
things she wanted to do. She talked about the blog

968
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,400
she wanted to write, and how involved she was with

969
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:53,599
the children, with you know, with ballet and with piano,

970
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,199
and she would send me videos of playing the piane.

971
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:02,000
He was really good, and I I just don't understand.

972
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:07,400
She was not done living her life. She was not done.

973
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:09,800
I do not believe it was suicide. Some may differ

974
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:13,840
with me, but that is my opinion from my reconnection

975
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:18,079
with her, and I am definitely one. As I'm looking

976
00:57:18,119 --> 00:57:22,519
through these emails, I must have jotted down notes at

977
00:57:22,519 --> 00:57:24,480
some point in time, but I definitely want to get

978
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:26,760
them to you because a lot of them will give

979
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:31,400
you a lot more feedback of the time when they happened,

980
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,079
because it would happen and that night I would email,

981
00:57:35,199 --> 00:57:38,480
and that's kind of like I guess my journal to

982
00:57:38,519 --> 00:57:42,159
the detective, you know, but you know, there were many

983
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:46,960
bizarre things that had taken place that I would email

984
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,840
again he cut me off at that point in time.

985
00:57:50,559 --> 00:57:54,119
And so that's like where I say there are three

986
00:57:54,679 --> 00:57:58,960
key people into knowing that before would be Dawn, her

987
00:57:59,079 --> 00:58:01,599
being such a good friend and trying to help out

988
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:05,320
and knew of so many things. People to fill in

989
00:58:05,719 --> 00:58:08,599
like the friend, I'll send you the number. There was

990
00:58:08,639 --> 00:58:12,400
a friend in Ohio that she's not too talkative. Once

991
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:16,280
in a while I'll message her or she'll message me,

992
00:58:17,159 --> 00:58:20,760
and it's very sporadic and out of the blue. And

993
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,400
then the sister in law in Texas.

994
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:25,599
Speaker 2: I have yet to come across one of them that

995
00:58:25,639 --> 00:58:29,760
doesn't share your sentiment, Dawn sentiment. I mean even people

996
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:33,800
that should theoretically be on Eric's side. I won't say

997
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:35,159
who they are because I don't know if they want

998
00:58:35,159 --> 00:58:37,519
to share, but people who when they reached out would like, Okay,

999
00:58:37,519 --> 00:58:39,320
we're going to get the other side, and they say, hey,

1000
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,039
I was friends with him, I am in this very

1001
00:58:43,039 --> 00:58:45,920
close relationship with him. I kind of agree with what

1002
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,159
you guys have come to the conclusion Sote.

1003
00:58:48,159 --> 00:58:50,199
Speaker 3: Like I said, it's people that are supposed.

1004
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,440
Speaker 2: To be ones that would be defending him are also

1005
00:58:52,599 --> 00:58:57,000
wondering if that's he possibly caused these problems. And one

1006
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:58,519
of the things that still sticks with me in my

1007
00:58:58,639 --> 00:59:01,960
hopes that all all of this raising this awareness will

1008
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,519
help reopen the case was a detective Christian's last comment

1009
00:59:05,559 --> 00:59:08,280
on his last report that we have and it's a quote.

1010
00:59:08,679 --> 00:59:13,119
Though unusual, these documented circumstances do not readily identify any

1011
00:59:13,159 --> 00:59:17,679
over malicious intent behind Gwen's passing. However, they do present

1012
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:21,519
cause for consideration those with opinions about the welfare the

1013
00:59:21,519 --> 00:59:24,840
welfare of Gwen's surviving children, or encourage to report their

1014
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:28,000
concerns a local CPS. So to me, that read in

1015
00:59:28,119 --> 00:59:32,239
that maybe at a legal level he might not have

1016
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:36,320
had what he needed at the time to bring charges

1017
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,960
or hold him. But I don't think he believes this

1018
00:59:40,119 --> 00:59:42,639
was a suicide fully either. I'm putting words in his mouth.

1019
00:59:42,679 --> 00:59:45,599
This is my speculation about his comments. So this is me,

1020
00:59:45,719 --> 00:59:47,920
this is not his words. But we've been trying to

1021
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:49,360
get a hold of him to say, hey, come on

1022
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:52,119
here and say what you're allowed to say. I don't

1023
00:59:52,199 --> 00:59:54,079
know what they can say or what they can't say

1024
00:59:54,079 --> 00:59:55,920
in a case that's been closed or if it's still

1025
00:59:55,960 --> 01:00:00,320
open or whatever. But I know between you others people

1026
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:03,119
that want to remain anonymous, we have more information that

1027
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:06,039
was not anywhere in any of the reports that I

1028
01:00:06,079 --> 01:00:09,679
think would be viable information to potentially reopen the case.

1029
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's why I was digging for his last email

1030
01:00:16,119 --> 01:00:22,920
communication because he's the speed down Amy and I in it,

1031
01:00:23,519 --> 01:00:26,599
and none of us can find it. And I just

1032
01:00:26,679 --> 01:00:29,880
find that bizarre that out of three people, we cannot

1033
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:37,079
find this email. And basically it had said after his conclusion,

1034
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:42,719
he did close the case and there was no concrete evidence.

1035
01:00:43,159 --> 01:00:45,920
Was I believe the terminology he used and that was

1036
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:50,840
the reasoning for closing the case. But yeah, I don't

1037
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:54,199
want to quote it without it being accurate. And for

1038
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,800
the life of me, not one of the three of

1039
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:00,760
us that it's just like it disappeared down there and

1040
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,280
don't I don't know what happened. Did we deleted in

1041
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,519
the heat of you know, we're mad. I went back

1042
01:01:06,559 --> 01:01:10,199
through my deleted messages and I just can't find it.

1043
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:13,400
I wish I could. There. You know, there was a

1044
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:17,840
time when I did call Child Protective Services. Don't get

1045
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:21,960
me wrong, I've probably I've called them, maybe on I

1046
01:01:22,039 --> 01:01:26,800
called the police, maybe on three or I don't remember

1047
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,599
how many times I called them on several different occasions,

1048
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:34,559
and I you know, they went out there one time

1049
01:01:35,119 --> 01:01:39,000
and well it was the night that he had spent

1050
01:01:39,519 --> 01:01:42,239
nigh and at this point I don't think I were

1051
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:45,800
even talking to each other. Text messages and I think

1052
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:50,400
I did post them up on that page regarding how

1053
01:01:50,639 --> 01:01:55,760
he had a gun and he held it in his

1054
01:01:55,920 --> 01:02:00,840
mouth and whatnot, and I was texting him, look, you

1055
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:05,039
have these children to take care of. I even asked him,

1056
01:02:05,119 --> 01:02:07,719
do you have what would happen to the children, And

1057
01:02:07,719 --> 01:02:11,440
then all of this stuff, and at the same time,

1058
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:15,280
unbeknownst to me, he was texting and doing the same stuff.

1059
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:20,679
And then when we compared notes were like, well, he

1060
01:02:20,719 --> 01:02:25,559
probably was drown and he did have a lot of guns.

1061
01:02:26,199 --> 01:02:29,719
So the next morning, when he wasn't answering my phone

1062
01:02:29,719 --> 01:02:33,239
calls and he wasn't answering I did, I called and

1063
01:02:33,519 --> 01:02:37,920
for a well check. And then he got mad because

1064
01:02:38,079 --> 01:02:40,079
I called for a well check and I was like,

1065
01:02:40,599 --> 01:02:43,599
whoa wait a minute, go back and read your text messages.

1066
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:47,199
That's what I called. You didn't answer the phone. He's like, well,

1067
01:02:47,199 --> 01:02:50,079
we were making breakfast and getting ready for school homeschool,

1068
01:02:50,599 --> 01:02:52,760
And I like, it doesn't matter. You didn't answer your

1069
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,880
phone after those text messages. What am I to think?

1070
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:59,920
I just lost my sister. I don't want to have

1071
01:03:00,119 --> 01:03:03,960
to go through this again. And so he got mad

1072
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:06,519
at me for that, and I called another time, and

1073
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,800
I don't know whatever came of that. And then the

1074
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:16,079
one time I called and the police officer whom I

1075
01:03:16,159 --> 01:03:20,559
don't remember his name, said to me, why do you

1076
01:03:20,639 --> 01:03:24,079
want me to go out there? I need calls and

1077
01:03:24,119 --> 01:03:27,760
I told him my reasons why. He said, look, I

1078
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:33,599
have personally been out to that property between I don't

1079
01:03:33,639 --> 01:03:37,519
remember if it was six or eight times, and every

1080
01:03:37,559 --> 01:03:40,880
time I go out there, everything is fine. And I said,

1081
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:44,199
of course they're fine. Of course they're fine. They're not

1082
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:47,960
going to tell you anything different. And he said, you know,

1083
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:50,880
the last time I went out there him they were

1084
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:54,760
going out for a run and he would not go

1085
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:58,400
out there. And the next time I got a phone

1086
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:02,679
call from some somehow I would have to go back

1087
01:04:02,719 --> 01:04:07,639
and revisit. But the grandparents. I've gotten in touch with

1088
01:04:07,679 --> 01:04:13,639
the grandparents over the grandkids, and I said, look, anything

1089
01:04:13,679 --> 01:04:16,400
you need you need me to get there, I can

1090
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,719
be there. You just need to let me know. So

1091
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:22,159
they called me and they said, look, we had an

1092
01:04:22,159 --> 01:04:27,199
instance with Eric yesterday, and if we need you to

1093
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:30,360
go to the feat with the grandchildren, can we can

1094
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,840
you go absolutely in a harpy. I need three hours

1095
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:37,920
notice and I can be there. And they said, okay,

1096
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:43,920
we have some cousin of the grandparents that lives in

1097
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:50,920
Seattle and she you know, she's retired, and she said,

1098
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,760
you know, she if she needed to, she could get

1099
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,639
the kids. But if she couldn't get there, could you

1100
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:02,280
in a harpy. So the next morning comes and I'm

1101
01:05:02,559 --> 01:05:06,440
on my way to work and the grandparents called me

1102
01:05:07,039 --> 01:05:08,719
and she said, we can't get a hold of the

1103
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:16,519
relative in Seattle. Could you please go the the police department.

1104
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:22,320
They have the children, and I guess Eric was going

1105
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:28,000
to kill himself. And the little boy called the grandparents

1106
01:05:28,039 --> 01:05:31,559
and said, Dad's really sick. He's growing up. He won't

1107
01:05:31,599 --> 01:05:36,519
go to the hospital and the grandmother. They called the

1108
01:05:36,559 --> 01:05:44,559
grandparents and the grandmother told, you know, I think it's

1109
01:05:44,639 --> 01:05:48,280
time that you need to call nine one one. Eric

1110
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:52,960
overheard that and he said, you're not calling nine one one.

1111
01:05:53,079 --> 01:05:56,360
He put himself in the bedroom. He locked to the

1112
01:05:56,440 --> 01:06:01,639
door and was outside just saying, Dad, we love you,

1113
01:06:01,679 --> 01:06:06,360
don't do this, We need you, and you know, the

1114
01:06:07,119 --> 01:06:12,599
grandmother stayed on the phone, with which the grandfather called

1115
01:06:12,639 --> 01:06:17,719
the police from wesconfin. He's calling the police, and they came.

1116
01:06:18,079 --> 01:06:23,559
Apparently Eric had passed out, and they told the children

1117
01:06:23,599 --> 01:06:25,800
to run, you know, run to the top of the

1118
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:29,400
hill that they're there, and the children did that, and

1119
01:06:29,559 --> 01:06:33,440
they took them to the police station. So in the meantime,

1120
01:06:34,199 --> 01:06:38,199
now I don't I don't even believe they went into

1121
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,800
the house. I you know, I don't believe that they did.

1122
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:44,639
They took the children, went back to the police station.

1123
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:48,840
I'm on now. The grandmother called me. I now flipped

1124
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:51,760
the U turn and headed to Seattle. Called my husband

1125
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:56,000
to let him know. Then the Social Service called me

1126
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:59,599
and said, in order for you to take the children,

1127
01:06:59,719 --> 01:07:03,239
we need you and your husband's license. We need some

1128
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:07,480
information and we need to have somebody come and inspect

1129
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:11,119
your home. I said, whatever you need. My husband sent,

1130
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:15,039
you know, he sent everything they needed. He said, hey,

1131
01:07:15,079 --> 01:07:18,239
look let's let me know. I'll leave warp so they

1132
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:23,039
can inspect. We have two empty bedrooms with beds and whatnot.

1133
01:07:24,159 --> 01:07:27,280
We have room for the kids. You know, whatever you need,

1134
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:30,440
he said, I will be there. You go and take

1135
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,400
care of the children. I arrived at gig Harbor at

1136
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:37,920
the police station, and the police are like, didn't anybody

1137
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:43,039
call you? And I said no, And he said, CPS

1138
01:07:43,079 --> 01:07:45,920
took the children. They're now in Tacoma. I said, you

1139
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:51,559
are kidding me. That's another forty five minutes back in

1140
01:07:51,599 --> 01:07:55,039
my direction that I could have already been there, and

1141
01:07:55,800 --> 01:08:00,599
I was furious, and they were very kind, but I

1142
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:04,199
let them know that the last time I did a

1143
01:08:04,199 --> 01:08:07,159
well check, this is why I did a well check,

1144
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:10,000
and one of you told me you were not going,

1145
01:08:10,079 --> 01:08:13,159
and this is why we're here today. And they gave

1146
01:08:13,239 --> 01:08:18,560
me the address of the children's services. I drove back there,

1147
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:23,920
and then I was informed that I could not take

1148
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:27,760
the children. They were going to Seattle and they needed

1149
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:31,960
to leave. And I said, why can't I take the children?

1150
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:36,079
And they said, well, you live in Oregon and not

1151
01:08:36,279 --> 01:08:39,520
in Washington. And I said, you couldn't have told me

1152
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:44,279
this all my way here. You wanted all of mine

1153
01:08:44,279 --> 01:08:46,960
and my husband's information. You wanted to do a background

1154
01:08:47,039 --> 01:08:50,039
check and go to my home. You knew we lived

1155
01:08:50,039 --> 01:08:54,239
in Oregon. You had our driver of life. And they said,

1156
01:08:54,239 --> 01:08:59,159
I'm sorry. The relative, the distant cousins and the children

1157
01:08:59,199 --> 01:09:02,199
met this cousin one time a few years ago for

1158
01:09:02,319 --> 01:09:06,600
Thanksgiving and that was it. They knew no other connection

1159
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:12,560
to this person. And I was livid. I said, you

1160
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:15,079
have to at least let me see the children. They

1161
01:09:15,119 --> 01:09:17,439
did let me see the children. I called the grandmother

1162
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:19,920
in Wisconsin and I'm like, what is going on? Why

1163
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:23,000
won't they let me take the kids? I was livid

1164
01:09:23,279 --> 01:09:30,199
at this whole situation could have been solved, and they

1165
01:09:30,319 --> 01:09:34,000
would not let me take them because I lived across,

1166
01:09:34,399 --> 01:09:37,520
you know, out of state lines, and so I was like, okay, fine,

1167
01:09:38,359 --> 01:09:40,680
I said, I'll get a hotel and I'll stay here.

1168
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:42,720
They said how long are you willing to stay? And

1169
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:45,439
I said how long do I need to stay? And

1170
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:50,000
they said, well, probably like a week. Okay, fine, I'll

1171
01:09:50,039 --> 01:09:52,920
stay a week. And I even offered them. I said,

1172
01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:55,079
you pick the hotel, you can have my car keys,

1173
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:59,439
just let me keep the kids with me, and they

1174
01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:02,560
said no, no, the other lady had already been approved.

1175
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:05,560
We're taking them to the cousin's house. And that's that.

1176
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:11,159
And the you know, the little boy was just hugging me,

1177
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:15,640
and the social worker said, come on, we need to go.

1178
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:17,640
We need to go. It's gonna take us like an

1179
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:19,880
hour to get there. We need to go, and she

1180
01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:23,560
ripped him out of my arm, took them in a car,

1181
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:32,600
and I just I can't even explain how I felt.

1182
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:36,880
I just broke down and sat in their chair, probably

1183
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:40,399
cried for two minutes. And I got up, I called

1184
01:10:40,399 --> 01:10:43,159
the grand and no, in fact, the grandparent was still

1185
01:10:43,199 --> 01:10:45,960
on the phone. I never hung up on her. And

1186
01:10:46,039 --> 01:10:47,960
I was on my way to my car, and I said,

1187
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:52,319
you have no idea, no idea what your son has done.

1188
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:57,600
You have no idea what he is doing, none whatsoever.

1189
01:10:58,399 --> 01:11:00,960
And she said, look, I'm going to talk to the

1190
01:11:01,039 --> 01:11:03,840
relative and see if she'll let you go up and

1191
01:11:04,119 --> 01:11:09,079
see the kids and whatnot. That did occur. So I

1192
01:11:09,199 --> 01:11:11,880
drove to this family member's home and the children were

1193
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:14,279
there and they said, door, we didn't think you would

1194
01:11:14,279 --> 01:11:19,279
come so quickly, and well they've probably I will probably

1195
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:23,359
was like thirty minutes behind them at this point. And

1196
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:27,119
so she did let me spend a little time with

1197
01:11:27,199 --> 01:11:29,960
them there, and I took pictures with the kids and

1198
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:34,000
we were able to talk and play a game or whatever.

1199
01:11:35,199 --> 01:11:37,800
And then the lady, well, we have to go to

1200
01:11:37,880 --> 01:11:40,760
the store and we have to get them some clothes

1201
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:44,399
and some food. And I said, well, I can go

1202
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:46,800
and get that, and she was like, well, no, we

1203
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:49,079
can go and get it. In other words, like your

1204
01:11:49,159 --> 01:11:52,199
visits over is what I felt like. And maybe I

1205
01:11:52,239 --> 01:11:56,000
did overstay my welcome, but it was just a long day, yeah.

1206
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:58,159
Speaker 2: And I feel like you were probably the only person

1207
01:11:58,199 --> 01:12:01,439
that had real genuine concern for the hits, which is

1208
01:12:02,119 --> 01:12:04,800
it's infuriating for me sitting here hearing it. Like I said,

1209
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:08,560
me and Mike have kids, and I can't imagine what's

1210
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:09,720
going through their heads.

1211
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 3: You know what, are they twelve and eight or nine?

1212
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:16,680
Speaker 6: Yeah? There, you know what. It's the time it happened.

1213
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:20,720
I think it was like aen eleven. You know, don't

1214
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:24,079
quote me on that, but it was. You know, I

1215
01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:29,439
was the only person that physically was in their life

1216
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:31,760
that they were familiar with at that time.

1217
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:32,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1218
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:36,199
Speaker 6: Had they called Gwen's friend that lived nearby, she would

1219
01:12:36,199 --> 01:12:39,800
have been there and got the children. But the grandparents,

1220
01:12:40,239 --> 01:12:42,880
they don't. You know, we never mentioned to them that

1221
01:12:43,239 --> 01:12:47,600
obviously we suspect that your son did something, or you know,

1222
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:50,159
we need to keep this good for the children.

1223
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:53,159
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it was.

1224
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:57,880
Speaker 6: You know, I called the family in Texas the whole time,

1225
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:00,000
and they're like, keep me posted, keep me posting.

1226
01:13:00,039 --> 01:13:02,000
Speaker 7: It would and you know, again they.

1227
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:06,800
Speaker 6: Were livid as well. Here I am there, the children

1228
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:11,439
are familiar with me. I'm willing to drop everything, stay

1229
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:15,880
in a hotel with these children until their grandparents came.

1230
01:13:16,119 --> 01:13:20,479
I was willing to do anything, and so we're the

1231
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:23,880
family in Texas, they also were willing to do anything

1232
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:29,079
to help these children. But I get they have a job,

1233
01:13:29,239 --> 01:13:32,239
and I get the system is broken, and it truly

1234
01:13:32,359 --> 01:13:35,319
is broken, because if that was the case, they would

1235
01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:38,159
have let me stay there with the children. If not,

1236
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:41,840
get in touch with Oregon. I live right across the border.

1237
01:13:42,359 --> 01:13:44,520
What do you need. I could have stayed wherever you

1238
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:45,199
wanted me to.

1239
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:48,279
Speaker 2: I feel like they could have solved that. Of all

1240
01:13:48,319 --> 01:13:51,279
the competent choices, they picked the least.

1241
01:13:52,239 --> 01:13:54,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I'm not saying the lady wasn't nice, but

1242
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:57,680
her home was not a place for kids. You know,

1243
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:01,840
she is an older, reach tired lady. I mean, very

1244
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:05,800
well with it, and she was kind. But her home

1245
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:11,119
was definitely clean and everything had a place, and you know,

1246
01:14:13,199 --> 01:14:15,640
it's not a place that I would have wanted children

1247
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:18,079
to be bouncing off the walls and playing.

1248
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:20,479
Speaker 2: And sure like not that it wasn't safe, but like,

1249
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:23,119
she didn't have kids, She wasn't prepared for kids, She

1250
01:14:23,199 --> 01:14:27,560
wasn't expecting kids. The kids didn't even know her that well. Meanwhile, yeah,

1251
01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:30,159
you have room for them, you have children, you've been

1252
01:14:30,239 --> 01:14:33,560
with them, through this entire ordeal. So you can relate

1253
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:37,399
to them, you can. They're familiar with you, and they

1254
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:40,359
picked the ladder of are the former.

1255
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:45,399
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it was like I was dismissed. You're done,

1256
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:50,119
I felt, And this is how I feel with Eric

1257
01:14:50,319 --> 01:14:56,359
and more so his family. We have this chess game,

1258
01:14:56,399 --> 01:14:59,239
and you're the little pond. When we need you, will

1259
01:14:59,359 --> 01:15:00,439
use you.

1260
01:15:00,439 --> 01:15:00,960
Speaker 7: You home.

1261
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:04,239
Speaker 6: When we don't need you, you're out. They in fact,

1262
01:15:04,319 --> 01:15:08,960
when they had custody of the children that time was

1263
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:13,600
the first time they took them back to Wisconsince. They

1264
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:16,039
let me have a rapport with the kids. I would

1265
01:15:16,119 --> 01:15:18,439
make some cookies and I would ship that to them

1266
01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:22,159
and I we would text, and we would FaceTime and

1267
01:15:23,079 --> 01:15:27,119
always monitored. Of course, the grandparents were always in the

1268
01:15:27,159 --> 01:15:31,760
background somewhere, and we had a good report. The grandparents

1269
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:34,439
invited my husband and I to come out there to

1270
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:39,479
visit the children. We booked I immediately got off the phone.

1271
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:42,720
We booked tickets hotel. We made sure it had a

1272
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:45,199
pool that the kids could swim in, because we were

1273
01:15:45,239 --> 01:15:47,800
told that children could stay the night with us at

1274
01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:51,319
the hotel. And they just asked that they you know,

1275
01:15:51,399 --> 01:15:54,520
they could call the children I'm like, absolutely, you can

1276
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:58,119
call them every day, you can FaceTime whatever. And we

1277
01:15:58,239 --> 01:16:01,680
had the car rental, we had planned, we were going

1278
01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:04,279
to arrive a couple of days early. We had things

1279
01:16:04,319 --> 01:16:06,720
we were going to do that were adult related, and

1280
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:09,199
then we were going to pick the children up. And

1281
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:12,600
we had made a whole week for the plans. It

1282
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:15,399
was like and I'm a planner, So everything was lined out.

1283
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:23,159
And then about three weeks before that, the grandmother told

1284
01:16:23,199 --> 01:16:25,800
me that they told Eric that we were coming, and

1285
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:29,439
he was livid and he did not want us to come.

1286
01:16:30,079 --> 01:16:33,000
The children now were not allowed to stay the night

1287
01:16:33,279 --> 01:16:35,560
with us, and we were only allowed to have them

1288
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:40,640
between a certain time, and they go to church on Sundays,

1289
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:43,680
and now this and that, and so the whole game

1290
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:48,920
plan changed, and I was furious. I agreed. I made

1291
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:51,800
my efforts. The kids knew I was coming, I had that,

1292
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:56,600
I had my tickets and everything, and then I was

1293
01:16:56,800 --> 01:17:00,119
I told them. I told the grandmother, well, it's probably

1294
01:17:00,279 --> 01:17:03,359
since we can't see the children very much and do

1295
01:17:03,399 --> 01:17:06,399
all the things we wanted to do with them, we

1296
01:17:06,439 --> 01:17:08,319
are going to cancel our plans.

1297
01:17:08,439 --> 01:17:10,319
Speaker 7: And so.

1298
01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:14,760
Speaker 6: Unfortunately I had to tell the children that we were

1299
01:17:14,840 --> 01:17:17,560
now not coming, And I told them, you know that

1300
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:21,199
kind of I told them the truth that Dad was

1301
01:17:21,279 --> 01:17:24,079
up bet that we didn't you know that we were coming,

1302
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:26,560
and he didn't want that. And I don't want there

1303
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:30,279
to be issues with dad, the grandparents and the children,

1304
01:17:30,399 --> 01:17:33,399
and but know that we were coming. Know we love you.

1305
01:17:34,399 --> 01:17:37,600
We will do whatever we need to do. You know,

1306
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:40,800
every time you needed me, I came when you lived

1307
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:43,880
in Washington. If you need me, I will come when

1308
01:17:43,920 --> 01:17:47,159
you're in Wisconsin. You need to let me know. But

1309
01:17:47,239 --> 01:17:49,920
I at this point, I don't want there to be problems,

1310
01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:54,039
and so here I had to let things. Children down,

1311
01:17:54,079 --> 01:17:56,600
like they didn't have enough disappointment in their life for

1312
01:17:56,640 --> 01:18:00,920
the last year. You just now created more. You know,

1313
01:18:01,239 --> 01:18:05,720
we did not go that. That was the first time

1314
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:09,600
they were taken away, and then this second time, I

1315
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:14,640
didn't know that they were my dog. I didn't know

1316
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:19,560
that we you know that they were even anything had happened.

1317
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:22,680
There was like a snapchat of like a chair, and

1318
01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:25,000
then the next thing I know, there's a picture of

1319
01:18:25,039 --> 01:18:29,319
a fireplace, which I knew that was at a cousin's house.

1320
01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:34,399
I knew that that fireplace, and I was like, something's wrong.

1321
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:38,239
You know, something is definitely wrong that they're not at home.

1322
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:42,439
And then finally, I think the grandmother told me that

1323
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:48,000
the kids were you know or no, not the kids.

1324
01:18:48,039 --> 01:18:52,600
They were flying to Washington, that they were going to

1325
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:57,960
get custody at the children, and I guess for legalities

1326
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:01,960
and until everything went through the court, they had to stay.

1327
01:19:02,039 --> 01:19:06,920
So they rented an airbnb and stayed with the children

1328
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:11,159
at the airbnb, and then Eric went back to Kenya again.

1329
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:14,079
I think that was the last time he was in Kenya,

1330
01:19:14,079 --> 01:19:17,359
and he stayed for quite some time. And I don't know,

1331
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:20,840
I'm like, how are you affording this? How are you

1332
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:27,600
affording a mortgage car? I mean, I don't know how

1333
01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:31,079
you're affording this, but unless your parents are helping you,

1334
01:19:31,199 --> 01:19:34,760
because they do have the means to do that. And

1335
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:39,640
so then the other thing is Eric said to me

1336
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:42,159
one time, he was like, oh, I'm like, what did

1337
01:19:42,199 --> 01:19:45,680
you do today? And I know I'm going back and

1338
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:47,920
forth a lot, but these things are like triggering in

1339
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:51,000
my mind. That's perfect, you know, I said, what do

1340
01:19:51,079 --> 01:19:53,439
you do today? He said, Oh, He's like, I've been

1341
01:19:53,439 --> 01:19:57,000
going to the bank. He's like this girl she had,

1342
01:19:57,279 --> 01:20:00,560
you know, I had to go to multiple banks. And

1343
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:04,000
I'm like, did you have to go take the death

1344
01:20:04,039 --> 01:20:10,880
certificate to multiple banks because of multiple accounts or multiple

1345
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:14,680
accounts at multiple banks? And he said, there are multiple

1346
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:21,319
accounts at multiple banks. So I think that Gwen may

1347
01:20:21,359 --> 01:20:25,680
have been putting money away somewhere that he didn't know about.

1348
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:32,000
I'm guessing maybe I'm assuming I don't know that. But

1349
01:20:32,319 --> 01:20:37,479
all of a sudden, he gets the new Mercedes for

1350
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:40,760
the new wife. And why did he let my sister

1351
01:20:41,520 --> 01:20:45,279
drive a crappy van that was on the verge of

1352
01:20:45,359 --> 01:20:51,039
breaking down at any moment, But yet you now have

1353
01:20:51,159 --> 01:20:54,199
the money for a Mercedes and he got a Mini

1354
01:20:54,239 --> 01:20:59,600
Cooper And I'm like they may not have been new,

1355
01:20:59,800 --> 01:21:03,199
but still those things cost money on top of mortgage.

1356
01:21:03,239 --> 01:21:07,319
And I was like, are you you know after Gwen

1357
01:21:07,399 --> 01:21:14,439
had passed and the cemetery they had her body, He's like, oh,

1358
01:21:14,479 --> 01:21:18,560
you can't go. They're not allowing anybody to go when

1359
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:19,359
she's buried.

1360
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:20,760
Speaker 7: And I'm like, okay.

1361
01:21:21,479 --> 01:21:25,960
Speaker 6: And I called the funeral home myself and they said, well,

1362
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:29,039
because of COVID, you can't come. I said, what if

1363
01:21:29,039 --> 01:21:31,279
I just stood in my car? I don't even get out,

1364
01:21:31,640 --> 01:21:34,920
I just sit in my car so that she's not alone.

1365
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:38,640
And they said, no, they will bury her and then

1366
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:43,880
they will call you. And I mean, I tried really

1367
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:46,279
hard to fight for allowing them for me to come

1368
01:21:46,399 --> 01:21:48,840
to the cemetery bright and early in the morning and

1369
01:21:49,279 --> 01:21:51,920
just to stay in my car, but they wouldn't allow that,

1370
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:57,760
and then she's buried. And I asked, Garen, were you

1371
01:21:57,800 --> 01:22:02,159
getting a tombstone or you and you need help? Will

1372
01:22:02,199 --> 01:22:05,439
help you pay for it. We'll you know, we'll buy

1373
01:22:05,479 --> 01:22:08,319
it whatever you need. Well, I guess he got one,

1374
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:13,640
but it didn't meet the requirement. So somehow he eventually

1375
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:17,760
got another one that did meet the requirements. But even

1376
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:21,520
the day it was near Easter time and I made

1377
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:24,039
the kids an Easter basket and my husband and I

1378
01:22:24,079 --> 01:22:26,920
were going up there to take it, and we were

1379
01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:30,840
planning on stopping at the cemetery first, and he told

1380
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:34,560
me don't get there before me. He said that the

1381
01:22:34,640 --> 01:22:38,479
kids and I need to be at the cemetery before anybody.

1382
01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:41,000
And I said, no, that's fine. I said, let me

1383
01:22:41,079 --> 01:22:43,760
know when you're done and then we will go and

1384
01:22:43,840 --> 01:22:47,319
we'll come to your house after. And then he texts

1385
01:22:47,359 --> 01:22:49,800
me He's like, well, you can go to the cemetery.

1386
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:51,800
I don't feel like I'm up to going. I'm a

1387
01:22:51,840 --> 01:22:55,920
mess today. So then we did go and he said,

1388
01:22:56,439 --> 01:22:59,079
I said, okay, we're you know, we're leaving the cemetery.

1389
01:22:59,119 --> 01:23:02,920
We're on our way to house. And he said, no,

1390
01:23:03,159 --> 01:23:05,199
I don't think it's a good idea you come today,

1391
01:23:07,079 --> 01:23:10,439
some mind, just not a short drive. And I said,

1392
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:13,600
do you mind if we at least drop the easter

1393
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:17,399
baskets off at the front porch for the kids to

1394
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:22,119
have them. And then he's like, oh, he's like, you

1395
01:23:22,279 --> 01:23:25,840
can come. He's like, I thought about it. It probably

1396
01:23:25,840 --> 01:23:28,119
was a bad idea to tell you no, not to come.

1397
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:32,560
That's great, And so we did. Yeah, we did get there.

1398
01:23:33,439 --> 01:23:38,560
He had a suit on, sunglasses and he was sitting

1399
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:41,720
on the couch and I went and, you know, with

1400
01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:44,079
the kids, and we were in their rooms playing and

1401
01:23:44,119 --> 01:23:49,560
my husband was talking to him, and the whole time

1402
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:53,279
he wore a sunglass. This is obviously he was drunk.

1403
01:23:54,000 --> 01:23:57,239
And he had a beer in his hand and he

1404
01:23:57,399 --> 01:23:59,199
was like, asked my husband, do you want a beer?

1405
01:23:59,319 --> 01:24:02,239
And my husband's like, no, man, I don't drink and drive.

1406
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:07,399
And he was like, okay, he's talking about youthless stuff,

1407
01:24:08,039 --> 01:24:13,119
and you know, my husband's like, you know, unreal, is

1408
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:17,960
he's unreal? There were beer cams lined up in their

1409
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:20,880
back property, like he had taken the gun out because

1410
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:23,640
he had an obsession with them. He'd taken the gun

1411
01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:30,239
out and was shooting them and he had numerous weapons.

1412
01:24:30,640 --> 01:24:35,359
Oh my gosh, it's when his parents the first time

1413
01:24:35,399 --> 01:24:38,960
they were taken again, I'm backtracking. Oh, the first time

1414
01:24:39,079 --> 01:24:43,000
that they were taken away, and the grandfather flew in

1415
01:24:43,039 --> 01:24:49,600
to the relative's house and stayed with them. We had

1416
01:24:49,720 --> 01:24:54,119
met him up in Washington and got to say goodbye

1417
01:24:54,159 --> 01:24:57,880
to the kids before they were going to Wisconsin. And

1418
01:24:58,239 --> 01:25:00,720
at that point, Eric was like, maybe I'm going to

1419
01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:03,800
stay in Kenya, maybe this, maybe that, Maybe I'm going

1420
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:05,800
to run out the house. And I'm like, he's going

1421
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:07,600
to run out the house. I said, he has all

1422
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:11,920
the children's pictures, the children sing. He's like, yeah, we're

1423
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:13,399
going to They're going to put them in a shed.

1424
01:25:13,399 --> 01:25:15,279
And I'm like, the shut out back of the metal.

1425
01:25:15,319 --> 01:25:17,840
We live in the Northwest where everything is going to

1426
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:23,239
be ruined. So the grandfather let us take like all

1427
01:25:23,279 --> 01:25:28,000
the pictures of the children off the wall. He gave

1428
01:25:28,079 --> 01:25:32,119
us some sentimental family things that were there that you know.

1429
01:25:32,199 --> 01:25:34,479
I said, hey, look we'll keep them. We have the room,

1430
01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:39,000
we can just store them. And he gave me. The

1431
01:25:39,039 --> 01:25:44,119
only thing that I know that he kept as Gwen

1432
01:25:44,880 --> 01:25:48,880
was her wedding dress. And I don't know if it

1433
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:50,760
was in a closet, and I don't know if he

1434
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:55,600
intentionally forgot to burn it or not. But the grandfather,

1435
01:25:56,319 --> 01:25:59,359
he's like, oh, and here are these. You know, he

1436
01:25:59,399 --> 01:26:03,880
had the New Life wedding dress and then Gwen and

1437
01:26:04,479 --> 01:26:09,479
they was like, oh this point, the children are calling

1438
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:12,760
their mother by the first name. She's like, that was

1439
01:26:13,119 --> 01:26:16,680
that was Gwen's wedding dress. And I'm like, that was

1440
01:26:16,720 --> 01:26:20,479
your mom, and so I took it. I mean, to

1441
01:26:20,520 --> 01:26:23,159
this day, I still have it in the closet. I

1442
01:26:23,199 --> 01:26:25,600
don't know if anybody knows that it's missing or not,

1443
01:26:26,399 --> 01:26:29,720
but I haven't. But you know, the behavior of the

1444
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:34,840
children calling the new mom right away mom, and you've

1445
01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:37,640
seen in the wedding video where she like dropped to

1446
01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:42,720
the floor when called her mom, and it's like that

1447
01:26:42,880 --> 01:26:47,439
was very dramatic to me. And then now they're calling

1448
01:26:47,479 --> 01:26:51,760
their mom Gwen, and anytime they would refer to that,

1449
01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:55,079
I'm like, even though your mom's not here, she's still

1450
01:26:55,119 --> 01:26:59,760
your mom, so I will refer to her as your mom. Yeah,

1451
01:26:59,840 --> 01:27:03,079
and it's just as rar, I don't. I mean, in

1452
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:07,960
a matter of a week, you're now calling your mom Gwen,

1453
01:27:09,199 --> 01:27:12,159
and then you're calling this lady you don't even know mom.

1454
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:15,880
You don't think that was forced upon somewhere along the line.

1455
01:27:16,479 --> 01:27:19,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I have a son and a daughter that

1456
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:23,840
are those ages right now, and they don't think that

1457
01:27:23,960 --> 01:27:26,840
in depth about things. That's something that's being put into

1458
01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:27,279
their head.

1459
01:27:29,479 --> 01:27:34,439
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I know that. Yeah, they're so you know, like

1460
01:27:34,479 --> 01:27:38,960
I said, there are so many instance that I definitely

1461
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:41,560
need to get your like some of this paperwork because

1462
01:27:42,359 --> 01:27:44,720
I am way out of chronological order.

1463
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:48,479
Speaker 2: And no, that is fine, that's I'm glad that you're

1464
01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:50,359
able to get the stuff out. It doesn't have to

1465
01:27:50,359 --> 01:27:52,640
be in perfect order because it is you're going off

1466
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:55,319
of memory. But we definitely would love to see the

1467
01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:58,319
emails and stuff. And just like with any of our conversations,

1468
01:27:58,359 --> 01:28:02,319
if there's things you don't want to have publicly included,

1469
01:28:02,359 --> 01:28:04,640
you can just let us know. I do have one question.

1470
01:28:04,680 --> 01:28:06,359
We've been going for a while, so I don't want

1471
01:28:06,399 --> 01:28:10,199
to keep you all day in all of your interactions

1472
01:28:10,199 --> 01:28:13,439
with Eric's family and Eric's out of the family, do

1473
01:28:13,479 --> 01:28:16,760
they have any suspicion of you know, that their son

1474
01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:20,560
or their brother anything is involved in this somehow? Are

1475
01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:24,039
they just kind of disassociating from that potential.

1476
01:28:25,520 --> 01:28:29,479
Speaker 6: I don't think that they know. Then again, this is

1477
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:35,399
a family of they raised him, so they're very short

1478
01:28:35,479 --> 01:28:41,399
and brief, and I honestly, after the second time the

1479
01:28:41,479 --> 01:28:44,720
children were taken away, I've stepped back from them. She

1480
01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:48,560
did say, well, you could always go to Wisconsin on vacation,

1481
01:28:48,720 --> 01:28:52,079
and I said, no, we tried that once before that

1482
01:28:52,119 --> 01:28:52,800
didn't work out.

1483
01:28:53,159 --> 01:28:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds very similar to stuff that Eric was doing, like, Okay,

1484
01:28:56,520 --> 01:28:58,800
we're into this and then last minute get very controlling

1485
01:28:58,920 --> 01:29:02,640
and consolidating power over them almost And.

1486
01:29:03,319 --> 01:29:08,319
Speaker 6: That's exactly how I feel that they are there. I

1487
01:29:08,439 --> 01:29:12,520
feel that they like to control this situation. They only

1488
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:17,359
let you know what they want you to know. It's

1489
01:29:17,560 --> 01:29:20,800
very so I've stepped away from my own mental health,

1490
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:25,039
I've stepped away from being in touch with them. I

1491
01:29:25,159 --> 01:29:29,720
don't I don't know what they feel, what they think,

1492
01:29:30,079 --> 01:29:34,439
other than the dad firsthand got to see. He told

1493
01:29:34,520 --> 01:29:38,039
us he was pulling alcohol bottles out of the wheelwheel

1494
01:29:38,159 --> 01:29:42,520
of a car that they were in the bushes. He's like,

1495
01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:45,680
we have I have this bottle of wine. If you

1496
01:29:45,720 --> 01:29:49,079
guys want it, We're like, no, thanks. And I mean

1497
01:29:49,159 --> 01:29:51,920
he went through the house while he was staying there

1498
01:29:51,960 --> 01:29:56,199
with the kids when Eric was in Kenya and cleaned

1499
01:29:56,239 --> 01:30:01,000
out the house of everything. But we all know, and

1500
01:30:01,079 --> 01:30:06,199
I've told this to the grandparents. Eric needs professional help.

1501
01:30:06,800 --> 01:30:10,239
Not a week in the hospital, not a day treatment.

1502
01:30:10,720 --> 01:30:16,359
He needs to physically go for months to rehab and

1503
01:30:16,439 --> 01:30:20,159
get help. He's not going to any other way. He's

1504
01:30:20,159 --> 01:30:23,880
not going to sober up. He's a good actor. No, no,

1505
01:30:24,039 --> 01:30:26,960
I quit drinking. Nope, nope. And the next thing we're

1506
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:31,439
in this rent, wash and repeat cycle. And he's just

1507
01:30:31,479 --> 01:30:34,239
an actor. And I think that he tells the parents

1508
01:30:34,279 --> 01:30:38,000
whatever they want to hear. And the parents are a

1509
01:30:38,039 --> 01:30:41,439
little nice even that aspect and believe him. But again

1510
01:30:41,479 --> 01:30:45,079
they are controlling. They have been nice to me, so

1511
01:30:45,279 --> 01:30:49,880
I'll keep it at that for them, for these children.

1512
01:30:50,640 --> 01:30:55,600
But they raised him, and if they raised him and

1513
01:30:56,159 --> 01:30:57,800
he acts like this, what are they like?

1514
01:30:58,359 --> 01:31:00,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I will say.

1515
01:31:01,119 --> 01:31:03,760
Speaker 2: When we first heard about this case from an acquaintance,

1516
01:31:03,840 --> 01:31:06,479
I have that's connected to somebody who's close to Gwen.

1517
01:31:07,119 --> 01:31:10,720
I didn't expect to get as emotionally invested in it

1518
01:31:10,760 --> 01:31:13,640
as I have. And what I can say i'd say

1519
01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:16,479
on behalf of Mike and I is I'm very grateful

1520
01:31:16,520 --> 01:31:20,359
that you were there for those children. I would say,

1521
01:31:20,479 --> 01:31:23,880
from what it sounds like, you showed them genuine concern

1522
01:31:23,960 --> 01:31:27,800
and love. And if there's any silver lining to that,

1523
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:31,319
they still do have somebody that has their well being

1524
01:31:31,640 --> 01:31:35,000
as at the forefront, and that's you and Don and

1525
01:31:35,039 --> 01:31:37,800
the people who are close to Gwen that truly do care,

1526
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:40,399
and I would say are the most normal thing that

1527
01:31:40,399 --> 01:31:41,960
they have going in their life right now.

1528
01:31:43,520 --> 01:31:47,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, I will say that these felt first

1529
01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:52,039
of I I kind of when the podcast first was

1530
01:31:53,039 --> 01:31:56,720
made known to me, I was like, what, you know,

1531
01:31:57,079 --> 01:31:59,840
what's going on? Who else knows about this? And then

1532
01:31:59,840 --> 01:32:02,039
I listened to and I'm like, WHOA, there's a lot

1533
01:32:02,079 --> 01:32:05,119
of gaps in here that have happened and they don't

1534
01:32:05,159 --> 01:32:08,680
know about, and a lot of people that have partaken

1535
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:11,560
in this and they don't know about. So I found

1536
01:32:11,560 --> 01:32:14,000
it kind of interesting that there are only bits and

1537
01:32:14,079 --> 01:32:19,640
pieces the gist of things. But then Gwen didn't have

1538
01:32:19,760 --> 01:32:25,720
contact with any family for like two years before she

1539
01:32:25,880 --> 01:32:30,520
contacted me. And after that point and after she passed,

1540
01:32:31,000 --> 01:32:34,199
her family in Texas were like they were all invested,

1541
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:40,640
and I was invested, and you know, it's just none

1542
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:45,119
of that matters. They just cut everybody out. Everybody out.

1543
01:32:45,199 --> 01:32:49,199
Like I said, I'm the only one. And I don't understand.

1544
01:32:50,439 --> 01:32:55,199
None of us understand why Eric said not for them

1545
01:32:55,239 --> 01:33:00,439
to have contact with the family in Texas, because the

1546
01:33:00,439 --> 01:33:03,319
the day before, they're like, I love you, everything was good,

1547
01:33:03,479 --> 01:33:06,159
everything was great, and then it's like the next day

1548
01:33:06,239 --> 01:33:09,560
cuts them off. It's just so bizarre. And I think

1549
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:15,159
it's because he knows that at any moment, Gwen's family

1550
01:33:16,439 --> 01:33:20,720
will be there, and I think that kind of scares him.

1551
01:33:21,279 --> 01:33:24,279
Speaker 2: I would agree that's again, this is this is speculation,

1552
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:28,279
but I feel like there's there's even for someone who

1553
01:33:28,319 --> 01:33:29,439
may be a sociopath.

1554
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:31,479
Speaker 3: Like I said, I'm not a I'm not a clinician.

1555
01:33:31,600 --> 01:33:34,680
Speaker 2: I can't I can't diagnose him, but his actions do

1556
01:33:34,920 --> 01:33:37,319
like there's got to be potentially a level of guilt,

1557
01:33:37,359 --> 01:33:39,319
and that's kind of what I read. And even with

1558
01:33:39,399 --> 01:33:42,199
the actions of his family, it's their son, so there's

1559
01:33:42,239 --> 01:33:45,079
probably blinders up, but I feel like the people who

1560
01:33:45,319 --> 01:33:50,680
are controlling and quote unquote taking his side on this issue,

1561
01:33:51,199 --> 01:33:53,319
there's something there. I feel like that they in the

1562
01:33:53,359 --> 01:33:55,760
back of their head and their gut is like, this

1563
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:56,520
isn't right.

1564
01:33:57,279 --> 01:33:58,800
Speaker 3: And that's why it's so weird.

1565
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:01,079
Speaker 2: And it feels weird because it's like the elephant in

1566
01:34:01,119 --> 01:34:03,560
the room that they don't want to point out. And

1567
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:06,880
the only way that they can not feel that is

1568
01:34:06,920 --> 01:34:09,399
to cut off all the people that are associated with

1569
01:34:09,479 --> 01:34:11,359
the victim of this potential crime.

1570
01:34:11,960 --> 01:34:17,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, I did what any family member

1571
01:34:18,319 --> 01:34:21,239
they care of about another family member would have done,

1572
01:34:21,319 --> 01:34:26,439
and that's whatever you can And I feel that's exactly

1573
01:34:26,640 --> 01:34:31,920
what I did. That's exactly what the family and Texas did.

1574
01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:36,039
And they're far away so it's not as easy for

1575
01:34:36,079 --> 01:34:37,880
them to hop in a car like it is for me.

1576
01:34:38,720 --> 01:34:44,279
And I feel don did everything she could being a friend.

1577
01:34:44,840 --> 01:34:47,199
She reached out to me. It's like, hey, something's wrong,

1578
01:34:47,239 --> 01:34:51,000
and I'm like, you feel that too, Yeah, it's just.

1579
01:34:51,359 --> 01:34:54,079
Speaker 2: It's not And you guys are close to her, and

1580
01:34:54,600 --> 01:34:58,600
we're having people that feel that that are acquaintances of

1581
01:34:58,640 --> 01:35:02,920
the couple, that are like, I know him and something

1582
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:05,840
should be done because this isn't justice, and it's people

1583
01:35:05,880 --> 01:35:09,880
who are not close to the family. They're, like I said,

1584
01:35:09,920 --> 01:35:11,640
just acquaintances. I don't want to say too much to

1585
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:13,399
give anything away, because some of them just said, I'm

1586
01:35:13,439 --> 01:35:15,479
not a part of this. But it's people who you

1587
01:35:15,520 --> 01:35:18,800
would not expect to want to get involved. And you

1588
01:35:18,880 --> 01:35:21,359
know they're not in it because oh the podcast is

1589
01:35:21,399 --> 01:35:23,880
starting to spread. They want fame. They're literally saying, I

1590
01:35:23,920 --> 01:35:26,399
do not want my information shared. I just want this

1591
01:35:26,439 --> 01:35:29,720
to get resolved if it was a crime. And you know,

1592
01:35:29,920 --> 01:35:33,359
someone even said like I haven't met when personally I

1593
01:35:33,840 --> 01:35:37,880
am an acquaintance of Eric and there's something wrong with him.

1594
01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:42,039
And when this happened, we all knew that's and that's

1595
01:35:42,039 --> 01:35:44,560
what everyone says. As soon as something happened and they

1596
01:35:44,600 --> 01:35:47,800
found out, they said their initial instinct in their gut

1597
01:35:48,039 --> 01:35:50,560
was the same thing. You felt, the same thing Dawn felt.

1598
01:35:50,720 --> 01:35:53,159
I think it's the same thing the detective felt. It's

1599
01:35:53,199 --> 01:35:55,520
the same thing we felt just hearing the story, and

1600
01:35:55,560 --> 01:35:57,720
which is why we're like, hey, if we can do anything,

1601
01:35:57,760 --> 01:35:59,680
let's use our platform to bring light to this in

1602
01:35:59,720 --> 01:36:01,640
case there is foul play.

1603
01:36:02,159 --> 01:36:05,159
Speaker 3: So yeah, I can't say it enough.

1604
01:36:05,199 --> 01:36:09,079
Speaker 2: I appreciate you, I appreciate everyone that is reaching out,

1605
01:36:09,479 --> 01:36:13,439
and we're bringing forward more information than we did have.

1606
01:36:13,479 --> 01:36:15,079
Like you said, it was very spot in the beginning,

1607
01:36:15,119 --> 01:36:18,520
because we're going off social media posts and third hand

1608
01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:21,560
comments of people who are acquaintances. And because of that,

1609
01:36:21,640 --> 01:36:25,800
we're now getting very good information and new information that

1610
01:36:26,199 --> 01:36:29,479
I think the detective may not even have based on

1611
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:32,319
the reports, that could shed more light on this case.

1612
01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:36,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I'm truly I'm grateful for you guys, to

1613
01:36:36,720 --> 01:36:40,760
you know, and to whoever brought this to you know,

1614
01:36:40,840 --> 01:36:43,920
their friend's attention, to bring it to your attention. I'm

1615
01:36:43,920 --> 01:36:48,359
truly grateful for that. And you know, I can't say

1616
01:36:48,399 --> 01:36:51,880
the appreciation of putting this out there, and it has

1617
01:36:51,960 --> 01:36:56,720
brought so many people that felt the same thing together.

1618
01:36:57,199 --> 01:37:00,000
And there is somebody in their neighborhood that has been

1619
01:37:00,079 --> 01:37:01,960
in touch with me and she's like, just to let

1620
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:05,600
you know, none of us believe it was suicide. And

1621
01:37:05,640 --> 01:37:07,800
I'm like, these are people in their neighborhood and they

1622
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:12,159
just moved in this neighborhood like October and this happened,

1623
01:37:12,479 --> 01:37:19,399
you know, in Mars. It's bizarre, bizarre. I appreciate you

1624
01:37:19,439 --> 01:37:22,760
guys in the time and efforts that you're putting in

1625
01:37:23,520 --> 01:37:28,319
to this, and you know, anything that I can do

1626
01:37:28,439 --> 01:37:31,760
to help or I'm sure there will be other things

1627
01:37:31,800 --> 01:37:34,239
that will pop into my head because this has been

1628
01:37:34,279 --> 01:37:38,880
two and a half years of you know, nightmare for everyone.

1629
01:37:39,079 --> 01:37:41,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, just send it. You can always send us

1630
01:37:41,640 --> 01:37:43,479
whatever you want. And again you can always if you

1631
01:37:43,479 --> 01:37:45,000
want to get something off your chest that you know

1632
01:37:45,159 --> 01:37:47,119
on the record, just say that. And we have a

1633
01:37:47,159 --> 01:37:49,199
lot of people that I think, well, it makes them

1634
01:37:49,199 --> 01:37:51,319
feel better if they can just tell somebody, even if

1635
01:37:51,359 --> 01:37:54,319
it's not publicly. And all we're going to do is

1636
01:37:54,520 --> 01:37:56,920
keep keep shining a light on this thing so it

1637
01:37:56,920 --> 01:38:00,359
doesn't dim out, and in doing so, every time we

1638
01:38:00,399 --> 01:38:03,800
do this, more comes out. People feel more comfortable with sharing.

1639
01:38:03,880 --> 01:38:06,680
So even you coming out and sharing your story might

1640
01:38:07,119 --> 01:38:09,560
build up the courage and others that are staying silent

1641
01:38:09,640 --> 01:38:12,760
now to come forward. And all this hopefully will lead

1642
01:38:12,800 --> 01:38:17,439
to an investigation, you know, reopening the case potentially, And

1643
01:38:17,560 --> 01:38:19,760
at the end of the day, I think, deep down,

1644
01:38:20,199 --> 01:38:23,039
as much as we want justice, I think if whatever,

1645
01:38:23,119 --> 01:38:25,880
if good things can happen for the kids, that's that's

1646
01:38:25,920 --> 01:38:27,760
at this point all I really care about is that

1647
01:38:27,800 --> 01:38:31,159
they just can move past this and live somewhat of

1648
01:38:31,159 --> 01:38:31,840
a normal life.

1649
01:38:33,319 --> 01:38:36,359
Speaker 6: And that's truly all I ask for. If they never

1650
01:38:36,439 --> 01:38:39,800
have contact with me again, as long as they are healthy,

1651
01:38:39,960 --> 01:38:43,039
they're happy, they have a good life. I'm happy for

1652
01:38:43,119 --> 01:38:45,720
that because that's what their mother would want it, that's

1653
01:38:45,720 --> 01:38:48,800
what she would have wanted for them. But yeah, I

1654
01:38:48,880 --> 01:38:52,399
definitely I will send you, guys an email with some

1655
01:38:52,560 --> 01:38:56,239
information of a couple people, and then maybe we can

1656
01:38:56,279 --> 01:38:58,359
be in touch where I can just make copies and

1657
01:38:58,399 --> 01:39:01,800
send this media mail you that way. It's a good

1658
01:39:01,880 --> 01:39:04,720
reference guys behind us stuff.

1659
01:39:05,560 --> 01:39:05,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1660
01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:08,560
Speaker 2: Well, well, Dora, it was wonderful meeting you digitally on

1661
01:39:08,640 --> 01:39:11,119
the phone. Thank you very much for your time. We're

1662
01:39:11,159 --> 01:39:14,079
like at like an hour, almost two hours, so I

1663
01:39:14,119 --> 01:39:16,119
really appreciate it. I know you've been dealing with this,

1664
01:39:16,159 --> 01:39:18,319
like you said, for over two years, so to take

1665
01:39:18,359 --> 01:39:20,960
another two hours and repeat all this stuff I'm sure

1666
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:23,000
you've repeated a million times in your own head and

1667
01:39:23,039 --> 01:39:25,319
other people, and hopefully we can we can take this

1668
01:39:25,359 --> 01:39:26,000
and do some good.

1669
01:39:26,399 --> 01:39:29,279
Speaker 6: Well, I appreciate that. And again it's anything you need,

1670
01:39:29,399 --> 01:39:32,439
let me know I can help with whatever.

1671
01:39:33,439 --> 01:39:36,560
Speaker 2: Excellent all right, Well, well, thank you very much and

1672
01:39:36,760 --> 01:39:39,119
you you have a wonderful Fourth of July weekend.

1673
01:39:40,159 --> 01:39:42,279
Speaker 6: Thank you you too. Bye.

1674
01:39:42,960 --> 01:39:47,640
Speaker 3: Uh huh. So that was the entire interview with Dora.

1675
01:39:47,960 --> 01:39:49,720
It was long. We were talking about in the middle of

1676
01:39:49,760 --> 01:39:50,039
this thing.

1677
01:39:50,079 --> 01:39:52,399
Speaker 2: This is the longest episode we've ever done. Yeah, and

1678
01:39:52,560 --> 01:39:55,039
I apologize for my audio quality. I had to call

1679
01:39:55,079 --> 01:39:58,199
in that day because I had a crabby baby.

1680
01:39:58,279 --> 01:39:59,960
Speaker 3: You know, so I crabby baby.

1681
01:40:00,359 --> 01:40:03,199
Speaker 4: I cannot join Joe in person. But yeah, I think

1682
01:40:03,239 --> 01:40:04,840
we learned a lot of very.

1683
01:40:05,279 --> 01:40:06,359
Speaker 3: A ton of new information.

1684
01:40:06,680 --> 01:40:08,720
Speaker 2: If you're watching the video stream, we saw Andy was

1685
01:40:08,720 --> 01:40:10,960
pouring through a thick stack of paper.

1686
01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:12,199
Speaker 3: That is all you heard.

1687
01:40:12,279 --> 01:40:14,359
Speaker 2: Don Kind in the last half of the interview mentioned

1688
01:40:14,399 --> 01:40:16,479
the documents that she's gonna send us. We did get

1689
01:40:16,520 --> 01:40:18,720
all of those. We're gonna be scanning them in and

1690
01:40:18,840 --> 01:40:20,680
going through those. It's a ton of hold hold it

1691
01:40:20,760 --> 01:40:22,039
up real quick. I mean, look at this thing.

1692
01:40:22,199 --> 01:40:24,720
Speaker 5: About a half of paper here.

1693
01:40:25,479 --> 01:40:25,960
Speaker 3: It's a lot.

1694
01:40:26,680 --> 01:40:28,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we got to go through it and make

1695
01:40:28,079 --> 01:40:31,000
sure you know what's in. It is legal for us

1696
01:40:31,079 --> 01:40:33,680
to mention in public. There's you know, miners involved, where

1697
01:40:33,720 --> 01:40:38,359
we're going to redact that information and other personally identifiable information.

1698
01:40:39,079 --> 01:40:41,880
But eventually we are going to post that entire stack,

1699
01:40:41,920 --> 01:40:43,359
along with a lot of other stuff we have.

1700
01:40:43,640 --> 01:40:46,680
Speaker 2: There's some pretty damning things in there, yeah there are.

1701
01:40:46,760 --> 01:40:49,640
Speaker 4: There's some statements a little teaser. Yeah, there's some statements

1702
01:40:49,640 --> 01:40:51,399
in there that really make you think. And we're going

1703
01:40:51,479 --> 01:40:53,279
to post all of the stuff to our website that

1704
01:40:53,319 --> 01:40:56,039
will be available for anyone to download. And if you're

1705
01:40:56,079 --> 01:40:58,840
listening and have a podcast that does to true crime,

1706
01:40:59,399 --> 01:41:03,079
once it's on our website, you are free to use

1707
01:41:03,159 --> 01:41:05,800
whatever information you can to get this story out there.

1708
01:41:05,840 --> 01:41:08,800
That is what we've been telling people. Luminal, the podcasts

1709
01:41:08,840 --> 01:41:11,479
that we've been working with, they just did an episode

1710
01:41:11,479 --> 01:41:16,479
on Gwen and we let them use anything from our episodes,

1711
01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:19,720
and one of the hosts of that show listens to

1712
01:41:19,760 --> 01:41:22,119
our podcast and they've got a great show. I've listened

1713
01:41:22,119 --> 01:41:25,840
to several other episodes, and there's a couple other podcasts

1714
01:41:25,880 --> 01:41:28,520
that are are interested in taking this story.

1715
01:41:28,520 --> 01:41:31,000
Speaker 3: And that's our goal. Our goal is to this inspread.

1716
01:41:31,720 --> 01:41:37,279
Speaker 4: We want to get this the pressure built enough to

1717
01:41:37,640 --> 01:41:40,600
force the local law enforcements to reopen this case and

1718
01:41:40,600 --> 01:41:41,399
give it another look.

1719
01:41:41,560 --> 01:41:43,439
Speaker 2: Well, and I think part of it is not even

1720
01:41:43,760 --> 01:41:46,640
necessarily because we have so much new information. I don't

1721
01:41:46,640 --> 01:41:48,399
know really how to say that, but we have so

1722
01:41:48,479 --> 01:41:50,760
much stuff that we know they didn't have that when

1723
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:52,960
people talk to this said, we weren't never questioned, but

1724
01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:53,439
we have this.

1725
01:41:53,479 --> 01:41:54,199
Speaker 5: We think it's useful.

1726
01:41:54,239 --> 01:41:56,199
Speaker 2: They send it to us, and they want to remain

1727
01:41:56,199 --> 01:41:59,720
anonymous until they some subpoenas go on or something happens.

1728
01:41:59,760 --> 01:42:01,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, that will get the information out.

1729
01:42:01,399 --> 01:42:03,600
Speaker 4: So and I was telling these guys while this interview

1730
01:42:03,640 --> 01:42:06,399
was going on, I've been contacted by several people in

1731
01:42:06,439 --> 01:42:09,600
the local gigahar ri that want to remain anonymous, but

1732
01:42:09,640 --> 01:42:13,239
they they have other information and they're like, well, you know,

1733
01:42:13,680 --> 01:42:16,840
when this happened, I was thinking about talking to the police,

1734
01:42:16,920 --> 01:42:20,399
and then I didn't want to, And so they were

1735
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:22,680
on the fence about going to the authorities over this.

1736
01:42:22,920 --> 01:42:26,600
And the case is closed right now, so there's really

1737
01:42:26,640 --> 01:42:31,960
no harm. I think if anyone listening has information on

1738
01:42:32,000 --> 01:42:36,279
this case, call the Pierce County Sheriff's Department YEP, at

1739
01:42:36,279 --> 01:42:39,479
a minimum, lets them know that there's people still concerned

1740
01:42:39,520 --> 01:42:42,479
about this case and they don't think that the outcome

1741
01:42:42,479 --> 01:42:48,000
of suicide is correct, and if enough pressure builds, they have.

1742
01:42:47,880 --> 01:42:50,680
Speaker 3: To relook at it. They just have to. Now, Andy,

1743
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:53,359
you had never heard this interview before. You're a lawyer?

1744
01:42:53,840 --> 01:43:00,800
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, what is your lawyerly which is not a word.

1745
01:43:01,800 --> 01:43:04,000
Speaker 3: We know you're definitely not a lawyer.

1746
01:43:04,880 --> 01:43:07,800
Speaker 4: I am not a lawyer. What is your lawyerly opinion

1747
01:43:07,800 --> 01:43:08,680
on what you just heard?

1748
01:43:08,800 --> 01:43:10,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is it's pretty groundbreaking.

1749
01:43:10,800 --> 01:43:11,199
Speaker 3: There we go.

1750
01:43:11,760 --> 01:43:13,960
Speaker 5: Your listeners know this. They went through and heard this

1751
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:16,479
whole interview, and there's new facts that are being built,

1752
01:43:16,479 --> 01:43:18,960
and there's big facts that came from this interview. And

1753
01:43:19,000 --> 01:43:22,279
the biggest one that clearly jumps out to me is

1754
01:43:22,399 --> 01:43:25,560
the mention of the knife, the bloody knife. And we

1755
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:28,119
had kind of hit on this before. Gwynn had like

1756
01:43:28,159 --> 01:43:30,880
a laceration on her hand as she was leaving the

1757
01:43:30,960 --> 01:43:35,159
video on Facebook, it's noted that she had a laceration

1758
01:43:35,239 --> 01:43:38,000
on her left arm and we didn't really know where

1759
01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:40,039
this came from. Still don't know where it came from.

1760
01:43:40,079 --> 01:43:42,720
But a comment from I believe it was from the

1761
01:43:42,800 --> 01:43:44,880
daughter that there was a bloody knife in the kitchen

1762
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:48,159
that dad cleaned up is just incredible to hear from

1763
01:43:48,159 --> 01:43:49,479
the horse's mouth here. Basically.

1764
01:43:50,279 --> 01:43:52,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the fact is we were talking about this

1765
01:43:52,319 --> 01:43:55,960
while the interview was going the fact that law enforcement

1766
01:43:56,039 --> 01:43:58,880
didn't dig deeper on the fact that there was a

1767
01:43:58,920 --> 01:44:01,159
bloody knife found in the house, and.

1768
01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:03,720
Speaker 3: I don't think they knew that, well not at the time.

1769
01:44:03,920 --> 01:44:06,399
Speaker 2: Well he meant, yeah, he did mention it, right, or

1770
01:44:06,720 --> 01:44:08,119
he that's what it was, she said.

1771
01:44:08,159 --> 01:44:10,159
Speaker 3: She I'm trying to It was like an hour ago.

1772
01:44:10,600 --> 01:44:12,840
Speaker 2: She made comment about how he said, so, oh it's

1773
01:44:13,000 --> 01:44:16,159
it appears it was clean. And then when I heard that,

1774
01:44:16,159 --> 01:44:18,319
I was like, that seems kind of suspicious. You have

1775
01:44:18,439 --> 01:44:21,840
this guy who, to his own admission when he was

1776
01:44:21,880 --> 01:44:25,520
calling in, kept changing his story, was not acting right.

1777
01:44:25,760 --> 01:44:27,640
As a history of this stuff, They've been at that

1778
01:44:27,720 --> 01:44:30,720
house multiple times, so this this they have this family

1779
01:44:30,800 --> 01:44:32,720
is a record. This isn't the first time that they've

1780
01:44:32,760 --> 01:44:37,000
been out there for erratic behavior, potentially violent behavior. You

1781
01:44:37,159 --> 01:44:40,119
have this little girl saying there's been a bloody knife,

1782
01:44:40,319 --> 01:44:43,039
this person who's missing because at that point they didn't

1783
01:44:43,079 --> 01:44:43,520
know where she.

1784
01:44:43,680 --> 01:44:46,720
Speaker 3: Was so she jumped. They just knew her.

1785
01:44:47,399 --> 01:44:51,159
Speaker 2: So you have all these things going on and it

1786
01:44:51,319 --> 01:44:52,520
just seems like it was overlooked.

1787
01:44:52,560 --> 01:44:54,640
Speaker 3: This is again, I beat it to death.

1788
01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:58,359
Speaker 2: I feel like COVID fog was like to them, probably

1789
01:44:58,439 --> 01:45:00,640
wasn't a big deal at the time. You know, we're

1790
01:45:00,640 --> 01:45:02,000
the only explanation I can think of.

1791
01:45:02,119 --> 01:45:04,399
Speaker 4: We were talking during the interview that we're going to

1792
01:45:04,479 --> 01:45:07,520
try and get not a gig Harbor or Pierce County

1793
01:45:07,520 --> 01:45:10,760
Sheriff detective, but we're gonna reach out to local law

1794
01:45:10,840 --> 01:45:13,119
enforcement in the Milwaukee area to see if we can

1795
01:45:13,199 --> 01:45:16,439
get a criminal investigator who is currently working for a

1796
01:45:16,439 --> 01:45:18,800
police department to come on the show and kind of

1797
01:45:18,800 --> 01:45:22,520
review the cliff notes of this case and kind of

1798
01:45:22,520 --> 01:45:25,840
tell us their opinion of how they would have maybe

1799
01:45:25,880 --> 01:45:29,039
conducted the investigation. It's not going to be like their

1800
01:45:30,159 --> 01:45:32,600
professional opinion, but like their personal opinion, like what do

1801
01:45:32,640 --> 01:45:35,680
you think. Obviously, like a law enforcement officer who's not

1802
01:45:35,720 --> 01:45:37,560
involved in the case is not going to say like, oh,

1803
01:45:37,600 --> 01:45:41,319
he's a murderer. Yeah, he can tell us if like, oh,

1804
01:45:41,359 --> 01:45:44,840
this is pretty they conducted themselves appropriately. Yes, it would

1805
01:45:44,840 --> 01:45:47,640
be nice to to take them through chronologically also to

1806
01:45:47,680 --> 01:45:51,079
get his opinion on without the information they would have known,

1807
01:45:51,159 --> 01:45:55,119
so say, hey, at this point authorities knew this, what

1808
01:45:55,159 --> 01:45:55,760
would you do.

1809
01:45:56,079 --> 01:45:57,720
Speaker 3: At this point they knew this, what would you do?

1810
01:45:57,760 --> 01:46:00,000
Speaker 2: And kind of just and see if it falls in line,

1811
01:46:00,119 --> 01:46:02,680
because I'll be under persent honesty if they say all

1812
01:46:02,720 --> 01:46:04,640
the things that this detective did, Like, all right, I

1813
01:46:04,640 --> 01:46:06,720
guess that's how it works. Now we have all this

1814
01:46:06,760 --> 01:46:09,239
new information, does what does that do to you? Does

1815
01:46:09,279 --> 01:46:10,920
that make you want to look at it again? Is

1816
01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:11,840
that irrelevant?

1817
01:46:11,920 --> 01:46:15,960
Speaker 4: I think this is important because we want to bring

1818
01:46:16,079 --> 01:46:19,159
a professional in who does this, you know, in a

1819
01:46:19,159 --> 01:46:21,640
different part of the country, has no connection to the family,

1820
01:46:21,800 --> 01:46:25,319
to the case or anything. To hear their thoughts on

1821
01:46:25,359 --> 01:46:29,439
how this investigation was conducted. I think really could give

1822
01:46:29,520 --> 01:46:34,279
us a lot of meaning. And you know, was this

1823
01:46:34,359 --> 01:46:38,359
a hurried investigation because of COVID? Did they cut corners?

1824
01:46:38,560 --> 01:46:43,960
Like we're not criminal investigators. We were speculating on things, but.

1825
01:46:44,359 --> 01:46:49,079
Speaker 3: We're just famous podcasts. Yes, semi f But to hear it.

1826
01:46:49,840 --> 01:46:52,600
Speaker 4: I'm really hoping someone will talk to us because I

1827
01:46:52,640 --> 01:46:55,680
think it's really important to get a professional's opinion on

1828
01:46:55,800 --> 01:46:58,239
this case. And I think the family would really appreciate this.

1829
01:46:58,640 --> 01:47:01,119
It's almost like if you go to your doctor and

1830
01:47:01,159 --> 01:47:03,760
they say you have cancer and you're like, well, I

1831
01:47:03,800 --> 01:47:05,439
need a second opinion, yeah, and they all say no,

1832
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:08,039
you always do that in the medical world, like you

1833
01:47:08,079 --> 01:47:11,479
get a second, third opinion, like something in a case

1834
01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:14,199
like this where it's very sketchy, it's not like a

1835
01:47:14,239 --> 01:47:15,760
clear cut, like we don't have a video of her

1836
01:47:15,840 --> 01:47:19,359
jumping from the bridge. Why wouldn't you want second third,

1837
01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:23,039
fourth opinion on the investigation, you can.

1838
01:47:22,880 --> 01:47:25,319
Speaker 2: Tell that they're grateful for what they did, but you

1839
01:47:25,359 --> 01:47:27,680
can tell it with every single person, they feel like

1840
01:47:27,680 --> 01:47:28,720
there's something that was missed.

1841
01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:31,000
Speaker 4: And we really want to hear the side of the

1842
01:47:31,039 --> 01:47:34,159
story from local law enforcem and we've reached out to them.

1843
01:47:34,199 --> 01:47:35,960
We want them to come on the show. We want

1844
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:38,479
to talk to them. It could be.

1845
01:47:38,319 --> 01:47:40,640
Speaker 3: If this keeps snowballing, they definitely will probably have to.

1846
01:47:41,119 --> 01:47:42,720
Speaker 4: I mean, we just want to hear their side of

1847
01:47:42,760 --> 01:47:45,560
the story because there's a lot of gaps after hearing

1848
01:47:45,600 --> 01:47:49,960
Dawn in Dora's stories, there's so many gaps that were

1849
01:47:50,000 --> 01:47:53,039
not covered. I keep going back to the toll booth,

1850
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:56,520
and we've been informed from listeners now that they do

1851
01:47:56,600 --> 01:47:59,079
have it's just like Chicago they have like a speed pass,

1852
01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:03,000
but it would still it would still record a picture

1853
01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:04,560
of who was driving the car at the time. And

1854
01:48:04,560 --> 01:48:07,479
if Dawn was that incapacitated, there's no way she would

1855
01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:08,439
have been driving.

1856
01:48:08,199 --> 01:48:10,319
Speaker 2: Well, and you heard what she said about the vehicle

1857
01:48:10,479 --> 01:48:13,640
that it the police unseen sentate didn't seem like it

1858
01:48:13,720 --> 01:48:15,279
was crashed on the bridge.

1859
01:48:15,319 --> 01:48:17,239
Speaker 3: There was like wood stuck in the side and things

1860
01:48:17,319 --> 01:48:18,199
like that. Yeah.

1861
01:48:18,520 --> 01:48:21,359
Speaker 4: So I mean having that video or that picture of

1862
01:48:21,439 --> 01:48:24,039
who is driving the car would have been so valuable

1863
01:48:24,039 --> 01:48:27,239
in this case. I want to know from Pierce County Sheriff,

1864
01:48:27,279 --> 01:48:31,319
why didn't you go? And it'd be a very simple request.

1865
01:48:31,960 --> 01:48:33,720
I mean they probably do it all the time for

1866
01:48:33,800 --> 01:48:36,720
criminal cases. Why didn't you just go and request the

1867
01:48:36,800 --> 01:48:38,199
video from the bridge that night?

1868
01:48:38,359 --> 01:48:41,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean what I wanted to and they said it.

1869
01:48:41,079 --> 01:48:43,319
The guy said I saw another person in the vest.

1870
01:48:43,960 --> 01:48:46,479
Speaker 4: I want to know why they didn't. I just want

1871
01:48:46,520 --> 01:48:49,039
to ask the detective why didn't you go get that

1872
01:48:49,119 --> 01:48:50,199
picture in that video?

1873
01:48:50,800 --> 01:48:51,920
Speaker 3: Then ask him right now.

1874
01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:55,039
Speaker 2: We've tried no, no, right now, just ask into the microphone, mister,

1875
01:48:55,119 --> 01:48:59,760
detective Detective Christiansen, just detective Christiansen, please come on locations

1876
01:48:59,800 --> 01:49:03,479
on and tell us why that video and picture weren't

1877
01:49:03,479 --> 01:49:07,880
requested in this investigation. If if there's a valid reason

1878
01:49:07,960 --> 01:49:10,840
for why they didn't have that video, that might put

1879
01:49:10,840 --> 01:49:13,079
this case to bed, right I mean, or at least

1880
01:49:13,079 --> 01:49:15,399
put in perspective like what was happening at the time.

1881
01:49:15,560 --> 01:49:16,960
That's really I think, really what we want to know

1882
01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:17,680
is what was going on.

1883
01:49:17,680 --> 01:49:20,000
Speaker 5: And I think with the investigation, we don't know what

1884
01:49:20,079 --> 01:49:22,920
We don't know Right here, we have the police report

1885
01:49:23,039 --> 01:49:26,079
and now we're hearing more and more information. Joey said,

1886
01:49:26,159 --> 01:49:28,800
this case is snowballing, right, and it really is. We're

1887
01:49:28,840 --> 01:49:31,640
filling in the gaps and it brings up more questions

1888
01:49:31,680 --> 01:49:34,279
and what was done, what should have been done, and

1889
01:49:34,279 --> 01:49:37,000
what wasn't done, and what still needs to be done. Really,

1890
01:49:37,079 --> 01:49:39,359
so I think having someone who could answer some of

1891
01:49:39,359 --> 01:49:42,239
those questions, an expert, would move this along quite a bit.

1892
01:49:42,279 --> 01:49:45,279
Speaker 4: Even a you know, a spokesperson for the Sheriff's department,

1893
01:49:45,319 --> 01:49:47,960
anybody that would want to talk to us, because we

1894
01:49:48,039 --> 01:49:50,319
have a stack of papers right here that has even

1895
01:49:50,439 --> 01:49:54,159
more damning information in it that we were not going

1896
01:49:54,239 --> 01:49:56,880
to release just yet because we want to you know,

1897
01:49:57,119 --> 01:49:59,039
we got to go through it, cross our t's and

1898
01:49:59,039 --> 01:50:02,680
dot our eyes. But you know, this stuff, it's starting

1899
01:50:02,720 --> 01:50:03,439
a really.

1900
01:50:03,680 --> 01:50:06,359
Speaker 2: The few things that you found any when you're going

1901
01:50:06,399 --> 01:50:08,840
through it was pretty remarkable. We can't let's not talk

1902
01:50:08,840 --> 01:50:12,039
about it. Now, but it's some stuff. You called out

1903
01:50:12,079 --> 01:50:14,439
some things as like, holy crap, did he.

1904
01:50:14,600 --> 01:50:17,600
Speaker 5: Say that there's a wealth of information here. This certainly

1905
01:50:17,600 --> 01:50:20,640
will not be the last episode on the Gwyn Haselquist story.

1906
01:50:20,840 --> 01:50:21,439
Speaker 3: Absolutely not.

1907
01:50:21,680 --> 01:50:24,720
Speaker 4: And I think the overall impression I got from this

1908
01:50:24,760 --> 01:50:28,119
interview was Dora really kind of filled in the home

1909
01:50:28,159 --> 01:50:32,319
life of what Gwen was kind of going through in

1910
01:50:32,359 --> 01:50:33,760
the last few weeks of her life.

1911
01:50:33,960 --> 01:50:37,000
Speaker 2: And that was the part Dawn missed out. Don only

1912
01:50:37,000 --> 01:50:40,239
started learning about the negatives kind of at the last minute,

1913
01:50:40,239 --> 01:50:43,840
whereas she spent time with Dora working through these problems,

1914
01:50:43,880 --> 01:50:47,520
which to me again also shows she was sharing with

1915
01:50:47,560 --> 01:50:49,840
her the negative intimate.

1916
01:50:49,479 --> 01:50:50,439
Speaker 3: Parts of her life.

1917
01:50:50,520 --> 01:50:53,720
Speaker 2: That's hard to do, that's really hard to do with anybody,

1918
01:50:53,760 --> 01:50:56,199
and she was willing to do that. So then what

1919
01:50:56,279 --> 01:50:58,119
would cause her to up and do what she did

1920
01:50:58,199 --> 01:51:01,560
if let's say she committed suicide and she stops at communication.

1921
01:51:01,720 --> 01:51:04,359
Days before that, she had no problem sharing all the

1922
01:51:04,399 --> 01:51:06,760
negative intimate details with her, She was reconnecting with her,

1923
01:51:06,760 --> 01:51:08,840
She's talking about all those again, talking about the wonderful

1924
01:51:08,840 --> 01:51:10,840
things she wanted to do, and then she goes and

1925
01:51:10,880 --> 01:51:13,960
pulls this without notifying anybody, and then I think going

1926
01:51:14,000 --> 01:51:15,920
against what she said, she would even like want to

1927
01:51:16,000 --> 01:51:17,239
leave her kids behind.

1928
01:51:17,039 --> 01:51:17,640
Speaker 3: All of that.

1929
01:51:17,920 --> 01:51:21,439
Speaker 4: The statements from Doris's daughter, I think a very powerful.

1930
01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:25,159
Doris's daughter was I think seventeen eighteen nineteen at the time,

1931
01:51:25,920 --> 01:51:30,920
going into college for psychology, and she several times made

1932
01:51:31,000 --> 01:51:33,439
the point to say like she did not feel comfortable

1933
01:51:33,479 --> 01:51:37,039
in the home after Gwen's death. She felt it was

1934
01:51:37,119 --> 01:51:40,840
you know, she just had a bad feeling about the environment.

1935
01:51:41,359 --> 01:51:45,760
And did law enforcement in question her.

1936
01:51:46,399 --> 01:51:48,640
Speaker 2: I just and again I'm going to defend them a

1937
01:51:48,680 --> 01:51:52,119
little bit. Why would they It was a suicide and

1938
01:51:52,159 --> 01:51:54,520
this was yeah, the case was done. This was all

1939
01:51:54,640 --> 01:51:57,399
kind of after the fact. But that's again why if

1940
01:51:57,439 --> 01:51:58,840
we can get them to look at this again. We

1941
01:51:58,920 --> 01:52:01,319
have a lot of good new and information from all

1942
01:52:01,359 --> 01:52:05,439
the people in Eric's lives, Gwen's life, the neighborhood. That's

1943
01:52:05,439 --> 01:52:07,600
where we're getting all of this stuff. They're all like,

1944
01:52:07,600 --> 01:52:11,079
like you said, snowballing and we're getting people all the

1945
01:52:11,159 --> 01:52:13,359
time come and a lot of them don't want to

1946
01:52:13,359 --> 01:52:15,079
share unless there's some sort of subpoena.

1947
01:52:15,239 --> 01:52:16,880
Speaker 4: I think I think we need to do a call

1948
01:52:16,920 --> 01:52:20,359
to action to people who now just hear me out

1949
01:52:20,479 --> 01:52:23,560
to people who live in the area, people who knew Gwen,

1950
01:52:24,840 --> 01:52:30,560
know of this situation. Call the Pierce County Sheriff's Department respectfully,

1951
01:52:30,640 --> 01:52:32,239
respect peacefully, and respectfully.

1952
01:52:32,760 --> 01:52:35,680
Speaker 3: We're not calling. We're not inciting anything. In nowadays, you

1953
01:52:35,720 --> 01:52:36,079
have to be.

1954
01:52:36,039 --> 01:52:39,399
Speaker 4: Careful, but you know, like if you have additional information,

1955
01:52:39,640 --> 01:52:43,039
if you have you had an interaction with him or

1956
01:52:43,720 --> 01:52:46,640
Gwen or the kids, or anybody, if you lived near

1957
01:52:46,680 --> 01:52:50,199
them and notice something weird, call the Pierce County Sheriff's Department.

1958
01:52:50,319 --> 01:52:54,439
Speaker 3: Tell them like I had an issue with what happened.

1959
01:52:55,039 --> 01:52:59,119
Speaker 4: Call your local aldermen, call your mayor, like this, this

1960
01:52:59,199 --> 01:53:01,279
is not okay that this has been closed.

1961
01:53:01,520 --> 01:53:01,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1962
01:53:01,800 --> 01:53:05,520
Speaker 5: Even beyond that, Mike, we were talking about the wealth

1963
01:53:05,560 --> 01:53:09,000
of information that's out there, and initially on the episodes

1964
01:53:09,000 --> 01:53:12,880
we're discussing like ring video cameras or security cameras along

1965
01:53:12,920 --> 01:53:15,960
the way, there could be private data out there that

1966
01:53:16,079 --> 01:53:19,880
could absolutely even though the cameras from the bridge were purged,

1967
01:53:20,119 --> 01:53:21,279
there could be something out there.

1968
01:53:21,399 --> 01:53:23,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd want to see that ringing with the Ring

1969
01:53:24,079 --> 01:53:27,399
camera is that data doesn't get deleted From my knowledge,

1970
01:53:27,439 --> 01:53:29,640
because there's been an uproar with I think Ring is

1971
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:30,479
owned by Amazon.

1972
01:53:30,560 --> 01:53:33,000
Speaker 3: Now, oh, then they definitely have that DA.

1973
01:53:32,720 --> 01:53:36,640
Speaker 4: And there's been actual issues with police departments requesting data

1974
01:53:36,680 --> 01:53:41,560
from Ring without the occupant's permission and like without a

1975
01:53:41,560 --> 01:53:45,359
subpoenr or without a warrant, Well they need they need

1976
01:53:45,399 --> 01:53:46,920
a warrant to get that kind of So.

1977
01:53:47,319 --> 01:53:49,119
Speaker 2: I feel like some of the text messages that we

1978
01:53:49,159 --> 01:53:52,159
saw on there could give enough probable cause to maybe

1979
01:53:52,159 --> 01:53:54,079
get a judge to issue a warrant to subpoena Rings.

1980
01:53:54,159 --> 01:53:55,960
Speaker 3: So what I'm thinking is, is there others I.

1981
01:53:55,960 --> 01:53:59,279
Speaker 2: Say, the correct legal terms or close enough, so, but

1982
01:53:59,279 --> 01:53:59,760
I won't care.

1983
01:54:02,359 --> 01:54:04,439
Speaker 3: Like I said before, all my knowledge is from like.

1984
01:54:04,439 --> 01:54:07,000
Speaker 4: What we're saying is there needs to probably be a

1985
01:54:07,039 --> 01:54:09,239
coret order to get that footage from a person.

1986
01:54:09,239 --> 01:54:11,239
Speaker 3: So you only need probable cause to get a warrant.

1987
01:54:11,279 --> 01:54:14,079
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean there's no active investigation right now, right

1988
01:54:14,159 --> 01:54:14,439
so the.

1989
01:54:14,399 --> 01:54:16,199
Speaker 3: Case so it'd be like why are you here?

1990
01:54:16,319 --> 01:54:20,039
Speaker 5: We don't have subpoena power. Presumably someone could subpoena this

1991
01:54:20,199 --> 01:54:22,880
information as well, but what we really need is to

1992
01:54:23,000 --> 01:54:26,680
like move the needle on the official investigation. Yeah, and

1993
01:54:27,079 --> 01:54:29,680
more information will do that. And as we go through

1994
01:54:29,680 --> 01:54:32,760
this process, we're getting more and more. I think Door

1995
01:54:32,880 --> 01:54:34,920
did a good job of saying, like when I listened

1996
01:54:34,920 --> 01:54:37,119
to your first episode or your first two episodes, you

1997
01:54:37,439 --> 01:54:39,760
knew what was going on, but you were missing so much,

1998
01:54:39,840 --> 01:54:40,039
like a.

1999
01:54:40,159 --> 01:54:42,680
Speaker 3: Fifty thousand foot view of what was going on.

2000
01:54:42,880 --> 01:54:44,760
Speaker 5: And we see what we're missing now, and we're seeing

2001
01:54:44,800 --> 01:54:47,840
more and more by the week, right, so it's coming out.

2002
01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:49,560
Speaker 4: The thing I'm thinking of, too, is like, if I

2003
01:54:49,600 --> 01:54:52,960
was the investigator, I would have gone to Ring, who

2004
01:54:52,960 --> 01:54:55,399
I think is owned by Amazon. I'm not sure, and

2005
01:54:55,439 --> 01:54:57,840
I've said, can't you know? Or I would have gone

2006
01:54:57,880 --> 01:55:00,399
to Jamie this while you're talking, can I get a

2007
01:55:00,479 --> 01:55:03,560
court order to see the Ring footage from that doorbell

2008
01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:07,159
for the last for the twenty four hours before Gwen died,

2009
01:55:07,199 --> 01:55:09,640
and like the twenty four hours after she died. And

2010
01:55:09,720 --> 01:55:12,079
then I would have gone and I would have asked

2011
01:55:12,119 --> 01:55:14,960
all the neighbors in that neighborhood, do you have any

2012
01:55:14,960 --> 01:55:17,640
security cameras that face out towards the road? Do you

2013
01:55:17,640 --> 01:55:19,680
have any does anyone else have Ring video? Could we

2014
01:55:19,920 --> 01:55:23,640
potentially get video of maybe Gwen driving in her car

2015
01:55:23,680 --> 01:55:24,319
down the road?

2016
01:55:24,439 --> 01:55:25,000
Speaker 3: Well, here we go.

2017
01:55:25,119 --> 01:55:27,239
Speaker 2: Ring was acquired by Amazon for about a billion and

2018
01:55:27,279 --> 01:55:30,800
twenty eighteen The video doorbell maker has since expanded its

2019
01:55:30,880 --> 01:55:34,720
law enforcement partnerships more than two hundred police departments across

2020
01:55:34,760 --> 01:55:38,680
the US, allowing police to request video doorbell camera footage

2021
01:55:38,680 --> 01:55:39,479
from a homeowners.

2022
01:55:39,560 --> 01:55:40,039
Speaker 3: There we go.

2023
01:55:40,760 --> 01:55:43,319
Speaker 4: So if I was the investigator on this case, I

2024
01:55:43,319 --> 01:55:46,199
would be going through the neighborhood and asking neighbors, you know,

2025
01:55:46,279 --> 01:55:47,319
do you have a ring doorbell?

2026
01:55:47,760 --> 01:55:48,279
Speaker 3: Can't you know?

2027
01:55:48,359 --> 01:55:50,680
Speaker 4: Maybe at first he asked, can we take a look

2028
01:55:50,720 --> 01:55:52,800
at your footage? And if not, maybe get a cord order,

2029
01:55:53,279 --> 01:55:56,119
because what if we can get video of the van

2030
01:55:56,239 --> 01:55:56,800
dripping down.

2031
01:55:56,800 --> 01:55:59,079
Speaker 2: They were under the impression she drove to the bridge

2032
01:55:59,119 --> 01:56:01,560
and jumped, so they probably didn't even think to do that.

2033
01:56:01,880 --> 01:56:03,880
Speaker 3: But I mean, does it make sense if you look

2034
01:56:03,880 --> 01:56:06,560
at the toxicology report and if she's loaded up with

2035
01:56:06,720 --> 01:56:10,359
antidepressants that she could have after watching that like twenty

2036
01:56:10,399 --> 01:56:12,840
minute video of the drive to the bridge, that she

2037
01:56:12,880 --> 01:56:15,279
could have done that. I don't know. I'm playing Devil's apage.

2038
01:56:15,680 --> 01:56:17,279
Speaker 2: You know where I stand on this, But I'm just saying,

2039
01:56:17,319 --> 01:56:19,880
like in the heat of the moment, with because we

2040
01:56:19,960 --> 01:56:22,319
know more than they know, it's you know, hindsight twenty.

2041
01:56:22,319 --> 01:56:25,079
Speaker 3: It just bugs me, like if I wasn't it. It's

2042
01:56:25,079 --> 01:56:28,760
bugging literally, everybody bugging me. It'd be like, man, this

2043
01:56:28,800 --> 01:56:31,520
does not feel like a suicide. I'd want to keep digging.

2044
01:56:31,880 --> 01:56:34,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, like if I was not, If it's the beginning

2045
01:56:34,920 --> 01:56:41,800
of COVID and you think and you think, you yeah,

2046
01:56:41,960 --> 01:56:42,359
you're the.

2047
01:56:42,319 --> 01:56:43,880
Speaker 3: First person to be hiding in your house.

2048
01:56:45,119 --> 01:56:48,319
Speaker 4: There's gotta be other anyone listening. If you're a criminal investigator,

2049
01:56:48,560 --> 01:56:50,279
message us, because this just bugs me.

2050
01:56:50,359 --> 01:56:53,319
Speaker 2: We're going to get fake criminal investigators. It is their opinions,

2051
01:56:53,920 --> 01:56:56,600
I think is gonna message.

2052
01:56:56,319 --> 01:56:58,640
Speaker 3: Us Andy, Well, yeah it does.

2053
01:56:58,720 --> 01:57:01,039
Speaker 5: But I also get Joe's saying right now, I do

2054
01:57:01,680 --> 01:57:04,520
what The information we have sitting here today is well

2055
01:57:04,520 --> 01:57:07,520
beyond what they had, and we have the benefit of hindsight,

2056
01:57:07,560 --> 01:57:10,079
and there's always a story. When you look back, things

2057
01:57:10,079 --> 01:57:14,000
make sense that information wasn't available to the investigators. But

2058
01:57:14,279 --> 01:57:16,520
that's why it's so important what what you guys are

2059
01:57:16,560 --> 01:57:18,680
doing here, what your listeners are doing, because.

2060
01:57:18,520 --> 01:57:22,800
Speaker 2: What we are here, you're hearing anything good and bad,

2061
01:57:25,039 --> 01:57:27,359
or maybe he's doing some lawyer thing and be like,

2062
01:57:27,399 --> 01:57:29,159
I'm not with those guys.

2063
01:57:29,560 --> 01:57:30,079
Speaker 3: Right right?

2064
01:57:31,039 --> 01:57:33,680
Speaker 5: You figured me out, No, And I think more information

2065
01:57:33,720 --> 01:57:36,520
will be coming hopefully your call to action is if

2066
01:57:36,600 --> 01:57:39,239
anyone listening has anything of value, reach out.

2067
01:57:39,279 --> 01:57:43,560
Speaker 4: Please do We're not saying harrass your look absolutely, but

2068
01:57:43,640 --> 01:57:46,319
if you have information that was not a part of

2069
01:57:46,319 --> 01:57:49,479
the initial investigation, we know the case is closed, they

2070
01:57:49,479 --> 01:57:52,439
probably will not take the information out. But if people

2071
01:57:52,520 --> 01:57:56,279
are calling and they know people are still concerned about

2072
01:57:56,279 --> 01:57:59,840
this case, it just helps build the pressure to eventually

2073
01:58:00,039 --> 01:58:00,600
reopen it.

2074
01:58:00,960 --> 01:58:04,199
Speaker 3: That's all we're saying. Yep, if you have no you'll

2075
01:58:04,239 --> 01:58:05,520
catch more flies with honey.

2076
01:58:05,640 --> 01:58:08,359
Speaker 2: So if you're calling them and berating them, yeah, it's

2077
01:58:08,359 --> 01:58:09,159
probably they're gonna go.

2078
01:58:09,279 --> 01:58:10,359
Speaker 3: We're gonna We're.

2079
01:58:10,199 --> 01:58:13,199
Speaker 4: Not gonna post the numbers to the local law enforcement

2080
01:58:13,239 --> 01:58:17,000
or politicians. If you if you're just trying to harass people,

2081
01:58:17,000 --> 01:58:17,439
don't do it.

2082
01:58:17,560 --> 01:58:19,840
Speaker 2: And if you're if you're not getting anywhere, senetas too,

2083
01:58:20,239 --> 01:58:22,640
because we will continue to follow this and as we

2084
01:58:22,680 --> 01:58:24,319
get more but new and better.

2085
01:58:24,079 --> 01:58:25,439
Speaker 3: Information, kind of information.

2086
01:58:25,520 --> 01:58:28,399
Speaker 4: Even if you just had like a chance encounter with

2087
01:58:28,520 --> 01:58:31,840
anyone involved in this case that seemed odd.

2088
01:58:31,720 --> 01:58:33,720
Speaker 3: You should tell law enforcement about it.

2089
01:58:33,800 --> 01:58:37,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's the best thing you can do.

2090
01:58:37,680 --> 01:58:40,279
Right now, We're gonna keep trying to promote the case.

2091
01:58:40,319 --> 01:58:43,399
We've got other fellow podcasters that are are picking up

2092
01:58:43,399 --> 01:58:48,000
the baton and running with this story. And we're, like

2093
01:58:48,039 --> 01:58:49,760
we said from the beginning, we just hope the pressure

2094
01:58:49,760 --> 01:58:51,840
builds enough that all we're asking for.

2095
01:58:51,840 --> 01:58:53,159
Speaker 3: Is the case to be reopened.

2096
01:58:53,720 --> 01:58:57,520
Speaker 4: Obviously, everyone involved is innocent until proven guilty. We just

2097
01:58:57,600 --> 01:59:02,640
think the case was closed too soon. Yep, questions answering, Yeah, questions.

2098
01:59:02,720 --> 01:59:04,840
Speaker 3: More information has come out since I closed it.

2099
01:59:04,880 --> 01:59:07,920
Speaker 4: That if they reopen the case, if they reopen the

2100
01:59:07,920 --> 01:59:11,479
case and you know, take all of this additional information

2101
01:59:11,560 --> 01:59:16,079
in and then eventually rule it still a suicide case closed,

2102
01:59:16,760 --> 01:59:19,640
that's all we want. Maybe for me, that's all I want.

2103
01:59:19,760 --> 01:59:22,119
I know, I just want them to reopen it. That's

2104
01:59:22,159 --> 01:59:26,319
all I want. So make me Happylan for us.

2105
01:59:28,319 --> 01:59:31,079
Speaker 3: That's why they're here to make my happy. We know

2106
01:59:31,119 --> 01:59:31,720
you're listening.

2107
01:59:31,880 --> 01:59:35,399
Speaker 2: Yes, all right, Well we're gonna end this. We're at

2108
01:59:35,439 --> 01:59:39,399
two hours and ten Patreon next for a fun episode. Yeah,

2109
01:59:39,479 --> 01:59:41,199
we're going to finish up some more whiskey and we're

2110
01:59:41,199 --> 01:59:45,119
gonna do a fun episode on Patreon. So thanks again

2111
01:59:45,199 --> 01:59:48,119
for tuning into our show. In all of you for

2112
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listening and sharing locations unknown with your friends and family.

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Be sure to like and follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube.

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Subscribe on YouTube where you can have access to the

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extra content. Subscribe on Patreon to get access to sure

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content as well. You can get some swag if you

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do want to support the show monetarily, you can get

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that swag through our Facebook store and our website. And last,

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but not least, always remember when enjoying the beauty of nature,

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whether backpacking, camping, or simply taking a walk, remember to

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leave no trace. Thanks and we will see you all

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next time again