Speaker 1: What is up, fellow sikos. I am Dan fa Valley,
coming at you as always with my startup podcast, had
to his co host mister Grant Hughes. It is time
the long awaited podcast. But absolutely no one aside from Grant,
asked for twenty twenty five all Star picks. The second
round of voting is going to release on Thursday, which
is when you should be listening or watching this. So
look at us being topical advertently, as Grant just put
it before we popped on mister Hughes before we get
into our approach to this, how the heck are you doing?
Speaker 2: I'm doing well despite as you mentioned, I suffered through
a lot of like doubt and questions putting these all
star lists together because I'm sure I forgot somebody or
miscategorized or was biased in one way or another. So,
you know, I guess I'm feeling good, but I have
some concerns. Are Are you in the same boat at
the moment.
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm filled with this immeasurable, ineffable rage directed
at you because you're the one that suggested this topic,
and I'm I am right, I'm actually shaking. I'm like,
look look at look at us steady my hand. I
just I don't know why I agonize over these picks
for so long, because I I exist to try and
make us like the least controversial NBA podcast in the world,
and I just don't want people to get mad. But
then it's so hard to narrow this down, especially when
you factor in the positional criteria. And that's the two
things that I kind of stuck towards. And it will
start with the positional stuff. I really was tempted to
just be like, Oh, this guy's kind of big and
he defends wings on defense, I'm gonna categorize him as
a front core player. I didn't do that, like if
they're not eligible and I don't know, like Kay Cunningham
as an example, I treat him as a guard. If
it comes out that when media actually does their votes,
they're allowed to put him in the forward category, I
will be annoyed because that would have made my East
team a lot easier to figure out. But I really
did try to adhere to okay, like these are what
these players are classified as, Like this is what the
data says, this is what they play, and I'm choosing
selected off that, even though as you know I am
not a fan of positions over even the generalized ones
of this where it's backcourt slash front court, makes it
a lot easier than guard forward, center, for sure. I
want to make that clear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. I definitely agonize less over the positions.
We'll see how stupid that might have been, but it's
it's just I kind of went with like, if I
can justify this guy as a guard in some way,
I'm good with it. Like, I know that's not going
to sync up with maybe it will.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't think I made any crazy leaps, but if it's.
Speaker 1: Going to start me in the back court for the
West victor woman Yama right the threes shoots, tell me
that's not a guard.
Speaker 2: Uh So, aside from positions, All Star is weird. It's
not like All NBA or MVP, which I think we
sort of have a better idea of like what our
qualifications are because they all start thing by definition like
has a fan vote, so it's a bit of a
popularity contest. I didn't approach it that way. I kind
of looked at it as like who deserves it, quote unquote,
and that's gonna include I guess some considerations on like
volume of play in addition to the quality of it.
I had a pretty low bar for like how much
you needed to have played, like Pala Bancaro not gonna
make it, not enough, Zion not whoa. But there's some
guys with twenty something games, you know, and we're thirty
plus in where I just let it slide, and I
wonder if if if if you went that way, or
if like without spoiling it. I guess, but what are
your criteria and does volume matter to some extent?
Speaker 1: I think volume definitely matters when you're looking at differential
Everything matters when you're trying to create some type of separation.
I looked at it as so one of my criteria
was you have to be I have to believe that
you're you could be healthy or available when the All
Star Game is played. And so that's why Franz Wagner
is not going to be on my list because look
at how long Palo Bankaro was out with a weakue injury.
He's returning this week, but Franz Bacner is not going
to be ready by February, and so he would have
made my list if I thought he was gonna play,
so like I consider I gave Luka Dancich more consideration
for the West because he's supposed to be back by
the time All Star Game rolls around. So I didn't
pay attention to Okay, Luca, he's not gonna be eligible
to win MVP, like in two or three days, that's
when his eligibility is gonna go where maybe four days whatever,
But because I think he's gonna be available for the
All Star Game, I gave him consideration. However, I did
approach and I'm with you on the team success that
mattered to me, But like if I was gonna I
focus more on individual brilliance, on who I just think
like these players have been great and it's not I
didn't go try to go with, oh, who are the
fans going to vote for? These are just I'm picking
All Star. This would be my team's. But what I
did with the wild card this year that I'm not
sure I did in years past. If I was like, oh,
this team is really good, but I don't like I
didn't have an All Star for them yet, that would
be the spot where I'd put them, or if I
was worried about availability where it's Okay, this guy's gonna
has missed a bunch of time, is going to continue
to miss a bunch of time. Like that was kind
of for the wildcard spot, unless I think they've been
so just incredible or the field that just allowed it.
But that's how I try to use the wildcard spot
this time a lot of and a lot of times
it's well positionally like this just makes it easier. Like
there's so many guards in the East that deserve consideration.
Your wildcard spots, I think are going to gravitate towards them.
It wasn't like, oh, I have one front court wildcard
and one backcourt wildcard, but I think the big consideration
I gave in those wildcard spots was that's where I
might have waited. All right, maybe I think there's been
a player who's been better, but this player's driving winning
more and we don't have an All Star yet from
their team, or maybe we do and I want to
include multiples. And then that was also the that's kind
of the fuck available availability spot for me too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. It sounds like we'll have some
some differences, which is always interesting. So excited to see
where we land on this.
Speaker 1: We begin with our East starters, which are up on
the screen for anyone who's watching on YouTube. I'll start,
I'll take, I'll leave the East because East Coast bias.
In the back court, I have Donovan Mitchell and Jalen Brunson.
This ended up being like pretty tough for me because
I really did give consideration to Darius Garland be there
as well, even Key Cunningham as a starter in the
back court. In my front court, I have Jason Tatum,
Yiannis and Karl Anthony Towns. Those were pretty easy for me.
I really did do a deep dive into Evan Mobley
versus Karl Anthony Towns for that kind of starting final
front court spot. I think I just value the self
creation and the efficiency and just the level of defensive
attention that Karl Anthony Towns is gonna face as a
featured option. Of course, the scoring volume is there too.
I don't does anything the Donovan Mitchell, Jaylen Brunton, Darius
Garland of it all was tough for me, But Jalen
Brunson drives everything for New York still. Even I've seen
a lot of metrics with like Towns better, I've seen
a lot of people include Kat over Brunton and their
MVP leader board. Maybe start I don't know, if you
want to give us your starters, then we could talk
about maybe backcourt front court like versus. But who do
you have?
Speaker 2: So I did go with Garland. We're the same, except
I went Garland over Mitchell and that was really hard.
Brunson was a lock to me. And maybe this is
a before we get into the Garland Mitchell of it,
Like Brunson's job is just like they's not a stat
for this. You could find plenty of stats that would
serve as proxies for this argument, but his job is
just so much harder than cats, Like his time on
the ball is insane and like just what he's required
to do as a like defense in terms of like
breaking down a defense like second to Shae and drives
per game this year he has a higher assistrate on
drives and Shae turns it over less offense, So Shae
is the gold standard and drives but like Brunson's and
Brunson finishes his drives very differently. But the getting into
the paint is just like that's the threshold thing for
a good offense, which the Knicks definitely have, and he's
just the guy that makes that happen. Kat like we
could talk. I have some insane Cats stats we could
talk about in a second. But like the Garland Mitchell
decision to me came down to Garland has been more
efficient sixty three true shooting, which is just like for
a guard is absurd twenty six usage. He and Jokic
n Sga are the only guys with sixty three true
shooting and over two hundred assists on the year. So
it's like he just he ticks the boxes of just
an elite offensive engine. Mitchell's awesome like that, I think
I put Garland as a starter while acknowledging I think, like, oh,
if I have to start a playoff roster tomorrow, I
probably want Mitchell, you know, over Garland. I think he's better,
But like Mitchell just hasn't quite had the statistical impact
Garland has, and I just wanted to, you know, hand
it to him for that.
Speaker 1: That It's it's actually glad that we both like picked
the other one because I looked at it as Garland
does feel like he drives more of the offense as
a playmaker, but I think they both can do that.
Like you can cast an offense with either one of
them as the primary score or playmaker. The biggest differentiator
for me was so Garland's shoulders what I think don
Mitchell is probably been more effective on defense this year.
Darius Garland's role is harder when you're kind of looking
at the players he goes up against. But Donovan Mitchell
is still the guy on Cleveland who draws the toughest
defensive assignments when he's on offense, Like that's the guy
that defenses are going to zero in on. And so
a lot of the things that are happening, not that
it's by necessity. I do think Darius Garland is just
inherently the better live dribble playmaker. But like his job
I think becomes I think Donovan Mitchell just the existence
of him simplifies life for everyone else around them on offense,
even when he's not on the ball. Again, it was
so close, I thought, by the way, I know you
said Brunton was a lock, I might be reading too
much into his recent shooting slump because he's still at
like what thirty nine percent from three on six attempts
per game, with twenty five points in seven and a
half assists, but I thought not just going Garland to Mitchell.
I mean, they're both headlining what's probably gonna be a
seventy win team like the which is kind of bonkers
by the way. So I gave that like real consideration too.
It wasn't like, oh, I could only include one calve.
I just I'm with you on what you say about
brunching when you're looking at just when you factor in
the playmak. I know Kat's had a good playmaking season,
but the level of self creation Jalen Brunson needs to
shoulder compared to Karl Anthony Towns. So yeah, it was
basically so we're framing it as it's Jalen Brunton plus
a calve in the back court. I think is the
right answer on.
Speaker 2: Cat though, So this is a good time as any
to bring it up. Like so among twenty five point
scorers this season, he has he averages two point one
minutes of touch time per game, which is by far
the lowest. So he's just like he's I don't mean
to in any way like diminish what he's done. He's
been one of the I don't know half dozen best
offensive players in basketball.
Speaker 1: This year.
Speaker 2: But Brunson, in that same group of twenty five point scorers,
has the most touch time per game eight, So he
has eight point seven minutes on the ball in a game,
which is four x CAT and like significantly ahead of
anybody else. And I think that to me. Also, Cat
averages fewer than one dribble per touch, which is unique
in that twenty five point scorer group. Nobody else does that.
So I think that under we're just I'm just like
solidifying Brunson's case. I think where it's just like his
responsibilities are like way just beyond almost anybody else's, and
that offense is super good. But I do like the
synergy of either Garland or Mitchell and it's like fine
either way, Like I can't argue that, you know, Mitchell
doesn't belong there either, it's.
Speaker 1: Do you think that is there any one I mean
that would kind of lead us into reserves like Tatum
and Yannis are just the east front court is not
particularly deep with quality options. I would say so Yannis
just the numbers are insane for him again this year,
the mid range efficiency has held and his defense has
gotten better. There was like it was like if he
to start the year and it's just gotten better. Probably
not what it was two or three years ago, but
it's gotten better. He was easy for me and Tatum. Yeah, okay,
best player on the Celtics, and they've kind of like
slumped off his playmaking a little bit. But this dude
is just I don't for some reason do we still
just not appreciate his ability to create and make shots
from the perimeter or specifically as a three point shooter.
He's in the third percentile grant of three point shot quality,
and yet he's still just downing around thirty seven percent
of his triples per game, the third percentiles three point
shot quality, and.
Speaker 2: He's shooting eighty percent at the rim, which is like
the new dimension like his as he's developed and gotten stronger.
He's just like a nightmare downhill. That's that's like unheard
of for a like a non dunk only like non
Daniel Gafford player to be, you know, to be that
efficient at close range. Giannis, the stat I found that
like Joannis and Tatum are just like they're on they're starting.
We don't really need to, but he went on the
floor ups the bucks transition frequency by almost five percent,
which is like a ninety ninth percentile figure, which, like, man,
you need that, like if they I don't know where
they are offensively, if they're not getting the transition boost
that he he provides, so kind of like looking for
a reason, Like not that we need reasons, but just
like there's there's so many like beyond points, rebounds assists
good defense to to like credit those two guys for you.
Speaker 1: Did You'd already talked about Towns, but did you consider
like was he just was your front court the easy
three or did you consider anybody aside from town I.
Speaker 2: Think Mobiley was probably the So I do have Franz
as a reserve, and had he stayed healthier that would
have made the front core picks and sustained what he
was doing, that would have made the front core picks
quite a bit harder. Even then, like Cat's been so good,
I don't like I'm not bumping Giannis, I'm not bumping Tatum.
So maybe maybe it was gonna be this no matter what.
But Franz like twenty five games, but he has the
same if you're looking at EPM, he has the same
estimated wins still, which is the cumulative stat As Mitchell,
he has more than Steph, more than Caid, more than Luca,
more than Fox, more than Ant like Franz's year, even
though he hasn't played for I don't know what three
weeks now, two weeks, whatever. It is, Like if you
just stopped it now, you'd say, yeah, he's been one
of like the fifteen best players in the league still,
just like cumulatively, because he was so good when he
was there.
Speaker 1: I think if he was healthy and still doing what
he was doing, I probably would have had him in
over towns. He was top five on my MVP leader board.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, we had him all NBA easy.
Speaker 1: I just I struggle with him because it's okay, if
the season and like this is different, then we're just
we're not doing quarter half season all Star picks, like
this is just our all Star picks for what's going
to happen. He's not going to be healthy when they
get like in health miss X amount of time by then.
So I didn't even I have him as an honorable mention,
but I just didn't. I couldn't bring myself to pick
him knowing that he's not going to be eligible to
play in the All Star Game, and then I would
just like a game an injury replacement.
Speaker 2: My thought was like, let's give him the spot and
then that guarantees somebody else also gets in as an
injury replacement. So I'm just I just want everyone to
be an all star Dan.
Speaker 1: I worked out to be the same thing. Then is that?
But you were able to say, oh, I have Frons
here and then I'm going to place him with a.
Speaker 2: Pretty much Okay, So I said I have a Mitchell
as a reserve guard. Who's your other reserve guard? Have
you said that yet?
Speaker 1: Uh? So I have my reserves in the east for
the let's start, let's tackle backward. I have Cad and
Darius Garland. I mean, we went through the Darius Garland
of it all. I don't think that people. I'm sure
Detroit I'm wanna make clear. I think Detroit Pistons fans
absolutely understand how good Keg Cunningham has been this year.
He's been. I think I see too much of people say, well,
he's like he's below fifty five or fifty six true shooting. Yeah, no, shit,
Like he has one of the lowest shot qualities in
the league. And I guess you could blame that on him.
Could he create better separation. But he's on pace to
join Luka, Trey, and Jokic as the only players ever
to average twenty four points nine assists and shoot at
least thirty seven percent from three. And then when you
look at the two hundred and fifty ish players who've
logged at least logged at least five hundred minutes this year,
only four players have a lower shot quality. So for
him just shooting thirty seven percent from three on that,
I think is a really big deal. I also don't
know if we really he's also, by the way, he's
seventh in unassisted rim field goal attempts for seventy five possession.
Giannis is first because of course, and like you just
look at what he does even as a like just
a creator he is basically he's in the top five
of true usage. This is all players playing at least
five hundred minutes. He's the box creation, which is an
estimate of the open shots he carves out for teammates
by drawing. In defensive attention, He's in the top five
of that as well too. This is someone who keeps
popping up when you look at all these individual offensive metrics,
and it comes with he's a better rebounder. I think
he's been better on defense this year. I wanted to
because there are so many guard options in the East,
I wanted to figure out a way to put him
in the front court. But I looked at it, there's
probably enough defensive data to stretch it, just because he
does guard some threes and fours. But it's it's the Luca,
it's the Lebron. It's like this. He is their floor general,
he is their point guard. And so this was tough
when you're looking at the other names that are on there, LaMelo, Trey, Tyres,
Maxi Dame. I think Garland was in for me, So
it was, okay, who's gonna fill that second reserve spot
before we get to wild cards? I landed on Kate.
He's been amazing this year. And hey, by the way,
I'm gonna say this flat out, I have kind of
a rule that if you're gonna be on my MVP
leader board, your team needs to have won the minutes
that you've been on the court. Caid's getting there, like
the Pistons are close to wanning the full minutes with
him on the floor. This season. I had him as
an honorable mention my last MVP leader board, like you
could make the case just based on his importance to
this team that he is a back of the ballot envy.
That is how good Ky Cunningham has been this year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he so I did have to stretch it and
call him a forward and he does make my team
as a reserve forward because there's too many guards in
the East, Like all my guard all my snubs in
the East are are guards. I gravitated towards the twenty
four and nine thing with Kate as well. He and
Yokich the only guy's doing that this year. I didn't
even I didn't even thin slice it for the three
point percentage. I should have done that, And like the
true shooting is not good. But the Pistons just cannot
score when he isn't in the game. It's it's and
I'm gonna use this against another player at some point here,
so I will admit to the sort of like unfairness.
But there the Pistons are at one twelve point seven
in offensive rating. With Kid on the floor, it's like
one oh five. Without him, one twelve seven is not awesome.
It's like good enough, I think, and and he like
he is the reason that it is good. Like if
they you take him away, there's just who else is
like making anything happen for that team. So uh, I
think he's a deserving ford. My other guard, I feel
like this will surprise you is Derek White. Uh he
just makes the like he he he gets the advanced
metrics case, he gets the team's success case, he gets
the individual production. So he's tenth and estimated wins on
dunksan threes, which is the like okay, well, like that's
that's persuasive. His three point volume is like the big
difference this year. He's up to over thirteen attempts per
hundred possessions and he's hitting them at thirty nine percent,
so like and that's a massive jump for him. And
I think like the defensive component of it, like he's
always for me on the short list of the best
defensive guards in the league. He and Wemby are the
only players in the league averaging at least a block
and three made threes this year. So like anytime you're
in like only this guy and someone else with Wemby,
I feel like you're you've done something pretty special, especially
if you're like six or four or with whatever Derek
White is. So he made my other reserve guard spot
and I feel good about it. But I very much
doubt he's gonna make an All Star Game because there
are at least two other Celtics beyond Tatum that like,
people are just gonna vote for before him, but I
needed to get him on here.
Speaker 1: There's wait two others besides Tatum that they're going to
vote for Derek WHI I.
Speaker 2: Mean, Jalen Brown is just the more popular player, and
I thought about him, but the numbers just weren't there.
Feel like people if you ask, like fans that might
vote for All Star Game, like who's better Drew Holiday
or Derek White, I imagine a lot of people would
still say Drew Holliday. They'd probably be wrong, but like
Holiday is the guy with the track record, in the
name recognition and all that stuff. Just talking about like
who actually has a chance to make it, not like
who we would consider the better player.
Speaker 1: So I did go it's just funny. So Derek White
I have qualified as a wing, so he's in my
front court.
Speaker 2: It so we swapped kid and Derek White basically.
Speaker 1: Right, So I mean basically the same deal there and
then I also have Pascal Siakam has been brilliant this year.
Probably some slippage defensively, but he's been one of the
pacers better defenders overall, and just everything about his offense,
his ability to play when they are going at a
faster clip, but also they like when they need someone
to methodically break things down. He's been excellent. There. I
have him, and then I also have Jalen Brown. I
know the three point efficiency isn't there. He is when
you individually on defense, Drew Holliday is the only player
on the Celtics who covers tough assignments than Jalen Brown. Uh.
He just gets to the basket like at an incredible
quit this year. He's able to create for himself a
little bit better. So I felt comfortable throwing him there.
So I do have three Celtics like now, because Derek
White is my other reserve there. I didn't even if
anyone's picking Drew Holliday before Derek White, I would question
a lot of things about their views.
Speaker 2: Well, with the mellow Ball leads among East Guards in
the first set of fan votes, so it is possible.
Speaker 1: First of all, don't get me on a LaMelo ball
right just now, But who did you have as your
front court the front court reserves were? It was so
I had Sakham and then it was not that I
didn't want to include Jalen Brown, but I thought it
was gonna be harder for me. I was like, Oh,
I'm gonna so it's gonna be Jaalen Brown and who
and it was Jalen Brown just ended up being no, No,
he's in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't have Jalen Brown. So I already mentioned
I have Franz talked about him. I have Kaid as
a front court player, so we're not really different there.
We just put them in a different spot. And Mobley
is the other front court reserve for me, Like, we
haven't really talked to a bunch of about Mobley, but
elite rim protection, one of the most switchable guys among
front court players in the league, plus six point one
net rating swing is the best on the Cavs among
their top four guys. I just I don't know what
you how much do we even need to say about him?
He's like a defense He's not gonna win Defensive Player
of the Year because Wemby is a thing, but like
he's probably two or three, and he's been a very
good offensive player on the best one of the best
offenses in the league.
Speaker 1: So I don't know. Well, you point it on an
error on my part because I had him in contention
for a starter and then apparently left Evan Mobley out
in entirely. So Derek White is getting the boot.
Speaker 2: I hate to see it, but I understand.
Speaker 1: It so because Evan Mobley just needs to be in
there for me. He's been spectacular on defense. He leads
the league in points saved at the rim per seventy
five possessions addition to everything else we've talked about what
he does. By the way, he's like shooting the lights
out from three on four temps per game over the
past month plus, better at finishing through contact. They're not
using him as this high volume initiator, but I think
that his passes are of higher quality. On my part,
apologies to to Derek White, but I think Mobly for
me needs to be needs to be in there. So
I ended up with two Celi Dicks. The Jalen Brown
versus Derek White discussion, though, is is interesting. What would
you view Is it just the offensive efficiency for Derek White?
I just look at Jalen Brown as a self creator
and then the rim pressure and then combined with what
he does on defense, I still have him as a
more impactful player than Derek White right now.
Speaker 2: He was one of the really difficult cuts for me.
And when we get to wild cards, I could very
easily be talked into either Siakam or Jalen Brown bumping
the two guys that I have there. But it was
like the efficiency, it was just I think I think
Derek White, like he is a role player ultimately, right,
like Jalen Brown is the guy that can do You're
talking about self creation, but I think White is like
is absolutely perfect at like what he's asked to do,
and Brown's probably asked to do a little bit more.
I just thought the volume of three is the you know,
I'll just regred just hitting what I said, and like
the bottom line numbers just say White impacts winning more
than Brown does. But it's like our defense is scheming
more against you know, Jaylen Brown or Derek White. That's
like that's a very fair argument to me.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna can I give you the list of
names that I considered for if anyone's watching, they see
our wildcard picks up on the screen. But can I
give you the list of names that I considered for
a wildcard spot? Yes, so Derek White, I guess technically,
but LaMelo Ball, Trey Young, Tyres Maxi, Damian Lillard, bam
Adebayo I have, Franz Wagner is an audible mention, and
Jalen Johnson. Who am I leaving that I leave anybody
out there? I thought I was wondering if McHale Bridges
or Ogiannanobi deserved I mentioned there. I think that's a
little bit too deep of a cut. Josh Hart, maybe
still too deep of a Let me just name Nick's
Tyler Kohlik Pecol dadier.
Speaker 2: I. So I think the ones I have that you
didn't mention you mentioned Dame right. I think you said
the name zach Lavine was one that I thought about,
Tyler Hero Sam Vein. Just like ridiculous scoring efficiency, you're
just not getting anything else from either of those guys.
You know, you're getting the like what four or five assists?
I guess, but wasn't real Levine has been if you
start like filtering for like scoring efficiency at volume, Levine
is again just like this guy fills it up, like really,
but I could. I can't make him an All Star.
Same with Hero.
Speaker 1: I did consider Hero and one of your like the
efficiency in the scoring, but just and this is good
on him for doing this, but like I can't bring
myself to pick him over players who are more central
to creating more of the offense for everybody else than
even theirselves. I just he's.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the he's the best, I guess, best
offensive player on a team whose offense like isn't very good,
So like, what what do we do with that? You know?
Speaker 1: Do you know who I also have written down? I
didn't say his name though, and he was never gonna
make it. But when you start getting into the bare
bones front, like Vouch has been pretty good this year.
Speaker 2: Look, look I'm not, like I said, Levine, So I
can't knock you for saying Booch like that guy's making
forty plus percent on like decent volume from three. Yeah,
I didn't have him, but I definitely I you know,
as an also considered, I can't fault you there, so
we so my wild card. I wonder if we have
the same wild cards, because I thought we.
Speaker 1: Don't because you're I can already tell you're a hater.
And it's funny if you're watching on YouTube. And I
decided not to reveal the picks to each other, but
I have to go through it in post and I'll
put the graphics up on the screen so you're knowing it.
But me and Grant are he act thinking real time.
Speaker 2: We don't know each other's paces. Okay, so I assume
we both have Trey Young.
Speaker 1: We do. The passing has been the shot offficiency's clearly down,
but and Jalen Johnson has been great for the Hawks,
but Trey Young is still just the engine for everything
they do. And he's playmaking this year for I don't
even carry his averaging twelve plus. He's just off the
charts when you're looking at his creation ability.
Speaker 2: And I think, like I have all the same stuff.
He's a plus ten point two offensive rating swing, which
is elite among guys that play a thousand minutes or more.
This year the fewest field goal attempts per game since
he was a rookie. So like a little bit of
credit for kind of being like a less is more
even though the efficiency still is not there, Just like
being more of a passer and that's where the twelve
assists come from. And the Hawks score at one hundred
and fourteen points per hundred when he's on, and that's
just that's a top ten rate, and he's the reason
it's good. And that just I thought I was gonna
have to like stretch for a Trey Young case. But
of my two wild cards, I feel world's better about
him than the other guy. So your second one must
be Lamello.
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you have him?
Speaker 2: He's a no. He isn't also considered for me. My
other one is Haliburton, which I feel like I had
the bigger question between him and Siakam and I landed
on him a couple stats. EPM still loves him, even
though I've like said several times that he's just not
good anymore. He's in the ninety seventh percentile and offensive
estimated plus minus. I'm gonna knock off his October games
and so. And it's November one, nineteen nine and four
forty five from the field, thirty eight from three eighty
seven from the line. He was over sixty percent true
shooting last month. He's at nearly seventy percent this month.
Like gradually we're getting back to like good Haliburton and
with the advanced metrics, still loving him as much as
they do despite him having like a real rough start
considering his role on the team. Like, I just it
really like the comparison between him and Mellow is fascinating.
LaMelo is fascinating because like LaMelo's numbers are all just better.
But I just am never going to be persuaded. Maybe
you can do it that like he actually is a
more deserving All Star than someone like Haliburton.
Speaker 1: I mean, when you frame it that way, I don't
want to sound Look.
Speaker 2: No, no, there's a case I thought about him, like,
I just you're the LaMelo believer. Well, I mean, relatively speaking.
Speaker 1: Look at what and who is around him? Who is
the second best player on the Hornet's Brandon Miller, who
was the third best player on the Hornet You don't
even know his name because I'm not even sure there's
a third best player on the Hornets right now. So
Eddie Jones, he's in the ninety eight percent time people say, oh,
he's just he's chasing shots. The shots he takes are
stupid and okay, sure they're going in in a reasonable
enough clip to where you say, just keep shooting them.
He's in the ninety eight percent file of self created
shot making. So I'm not talking about volume, I'm talking
about the actual shot making. The Hornets have a higher
offensive rating with him on the court than the Sixers
have with Tyre s Maxi on the court. Who is
another name I considered, And okay, it's like the Pacers
have a higher offensive rating when Halliburton's on the court.
But look at who Haliburton gets to play with, Siakam
and Myles term even Bennetic Matt Like I don't like
Damian Lillard, LaMelo has basically the same offensive The Hornets
of the same offensive rating on the court with LaMelo
as the Bucks have with Damian Lillard. And look at
the guys that they have around them. He is literally
I shouldn't say literally because that's apparently a sign of
low IQ, so I'm gonna say literally, But he is
dragging this team fig offensive.
Speaker 2: He's concreatively doing it.
Speaker 1: He's he's the reason that like it might not always
look pretty, but like and also the stuff he does
where it's the game that they won against the Suns,
who are just a fucking shit show at the moment.
By the way he scored off his own miss three
or four times like this, Like he just keeps going
at you, and there's he doesn't I like, and there
are a lot of players like this, but like he
just doesn't remember the last shot. He will pay three
shots on the same quote unquote possession if the Hornets
are gonna get an offensive rebound, even if they don't
go in. And so I know there's I know he's
not good on defense. He should be better when you
look at the physical tools and what we actually know
he's capable of. But this is someone who is just
averaging over twenty nine points per game. He drives the
entire offense as a playmaker as well. And the fact
that like he takes these Yeah, these shots are ridiculous,
And it'd be cool if he was shooting thirty seven
percent from three instead of thirty four percent from three. Uh.
But if you're gonna average thirty points per game and
have perhaps one of the three or four most difficult
shot diets in the league, and you're still going to
average seven assists per game, which would actually be higher
when you look at the number of times teammates either
don't catch your passes or miss off your passes. I
think he's become underrated. You don't like if you want
to say he doesn't drive winning, why does Tyrese MAXI
drive winning as an independent star? What is the evidence
we have that Tyrese max is going to do that
if he doesn't have another tier, like one player alongside him.
And I'm now I'm denigrating Tyrese Maxey, but I'm just saying,
like you don't just get It's kind of like the
conversation about why did we anoint the Thunder instead of
the Caves. We have doubts about the Caves, but the
Thunder are gonna win the title, even tho they're both
on pace to win seventy games. I see a lot
of that with Lamel. And look, he's bad on defense,
like the self creation, the passing ability. I'm going to
take him over a lot of other guards in the
Eastern Conference.
Speaker 2: I gotta say, like, I think all of the arguments
that I would lean on against LaMelo just like don't
it's hard to support him with numbers or it's and
just because it's like no, I'm just being honest, like
I do. I guess I'm more bothered by like the
unserious is the word that constantly gets applied to him,
and that does bug me a little bit, Like I
think some of that is unfair because like his game
is just like not casual, but it's like it's just loose,
like he he is very comfortable and that's almost that's
a feature and not a bug. Sometimes I think and like, yeah,
what's he supposed to do with the talent that's around him?
Speaker 1: Great?
Speaker 2: Great question, Like I don't know if you put Haliburton
or Tray Young on that team, Treyng's probably a little different,
but like what that offense would look like. I just
I don't have great, like statistically supported arguments against LaMelo
because you do at least I mean, defensively, it's like atrocious.
But if you just like, how much do we care
about that we're talking about I'm talking about Haliburton and
Trey Young ahead of him, so like it's obviously not
that important. I do think it's just like the feel
I get and I don't know like that this is
maybe not the best basis to make an All Star pick.
Fortunately these don't count. Nobody cares, uh is He's just
like I guess I just don't believe that what he's doing,
it's just what you're saying is like driving winning, which
is kind of unfair. I'll concede that.
Speaker 1: Who's driving winning on this Hornets team?
Speaker 2: Nobody? That's the problem.
Speaker 1: Who are you taking in the league that will drive
winning for the current version of the Charlotte Hornets with
all the injuries they've had to suffer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, who would be doing a better job than LaMelo?
Speaker 1: I think I actually think the fairest aside from defense,
would like he is. He can be stiff and inattentive
on defense. I don't have an I don't have an argument, and.
Speaker 2: Like for him, now this is not a good quality.
But it's like he's got to be thinking like what's
the point, Like there's no there's no defense anywhere here?
Like why am I gonna? Well that's a bad tone setter,
But he's not wrong.
Speaker 1: I actually think the most poignant form of criticism for him,
and it's more subjective, would be you if you truly
don't believe that he is wired or able to play,
let's use offense as an example, or just play differently
overall on a better team, and it's give him a
better which you just you haven't because even though the
Hornets have real NBA players, they have not all been
availed bullet once in how many years? And by the way,
LaMelo is a part of that. I just think he's
putting I mean, thirty points and seven plus assists forgett Like,
I can't ignore that when you're just looking at like
these shots are thirty four percent from three. It doesn't
sell when we're talking about it, but when they're all
basically self created and there's just no one else to
do any of this, like Brandon Miller comes closest, or
do you want to see like message try and like
bank in threes from the corner or something. I don't
he By the way, the other thing I didn't note
with him, he is the percentile for true usage, like
which factors in playmaking and all that he's in the
one hundred percent tile of true usage because the Hornets
do not have anyone else. Yeah, and so the fact
that he's doing this and isn't less efficient, I do
that as an absolute win. And I thought Tyre's Halburton
was just too inconsistent for me because I think if
you were saying, who are you taking for the next
X amount? Of years. It's a discussion, but most people
would take Tyre's Haliburton. This season specifically, it came down
to like kind of the Maxi and the Lillard. For me,
the Hornets have a better net rating with the Melo
on the court than the Sixers do with Maxi, and
the Bucks still have not won their overall minutes with
Damian Lillard on the court, so he's close to what
the Hornets were with LaMelo. Tyres Haliburn is an interesting pick.
I don't hate it, but I didn't. I'm not gonna lie.
He didn't come down to like one of the final
two or three.
Speaker 2: For me, I don't love it. I will say I
were you surprised about how easily you could dismiss Maxie
and Lillard? Because I looked, you know, just started looking
once I got down to the last couple of wild cards,
I was like, Oh, no, that's that can't it's not
going to be those guys.
Speaker 1: I think Tyre's Maxie probably wouldn't even be a blip
if it wasn't for just like he's been on a
tear for a little while now, but he kind of opened.
He had the injury, of course, and he also opened
the season, wasn't like shooting too well from the floor,
and I still just have questions about again, the sixers
have not been nearly healthy enough. But just like, is
this someone we know LaMelo, we know Tyre's Haliburton can
drive offense independent of having another elite option on the court.
The returns for Tyrese Maxie are still sort of iffy there.
Speaker 2: I think Maxy's really interesting. He's almost got like the
Levine criticism of like he'll make the one pass, but
like it just he's not like a born facilitator like
basically the other three guys that we're talking about, and
what like I don't know what that like scales to,
you know, like he's super fast and he gets downhill
and he shoots a lot of threes and he makes
him like is he like I don't, I don't. He's
not like a capital P point guard, I don't feel
like And that just kind of puts a ceiling on
like how much offensive value you can really have if
you're not the guy that's like constantly making the difficult
passes to set other other players up. So and like
he just was way over stretched to start the year
and that destroyed his his efficiency numbers.
Speaker 1: Did you have any deeper cut name just listed before
we gets to the front court that you or no,
we already did that, but like that you just considered.
I had the name was written down. I never thought
I was gonna pick him. I had cast the burden
in there.
Speaker 2: Well. I actually had a quick second where I was like,
should I consider Peyton Pritchard because like if you just
he's played like enough minutes to where it's like more
than guys like Steph or like comparable to some other guys,
and just all the advanced metrics love him because if
you make a trillion threes? Uh, you said Jalen Johnson.
I gave him a quick look. I'm just trying to think,
like who else not yet? So my my official like
toughest snubs Levine Brown, Siakham, Hero, Dame LaMelo Bam. Weird
year for Bam that like not even really a thought
for him.
Speaker 1: I still think he's a quintessential eye test player, especially
on the defensive end, but like the offense has been
weird this year would probably be the most charitable way
to put it from him, So that was probably a
tough cut. Derek White ends up being I thought I
had him in there, but Mobley's absolutely an.
Speaker 2: All star from over White.
Speaker 1: Although you put Derek White and over the mellow, I
guess I could do something like that, but I still
just I value the self creation that LaMelo has. We'll
recap at the end when we get to it. But
we were onto our Western Conference starters, and because it's
West Coast bias time grant we got all.
Speaker 2: Right, So let's go with the guards to start SGA
like non negotiable time you want to spend on SGA
plus fifteen point one net rating swing when on the floor,
lea leader in drives just like the most singularly unguarded
lately too. Yeah, he's just he just he's it my
second guard. I was surprised I landed here. Maybe listeners
and you won't be. But I did end up with
Steph Curry as the other starting guard in the West,
and I came into this thinking it wouldn't be him.
Speaker 1: Could I just say, I think you are the only
person who were surprised that you picked Steph Curry, one
who knows our brand would actually, I think be more
surprised if you didn't pick.
Speaker 2: Well, I think these last handful of games and just
the the developing narrative of the season for this team
is like the real problem here, And this is what
I was sort of buying into, is that Steph and
Draymond just aren't what they were and and like you
look at the counting stats, and part of that's the minutes,
but like they're just down and just everything looks harder
for Curry as you're watching games, like separation's harder to get.
His finishing is not as good. Just the turnovers seemed
to be more egregious. Like he has games where he's
just like, you know, he had a scoreless game, like
he just the bad games have been bad. And then
there he is with like a one to seventeen to
nine offensive raiding for the Warriors, which are just a
dog shit offense if he's not on the floor, and
they look, you know, among the best in the league
when he's out there, sixty two true shooting, thirty one
percent assist rate, which are both up from last season.
So I was like stunned that there were stats that
are up for him. So I just you talk about
the gravity all that stuff. I didn't think he was
going to be a starter for me and then it
just became like, oh, no, he just has.
Speaker 1: To be I think if Luca didn't miss so much time,
that might have been the way to go. But yeah,
I don't know. Do you have in the front court Jokic?
Speaker 2: Do we want to talk about him at all? Like
there's just nothing to say there.
Speaker 1: He's fucking the Celtics.
Speaker 2: Yeah, didn't want to see him, didn't want to give
him forty seventeen and eleven like he probably would have
in a loss. Uh, Jokich won. Jokich is the first one,
obvious one. I also have Wemby. Uh, Wemby's gonna start
best defensive player in the league. Shooting a million threes,
holding the opponents to fifty percent inside six feet. That's elite.
Opponents don't shoot very much when he's on around the basket.
Temp frequency at the rims down like four percent. That's
excellent among bigs with a thousand minutes. The last one's
Anthony Davis. Another one that I was like, am I
really gonna and then just I don't think maybe you
can point to somebody that like definitely deserves it over Davis.
That was more where I landed, was like, yeah, he's
not an MVP candidate anymore, not a defensive Player of
the Year candidate. But the numbers just like are what
they are. He's an awesome player on both ends. That's
hugely productive.
Speaker 1: I think if Kevin Durant had played more, you could
have gotten to him. Jared Jackson Junior might be worth
a look, but I actually ended up with the same
exact starters as you. I mean the So just to
tack on to Steph, by the way, you mentioned the
offensive ratings swing, the Warriors have what would be a
top seven net rating when Steph is on the court. Like,
really think about how bad the Warriors are right lately.
Speaker 2: And way worse than that over the last like six weeks.
Speaker 1: He also ranks in the ninety nine percentile of three
point shot making despite being in the fourth percentile grant
of three point shot quality. Yeah, and he's in the
ninety six percent tile of self created shot making and
the one hundred percent tile of passing quality. This is
that comes back to the word that you use of
just gravity where it's okay, Steph isn't necessarily the best
one of the best passers in the league, but defenses
are around him, Like, what did you say before a
minimum of two and a half defenders are on him
at all times.
Speaker 2: There's two and a half guys on him every possession.
And if he gets the ball off like he does,
throw a lot of real bad pass like lazy passes,
careless passes. But if he gets it off, whoever ends
up with it is open, like that's just what happens.
Speaker 1: And dunksan threes is epm. Like they still have him
as a top ten player in the league based only
that's not the end all be all, but that's I
don't I think some people say, oh, look at the
Warriors of Steph playing like no Steph can be an
All Star starter, and it's it's actually fine. The Shay
for me was just easy. I actually think, you know,
my latest MVP leader board, I still have Jokic, but
I really do think that Shay is and I I
guess I have to do a Maya cope on that.
I really thought Jokic was gonna run away with this.
And the Nuggets have actually gotten better optically when you
look at their spot in the West in proximity to
maybe being the third the third seed or the second
seed or whatever. But like Shae is just the Thunder
can't score without him, and he's he's not. They win
with generational defense, but he's an active participant in that
generational defense. So I think he's made that a case.
He was easy for me. Davis was interesting. His scorings
kind of dropped down a bit, but I still think
he's really good on defense, even though the Lakers aren't
all the time. They did clean up some issues and
then a lot of them came back against the shorthanded
Mavericks the other night, but they're using him as an
offensive hub still. So like the scoring is down, but
like when you look at him versus a mobiley for
an example, like Mobley isn't necessarily a shot creator in
that way, and Davis has kind of become that this year.
And then Wemby. Wenby is just what you meant best
defensive player in the league, and all the last month
he's just averaging over twenty eight points per game, shooting
almost forty percent from three on ubsurd volume shooting. By
the way, he still fifty four percent or whatever inside
the arc during that time. This is the best defensive
player in the NBA always has a case to be
an All Star. And so when even though you're looking
at this as a full season thing. Webby's been didn't
start off the year great, like he's been on a
tear for now half of the first half of the season,
and so you're the best defensive player in the league
who's now just unguardable on the offensive end, where you're
looking at your ability to get up and make threes.
I don't, I what's the argument against him being a starter?
Speaker 2: I don't have one. I want to ask you just
while we're on him, because we haven't really talked about this.
I don't think, like, what do you do you have
thoughts on I don't know if it's like a like
rampant criticism, but you do see it a fair amount
of like why is he shooting so many threes? And
not just in this why is anyone shooting so many threes?
Like not part of that discussion this year, but just like,
how do you feel when he's like shooting from d
with like the volume that he's shooting with, which is
like it is like surprise, it's unusual. But do you
have an issue with it? Is there something you wish
that he was doing instead of that? Or like is
that the way forward? Offensively for him. Just what are
your thoughts generally on his on his three point shooting.
Speaker 1: I really wish that he was just getting more catch
and shoot looks inside the restricted area. Yeah, like let's
bring back poor spacing. No, I'm being faceted.
Speaker 2: No, No, that's a real thing though, Like I wonder, like
can't why don't you just dump it in it or
like have him duck in or cut through like I
don't know.
Speaker 1: So I do think. I think it's both situational and
by design. So by design is if you want to
I don't want to see Wemby being dumped the ball down. Well,
if you want to get him moving downhill, and that's
how you want them to finish it the rim more often,
I get it, But that will take a wear and
tear on his body. And he's just not built. He's seven,
he's eight feet tall, grand and he weighs like a
buck thirty like whatever he weighs. The other thing, too,
is I don't know that the spurs are built for
him to do that part of him like he can
get off threes, but like he he is mission critical
to their spacing at the moment. If he had different
personnel where the primary front court partner besides like Jeremy
Sowen has been good this year, but he's not the
ideal front court partner for Wemby. And even when you're
looking okay, Chris Paul's brought some structure to the offense,
but between him, Trey Jones, and Stefan Cassel, it's not
like you have just a ton of these great tacticians
in their prime that are going to put Wemby in
the right spots with the ball. And even if you
viewed Chris Paul as that, which he still is, none
of the names I just listed are really opening up
the floor, including Chris Paul, who has up this three
point value this year. So I almost view it as
what would the Spurs offense look like if Wemby wasn't
taking him making Yeah, I think it would be a disaster.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think I agree,
Like I was kind of playing Devil's advocate with like, well,
why not get it closer to the basket as you were.
I think there's a good argument to be made that
the maximal value offensively he can provide like going forward,
and certainly this year is as like a player whose
main offensive thing is a ton of three point shooting
just cause like one nowear and tear, we that's gonna
be a thing you have to worry about. There's like
different wear in tear right, like you know, you get
tired run around screen or whatever. But like, isn't isn't
a guy that's the best defensive player in the world
who can also force you to put a big guy
on him because if you put a guard on him,
like he's not even gonna see him when he's shooting
from deep right, So like like those are all open
shots if some if the guy that's on him is
six five basically, so you have to put a big
on him, and then that big is not in the lane.
And so like you have just created the most like
scalable slash suit. Like the value he could provide if
he's like a thirty eight percent three point shooter that
gets up ten twelve per hundred, Like that's that's like unsolvable.
I feel like, you know, for for other teams.
Speaker 1: Couldn't isn't the other part of it too, It's like
let's use Kevin as an example. Who is it? I
guess if he wanted to play the way Wenby was,
he could, but he's what five six in is shorter
to or I guess what he's listed. He's probably a
foot shorter according whatever he's listed at. But like his
handle is never going to be as tight or as
just mechanically sound as someone who's shorter, because the ball
has to travel a greater distance. He still can work
on the interior because he's relative to Wemby, or relative
to NBA players, he's closer to a normal sized human
being Wemby, his handle's not going to be as exposed
that far out from the perimeter. And it also puts
you in a situation where maybe you don't want him
handling the ball as much because that he's never that's
never going to be Turnovers might always be an issue.
I don't know that he's because Kevin Duran has never
had the best handle in the NBA. He's had a
great handle for just the size that he is in
the distance the ball has to travel. But this also
puts Wemby in a situation to where you technically theoretically
don't have to dribble as much, or it's more of
a casual dribble because in theory at least not right now,
you're not facing as much pressure as if you were
going to get downhill or even if you were working
from the post.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think too, like he doesn't just shoot
like toes on the line, he's like a good's not
a full step for him, because that would be like
beyond half court, but like a normal person's full step
behind the line. And just like forget who who they
were playing. Maybe it was in the Denver game, like
it's it's it's the thing. I always think when Donovan
Mitchell shoots, is like guy that comes out easy, like
what an easy ball he shoots. It's just so it's effortless,
like good bass, like really you expect it to go
in even like slightly off balance. It feels like he's
got like a good like again good bass like that.
I just think I think there's a great chance Wimby's
like a forty percent guy like at some point at
some point and it's just making you know, four or
five six a game something stupid like that.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's also something too, And we've seen
him defend in a bunch of different ways, but him
also just taking so many threes, like against certain teams
that's going to take their most valuable defensive player out
of their comfort zone, like not ever going to be
able to game to put specific players on like where
they can leave someone around the rim, and so then
that opens up stuff for everybody else. I guess some
people don't like watching it, but this is just I
find value in what are just basically anomalies, and that
like Wenby is an anomaly in so many ways, and
so again we might be in our silo and there. Look,
I think if the Spurs look different if they made
a trade for Diaron Fox, or if there was just
like someone did the front court was built differently around him,
if you wanted him to get more kind of catch
and roll or catching go looks. I totally understand that.
I just don't even know if the Spurs are built
for him to do that optimally right now? Reserves in
the west, all right.
Speaker 2: So I did give Luca one of the guard spots.
He's you know, twenty eight eight and eight stupid high usage,
just like all the usual Lucas stuff. It's just a
volume question. I get it if if, like you know,
he hasn't played quite enough. I think it was close
enough for me the other guard that I went with.
This is where it was getting really difficult for me.
I did go with Wards. I think, like we've talked
a little bit about how it's so impressive that he
is clearly not like in his optimized role and is
still just like excelling as a super you know, thirteen
and a half threes up per one hundred possessions, making
almost forty three percent of them. It's not quite where
he was last year defensively, at least during the playoffs,
but it's still just someone that, like, you're not going
at him ever. I think that offense is basically designed
like antithetically to his success, and he's still been a
really good offensive player. So I don't know, I'd be
curious what your thoughts are on Edwards, but there was
a met there where it was like, is he gonna
make it at all?
Speaker 1: That's I'm surprised you think I didn't have any qualms
about it. He's in my back court.
Speaker 2: Okay, we're as a reserve. Sorry, and do you have
Luca as well?
Speaker 1: I do, I bandied about because so I still have
an unsettled spot as we're recording this right now, because
I put Luca as a wild card at first, just
because of the injury, but he's just been good enough
to reserve. What what's the difference? Like, it's just you
could whoever I like, would open up allow me to
put a front court player in the wild card spot,
so I both him and Edwards in the back court
as well. And just I mean, the mass been the
thing about Luca to this season, the one the mass
are killing it when he's on the court. They're plus
eleven point four per hundred possessions. But while his scoring
his counting stats are kind of down. He's spending more
time away from the ball, and I like, is there
or should this not be part of the All Star conversation.
We've now seen him play on faster versions of the
Mavericks this season and last, and now it's, oh, he's
off the ball a lot more, isn't there kind of
valuing this player is more malleable than we thought because
part of the biggest forms of criticism for a James Hardener,
a Trey Young and even Luca has been their functional rigidity.
And Luca's just more flexible than he was a couple
of years ago. And I think that's really cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it felt like a want to as
opposed to like a can't you know, like he yeah,
of course he could be good off the ball, and
like I sort of held it against them that he
wanted to be so heliocentric. So just coming at it
from a different angle, it's like a huge positive that
he's has been willing to and has predictably like been
good at sort of like scaling down his like extreme
on ball usage. I think that is a positive.
Speaker 1: Who's in your Yeah, so we have the same backcourt.
Was there anyone else that you were Oh, well, I
guess that could be in the wild cards, So who
was it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, front court, there's a lot of guards that I
really agonized over and we may have to talk about.
So I did have Jalen Williams as a reserve forward.
We talked about off air, just like what do you
call this guy? Positionally, I feel like our a front
court player. His true shooting is under fifty six percent,
Like the efficiency has not been there, but he's still
twenty five and five. The best defensive season of anybody
maybe other than like Wemby and Davis in the West
that we've talked about so far. We spend a lot
of the season guarding centers, is a huge part of
a historically good defense, just just enough production. And he's
still like even though if you really dig in, like
the thunder are way worse when he's on, Like the
net rating plummets when he's on, a lot of that's
because he's overtasked as like the main creator with no
SGA and lineups that don't shoot it. Well, none of
that was gonna keep him off my team, Like, first
of all, we're getting too thunder and Chet's not gonna
make it. So it's got it's got to be him.
But he's been good enough on both ends. I think
even if the efficiency's not where it's been.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't know how much you because he's
been so good on defense and probably offset the like
let's use someone who can't be a good self creator.
But if they're going to bridge the gap with the
defense and just being an awesome compliment, I think that's
fine to put him on there. So he also made
my reserve.
Speaker 2: Lisk Okay, the other two reserve front courts for me,
I did. I just felt like felt clean, felt like
a nice way to go. Are just Lebron and Durant.
I almost like didn't look up the numbers just because
I know that Lebron's are what they are, like they're
you know, even if he's got like one of the
biggest negative narrating swings in the league. I mean, he's
not defending, like, but he's what I want to get
it right, twenty four eight and nine thirty eight percent
from three, making half his shots from the field. You
can definitely watch him and say, like, he's actually not
as good as the numbers suggest. I'm not gonna keep
him off of there. He's played thirty plus games. He's
healthy enough. Durant is the guy if you're concerned about
volume you could bump. But I was not gonna keep
Kevin Durant off of my All Star team either, because
if he had played thirty games, like you said, Anthony
Davis might not be starting, it might it might be him.
Speaker 1: I have Kevin Durant as well, and I thought about
putting him as a starter over Anthony Davis. So he
was gonna make mark. He's just been at both ends
of the floor for the most part, spectacular, and the
Sons have lost the minutes that he He's played is
not a Lebron situation, but it's just when you watch
the Suns, the problem ninety percent of the time is
not Kevin Durant even close to it. I have Jaron
Jackson Junior instead of Lebron. I think the extra self
creation that he has shoulders coupled with what he's been
able to do defensively for them. He's just far more
dynamic overall over these past. He was more dynamic last year.
Now he's even more dynamic than that, and he's on
I also took the stance, not that I took the stance,
but you have to put look what the Memphis Grizzlies
have done this year. How would you not even have
someone in the wild card spot for them? And jaw
might have a case if he had played a little
bit more back. I think Jared Jackson Junior has been
clearly their most valuable player this year.
Speaker 2: I totally agree Jackson did make one of my wild
card spots to bump ahead, and like the wild cards
and the reserves, to me, I'm not like ones better
or worse than the other. Like I just I had
I wanted Lebron and Durant next to each other on
my on my Google docs, So that's what happened. But yeah,
Jared Jackson, it was like, as I got into it
and I was running out of spots, it was like, well,
he there's no way I can leave him off, like
just he so so Wemby and I forget who else
it is, or right at about fifty percent opponent field
goal percentage inside six feet and those got you know,
Wemby's up at like eight or ten or something field
goals defended. Jackson's only at about five, but he's at
forty nine point seven percent. So even though he's not
like always in the rim protecting role, Jackson is still
just like one of the absolute best at it, and
he's super versatile and the the like eleven plus drives
per game. Giannis is the only big who's more efficient
on drives that that takes to the basket that often.
Like Jackson's just like I don't know, we talk about
like most overlooked or most underrated. He's like he's a
no brainer all star for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just I mean he's having twenty three points three
point one stocks per game, and yeah, the threes he's
still below thirty five percent. But you mentioned the drives.
He's getting a foul line basically more than ever, hitting
fifty six point one percent of his twos in addition
to just everything he does on defense. Was the easier
inclusion for me. So you already did. He's he made
one of your wildcards? Who were all the names before
you get to your left? Like that you considered for
a wild cards? All right?
Speaker 2: So and and this is my spot where we like
have to have a conversation because I don't I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's great because I have my final wild card spot.
Okay too, I.
Speaker 2: Don't know what to do with this, so I'll give you.
I'll give you the names that there's two names that
I have like this guy or this guy in the
wildcard spot. Players I also thought about, in no particular order,
James Harden, Alprin Shongoon, Kyrie Irving. That was it might
just need to be Kyrie. We'll see if it's the
Zubats I think needs to be mentioned. Devin Booker was
like a quick look, but then the name recognition did
not hold up to the scoring efficiency this year. So
the last two and the ones I'm stuck on if
Kyrie can't jump in, there are dearon Fox or Demonta Sabonis.
And I texted King's friend fan of mine, King's fan
friend of mine, and just asked, like, who's been better
this year? And this is a friend that is well
aware of of me having called Sabonis the most overrated
player in the league like two years ago now, so
understands my opinion there. And he said, like he thinks
it's Fox, but Sabonis has been really good since Malik
Monk got into the starting lineup because he's the only
guy that can like hit a role man on the team.
So I need we need to talk. If those are
two of your guys you're considering, and maybe it's Kyrie,
we gotta just like hash it out because I I
my very first instincts was Fox. But Sabonis's numbers are
to the point where it's just like, how do you
exclude him? I don't know how even if you know
all the eye tests and my personal biases are just like,
he doesn't actually help the way the numbers say he does.
I just I don't know what to do with it.
Speaker 1: The So in addition I had all the names that
you did, I have Lebron as a consideration, because I
didn't put him as a reserve, and I also have
Norman Powell was.
Speaker 2: On there for Yeah, that's oversight by me. I should
have thought about him too.
Speaker 1: The interesting thing about the kid, So I'll tell you
one of my reserves, which are already up on the screen.
I have Alberinchin gud In there. I think he's been
He's just someone on the rockets needs to make it,
and I think you would hope he'd be a little
bit more efficient on offense, but like their half court
offense isn't great, but he is one of the only
guys that you need to go get a bucket like
you can go through him. You could run the offense
through him for others. He's also been really really good
on defense this year, and so I've remember in the
wild card spot the Fox versus Sabonis thing was interesting
and I had the same dilemma when considering if I
was putting one of them, would it be one or
the other? My gut says it's Fox, but you like
Sabonis is having like a really good efficient season, and
then the Kings when Fox plays without Sabonis grant a
minus three point four points per one hundred possessions with
an offensive rating and the fiftieth percentile flipped that and
Sibonis without Fox, the Kings are like a plus twelve
per one hundred possessions. I don't I just don't know what.
I don't know what to do with that. My eye
says that it should be their plus twelve point one
with an offensive rating in the ninety third percentile. I
don't know. I don't know what to do with that.
Speaker 2: So I think, like, let's get I think the makeup
of the team is such that that stat isn't like
it's crazy that that they don't win the minutes with
Fox on and Sibonis off. But I well, maybe it's
not because like there's no backup bigs on this team
at all. So you take Sabonus off, it's just like
we can't do anything in the paint. You take Fox off,
you still have Monk DeRozan like you still there's still
like creators, I guess. And maybe it's just the makeup
of the team I think is almost built to make
it so, yeah, you can survive without one of those
back quarter or wing guys, but if you take Bonus out,
the replacement behind him is just like Alex lenn and
Trey Lyle, like that's you know, those guys like wouldn't
play at all for like most teams, I think based
on how they've done this year. So I think, so
I want to make sure I get this right. If
you just look at I keep citing it because I
think it's it's my favorite catch all. But on dunksan
threes estimated wins is the cumulative version of EPM, and
Demonasa Bonis ranks fourth in the whole league in estimated
wins added, right behind Jason Tatum, right ahead of Victor
Wembin Yama. Like the guys ahead of him are Sga
Jokic and Tatum, and Sabonis is is fourth, And so
it's like, at what point do I have to just say,
like I'm not smart now that does I think factor
in like replacement level stuff behind you, Like how much
better do you make things than the guys that are
on the floor when you aren't. And the dynamics we
just talked about with the King's rotation is such that, like, yeah,
the gap is enormous between what Sabonis does and what
the guys who back him up are doing. That alone,
though still is like such a persuasive number, like way
ahead of what Fox does, and yet I still am
just like now Fox is a better player, like he
matters more, and I don't. I can't get past it.
Speaker 1: The other thing with Sa Bonus too, is that I
think having him as your center, it forces you to
defend a certain way that we're even when you look
at the Kings's vitals in a lot of areas, it
seems like they well they are, they're outperforming their talent.
But he makes life so much harder on everybody else,
and specifically Keegan Murray would be the one where his
life just get because he's I mean, the King's roster
makes life impossibly hard on Kigan Murray. But I don't
and I don't know how to factor that in at all.
And then the other name that's like kind of standing
out here because you already put Lebron on your reserves.
I don't know if I'm just getting nostalgic because he's
aged forty and I know the age is coming, like
the end is coming. The numbers are good, the Lakers
still aren't great when he's on the court, but like
you watch him, he clearly just doesn't give a fuck
on defense a lot of.
Speaker 2: The time, or he like can't he's like not able
to give a fuck.
Speaker 1: I just I don't know what to do with that.
And it's funny that it seems like, well, we're hung
up on the I'm hung up on three players for
the final spot, Lebron Domas or Diaron Fox. I like
Norman Powell has been really good, uh, and he's doing
some more self creating, but he's just not as dynamic
as a lot of these other Like I would put
Lebron in before Norman Powell. I'd put him in even
before Zoobots, but they definitely deserve honorable mentions. I don't know.
I don't know what to do here.
Speaker 2: What about Kyrie isn't like I think him too is
listen on my long list and I'm going in the
numbers the thing I haven't excluded him.
Speaker 1: He still on my list. The MAVs are winning the
minute he plays without Luca, but like kind of just barely.
And the offense isn't as good as you would expect
it to be.
Speaker 2: But his numbers are incredible too. Yeah, he's so efficient.
I almost like I feel like I gotta have a
it's gotta be Fox or Sabonis for me, and I'll
probably I just I'm gonna go Fox to stay on
brand as basically, But Kyrie is like it's almost it's
it's just as hard to snub Kyrie. It almost like
it's a bad thing. But it's like, well, he's gonna
miss some time with this back injury, like maybe by
the time we get to the All Star Game it'll
be like a little more justifiable. But I think I
think Kyrie is just like objectively a better player probably
than both Fox and Sabonis. So I don't I'm gonna
go Fox just to keep it just just so we
can get out of this. But like Kyrie and Sabonis
are really really tough snubs. The rest of the guys
maybe Shangoon, but the rest of the guys, like Harden
didn't really think that hard about under forty percent from
the field. Zubat's great defense, but like Zubats is not
like a star per se. So I just, yeah, I'll
go Fox, sorry to Sabonus and and and Kyrie in
some order.
Speaker 1: Who do you think between now latching onto Kyrie? But
it's just like it's his role. How do you factor in,
like Okay, he's the but then we didn't. We didn't
take j dubb All. He's playing better defense than Kyrie,
Like Kyrie's roles made it easier by the fact that
Luka Doncic exists.
Speaker 2: To me, like that's true, Like Kyrie gets to Kyrie
is a better second option than like basically anybody but
I and the Like, if Kyrie Irving is your best
offensive player, I think there's a really good chance your offense,
all things be equal, is good, right, Like I I
just I think he's still he's not what he was,
but but he's still just an insanely efficient jump shooter,
great ball handler. Maybe that passing isn't like what you'd
want from a true like offensive alpha, but I don't know.
It's hard for me. It's hard for me to just
like discount the how good he is, as like A said,
I don't know, Yeah, you're next to Lucas so exkews everything.
But but like he's just he's a number one offensive option.
I think, like at least at least in so far
inasmuch as like Fox is to be, you know, to compare.
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna go with Kyrie Leaven Lebron off
feels wrong though, literally do that, But.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had to have Lebron, but I'll admit it's more.
It was more maybe sentimental. You know, the numbers are
good enough, like counting wise.
Speaker 1: That spot before that, I should just be allowed to say, Okay,
I'm sentimental for Lebron, so we're gonna put him and here,
I just he's individually he's been really really good on offense,
but he's just such a net negative on the defensive
end right now, I just don't know what to do.
I think I'm gonna go with Kyrie.
Speaker 2: I think I love that because then it's sorry to Sabonis,
who doesn't make either of our teams. But that way
I get Fox, we get Kyrie on it, and and.
Speaker 1: I think it would be best. I'm gonna determinate by
viewing in a vacuum. You're gonna answer the question for me. Kyrie, Sabonis,
Fox or Lebron has to be your best player on
a whatever team. Which best player gives you the chance
of having.
Speaker 2: The best team Right now, man, he has to be
your best player. So it Sabonis is out because that's
like my main knock on him. He can't be my
knee jerk reaction is Lebron, but there's not really a
statistical case to support that.
Speaker 1: I would say the minutes over Kyrie, right.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Lebron's been healthy relatively, I mean he had
that many like that, get right, hiatus, but he will
probably by the time people hear this because Kyrie's missing time.
Speaker 1: Now, God, this is so tough. I honestly, I don't
know what the new here. Grant I'm struggling told you
that this was gonna be tough. So Kyrie's at like
one seventy minutes and Lebron's at eleven fifty. It's just
that's not a big enough difference for me. I'm gonna
go with Kyrie do it, and it's tough. You know.
What's also excwing me is that the Lakers have been
better that game against the Mavericks where Kyrie Mlugo didn't play, notwithstanding,
and then like the Mavericks have been sort of like
even dating back because they weren't playing well this pastime
when Luca went down with the calf injury. Like Tyrus,
I don't feel great about this. You could go with either,
for I'm gonna go with Kyrie as my final spot.
Speaker 2: All right, so you want to recap here. I want
to start with the east Olough first.
Speaker 1: This is the east. My starters are Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brunton,
Jason Tatum, Jannis Attentakupo, Karl Anthony Towns. My reserves are
in the back court Kate Cunningham and Darius Garland. My
front court reserves are Jalen Brown, Evan Mobley, Pascal Siakam.
My two wild cards are LaMelo Ball and Trey Young.
Speaker 2: All right. My East starters beginning with the guards are
Jalen Brunson and Darius Garland. My front court Jason Tatum,
Jannis out of Takombo and Karl Anthony Towns. Reserve guards
Donovan Mitchell, Derek White reserve front court, Evan Mobley, Franz Wagner,
Kid Cunningham.
Speaker 1: Stretched there.
Speaker 2: My two wild cards are Trey Young and Tyrese Halliburn.
Speaker 1: In the west starting I have Shay Gildas, Alexander and
Steph Curry. In the front court, I have Anthony Davis,
Victor Women Yama and Nicola Jokich. Not a single wing
in the starting hete love to see it. Actually reserves
backcourt I have Anthony Edwards and Luka Doncic reserves for
the front court. I have Jalen Williams, Jared Jackson Junior
and Kevin Durant. My wild cards in the West are
Alprin Shangun and Kyrie Irving Alper By the way, Alprin Shangoon.
I haven't seen him mentioned a ton among all stars.
I think he's having a really good year. It's just
the Rockets have so many dudes, and I don't know
that the offense is built for him to be a
lot more efficient than he has been.
Speaker 2: I think that's all fair. So my starting West all
stars at the guards or at the backcourt spots Shay Gilders, Alexander,
Steph Curry, Nicole Jokich, Victor Wemben Yama and Anthony Davis
in the front court. My reserve backcourt players Luka Doncic,
Anthony Edwards reserve front court Jalen Williams, Lebron James, Kevin
Durant wild card number one, Jaren Jackson Junior wildcard number two.
After much debate, I still feel terrible about it. Is
darreon Fox.
Speaker 1: That is that was a brutal discussion. I still I
feel terrable about it.
Speaker 2: I knew that last West spot was gonna be because
there was like five guys and we just we just
agonized over it. Everybody heard it that that last one
is fortunately fortunately, like there'll probably be an injury or two,
so like Kyrie will get in or Kyrie will probably
get voted in or whatever. Uh, and then we'll we'll
at least get like three or four of the five
that we couldn't choose between.
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering too because of the new setup with
the All Star Game. So there's Franz Wagner. Let's say
he makes it even though he wouldn't. If there's gonna be,
can you just name a West guy instead of going
into the East. I probably won't have deserving players.
Speaker 2: That's it. I don't know. I don't know if that's
how that's gonna work. Hopefully they pull from the West
because the snubs there were much much more feel I
guess yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel pretty bad about not having Tyrese Maxi, Damian
Lillard on my bro Like, I don't feel terrible about
not having them, So I feel bad about SA bonus
Fox and Lebron not making my that's some bonus Fox
and Lebron didn't make it all West like the West
all that just feels icky. And I hope Lebron makes
it just because I'm I'm a sucker for nostalgia. And
he's the numbers. You said the numbers before that's still
kind of absurd.
Speaker 2: They're enough, you know, and he's gonnall he'll make it
like there's no if this might be what is he
maybe one more year after this too, where it's like
then then it'll be like, oh, he actually doesn't deserve
it at all, and he still might make it. This
is like the last one probably where you can at
least make the case beyond sentimentality.
Speaker 1: There's I think it's just if you didn't watch him,
if you only watched him, not even cursory, if he
just didn't watch him on defense, I think he would
just be also.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, the points, rebounds, assists, and like it's
it looks good, you know, scoring, efficiency is good.
Speaker 1: Offense looks good. People. He's a little slower than he used,
he's fucking forty years old. He still scoring twenty five
plus points a game.
Speaker 2: That's okay, yeah right right, and like you know, just
mak it like he still is like a brilliant passer.
He still has all like the brain is still there.
It's just like on defense specifically, the body is like
not willing. That's that's really the clearest thing so far
this year.
Speaker 1: Do you have anything else or are you ready to
take us out of here? This podcast is under two hours.
Speaker 2: It feels really really solid job by us, especially since
we spent the last what twenty five minutes decide one spot.
Speaker 1: I will say this is one of those podcasts I
spent more time prepping for it, even if it doesn't
sound like then we did recording it, because it's just
these whenever it comes to rankings or picking all star teams,
I agonize over it. It's the shit doesn't matter, and
yet here I am.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we just want to get it right, you know.
And and good news we did in disputable.
Speaker 1: Different rosters, but they're somehow both one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: They're all right.
Speaker 1: I see. The move would be if I replaced the
Jared Jackson junior with the bonus, because then all the
people that we axed over would have made it in
the WAFT.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably it. I think I think we need
a third person on here to just do a completely
different West group. This was great. I think who knows
how much is this is gonna change? Like we still
got you know what, close to a month before the
All Star Game, so we're.
Speaker 1: Not doing it. This is a star.
Speaker 2: Yeah hopefully, Yeah, we'll see. I mean, if Tyrus Aliburn
has another terrible stretch, I will deeply regret that pick. Anyway,
thanks everybody for listening. If you watch this on on YouTube,
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That would be great. Wherever you're getting your podcast, Tell
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always with a shout out to Frankin Lakina an apology
to Jared Allen