Speaker 1: I'm tired of being the one defending Thomas Massey, and
Speaker 1: David Strom did it in today's column, especially about the
Speaker 1: so called big beautiful bill, and now David's joining me
Speaker 1: to have a chat about it.
Speaker 2: Good morning or good afternoon, sir.
Speaker 3: Well, hello Mandy. It's always fun to be on with.
Speaker 1: You, and we're happy to have you as always. What
Speaker 1: inspired this column about Thomas Massey? Obviously, he's been getting
Speaker 1: crapped from Donald Trump, who says he doesn't understand how
Speaker 1: government works and he should be replaced, which he won't be.
Speaker 1: But you know, nonetheless, is that kind of what got
Speaker 1: you going in this direction?
Speaker 3: It is, although.
Speaker 4: I've also occasionally defended the Senator Rand Paul for much
Speaker 4: the same reason, because they are often the dissenters in
Speaker 4: their caucus and they get absolutely trashed by everyone else
Speaker 4: for not being realistic, and they get called rhinos. They
Speaker 4: get attack like that would laughable, most ridiculous.
Speaker 1: The rhino thing is so hysterically laughable to me, because
Speaker 1: you've got two guys, I'm a huge fan of them,
Speaker 1: both that are actually trying to hold up the ideas
Speaker 1: of fiscal conservatism that the Republican Party used to be
Speaker 1: built on and what we have now, this, this big,
Speaker 1: beautiful bill, is anything but. And Thomas Massey is going
Speaker 1: to be a no vote. I mean that's just going
Speaker 1: to be. He's not going to vote yes for this.
Speaker 1: It's just not going to happen. And that is because
Speaker 1: we'll go ahead.
Speaker 3: Well, two things can be true at the same time.
Speaker 4: One is that the best option for Republicans right now
Speaker 4: is to vote for this bill, and that this bill
Speaker 4: is horrible.
Speaker 3: It should never have been brought up.
Speaker 4: And if everyone in Congress, or every Republican in Congress
Speaker 4: were like Thomas Massey, this country would be far better off.
Speaker 4: If I were in Congress right now, I could probably
Speaker 4: get persuaded to vote for this bill, but I would
Speaker 4: be wretching. I would probably go into the bathroom and
Speaker 4: toss my cookies several times, and only do it because,
Speaker 4: you know, the politics of the situation in Washington are
Speaker 4: so bad that every alternative is worse.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's something right there, David. Because the reality
Speaker 1: about this bill is it not only codifies much of
Speaker 1: the Green Dream spending from the Biden administration, it uses
Speaker 1: the COVID spending as the new baseline.
Speaker 2: So all of that alleged one time spending.
Speaker 1: That drove deficits to two trillion dollars a year is
Speaker 1: now part of the regular budget. That in and of
Speaker 1: itself should be a non starter. But yet here we
Speaker 1: are having a discussion about not only those things, but
Speaker 1: including the salt deduction, which allows high earners in high
Speaker 1: tax states to shove more of their tax responsibilities onto
Speaker 1: other Americans who don't live in high tax states. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's so much to hate about this bill. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's a knock on Thomas Massey. It's like, Okay, how
Speaker 1: effective is he? Well, he's effective enough that the people
Speaker 1: in his district in northern Kentucky keep re electing him.
Speaker 1: And it's not even close, it's not even remotely close
Speaker 1: when it comes to opponents. But the reality is there's
Speaker 1: something to that criticism because you know you've mentioned Rand Paul.
Speaker 1: His father, Ron Paul was very much the guy screaming
Speaker 1: about debt and deficits for years, but he never got
Speaker 1: anything done ever, never got anything accomplished. And Ran Paul
Speaker 1: I had the opportunity to ask him one time, I said,
Speaker 1: how are you different than your father?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 2: What's the difference here?
Speaker 1: And Rand Paul said to me, I watched my father
Speaker 1: say the right things and mean the right things and
Speaker 1: be very ineffective. And my goal is to say the
Speaker 1: right things and do the right things, but also be effective.
Speaker 1: And I do think Rand Paul has done a better
Speaker 1: job of positioning himself as the small government debt guy
Speaker 1: without seeming quite as fringy as his father ended up
Speaker 1: seeming right, if you were a Ron Paul supporter, you
Speaker 1: were kind of fringy. But I think you can be
Speaker 1: a normal person and be a Rand Paul supporter. So
Speaker 1: I mean, at what point do we show our gratitude
Speaker 1: to Thomas Massey but also go you know, I'm kind
Speaker 1: of worried about if your constituents are gonna get tired
Speaker 1: of feeling like they're not being represented.
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know the answer to that question.
Speaker 4: To be perfectly honest, I will say though, that you
Speaker 4: need to have people like me.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: To say that he's not effective is just a reference
Speaker 4: to passing legislation and winning every battle. But actually having
Speaker 4: him there does move the ball, because you know, they
Speaker 4: have to, you know, pay attention to the Freedom Caucus.
Speaker 4: And I look at Thomas Massey and I see someone
Speaker 4: who's very different than.
Speaker 3: Matt Yetz Gates.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Matt, you could tell he was motivated by personal animus.
Speaker 1: I think he was motivated by He's one of the people.
Speaker 1: I call them the Instagram Congress people, right, They're the
Speaker 1: ones that are building a brand instead of being statesmen
Speaker 1: or states women. And I don't have any I don't
Speaker 1: have any use for that. Matt Gates is there, AOC
Speaker 1: is there, but now apparently it's worked for her because
Speaker 1: she's the leader of the Democratic Party. But I don't
Speaker 1: like feeling like people are using that position to further
Speaker 1: their own level of fame, and Matt Gates definitely fits
Speaker 1: in that category.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think Massy is like that at all.
Speaker 4: I think that he and some other members of the
Speaker 4: Freedom Caucus actually move the ball, not far, but they
Speaker 4: move it to the right.
Speaker 3: You know. One of the things.
Speaker 4: That's true of the speaker, whoever that speaker is, is that,
Speaker 4: you know, they have to assemble a coalition of everyone
Speaker 4: from the farthest right in their caucus to the people
Speaker 4: who are the farthest left in their caucus. And one
Speaker 4: of the frustrations that we often have is that it
Speaker 4: looks like they're always giving in to the farthest left
Speaker 4: of their caucus.
Speaker 3: But and that's true, but they have to look.
Speaker 4: At their right flank, and they're able to use the
Speaker 4: fact that there are the Thomas Massey's out there to
Speaker 4: tell people on the left flank. Look, I mean, just
Speaker 4: like I can't let you go, I can't let him
Speaker 4: go all the time. And so I would actually push
Speaker 4: back on the idea that he's ineffective.
Speaker 3: He doesn't get.
Speaker 4: What he wants and what we but he does prevent
Speaker 4: you know, he's kind of like a goalie at times.
Speaker 4: He prevents the left from scoring some goals, not enough,
Speaker 4: but he does help. And so I'm very glad that
Speaker 4: he you know, Massey, Ran Paul and people with whom
Speaker 4: I often would not vote, But I'm glad that they're there,
Speaker 4: and I'd rather be in their.
Speaker 3: Coalition than the coalition on the left.
Speaker 1: The thing about both Thomas Massey and ran Paul that
Speaker 1: I like, like this is the number one thing that
Speaker 1: I like about both of them, when they vote in
Speaker 1: a way that I find confusing that I'm like, what
Speaker 1: the heck was that, Like, Thomas Massey just voted against
Speaker 1: the take it down at so I said Thomas and text,
Speaker 1: I go, okay, I know why you're not voting for
Speaker 1: the big beautiful bill. Why did you vote this down?
Speaker 1: And he sent me back along text message that said,
Speaker 1: you know, this bill is so overly broad that it
Speaker 1: is going to sweep up people that it should not
Speaker 1: swep up. And pornography has always been legislated by the states.
Speaker 1: This has never been a federal issue. And we're creating
Speaker 1: a law that is so murky in some areas that
Speaker 1: it could end up shutting down certain AI programs before
Speaker 1: it even gets started. So he always has really good
Speaker 1: freedom based reasons for voting against something, and that's what
Speaker 1: it comes down to, you like, And he told me
Speaker 1: a long time ago. He goes, I look at a bill,
Speaker 1: and I say, does it make me more free or
Speaker 1: less free? That's the starting position for him on whether
Speaker 1: or not to vote for these things. And it's not
Speaker 1: like he wants to be free to put pornography on
Speaker 1: the internet, but he wants to make sure that some
Speaker 1: American is not going to be caught up doing something.
Speaker 1: And you know, because of the way the law is written,
Speaker 1: they're going to end up in federal prison for something
Speaker 1: that wasn't necessarily.
Speaker 2: Intended to happen on that issue.
Speaker 1: I'm want to shift gears just a little bit on
Speaker 1: this with you, because I know you write about this
Speaker 1: stuff all the.
Speaker 2: Time at hot air dot com.
Speaker 1: And have you been surprised at all with the speed
Speaker 1: with which former deficit hawk Republicans have just been swept
Speaker 1: into the big beautiful bill.
Speaker 4: Uh surprised? No, very disappointed? Yes, Uh, you know. I
Speaker 4: you know, I've watched, say, the transformation of Tom Emmer,
Speaker 4: who I actually did research for and wrote speeches for
Speaker 4: him when he ran.
Speaker 3: For governor here in Minnesota. Uh. And he was one
Speaker 3: of the.
Speaker 4: Most conservative legislators that we had. And you know I
Speaker 4: watched his evolution and I don't know that in principle,
Speaker 4: uh that his principles have changed, but Washington changes people,
Speaker 4: and you know, the whole calculous shifts. And so Donald
Speaker 4: Trump is there, he can push people around.
Speaker 3: Uh That's part of it.
Speaker 4: And then uh, I think some of it is just uh,
Speaker 4: you know, Congress all legislatures are kind of like high
Speaker 4: school campuses.
Speaker 3: Uh. Uh you know, you want to be the cool
Speaker 3: with the cool.
Speaker 5: Kids, and uh you wind up uh you know, say,
Speaker 5: with you know, if you're in the Emo group, you
Speaker 5: conform to the Emo group.
Speaker 3: If you're in the mean girls, you're with the mean girls,
Speaker 3: uh and do things that you never would do outside
Speaker 3: that group. And I think that's part of it as well.
Speaker 4: And you know, again, one of the great things about
Speaker 4: the masses of the world is they don't care about
Speaker 4: being the cool kid, correct.
Speaker 3: Uh. They keep their eye on the ball.
Speaker 4: And I'll tell you, I mean, uh, I have seen
Speaker 4: so many people get dragged into the group thing that
Speaker 4: happens not just in Washington, but every state legislature and
Speaker 4: to a certain extent, in every institution. Once you get
Speaker 4: ten people uh in an institution, uh, you know, a
Speaker 4: culture develops. And it's very disappointing because that's how we
Speaker 4: have gotten to this place where uh, you know, lots
Speaker 4: of us have been screaming about how you know you
Speaker 4: this can't go on forever, because what can't go on
Speaker 4: forever doesn't uh. And uh usually if if you push
Speaker 4: and push and push, you could go a lot farther
Speaker 4: than you ever thought, say with spending, but eventually, uh,
Speaker 4: you know, you got you got to pay the piper.
Speaker 3: And we're really close to that.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know if you saw this today, that
Speaker 1: they just had a bond auction and we're not able
Speaker 1: to sell sell all the treasury bonds, the United States
Speaker 1: Treasury bonds.
Speaker 2: That is a direct result.
Speaker 1: Of these choices, these deficits that were running with no
Speaker 1: seriousness about getting rid of the deficits. My frustration with
Speaker 1: rank and file Republicans, not the politicians, is that they
Speaker 1: all say, we voted for Trump, we voted for Doge,
Speaker 1: we voted for all these cuts. They got all excited
Speaker 1: when we started hearing about it. There's a really good
Speaker 1: chance that the Republican Caucus is going to strip all
Speaker 1: of Doge's findings out of this bill.
Speaker 2: There is a genuine chance.
Speaker 1: So if you were cheering Doge and now you're saying
Speaker 1: we need to pass this bill, you obviously don't know
Speaker 1: what you're asking for.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I mean all the things that we cheered
Speaker 4: for in the first several mods are at risk yep.
Speaker 4: And I think that's actually one of the reasons why
Speaker 4: Elon Musk, I mean, he hasn't attacked Congress or anything
Speaker 4: like that, but he said he's not opening his wallet
Speaker 4: for the next elections, and he's clearly going to be
Speaker 4: pulling back out of politics because you know, he's devoted
Speaker 4: the last six eight months towards trying to save the
Speaker 4: United States of America. I think he actually sees the peril,
Speaker 4: and you know, we really are on the cusp. I
Speaker 4: can't tell you whether it's months or years away, but
Speaker 4: within my lifetime and probably within the next few years,
Speaker 4: if we don't change the path, the United States is
Speaker 4: going to go effectively.
Speaker 2: Bankrupt and bring the rest of the world down with us.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4: In fact, the only reason why we have not hit
Speaker 4: that point, well, they're two. One is we've been in
Speaker 4: the world's reserve currency and so everyone's economy has been
Speaker 4: tied to the dollar. And the other the other reason
Speaker 4: is everyone else's finances are even worse than ours.
Speaker 3: You know, if you think, oh, well, you know, maybe
Speaker 3: the euro, it's like, no, those countries are total disaster.
Speaker 1: Well to your point, David, when when the UK, when Britain,
Speaker 1: when the empire really fell for all intents and purposes
Speaker 1: in the seventies, they ran out of money, they didn't
Speaker 1: have enough money. We bailed them out like we were
Speaker 1: the ones that wrote the check. There's no one to
Speaker 1: write the check for us. Nobody has thirty six trillion
Speaker 1: dollars that they can just float us, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: we're perilously close to a disastrous situation. And it used
Speaker 1: to I mean, I've been talking about this since I
Speaker 1: got my show in two thousand and five, I mean NonStop.
Speaker 2: I've been talking about debt and deficit.
Speaker 1: And it used to really upset me because I really
Speaker 1: believed that we should all pay attention to this, and
Speaker 1: we should all be concerned about it, and we should all,
Speaker 1: you know, be demanding real action. But I've realized over
Speaker 1: the years that a vast majority of Americans just want
Speaker 1: to make sure they still get their stuff. They want
Speaker 1: to make sure that whatever they're owed in their mind
Speaker 1: from the government still flows their way. They're not willing
Speaker 1: to give up any single thing in order to save
Speaker 1: the country. So now I just feel like it's inevitable,
Speaker 1: and I'll plan the best I can. My daughter wants
Speaker 1: to go to school in Europe for college, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: go right ahead, because then you'll feel free to move
Speaker 1: to another country if it really gets bad. And I
Speaker 1: feel terrible saying and thinking that, but I have seen
Speaker 1: absolutely nothing from anyone else other than Thomas Massey and
Speaker 1: Ran Paul and Elon Musk.
Speaker 2: And Chip Roy.
Speaker 1: That is leading me to believe that we can avert
Speaker 1: that disaster. I hate saying that, but now I'm just
Speaker 1: in the acceptance phase.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, that's not irrational, and there are things
Speaker 4: that individuals can do to buffer themselves, depending upon their
Speaker 4: financial situation. And you know, on a practical level, it's
Speaker 4: going to happen with the bankruptcy of the United States,
Speaker 4: is the value of our currency is just going to
Speaker 4: drop through the floor. It's not like they're going to
Speaker 4: quit writing checks. I mean, they are a sovereign power.
Speaker 4: They do have guns, and if you look at every bill,
Speaker 4: it says this is legal tender, you must accept it.
Speaker 4: And so they're going to keep writing checks. There's still
Speaker 4: going to be dollar bills and one hundred dollars bills
Speaker 4: out there.
Speaker 3: They're just going to buy less.
Speaker 4: And less and less over time, and so we're all
Speaker 4: going to get much poorer. So, yeah, you'll get your
Speaker 4: Social Security it just won't be worth what they say
Speaker 4: it's worth.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 4: You know that three thousand dollars check will buy half
Speaker 4: as much, and so you know it's it's frustrating, but
Speaker 4: I don't see what's going to change it either.
Speaker 3: I mean, we're going to wind up, you know, with
Speaker 3: two trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see.
Speaker 4: And at some point, yeah, people are going to quit
Speaker 4: buying US bonds and then what.
Speaker 2: And then we're done.
Speaker 1: I mean, then they start printing more currency, which hygh
Speaker 1: pranslates our currency. And this is how all the empires
Speaker 1: before us have fallen.
Speaker 2: I've been watching this.
Speaker 1: Series, this Old History Channel series called Barbarians Rising. It's
Speaker 1: actually very very interesting because it essentially sort of tells
Speaker 1: the fall of the Roman Empire from the other side,
Speaker 1: from the Barbarians and the Goths and the and the
Speaker 1: Huns kind of perspective, and it's interesting to see the
Speaker 1: parallels between ancient Rome and where we are here. And
Speaker 1: you just think, well, hopefully we're not going to be
Speaker 1: invaded by Huns because they were not nice at all,
Speaker 1: and hopefully the Barbarians will be kept at the gate.
Speaker 1: But we're doing it all to ourselves because the people
Speaker 1: of the United States, as everyone in every democracy before
Speaker 1: us is done, have figured out they can vote themselves
Speaker 1: the treasury and that's what they're doing.
Speaker 4: Well, in fact, you know, The invasion of Rome started
Speaker 4: with Rome opening its borders and by the time it
Speaker 4: was done, and you look at the battles for the
Speaker 4: Roman Empire, it was Huns versus Hunts, or Goths versus Huns.
Speaker 4: You know, they were fighting on both sides because the
Speaker 4: Romans imported all these foreigners to do the labor. They
Speaker 4: were the soldiers, they were the you know, if you
Speaker 4: go when you look at what the arguments, then they
Speaker 4: mirror very much what the you know, the pro immigration
Speaker 4: people are saying now yep, and it really is kind
Speaker 4: of shocking. I mean, in fact, the six or seven
Speaker 4: years ago I spent and I continue to do this.
Speaker 4: I started looking at how did the Roman Empire evolve
Speaker 4: and fall? And we're very I think we're in the
Speaker 4: late republic stage, Yes we are.
Speaker 3: And you know the thing about.
Speaker 4: The late republic stage is the republic fell, but the
Speaker 4: empire didn't correct.
Speaker 1: But all the good fell, all the good things, yeah,
Speaker 1: all the good fell, and then the evil rose. I mean,
Speaker 1: it really did happen like that. Then it became totalitarian.
Speaker 1: Then it became we're going to murder everybody. Then it
Speaker 1: became scorched earth. Then it became we're going to rape
Speaker 1: and pillage and steal our things. So yes, I believe
Speaker 1: we are in the late Republic as well. And why
Speaker 1: don't we leave it on that happy note, David, Why
Speaker 1: don't we just We'll just leave that until we talk again,
Speaker 1: David Strom. You should read his work at hotair dot com.
Speaker 1: One of the few subscriptions that I still have that
Speaker 1: is not a substack is hot air dot com. I
Speaker 1: have the VIP package. They don't pay me to say that.
Speaker 1: They should, by the way, it's an outstanding set of platforms.
Speaker 2: But David, we'll talk again soon, my friend.
Speaker 3: Thanks Mandy,