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<v Speaker 1>I'm tired of being the one defending Thomas Massey, and

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<v Speaker 1>David Strom did it in today's column, especially about the

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<v Speaker 1>so called big beautiful bill, and now David's joining me

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<v Speaker 1>to have a chat about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning or good afternoon, sir.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, hello Mandy. It's always fun to be on with.

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<v Speaker 1>You, and we're happy to have you as always. What

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<v Speaker 1>inspired this column about Thomas Massey? Obviously, he's been getting

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<v Speaker 1>crapped from Donald Trump, who says he doesn't understand how

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<v Speaker 1>government works and he should be replaced, which he won't be.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, nonetheless, is that kind of what got

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<v Speaker 1>you going in this direction?

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<v Speaker 3>It is, although.

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<v Speaker 4>I've also occasionally defended the Senator Rand Paul for much

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<v Speaker 4>the same reason, because they are often the dissenters in

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<v Speaker 4>their caucus and they get absolutely trashed by everyone else

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<v Speaker 4>for not being realistic, and they get called rhinos. They

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<v Speaker 4>get attack like that would laughable, most ridiculous.

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<v Speaker 1>The rhino thing is so hysterically laughable to me, because

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<v Speaker 1>you've got two guys, I'm a huge fan of them,

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<v Speaker 1>both that are actually trying to hold up the ideas

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<v Speaker 1>of fiscal conservatism that the Republican Party used to be

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<v Speaker 1>built on and what we have now, this, this big,

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<v Speaker 1>beautiful bill, is anything but. And Thomas Massey is going

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<v Speaker 1>to be a no vote. I mean that's just going

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<v Speaker 1>to be. He's not going to vote yes for this.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just not going to happen. And that is because

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<v Speaker 1>we'll go ahead.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, two things can be true at the same time.

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<v Speaker 4>One is that the best option for Republicans right now

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<v Speaker 4>is to vote for this bill, and that this bill

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<v Speaker 4>is horrible.

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<v Speaker 3>It should never have been brought up.

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<v Speaker 4>And if everyone in Congress, or every Republican in Congress

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<v Speaker 4>were like Thomas Massey, this country would be far better off.

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<v Speaker 4>If I were in Congress right now, I could probably

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<v Speaker 4>get persuaded to vote for this bill, but I would

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<v Speaker 4>be wretching. I would probably go into the bathroom and

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<v Speaker 4>toss my cookies several times, and only do it because,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, the politics of the situation in Washington are

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<v Speaker 4>so bad that every alternative is worse.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's something right there, David. Because the reality

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<v Speaker 1>about this bill is it not only codifies much of

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<v Speaker 1>the Green Dream spending from the Biden administration, it uses

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<v Speaker 1>the COVID spending as the new baseline.

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<v Speaker 2>So all of that alleged one time spending.

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<v Speaker 1>That drove deficits to two trillion dollars a year is

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<v Speaker 1>now part of the regular budget. That in and of

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<v Speaker 1>itself should be a non starter. But yet here we

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<v Speaker 1>are having a discussion about not only those things, but

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<v Speaker 1>including the salt deduction, which allows high earners in high

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<v Speaker 1>tax states to shove more of their tax responsibilities onto

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<v Speaker 1>other Americans who don't live in high tax states. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>there's so much to hate about this bill. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a knock on Thomas Massey. It's like, Okay, how

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<v Speaker 1>effective is he? Well, he's effective enough that the people

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<v Speaker 1>in his district in northern Kentucky keep re electing him.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's not even close, it's not even remotely close

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<v Speaker 1>when it comes to opponents. But the reality is there's

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<v Speaker 1>something to that criticism because you know you've mentioned Rand Paul.

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<v Speaker 1>His father, Ron Paul was very much the guy screaming

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<v Speaker 1>about debt and deficits for years, but he never got

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<v Speaker 1>anything done ever, never got anything accomplished. And Ran Paul

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<v Speaker 1>I had the opportunity to ask him one time, I said,

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<v Speaker 1>how are you different than your father?

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<v Speaker 4>Right?

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<v Speaker 2>What's the difference here?

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<v Speaker 1>And Rand Paul said to me, I watched my father

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<v Speaker 1>say the right things and mean the right things and

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<v Speaker 1>be very ineffective. And my goal is to say the

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<v Speaker 1>right things and do the right things, but also be effective.

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<v Speaker 1>And I do think Rand Paul has done a better

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<v Speaker 1>job of positioning himself as the small government debt guy

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<v Speaker 1>without seeming quite as fringy as his father ended up

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<v Speaker 1>seeming right, if you were a Ron Paul supporter, you

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<v Speaker 1>were kind of fringy. But I think you can be

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<v Speaker 1>a normal person and be a Rand Paul supporter. So

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, at what point do we show our gratitude

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<v Speaker 1>to Thomas Massey but also go you know, I'm kind

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<v Speaker 1>of worried about if your constituents are gonna get tired

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<v Speaker 1>of feeling like they're not being represented.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I don't know the answer to that question.

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<v Speaker 4>To be perfectly honest, I will say though, that you

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<v Speaker 4>need to have people like me.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 4>To say that he's not effective is just a reference

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<v Speaker 4>to passing legislation and winning every battle. But actually having

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<v Speaker 4>him there does move the ball, because you know, they

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<v Speaker 4>have to, you know, pay attention to the Freedom Caucus.

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<v Speaker 4>And I look at Thomas Massey and I see someone

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<v Speaker 4>who's very different than.

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<v Speaker 3>Matt Yetz Gates.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Matt, you could tell he was motivated by personal animus.

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<v Speaker 1>I think he was motivated by He's one of the people.

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<v Speaker 1>I call them the Instagram Congress people, right, They're the

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<v Speaker 1>ones that are building a brand instead of being statesmen

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<v Speaker 1>or states women. And I don't have any I don't

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<v Speaker 1>have any use for that. Matt Gates is there, AOC

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<v Speaker 1>is there, but now apparently it's worked for her because

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<v Speaker 1>she's the leader of the Democratic Party. But I don't

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<v Speaker 1>like feeling like people are using that position to further

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<v Speaker 1>their own level of fame, and Matt Gates definitely fits

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<v Speaker 1>in that category.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I don't think Massy is like that at all.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that he and some other members of the

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<v Speaker 4>Freedom Caucus actually move the ball, not far, but they

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<v Speaker 4>move it to the right.

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<v Speaker 3>You know. One of the things.

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<v Speaker 4>That's true of the speaker, whoever that speaker is, is that,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, they have to assemble a coalition of everyone

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<v Speaker 4>from the farthest right in their caucus to the people

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<v Speaker 4>who are the farthest left in their caucus. And one

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<v Speaker 4>of the frustrations that we often have is that it

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<v Speaker 4>looks like they're always giving in to the farthest left

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<v Speaker 4>of their caucus.

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<v Speaker 3>But and that's true, but they have to look.

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<v Speaker 4>At their right flank, and they're able to use the

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<v Speaker 4>fact that there are the Thomas Massey's out there to

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<v Speaker 4>tell people on the left flank. Look, I mean, just

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<v Speaker 4>like I can't let you go, I can't let him

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<v Speaker 4>go all the time. And so I would actually push

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<v Speaker 4>back on the idea that he's ineffective.

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<v Speaker 3>He doesn't get.

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<v Speaker 4>What he wants and what we but he does prevent

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<v Speaker 4>you know, he's kind of like a goalie at times.

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<v Speaker 4>He prevents the left from scoring some goals, not enough,

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<v Speaker 4>but he does help. And so I'm very glad that

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<v Speaker 4>he you know, Massey, Ran Paul and people with whom

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<v Speaker 4>I often would not vote, But I'm glad that they're there,

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<v Speaker 4>and I'd rather be in their.

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<v Speaker 3>Coalition than the coalition on the left.

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<v Speaker 1>The thing about both Thomas Massey and ran Paul that

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<v Speaker 1>I like, like this is the number one thing that

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<v Speaker 1>I like about both of them, when they vote in

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<v Speaker 1>a way that I find confusing that I'm like, what

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<v Speaker 1>the heck was that, Like, Thomas Massey just voted against

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<v Speaker 1>the take it down at so I said Thomas and text,

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<v Speaker 1>I go, okay, I know why you're not voting for

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<v Speaker 1>the big beautiful bill. Why did you vote this down?

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<v Speaker 1>And he sent me back along text message that said,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, this bill is so overly broad that it

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<v Speaker 1>is going to sweep up people that it should not

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<v Speaker 1>swep up. And pornography has always been legislated by the states.

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<v Speaker 1>This has never been a federal issue. And we're creating

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<v Speaker 1>a law that is so murky in some areas that

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<v Speaker 1>it could end up shutting down certain AI programs before

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<v Speaker 1>it even gets started. So he always has really good

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<v Speaker 1>freedom based reasons for voting against something, and that's what

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<v Speaker 1>it comes down to, you like, And he told me

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<v Speaker 1>a long time ago. He goes, I look at a bill,

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<v Speaker 1>and I say, does it make me more free or

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<v Speaker 1>less free? That's the starting position for him on whether

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<v Speaker 1>or not to vote for these things. And it's not

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<v Speaker 1>like he wants to be free to put pornography on

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<v Speaker 1>the internet, but he wants to make sure that some

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<v Speaker 1>American is not going to be caught up doing something.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, because of the way the law is written,

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<v Speaker 1>they're going to end up in federal prison for something

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<v Speaker 1>that wasn't necessarily.

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<v Speaker 2>Intended to happen on that issue.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm want to shift gears just a little bit on

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<v Speaker 1>this with you, because I know you write about this

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<v Speaker 1>stuff all the.

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<v Speaker 2>Time at hot air dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>And have you been surprised at all with the speed

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<v Speaker 1>with which former deficit hawk Republicans have just been swept

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<v Speaker 1>into the big beautiful bill.

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<v Speaker 4>Uh surprised? No, very disappointed? Yes, Uh, you know. I

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<v Speaker 4>you know, I've watched, say, the transformation of Tom Emmer,

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<v Speaker 4>who I actually did research for and wrote speeches for

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<v Speaker 4>him when he ran.

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<v Speaker 3>For governor here in Minnesota. Uh. And he was one

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<v Speaker 3>of the.

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<v Speaker 4>Most conservative legislators that we had. And you know I

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<v Speaker 4>watched his evolution and I don't know that in principle,

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<v Speaker 4>uh that his principles have changed, but Washington changes people,

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<v Speaker 4>and you know, the whole calculous shifts. And so Donald

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<v Speaker 4>Trump is there, he can push people around.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh That's part of it.

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<v Speaker 4>And then uh, I think some of it is just uh,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, Congress all legislatures are kind of like high

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<v Speaker 4>school campuses.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh. Uh you know, you want to be the cool

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<v Speaker 3>with the cool.

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<v Speaker 5>Kids, and uh you wind up uh you know, say,

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<v Speaker 5>with you know, if you're in the Emo group, you

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<v Speaker 5>conform to the Emo group.

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<v Speaker 3>If you're in the mean girls, you're with the mean girls,

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<v Speaker 3>uh and do things that you never would do outside

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<v Speaker 3>that group. And I think that's part of it as well.

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<v Speaker 4>And you know, again, one of the great things about

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<v Speaker 4>the masses of the world is they don't care about

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<v Speaker 4>being the cool kid, correct.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh. They keep their eye on the ball.

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<v Speaker 4>And I'll tell you, I mean, uh, I have seen

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<v Speaker 4>so many people get dragged into the group thing that

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<v Speaker 4>happens not just in Washington, but every state legislature and

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<v Speaker 4>to a certain extent, in every institution. Once you get

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<v Speaker 4>ten people uh in an institution, uh, you know, a

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<v Speaker 4>culture develops. And it's very disappointing because that's how we

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<v Speaker 4>have gotten to this place where uh, you know, lots

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<v Speaker 4>of us have been screaming about how you know you

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<v Speaker 4>this can't go on forever, because what can't go on

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<v Speaker 4>forever doesn't uh. And uh usually if if you push

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<v Speaker 4>and push and push, you could go a lot farther

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<v Speaker 4>than you ever thought, say with spending, but eventually, uh,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, you got you got to pay the piper.

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<v Speaker 3>And we're really close to that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I don't know if you saw this today, that

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<v Speaker 1>they just had a bond auction and we're not able

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<v Speaker 1>to sell sell all the treasury bonds, the United States

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<v Speaker 1>Treasury bonds.

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<v Speaker 2>That is a direct result.

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<v Speaker 1>Of these choices, these deficits that were running with no

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<v Speaker 1>seriousness about getting rid of the deficits. My frustration with

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<v Speaker 1>rank and file Republicans, not the politicians, is that they

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<v Speaker 1>all say, we voted for Trump, we voted for Doge,

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<v Speaker 1>we voted for all these cuts. They got all excited

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<v Speaker 1>when we started hearing about it. There's a really good

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<v Speaker 1>chance that the Republican Caucus is going to strip all

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<v Speaker 1>of Doge's findings out of this bill.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a genuine chance.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you were cheering Doge and now you're saying

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<v Speaker 1>we need to pass this bill, you obviously don't know

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<v Speaker 1>what you're asking for.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh yeah, I mean all the things that we cheered

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<v Speaker 4>for in the first several mods are at risk yep.

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<v Speaker 4>And I think that's actually one of the reasons why

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<v Speaker 4>Elon Musk, I mean, he hasn't attacked Congress or anything

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<v Speaker 4>like that, but he said he's not opening his wallet

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<v Speaker 4>for the next elections, and he's clearly going to be

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<v Speaker 4>pulling back out of politics because you know, he's devoted

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<v Speaker 4>the last six eight months towards trying to save the

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<v Speaker 4>United States of America. I think he actually sees the peril,

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<v Speaker 4>and you know, we really are on the cusp. I

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<v Speaker 4>can't tell you whether it's months or years away, but

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<v Speaker 4>within my lifetime and probably within the next few years,

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<v Speaker 4>if we don't change the path, the United States is

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<v Speaker 4>going to go effectively.

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<v Speaker 2>Bankrupt and bring the rest of the world down with us.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>In fact, the only reason why we have not hit

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<v Speaker 4>that point, well, they're two. One is we've been in

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<v Speaker 4>the world's reserve currency and so everyone's economy has been

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<v Speaker 4>tied to the dollar. And the other the other reason

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<v Speaker 4>is everyone else's finances are even worse than ours.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, if you think, oh, well, you know, maybe

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<v Speaker 3>the euro, it's like, no, those countries are total disaster.

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<v Speaker 1>Well to your point, David, when when the UK, when Britain,

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<v Speaker 1>when the empire really fell for all intents and purposes

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<v Speaker 1>in the seventies, they ran out of money, they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>have enough money. We bailed them out like we were

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<v Speaker 1>the ones that wrote the check. There's no one to

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<v Speaker 1>write the check for us. Nobody has thirty six trillion

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<v Speaker 1>dollars that they can just float us, right. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>we're perilously close to a disastrous situation. And it used

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<v Speaker 1>to I mean, I've been talking about this since I

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<v Speaker 1>got my show in two thousand and five, I mean NonStop.

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<v Speaker 2>I've been talking about debt and deficit.

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<v Speaker 1>And it used to really upset me because I really

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<v Speaker 1>believed that we should all pay attention to this, and

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<v Speaker 1>we should all be concerned about it, and we should all,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, be demanding real action. But I've realized over

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<v Speaker 1>the years that a vast majority of Americans just want

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure they still get their stuff. They want

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure that whatever they're owed in their mind

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<v Speaker 1>from the government still flows their way. They're not willing

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<v Speaker 1>to give up any single thing in order to save

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<v Speaker 1>the country. So now I just feel like it's inevitable,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'll plan the best I can. My daughter wants

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<v Speaker 1>to go to school in Europe for college, and I'm like,

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<v Speaker 1>go right ahead, because then you'll feel free to move

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<v Speaker 1>to another country if it really gets bad. And I

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<v Speaker 1>feel terrible saying and thinking that, but I have seen

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely nothing from anyone else other than Thomas Massey and

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<v Speaker 1>Ran Paul and Elon Musk.

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<v Speaker 2>And Chip Roy.

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<v Speaker 1>That is leading me to believe that we can avert

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<v Speaker 1>that disaster. I hate saying that, but now I'm just

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<v Speaker 1>in the acceptance phase.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I mean, that's not irrational, and there are things

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<v Speaker 4>that individuals can do to buffer themselves, depending upon their

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<v Speaker 4>financial situation. And you know, on a practical level, it's

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<v Speaker 4>going to happen with the bankruptcy of the United States,

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<v Speaker 4>is the value of our currency is just going to

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<v Speaker 4>drop through the floor. It's not like they're going to

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<v Speaker 4>quit writing checks. I mean, they are a sovereign power.

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<v Speaker 4>They do have guns, and if you look at every bill,

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<v Speaker 4>it says this is legal tender, you must accept it.

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<v Speaker 4>And so they're going to keep writing checks. There's still

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<v Speaker 4>going to be dollar bills and one hundred dollars bills

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<v Speaker 4>out there.

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<v Speaker 3>They're just going to buy less.

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<v Speaker 4>And less and less over time, and so we're all

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<v Speaker 4>going to get much poorer. So, yeah, you'll get your

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<v Speaker 4>Social Security it just won't be worth what they say

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<v Speaker 4>it's worth.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct.

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<v Speaker 4>You know that three thousand dollars check will buy half

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<v Speaker 4>as much, and so you know it's it's frustrating, but

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<v Speaker 4>I don't see what's going to change it either.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, we're going to wind up, you know, with

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<v Speaker 3>two trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see.

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<v Speaker 4>And at some point, yeah, people are going to quit

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<v Speaker 4>buying US bonds and then what.

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<v Speaker 2>And then we're done.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, then they start printing more currency, which hygh

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<v Speaker 1>pranslates our currency. And this is how all the empires

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<v Speaker 1>before us have fallen.

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<v Speaker 2>I've been watching this.

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<v Speaker 1>Series, this Old History Channel series called Barbarians Rising. It's

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<v Speaker 1>actually very very interesting because it essentially sort of tells

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<v Speaker 1>the fall of the Roman Empire from the other side,

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<v Speaker 1>from the Barbarians and the Goths and the and the

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<v Speaker 1>Huns kind of perspective, and it's interesting to see the

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<v Speaker 1>parallels between ancient Rome and where we are here. And

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<v Speaker 1>you just think, well, hopefully we're not going to be

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<v Speaker 1>invaded by Huns because they were not nice at all,

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<v Speaker 1>and hopefully the Barbarians will be kept at the gate.

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<v Speaker 1>But we're doing it all to ourselves because the people

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<v Speaker 1>of the United States, as everyone in every democracy before

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<v Speaker 1>us is done, have figured out they can vote themselves

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<v Speaker 1>the treasury and that's what they're doing.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, in fact, you know, The invasion of Rome started

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<v Speaker 4>with Rome opening its borders and by the time it

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<v Speaker 4>was done, and you look at the battles for the

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<v Speaker 4>Roman Empire, it was Huns versus Hunts, or Goths versus Huns.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, they were fighting on both sides because the

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<v Speaker 4>Romans imported all these foreigners to do the labor. They

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<v Speaker 4>were the soldiers, they were the you know, if you

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<v Speaker 4>go when you look at what the arguments, then they

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<v Speaker 4>mirror very much what the you know, the pro immigration

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<v Speaker 4>people are saying now yep, and it really is kind

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<v Speaker 4>of shocking. I mean, in fact, the six or seven

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<v Speaker 4>years ago I spent and I continue to do this.

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<v Speaker 4>I started looking at how did the Roman Empire evolve

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<v Speaker 4>and fall? And we're very I think we're in the

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<v Speaker 4>late republic stage, Yes we are.

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<v Speaker 3>And you know the thing about.

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<v Speaker 4>The late republic stage is the republic fell, but the

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<v Speaker 4>empire didn't correct.

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<v Speaker 1>But all the good fell, all the good things, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>all the good fell, and then the evil rose. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it really did happen like that. Then it became totalitarian.

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<v Speaker 1>Then it became we're going to murder everybody. Then it

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<v Speaker 1>became scorched earth. Then it became we're going to rape

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<v Speaker 1>and pillage and steal our things. So yes, I believe

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<v Speaker 1>we are in the late Republic as well. And why

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<v Speaker 1>don't we leave it on that happy note, David, Why

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<v Speaker 1>don't we just We'll just leave that until we talk again,

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<v Speaker 1>David Strom. You should read his work at hotair dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the few subscriptions that I still have that

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<v Speaker 1>is not a substack is hot air dot com. I

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<v Speaker 1>have the VIP package. They don't pay me to say that.

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<v Speaker 1>They should, by the way, it's an outstanding set of platforms.

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<v Speaker 2>But David, we'll talk again soon, my friend.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks Mandy,