Speaker 1: Thousands of people have mysteriously vanished in America's wilderness. Join
us as we dive into the deep end of the
unexplainable world and try to piece together what happened. If
you are listening to Locations Unknown.
Speaker 2: What's up, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of
Locations Unknown. I'm your co host, Joe Erato, and with
me as always as a guy who when he eats strawberries,
just rips off the green part and the leaves and
eats the rest without even cutting the small notch out
first Mike Vanabogar, Wow.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Joe, thank you for that intro. Do you
know what I'm talking about? I do? Do you just
you cut the little match out right? I just cut
the top, the top off, the whole top. Yeah, no,
you don't. You just rip the leaves off and eat
the whole thing, and you'd even leave a little behind. Well,
I do it wrong, man. Yep. Thank you was a
bad one. That one was bad. I can't have all
good ones.
Speaker 4: No, but thank you once again to all of our
loyal listeners for tuning in. We've got Andy back in
the studio again.
Speaker 3: We welcome back Andy.
Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4: For doing another episode on Gwen, supposed to be the
fourth episode. If you have not listened to the first
three episodes, I encourage you to go back to episode
one and just work your way through all of our
episodes and you'll eventually get to them. So a couple
of Patreons supporter shout outs. We've got Crystal Haverfield, Clorinda Lenderos,
Jackie Ryan, and Kristin Irvin. So thank you so much
for supporting the show.
Speaker 2: Quick.
Speaker 4: We've got a special birthday shot out. So a friend
of the show, her husband is a little under the weather.
His birthday is this Saturday. We just want to give
a special locations unknown happy Birthday to Edwin Ham.
Speaker 3: Happy Birthday, ed Wine. Hope you feel better? Yeah, I hope.
I hope.
Speaker 4: I said that right, And I was thinking, like we
should have done something like they did in the movie
Waiting where they come and sing a really bad version
of Happy.
Speaker 3: Birthday, scream at the kid.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but we're not gonna do that Happy Birthday regardless.
Big news for the show, Joe, Big news. Between our
last episode, we hit five hundred thousand downloads.
Speaker 3: Oh rom button, I don't I don't have a button.
For this just a just.
Speaker 2: Oh, but I don't have any any like clapping button.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a pretty big milestone for the podcast. So
we're going to do a cheers to it, and I
encourage everyone listening at home to grab a drink if
you're not already grabbing on Joe, can you poor us?
Speaker 2: Yes, some of this Jay Henry and Sons Wisconsin straight
bourbon whiskey.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Like I said, it's a big accomplishment for us.
Speaker 4: Joe and I never thought we would ever get to
five hundred thousand downloads.
Speaker 3: You know who else didn't think that? Kleidus. Yes, eat it.
We don't even edit our show and we ain't changing anything.
Cheers to that. Guys. You're part of this too now.
I've been on several you brought us this case.
Speaker 4: So cheers and so hopefully all of you at home
just took a drink and it's not you know, it
would have been possible with everybody at home listening and
a quick little jab at Kleatus if you're on our
Facebook page. We got a really amazing review from a
gentleman that goes by the name Kleaidus, and it was
so funny we had to post it, and if you
want to hear our real reaction to that, we're gonna so.
Speaker 2: We shouldn't read it now, no, no, no, okay, we
won't even read that one.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 4: So we're gonna do a Patreon only episode right after
this where we're gonna go through a bunch of reviews
we have and give our comments on them and good
and bad, good and bad, and kind of counter some
of the stuff they're saying, including kleatus.
Speaker 3: Yes, Andy's gonna join us for that, Yes, can't wait.
Speaker 4: So yeah, if you want to hear that, you got
to join Patreon. It's only five dollars a month, so
very cheap, and you'll get a bumper sticker out of it,
and you'll get to listen to I think we're up
to twenty six or twenty seven Patreon only episodes, and
this episode will actually come out on Patreon tomorrow, several
days early, so you get that too.
Speaker 3: That's good.
Speaker 4: Finally, to wrap this up so you can get right
into the episode, We've got some new shirts out on
our Facebook store for the ladies that listen to the show.
We'll get other shirts out there as soon as we can.
It's just a lot of work to get it set up.
Speaker 2: So yeah, textiles are not easy. We've found you've like
either do drop shipping, which is noisy the greatest, or
we have to wear house yeah shirts where we're still
trying to get a studio, so we're not going to
be werehousing merch.
Speaker 3: Finally, if you is that our number there, Joe.
Speaker 2: If you want to call and complain kleid us, I
would prefer you call in person.
Speaker 3: We want to hear your voice.
Speaker 2: Yes, I want to hear what kleatus to slash chawed
yokel sounds like. The number is two zero eight three
nine one six nine one three.
Speaker 4: Oh and Joe, I wanted to ask you before we
get into the episode. You've got this amazing looking looks
like a pool party shirt on.
Speaker 3: Can you tell us at a little about that is?
I didn't mention the shirt.
Speaker 2: I'm wearing a shirt with pineapples with sunglasses on I
was going to I bought the shirt specifically for party
that I'm no longer going to for whatever reason, and
it's just.
Speaker 3: Pineapples with sunglasses, so it could be like my new
show shirt. I don't know. Yeah, it's a beautiful shirt.
I like it. We could all just start wearing shirts
like that. Ooh, I like that idea.
Speaker 4: Just change shirts every time I thought I had something
else to say. But people will leave reviews that we
talked too long.
Speaker 3: So you mentioned our Patreon, yes and all the other things. Yeah, Joe,
tell us a little about what we're about to listen to.
Speaker 2: So this is the interview with Gwen's stepsister Dora, And
if you listen to the last interview, we got a lot
of new information. We've now we were talking about it
before the show started. We've kind of upgraded from being
reporters who were just finding the information and doing the
foyer request, and now we're interviewing the people who were
there on the ground live experiencing this.
Speaker 3: So you're getting a.
Speaker 2: Whole nother dimension of this, the people, the feelings, the emotions,
the things that they were going through. So it's Mike
and I and Andy up into that point where just
making assumptions about what we thought based on the data
that Andy got us because he did most.
Speaker 3: Of that research work. That's all Andy, that's why he's here.
Speaker 2: And it was really unique to listen to the individuals
who were there dealing with it, going through the pain,
the agony the loss of their friend, their family member,
and they reached out to us because we were spot
on in what we were the path we were going down,
and they all agree and they wanted to come out
and reaffirm what we're doing with the case and make
sure that this doesn't go cold, that we can keep
this thing alive and do Gwen some justice hopefully.
Speaker 3: I don't know, was that Was that a good overview?
That was good?
Speaker 4: Okay, So we are not going to interrupt during the interview.
We'll jump back in at the end and give our
thoughts about what we heard. And this is the first
time Andy's hearing it, so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you are listening only, we'll have Usually
it releases a little bit later because there's a lot
to do with the video. In the last interview, we
had stuff pulled up for locations, so what I'll try
and do as it's going live, I might be searching
stuff up that you will be able to see. So
I highly recommend listening to it, but also going back
checking out the video because we'll have some source documents
and things that we've received that we feel are appropriate
to show on the show, and we'll just take it
from there. How about you introduce yourself to the audience
and tell us your relation to Gwen.
Speaker 6: My name is Dora, and I am Gwen's sister. Although
we are not sister by blood, it was through marriage
we grew about as sisters.
Speaker 2: We talked to her friend yesterday, and I know you're
still close with her and talking about this case. What
we want to get from you is a timeline from
your perspective of events leading up to the day Gwen
supposedly committed suicide.
Speaker 6: So I was re entered in Gwen's life approximately seven
weeks before she passed. I had disconnected a little bit
for twenty some years, and then we reconnected.
Speaker 7: Immediately, met, talked, our families.
Speaker 6: Had met my daughter and I went up to visit
her and Eric and the children for dinner and spent
some time.
Speaker 7: With them, and.
Speaker 6: It was everything seemed to be normal in my eyes,
perfect family situation. My step son told me that they
seem like real legit people. And mind you at the
time eighteen and it you know, I would have never
have thought anything like this would happen. And in the
middle of the night I received a text which I
didn't read until I got up in the morning, and
it was probably like four o'clock and it said have
you heard or have you heard from Gwen? And it
was a text message from Eric and I said, what
do you mean? Have I heard from her? What's going on?
And then I just immediately called him and he told
me when left last night, she's missing and search and
rescues looking for her. I immediately said, okay, I'm on
my way. He said, no, no, don't come, we don't
know anything. My reply was, clearly, you're telling me my
sister is missing and I'm not coming. I'm on my way.
I mean immediately, my daughter and I packed an overnight
bag and we've left. It takes us about three hours
to get there. We arrived and it was just like
very weird. When we entered the home, it just you know,
the behaviors was weird. I don't even know how to
explain it, but we, you know, we just like waited.
I thought, hey, somebody's here to take care of my kids.
I'm going to go look for my wife, or I'm
going to go and speak some answers. I mean, this
is a huge bridge, and there was none of that.
It was just like waiting and talking kind of like
reminiscing of when we first met, or when he and
her first met and talked about a table that they
bought and she's very odd things. And we received a
phone call that they were going to end search and rescue.
They were going to send us a PowerPoint and then
they would call us back and we would go over
the PowerPoint time that they had this. He was laying
on the ground and I'm like looking at the.
Speaker 7: Power point and it was for real.
Speaker 6: I asked at the end of the power plant, I'm like,
what do we do from here? I don't understand what
do we do? And he said, wait, there there will
be contact from I think he said the police or
a detective or whatever. And this is the.
Speaker 3: Person in charge of the search and rescue is telling
you this.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yes, yes, And so then we did just that.
I had my daughter try to play with the children
and talk to them like them. Now. I lost my
mom at a very young age, different circumstances, but so
I'm relating all around here and it was very just
very odd. He took, in fact, Jack Daniel's bottle off
the refrigera and said, Gwen want to approve of this? Would
you like a shot with me, and I was just like, oh, yeah, sure.
First of all, I'm not a big drinker. I took
a sip and I'm like and then he finished his
class in my glass. Now to me, I'm like, I
just was told they quit looking for my wife. Okay,
I can relate. But then as the day went on
and he drank, and I still was not putting two
and two together. I had no contact with anybody. I
didn't know any of her friends. I didn't know, you know,
in their neighbors, and they kind of live secluded and.
Speaker 7: It was just very weird day.
Speaker 2: So were you unaware of the domestic issues that were
occurring at all?
Speaker 6: Like I had no. I had no clue. Okay, yeah,
no clue of anything. In my eyes, in those seven weeks,
everything was okay, you know, no complaints. He went away
on business trips, came back, the children were in piano
and ballet and baseball, and there was no clue of
anything whatsoever. And they had just recently moved into their
come so it was to me it would have been normal.
But my daughter had told me that the little the
daughter had said to me, or sorry said to my daughter.
There was a bloody knife and some tissues on the
counter the dad dad cleaned them up, and I was like,
wha wait what And she didn't tell me this until
we were on our way home the following day, and
you know, I mentioned that to the detective and whatnot.
But you know, it now explained a lot how apparently
there was a cut on her left arm and how
she was holding her arm in the video. I believe
the detective said it looked like it had been cleaned up,
so that makes sense. What happened, I don't know. I
do know that the day the day of, she had
text me and she said, I haven't been feeling well,
going to the er.
Speaker 2: And this is Gwenn texting you, like, what was that
March nineteenth?
Speaker 6: No, it would I would have to go back and
look it would have been I believe the twenty. It
would have been the nineteenth or the twentieth. I would
have to go back and look at the exack date.
But she said she was going to the er and
I was like, please let me know. Do you need anything?
I said, I don't care what it is, I will
come up there bring it. She said, no, Eric. I
sent Eric to the store to get what we needed
in case we have to quarantine, and later to find
out that she didn't want to go to the hospital.
According to what the kids said to me, the dad
made mom go because she wasn't feeling well. I don't
know the test results. I've never seen them. I'm sure
the detective has them. I've inquired. He hasn't told me
physically if she did or did not have COVID. But
she did have an autoimmune disease called Throne's disease, and
from what she told me that it was not that
it was getting better, but she was feeling better and
her medication has been decreasing. So she was working with
some doctor there in I don't know if it was
in Seattle, I believe, but anyway, and then the last
text message, I just said, please let me know if
you need anything. She told me she was home, she
was going to go to bed. She was really, really tired,
and I unfortunately my last words were to her that
I like the idea of you taking an app and
resting and text me when you know when you're feeling better.
And that was that was it. Then it came his
text message lator that night, and then the unfolding of
everything thereafter so.
Speaker 2: You'd mentioned when you arrived at the home after you
said you were coming there that you felt like Eric
wasn't acting completely normal. Was there a point in time
from the point when you got there too, as all
this was unfolding, where you maybe started thinking that there's
something else going on.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, it was really interesting throughout the whole day.
I you know, I just.
Speaker 6: Was watching the behavior I would have if my husband
were missing at would have been crazy out there. You're
here with the kids, I'm going But there was none
of that. Behavior just kind of lacks the daiscle about everything.
He At one point, we were all sitting at the
table and my daughter said, Mom, the police are here.
And this is later in the evening, and I said,
take the kids to the room. And Eric went outside
and he was holding their dog, and I followed him
and I grabbed the dog out of his arms and
put it in the house. And the clergyman said, is
this Gwendolen house? Request house? And he said, yes, sirs.
And now mind you why he was while he was
saying this, he had his hands in a praying motion
and he was kind of shaking, and the whole time
He's like, yes, sir, Yes, sir, thank you, sir, yes sir.
And I am just looking like at him expecting to
pick him up that he was going to fall, and
it was really weird. They left and he goes into
the house and they have this big bookshel along the wall,
and he just started kissing his fingers and touching the
pictures of hers and saying why why, And he would
slip the pictures over after he would do that, and
every picture that it had of her in there, that's
what he did. And then he just laid on the
floor and he's.
Speaker 7: Like why why, And it was like kind of.
Speaker 6: A scary moment. I wasn't sure if I was going
to have to call nine one one for help or not.
And then he just got up and it was the
remainder of night. He just talked about reminiscing, and I
told him, I said, Eric, these children have been through
something tragic today. We need to have a conversation with them.
They you know, they're not comprehending. And he wanted to
do that alone. So you know, at this point, I
you know, I wasn't thinking anything. My daughter and I
had left and then we had come back, and I
don't know what he said to them, how he said
it to them. We stayed the night. That night, the
little girl slept on the fold out couch with my
daughter and I and in the middle of the night,
my daughter she's like, Mom, she said, I cannot sleep.
She said, I can't sleep. I thought that he was
going to hurt me. But backtrack after Eric must have
drank so much that I didn't see that he was
passed out on the couch. And I looked at her
and I said, do you think he had anything to
do with this? And I nodded over to him and
she said, oh, Mom, I watch enough shows that they
always say the husband did it, And you know, it
was just why I felt that way. It was his
behavior that whole day leading up to this, and now
I had time to sit and process, and yeah, I.
Speaker 8: It was very interesting. It's interesting you said that because
Don had mentioned and we kind.
Speaker 6: Of agreed with her that he to us.
Speaker 8: He really seems kind of like almost like a sociopath.
He's able to turn emotions on and off at like
a drop of a hat. And when the you know,
like Joe and I were talking with Don, the cops
showed up and said, like you said one of our
wives was missing or they found her, you know, in
the river, we would be devastated, absolutely devastated. I mean yeah, no,
and you would expect you would expect that from normal people.
Speaker 6: And he's very, very controlling of people, and he knows
how to manipulate. I mean there, you know, there's just
so many things that had occurred, and a lot of
them I have Unfortunately I should have kept the journal
of all the of them. But trying to live life
and then live this life was unbelievable. But anything major
that occurred, I did email the detective to the point
I hope he didn't dismiss anything that I was emailing,
because to me, any little fact as a as a fact,
it you know, I eventually, yeah, it was really weird
that night that you know, my daughter was just do
you think he did it? Why would I even say that?
This is the second time I had met the guy. Yeah,
why would I say that?
Speaker 2: Well, when you were when you're when you're explaining his
actions and how they There's some gut feeling, which we've
talked about it a lot in the show. I think,
to me, gut feelings should be listened to more than
I think people get them credit for it. I look
at his like thousands and thousands of years of evolution
of knowing when something isn't right. I think that's what
that is. So when you were feeling that, would you
tell if the way he was acting or the things
he was doing was more of an act than something
of some sincere emotion.
Speaker 6: I will be honest, I wasn't even thinking about that
at the time. Sure, I just for me, it was
it wasn't about me, but I was trying to prospect.
I can't believe this is my life. I can't believe
that this is happening. I've only had her back for
seven weeks, and my daughter and I were building this
connection with her again and the kids, and I'm like, now,
where do we go from here? And I tried as
much as possible to reinforce my daughter needed to come
home to go to work, and I said, I'll drop
her off and I'll come back, and you need me
to stay for the week or however long. I can
work from home, you know I can. I can be
here to help you. And it was thank you, Dora,
but kind of no, thank you. No, we'll be fine,
and we'll be fine. And then it was out of
the blue. Now, mind you, I remember Dawn. I met
her one time because I was already moved out of
the house, and one time I went back to visit
she was there and that's when I met her, and
then life went on. She I believe she has a
better recollection of the occurrences. But it was when she
got a hold of me, I was just like, oh
my god, somebody else. And then I had another one
of Gwen's friends message me and said, can I ask
you a question? And I was like absolutely, and she said,
do you think he did it? I immediately called for
this friend and started talking. So through that I now
have three friends of her three different states, whom I
never met or I didn't know of two of them
all saying the same thing to me, and none of
the three of them. Yeah, the three of them did
not know each other either, So it was very weird.
Speaker 2: Okay, so they weren't like kind of already in a
group and kind of egging each other on in any direction.
Everyone came to that conclusion independently and then started kind
of poking at it with the other people, like, Hey,
am I crazy?
Speaker 1: Here?
Speaker 2: Do you guys think this too, and that's when it
was kind of clicking for everybody exactly.
Speaker 6: Don was the first one to contact me. Then there
was a friend of Glenn's, the former coworker in Cleveland,
that messaged me and I was in contact with her.
And then ironically, I had asked Eric, I said there
was a fund in gig Harbor that Gwen had mentioned
to me. Can I have her number? And he sent
it to me and I called her and she she
knows a lot of things that helped Gwen in a
lot of ways, I think, more than what she shared
with me, to be honest, And she's not a toper
and I wish that. I mean, maybe she would be.
I don't know. But just like these three people, one
in Washington, one in Virginia, one in Ohio, none of
them know each other, and they're all saying the same thing.
It's just bizarre. And then I had a friend of
mine get in contact with Gwen's sister in law in Texas,
because remember I hadn't been in touch with anybody through that,
I ended up speaking with her and then, you know,
we have similar thoughts, and like I say, we each
have our own story of things that occurred. It was
just I can't even explain all the things that didn't happened,
from having a bonfire and burning mom's clothes to one
day I'm having a girl come from another country and
she's gonna sleep on the couch and we're maybe gonna
get together. And then the next week he's kissed a
girl and now he's marrying her and he invited me
and my husband to the wedding. Now why would I
do that? I couldn't even And I don't know if
you guys watched the video that was on YouTube, and
it takes the little boys like I'm here because my
dad wanted me to be here, and it was just bizarre.
Just the whole thing is bizarre. Now I met Mariam,
and really I had to park at the end of
the road talk to myself, like, door, you have to
be nice. This is what it is. The children are here.
I went there under good intentions with the kids. She
never she was very kind to me. But I look
at it like he would probably hear for a green card.
He probably wanted a wife. I don't I really honestly
don't think he was seeing her before that. I feel
that it.
Speaker 7: Was he needed to have a woman in his.
Speaker 6: Life or something, somebody to help take care of the
kids when was then a stay at home mom. She
did everything.
Speaker 2: And I'm glad you said that because I speculated that
that may have been something that was going on earlier.
But we're not close to the kids, So if you're
close with the family, I would tend to side with
you and say, Okay, that makes sense, especially Wheah when
you're describing his personality.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't feel that at all he had cheated
on her or anything like that. I don't feel that.
I think that he had met her through however, he
met her an app or dating site. I was just
shocked that he would involve the children so quickly. She
told me. Mariam told me that they had kissed, they
had come, he had brought her back to the house.
The children were like, they were dressed nicely, and the
house was saying it was like he was planning on
whomever he met, was bringing them back to the house
to have them there forever. And then they went to
wherever Mariam was staying with family or friends, and they
had dinner. I mean, and it was like, I don't understand.
I couldn't comprehend and how many days you knew this
woman and then you were marrying her. There was no courtship,
So in my eyes, it was I need a wife
and for her. My opinion was I need a green
guard or something to stay in this country. I don't
know what happened upon you know, her father passing, and
they went back to Kenya, and then when she was
coming back she got supported. I don't know any of
that story. I do know as of a month ago
when I inquired with she told me that Mariam wasn't back, okay,
so I'm assuming she's filling Kenya. I do know that
he is in gig Harbor. What he's doing I don't know.
But yeah, there are just stories upon stories and I
don't even know.
Speaker 3: Well are you sure?
Speaker 2: I'm not saying are you sure, like like questioning you.
But with they went back to Kenya because her father
did pass away, because that is information that we didn't
really have there, like, hey, was he going out of
country because that would be suspicious, but like she really
had her father pass away.
Speaker 6: So that is what he posted something on Facebook at
the time that his father law. He didn't have a
chance to meet him in person, but he had passed
away and they were going back to Kenya his parents.
The children went with the grandparents while they were going
back to Kenya for the funeral, and then Eric came
back and the next day the children flew back home
and Eric picked them up at the airport. It was
just bizarre. And that's when he started making all the
allegations about the USA and she was deported and why
I don't know. I just know that they were coming
back to the country and he was allowed in and
she was not. He had cut me out of their lives,
let's be probably artically June or July. He stopped communicating
with me. He cut me out of the you know,
their lives period. And the only way I knew anything
about them was through another party that was in touch
with them. And it was just very manipulative. And I
think part of it was he was nervous because anytime
any of them needed me, I dropped everything and I
drove the three hours up there to be there. And
he knew that I could do that, and I think
that that kind of maybe scared him that he was
they weren't alone. Now Gwen had found me. I was
close enough. I had the ability to just drop and go.
There was even a time that his new wife called
me and she said, Dora, I am. She said, can
you come up here? She said, Eric's in the hospital. Apparently.
I don't know what happened, but he had gotten really drunk.
He was on somebody's property. I don't know all the details.
Something with the property owner had told him to get off,
and he showed the property owner a gun, and I
believed that they reported it to the police and gave
him the license plate. By that time, Eric was back home.
The police came to the house to question him, and
the next thing I know, I guess he was so
drunk she could not wake him up. The police went
and physically got him and they took him to the hospital.
She called me at that point. She didn't want Eric
to know that I was up there because he would
be very, very mad. And the next day she Marriam
was able to talk Eric into letting the children go
and visit their family in Texas, and so I took
them to the airport the next warning, and the children
were at least able to get away for quite some time.
I think it was like a week maybe, And then
he demanded when he got out of the hospital like
three days later. You know, they send you to wherever
and you sober up and then you get to come
home and no repercussions of how many times do we
allow this to happen before it's an issue? So he
had no clue I was up there at that time,
at least to my knowledge, Nobody told him, and yeah, don't.
I don't even know. There's just so so many things
that occurred, and it's kind of scattered and.
Speaker 2: To your point before too, you also have your own life,
your own children, and you're trying to juggle this, which
is more than anybody normally should be ever able to handle.
So I can imagine, like what a whirlwind it was.
Speaker 6: You know. That's why I felt that it was necessary
for all the documentation. When after I'd spoke to don
She's like, Door, you need to contact somebody. Something's not right.
It's not right, And I did. I called Washington State
and they're like, you need to speak to Trooper Knock.
He was the one that was originally on the scene,
and I did talk to him, and at the end
of our conversation he said, you need to contact the detective.
I'm like, detective I'm like, what, And then he gave
me the information and I did that. We played email
or phone tag for a day or two, and then
the detective and I talked and I told him my
story and he said, you know, Door, at the end
of everything we've talked about, you never said if you
felt he did it? And I said, you know, you're right,
But why would I fit across from the table to
day everything from my daughter and ask her do you
think did it? If I didn't feel that way?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that the TECTI Chrisian asked you that after
all of your conversations.
Speaker 6: Yes, well, our very initial conversation we had. That was
his question for me. Okay, and yeah, and I said,
well why would I ask, you know, ask my daughter
do you think he did it? Now? Just keep in mind,
my daughter's working on her masters and mental health, so
god forbid, she's gonna really you saw her mother?
Speaker 3: Yeah, but.
Speaker 6: There are just so many instants. I was able to
take one time for a weekend. I went up and
got her and then brought her back, and then I
was able to keep her one time for a week
Now would never come. He always wanted to be.
Speaker 7: Home, close to home, and I.
Speaker 6: Think he was the secret keeper and they looked after Dad,
and so I think that he was probably just afraid
he lost to mom. And he knows Dad's an alcoholic,
and he knows Dad's been drinking. But they never told me. Yeah,
I only knew all of this because of other people
telling me. And when I brought me home one time,
we came back from the store and we were sitting
in the car and I was talking to her and
she just kind of like, I, you know, I don't know,
you know, I don't know what happened. And she's like,
and my dog, She's like my noodle dog. I loved
him so much. And I said, well, what happened to Noodle?
And she said, I don't know. Dad took him for
a walk and Dad said that he just dropped over.
There's been many stories with the dog. The dog had COVID.
The dog just had a heart attack, and this was
like just days after when had passed. And in fact,
he you know, you don't they never walked to the dog.
The dog they let out the back patio, he had
the yard to run in and he would come back.
So for him to take the dog on a walk
was suspicious. To begin with, because they never walked to
the dog.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you touched on a key point that
was a big red flag for us when we initially
looked into the case. And I haven't even talked to
anybody yet, but it seemed as though almost every story,
even the small stories that were you think would be innocuous,
just seemed to never be consistent. Like you said, like,
g't sure, Like at first it was he had COVID,
and then Gwen had COVID, then the dog had COVID,
so that's why he had to get rid of the dog.
And when we talked to Don, she was speculating just
because you know, they had other pets. But she she
kind of put together that he seemed to have been
cleansing anything that was tied to Gwen because that was
Gwen's dog.
Speaker 6: In fact, Gwen was going to write a blog. She
was a vegetarian, and she was going to write a
blog what my dog ate today? Because if Gwen was
cutting sweet potatoes, the dog came and got sweet potato.
Gwen would text me that she was at the bus
stop with the children and the dog was with the dogs.
It was her dogs, and you know they I don't
think that the children were supposed to say anything to me.
But the kids were like, we had a bonfire, and
I'm like, you did. I'm like that must have been fun,
you know, just always trying to make it positive. And
they were like, yeah, we burned mom's clothes so they
could go up to heaven with her. And I'm like,
what on earth, Gwen? Knowing Gwen, she would have wanted
them donated to somebody's youth. She would not want her
things burned. She would want somebody else to have them,
to utilize them.
Speaker 8: And so it just it seems like a traumatic thing
to do in front of children. Just lost them too well,
stuff like don said, they're he was burning, like journals
and things too, like other ideas.
Speaker 6: Yeah, she kept she kept journals upon journals of things
that they did or whatever. And I don't know if
it was done through her therapy. I know that her
and the children, she did take the children with her
to therapy to where they went, you know, that was
never talked about. She just said they did go to therapy.
When I mentioned to Eric about him and the children
going to therapy to help through this traumatic situation, No,
we don't need therapy. We we know. No. He was
very banned against it, to the point that when I
mentioned to the children, I'm like, hey, do you guys
want to talk to anybody? And they're like, no, we
don't need any help. We're fine. Everything was fine all
the time. We're fine, We're fine. It was just you know,
and one thing I had forgot to mention as well.
I had told my daughter the day that everything happened.
You know, something's wrong. She said, something's wrong. Mama would
never throw herself off a bridge. She loved K and
I too much, and yeah, I just you know, my
daughter was like, Mom, I just I wish I had
more time. But you know, when it got quiet, and
the house was not that large and it was on
one floor, she said, when it got quiet, I didn't
want anything to be overheard of what she was sharing
with me. And we you know, it was always like
on eggshells all the time. And in fact, the whole
time that I had the one weekend were called, she
never checked on her. I would tell her, you, you know,
you better call your dad, and you know, just I mean,
being a parent, I my child better call me check in.
But it was like nothing, no big deal.
Speaker 2: Was your daughter going through her masters at the time
or going into the mental health type work.
Speaker 6: So she she is in her masters currently, Okay, she's
in the middle of it. She was in that field,
so all the skills she probably knows now she didn't
have then, although she's very smart, and I mean, in fact,
when she was younger, the children would say she would
come home mom. The kids on the playground told me
that I'm like doctor phil and Oprah, And I mean
she was like nine, you know, eight nine years old
that so she was destined to do this, but she
needed to figure it out on her own.
Speaker 2: Sure, well, I I asked her, because it sounds like
she was intuitive to that. And if she's going into
that field, she knows a bit about it, and if
she's with you also sensing it. I look at that
as you have a gut feeling she's working to be
a professional at this and also senses something is different,
like she feels like she can't even discuss openly with
the kids because it could potentially be a hazardous environment
to do that in.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and at that time, her job, she worked for
a nonprofit that with children that she would assist to
their therapist and it would be more in the field
where the therapist was more in office, so she had
a well rounded sense of everything that was going on.
But I think it, you know, she doesn't really talk
about it, and she's like, Mom, he's crazy, he's doing nothing,
but you know, stress to you. Just cut it up,
go on your day. And I said, but I'm still attached,
I said. She didn't know when but for those short times.
And they started a texting rapport like let's ask each
other questions and like what's your favorite color or what
did you do? And so they were catching up of
twenty some years of time together and the last one
had seen my daughter. She was like eighteen twenty months
and here she was a grown adult. Yeah, but you know,
so they started that connection and to the point she
can't even listen to the podcast. I told her about it.
I was like, hey, this is It was maybe a
month later she said, when read it, I made a
comment and so I went back and I googled it
and read it and I was just like heartbroken that
she didn't need she couldn't even bring herself to listen
to that, and that she remembered that that phone call
and because at that point, she was still at home
and you know, she's like, Mom, what happened? What happened.
I'm coming with you. I'm calling off the work, and
so you know, it was, yeah, it's now.
Speaker 3: That is tough. That is tough.
Speaker 2: And I wanted to get your reaction because we went
past the whole actual when you were notified that they
thought that she had jumped off the bridge and committed suicide.
What was your initial thoughts when you heard that story.
Speaker 6: So Eric's the one that said that they were looking
for her in the Tacoma narrow and through. You know
when I called him when he told me not to
come up there, and we have to drive over that
bridge to get to their house, and the whole time,
my daughter was driving and I'm looking and looking and
I'm just like, I don't see helicopters. Where are they now? Again,
it is the Northwest and there are plenty of kuality
days that you know, seven thirty eight four in the morning,
and I'm just like, well, I don't understand. I couldn't
process it. And then I at that point it was
nobody said she physically jumped off a bridge. It was
when I talked to Trooper Knox that he told me
the situation that was in the police report, that there
was the van that was wrecked. And I'm sorry, I'm
just so like my mind is going a thousand different places.
And he had told me when I talked to Supernox,
he had said that was a weird night. And I said,
you don't have to tell me that. I understand it
was a weird night. Well you know what happened. And
he told me that he had arrived on the scene
there was the van that was wrecked. He said it
was very odd. It wasn't didn't seem to consistent within
there's guardrail on that bridge. I believe if you watch
the video footage I had taken from the from their
house to that bridge, he said, it wasn't consistent with
like an accident on the guard rail. He said there
were wood pieces stuck in the side of the car.
And he said there was a man that had his
own mental challenges that said he had seen Gwen, he
had talked to her, and he looked back and there
was a shadow going over the bridge. It was just
like what I just don't understand that. But this guy
said that there was somebody in the van and Okay,
I know he may may have been maybe he was homeless,
maybe he does have his own mental issues, maybe he
was drinking. But when he the consistent thing, he says
that somebody was in the vehicle. Aren't you going to
look at that Eric was a marathon runner. I mean,
the detective even asked me how fast can Eric run?
And I said, you don't know. I don't know, but
he did tell my daughter, And the detective never called
my daughter, and I said, she was there the day
with me. She would remember more, she was entuned, more,
she spoke to the children. I'm only hearing this through her.
Of the things that you know that had told her,
they weren't said to me. I would think that he
would want to call her. She's an adult at that point.
She's over twenty, you know, eighteen twenty one, she's over
at that age. And it was just weird that he
never called and spoke with her. And so anyway, it
just was like why the detective asked how fast he
could run? And it was bizarre after that, After that
conversation I had with the detective, the next day, Eric
posted something on Facebook, a picture of him running the
marathon over that bridge, with the time that he ran
that day, and I sent that. I did send that
to the detective, that picture and that post of that time,
and so I figured if it was like twelve they
hadn't mapped the detective mapped it out, as I think
it was like twelve point whatever miles to the house
to the bridge, and his time would have allotted that
to be able to run back to the house after
that time. Yeah.
Speaker 2: One of the things that always irked me too is
in the report the detective said when they had called
him to inform them that they had found the van,
so they didn't know where Gwen was at the time.
Sponsor the phone call was that the van was parked
at home and everybody was at home. But at that
point he would have also known that that wasn't the case.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And their house had an alarm like if you
open the front door, it's like the the front door open,
garage door open, and I've heard that, and then the
back door. I don't know that the back door had
that feature on it, but I do know the garage
door and the front door did. And if she had
when she was leaving that house, you didn't hear that,
You didn't hear that.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, we know she went out the front door,
because we have the video of.
Speaker 6: That, and it is very dark and that's the only
place that had lights that the house was at that
front door. The so in their driveway. Why did why
did they end the video there? Why couldn't we see
her trying to walk down the steps? Why was that
video ended there? The detective or the police see any
further video? And I mean we only seen that because
he posted that on social media.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and from the report it sounds like that's the
same That's the only video the detective had was that
same social media post, which was then subsequently deleted. But
we did get I forget who sent it to us, Mike,
somebody sent us the actual.
Speaker 6: Video, Okay, yeah, always yeah, yeah, yeah, I sent because
that's all that I had. And now he deleted his Facebook,
so it kind of deleted that video. But through some
digging through another person, I was able to get that video.
It just there were so many unanswered questions, and look,
I know it was at the beginning of COVID and
a lot of things were going on. I immediately threw
myself into speaking a counselor, and she a week before
actually all this happened. And when I called, she said, door,
you do know you're going into a home that maybe
there's COVID, And I said, I don't care. I am healthy.
I don't care. You're telling me that my sister's missing,
and I don't care. COVID, no COVID, it doesn't matter.
So anyway, I don't even know if COVID happened or not.
I you know, I can't say. I just don't know.
Speaker 3: For their test results and stuff like that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I, according to Eric, I would ask him, you know,
a weeks fafter did you get did you get the results?
Did you get the results? He would tell me no,
I'm sure the detective was able to get the results.
But again that was never shared with me personally, so
I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was one of our speculations, also because this
was early COVID, because I remembered specifically because March nineteenth
was my birthday, and that's right when it was kind
of like we're starting to lock down. People are scared,
people don't know what's going on. So we I try
and look at more of the silver lining aspect. We
looked at the lack of the in depth investigation is
more of this COVID thing is happening and people don't
know what's going on, Like did the things get overlooked
because you know, there might be people that think this
might be the end, this might be the plague. So no,
we're not going to focus our energy on this type
of thing. But I also found it odd that they
were reporting all the COVID positives that were coming out
because Washington State was one of the first states that
had early positive cases and there was no mention in
the news at this Now that doesn't mean it didn't happen,
but I just remember at that point every day getting
an update of one by one the people who got
COVID and where they were, and all of a sudden,
we're seeing in social media, I've got COVID, she's got COVID,
the dog's got COVID. And when you look at the
news reports, there was like, I don't know, if you remember, Mike,
like a sixty year old man and two other people
were reported as actually having it there and you know,
if you know, he's saying, well, she was hospitalized, but
they're gonna send her home COVID positive, and I'm like,
I don't know, if they were doing that, they were
like locking people down at that point so it wouldn't spread,
and so the stories didn't match up. Ever, and then
your daughter might actually be a good reference for this.
But the other thing that rubbed us the wrong way
was when someone commits suicide. And again I am not
an expert, but I have family that are therapists and
I've talked about this with them, and the actions that
someone who's actually going to commit that, unless it's like
the heat of the moment, are typically to disconnect, you know,
give away personal belongings, things like that, And it sounded
like things were starting to really go good with her.
She reconnected with you. When we talked to Dawn, don
was saying she felt like she was doing really good.
She was in a good spot. And then the thing
that always always got to me was the children and
how she would never do anything that would put the
children at harm. And what Donn had mentioned was with
the domestic abuse type things, or there was one incident
where Eric was out in front with a gun waving
it around, saying he was going to kill himself, and
she had to call Gwen had to call the police,
and the children are there watching it, and I think
it might correct me if I'm wrong, because we just
did this the other day. But Don said something like
she would not leave those children in that home by themselves.
Speaker 6: She called her friend in gig Harbor and said, can
you come get the kids? And according to the friend
that I spoke to, and I don't know if you
guys reached out to her or not, so I don't
want to throw her under a bus or anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I say, if you want to message us after
this and tell us her name, just don't stay on
the air now in case they don't want.
Speaker 3: To be identified exactly.
Speaker 6: She told me Gwen had got a hold of her
and said, can you come and get the children and
keep them as long as you need to? And I
believe she did did this was shortly after I believe
they moved into the house. But this friend also her
and her husband helped Gwen a lot when Eric did
stupid thing of like with his drinking and traveling and whatnot.
So yes, I definitely will get you her contact information. Now.
When I had met Gwen initially, I had purchased this
necklace for her and it had a little It was
in a shape of a tear heart and at the
bottom of the heart or not a heart, it was
like a tear drop, and at the bottom of it
it had a diamond. And I said, these are for
all the tears that we cried in the past, and
now we can let it go and let's build a future.
We were talking about girls weekend and our family's taken
a vacation to the coast together, and we had made
like a lot of plans. We found out we had
a lot of similar things now adults in common and
what we were going to do, and now we had
some things we probably would have disagreed upon. She's an
anti gun and I'm like, hey, I have my license
to care. Even though I don't, I do have. And
you know, we we disagree to we agree to disagree.
But yeah, we still had a lot of things in
common that we like to do, especially in the Pacific Northwest,
and so we were making those plans. And that's why
when they said it was suicide, I I'm just like,
I don't understand. I don't understand that we had planned.
I'm not finished yet. She wasn't finished yet. She had
things she wanted to do. She talked about the blog
she wanted to write, and how involved she was with
the children, with you know, with ballet and with piano,
and she would send me videos of playing the piane.
He was really good, and I I just don't understand.
She was not done living her life. She was not done.
I do not believe it was suicide. Some may differ
with me, but that is my opinion from my reconnection
with her, and I am definitely one. As I'm looking
through these emails, I must have jotted down notes at
some point in time, but I definitely want to get
them to you because a lot of them will give
you a lot more feedback of the time when they happened,
because it would happen and that night I would email,
and that's kind of like I guess my journal to
the detective, you know, but you know, there were many
bizarre things that had taken place that I would email
again he cut me off at that point in time.
And so that's like where I say there are three
key people into knowing that before would be Dawn, her
being such a good friend and trying to help out
and knew of so many things. People to fill in
like the friend, I'll send you the number. There was
a friend in Ohio that she's not too talkative. Once
in a while I'll message her or she'll message me,
and it's very sporadic and out of the blue. And
then the sister in law in Texas.
Speaker 2: I have yet to come across one of them that
doesn't share your sentiment, Dawn sentiment. I mean even people
that should theoretically be on Eric's side. I won't say
who they are because I don't know if they want
to share, but people who when they reached out would like, Okay,
we're going to get the other side, and they say, hey,
I was friends with him, I am in this very
close relationship with him. I kind of agree with what
you guys have come to the conclusion Sote.
Speaker 3: Like I said, it's people that are supposed.
Speaker 2: To be ones that would be defending him are also
wondering if that's he possibly caused these problems. And one
of the things that still sticks with me in my
hopes that all all of this raising this awareness will
help reopen the case was a detective Christian's last comment
on his last report that we have and it's a quote.
Though unusual, these documented circumstances do not readily identify any
over malicious intent behind Gwen's passing. However, they do present
cause for consideration those with opinions about the welfare the
welfare of Gwen's surviving children, or encourage to report their
concerns a local CPS. So to me, that read in
that maybe at a legal level he might not have
had what he needed at the time to bring charges
or hold him. But I don't think he believes this
was a suicide fully either. I'm putting words in his mouth.
This is my speculation about his comments. So this is me,
this is not his words. But we've been trying to
get a hold of him to say, hey, come on
here and say what you're allowed to say. I don't
know what they can say or what they can't say
in a case that's been closed or if it's still
open or whatever. But I know between you others people
that want to remain anonymous, we have more information that
was not anywhere in any of the reports that I
think would be viable information to potentially reopen the case.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's why I was digging for his last email
communication because he's the speed down Amy and I in it,
and none of us can find it. And I just
find that bizarre that out of three people, we cannot
find this email. And basically it had said after his conclusion,
he did close the case and there was no concrete evidence.
Was I believe the terminology he used and that was
the reasoning for closing the case. But yeah, I don't
want to quote it without it being accurate. And for
the life of me, not one of the three of
us that it's just like it disappeared down there and
don't I don't know what happened. Did we deleted in
the heat of you know, we're mad. I went back
through my deleted messages and I just can't find it.
I wish I could. There. You know, there was a
time when I did call Child Protective Services. Don't get
me wrong, I've probably I've called them, maybe on I
called the police, maybe on three or I don't remember
how many times I called them on several different occasions,
and I you know, they went out there one time
and well it was the night that he had spent
nigh and at this point I don't think I were
even talking to each other. Text messages and I think
I did post them up on that page regarding how
he had a gun and he held it in his
mouth and whatnot, and I was texting him, look, you
have these children to take care of. I even asked him,
do you have what would happen to the children, And
then all of this stuff, and at the same time,
unbeknownst to me, he was texting and doing the same stuff.
And then when we compared notes were like, well, he
probably was drown and he did have a lot of guns.
So the next morning, when he wasn't answering my phone
calls and he wasn't answering I did, I called and
for a well check. And then he got mad because
I called for a well check and I was like,
whoa wait a minute, go back and read your text messages.
That's what I called. You didn't answer the phone. He's like, well,
we were making breakfast and getting ready for school homeschool,
And I like, it doesn't matter. You didn't answer your
phone after those text messages. What am I to think?
I just lost my sister. I don't want to have
to go through this again. And so he got mad
at me for that, and I called another time, and
I don't know whatever came of that. And then the
one time I called and the police officer whom I
don't remember his name, said to me, why do you
want me to go out there? I need calls and
I told him my reasons why. He said, look, I
have personally been out to that property between I don't
remember if it was six or eight times, and every
time I go out there, everything is fine. And I said,
of course they're fine. Of course they're fine. They're not
going to tell you anything different. And he said, you know,
the last time I went out there him they were
going out for a run and he would not go
out there. And the next time I got a phone
call from some somehow I would have to go back
and revisit. But the grandparents. I've gotten in touch with
the grandparents over the grandkids, and I said, look, anything
you need you need me to get there, I can
be there. You just need to let me know. So
they called me and they said, look, we had an
instance with Eric yesterday, and if we need you to
go to the feat with the grandchildren, can we can
you go absolutely in a harpy. I need three hours
notice and I can be there. And they said, okay,
we have some cousin of the grandparents that lives in
Seattle and she you know, she's retired, and she said,
you know, she if she needed to, she could get
the kids. But if she couldn't get there, could you
in a harpy. So the next morning comes and I'm
on my way to work and the grandparents called me
and she said, we can't get a hold of the
relative in Seattle. Could you please go the the police department.
They have the children, and I guess Eric was going
to kill himself. And the little boy called the grandparents
and said, Dad's really sick. He's growing up. He won't
go to the hospital and the grandmother. They called the
grandparents and the grandmother told, you know, I think it's
time that you need to call nine one one. Eric
overheard that and he said, you're not calling nine one one.
He put himself in the bedroom. He locked to the
door and was outside just saying, Dad, we love you,
don't do this, We need you, and you know, the
grandmother stayed on the phone, with which the grandfather called
the police from wesconfin. He's calling the police, and they came.
Apparently Eric had passed out, and they told the children
to run, you know, run to the top of the
hill that they're there, and the children did that, and
they took them to the police station. So in the meantime,
now I don't I don't even believe they went into
the house. I you know, I don't believe that they did.
They took the children, went back to the police station.
I'm on now. The grandmother called me. I now flipped
the U turn and headed to Seattle. Called my husband
to let him know. Then the Social Service called me
and said, in order for you to take the children,
we need you and your husband's license. We need some
information and we need to have somebody come and inspect
your home. I said, whatever you need. My husband sent,
you know, he sent everything they needed. He said, hey,
look let's let me know. I'll leave warp so they
can inspect. We have two empty bedrooms with beds and whatnot.
We have room for the kids. You know, whatever you need,
he said, I will be there. You go and take
care of the children. I arrived at gig Harbor at
the police station, and the police are like, didn't anybody
call you? And I said no, And he said, CPS
took the children. They're now in Tacoma. I said, you
are kidding me. That's another forty five minutes back in
my direction that I could have already been there, and
I was furious, and they were very kind, but I
let them know that the last time I did a
well check, this is why I did a well check,
and one of you told me you were not going,
and this is why we're here today. And they gave
me the address of the children's services. I drove back there,
and then I was informed that I could not take
the children. They were going to Seattle and they needed
to leave. And I said, why can't I take the children?
And they said, well, you live in Oregon and not
in Washington. And I said, you couldn't have told me
this all my way here. You wanted all of mine
and my husband's information. You wanted to do a background
check and go to my home. You knew we lived
in Oregon. You had our driver of life. And they said,
I'm sorry. The relative, the distant cousins and the children
met this cousin one time a few years ago for
Thanksgiving and that was it. They knew no other connection
to this person. And I was livid. I said, you
have to at least let me see the children. They
did let me see the children. I called the grandmother
in Wisconsin and I'm like, what is going on? Why
won't they let me take the kids? I was livid
at this whole situation could have been solved, and they
would not let me take them because I lived across,
you know, out of state lines, and so I was like, okay, fine,
I said, I'll get a hotel and I'll stay here.
They said how long are you willing to stay? And
I said how long do I need to stay? And
they said, well, probably like a week. Okay, fine, I'll
stay a week. And I even offered them. I said,
you pick the hotel, you can have my car keys,
just let me keep the kids with me, and they
said no, no, the other lady had already been approved.
We're taking them to the cousin's house. And that's that.
And the you know, the little boy was just hugging me,
and the social worker said, come on, we need to go.
We need to go. It's gonna take us like an
hour to get there. We need to go, and she
ripped him out of my arm, took them in a car,
and I just I can't even explain how I felt.
I just broke down and sat in their chair, probably
cried for two minutes. And I got up, I called
the grand and no, in fact, the grandparent was still
on the phone. I never hung up on her. And
I was on my way to my car, and I said,
you have no idea, no idea what your son has done.
You have no idea what he is doing, none whatsoever.
And she said, look, I'm going to talk to the
relative and see if she'll let you go up and
see the kids and whatnot. That did occur. So I
drove to this family member's home and the children were
there and they said, door, we didn't think you would
come so quickly, and well they've probably I will probably
was like thirty minutes behind them at this point. And
so she did let me spend a little time with
them there, and I took pictures with the kids and
we were able to talk and play a game or whatever.
And then the lady, well, we have to go to
the store and we have to get them some clothes
and some food. And I said, well, I can go
and get that, and she was like, well, no, we
can go and get it. In other words, like your
visits over is what I felt like. And maybe I
did overstay my welcome, but it was just a long day, yeah.
Speaker 2: And I feel like you were probably the only person
that had real genuine concern for the hits, which is
it's infuriating for me sitting here hearing it. Like I said,
me and Mike have kids, and I can't imagine what's
going through their heads.
Speaker 3: You know what, are they twelve and eight or nine?
Speaker 6: Yeah? There, you know what. It's the time it happened.
I think it was like aen eleven. You know, don't
quote me on that, but it was. You know, I
was the only person that physically was in their life
that they were familiar with at that time.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Had they called Gwen's friend that lived nearby, she would
have been there and got the children. But the grandparents,
they don't. You know, we never mentioned to them that
obviously we suspect that your son did something, or you know,
we need to keep this good for the children.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it was.
Speaker 6: You know, I called the family in Texas the whole time,
and they're like, keep me posted, keep me posting.
Speaker 7: It would and you know, again they.
Speaker 6: Were livid as well. Here I am there, the children
are familiar with me. I'm willing to drop everything, stay
in a hotel with these children until their grandparents came.
I was willing to do anything, and so we're the
family in Texas, they also were willing to do anything
to help these children. But I get they have a job,
and I get the system is broken, and it truly
is broken, because if that was the case, they would
have let me stay there with the children. If not,
get in touch with Oregon. I live right across the border.
What do you need. I could have stayed wherever you
wanted me to.
Speaker 2: I feel like they could have solved that. Of all
the competent choices, they picked the least.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I'm not saying the lady wasn't nice, but
her home was not a place for kids. You know,
she is an older, reach tired lady. I mean, very
well with it, and she was kind. But her home
was definitely clean and everything had a place, and you know,
it's not a place that I would have wanted children
to be bouncing off the walls and playing.
Speaker 2: And sure like not that it wasn't safe, but like,
she didn't have kids, She wasn't prepared for kids, She
wasn't expecting kids. The kids didn't even know her that well. Meanwhile, yeah,
you have room for them, you have children, you've been
with them, through this entire ordeal. So you can relate
to them, you can. They're familiar with you, and they
picked the ladder of are the former.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it was like I was dismissed. You're done,
I felt, And this is how I feel with Eric
and more so his family. We have this chess game,
and you're the little pond. When we need you, will
use you.
Speaker 7: You home.
Speaker 6: When we don't need you, you're out. They in fact,
when they had custody of the children that time was
the first time they took them back to Wisconsince. They
let me have a rapport with the kids. I would
make some cookies and I would ship that to them
and I we would text, and we would FaceTime and
always monitored. Of course, the grandparents were always in the
background somewhere, and we had a good report. The grandparents
invited my husband and I to come out there to
visit the children. We booked I immediately got off the phone.
We booked tickets hotel. We made sure it had a
pool that the kids could swim in, because we were
told that children could stay the night with us at
the hotel. And they just asked that they you know,
they could call the children I'm like, absolutely, you can
call them every day, you can FaceTime whatever. And we
had the car rental, we had planned, we were going
to arrive a couple of days early. We had things
we were going to do that were adult related, and
then we were going to pick the children up. And
we had made a whole week for the plans. It
was like and I'm a planner, So everything was lined out.
And then about three weeks before that, the grandmother told
me that they told Eric that we were coming, and
he was livid and he did not want us to come.
The children now were not allowed to stay the night
with us, and we were only allowed to have them
between a certain time, and they go to church on Sundays,
and now this and that, and so the whole game
plan changed, and I was furious. I agreed. I made
my efforts. The kids knew I was coming, I had that,
I had my tickets and everything, and then I was
I told them. I told the grandmother, well, it's probably
since we can't see the children very much and do
all the things we wanted to do with them, we
are going to cancel our plans.
Speaker 7: And so.
Speaker 6: Unfortunately I had to tell the children that we were
now not coming, And I told them, you know that
kind of I told them the truth that Dad was
up bet that we didn't you know that we were coming,
and he didn't want that. And I don't want there
to be issues with dad, the grandparents and the children,
and but know that we were coming. Know we love you.
We will do whatever we need to do. You know,
every time you needed me, I came when you lived
in Washington. If you need me, I will come when
you're in Wisconsin. You need to let me know. But
I at this point, I don't want there to be problems,
and so here I had to let things. Children down,
like they didn't have enough disappointment in their life for
the last year. You just now created more. You know,
we did not go that. That was the first time
they were taken away, and then this second time, I
didn't know that they were my dog. I didn't know
that we you know that they were even anything had happened.
There was like a snapchat of like a chair, and
then the next thing I know, there's a picture of
a fireplace, which I knew that was at a cousin's house.
I knew that that fireplace, and I was like, something's wrong.
You know, something is definitely wrong that they're not at home.
And then finally, I think the grandmother told me that
the kids were you know or no, not the kids.
They were flying to Washington, that they were going to
get custody at the children, and I guess for legalities
and until everything went through the court, they had to stay.
So they rented an airbnb and stayed with the children
at the airbnb, and then Eric went back to Kenya again.
I think that was the last time he was in Kenya,
and he stayed for quite some time. And I don't know,
I'm like, how are you affording this? How are you
affording a mortgage car? I mean, I don't know how
you're affording this, but unless your parents are helping you,
because they do have the means to do that. And
so then the other thing is Eric said to me
one time, he was like, oh, I'm like, what did
you do today? And I know I'm going back and
forth a lot, but these things are like triggering in
my mind. That's perfect, you know, I said, what do
you do today? He said, Oh, He's like, I've been
going to the bank. He's like this girl she had,
you know, I had to go to multiple banks. And
I'm like, did you have to go take the death
certificate to multiple banks because of multiple accounts or multiple
accounts at multiple banks? And he said, there are multiple
accounts at multiple banks. So I think that Gwen may
have been putting money away somewhere that he didn't know about.
I'm guessing maybe I'm assuming I don't know that. But
all of a sudden, he gets the new Mercedes for
the new wife. And why did he let my sister
drive a crappy van that was on the verge of
breaking down at any moment, But yet you now have
the money for a Mercedes and he got a Mini
Cooper And I'm like they may not have been new,
but still those things cost money on top of mortgage.
And I was like, are you you know after Gwen
had passed and the cemetery they had her body, He's like, oh,
you can't go. They're not allowing anybody to go when
she's buried.
Speaker 7: And I'm like, okay.
Speaker 6: And I called the funeral home myself and they said, well,
because of COVID, you can't come. I said, what if
I just stood in my car? I don't even get out,
I just sit in my car so that she's not alone.
And they said, no, they will bury her and then
they will call you. And I mean, I tried really
hard to fight for allowing them for me to come
to the cemetery bright and early in the morning and
just to stay in my car, but they wouldn't allow that,
and then she's buried. And I asked, Garen, were you
getting a tombstone or you and you need help? Will
help you pay for it. We'll you know, we'll buy
it whatever you need. Well, I guess he got one,
but it didn't meet the requirement. So somehow he eventually
got another one that did meet the requirements. But even
the day it was near Easter time and I made
the kids an Easter basket and my husband and I
were going up there to take it, and we were
planning on stopping at the cemetery first, and he told
me don't get there before me. He said that the
kids and I need to be at the cemetery before anybody.
And I said, no, that's fine. I said, let me
know when you're done and then we will go and
we'll come to your house after. And then he texts
me He's like, well, you can go to the cemetery.
I don't feel like I'm up to going. I'm a
mess today. So then we did go and he said,
I said, okay, we're you know, we're leaving the cemetery.
We're on our way to house. And he said, no,
I don't think it's a good idea you come today,
some mind, just not a short drive. And I said,
do you mind if we at least drop the easter
baskets off at the front porch for the kids to
have them. And then he's like, oh, he's like, you
can come. He's like, I thought about it. It probably
was a bad idea to tell you no, not to come.
That's great, And so we did. Yeah, we did get there.
He had a suit on, sunglasses and he was sitting
on the couch and I went and, you know, with
the kids, and we were in their rooms playing and
my husband was talking to him, and the whole time
he wore a sunglass. This is obviously he was drunk.
And he had a beer in his hand and he
was like, asked my husband, do you want a beer?
And my husband's like, no, man, I don't drink and drive.
And he was like, okay, he's talking about youthless stuff,
and you know, my husband's like, you know, unreal, is
he's unreal? There were beer cams lined up in their
back property, like he had taken the gun out because
he had an obsession with them. He'd taken the gun
out and was shooting them and he had numerous weapons.
Oh my gosh, it's when his parents the first time
they were taken again, I'm backtracking. Oh, the first time
that they were taken away, and the grandfather flew in
to the relative's house and stayed with them. We had
met him up in Washington and got to say goodbye
to the kids before they were going to Wisconsin. And
at that point, Eric was like, maybe I'm going to
stay in Kenya, maybe this, maybe that, Maybe I'm going
to run out the house. And I'm like, he's going
to run out the house. I said, he has all
the children's pictures, the children sing. He's like, yeah, we're
going to They're going to put them in a shed.
And I'm like, the shut out back of the metal.
We live in the Northwest where everything is going to
be ruined. So the grandfather let us take like all
the pictures of the children off the wall. He gave
us some sentimental family things that were there that you know.
I said, hey, look we'll keep them. We have the room,
we can just store them. And he gave me. The
only thing that I know that he kept as Gwen
was her wedding dress. And I don't know if it
was in a closet, and I don't know if he
intentionally forgot to burn it or not. But the grandfather,
he's like, oh, and here are these. You know, he
had the New Life wedding dress and then Gwen and
they was like, oh this point, the children are calling
their mother by the first name. She's like, that was
that was Gwen's wedding dress. And I'm like, that was
your mom, and so I took it. I mean, to
this day, I still have it in the closet. I
don't know if anybody knows that it's missing or not,
but I haven't. But you know, the behavior of the
children calling the new mom right away mom, and you've
seen in the wedding video where she like dropped to
the floor when called her mom, and it's like that
was very dramatic to me. And then now they're calling
their mom Gwen, and anytime they would refer to that,
I'm like, even though your mom's not here, she's still
your mom, so I will refer to her as your mom. Yeah,
and it's just as rar, I don't. I mean, in
a matter of a week, you're now calling your mom Gwen,
and then you're calling this lady you don't even know mom.
You don't think that was forced upon somewhere along the line.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I have a son and a daughter that
are those ages right now, and they don't think that
in depth about things. That's something that's being put into
their head.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I know that. Yeah, they're so you know, like
I said, there are so many instance that I definitely
need to get your like some of this paperwork because
I am way out of chronological order.
Speaker 2: And no, that is fine, that's I'm glad that you're
able to get the stuff out. It doesn't have to
be in perfect order because it is you're going off
of memory. But we definitely would love to see the
emails and stuff. And just like with any of our conversations,
if there's things you don't want to have publicly included,
you can just let us know. I do have one question.
We've been going for a while, so I don't want
to keep you all day in all of your interactions
with Eric's family and Eric's out of the family, do
they have any suspicion of you know, that their son
or their brother anything is involved in this somehow? Are
they just kind of disassociating from that potential.
Speaker 6: I don't think that they know. Then again, this is
a family of they raised him, so they're very short
and brief, and I honestly, after the second time the
children were taken away, I've stepped back from them. She
did say, well, you could always go to Wisconsin on vacation,
and I said, no, we tried that once before that
didn't work out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds very similar to stuff that Eric was doing, like, Okay,
we're into this and then last minute get very controlling
and consolidating power over them almost And.
Speaker 6: That's exactly how I feel that they are there. I
feel that they like to control this situation. They only
let you know what they want you to know. It's
very so I've stepped away from my own mental health,
I've stepped away from being in touch with them. I
don't I don't know what they feel, what they think,
other than the dad firsthand got to see. He told
us he was pulling alcohol bottles out of the wheelwheel
of a car that they were in the bushes. He's like,
we have I have this bottle of wine. If you
guys want it, We're like, no, thanks. And I mean
he went through the house while he was staying there
with the kids when Eric was in Kenya and cleaned
out the house of everything. But we all know, and
I've told this to the grandparents. Eric needs professional help.
Not a week in the hospital, not a day treatment.
He needs to physically go for months to rehab and
get help. He's not going to any other way. He's
not going to sober up. He's a good actor. No, no,
I quit drinking. Nope, nope. And the next thing we're
in this rent, wash and repeat cycle. And he's just
an actor. And I think that he tells the parents
whatever they want to hear. And the parents are a
little nice even that aspect and believe him. But again
they are controlling. They have been nice to me, so
I'll keep it at that for them, for these children.
But they raised him, and if they raised him and
he acts like this, what are they like?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I will say.
Speaker 2: When we first heard about this case from an acquaintance,
I have that's connected to somebody who's close to Gwen.
I didn't expect to get as emotionally invested in it
as I have. And what I can say i'd say
on behalf of Mike and I is I'm very grateful
that you were there for those children. I would say,
from what it sounds like, you showed them genuine concern
and love. And if there's any silver lining to that,
they still do have somebody that has their well being
as at the forefront, and that's you and Don and
the people who are close to Gwen that truly do care,
and I would say are the most normal thing that
they have going in their life right now.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, I will say that these felt first
of I I kind of when the podcast first was
made known to me, I was like, what, you know,
what's going on? Who else knows about this? And then
I listened to and I'm like, WHOA, there's a lot
of gaps in here that have happened and they don't
know about, and a lot of people that have partaken
in this and they don't know about. So I found
it kind of interesting that there are only bits and
pieces the gist of things. But then Gwen didn't have
contact with any family for like two years before she
contacted me. And after that point and after she passed,
her family in Texas were like they were all invested,
and I was invested, and you know, it's just none
of that matters. They just cut everybody out. Everybody out.
Like I said, I'm the only one. And I don't understand.
None of us understand why Eric said not for them
to have contact with the family in Texas, because the
the day before, they're like, I love you, everything was good,
everything was great, and then it's like the next day
cuts them off. It's just so bizarre. And I think
it's because he knows that at any moment, Gwen's family
will be there, and I think that kind of scares him.
Speaker 2: I would agree that's again, this is this is speculation,
but I feel like there's there's even for someone who
may be a sociopath.
Speaker 3: Like I said, I'm not a I'm not a clinician.
Speaker 2: I can't I can't diagnose him, but his actions do
like there's got to be potentially a level of guilt,
and that's kind of what I read. And even with
the actions of his family, it's their son, so there's
probably blinders up, but I feel like the people who
are controlling and quote unquote taking his side on this issue,
there's something there. I feel like that they in the
back of their head and their gut is like, this
isn't right.
Speaker 3: And that's why it's so weird.
Speaker 2: And it feels weird because it's like the elephant in
the room that they don't want to point out. And
the only way that they can not feel that is
to cut off all the people that are associated with
the victim of this potential crime.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, I did what any family member
they care of about another family member would have done,
and that's whatever you can And I feel that's exactly
what I did. That's exactly what the family and Texas did.
And they're far away so it's not as easy for
them to hop in a car like it is for me.
And I feel don did everything she could being a friend.
She reached out to me. It's like, hey, something's wrong,
and I'm like, you feel that too, Yeah, it's just.
Speaker 2: It's not And you guys are close to her, and
we're having people that feel that that are acquaintances of
the couple, that are like, I know him and something
should be done because this isn't justice, and it's people
who are not close to the family. They're, like I said,
just acquaintances. I don't want to say too much to
give anything away, because some of them just said, I'm
not a part of this. But it's people who you
would not expect to want to get involved. And you
know they're not in it because oh the podcast is
starting to spread. They want fame. They're literally saying, I
do not want my information shared. I just want this
to get resolved if it was a crime. And you know,
someone even said like I haven't met when personally I
am an acquaintance of Eric and there's something wrong with him.
And when this happened, we all knew that's and that's
what everyone says. As soon as something happened and they
found out, they said their initial instinct in their gut
was the same thing. You felt, the same thing Dawn felt.
I think it's the same thing the detective felt. It's
the same thing we felt just hearing the story, and
which is why we're like, hey, if we can do anything,
let's use our platform to bring light to this in
case there is foul play.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I can't say it enough.
Speaker 2: I appreciate you, I appreciate everyone that is reaching out,
and we're bringing forward more information than we did have.
Like you said, it was very spot in the beginning,
because we're going off social media posts and third hand
comments of people who are acquaintances. And because of that,
we're now getting very good information and new information that
I think the detective may not even have based on
the reports, that could shed more light on this case.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I'm truly I'm grateful for you guys, to
you know, and to whoever brought this to you know,
their friend's attention, to bring it to your attention. I'm
truly grateful for that. And you know, I can't say
the appreciation of putting this out there, and it has
brought so many people that felt the same thing together.
And there is somebody in their neighborhood that has been
in touch with me and she's like, just to let
you know, none of us believe it was suicide. And
I'm like, these are people in their neighborhood and they
just moved in this neighborhood like October and this happened,
you know, in Mars. It's bizarre, bizarre. I appreciate you
guys in the time and efforts that you're putting in
to this, and you know, anything that I can do
to help or I'm sure there will be other things
that will pop into my head because this has been
two and a half years of you know, nightmare for everyone.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, just send it. You can always send us
whatever you want. And again you can always if you
want to get something off your chest that you know
on the record, just say that. And we have a
lot of people that I think, well, it makes them
feel better if they can just tell somebody, even if
it's not publicly. And all we're going to do is
keep keep shining a light on this thing so it
doesn't dim out, and in doing so, every time we
do this, more comes out. People feel more comfortable with sharing.
So even you coming out and sharing your story might
build up the courage and others that are staying silent
now to come forward. And all this hopefully will lead
to an investigation, you know, reopening the case potentially, And
at the end of the day, I think, deep down,
as much as we want justice, I think if whatever,
if good things can happen for the kids, that's that's
at this point all I really care about is that
they just can move past this and live somewhat of
a normal life.
Speaker 6: And that's truly all I ask for. If they never
have contact with me again, as long as they are healthy,
they're happy, they have a good life. I'm happy for
that because that's what their mother would want it, that's
what she would have wanted for them. But yeah, I
definitely I will send you, guys an email with some
information of a couple people, and then maybe we can
be in touch where I can just make copies and
send this media mail you that way. It's a good
reference guys behind us stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, well, Dora, it was wonderful meeting you digitally on
the phone. Thank you very much for your time. We're
like at like an hour, almost two hours, so I
really appreciate it. I know you've been dealing with this,
like you said, for over two years, so to take
another two hours and repeat all this stuff I'm sure
you've repeated a million times in your own head and
other people, and hopefully we can we can take this
and do some good.
Speaker 6: Well, I appreciate that. And again it's anything you need,
let me know I can help with whatever.
Speaker 2: Excellent all right, Well, well, thank you very much and
you you have a wonderful Fourth of July weekend.
Speaker 6: Thank you you too. Bye.
Speaker 3: Uh huh. So that was the entire interview with Dora.
It was long. We were talking about in the middle of
this thing.
Speaker 2: This is the longest episode we've ever done. Yeah, and
I apologize for my audio quality. I had to call
in that day because I had a crabby baby.
Speaker 3: You know, so I crabby baby.
Speaker 4: I cannot join Joe in person. But yeah, I think
we learned a lot of very.
Speaker 3: A ton of new information.
Speaker 2: If you're watching the video stream, we saw Andy was
pouring through a thick stack of paper.
Speaker 3: That is all you heard.
Speaker 2: Don Kind in the last half of the interview mentioned
the documents that she's gonna send us. We did get
all of those. We're gonna be scanning them in and
going through those. It's a ton of hold hold it
up real quick. I mean, look at this thing.
Speaker 5: About a half of paper here.
Speaker 3: It's a lot.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we got to go through it and make
sure you know what's in. It is legal for us
to mention in public. There's you know, miners involved, where
we're going to redact that information and other personally identifiable information.
But eventually we are going to post that entire stack,
along with a lot of other stuff we have.
Speaker 2: There's some pretty damning things in there, yeah there are.
Speaker 4: There's some statements a little teaser. Yeah, there's some statements
in there that really make you think. And we're going
to post all of the stuff to our website that
will be available for anyone to download. And if you're
listening and have a podcast that does to true crime,
once it's on our website, you are free to use
whatever information you can to get this story out there.
That is what we've been telling people. Luminal, the podcasts
that we've been working with, they just did an episode
on Gwen and we let them use anything from our episodes,
and one of the hosts of that show listens to
our podcast and they've got a great show. I've listened
to several other episodes, and there's a couple other podcasts
that are are interested in taking this story.
Speaker 3: And that's our goal. Our goal is to this inspread.
Speaker 4: We want to get this the pressure built enough to
force the local law enforcements to reopen this case and
give it another look.
Speaker 2: Well, and I think part of it is not even
necessarily because we have so much new information. I don't
know really how to say that, but we have so
much stuff that we know they didn't have that when
people talk to this said, we weren't never questioned, but
we have this.
Speaker 5: We think it's useful.
Speaker 2: They send it to us, and they want to remain
anonymous until they some subpoenas go on or something happens.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that will get the information out.
Speaker 4: So and I was telling these guys while this interview
was going on, I've been contacted by several people in
the local gigahar ri that want to remain anonymous, but
they they have other information and they're like, well, you know,
when this happened, I was thinking about talking to the police,
and then I didn't want to, And so they were
on the fence about going to the authorities over this.
And the case is closed right now, so there's really
no harm. I think if anyone listening has information on
this case, call the Pierce County Sheriff's Department YEP, at
a minimum, lets them know that there's people still concerned
about this case and they don't think that the outcome
of suicide is correct, and if enough pressure builds, they have.
Speaker 3: To relook at it. They just have to. Now, Andy,
you had never heard this interview before. You're a lawyer?
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, what is your lawyerly which is not a word.
Speaker 3: We know you're definitely not a lawyer.
Speaker 4: I am not a lawyer. What is your lawyerly opinion
on what you just heard?
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is it's pretty groundbreaking.
Speaker 3: There we go.
Speaker 5: Your listeners know this. They went through and heard this
whole interview, and there's new facts that are being built,
and there's big facts that came from this interview. And
the biggest one that clearly jumps out to me is
the mention of the knife, the bloody knife. And we
had kind of hit on this before. Gwynn had like
a laceration on her hand as she was leaving the
video on Facebook, it's noted that she had a laceration
on her left arm and we didn't really know where
this came from. Still don't know where it came from.
But a comment from I believe it was from the
daughter that there was a bloody knife in the kitchen
that dad cleaned up is just incredible to hear from
the horse's mouth here. Basically.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the fact is we were talking about this
while the interview was going the fact that law enforcement
didn't dig deeper on the fact that there was a
bloody knife found in the house, and.
Speaker 3: I don't think they knew that, well not at the time.
Speaker 2: Well he meant, yeah, he did mention it, right, or
he that's what it was, she said.
Speaker 3: She I'm trying to It was like an hour ago.
Speaker 2: She made comment about how he said, so, oh it's
it appears it was clean. And then when I heard that,
I was like, that seems kind of suspicious. You have
this guy who, to his own admission when he was
calling in, kept changing his story, was not acting right.
As a history of this stuff, They've been at that
house multiple times, so this this they have this family
is a record. This isn't the first time that they've
been out there for erratic behavior, potentially violent behavior. You
have this little girl saying there's been a bloody knife,
this person who's missing because at that point they didn't
know where she.
Speaker 3: Was so she jumped. They just knew her.
Speaker 2: So you have all these things going on and it
just seems like it was overlooked.
Speaker 3: This is again, I beat it to death.
Speaker 2: I feel like COVID fog was like to them, probably
wasn't a big deal at the time. You know, we're
the only explanation I can think of.
Speaker 4: We were talking during the interview that we're going to
try and get not a gig Harbor or Pierce County
Sheriff detective, but we're gonna reach out to local law
enforcement in the Milwaukee area to see if we can
get a criminal investigator who is currently working for a
police department to come on the show and kind of
review the cliff notes of this case and kind of
tell us their opinion of how they would have maybe
conducted the investigation. It's not going to be like their
professional opinion, but like their personal opinion, like what do
you think. Obviously, like a law enforcement officer who's not
involved in the case is not going to say like, oh,
he's a murderer. Yeah, he can tell us if like, oh,
this is pretty they conducted themselves appropriately. Yes, it would
be nice to to take them through chronologically also to
get his opinion on without the information they would have known,
so say, hey, at this point authorities knew this, what
would you do.
Speaker 3: At this point they knew this, what would you do?
Speaker 2: And kind of just and see if it falls in line,
because I'll be under persent honesty if they say all
the things that this detective did, Like, all right, I
guess that's how it works. Now we have all this
new information, does what does that do to you? Does
that make you want to look at it again? Is
that irrelevant?
Speaker 4: I think this is important because we want to bring
a professional in who does this, you know, in a
different part of the country, has no connection to the family,
to the case or anything. To hear their thoughts on
how this investigation was conducted. I think really could give
us a lot of meaning. And you know, was this
a hurried investigation because of COVID? Did they cut corners?
Like we're not criminal investigators. We were speculating on things, but.
Speaker 3: We're just famous podcasts. Yes, semi f But to hear it.
Speaker 4: I'm really hoping someone will talk to us because I
think it's really important to get a professional's opinion on
this case. And I think the family would really appreciate this.
It's almost like if you go to your doctor and
they say you have cancer and you're like, well, I
need a second opinion, yeah, and they all say no,
you always do that in the medical world, like you
get a second, third opinion, like something in a case
like this where it's very sketchy, it's not like a
clear cut, like we don't have a video of her
jumping from the bridge. Why wouldn't you want second third,
fourth opinion on the investigation, you can.
Speaker 2: Tell that they're grateful for what they did, but you
can tell it with every single person, they feel like
there's something that was missed.
Speaker 4: And we really want to hear the side of the
story from local law enforcem and we've reached out to them.
We want them to come on the show. We want
to talk to them. It could be.
Speaker 3: If this keeps snowballing, they definitely will probably have to.
Speaker 4: I mean, we just want to hear their side of
the story because there's a lot of gaps after hearing
Dawn in Dora's stories, there's so many gaps that were
not covered. I keep going back to the toll booth,
and we've been informed from listeners now that they do
have it's just like Chicago they have like a speed pass,
but it would still it would still record a picture
of who was driving the car at the time. And
if Dawn was that incapacitated, there's no way she would
have been driving.
Speaker 2: Well, and you heard what she said about the vehicle
that it the police unseen sentate didn't seem like it
was crashed on the bridge.
Speaker 3: There was like wood stuck in the side and things
like that. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So I mean having that video or that picture of
who is driving the car would have been so valuable
in this case. I want to know from Pierce County Sheriff,
why didn't you go? And it'd be a very simple request.
I mean they probably do it all the time for
criminal cases. Why didn't you just go and request the
video from the bridge that night?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean what I wanted to and they said it.
The guy said I saw another person in the vest.
Speaker 4: I want to know why they didn't. I just want
to ask the detective why didn't you go get that
picture in that video?
Speaker 3: Then ask him right now.
Speaker 2: We've tried no, no, right now, just ask into the microphone, mister,
detective Detective Christiansen, just detective Christiansen, please come on locations
on and tell us why that video and picture weren't
requested in this investigation. If if there's a valid reason
for why they didn't have that video, that might put
this case to bed, right I mean, or at least
put in perspective like what was happening at the time.
That's really I think, really what we want to know
is what was going on.
Speaker 5: And I think with the investigation, we don't know what
We don't know Right here, we have the police report
and now we're hearing more and more information. Joey said,
this case is snowballing, right, and it really is. We're
filling in the gaps and it brings up more questions
and what was done, what should have been done, and
what wasn't done, and what still needs to be done. Really,
so I think having someone who could answer some of
those questions, an expert, would move this along quite a bit.
Speaker 4: Even a you know, a spokesperson for the Sheriff's department,
anybody that would want to talk to us, because we
have a stack of papers right here that has even
more damning information in it that we were not going
to release just yet because we want to you know,
we got to go through it, cross our t's and
dot our eyes. But you know, this stuff, it's starting
a really.
Speaker 2: The few things that you found any when you're going
through it was pretty remarkable. We can't let's not talk
about it. Now, but it's some stuff. You called out
some things as like, holy crap, did he.
Speaker 5: Say that there's a wealth of information here. This certainly
will not be the last episode on the Gwyn Haselquist story.
Speaker 3: Absolutely not.
Speaker 4: And I think the overall impression I got from this
interview was Dora really kind of filled in the home
life of what Gwen was kind of going through in
the last few weeks of her life.
Speaker 2: And that was the part Dawn missed out. Don only
started learning about the negatives kind of at the last minute,
whereas she spent time with Dora working through these problems,
which to me again also shows she was sharing with
her the negative intimate.
Speaker 3: Parts of her life.
Speaker 2: That's hard to do, that's really hard to do with anybody,
and she was willing to do that. So then what
would cause her to up and do what she did
if let's say she committed suicide and she stops at communication.
Days before that, she had no problem sharing all the
negative intimate details with her, She was reconnecting with her,
She's talking about all those again, talking about the wonderful
things she wanted to do, and then she goes and
pulls this without notifying anybody, and then I think going
against what she said, she would even like want to
leave her kids behind.
Speaker 3: All of that.
Speaker 4: The statements from Doris's daughter, I think a very powerful.
Doris's daughter was I think seventeen eighteen nineteen at the time,
going into college for psychology, and she several times made
the point to say like she did not feel comfortable
in the home after Gwen's death. She felt it was
you know, she just had a bad feeling about the environment.
And did law enforcement in question her.
Speaker 2: I just and again I'm going to defend them a
little bit. Why would they It was a suicide and
this was yeah, the case was done. This was all
kind of after the fact. But that's again why if
we can get them to look at this again. We
have a lot of good new and information from all
the people in Eric's lives, Gwen's life, the neighborhood. That's
where we're getting all of this stuff. They're all like,
like you said, snowballing and we're getting people all the
time come and a lot of them don't want to
share unless there's some sort of subpoena.
Speaker 4: I think I think we need to do a call
to action to people who now just hear me out
to people who live in the area, people who knew Gwen,
know of this situation. Call the Pierce County Sheriff's Department respectfully,
respect peacefully, and respectfully.
Speaker 3: We're not calling. We're not inciting anything. In nowadays, you
have to be.
Speaker 4: Careful, but you know, like if you have additional information,
if you have you had an interaction with him or
Gwen or the kids, or anybody, if you lived near
them and notice something weird, call the Pierce County Sheriff's Department.
Speaker 3: Tell them like I had an issue with what happened.
Speaker 4: Call your local aldermen, call your mayor, like this, this
is not okay that this has been closed.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Even beyond that, Mike, we were talking about the wealth
of information that's out there, and initially on the episodes
we're discussing like ring video cameras or security cameras along
the way, there could be private data out there that
could absolutely even though the cameras from the bridge were purged,
there could be something out there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd want to see that ringing with the Ring
camera is that data doesn't get deleted From my knowledge,
because there's been an uproar with I think Ring is
owned by Amazon.
Speaker 3: Now, oh, then they definitely have that DA.
Speaker 4: And there's been actual issues with police departments requesting data
from Ring without the occupant's permission and like without a
subpoenr or without a warrant, Well they need they need
a warrant to get that kind of So.
Speaker 2: I feel like some of the text messages that we
saw on there could give enough probable cause to maybe
get a judge to issue a warrant to subpoena Rings.
Speaker 3: So what I'm thinking is, is there others I.
Speaker 2: Say, the correct legal terms or close enough, so, but
I won't care.
Speaker 3: Like I said before, all my knowledge is from like.
Speaker 4: What we're saying is there needs to probably be a
coret order to get that footage from a person.
Speaker 3: So you only need probable cause to get a warrant.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean there's no active investigation right now, right
so the.
Speaker 3: Case so it'd be like why are you here?
Speaker 5: We don't have subpoena power. Presumably someone could subpoena this
information as well, but what we really need is to
like move the needle on the official investigation. Yeah, and
more information will do that. And as we go through
this process, we're getting more and more. I think Door
did a good job of saying, like when I listened
to your first episode or your first two episodes, you
knew what was going on, but you were missing so much,
like a.
Speaker 3: Fifty thousand foot view of what was going on.
Speaker 5: And we see what we're missing now, and we're seeing
more and more by the week, right, so it's coming out.
Speaker 4: The thing I'm thinking of, too, is like, if I
was the investigator, I would have gone to Ring, who
I think is owned by Amazon. I'm not sure, and
I've said, can't you know? Or I would have gone
to Jamie this while you're talking, can I get a
court order to see the Ring footage from that doorbell
for the last for the twenty four hours before Gwen died,
and like the twenty four hours after she died. And
then I would have gone and I would have asked
all the neighbors in that neighborhood, do you have any
security cameras that face out towards the road? Do you
have any does anyone else have Ring video? Could we
potentially get video of maybe Gwen driving in her car
down the road?
Speaker 3: Well, here we go.
Speaker 2: Ring was acquired by Amazon for about a billion and
twenty eighteen The video doorbell maker has since expanded its
law enforcement partnerships more than two hundred police departments across
the US, allowing police to request video doorbell camera footage
from a homeowners.
Speaker 3: There we go.
Speaker 4: So if I was the investigator on this case, I
would be going through the neighborhood and asking neighbors, you know,
do you have a ring doorbell?
Speaker 3: Can't you know?
Speaker 4: Maybe at first he asked, can we take a look
at your footage? And if not, maybe get a cord order,
because what if we can get video of the van
dripping down.
Speaker 2: They were under the impression she drove to the bridge
and jumped, so they probably didn't even think to do that.
Speaker 3: But I mean, does it make sense if you look
at the toxicology report and if she's loaded up with
antidepressants that she could have after watching that like twenty
minute video of the drive to the bridge, that she
could have done that. I don't know. I'm playing Devil's apage.
Speaker 2: You know where I stand on this, But I'm just saying,
like in the heat of the moment, with because we
know more than they know, it's you know, hindsight twenty.
Speaker 3: It just bugs me, like if I wasn't it. It's
bugging literally, everybody bugging me. It'd be like, man, this
does not feel like a suicide. I'd want to keep digging.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like if I was not, If it's the beginning
of COVID and you think and you think, you yeah,
you're the.
Speaker 3: First person to be hiding in your house.
Speaker 4: There's gotta be other anyone listening. If you're a criminal investigator,
message us, because this just bugs me.
Speaker 2: We're going to get fake criminal investigators. It is their opinions,
I think is gonna message.
Speaker 3: Us Andy, Well, yeah it does.
Speaker 5: But I also get Joe's saying right now, I do
what The information we have sitting here today is well
beyond what they had, and we have the benefit of hindsight,
and there's always a story. When you look back, things
make sense that information wasn't available to the investigators. But
that's why it's so important what what you guys are
doing here, what your listeners are doing, because.
Speaker 2: What we are here, you're hearing anything good and bad,
or maybe he's doing some lawyer thing and be like,
I'm not with those guys.
Speaker 3: Right right?
Speaker 5: You figured me out, No, And I think more information
will be coming hopefully your call to action is if
anyone listening has anything of value, reach out.
Speaker 4: Please do We're not saying harrass your look absolutely, but
if you have information that was not a part of
the initial investigation, we know the case is closed, they
probably will not take the information out. But if people
are calling and they know people are still concerned about
this case, it just helps build the pressure to eventually
reopen it.
Speaker 3: That's all we're saying. Yep, if you have no you'll
catch more flies with honey.
Speaker 2: So if you're calling them and berating them, yeah, it's
probably they're gonna go.
Speaker 3: We're gonna We're.
Speaker 4: Not gonna post the numbers to the local law enforcement
or politicians. If you if you're just trying to harass people,
don't do it.
Speaker 2: And if you're if you're not getting anywhere, senetas too,
because we will continue to follow this and as we
get more but new and better.
Speaker 3: Information, kind of information.
Speaker 4: Even if you just had like a chance encounter with
anyone involved in this case that seemed odd.
Speaker 3: You should tell law enforcement about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's the best thing you can do.
Right now, We're gonna keep trying to promote the case.
We've got other fellow podcasters that are are picking up
the baton and running with this story. And we're, like
we said from the beginning, we just hope the pressure
builds enough that all we're asking for.
Speaker 3: Is the case to be reopened.
Speaker 4: Obviously, everyone involved is innocent until proven guilty. We just
think the case was closed too soon. Yep, questions answering, Yeah, questions.
Speaker 3: More information has come out since I closed it.
Speaker 4: That if they reopen the case, if they reopen the
case and you know, take all of this additional information
in and then eventually rule it still a suicide case closed,
that's all we want. Maybe for me, that's all I want.
I know, I just want them to reopen it. That's
all I want. So make me Happylan for us.
Speaker 3: That's why they're here to make my happy. We know
you're listening.
Speaker 2: Yes, all right, Well we're gonna end this. We're at
two hours and ten Patreon next for a fun episode. Yeah,
we're going to finish up some more whiskey and we're
gonna do a fun episode on Patreon. So thanks again
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